If the "specifications" were narrowed down to that level (hobbyist), what would be the
"Table Saw of Choice"?

Well, I don't think there can be one tablesaw of choice. People's
hobbies are different, their shops are different, probably several
other factors which would dictate what saw is best for a particular
individual. That's why it's good to discuss the various options and
let the individual select which is best or most appropriate for him or
her.

The different woodworking magazines/websites and other similar media
have, also, done these comparisons and reviews (for us?... to, at
least, reference), within the parameters they choose as important and/
or significent, and list the results of their reviews and
evaluations. I would think their methodology is fairly dependable,
too.

Sonny

Larry Blanchard wrote in news:jkfmbi$avm$1
@speranza.aioe.org:


Actually, they haven't been making *anything* for quite some time.
Somebody else bought the name and has applied it to a line of "consumer
grade" (and that's being polite) tools.


A consumption good is something that is consumed/destroyed in the process
of using it. Welding rods and hamburgers are consumption goods. Guess the
manufacturers see their "consumer tools" the same way.

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

Pat Barber wrote:
Both of those saws are considered some of the better ones.

The 1981 is probably a more preferred year but there is
virtually no difference in a Unisaw built in 1939 to 1995.


What are some of the ways has the Unisaw went downhill since then?

"Sonny" wrote in message
...

If the "specifications" were narrowed down to that level (hobbyist), what
would be the
"Table Saw of Choice"?

Well, I don't think there can be one tablesaw of choice. People's
hobbies are different, their shops are different, probably several
other factors which would dictate what saw is best for a particular
individual. That's why it's good to discuss the various options and
let the individual select which is best or most appropriate for him or
her.

The different woodworking magazines/websites and other similar media
have, also, done these comparisons and reviews (for us?... to, at
least, reference), within the parameters they choose as important and/
or significent, and list the results of their reviews and
evaluations. I would think their methodology is fairly dependable,
too.

Sonny

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^

Your input is appreciated and I have "googled" the issue.
There are several individuals posting here (and abpw) whose expertise seems
obvious (to me at least).
I subscribe to: Fine Woodworking, Woodcraft, Wood, Woodworker's Journal, and
American Woodworker and enjoy each magazine.
I am persuaded, however, that most of the reviews presented by those
publications are somewhat biased toward advertisers (and in some cases,
toward their sponsors like Woodcraft and Rockler)
Having become reasonably familiar with the type of work in which some of the
members of the rec.ww engage, I have come to rely on their judgment more
than that of the magazines.
By considering my question and the individual who might respond, I believe I
can have more information upon which to make a decision regarding a
particular purchase.
To me, in the above regard, there is never too much information.

And a 10" Cabinet Saw is a 10" Cabinet Saw no matter the *size* of the shop
in which it is serving.
So it seems to me that any 10" Cabinet Saw short of an industrial model
should be under consideration.
That sort of rules out the Altendorf, SCM, etc.
Having narrowed it down to that, I was seeking input.
Prior to the discussion I would have completely ruled out a Grizzly
but........now..........
The saw I have now is a Delta 10" Tilting Arbor saw; a hybrid. It has served
me well but does have some shortcomings, chiefly among which is the dust
collection.
My son wants it. I'm not opposed to letting him have it.

Questions have been posed by the previous input:
1. Is a Grizzly (foreign made) better than a Powermatic or Unisaw?
2. What features do others consider most important? (never mind the fence,
it can be purchased separately if necessary)
I don't dismiss anyone's suggestions.

Max

Max wrote:

Questions have been posed by the previous input:
1. Is a Grizzly (foreign made) better than a Powermatic or Unisaw?
2. What features do others consider most important? (never mind the
fence, it can be purchased separately if necessary)
I don't dismiss anyone's suggestions.

Max


I have been pondering your question since before you posted it. Here's
an aspect you may not have considered: When you say "Is it better?", do
you include quality control issues? Grizzly appears to rank 3rd in that
category among it and Powermatic and Delta. I could be totally wrong.
That is just my perception. Also, with Delta and Powermatic, you get
the impression that parts will always be available--I'm not
as confident regarding that with Grizzly (do they even sell parts?) I
think these factors are part of a "better" saw. I'm looking forward to
following the discussion.

Bill

On 3/22/2012 4:12 PM, Max wrote:

Questions have been posed by the previous input:
1. Is a Grizzly (foreign made) better than a Powermatic or Unisaw?
2. What features do others consider most important? (never mind the
fence, it can be purchased separately if necessary)
I don't dismiss anyone's suggestions.

Max

My shop:
https://picasaweb.google.com/1135996...WPv5Hh9YPF4wE#

or:
http://tinyurl.com/3syznz8

Max

On Thu, 22 Mar 2012 16:12:17 -0600, "Max"
wrote:




Questions have been posed by the previous input:
1. Is a Grizzly (foreign made) better than a Powermatic or Unisaw?
2. What features do others consider most important? (never mind the fence,
it can be purchased separately if necessary)
I don't dismiss anyone's suggestions.

Max

I don't think Grizzly is a better saw, but it maybe a better value,
but that depends on your use and needs and thickness of your wallet.
Grizzly tools seem to need a little more tweaking at setup than some
other brands, but they can be cheaper and just as good at cutting
wood.

Comes down to the same Chevy vs. Ford argument that has been around
for decades. I have a Delta, but would not hesitate to buy Jet or
Grizzly, or General, or a few other brands. Even if you make the
final choice by the color of the cabinet, it will be a saw that does
the job for you.

"Max" wrote in
b.com:

Your input is appreciated and I have "googled" the issue.
There are several individuals posting here (and abpw) whose expertise
seems obvious (to me at least).
I subscribe to: Fine Woodworking, Woodcraft, Wood, Woodworker's
Journal, and American Woodworker and enjoy each magazine.
I am persuaded, however, that most of the reviews presented by those
publications are somewhat biased toward advertisers (and in some
cases, toward their sponsors like Woodcraft and Rockler)
Having become reasonably familiar with the type of work in which some
of the members of the rec.ww engage, I have come to rely on their
judgment more than that of the magazines.
By considering my question and the individual who might respond, I
believe I can have more information upon which to make a decision
regarding a particular purchase.
To me, in the above regard, there is never too much information.

And a 10" Cabinet Saw is a 10" Cabinet Saw no matter the *size* of the
shop in which it is serving.
So it seems to me that any 10" Cabinet Saw short of an industrial
model should be under consideration.
That sort of rules out the Altendorf, SCM, etc.
Having narrowed it down to that, I was seeking input.
Prior to the discussion I would have completely ruled out a Grizzly
but........now..........
The saw I have now is a Delta 10" Tilting Arbor saw; a hybrid. It has
served me well but does have some shortcomings, chiefly among which is
the dust collection.
My son wants it. I'm not opposed to letting him have it.

Questions have been posed by the previous input:
1. Is a Grizzly (foreign made) better than a Powermatic or Unisaw?
2. What features do others consider most important? (never mind the
fence, it can be purchased separately if necessary)
I don't dismiss anyone's suggestions.

Max

On my Ridgid, the power switch mounts to the fence rail. This is rather
inconvenient when I'm making a cut and have to shut the saw off in the
middle of it. A switch that mounts on the body with a wide paddle for a
knee kick would be nice to have. (There's probably an aftermarket option
to add just that.)

I haven't been happy with most blade guards and splitters. The ones I've
made extensive use of mount far behind the blade and are thus subject to
free play that can put undesired pressure on the board. Newer saws have
riving knives mounted directly behind the blade (so they'll move up and
down with it) and that seems to be a much better solution.

These are two of the things that came up last night as I was sawing.
Some of the wood wanted to close up on the blade, and one did so so much
that I had to shut the saw off and back it out of the cut. The
splitter/riving knife would have prevented the closing of the kerf, while
being able to access the switch easily would have made shutting the saw
off much less risky.

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

On 3/22/2012 8:17 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Thu, 22 Mar 2012 16:12:17 -0600,
wrote:




Questions have been posed by the previous input:
1. Is a Grizzly (foreign made) better than a Powermatic or Unisaw?
2. What features do others consider most important? (never mind the fence,
it can be purchased separately if necessary)
I don't dismiss anyone's suggestions.

Max

I don't think Grizzly is a better saw, but it maybe a better value,
but that depends on your use and needs and thickness of your wallet.
Grizzly tools seem to need a little more tweaking at setup than some
other brands, but they can be cheaper and just as good at cutting
wood.

Comes down to the same Chevy vs. Ford argument that has been around
for decades. I have a Delta, but would not hesitate to buy Jet or
Grizzly, or General, or a few other brands. Even if you make the
final choice by the color of the cabinet, it will be a saw that does
the job for you.

Googling "#1 rated table saw" resulted in a bias toward Powermatic
PM2000. I found a couple reviews that strongly praised the machine.
Unisaw and General were also highly recommended.

I tend to think that a saw that needs "more tweaking" hasn't been
manufactured to the same quality standard as those that don't.
Certainly, if price is a high priority and the saw can be made to
perform satisfactorily then the decision is made.
But my concern would be that other areas (bearing quality and machining
to close tolerances) might be neglected as well.

Max

On Thu, 22 Mar 2012 20:39:13 -0600, Max wrote:



Googling "#1 rated table saw" resulted in a bias toward Powermatic
PM2000. I found a couple reviews that strongly praised the machine.
Unisaw and General were also highly recommended.

I guess you do get what you pay for then.



I tend to think that a saw that needs "more tweaking" hasn't been
manufactured to the same quality standard as those that don't.
Certainly, if price is a high priority and the saw can be made to
perform satisfactorily then the decision is made.
But my concern would be that other areas (bearing quality and machining
to close tolerances) might be neglected as well.

Max

Valid point, of course, but I bet 99.9% of us would not wear out those
bearings in a home hobby use and no one could tell what saw the finish
product came from.

What we don't usually know though, is who supplied the bearings. They
may or may not have come from the same factory. Over the years, I've
seen the same items made on the same line in the same factory, but
with different brand labels and wildly different prices. And the
consumer will swear that Brand X is better than Brand Y.

On 03/22/2012 07:39 PM, Max wrote:
On 3/22/2012 8:17 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Thu, 22 Mar 2012 16:12:17 -0600,
wrote:




Questions have been posed by the previous input:
1. Is a Grizzly (foreign made) better than a Powermatic or Unisaw?
2. What features do others consider most important? (never mind the
fence,
it can be purchased separately if necessary)
I don't dismiss anyone's suggestions.

Max

I don't think Grizzly is a better saw, but it maybe a better value,
but that depends on your use and needs and thickness of your wallet.
Grizzly tools seem to need a little more tweaking at setup than some
other brands, but they can be cheaper and just as good at cutting
wood.

Comes down to the same Chevy vs. Ford argument that has been around
for decades. I have a Delta, but would not hesitate to buy Jet or
Grizzly, or General, or a few other brands. Even if you make the
final choice by the color of the cabinet, it will be a saw that does
the job for you.

Googling "#1 rated table saw" resulted in a bias toward Powermatic
PM2000. I found a couple reviews that strongly praised the machine.
Unisaw and General were also highly recommended.

I tend to think that a saw that needs "more tweaking" hasn't been
manufactured to the same quality standard as those that don't.
Certainly, if price is a high priority and the saw can be made to
perform satisfactorily then the decision is made.
But my concern would be that other areas (bearing quality and machining
to close tolerances) might be neglected as well.

Max

Not sure where the "tweaking" evaluation comes from, but the Griz
equipment I have required none - G0555 bandsaw, GO505 12.5" planer and
GO452 6" jointer. I did have to "tweak" a little when I installed the
riser kit on the bandsaw, but only about an hour or two including the
install.

It is certainly no more "tweaking" and possibly less than some of the
other equipment I have.


--
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure,the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"
-Winston Churchill

In article cfd74a9c-f01b-44fc-bdde-
, says...

If the "specifications" were narrowed down to that level (hobbyist), what would be the
"Table Saw of Choice"?

Well, I don't think there can be one tablesaw of choice. People's
hobbies are different, their shops are different, probably several
other factors which would dictate what saw is best for a particular
individual. That's why it's good to discuss the various options and
let the individual select which is best or most appropriate for him or
her.

The different woodworking magazines/websites and other similar media
have, also, done these comparisons and reviews (for us?... to, at
least, reference), within the parameters they choose as important and/
or significent, and list the results of their reviews and
evaluations. I would think their methodology is fairly dependable,
too.

When one says "hobbyist" the question arises "hobbyist doing what" and
"with what budget". If Bill Gates decided to take up woodworking as a
hobby he could just buy Delta. Not tools from Delta, the whole company.

J. Clarke wrote:

When one says "hobbyist" the question arises "hobbyist doing what" and
"with what budget". If Bill Gates decided to take up woodworking as a
hobby he could just buy Delta. Not tools from Delta, the whole company.


I wonder if he knows the difference between a muntin and a mullion? : )

On 3/22/2012 10:07 PM, Doug Winterburn wrote:
On 03/22/2012 07:39 PM, Max wrote:
On 3/22/2012 8:17 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Thu, 22 Mar 2012 16:12:17 -0600,
wrote:




Questions have been posed by the previous input:
1. Is a Grizzly (foreign made) better than a Powermatic or Unisaw?
2. What features do others consider most important? (never mind the
fence,
it can be purchased separately if necessary)
I don't dismiss anyone's suggestions.

Max

I don't think Grizzly is a better saw, but it maybe a better value,
but that depends on your use and needs and thickness of your wallet.
Grizzly tools seem to need a little more tweaking at setup than some
other brands, but they can be cheaper and just as good at cutting
wood.

Comes down to the same Chevy vs. Ford argument that has been around
for decades. I have a Delta, but would not hesitate to buy Jet or
Grizzly, or General, or a few other brands. Even if you make the
final choice by the color of the cabinet, it will be a saw that does
the job for you.

Googling "#1 rated table saw" resulted in a bias toward Powermatic
PM2000. I found a couple reviews that strongly praised the machine.
Unisaw and General were also highly recommended.

I tend to think that a saw that needs "more tweaking" hasn't been
manufactured to the same quality standard as those that don't.
Certainly, if price is a high priority and the saw can be made to
perform satisfactorily then the decision is made.
But my concern would be that other areas (bearing quality and machining
to close tolerances) might be neglected as well.

Max

Not sure where the "tweaking" evaluation comes from, but the Griz equipment I
have required none - G0555 bandsaw, GO505 12.5" planer and GO452 6" jointer. I
did have to "tweak" a little when I installed the riser kit on the bandsaw, but
only about an hour or two including the install.

It is certainly no more "tweaking" and possibly less than some of the other
equipment I have.

I have three Grizzly machines:

http://www.grizzly.com/products/15-Planer/G0453
http://www.grizzly.com/products/2-HP...ollector/G0440
http://www.grizzly.com/products/Heav...od-Lathe/G1495

All three are excellent machines and none have required any "tweaking" to get
them to operate as designed. My father has several Grizzly machines as well:

A 15" planer that is no longer offered, but is virtually identical to models
still available from Delta, General, and Shop Fox.
http://www.grizzly.com/products/8-x-...ile-Base/G0656
http://www.grizzly.com/products/1-1-2-HP-Shaper/G1035
http://www.grizzly.com/products/14-E...Bandsaw/G0555X
http://www.grizzly.com/products/2-HP...peller/G1029Z2

(Not completely sure if the dust collector is the same model)

I've never heard him complain one iota about the quality of any of those
machines, though I have used them all and I will say that I'm not too enamored
of the band saw or the dust collector (probably because I have machines that
are of a much better design). Unfortunately, I don't have any hands-on
experience with any Grizzly tablesaws, other than having inspected a G1023 many
years ago (over 10) at the Grizzly store in Springfield MO, prior to choosing
the Delta Unisaw instead, mainly because the Griz didn't have a 52" fence and I
much preferred the Delta Unifence to whatever the Grizzly was using at the
time. My sense is that Grizzly's quality and fit and finish has actually
improved quite a bit since then.

--
Free bad advice available here.
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

On Thu, 22 Mar 2012 20:07:39 -0700, Doug Winterburn
wrote:


Not sure where the "tweaking" evaluation comes from, but the Griz
equipment I have required none - G0555 bandsaw, GO505 12.5" planer and
GO452 6" jointer. I did have to "tweak" a little when I installed the
riser kit on the bandsaw, but only about an hour or two including the
install.

It is certainly no more "tweaking" and possibly less than some of the
other equipment I have.

It comes from reading this group for a number of years. I see more
people having to do little things on Grizzly more often than other
brands. Not that the others are perfect.

On 3/22/2012 9:39 PM, Puckdropper wrote:
wrote in
b.com:

Your input is appreciated and I have "googled" the issue.
There are several individuals posting here (and abpw) whose expertise
seems obvious (to me at least).
I subscribe to: Fine Woodworking, Woodcraft, Wood, Woodworker's
Journal, and American Woodworker and enjoy each magazine.
I am persuaded, however, that most of the reviews presented by those
publications are somewhat biased toward advertisers (and in some
cases, toward their sponsors like Woodcraft and Rockler)
Having become reasonably familiar with the type of work in which some
of the members of the rec.ww engage, I have come to rely on their
judgment more than that of the magazines.
By considering my question and the individual who might respond, I
believe I can have more information upon which to make a decision
regarding a particular purchase.
To me, in the above regard, there is never too much information.

And a 10" Cabinet Saw is a 10" Cabinet Saw no matter the *size* of the
shop in which it is serving.
So it seems to me that any 10" Cabinet Saw short of an industrial
model should be under consideration.
That sort of rules out the Altendorf, SCM, etc.
Having narrowed it down to that, I was seeking input.
Prior to the discussion I would have completely ruled out a Grizzly
but........now..........
The saw I have now is a Delta 10" Tilting Arbor saw; a hybrid. It has
served me well but does have some shortcomings, chiefly among which is
the dust collection.
My son wants it. I'm not opposed to letting him have it.

Questions have been posed by the previous input:
1. Is a Grizzly (foreign made) better than a Powermatic or Unisaw?
2. What features do others consider most important? (never mind the
fence, it can be purchased separately if necessary)
I don't dismiss anyone's suggestions.

Max

On my Ridgid, the power switch mounts to the fence rail. This is rather
inconvenient when I'm making a cut and have to shut the saw off in the
middle of it. A switch that mounts on the body with a wide paddle for a
knee kick would be nice to have. (There's probably an aftermarket option
to add just that.)
Is the switch location a bigger problem than not having enough power to
complete the cut?


I haven't been happy with most blade guards and splitters. The ones I've
made extensive use of mount far behind the blade and are thus subject to
free play that can put undesired pressure on the board. Newer saws have
riving knives mounted directly behind the blade (so they'll move up and
down with it) and that seems to be a much better solution.

These are two of the things that came up last night as I was sawing.
Some of the wood wanted to close up on the blade, and one did so so much
that I had to shut the saw off and back it out of the cut. The
splitter/riving knife would have prevented the closing of the kerf, while
being able to access the switch easily would have made shutting the saw
off much less risky.

If you have a saw with enough hp this is much less of an issue. I have
found however that a splitter can indeed create a situation that would
require you to shut down the saw and repeat the procedure you described.

A splitter prevents the work from pinching the blade if the work closes
back up after the cut. It is not at all unusual for the work to open up
after being cut, the opposite effect. When that happens the piece being
cut becomes trapped between the splitter and the fence. Even with my
cabinet saw and when using a splitter the work will become jammed and
stopping is required.

Solution, buy better wood. ;~(









Puckdropper

On Fri, 23 Mar 2012 05:57:42 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On Thu, 22 Mar 2012 20:07:39 -0700, Doug Winterburn
wrote:


Not sure where the "tweaking" evaluation comes from, but the Griz
equipment I have required none - G0555 bandsaw, GO505 12.5" planer and
GO452 6" jointer. I did have to "tweak" a little when I installed the
riser kit on the bandsaw, but only about an hour or two including the
install.

It is certainly no more "tweaking" and possibly less than some of the
other equipment I have.

It comes from reading this group for a number of years. I see more
people having to do little things on Grizzly more often than other
brands. Not that the others are perfect.

That's because they read all the tips about Griz here and all want to
make the saw even better. If tips abounded for the Unisaw, these
folks would tweak those to death, too. My Grizzes (bandsaw, planer,
DC, trim router) needed no extra tweaking, though I did install link
belts on the bandsaw about 6 mos later, and it's smoother now.

What I do see is that all machines need about the same amount of
tweaking, no matter what their original cost. The pricier ones may
have been through a couple extra use tests, so the small amount of
deburring which happens during setup has already been performed, so it
feels smoother to the new owner the first time it's used.

I choose Griz because they're considerably less expensive while being
as good, or nearly as good, as tools priced twice the price. That's
value. I hear their CS is good, but I've never had the need to call
'em.

I like Makitas, too, and ordered their SP6000K1 plunge saw yesterday.

--
Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens.
-- Jimi Hendrix

"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 22 Mar 2012 20:07:39 -0700, Doug Winterburn
wrote:


Not sure where the "tweaking" evaluation comes from, but the Griz
equipment I have required none - G0555 bandsaw, GO505 12.5" planer and
GO452 6" jointer. I did have to "tweak" a little when I installed the
riser kit on the bandsaw, but only about an hour or two including the
install.

It is certainly no more "tweaking" and possibly less than some of the
other equipment I have.

It comes from reading this group for a number of years. I see more
people having to do little things on Grizzly more often than other
brands. Not that the others are perfect.

Some times I wonder if people are less inclined to voice issues after
spending money on "more elite" items, e.g., hard to admit that the $2X item
was no better than the $1X item though it is better than the $.5X item.
This is along the lines of the old joke about how if you want to DRIVE a
Rolls Royce buy two of them so people don't notice while one is in the
shop...

Another thing I've noticed after reading reviews in various places is that
if you read between the lines the problems are often with the user rather
than the product. Having helped many people with computers, bicycles,
tools, and other things over the years a common factor with problems is the
nut running the thing... ;~) Sure, there are times when there really is a
problem with the item... but even then it often stems from the user's prior
activities.

In my case, my stationary tool "problems" generally stemmed from not buying
big enough tools the first time. If I'd purchased the 8" DJ-20 jointer first
I wouldn't have had problems with the 6" jointer tipping over as I ran long
heavy stock over it. If I'd purchased the 3 HP cabinet saw first I wouldn't
have had problems with the tiny table, crappy fence, and jerky starts of the
little Delta bench top saw...

I've had minor "real" issues. One was the Delta hollow chisel mortiser where
the depth stop handle broke off. Turns out many of them break off if the
parts suppliers "most popular" ratings are used as a guide. I had a problem
with the DJ-20 where the rabbeting shelf didn't fit as the surface that
mates to the jointer itself had been ground back too far. Delta sent out a
new shelf over night...

Shipping damage by careless carriers is another issue... seems they don't
understand that fork lifts are for lifting from the bottom, not for sticking
the forks through the crate like a bale of hay... It took 3 DJ-20 deliveries
to get one that wasn't mangled in some way. All three crates had been
pierced by fork lifts. The first one had also been dropped--broken pieces of
cast iron fell out upon lifting the jointer from the crate. The second one
the fence had been t-boned by a fork lift and a corner of the base was
dented in from rough handling. The third delivery only the crate was
damaged... I wonder if they figured out they had a problem with their
shipping people?

John

On 3/23/2012 12:08 AM, Steve Turner wrote:
A 15" planer that is no longer offered, but is virtually identical to models
still available from Delta, General, and Shop Fox.
http://www.grizzly.com/products/8-x-...ile-Base/G0656
http://www.grizzly.com/products/1-1-2-HP-Shaper/G1035
http://www.grizzly.com/products/14-E...Bandsaw/G0555X
http://www.grizzly.com/products/2-HP...peller/G1029Z2

(Not completely sure if the dust collector is the same model)

I've never heard him complain one iota about the quality of any of those
machines, though I have used them all and I will say that I'm not too enamored
of the band saw or the dust collector (probably because I have machines that
are of a much better design). Unfortunately, I don't have any hands-on

Just curious, what did you not like about the 14" Bandsaw? I'm currently
considering the 14 or a 17 as secondary machine for a semi-permanent
specialty task. Don't need a Laguna but need something true and reliable
to eliminate blade change-out between tasks.

--
Digger
Bob O'Dell

I wouldn't say the Unisaw has gone down hill.

The management of the company has gone down hill.

The manufacturing process has gone down hill or left the country.

The cast iron casting process was moved off shore due to environmental
concerns.

Cost accounting running a assemble line has gone down hill.

The small cabinet shop is struggling their ass off which reduces
demand for the product.

Many factors has made the equipment design suffer, but mostly people
with bad ideas has caused the demise of quality equipment made here
or any where else. "Good Enough" is the new quality product.

The Unisaw can't be blamed for it's problems.

I don't say this to annoy other folks but a 40 year old Unisaw
remains head and shoulders above anything else currently being sold.

Remember, the Unisaw was designed in 1938. Do you have anything you
own that was designed and built in 1939 and still works ?

This is strictly my opinion and I'm sure many will disagree.



On 3/22/2012 3:06 PM, Bill wrote:

What are some of the ways has the Unisaw went downhill since then?

On 3/23/2012 8:46 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:

I like Makitas, too, and ordered their SP6000K1 plunge saw yesterday.


Congratulations sir!



--
Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens.
-- Jimi Hendrix

On 3/23/2012 7:46 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Fri, 23 Mar 2012 05:57:42 -0400, Ed wrote:

On Thu, 22 Mar 2012 20:07:39 -0700, Doug Winterburn
wrote:


Not sure where the "tweaking" evaluation comes from, but the Griz
equipment I have required none - G0555 bandsaw, GO505 12.5" planer and
GO452 6" jointer. I did have to "tweak" a little when I installed the
riser kit on the bandsaw, but only about an hour or two including the
install.

It is certainly no more "tweaking" and possibly less than some of the
other equipment I have.

It comes from reading this group for a number of years. I see more
people having to do little things on Grizzly more often than other
brands. Not that the others are perfect.

That's because they read all the tips about Griz here and all want to
make the saw even better. If tips abounded for the Unisaw, these
folks would tweak those to death, too. My Grizzes (bandsaw, planer,
DC, trim router) needed no extra tweaking, though I did install link
belts on the bandsaw about 6 mos later, and it's smoother now.

What I do see is that all machines need about the same amount of
tweaking, no matter what their original cost. The pricier ones may
have been through a couple extra use tests, so the small amount of
deburring which happens during setup has already been performed, so it
feels smoother to the new owner the first time it's used.

Not that any of my machines (Grizzlies included) have needed any significant
amount of "tweaking", but I'm a tweaker by nature (blush), so if it ain't
perfect I wanna fix it, and my Unisaw and Minimax bandsaw have received just as
much "tweaking" as any of my Grizzly machines.

--
Free bad advice available here.
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

On 3/23/2012 9:45 AM, Digger wrote:
On 3/23/2012 12:08 AM, Steve Turner wrote:
A 15" planer that is no longer offered, but is virtually identical to models
still available from Delta, General, and Shop Fox.
http://www.grizzly.com/products/8-x-...ile-Base/G0656
http://www.grizzly.com/products/1-1-2-HP-Shaper/G1035
http://www.grizzly.com/products/14-E...Bandsaw/G0555X
http://www.grizzly.com/products/2-HP...peller/G1029Z2

(Not completely sure if the dust collector is the same model)

I've never heard him complain one iota about the quality of any of those
machines, though I have used them all and I will say that I'm not too enamored
of the band saw or the dust collector (probably because I have machines that
are of a much better design). Unfortunately, I don't have any hands-on

Just curious, what did you not like about the 14" Bandsaw? I'm currently
considering the 14 or a 17 as secondary machine for a semi-permanent
specialty task. Don't need a Laguna but need something true and reliable
to eliminate blade change-out between tasks.

It just doesn't seem very sturdy to me. Keep in mind, I'm spoiled by my
Minimax bandsaw, which is built like a tank, but nonetheless I felt like with
little effort and without significant cost they could have done a better job of
designing things, like the height adjustment mechanism that carries the upper
blade guides. It's been several years since I used that saw, so my memory is a
bit dim, but as I recall that whole mechanism just kinda swings in the wind.
The drive wheels are also very lightweight, and there's a fair amount of sheet
metal in the product that could have been sturdied up quite a bit. The whole
things just kinda rattles when it's running.

I should probably clarify that my father's saw is perhaps 8-10 years old, so
I'm not completely sure it's that exact model I referenced in the link, but his
does have a closed base and that's the only closed base model that Grizzly
currently has listed. They may have made improvements to the saw since then,
or it may be a completely different and newer model. As I recall, he didn't
pay anywhere near $800 for his; I think it was closer to $475. I'll ask him if
he can give me a specific model number.

--
Free bad advice available here.
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

On Mar 22, 5:12*pm, "Max" wrote:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Questions have been posed by the previous input:
1. Is a Grizzly (foreign made) better than a Powermatic or Unisaw?
2. What features do others consider most important? *(never mind the fence,
it can be purchased separately if necessary)
I don't dismiss anyone's suggestions.

Max

I'll frame this it the time frame when I bought my Grizzly G1023S:

1) When I bought my saw, in about 2000, I believe it was a better saw
than the Delta Unisaws being sold at that time. As I previously
stated, I was pretty much predisposed to the Unisaw based on
experience from 25-35 years earlier with older Unisaws. When I
started looking at the new Unisaws I was disappointed. Is it a better
machine than the Powermatic? No. However, at the time in order to
buy a Unisaw off of the floor I was going to have to buy it with and
extension table that I did not have room for at the time; and it was
going to cost about $1,400 (I was prepared to pay that amount until I
saw the "new" saws. The Powermatic was $2,000 and out of my price
range. As I recall I paid about $875 for my saw plus $75 shipping.
In terms of quality, price and utility I considered it a better value.

2) I wanted a good solid cabinet saw to replace my 25 year old
Craftsman contractor's saw. I wanted cast iron tables, good fit an
finish, at least 3HP, heavy trunnions smooth multiple belt drive and a
strong and reliable fence. It met or exceeded all expectations. As
far as buying a saw and replacing the fence with something like a
Biesmeyer - that was not something I even considered. The Grizzly/
Shop Fox Classic is becoming a classic. It is not a Biesmeyer clone
but similar. I have read several fence reviews before and after my
purchase and it always hangs in there with Biesmeyer and others. On
of the magazines, a few years ago, even featured it as a good
aftermarket replacement of other saws. With regard to integrity and
smoothness, I did the ole' nickle test on my 11-12 year old saw just a
month or so ago. The machine is starting to show a little use but the
nickle stayed put.

Another poster suggested that Grizzly had 3rd rank quality control.
Most of Grizzly's machinery is built wotjin ISO certified quality
systems. I went through ISO certification at my previous employer and
it isn't something that is just handed to a company. I certainly saw
no lack of quality control in my saw, or the new 15" Grizzly planer I
bought last year. Our son-in-law is a very serious woodworker and was
able to buy a complete woodshop when he got out of med school. He
bought the big 8" long bed Griz planer, drill press and surface planer
8 years ago and has on complaints.

Another poster suggested there was probably a parts problem with
Grizzly. Nope. I have only had a problem with two Grizzly products
One was an orbital sander that I dropped. The other was with a hand
held drum sander that blew its inflatable drum (sandpaper drum failure
and, well... maybe a little overinflated). In both cases I had a
replacement or parts within 2-3 days at no cost.

Up until about 7-8 years ago Fine Woodworking refused to include any
Grizzly products in their product reviews. About 7 years ago they
ranked the Grizzly 8", long bed jointer near or at the top of a group
of Powermatics, Jets, Deltas, etc. Since then Grizzly ends up in the
rankings often. (No I am not entering a discussion on the quality of
the magazine).

At the end of the day, folks who try to rank Grizzly in a category
with Harbor Freight are uninformed. No comparison. And no, I am not
a Grizzly-only shop. My cabinet saw and planer are sitting among
Powermatic, Jet, Delta and other machine tools. The Grizzly machines
are in the same class as all of them.

So There! :O)

RonB

On Mar 23, 9:50*am, Pat Barber wrote:
Remember, the Unisaw was designed in 1938. Do you have anything you
own that was designed and built in 1939 and still works ?

We have a few corn shellers around the farm that were likely made/
designed in the 1930s or before. They are rusted and dented but still
work the same as the day they were made many decades ago. Put an ear
of corn in the chute and the cob and kernels will come out the lower
end when you turn the crank and get the flywheel turning. I'd say the
complication of the design and manufacturing is comparable between a
manual corn sheller and a Unisaw.

On 3/23/12 11:07 AM, Steve Turner wrote:
On 3/23/2012 7:46 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Fri, 23 Mar 2012 05:57:42 -0400, Ed wrote:

On Thu, 22 Mar 2012 20:07:39 -0700, Doug Winterburn
wrote:


Not sure where the "tweaking" evaluation comes from, but the Griz
equipment I have required none - G0555 bandsaw, GO505 12.5" planer and
GO452 6" jointer. I did have to "tweak" a little when I installed the
riser kit on the bandsaw, but only about an hour or two including the
install.

It is certainly no more "tweaking" and possibly less than some of the
other equipment I have.

It comes from reading this group for a number of years. I see more
people having to do little things on Grizzly more often than other
brands. Not that the others are perfect.

That's because they read all the tips about Griz here and all want to
make the saw even better. If tips abounded for the Unisaw, these
folks would tweak those to death, too. My Grizzes (bandsaw, planer,
DC, trim router) needed no extra tweaking, though I did install link
belts on the bandsaw about 6 mos later, and it's smoother now.

What I do see is that all machines need about the same amount of
tweaking, no matter what their original cost. The pricier ones may
have been through a couple extra use tests, so the small amount of
deburring which happens during setup has already been performed, so it
feels smoother to the new owner the first time it's used.

Not that any of my machines (Grizzlies included) have needed any
significant amount of "tweaking", but I'm a tweaker by nature (blush),
so if it ain't perfect I wanna fix it, and my Unisaw and Minimax bandsaw
have received just as much "tweaking" as any of my Grizzly machines.



We are talking thousandths of an inch for most of these tweaking
adjustments.
I wonder if even those $15,000+ industrial sliding tables saws don't
need tweaked to perfection after getting jittered around in the back of
a truck for a thousand miles.

Think about the road (&boat) trip taken by most of the woodworking saws
we're talking about in this thread. They may be set-up perfectly at the
factory, but by the time they take all the boat and truck trips and are
loaded and unloaded on and off docks and trucks and forklifts and
pallets and pick-up trucks and finally (probably the most culpable stage
in getting to your shop) getting taken off the truck in your driveway
and making it into its final resting spot, by whatever means
necessary..... I'd be very surprised if any saw didn't get whacked out
of adjustment by at least several thousandths of an inch.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 3/23/2012 12:08 AM, Steve Turner wrote:

I have three Grizzly machines:

http://www.grizzly.com/products/15-Planer/G0453
http://www.grizzly.com/products/2-HP...ollector/G0440
http://www.grizzly.com/products/Heav...od-Lathe/G1495

All three are excellent machines and none have required any "tweaking"
to get them to operate as designed. My father has several Grizzly
machines as well:

A 15" planer that is no longer offered, but is virtually identical to
models still available from Delta, General, and Shop Fox.

I have the 15" planer with the spiral cutter head. Nice too but, it
came with no gear oil, but it mentioned to be sure to check it, it was
supposed to have been filled at the factory. Good thing I checked, I
almost didn't. It was a bear to check and to fill, bad location/design.
I had to go to the parts store for a quart of gear oil, and a funnel
with a long neck to get the oil in.

After only several hours of use, it started to make some funny noises
and was losing power. Turned out the lower belt pulley was lose and
spinning on the arbor. The bolt, washer and key that held the pulley on
was laying on the bottom of the belt cover. They never tightened the
pulley, and didn't have a lock washer on the bolt. The upper pulley did
have a lock washer. Both these issues are quality control issues, but
have about zero effect on the quality of the equipment. I was
*thrilled* it was just a loose pulley, and not something serious.

There are a couple minor design issues I don't like, like how the
rollers on top cover the bolts on the dust cover and the gear oil thing,
and the short power cord, but over all, it is a sweet piece.
It's the only planer I ever owned, so how it compares I don't know. I
can see the quality control issues, but I consider that stuff getting to
know your machine:-)

It works great, and if it is durable, I'll be happy. I expect it will
out last me, so if durable, my son, or whomever, will be happy.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 3/23/2012 10:54 AM, RonB wrote:
On Mar 22, 5:12 pm, wrote:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Questions have been posed by the previous input:
1. Is a Grizzly (foreign made) better than a Powermatic or Unisaw?
2. What features do others consider most important? (never mind the fence,
it can be purchased separately if necessary)
I don't dismiss anyone's suggestions.

Max

I'll frame this it the time frame when I bought my Grizzly G1023S:

At the end of the day, folks who try to rank Grizzly in a category
with Harbor Freight are uninformed. No comparison. And no, I am not
a Grizzly-only shop. My cabinet saw and planer are sitting among
Powermatic, Jet, Delta and other machine tools. The Grizzly machines
are in the same class as all of them.

So There! :O)

RonB

After seeing several recommendations by those with Grizzly experience I
would agree that they deserve consideration.
I looked at the 690. It seems to be a worthy candidate but I noticed
that it didn't have a "blade shroud"; a feature that several other
manufacturers have adopted. Since dust control is a major item on my
"want" list I hesitate on buying a Grizzly.
Your input is greatly appreciated.

Max

On 3/23/2012 11:20 AM, Steve Turner wrote:
On 3/23/2012 9:45 AM, Digger wrote:
On 3/23/2012 12:08 AM, Steve Turner wrote:
A 15" planer that is no longer offered, but is virtually identical to models
still available from Delta, General, and Shop Fox.
http://www.grizzly.com/products/8-x-...ile-Base/G0656
http://www.grizzly.com/products/1-1-2-HP-Shaper/G1035
http://www.grizzly.com/products/14-E...Bandsaw/G0555X
http://www.grizzly.com/products/2-HP...peller/G1029Z2


(Not completely sure if the dust collector is the same model)

I've never heard him complain one iota about the quality of any of those
machines, though I have used them all and I will say that I'm not too enamored
of the band saw or the dust collector (probably because I have machines that
are of a much better design). Unfortunately, I don't have any hands-on

Just curious, what did you not like about the 14" Bandsaw? I'm currently
considering the 14 or a 17 as secondary machine for a semi-permanent
specialty task. Don't need a Laguna but need something true and reliable
to eliminate blade change-out between tasks.

It just doesn't seem very sturdy to me. Keep in mind, I'm spoiled by my Minimax
bandsaw, which is built like a tank, but nonetheless I felt like with little
effort and without significant cost they could have done a better job of
designing things, like the height adjustment mechanism that carries the upper
blade guides. It's been several years since I used that saw, so my memory is a
bit dim, but as I recall that whole mechanism just kinda swings in the wind.
The drive wheels are also very lightweight, and there's a fair amount of sheet
metal in the product that could have been sturdied up quite a bit. The whole
things just kinda rattles when it's running.

I should probably clarify that my father's saw is perhaps 8-10 years old, so
I'm not completely sure it's that exact model I referenced in the link, but his
does have a closed base and that's the only closed base model that Grizzly
currently has listed. They may have made improvements to the saw since then, or
it may be a completely different and newer model. As I recall, he didn't pay
anywhere near $800 for his; I think it was closer to $475. I'll ask him if he
can give me a specific model number.

My father does indeed have a discontinued model, but Grizzly still has the
information for it on their website:

http://www.grizzly.com/products/G1019

(That's another thing I like about Grizzly; their customer service is very
good.) Perhaps you can compare the documentation between this machine and the
G0555X to see what the differences are. I have no doubt that many improvements
have been made.

--
Free bad advice available here.
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

"RonB" wrote

At the end of the day, folks who try to rank Grizzly in a category
with Harbor Freight are uninformed. No comparison. And no, I am not
a Grizzly-only shop. My cabinet saw and planer are sitting among
Powermatic, Jet, Delta and other machine tools. The Grizzly machines
are in the same class as all of them.

So There! :O)

You tell'em Ron!

All this talk about Grizzly. I guess I will have to chime in. I live 90
minutes away from the Grizzly headquarters and know a bunch of people in
that area. They were the ones who told me about them. Before I ever got a
catalog or bought anything from them, I saw the green tools in many shops.
And there were working shops, building houses, furniture, musical
instruments, etc. The number one message I got from all of them was "bang
for the buck". The tools were a good value. And far less expensive than
many other, more prestigious names.

I set up a shop with Grizzly tools over 25 years ago. Good price on
everything. I did have to do some work to align the table saw. But the
walked me through it on the phone and sent me complete instructions. Every
thing else was fine out of the box. Since that time I have bought many more
of the tools. Some for me and many for other people. Both for woodworking
and metalworking. I bought several of their drill presses.

Having had this experience, I will say this about Grizzly.

1. Yes, at one time there was some tweaking required. Over the years,
their quality has greatly improved. But to this day, I find some tweaking
necessary (or desirable) on almost anything.

2. One thing that greatly impresses me about Grizzly is that they are
incredibly responsive to their customers. I remember talking to some of the
guys who bought their early table saws and how they told the folks at
Grizzly what they wanted to see on the saw. Grizzly went to work and
designed new saws. Something they do to this day. If they get enough
requests for a certain size and cost of a tool, they will manufacture it.
How many companies can you name that will do that for you?

3. They have an incredible number of models of many of their tools. Many
of their tools are designed for commercial use. That means if you are a
hobbyist, you can buy a serious machine at a reasonable cost. If you are a
businessman, you can buy something that will do the job without mortgaging
the tools. And it gives you a Choice!! Even if I can't afford it, I like
the idea of actually having a choice of the tool I want. Many suppliers
have one or two models. Grizzly has many models of many tools.

4. One of the old timer tricks that the guys in those shops taught me was
to first figure out what you wanted. Then figure out what you could afford.
Then buy the next one up the list from there. By going to a tool just a
little better, bigger, etc than what you figure you needed, you would end up
getting something that will take care of you well into the future.

5. I know I mentioned this before, but there are some serious bargains in
the scratch and dent department. I bought several tools from there are good
prices.

I have not bought any tools from them for awhile. And mostly I have helped
other people buy tools form them recently. I am impressed that they are
constantly increasing the number and variety of tools. They may not have
the prestige and status of other tool brands. But they offer a good
selection, excellent support, good value, a massive website and ugly green
paint too. Again, I learned bout Grizzly from people who made their living
from these tools. I can't think of a better referral than that.

On 3/23/2012 12:46 PM, -MIKE- wrote:

Not that any of my machines (Grizzlies included) have needed any
significant amount of "tweaking", but I'm a tweaker by nature (blush),
so if it ain't perfect I wanna fix it, and my Unisaw and Minimax bandsaw
have received just as much "tweaking" as any of my Grizzly machines.



We are talking thousandths of an inch for most of these tweaking
adjustments.
I wonder if even those $15,000+ industrial sliding tables saws don't
need tweaked to perfection after getting jittered around in the back of
a truck for a thousand miles.

Think about the road (&boat) trip taken by most of the woodworking saws
we're talking about in this thread. They may be set-up perfectly at the
factory, but by the time they take all the boat and truck trips and are
loaded and unloaded on and off docks and trucks and forklifts and
pallets and pick-up trucks and finally (probably the most culpable stage
in getting to your shop) getting taken off the truck in your driveway
and making it into its final resting spot, by whatever means
necessary..... I'd be very surprised if any saw didn't get whacked out
of adjustment by at least several thousandths of an inch.



I can't fault a machine for the need to be tweaked, initially. But
after that a good one should not need to be readjusted for a very long
time. I recently moved my shop, thanks again Swingman, I did not have
to retweak anything. The problem with band saws is that there are
sooooo many adjustments to be made initially. Better band saws hold
those adjustments. Some have to be fiddled with almost every time you
use one.

[snip]*From what I understand, Black and Decker, the precious [previous?] owner was
instrumental in the concept of the New Unisaw design, which is more than
a few years old now. ....

B&D engineers and designers were developing a new, wide range of Delta
products - the new Unisaw among them.

B&D and Stanley merged with Stanley taking control of both
organizations. It was then that they sold off their Delta line, and
all the projects and products under development became dead in the
water. Delta had not only come out with a new Unisaw model, but also
an 18" drill press designed specifically for woodworking that seems to
still be available (at least) through Amazon. (I see that the Unisaw
is also available through Amazon, but I don't know about the quality
since the acquisition.)

On Fri, 23 Mar 2012 09:54:41 -0700 (PDT), RonB
wrote:




Another poster suggested that Grizzly had 3rd rank quality control.
Most of Grizzly's machinery is built wotjin ISO certified quality
systems. I went through ISO certification at my previous employer and
it isn't something that is just handed to a company. I certainly saw
no lack of quality control in my saw, or the new 15" Grizzly planer I
bought last year.

ISO does not assure high quality. It assures consistency. If you
make a high quality product, the next one will be the same as the
last. If you make a crappy product, the next one will be the same as
the last.

ISO certification means you have policies and procedures to cover a
series of situations. Inspections certify that you follow them.

"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
...

On Fri, 23 Mar 2012 09:54:41 -0700 (PDT), RonB
wrote:




Another poster suggested that Grizzly had 3rd rank quality control.
Most of Grizzly's machinery is built wotjin ISO certified quality
systems. I went through ISO certification at my previous employer and
it isn't something that is just handed to a company. I certainly saw
no lack of quality control in my saw, or the new 15" Grizzly planer I
bought last year.

ISO does not assure high quality. It assures consistency. If you
make a high quality product, the next one will be the same as the
last. If you make a crappy product, the next one will be the same as
the last.

ISO certification means you have policies and procedures to cover a
series of situations. Inspections certify that you follow them.
================================================== ==============
True. Being familiar with ISO certification and what it means, I always
thought it amusing when they use that as advertising.

On Fri, 23 Mar 2012 11:48:05 -0400, Bill
wrote:

On 3/23/2012 8:46 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:

I like Makitas, too, and ordered their SP6000K1 plunge saw yesterday.


Congratulations sir!

Thanks. $393 at Home Depot, including free delivery. I still have to
get another 55" piece of track and the couplers, around $130. But
I'll have it pay for itself first.

I think I'll use it to construct a case for itself (if it doesn't come
with one.)

--
Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens.
-- Jimi Hendrix

On Fri, 23 Mar 2012 15:01:10 -0400, "Lee Michaels"
leemichaels*nadaspam* at comcast dot net wrote:



"RonB" wrote

At the end of the day, folks who try to rank Grizzly in a category
with Harbor Freight are uninformed. No comparison. And no, I am not
a Grizzly-only shop. My cabinet saw and planer are sitting among
Powermatic, Jet, Delta and other machine tools. The Grizzly machines
are in the same class as all of them.

So There! :O)

You tell'em Ron!

All this talk about Grizzly. I guess I will have to chime in. I live 90
minutes away from the Grizzly headquarters and know a bunch of people in
that area. They were the ones who told me about them. Before I ever got a
catalog or bought anything from them, I saw the green tools in many shops.
And there were working shops, building houses, furniture, musical
instruments, etc. The number one message I got from all of them was "bang
for the buck". The tools were a good value. And far less expensive than
many other, more prestigious names.

I set up a shop with Grizzly tools over 25 years ago. Good price on
everything. I did have to do some work to align the table saw. But the
walked me through it on the phone and sent me complete instructions. Every
thing else was fine out of the box. Since that time I have bought many more
of the tools. Some for me and many for other people. Both for woodworking
and metalworking. I bought several of their drill presses.

Having had this experience, I will say this about Grizzly.

1. Yes, at one time there was some tweaking required. Over the years,
their quality has greatly improved. But to this day, I find some tweaking
necessary (or desirable) on almost anything.

2. One thing that greatly impresses me about Grizzly is that they are
incredibly responsive to their customers. I remember talking to some of the
guys who bought their early table saws and how they told the folks at
Grizzly what they wanted to see on the saw. Grizzly went to work and
designed new saws. Something they do to this day. If they get enough
requests for a certain size and cost of a tool, they will manufacture it.
How many companies can you name that will do that for you?

3. They have an incredible number of models of many of their tools. Many
of their tools are designed for commercial use. That means if you are a
hobbyist, you can buy a serious machine at a reasonable cost. If you are a
businessman, you can buy something that will do the job without mortgaging
the tools. And it gives you a Choice!! Even if I can't afford it, I like
the idea of actually having a choice of the tool I want. Many suppliers
have one or two models. Grizzly has many models of many tools.

4. One of the old timer tricks that the guys in those shops taught me was
to first figure out what you wanted. Then figure out what you could afford.
Then buy the next one up the list from there. By going to a tool just a
little better, bigger, etc than what you figure you needed, you would end up
getting something that will take care of you well into the future.

5. I know I mentioned this before, but there are some serious bargains in
the scratch and dent department. I bought several tools from there are good
prices.

I have not bought any tools from them for awhile. And mostly I have helped
other people buy tools form them recently. I am impressed that they are
constantly increasing the number and variety of tools. They may not have
the prestige and status of other tool brands. But they offer a good
selection, excellent support, good value, a massive website and ugly green
paint too. Again, I learned bout Grizzly from people who made their living
from these tools. I can't think of a better referral than that.

Your and RonB's posts today belong in the Wreck FAQ. Excellent, guys!
Well done.

P.S: Griz Green is Gorgeous compared to Ooogly Gray pieces of metal
which belong on some damned Naval ship. Ptui!

--
Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens.
-- Jimi Hendrix

On 3/23/2012 10:44 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

ISO does not assure high quality. It assures consistency. If you
make a high quality product, the next one will be the same as the
last. If you make a crappy product, the next one will be the same as
the last.

ISO certification means you have policies and procedures to cover a
series of situations. Inspections certify that you follow them.

It is painfully apparent that many product spec's, including ISO, have
never been translated into Mandarin, or any of the myriad of other
languages spoken in China/Pacific rim.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On 3/24/2012 6:26 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Fri, 23 Mar 2012 15:01:10 -0400, "Lee Michaels"
leemichaels*nadaspam* at comcast dot net wrote:



"RonB" wrote

At the end of the day, folks who try to rank Grizzly in a category
with Harbor Freight are uninformed. No comparison. And no, I am not
a Grizzly-only shop. My cabinet saw and planer are sitting among
Powermatic, Jet, Delta and other machine tools. The Grizzly machines
are in the same class as all of them.

So There! :O)

You tell'em Ron!

All this talk about Grizzly. I guess I will have to chime in. I live 90
minutes away from the Grizzly headquarters and know a bunch of people in
that area. They were the ones who told me about them. Before I ever got a
catalog or bought anything from them, I saw the green tools in many shops.
And there were working shops, building houses, furniture, musical
instruments, etc. The number one message I got from all of them was "bang
for the buck". The tools were a good value. And far less expensive than
many other, more prestigious names.

I set up a shop with Grizzly tools over 25 years ago. Good price on
everything. I did have to do some work to align the table saw. But the
walked me through it on the phone and sent me complete instructions. Every
thing else was fine out of the box. Since that time I have bought many more
of the tools. Some for me and many for other people. Both for woodworking
and metalworking. I bought several of their drill presses.

Having had this experience, I will say this about Grizzly.

1. Yes, at one time there was some tweaking required. Over the years,
their quality has greatly improved. But to this day, I find some tweaking
necessary (or desirable) on almost anything.

2. One thing that greatly impresses me about Grizzly is that they are
incredibly responsive to their customers. I remember talking to some of the
guys who bought their early table saws and how they told the folks at
Grizzly what they wanted to see on the saw. Grizzly went to work and
designed new saws. Something they do to this day. If they get enough
requests for a certain size and cost of a tool, they will manufacture it.
How many companies can you name that will do that for you?

3. They have an incredible number of models of many of their tools. Many
of their tools are designed for commercial use. That means if you are a
hobbyist, you can buy a serious machine at a reasonable cost. If you are a
businessman, you can buy something that will do the job without mortgaging
the tools. And it gives you a Choice!! Even if I can't afford it, I like
the idea of actually having a choice of the tool I want. Many suppliers
have one or two models. Grizzly has many models of many tools.

4. One of the old timer tricks that the guys in those shops taught me was
to first figure out what you wanted. Then figure out what you could afford.
Then buy the next one up the list from there. By going to a tool just a
little better, bigger, etc than what you figure you needed, you would end up
getting something that will take care of you well into the future.

5. I know I mentioned this before, but there are some serious bargains in
the scratch and dent department. I bought several tools from there are good
prices.

I have not bought any tools from them for awhile. And mostly I have helped
other people buy tools form them recently. I am impressed that they are
constantly increasing the number and variety of tools. They may not have
the prestige and status of other tool brands. But they offer a good
selection, excellent support, good value, a massive website and ugly green
paint too. Again, I learned bout Grizzly from people who made their living
from these tools. I can't think of a better referral than that.

Your and RonB's posts today belong in the Wreck FAQ. Excellent, guys!
Well done.

P.S: Griz Green is Gorgeous compared to Ooogly Gray pieces of metal
which belong on some damned Naval ship. Ptui!


I see the difference between Grizzly and the better known brands as
being similar to, say a Ford Fusion and a Lincoln MKZ. They both have
essentially the same body, power train, etc. but the MKZ is a bit more
"finessed". I like the Ford Fusion but I bought an MKZ. ;-)

Max (Candy Apple Red)

On Sat, 24 Mar 2012 08:42:13 -0500, Swingman wrote:

On 3/23/2012 10:44 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

ISO does not assure high quality. It assures consistency. If you
make a high quality product, the next one will be the same as the
last. If you make a crappy product, the next one will be the same as
the last.

ISO certification means you have policies and procedures to cover a
series of situations. Inspections certify that you follow them.

It is painfully apparent that many product spec's, including ISO, have
never been translated into Mandarin, or any of the myriad of other
languages spoken in China/Pacific rim.


The real problem is not the translation, but the specification
writers. If you specify cheap material made into a cheap assembly,
you get a crap product. It is often the American engineers and bean
counters writing those specs.

I've found some very high quality products from China. I've also
found some sleazy stuff being imported by US companies.

I've also been buying tooling from China. The quality is equal or
better, half the price and a third the delivery time. Our customers
won't pay the price for US made tooling so we either walk away from
the business and lay people off, or buy tooling from China and employ
people.

On 3/24/2012 9:20 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Sat, 24 Mar 2012 08:42:13 -0500, wrote:

On 3/23/2012 10:44 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

ISO does not assure high quality. It assures consistency. If you
make a high quality product, the next one will be the same as the
last. If you make a crappy product, the next one will be the same as
the last.

ISO certification means you have policies and procedures to cover a
series of situations. Inspections certify that you follow them.

It is painfully apparent that many product spec's, including ISO, have
never been translated into Mandarin, or any of the myriad of other
languages spoken in China/Pacific rim.


The real problem is not the translation, but the specification
writers. If you specify cheap material made into a cheap assembly,
you get a crap product. It is often the American engineers and bean
counters writing those specs.

I've found some very high quality products from China. I've also
found some sleazy stuff being imported by US companies.

I've also been buying tooling from China. The quality is equal or
better, half the price and a third the delivery time. Our customers
won't pay the price for US made tooling so we either walk away from
the business and lay people off, or buy tooling from China and employ
people.


Tired of hearing that overplayed tune as an excuse.

Sure there are few things that are done well, but that does NOT excuse
the absolute factual evidence that the state of Chinese products is
deplorable, even for use in China itself.

The below is just the tip of a growing iceberg. Dig into any of the
links (which might take you months) and what you find is a manufacturing
culture with no regard whatsoever for quality, value, and human decency
when it comes to making a buck, and basically little regulation to
insure even its own citizens are safe from that greed, much less what
they sell to the "Gwai Lo" :

http://topics.nytimes.com/topics/ref...ina/index.html

In short, if it says "made in china", with overall rare exception, it is
cheap crap.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop