"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 24 Mar 2012 08:42:13 -0500, Swingman wrote:

On 3/23/2012 10:44 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

ISO does not assure high quality. It assures consistency. If you
make a high quality product, the next one will be the same as the
last. If you make a crappy product, the next one will be the same as
the last.

ISO certification means you have policies and procedures to cover a
series of situations. Inspections certify that you follow them.

It is painfully apparent that many product spec's, including ISO, have
never been translated into Mandarin, or any of the myriad of other
languages spoken in China/Pacific rim.


The real problem is not the translation, but the specification
writers. If you specify cheap material made into a cheap assembly,
you get a crap product. It is often the American engineers and bean
counters writing those specs.

I've found some very high quality products from China. I've also
found some sleazy stuff being imported by US companies.

I've also been buying tooling from China. The quality is equal or
better, half the price and a third the delivery time. Our customers
won't pay the price for US made tooling so we either walk away from
the business and lay people off, or buy tooling from China and employ
people.

On that note, I cannot bring myself to buy HF tools for myself... though I
have stopped in the HF store near my office and picked up tools for others.
The last bad experience was my helping drywall about 800 sq ft of space with
someone who had a HF drywall driver. I used my 25+ year old Porter Cable
driver that I've used to rock 4-5 houses worth of space and the interior of
a retail store in a strip mall. I could have done all the driving myself in
less total time than was spent with both tools. This due to the time spent
messing around with the HF driver's depth stop (that never seemed to be
right). Listening to the gritty motor on the HF tool wasn't pleasant
either...

That said, I have a bunch of Jet stationary tools and my DJ-20 hails from
Taiwan as I recall. Thus it's not a complete aversion to foreign tools it's
an aversion to low end foreign tools.

John

On Sat, 24 Mar 2012 08:01:46 -0600, Max wrote:

On 3/24/2012 6:26 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
P.S: Griz Green is Gorgeous compared to Ooogly Gray pieces of metal
which belong on some damned Naval ship. Ptui!


I see the difference between Grizzly and the better known brands as
being similar to, say a Ford Fusion and a Lincoln MKZ. They both have
essentially the same body, power train, etc. but the MKZ is a bit more
"finessed". I like the Ford Fusion but I bought an MKZ. ;-)

Max (Candy Apple Red)

Cool, that's the epitome of Male Menopause colors!
Happy Midlife Crisis to ya, Maxy. xox

--
"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the
government fears the people, there is liberty." - Thomas Jefferson

"Larry Jaques" wrote

On Sat, 24 Mar 2012 08:01:46 -0600, Max wrote:

I see the difference between Grizzly and the better known brands as
being similar to, say a Ford Fusion and a Lincoln MKZ. They both have
essentially the same body, power train, etc. but the MKZ is a bit more
"finessed". I like the Ford Fusion but I bought an MKZ. ;-)

Max (Candy Apple Red)

Cool, that's the epitome of Male Menopause colors!
Happy Midlife Crisis to ya, Maxy. xox

Actually the choice was SWMBOs, although I do occasionally get to drive it.
I don't know how old she really is but she has celebrated 39 for quite a
number of years.
My truck is white.

Max

On Sat, 24 Mar 2012 09:47:34 -0500, Swingman wrote:



Tired of hearing that overplayed tune as an excuse.

I'm tired of hearing that everything from China is junk. Some is,
much is not.



Sure there are few things that are done well, but that does NOT excuse
the absolute factual evidence that the state of Chinese products is
deplorable, even for use in China itself.

The below is just the tip of a growing iceberg. Dig into any of the
links (which might take you months) and what you find is a manufacturing
culture with no regard whatsoever for quality, value, and human decency
when it comes to making a buck, and basically little regulation to
insure even its own citizens are safe from that greed, much less what
they sell to the "Gwai Lo" :

http://topics.nytimes.com/topics/ref...ina/index.html

In short, if it says "made in china", with overall rare exception, it is
cheap crap.


Your translation. Yes, some working conditions are deplorable, they
have no regard for human life and some businessmen are greedy SOBs
too. That does not change the fact that they can also make a quality
product when asked to and they can make crap when asked to.

While casting stones over the Pacific is appropriate in many cases,
look at the situation here at the same time. Who is importing that
stuff? Who is buying that stuff and why?

I just ordered a new coffee maker, made in the Netherlands for $300.
Perhaps they should replace all the $19.95 B & D and Mr. Coffee units
that are on the shelves all over America. As a whole, we would not
stand for it and pay the price for a quality US made coffee maker.

American consumers demand low priced "stuff", no matter the cost.

On Sat, 24 Mar 2012 11:18:27 -0400, "John Grossbohlin"
wrote:



I've also been buying tooling from China. The quality is equal or
better, half the price and a third the delivery time. Our customers
won't pay the price for US made tooling so we either walk away from
the business and lay people off, or buy tooling from China and employ
people.

On that note, I cannot bring myself to buy HF tools for myself... though I
have stopped in the HF store near my office and picked up tools for others.

When I say tooling, I'm talking about aluminum molds for plastics.
They can cost from $6,000 to $50,000, depending on size and
complexity. These are on-off specialty items.

Lead times from China are usually 20 to 25 days. In the US, it is six
to eight weeks.

On 3/24/2012 12:32 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Sat, 24 Mar 2012 09:47:34 -0500, wrote:

Tired of hearing that overplayed tune as an excuse.

I'm tired of hearing that everything from China is junk. Some is,
much is not.

"Sure there are few things that are done well, but that does NOT excuse
the absolute factual evidence that the state of Chinese products is
deplorable, even for use in China itself."

Sure there are few things that are done well, but that does NOT excuse
the absolute factual evidence that the state of Chinese products is
deplorable, even for use in China itself.

The below is just the tip of a growing iceberg. Dig into any of the
links (which might take you months) and what you find is a manufacturing
culture with no regard whatsoever for quality, value, and human decency
when it comes to making a buck, and basically little regulation to
insure even its own citizens are safe from that greed, much less what
they sell to the "Gwai Lo" :

http://topics.nytimes.com/topics/ref...ina/index.html

In short, if it says "made in china", with overall rare exception, it is
cheap crap.


Your translation. Yes, some working conditions are deplorable, they
have no regard for human life and some businessmen are greedy SOBs
too. That does not change the fact that they can also make a quality
product when asked to and they can make crap when asked to.

"Sure there are few things that are done well, but that does NOT excuse
the absolute factual evidence that the state of Chinese products is
deplorable, even for use in China itself."

While casting stones over the Pacific is appropriate in many cases,
look at the situation here at the same time. Who is importing that
stuff? Who is buying that stuff and why?

"Sure there are few things that are done well, but that does NOT excuse
the absolute factual evidence that the state of Chinese products is
deplorable, even for use in China itself."

I just ordered a new coffee maker, made in the Netherlands for $300.
Perhaps they should replace all the $19.95 B& D and Mr. Coffee units
that are on the shelves all over America.

Who is "they", and what do "they" have to do with it?

American consumers demand low priced "stuff", no matter the cost.

"Sure there are few things that are done well, but that does NOT excuse
the absolute factual evidence that the state of Chinese products is
deplorable, even for use in China itself."

Got the point yet??

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
...

On Sat, 24 Mar 2012 09:47:34 -0500, Swingman wrote:



Tired of hearing that overplayed tune as an excuse.

I'm tired of hearing that everything from China is junk. Some is,
much is not.



Sure there are few things that are done well, but that does NOT excuse
the absolute factual evidence that the state of Chinese products is
deplorable, even for use in China itself.

The below is just the tip of a growing iceberg. Dig into any of the
links (which might take you months) and what you find is a manufacturing
culture with no regard whatsoever for quality, value, and human decency
when it comes to making a buck, and basically little regulation to
insure even its own citizens are safe from that greed, much less what
they sell to the "Gwai Lo" :

http://topics.nytimes.com/topics/ref...ina/index.html

In short, if it says "made in china", with overall rare exception, it is
cheap crap.


Your translation. Yes, some working conditions are deplorable, they
have no regard for human life and some businessmen are greedy SOBs
too. That does not change the fact that they can also make a quality
product when asked to and they can make crap when asked to.

While casting stones over the Pacific is appropriate in many cases,
look at the situation here at the same time. Who is importing that
stuff? Who is buying that stuff and why?

I just ordered a new coffee maker, made in the Netherlands for $300.
Perhaps they should replace all the $19.95 B & D and Mr. Coffee units
that are on the shelves all over America. As a whole, we would not
stand for it and pay the price for a quality US made coffee maker.

American consumers demand low priced "stuff", no matter the cost.
================================================== ===============
Agreed. Back in the days that Japanese stuff still had the reputation as
junk, I lived in Japan. The amount of quality products and technology was
amazing.You could, of course, buy junk too if that is what you wanted. The
reason you didn't see it in the US was because the importers, seeking max
profit, were only importing the junk as it was the cheapest they could buy
and still sell it here. That is the same thing going on with China right
now. They can and do make quality products but they are more expensive than
the importers are willing to pay. For a good example of that, take a look at
some of the precision measuring instruments coming out of China.
Micrometers, calipers, height gages, ect. Very well made and very accurate.
I have no doubt that the molds that Ed is buying are well made. All the
importers have to do is not buy junk then you would see what they are
capable of. Unfortunately, that does cut into our manufacturing base. I
think the coming war will straiten things out a bit though.

On Sat, 24 Mar 2012 13:03:54 -0500, Swingman wrote:




"Sure there are few things that are done well, but that does NOT excuse
the absolute factual evidence that the state of Chinese products is
deplorable, even for use in China itself."

Which is why I never said it should be excused. It should not be. Not
all products are deplorable.





"Sure there are few things that are done well, but that does NOT excuse
the absolute factual evidence that the state of Chinese products is
deplorable, even for use in China itself."

Which is why I never said it should be excused. It should not be. Not
all products are deplorable.



I just ordered a new coffee maker, made in the Netherlands for $300.
Perhaps they should replace all the $19.95 B& D and Mr. Coffee units
that are on the shelves all over America.

Who is "they", and what do "they" have to do with it?
Retailers and importers. The ones that sell us all the stuff from
China that Americans buy because they think it is a bargain.


American consumers demand low priced "stuff", no matter the cost.

"Sure there are few things that are done well, but that does NOT excuse
the absolute factual evidence that the state of Chinese products is
deplorable, even for use in China itself."

Which is why I never said it should be excused. It should not be. Not
all products are deplorable.


Got the point yet??

No, you haven't.

When the American consumer demands and pays for well made products
made in countries with good human rights and working conditions, they
will get them. As long as we shop to save every possible penny on the
lowest priced TV, appliance, clothing, sneakers, it will come from the
cheapest producers in the world.

Until that happens, China will continue to produce both good and bad
products that meet the specifications given to them. When a million
people line up the same day to buy the latest I-product of the month,
it won't change.

Many of the tools, furnishings, foods made both domestically and
imported have been cheapened, lightened, thinned , watered and
adulterated and we keep buying th at crap.

Meantime, we cook up some Pink Slime and think we are getting a good
price on our food bill. I save 5¢ a pound at Bargain Mart over the
big Supermart. Yep, pure American made Pink Slime. Just as good as
melamine.

Ed Pawlowski wrote in
:

Meantime, we cook up some Pink Slime and think we are getting a good
price on our food bill. I save 5½ a pound at Bargain Mart over the
big Supermart. Yep, pure American made Pink Slime. Just as good as
melamine.

Umm, no. Melamine is a poison when consumed in the quantities they used.
Also, that finely textured beef, aka pink slime is indeed beef in the sense
it is derived from cows. Moreover, we already consume too much red meat (I
find it yummy too), so some dilution with what is basically filler is
really not that bad. Remember, turkey, chicken and so on gets puffed up
with water and chemicals too. Luckily NOT melamine.

NOTE:
I'm not condoning adding pink slime without explicitly stating on the label
that it is added.
--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

On 24 Mar 2012 19:53:23 GMT, Han wrote:

Ed Pawlowski wrote in
:

Meantime, we cook up some Pink Slime and think we are getting a good
price on our food bill. I save 5½ a pound at Bargain Mart over the
big Supermart. Yep, pure American made Pink Slime. Just as good as
melamine.

Umm, no. Melamine is a poison when consumed in the quantities they used.
Also, that finely textured beef, aka pink slime is indeed beef in the sense
it is derived from cows. Moreover, we already consume too much red meat (I
find it yummy too), so some dilution with what is basically filler is
really not that bad. Remember, turkey, chicken and so on gets puffed up
with water and chemicals too. Luckily NOT melamine.

NOTE:
I'm not condoning adding pink slime without explicitly stating on the label
that it is added.


The puffed up chicken and pork is labeled as such and there are
readily available alternatives. Cheap store carry that crap, the
better stores do not.

If you don't mind your beef processed with ammonia, that is your
decision. I have a meat grinder.

On Sat, 24 Mar 2012 10:07:04 -0600, "Max"
wrote:



"Larry Jaques" wrote

On Sat, 24 Mar 2012 08:01:46 -0600, Max wrote:

I see the difference between Grizzly and the better known brands as
being similar to, say a Ford Fusion and a Lincoln MKZ. They both have
essentially the same body, power train, etc. but the MKZ is a bit more
"finessed". I like the Ford Fusion but I bought an MKZ. ;-)

Max (Candy Apple Red)

Cool, that's the epitome of Male Menopause colors!
Happy Midlife Crisis to ya, Maxy. xox

Actually the choice was SWMBOs, although I do occasionally get to drive it.

Did she have your midlife crisis for ya?


I don't know how old she really is but she has celebrated 39 for quite a
number of years.

Mom did that for 39 years, too. She gave it up 8 years ago.


My truck is white.

Whew!

--
"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the
government fears the people, there is liberty." - Thomas Jefferson

Ed Pawlowski wrote in
:

The puffed up chicken and pork is labeled as such and there are
readily available alternatives. Cheap store carry that crap, the
better stores do not.

Yes, and pink slime should be on the label too.

If you don't mind your beef processed with ammonia, that is your
decision. I have a meat grinder.

No meat grinder here. I'd like the better hamburger too, and I know where
to walk to get it http://www.swissporkstoreoffairlawn.com/.

Ammonia is better than salmonella or E. coli ...

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

On 3/24/2012 2:32 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Sat, 24 Mar 2012 13:03:54 -0500, wrote:


"Sure there are few things that are done well, but that does NOT excuse
the absolute factual evidence that the state of Chinese products is
deplorable, even for use in China itself."

Which is why I never said it should be excused. It should not be. Not
all products are deplorable.


Got the point yet??

No, you haven't.

Ignoring what was said, and then proceeding to prattle on, saying the
exact same thing in as many irrelevant ways as you can think of, is not
in the realm of discussion, and pretty well indicates my point went
right over your head, Ed.


Meantime, we cook up some Pink Slime and think we are getting a good
price on our food bill. I save 5¢ a pound at Bargain Mart over the
big Supermart. Yep, pure American made Pink Slime. Just as good as
melamine.

Wot? WTF does that have to do with the price of tea in .... gasp China?

Not to mention that with all your inclusive "we's" and "I's" above, you
may want to consider changing those shopping habits.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

When is the last time you've seen an American, Canadian, European
manufacturer get away with this level of unmitigated crap:


"Industrial Heavy Duty Caster Wheels", purchased six sets (24) of four a
few years back, brand new unopened; used for less than three months on
considerably less than 200 pound load.

All six sets have met the same fate within three months of being put to
limited use:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...87662054187346

Made in ... where else but .... China. (and that was in the fine print)


--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On Sat, 24 Mar 2012 13:03:54 -0500, Swingman wrote:

I'm tired of hearing that everything from China is junk. Some is, much
is not.

"Sure there are few things that are done well, but that does NOT excuse
the absolute factual evidence that the state of Chinese products is
deplorable, even for use in China itself."

Multiple repetitions of your opinion does not change the fact that it's
your opinion. Yes, it's an opinion shared by many others. But Ed's
opinion fits a lot better with my experience.

I saw a lot of Chiwanese tools when I worked at Woodcraft. Most were not
junk. The ones that were maybe not junk, but of lesser quality, tended
to be the portable tools (No, not the Festool). OK, maybe not a fair
sample, as Woodcraft doesn't tend to import the really low quality tools,
although I do recall some hand planes that were made in India as being
pretty bad.

So I'm pretty much agreeing with Ed - some is junk, some isn't. And a
reasonable examination of a tool before purchase will usually indicate
its quality.

--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

On 3/24/2012 6:34 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
On Sat, 24 Mar 2012 13:03:54 -0500, Swingman wrote:

I'm tired of hearing that everything from China is junk. Some is, much
is not.

"Sure there are few things that are done well, but that does NOT excuse
the absolute factual evidence that the state of Chinese products is
deplorable, even for use in China itself."

Multiple repetitions of your opinion does not change the fact that it's
your opinion.

Did you just miss the link I posted taking it clearly taking it out of
the realm of my _opinion_, or just ignore that, as Ed did?

An Ed did what by repeating the same thing over and over, in slightly
different ways, in the hopes that his obvious "opinion", with nothing
cited to back it up, would somehow become more relevant?

A bit of _obvious_ tit for tat, to make a point is always in order ...
but does indeed go over some heads.

Yes, it's an opinion shared by many others. But Ed's
opinion fits a lot better with my experience.

And exactly how does that differ with:

"Sure there are few things that are done well, but that does NOT excuse
the absolute factual evidence that the state of Chinese products is
deplorable, even for use in China itself."

Which is not, as you indicate, "opinion".

Here's that cite again:

http://topics.nytimes.com/topics/ref...ina/index.html

So I'm pretty much agreeing with Ed - some is junk, some isn't.

Which in what way does not agree with my statement you quoted above?

Sorry, your post simply does not stand examination with regard to the
facts ...

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On Mar 23, 10:44*pm, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Fri, 23 Mar 2012 09:54:41 -0700 (PDT), RonB
wrote:



Another poster suggested that Grizzly had 3rd rank quality control.
Most of Grizzly's machinery is built wotjin ISO certified quality
systems. *I went through ISO certification at my previous employer and
it isn't something that is just handed to a company. *I certainly saw
no lack of quality control in my saw, or the new 15" Grizzly planer I
bought last year.

ISO does not assure high quality. *It assures consistency. *If you
make a high quality product, the next one will be the same as the
last. *If you make a crappy product, the next one will be the same as
the last.

ISO certification means you have policies and procedures to cover *a
series of situations. *Inspections certify that you follow them.

I agree with almost everything said. However a production system that
can produce consistency is usually building quality because it has the
processes and controls to do so. Poor quality often results from
production breaks and inconsistent operations and products.

On Mar 24, 9:01*am, Max wrote:
On 3/24/2012 6:26 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:









On Fri, 23 Mar 2012 15:01:10 -0400, "Lee Michaels"
leemichaels*nadaspam* at comcast dot net *wrote:

"RonB" *wrote

At the end of the day, folks who try to rank Grizzly in a category
with Harbor Freight are uninformed. *No comparison. *And no, I am not
a Grizzly-only shop. *My cabinet saw and planer are sitting among
Powermatic, Jet, Delta and other machine tools. *The Grizzly machines
are in the same class as all of them.

So There! * *:O)

You tell'em Ron!

All this talk about Grizzly. *I guess I will have to chime in. *I live 90
minutes away from the Grizzly headquarters and know a bunch of people in
that area. *They were the ones who told me about them. *Before I ever got a
catalog or bought anything from them, I saw the green tools in many shops.
And there were working shops, building houses, furniture, musical
instruments, etc. *The number one message I got from all of them was "bang
for the buck". *The tools were a good value. *And far less expensive than
many other, more prestigious names.

I set up a shop with Grizzly tools over 25 years ago. *Good price on
everything. *I did have to do some work to align the table saw. *But the
walked me through it on the phone and sent me complete instructions. Every
thing else was fine out of the box. *Since that time I have bought many more
of the tools. Some for me and many for other people. *Both for woodworking
and metalworking. I bought several of their drill presses.

Having had this experience, I will say this about Grizzly.

1. *Yes, at one time there was some tweaking required. *Over the years,
their quality has greatly improved. *But to this day, I find some tweaking
necessary (or desirable) on almost anything.

2. *One thing that greatly impresses me about Grizzly is that they are
incredibly responsive to their customers. *I remember talking to some of the
guys who bought their early table saws and how they told the folks at
Grizzly what they wanted to see on the saw. *Grizzly went to work and
designed new saws. *Something they do to this day. *If they get enough
requests for a certain size and cost of a tool, they will manufacture it.
How many companies can you name that will do that for you?

3. *They have an incredible number of models of many of their tools. *Many
of their tools are designed for commercial use. *That means if you are a
hobbyist, you can buy a serious machine at a reasonable cost. *If you are a
businessman, you can buy something that will do the job without mortgaging
the tools. *And it gives you a Choice!! *Even if I can't afford it, I like
the idea of actually having a choice of the tool I want. *Many suppliers
have one or two models. * Grizzly has many models of many tools.

4. *One of the old timer tricks that the guys in those shops taught me was
to first figure out what you wanted. *Then figure out what you could afford.
Then buy the next one up the list from there. *By going to a tool just a
little better, bigger, etc than what you figure you needed, you would end up
getting something that will take care of you well into the future.

5. *I know I mentioned this before, but there are some serious bargains in
the scratch and dent department. *I bought several tools from there are good
prices.

I have not bought any tools from them for awhile. *And mostly I have helped
other people buy tools form them recently. *I am impressed that they are
constantly increasing the number and variety of tools. *They may not have
the prestige and status of other tool brands. *But they offer a good
selection, excellent support, good value, a massive website and ugly green
paint too. *Again, I learned bout Grizzly from people who made their living
from these tools. *I can't think of a better referral than that.

Your and RonB's posts today belong in the Wreck FAQ. Excellent, guys!
Well done.

P.S: Griz Green is Gorgeous compared to Ooogly Gray pieces of metal
which belong on some damned Naval ship. *Ptui!

I see the difference between Grizzly and the better known brands as
being similar to, say a Ford Fusion and a Lincoln MKZ. *They both have
essentially the same body, power train, etc. but the MKZ is a bit more
"finessed". *I like the Ford Fusion but I bought an MKZ. *;-)

Max *(Candy Apple Red)

Well Said! And I agree that our Grizzly products do possess that
extra bit of finesse.

(Spoken by an ornery old fart with latent troll tendencies. :0) )

On 3/24/2012 6:34 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
On Sat, 24 Mar 2012 13:03:54 -0500, Swingman wrote:


So I'm pretty much agreeing with Ed - some is junk, some isn't. And a
reasonable examination of a tool before purchase will usually indicate
its quality.

In case you missed this bit of fact and not "opinion":

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...87662054187346

This stuff was marketed by a Chinese manufacturer selling "cabinet
furniture" for the global market, and not made to an American company's
specs.

But what do you wanna bet it was a direct copy/ripoff, eh?

And forget about a "reasonable examination" of the product ... it did no
such thing that you indicate an examination would do.

Hell, send me your address and I'll send you the one remaining caster if
you want to give your "examination" routine a shot.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On Sat, 24 Mar 2012 18:53:35 -0500, Swingman wrote:




Did you just miss the link I posted taking it clearly taking it out of
the realm of my _opinion_, or just ignore that, as Ed did?

I did not ignore it. Not everything from China is crap. Some is, some
it not.


An Ed did what by repeating the same thing over and over, in slightly
different ways, in the hopes that his obvious "opinion", with nothing
cited to back it up, would somehow become more relevant?

My opinion is backed up with my personal experiences.



A bit of _obvious_ tit for tat, to make a point is always in order ...
but does indeed go over some heads.

Yes, it's an opinion shared by many others. But Ed's
opinion fits a lot better with my experience.

And exactly how does that differ with:

"Sure there are few things that are done well, but that does NOT excuse
the absolute factual evidence that the state of Chinese products is
deplorable, even for use in China itself."

Which is not, as you indicate, "opinion".

Here's that cite again:

http://topics.nytimes.com/topics/ref...ina/index.html



It tells a lot of stories of contaminated products from China. Yes,
there are many. There are still a lot happening in this country too.
Of course, it is wrong no matter where it comes from and it may be
worse from other countries. Even reputable companies like Johnson &
Johnson have had their plants shut down in recent months. Tons on
contaminated beef seems to come to light in the US every year too.

I won't mention Pink Slime again because you evidently see that as a
non-issue with the US food supply. Would you feel that way if the
Chinese used it in food shipped here?

On Sat, 24 Mar 2012 19:14:25 -0500, Swingman wrote:




In case you missed this bit of fact and not "opinion":

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...87662054187346

This stuff was marketed by a Chinese manufacturer selling "cabinet
furniture" for the global market, and not made to an American company's
specs.

But what do you wanna bet it was a direct copy/ripoff, eh?



You do realize how funny that is don't you? Probably copied the
design from a cheap ass US company importing cheap crap made to their
specs.

Many years ago, a company in New Jersey copied exactly a competitor's
product. We shipped the component they asked us to make, exactly as
asked. Turned out, they copied a poor design and they had failures
and found the competitor made modifications for the next year.

On Sat, 24 Mar 2012 17:05:36 -0700 (PDT), RonB
wrote:


ISO certification means you have policies and procedures to cover *a
series of situations. *Inspections certify that you follow them.

I agree with almost everything said. However a production system that
can produce consistency is usually building quality because it has the
processes and controls to do so. Poor quality often results from
production breaks and inconsistent operations and products.

Let's define quality. It is a product that works and will last for
the time it is designed to. If the design calls for two red and one
green lights, it will have two red and one green light. Even if they
are mounted in a place where you cannot see them. If it calls for 0.5
mill plastic for the trash bag, it will be that thickness but does not
perform as well as the 1.5 mil bags from Brand X. Load them thin ISO
made bags with heavy garbage and they will fail. Consistently though.
Same with a drill or saw with a small motor as compared to a more
expensive drill or saw with a more powerful motor with better bearings
and such.

ISO9000 assures that you have a policy to set aside defective material
and not mix it with the good stuff. It that way, yes, it can make a
better product than letting crap slip back through to the assembly
line. The policy has a defined method to be sure you use the right
drawings and manufacturing orders. If you specify low grade
materials, it assures that is what you get.

On Sun, 25 Mar 2012 00:22:18 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
I did not ignore it. Not everything from China is crap. Some is, some
it not.

Your statement above it too limited. The question is, How much is crap
and how much is not

Sure, there's always going to be some products that function
adequately, but whether they meet the criteria of what one would call
"quality" is another question.

Just the fact that the vast bulk of China's products are able to
compete rather easily in regards to cost should tell you all you most
of what you need to know.

Products made in China or products made in North America? Basically,
it's all made the same from the same materials with similar equipment.
The only possible difference is the cost of manpower. And, considering
that the bulk of most consumer products these days are machine made,
manpower cost is not as much of a factor as it once was.

China can and does take shortcuts with its manufacturing. The controls
and laws in China are very limited compared to North American
standards. Of course, this is just my opinion like every other opinion
here. But, it's not an opinion without basis.

On Sun, 25 Mar 2012 00:53:21 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
Let's define quality. It is a product that works and will last for
the time it is designed to.

That's a **** poor definition of quality in my opinion Ed. To me
"quality" is a concept that sets something above its competitors.
Whether that means something that lasts longer, looks better or
operates better than a competitor, it certainly does *not* mean that
it's just "Ok".

On Sun, 25 Mar 2012 01:24:02 -0400, Dave wrote:

On Sun, 25 Mar 2012 00:53:21 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
Let's define quality. It is a product that works and will last for
the time it is designed to.

That's a **** poor definition of quality in my opinion Ed. To me
"quality" is a concept that sets something above its competitors.
Whether that means something that lasts longer, looks better or
operates better than a competitor, it certainly does *not* mean that
it's just "Ok".

That goes back to my original definition of ISO. It assures a
consistent product. It does not assure a quality product as you
described above.

You either meet the standards set or you don't.

ISO does not set anything apart from it competitors, make it last
longer or operate better. Therefore, it is not a quality system, nor
does it assure a "quality" product.

On 3/24/2012 11:22 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

I won't mention Pink Slime again because you evidently see that as a
non-issue with the US food supply.

An assumption on your part that is incorrect.

Would you feel that way if the
Chinese used it in food shipped here?

What way are you assuming I feel?

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On 3/24/2012 11:30 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Sat, 24 Mar 2012 19:14:25 -0500, wrote:




In case you missed this bit of fact and not "opinion":


https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...87662054187346

This stuff was marketed by a Chinese manufacturer selling "cabinet
furniture" for the global market, and not made to an American company's
specs.

But what do you wanna bet it was a direct copy/ripoff, eh?


You do realize how funny that is don't you? Probably copied the
design from a cheap ass US company importing cheap crap made to their
specs.

Nothing funny about it ... it is, in fact, outright theft, with no
recourse for the victims. The Chinese government makes damn sure of that.

Many years ago, a company in New Jersey copied exactly a competitor's
product. We shipped the component they asked us to make, exactly as
asked. Turned out, they copied a poor design and they had failures
and found the competitor made modifications for the next year.

The point, Ed, is that China can manufacture "cheaply" because, using
cheap unskilled labor (and given the opportunity to so without
supervision), all regard for quality goes out the window.

Just like those caster wheels of mine above.

There is a big difference between "cheap" and "inexpensive", and the
Chinese are masters of the art of making the naive believe they are
synonymous.

It boils down to an unequivocal maxim: "Cheap, unskilled labor must be
supervised at all times".

The Chinese operate exactly like many of our workers in the construction
industry do in the US ... as long as you're there to supervise them you
can get _adequate_ quality out of their effort; as soon as you leave
them to their own inclination to get a job done, you stand a better than
even chance of getting crap, just like my caster wheels.

This is a generalization to some extenet, sure ... but one that you can
take to the bank as far as statistical, business bottom line odds go.

A good case in point, proffered, once again, to take it out of the realm
of just my "opinion":

http://finance.fortune.cnn.com/2011/...ries-in-china/

Once again, some good products come out of China (I appreciate my iPad),
but arguably ONLY because of a rigid supervision program. It is NOT the
Chinese worker, or their masters, who are making that happen because of
an inherent quest for "quality". More companies, and now consumers, are
realizing that it takes more effort then its worth simply because of the
maxim regarding supervision above.

In short, increasingly when left to it own devices, China produces
mostly _cheap_ crap ... end of story.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On 3/25/2012 1:22 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Sun, 25 Mar 2012 01:24:02 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 25 Mar 2012 00:53:21 -0400, Ed wrote:
Let's define quality. It is a product that works and will last for
the time it is designed to.

That's a **** poor definition of quality in my opinion Ed. To me
"quality" is a concept that sets something above its competitors.
Whether that means something that lasts longer, looks better or
operates better than a competitor, it certainly does *not* mean that
it's just "Ok".

That goes back to my original definition of ISO. It assures a
consistent product. It does not assure a quality product as you
described above.

You either meet the standards set or you don't.

ISO does not set anything apart from it competitors, make it last
longer or operate better. Therefore, it is not a quality system, nor
does it assure a "quality" product.

Then how come part of following the ISO process requires the keeping of
"quality records"? It IS a "quality system" in that it is designed to ensure
*consistent* quality, to whatever degree YOU define the term "quality".

--
Any given amount of traffic flow, no matter how
sparse, will expand to fill all available lanes.
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

On Mar 25, 9:59*am, Swingman wrote:
On 3/24/2012 11:30 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On Sat, 24 Mar 2012 19:14:25 -0500, *wrote:

In case you missed this bit of fact and not "opinion":

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...dShopJustStuff...



This stuff was marketed by a Chinese manufacturer selling "cabinet
furniture" for the global market, and not made to an American company's
specs.

But what do you wanna bet it was a direct copy/ripoff, eh?

You do realize how funny that is don't you? *Probably copied the
design from a cheap ass US company importing cheap crap made to their
specs.

Nothing funny about it ... it is, in fact, outright theft, with no
recourse for the victims. The Chinese government makes damn sure of that.

Many years ago, a company in New Jersey copied exactly a competitor's
product. *We shipped the component they asked us to make, exactly as
asked. *Turned out, they copied a poor design and they had failures
and found the competitor made modifications for the next year.

The point, Ed, is that China can manufacture "cheaply" because, using
cheap unskilled labor (and given the opportunity to so without
supervision), all regard for quality goes out the window.

Just like those caster wheels of mine above.

There is a big difference between "cheap" and "inexpensive", and the
Chinese are masters of the art of making the naive believe they are
synonymous.

It boils down to an unequivocal maxim: "Cheap, unskilled labor must be
supervised at all times".

The Chinese operate exactly like many of our workers in the construction
industry do in the US ... as long as you're there to supervise them you
can get _adequate_ quality out of their effort; as soon as you leave
them to their own inclination to get a job done, you stand a better than
even chance of getting crap, just like my caster wheels.

This is a generalization to some extenet, sure ... but one that you can
take to the bank as far as statistical, business bottom line odds go.

A good case in point, proffered, once again, to take it out of the realm
of just my "opinion":

http://finance.fortune.cnn.com/2011/...ur-factories-i...

Once again, some good products come out of China (I appreciate my iPad),
but arguably ONLY because of a rigid supervision program. It is NOT the
Chinese worker, or their masters, who are making that happen because of
an inherent quest for "quality". More companies, and now consumers, are
realizing that it takes more effort then its worth simply because of the
maxim regarding supervision above.

In short, increasingly when left to it own devices, China produces
mostly _cheap_ crap ... end of story.

--www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

I have read, but I'm not certain, that much of the castings used in
Powermatic and other upper end machine tools come out of China, to be
assembled over here. Maybe some of you know more about that.

About 6-7 years ago I bought a Powermatic 6" long bed jointer and the
offshore casting and machining rumor was prevalent then. Whether
parts were imported or not, it is a very nice machine. However, as I
posted here at the time, the manual that came with the tool was a BIG
disappointment. I started assembling the tool and immediately came up
with discrepancies. Then I started digging in past the operating
instructions and found several stupid errors including some procedures
and illustrations regarding my machine that clearly applied to their
8" jointer.

I sent an email with my concerns to their product support folks and
got a quick response. Their manuals go though exhaustive review and
they are correct. So I called their support folks and got the same
response. While I had them on the phone I gave them specific page,
paragraph and illustration references and the representative
maintained her "our publications are correct" attitude, clearly
implying I didn't know how to read them. Even when I explained I had
quite a few years experience with technical pubs and writing she stood
firm. About a week later I got a call from one of the support
supervisors. The intent was to apologize and thank me for pointing
out some embarrassing errors in their publication. He admitted that
my jointer shipped after a very recent update and "translation" of
their manuals and they found similar errors in other manuals as well.
A day or so later I received an email to the same effect.

Surprisingly, when I posted this concern to this group I caught a load
of buckshot from some readers. These folks didn't think I should be
judging the quality of an excellent machine by sloppy technical
publications. I guess I am jaundiced by 40 or so years of aerospace
engineering, configuration management, publications and business
development experience; but in my opinion if you cannot trust a
companies technical data you should be suspicious.

RonB

On Sun, 25 Mar 2012 09:18:11 -0500, Swingman wrote:




Would you feel that way if the
Chinese used it in food shipped here?

What way are you assuming I feel?


How is asking a question an assumption?

Let me jump in here... I hope I have a parachute.

Some Chinese items are better than American.
I have been buying the plastic compartments from HF. I used to buy
PLANO's but they are trash now. The material is so then on the planos
that the cover just buckles away when you carry one vertically. And
everything co-mingles. Yet the HF have been very sturdy. The planos now
only come with like 5-8 separators. So when buying a twenty something
compartment box you only get 5-8 compartments with plano.

So it goes both ways. But I would rather keep my money in the USA. But
I'm not stupid either.

On 3/24/2012 2:03 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 3/24/2012 12:32 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Sat, 24 Mar 2012 09:47:34 -0500, wrote:

Tired of hearing that overplayed tune as an excuse.

I'm tired of hearing that everything from China is junk. Some is,
much is not.

"Sure there are few things that are done well, but that does NOT excuse
the absolute factual evidence that the state of Chinese products is
deplorable, even for use in China itself."

Sure there are few things that are done well, but that does NOT excuse
the absolute factual evidence that the state of Chinese products is
deplorable, even for use in China itself.

The below is just the tip of a growing iceberg. Dig into any of the
links (which might take you months) and what you find is a manufacturing
culture with no regard whatsoever for quality, value, and human decency
when it comes to making a buck, and basically little regulation to
insure even its own citizens are safe from that greed, much less what
they sell to the "Gwai Lo" :

http://topics.nytimes.com/topics/ref...ina/index.html


In short, if it says "made in china", with overall rare exception, it is
cheap crap.


Your translation. Yes, some working conditions are deplorable, they
have no regard for human life and some businessmen are greedy SOBs
too. That does not change the fact that they can also make a quality
product when asked to and they can make crap when asked to.

"Sure there are few things that are done well, but that does NOT excuse
the absolute factual evidence that the state of Chinese products is
deplorable, even for use in China itself."

While casting stones over the Pacific is appropriate in many cases,
look at the situation here at the same time. Who is importing that
stuff? Who is buying that stuff and why?

"Sure there are few things that are done well, but that does NOT excuse
the absolute factual evidence that the state of Chinese products is
deplorable, even for use in China itself."

I just ordered a new coffee maker, made in the Netherlands for $300.
Perhaps they should replace all the $19.95 B& D and Mr. Coffee units
that are on the shelves all over America.

Who is "they", and what do "they" have to do with it?

American consumers demand low priced "stuff", no matter the cost.

"Sure there are few things that are done well, but that does NOT excuse
the absolute factual evidence that the state of Chinese products is
deplorable, even for use in China itself."

Got the point yet??

On Sun, 25 Mar 2012 09:59:37 -0500, Swingman wrote:

On 3/24/2012 11:30 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Sat, 24 Mar 2012 19:14:25 -0500, wrote:




In case you missed this bit of fact and not "opinion":


https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...87662054187346

This stuff was marketed by a Chinese manufacturer selling "cabinet
furniture" for the global market, and not made to an American company's
specs.

But what do you wanna bet it was a direct copy/ripoff, eh?


You do realize how funny that is don't you? Probably copied the
design from a cheap ass US company importing cheap crap made to their
specs.

Nothing funny about it ... it is, in fact, outright theft, with no
recourse for the victims. The Chinese government makes damn sure of that.

Many years ago, a company in New Jersey copied exactly a competitor's
product. We shipped the component they asked us to make, exactly as
asked. Turned out, they copied a poor design and they had failures
and found the competitor made modifications for the next year.

The point, Ed, is that China can manufacture "cheaply" because, using
cheap unskilled labor (and given the opportunity to so without
supervision), all regard for quality goes out the window.

Just like those caster wheels of mine above.

There is a big difference between "cheap" and "inexpensive", and the
Chinese are masters of the art of making the naive believe they are
synonymous.

And what they didn't already know about it, they assimilated from the
rest of the world.


It boils down to an unequivocal maxim: "Cheap, unskilled labor must be
supervised at all times".

Absolutely!


In short, increasingly when left to it own devices, China produces
mostly _cheap_ crap ... end of story.

That's only the story's first half. The second half is: the rest of
the world (including the USA) when left to its own devices, produces
mostly cheap (despite the price) crap. It's The Corporate Way! We can
thank greedy individuals (and other speaking weasels) for that.

--
"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the
government fears the people, there is liberty." - Thomas Jefferson

On 3/25/2012 10:59 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Sun, 25 Mar 2012 09:18:11 -0500, wrote:




Would you feel that way if the
Chinese used it in food shipped here?

What way are you assuming I feel?


How is asking a question an assumption?

Come now, your question clearly assumes I "feel" one way or the other
.... although no "feelings" were ever remotely expressed by me regarding
your "pink slime".

Once again, stating in "what way are you assuming I feel?", may actually
get you an answer.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

In article , lid
says...

On 3/25/2012 1:22 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Sun, 25 Mar 2012 01:24:02 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 25 Mar 2012 00:53:21 -0400, Ed wrote:
Let's define quality. It is a product that works and will last for
the time it is designed to.

That's a **** poor definition of quality in my opinion Ed. To me
"quality" is a concept that sets something above its competitors.
Whether that means something that lasts longer, looks better or
operates better than a competitor, it certainly does *not* mean that
it's just "Ok".

That goes back to my original definition of ISO. It assures a
consistent product. It does not assure a quality product as you
described above.

You either meet the standards set or you don't.

ISO does not set anything apart from it competitors, make it last
longer or operate better. Therefore, it is not a quality system, nor
does it assure a "quality" product.

Then how come part of following the ISO process requires the keeping of
"quality records"? It IS a "quality system" in that it is designed to ensure
*consistent* quality, to whatever degree YOU define the term "quality".

I think that Dave and Ed are using the term "quality" to mean "high-
quality" and totally ignoring the notion of "low quality".

Does a Rolls have no quality because a Ferrari can beat it on a
racetrack? Does the P-51 have no quality because an F-22 can fly rings
around it backwards?

On 3/25/2012 10:51 AM, RonB wrote:

firm. About a week later I got a call from one of the support
supervisors. The intent was to apologize and thank me for pointing
out some embarrassing errors in their publication. He admitted that
my jointer shipped after a very recent update and "translation" of
their manuals and they found similar errors in other manuals as well.
A day or so later I received an email to the same effect.

This goes straight to another "translation" issue regarding our food
supply that is of major concern, specifically regarding using the
"organic certification" process for food imported from China.

Apparently, and at least at one point and according a recent on air NPR
interview, the required process itself was never translated into
Mandarin, or any of the myriad other languages where the food is grown.
Consequently the process was basically, and conveniently ignored by the
Chinese, who ingeniously decided, along with complicit third party
inspectors, that simply affixing the “U.S.D.A. organic” label was
sufficient to make it so.

While that may no longer be the case, it certainly casts doubt on the
wisdom of relinquishing control of your food supply without first making
a point of understanding inherent cultural differences regarding what we
think of as morality, honesty and integrity.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

Ah yes, I have the same issue with the cultural differences with India.
I have been displaced many times, They have no problem breaking our
laws. My boss (Indian) asked me to commit 2 felonies. My co workers (all
Indian) thought it very unusual for me to refuse. They said I'd be gone
before anyone knew. So why not...

Ah to be a foreigner in your own country. God I love how screwed up we
are now.

On 3/25/2012 1:42 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 3/25/2012 10:51 AM, RonB wrote:

firm. About a week later I got a call from one of the support
supervisors. The intent was to apologize and thank me for pointing
out some embarrassing errors in their publication. He admitted that
my jointer shipped after a very recent update and "translation" of
their manuals and they found similar errors in other manuals as well.
A day or so later I received an email to the same effect.

This goes straight to another "translation" issue regarding our food
supply that is of major concern, specifically regarding using the
"organic certification" process for food imported from China.

Apparently, and at least at one point and according a recent on air NPR
interview, the required process itself was never translated into
Mandarin, or any of the myriad other languages where the food is grown.
Consequently the process was basically, and conveniently ignored by the
Chinese, who ingeniously decided, along with complicit third party
inspectors, that simply affixing the “U.S.D.A. organic” label was
sufficient to make it so.

While that may no longer be the case, it certainly casts doubt on the
wisdom of relinquishing control of your food supply without first making
a point of understanding inherent cultural differences regarding what we
think of as morality, honesty and integrity.

On 3/25/2012 12:55 PM, tiredofspam wrote:
Ah yes, I have the same issue with the cultural differences with India.
I have been displaced many times, They have no problem breaking our
laws. My boss (Indian) asked me to commit 2 felonies. My co workers (all
Indian) thought it very unusual for me to refuse. They said I'd be gone
before anyone knew. So why not...

Ah to be a foreigner in your own country. God I love how screwed up we
are now.

Got bit back in the the late nineties by the Indians in a similar scenario.

Our entire company website was copied, word for word including some
grammatical and spelling errors that had not been corrected at the time,
and used for the same Internet service that we were providing.

This included all the graphs, charts, photos and media we had
laboriously generated ourselves.

Not a damn thing could be done about it ...

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On Sun, 25 Mar 2012 09:59:37 -0500, Swingman wrote:




The point, Ed, is that China can manufacture "cheaply" because, using
cheap unskilled labor (and given the opportunity to so without
supervision), all regard for quality goes out the window.

The quality is better than you give credit for in many of the
companies. You left out environmental issues and permits, waste
management and safety.






This is a generalization to some extenet, sure ... but one that you can
take to the bank as far as statistical, business bottom line odds go.

A good case in point, proffered, once again, to take it out of the realm
of just my "opinion":

http://finance.fortune.cnn.com/2011/...ries-in-china/

Once again, some good products come out of China (I appreciate my iPad),
but arguably ONLY because of a rigid supervision program. It is NOT the
Chinese worker, or their masters, who are making that happen because of
an inherent quest for "quality". More companies, and now consumers, are
realizing that it takes more effort then its worth simply because of the
maxim regarding supervision above.

Hey, that is pretty much what I've been saying. Yes, they make crap,
but they can make good. If the buyers on this end specify crap, that
is what they get.


In short, increasingly when left to it own devices, China produces
mostly _cheap_ crap ... end of story.

The story continues . . . and will for decades

On Sun, 25 Mar 2012 10:47:43 -0500, Steve Turner
wrote:

On 3/25/2012 1:22 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Sun, 25 Mar 2012 01:24:02 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 25 Mar 2012 00:53:21 -0400, Ed wrote:
Let's define quality. It is a product that works and will last for
the time it is designed to.

That's a **** poor definition of quality in my opinion Ed. To me
"quality" is a concept that sets something above its competitors.
Whether that means something that lasts longer, looks better or
operates better than a competitor, it certainly does *not* mean that
it's just "Ok".

That goes back to my original definition of ISO. It assures a
consistent product. It does not assure a quality product as you
described above.

You either meet the standards set or you don't.

ISO does not set anything apart from it competitors, make it last
longer or operate better. Therefore, it is not a quality system, nor
does it assure a "quality" product.

Then how come part of following the ISO process requires the keeping of
"quality records"? It IS a "quality system" in that it is designed to ensure
*consistent* quality, to whatever degree YOU define the term "quality".

That was my original definition, a consistent product. If you
consider that a quality product, OK with me. Dave seemed to disagree
and think it is something above the others. I disagree on that point.

My point is, ISO does not guarantee a product better than others, It
just means it is what you say it is, be it a superior product or a
crap product. But consistent crap from box to box.

On Sun, 25 Mar 2012 17:37:45 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On Sun, 25 Mar 2012 10:47:43 -0500, Steve Turner
wrote:

On 3/25/2012 1:22 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Sun, 25 Mar 2012 01:24:02 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 25 Mar 2012 00:53:21 -0400, Ed wrote:
Let's define quality. It is a product that works and will last for
the time it is designed to.

That's a **** poor definition of quality in my opinion Ed. To me
"quality" is a concept that sets something above its competitors.
Whether that means something that lasts longer, looks better or
operates better than a competitor, it certainly does *not* mean that
it's just "Ok".

That goes back to my original definition of ISO. It assures a
consistent product. It does not assure a quality product as you
described above.

You either meet the standards set or you don't.

ISO does not set anything apart from it competitors, make it last
longer or operate better. Therefore, it is not a quality system, nor
does it assure a "quality" product.

Then how come part of following the ISO process requires the keeping of
"quality records"? It IS a "quality system" in that it is designed to ensure
*consistent* quality, to whatever degree YOU define the term "quality".

That was my original definition, a consistent product. If you
consider that a quality product, OK with me. Dave seemed to disagree
and think it is something above the others. I disagree on that point.

My point is, ISO does not guarantee a product better than others, It
just means it is what you say it is, be it a superior product or a
crap product. But consistent crap from box to box.

I'm with you, Ed. Quality has to go into the product before
consistency. Then the ISO procedures can ensure consistency and,
hopefully, quality. Good QA is necessary all along. I saw ISO coming
in back when I was an inspector, and hooted as I heard it being pawned
off as a quality control procedure. It ain't! (but it helps)

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"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the
government fears the people, there is liberty." - Thomas Jefferson