On Jan 31, 9:52*pm, "Max" wrote:
On Jan 30, 11:36 pm, RicodJour wrote:

Power tools are just an extension of the industrial revolution's aim
to obviate operator skill in favor of cheap labor.

Damn. *And all this time I thought it was all about efficiency.

Yes, of course. Efficiency to hire cheaper and fewer people. That's
where sabotage comes from.

Whenever a new technology increases efficiency, it starts out
expensive and the proletariat only get to play with it when it gets
cheap enough.

R

"RicodJour" wrote in message
...
On Jan 31, 8:06 pm, "John Grossbohlin"
wrote:
At last year's Woodworkers Showcase in Saratoga Springs, NY I used a 22"
12
pt Sandvik crosscut saw, marking gauge, pencil, 1/2" chisel, and my eyes
to
layout and cut dovetails during my presentation... My core topic was how
to
use reference surfaces and edges to guide your work (e.g., bench top,
edge
of board). In dovetailing, once you understand the relationships of the
parts and cuts the tools used become secondary.

Do you record the presentations you do? Any links to them to share?
I'd love to see that.

PS. this year's show is the last weekend of March. I'm doing a
presentation
on scrub planes.

You _had_ to bring that up! My #40 blade and lever cap went walkabout
some while back. You haven't seen them by any chance, have you?

There was a cameraman shooting but I don't know if it was recorded or just
projected on the monitor.... . I'll have to ask!

No stray plane parts found today... had to move many of my stationary tools
this evening and the only thing I found was a build up of saw dust
underneath the cabinet saw that the dust collector missed. ;~)

John

RicodJour wrote:


First project was a small box for their oil stone, next
was a tool box for their tools (this was expected to take the full
year or half year to complete), and then on to furniture.


Larry Jaques, See! Quality takes a little time!! :-)

Bill

On Mon, 31 Jan 2011 22:52:46 -0500, Bill wrote:

RicodJour wrote:


First project was a small box for their oil stone, next
was a tool box for their tools (this was expected to take the full
year or half year to complete), and then on to furniture.


Larry Jaques, See! Quality takes a little time!! :-)

I doan see no lightin' fixtyas, boss. Ah jess doan sees 'em.

--
If we attend continually and promptly to the little that
we can do, we shall ere long be surprised to find how
little remains that we cannot do. -- Samuel Butler

"Max" wrote in message
eb.com...

On Jan 30, 11:36 pm, RicodJour wrote:

Power tools are just an extension of the industrial revolution's aim
to obviate operator skill in favor of cheap labor.

Damn. And all this time I thought it was all about efficiency.



True. Power tools do not make a man less of a craftsman, it just makes him
more efficient.

"RicodJour" wrote in message
...
On Jan 31, 8:44 pm, "CW" wrote:
"RicodJour" wrote in message

Power tools are just an extension of the industrial revolution's aim
to obviate operator skill in favor of cheap labor. There's also the
question of cost in outfitting a shop. A complete joiner's shop back
in the day fit in a 3'x2'x2' box. Now a guy figures he can't do any
work unless he has ten grand in tools - to start. Journeymen
carpenters walked around with a roll with their tools inside, often
just the blades and bits, and made handles, benches and whatever else
was needed on the spot.

We've gained some with power tools, but we've lost just as much
because of them. I still wish that carpenters wore corduroy suits so
we could see at a glance who was in the brotherhood.

It is very obvious, by the above, that you do not build things for a
living.


I design and build everything I do.

Such as?

On 1/31/2011 8:51 PM, RicodJour wrote:
On Jan 31, 3:59 pm, wrote:


I'll buy that only when you can show me pictoral proof where either of
these guys has built a complete modern kitchen with their untailed
tools, bow saws and dovetail saws, one containing provisions for all the
modern conveniences and accouterments expected in today's high end
kitchens, and done in a sufficient time and manner to justify the labor
costs to make a living at it ... .

... until then, I say horsedookie ...

If woodworking to you is simply banging out 'modern' kitchens, then,
sure, you win. Funnily enough, I don't think MDF is wood and I'm
still on the fence about plywood being wood. I refuse to call working
something other than wood, woodworking - that's just me. It has
nothing to do with anyone else's preferences and predilections. You
like it, knock yourself out.

Problem here is that you ignored/didn't address the topic in my post in
which you chose to insert your opinions.

NBD, but doing so would have kept your assumptions from running rampant
down a path that doesn't exist.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Feb 1, 1:08*am, "CW" wrote:
"Max" wrote in message

eb.com...



On Jan 30, 11:36 pm, RicodJour wrote:

Power tools are just an extension of the industrial revolution's aim
to obviate operator skill in favor of cheap labor.

Damn. *And all this time I thought it was all about efficiency.

True. Power tools do not make a man less of a craftsman, it just makes him
more efficient.

....AND more accurate if he knows what he's doing.

Robatoy wrote in
:

On Feb 1, 1:08*am, "CW" wrote:

True. Power tools do not make a man less of a craftsman, it just
makes hi
m
more efficient.

...AND more accurate if he knows what he's doing.


You know... I think I can make a serious mistake with a hand tool just as
fast as I do with a power tool. Maybe there's a lower limit to the
efficiency/accuracy measurement. :-)

Puckdropper

On Feb 1, 1:08*am, "CW" wrote:
"Max" wrote in message
On Jan 30, 11:36 pm, RicodJour wrote:

Power tools are just an extension of the industrial revolution's aim
to obviate operator skill in favor of cheap labor.

Damn. *And all this time I thought it was all about efficiency.

True. Power tools do not make a man less of a craftsman

I agree with that for the most part. Let's try the converse:
Power tools do not make a man more of a craftsman.
Do you agree with that as well?

it just makes him more efficient.

Yes, just as learning to use his hand tools with more skill would make
him more efficient.

Nobody and nothing has a lock on efficiency. How many times have you
walked into an inefficiently set up shop that's brimming with the
latest and greatest tools? How many times have you seen a skilled
person doing something in an inefficient way?

R

On Feb 1, 1:13*am, "CW" wrote:
"RicodJour" wrote in message

...
On Jan 31, 8:44 pm, "CW" wrote:



"RicodJour" wrote in message

Power tools are just an extension of the industrial revolution's aim
to obviate operator skill in favor of cheap labor. There's also the
question of cost in outfitting a shop. A complete joiner's shop back
in the day fit in a 3'x2'x2' box. Now a guy figures he can't do any
work unless he has ten grand in tools - to start. Journeymen
carpenters walked around with a roll with their tools inside, often
just the blades and bits, and made handles, benches and whatever else
was needed on the spot.

We've gained some with power tools, but we've lost just as much
because of them. I still wish that carpenters wore corduroy suits so
we could see at a glance who was in the brotherhood.

It is very obvious, by the above, that you do not build things for a
living.
I design and build everything I do.

Such as?

What have I designed and built? Oh, fine, we're in the quiz portion
of the exam. BTW, you can check out my posting history if you want to
verify any of this, as you seem to be a skeptic.

As I said, I design and build everything I do - that was not always
the case. I built my first home addition with two friends during the
summer of 1975, after our junior year in high school. One friend's
father was in construction and he got the job, designed it, and we
built it. Concrete, framing, siding, roofing, the usual. By the time
I got to college we'd built a couple more additions, patios, decks,
etc. During college I worked for a construction manager and did
surveying work for my internship programs in Boston. Immediately
after college I worked for a professional model builder in NYC (a
recent thread over in alt.home.repair has more detail on that). After
that I worked for what was at the time the largest construction
manager in NYC to get experience. South Street Seaport being a
notable project, but the most enjoyable was a landmark renovation on
the UWS. I was project manager and superintendent (go figure) and
collaborated with the clerk of the works architect on designing the
details and selecting materials and hardware (the project was for that
architect's boss' firm's own offices).

Fast forward a bit, and I left and started my own design firm. Almost
all of it was renovation and remodeling work - some commercial, most
residential. Did freelance estimating so I could sit in front of the
tube, drink beer and earn $60/hour. I backed into contracting when I
got fed up with contractor's saying the things I designed couldn't be
built, or couldn't be built within the budget, and upsetting the
owners. From that point on, and for the next 15 years, I designed and
built everything. I only built two projects I didn't design, and I
did that for the money. On one I felt like a whore as it was a
commercial hairdresser on the second floor (interesting project for
other reasons, though), and on the other I enjoyed it because it was
for some ridiculously wealthy, yet surprisingly normal people's guest
house (who has a $2 million dollar guest house?!) entrance portico.
That was a wonderful place to work - stables, old landscaped grounds
and a grounds crew of 12.

On larger jobs I'd sub out some of the work, on small jobs I'd do it
all with maybe a helper or two, but I always was wearing boots,
getting my hands dirty and on several occasions getting blood on the
work. I always subbed out electrical and plumbing as this is required
by the building departments around here. They're also a helluva lot
faster than I am, though both would always ask for my assistance in
layout and fishing things through the buildings. I know how old
buildings are put together and can visualize in 3D really well. Other
than that what I did personally depended on the project and how much
money I wanted to keep in my pocket. Except for the two trades listed
above, anything else in the CSI was done by yours truly at one time or
another. Particularly the Specialties category. I would design
things into a project so I could learn how to do it. I would have
people pay me to learn on the job. So I picked up stained glass work,
fine woodworking, leatherwork, copper roofing, all sorts of things
where I felt there was a hole in my education.

An engineering degree and a degree in architecture do not in any way
provide the skills to build, and, to me at least, there's an
artificial separation between the different aspects of the built
form. I'd seen way too much of the finger pointing that goes on
between trades and between the designer and the contractor, and too
many compromised projects and budgets. I have no one to point a
finger at but me. I am one stop shopping.

Since this is a woodworking group, though you didn't say it, I would
suppose you are really asking what sort of woodworking I've done. A
lot. From tchotchkes to kitchens, from chests of drawers to steam-
bent laminated windows, custom doors. I haven't done hundreds of
kitchens or anything like that, as that would bore me. I do what I do
because I want to try new and different things and incorporate the
skills and talents that make me me.

As the years have passed I have found that what was exciting to me
back then is no longer as exciting. The whine of power tools annoys
me, and I have some hearing loss from being on job sites as well. I
find that my enjoyment comes more from (re)discovering the old ways of
working wood and using old hand tools. I like it, and obviously I
don't owe you or anyone else an explanation or an apology on that
front. I have also discovered that as I've gotten older I've become
more efficient in many ways, and that using power tools less
frequently hasn't greatly diminished my speed at all. I have no
interest in banging out kitchens for a buck or ten thousand bucks. It
just doesn't interest me. I realize in other circumstances I might
not be so fortunate and would have to accept work that I found
onerous, but, well, I am fortunate and I don't have to accept work
that doesn't interest me. Everyone should be so lucky. Even
skeptics.

R

BTW, your newsreader is doing some funny things when you quote, and/or
you're cutting out some formatting.

On Feb 1, 5:24 am, Swingman wrote:
On 1/31/2011 8:51 PM, RicodJour wrote:
On Jan 31, 3:59 pm, wrote:

I'll buy that only when you can show me pictoral proof where either of
these guys has built a complete modern kitchen with their untailed
tools, bow saws and dovetail saws, one containing provisions for all the
modern conveniences and accouterments expected in today's high end
kitchens, and done in a sufficient time and manner to justify the labor
costs to make a living at it ... .

... until then, I say horsedookie ...

If woodworking to you is simply banging out 'modern' kitchens, then,
sure, you win. Funnily enough, I don't think MDF is wood and I'm
still on the fence about plywood being wood. I refuse to call working
something other than wood, woodworking - that's just me. It has
nothing to do with anyone else's preferences and predilections. You
like it, knock yourself out.

Problem here is that you ignored/didn't address the topic in my post in
which you chose to insert your opinions.

NBD, but doing so would have kept your assumptions from running rampant
down a path that doesn't exist.

I don't answer set up questions such as, were you the stupidest kid on
your bus? Woodworking to me is not plywood and it is not just
kitchens, modern or otherwise. Woodworking is a series of steps, and
some of them benefit from power tools, for one reason or another, and
others power tools are just as likely to mess up the work, and are an
actual hindrance, for one reason or another. Perhaps the reason that
you feel power tools are faster in all aspects of woodworking is that
you have never seen a truly fast person with hand tools. That's not
much of a surprise as hand work is pretty much a lost art at this
point.

Let me ask you a question, which, of course you are free to ignore if
you feel it is a setup.

You are proud of your kitchens. If you could invest an unlimited
amount of money into an unlimited size shop, and had CNC everything
where you could design a kitchen in Sketchup and press a button and
the parts would all be precut, would that make you more or less proud
of your work?

And another - do you use story poles? Tick sticking? You probably
use a lot of old time techniques that are just as valid as they were
back in the day.

As far as the labor costs and that stuff - that's just marketing. If
someone can't figure out a way to market their stuff so people see the
value in the product and are willing to pay a premium for the work,
that's not the fault of any tool, power or hand.

R

On Feb 1, 8:20*am, Robatoy wrote:
On Feb 1, 1:08*am, "CW" wrote:

True. Power tools do not make a man less of a craftsman, it just makes him
more efficient.

...AND more accurate if he knows what he's doing.

More accurate? Elaborate please. Unless, of course, you're talking
about woodworking accuracy beyond a few thousandths. If you're
talking about four decimal places, then that's a waste of time and not
efficient.

R

On Feb 1, 1:10*pm, RicodJour wrote:
On Feb 1, 8:20*am, Robatoy wrote:

On Feb 1, 1:08*am, "CW" wrote:

True. Power tools do not make a man less of a craftsman, it just makes him
more efficient.

...AND more accurate if he knows what he's doing.

More accurate? *Elaborate please. *Unless, of course, you're talking
about woodworking accuracy beyond a few thousandths. *If you're
talking about four decimal places, then that's a waste of time and not
efficient.

R

Take exactly 1/4" off the side of a 2 x 6 it is the 1/4" strip I am
after.

Handsaw vs circular saw and fence...

On Tue, 01 Feb 2011 10:10:46 -0800, RicodJour wrote:

More accurate? Elaborate please. Unless, of course, you're talking
about woodworking accuracy beyond a few thousandths. If you're talking
about four decimal places, then that's a waste of time and not
efficient.

I'd suggest that any accuracy beyond 1/64" is wishful thinking. And for
a lot of us that ought to be 1/32". And neither lasts past the first
humidity change :-).

--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

On Jan 29, 1:15*pm, Larry Blanchard wrote:
I think I watched my last episode of Rough Cut this morning. *He built a
trestle table. *The only part that needed explanation was the breadboaed
ends. *His comment "All I've got left to do is glue on the ends" and that
was all he said. *Sheeesh!

I'm going to write to Woodcraft. *As an ex-employee I'm ashamed they're
sponsoring it.

--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

I just Recently watched my first episode of Rough Cut. My first
reaction was who is this idiot?
I then watched a few more episodes during the marathon on Create...

Tommy grew on me quickly, he's young and proud of his work. So what
if he describes a nice piece of wood as "sweet"? Yes, some detail is
left out but he only has 22 minutes or whatever TV is now. I also
like his appreciation of old work and how he brings in people to help
out. He doesn't need to act like he knows everything.

As one who worships at the altar of Norm I can remember the early
shows when Norm all but dunked each part in glue and power nailed
everything. But the best thing that Norm did for me was inspire me to
buy a few pieces of wood and cut them up and try putting them back
together as something useful. I hope Tommy Mac can stay on the air
and maybe inspire a few more people to try hacking apart a piece of
wood and building something with it.

On Mon, 31 Jan 2011 18:51:36 -0800, RicodJour wrote:

I also collect antique tools. I use antique tools on a daily basis. I
bought a tool collection from an estate sale - that guy had some eye and
had been collecting for years. So I got several workshops full in one
fell swoop. It was kinda, sorta 'cheating' I guess, but hey, the price
was right! So from that one purchase I have literally hundreds of hand
planes. I have pretty much the complete Stanley catalog, with a few
notable (read expensive) exceptions, tools that would fit right in with
Rob H's quizzes, coach building tools, pretty much any woodworking hand
tool you could think of.

I think I hate you :-). I also have the garage sale habit, but the best
I've ever done was either a 1948 Delta tablesaw or an old Stanley double
spokeshave that was like new.

BTW, there's a story on that spokeshave. I tried to find out how old it
was. Best I could do was pre-1910. So when antiques road show came to
town I took it in. The expert said it was from the 1800s (I forget the
exact year), was the best condition he'd ever seen, and could well have
been part of the first production run of that model. I thanked him for
the info and said I would be using the spokeshave. He looked at me and
said "Don't you dare!" - I think of that each time I even look at the
spokeshave :-).



--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

"Larry Blanchard" wrote

BTW, there's a story on that spokeshave. I tried to find out how old it
was. Best I could do was pre-1910. So when antiques road show came to
town I took it in. The expert said it was from the 1800s (I forget the
exact year), was the best condition he'd ever seen, and could well have
been part of the first production run of that model. I thanked him for
the info and said I would be using the spokeshave. He looked at me and
said "Don't you dare!" - I think of that each time I even look at the
spokeshave :-).

-----------------

Well......, when are you going to tell us??

HOW MUCH WAS IT WORTH???

tapping foot

"RicodJour" wrote in message
...

You used a lot of words saying that you used power tools when having to make
a living at it.

On Feb 1, 2:20*pm, "CW" wrote:
"RicodJour" wrote in message


You used a lot of words saying that you used power tools when having to make
a living at it.

And more years figuring out that I didn't need to.

R

On Feb 1, 1:58*pm, Larry Blanchard wrote:
On Mon, 31 Jan 2011 18:51:36 -0800, RicodJour wrote:
I also collect antique tools. *I use antique tools on a daily basis. I
bought a tool collection from an estate sale - that guy had some eye and
had been collecting for years. *So I got several workshops full in one
fell swoop. *It was kinda, sorta 'cheating' I guess, but hey, the price
was right! *So from that one purchase I have literally hundreds of hand
planes. *I have pretty much the complete Stanley catalog, with a few
notable (read expensive) exceptions, tools that would fit right in with
Rob H's quizzes, coach building tools, pretty much any woodworking hand
tool you could think of.

I think I hate you :-). *I also have the garage sale habit, but the best
I've ever done was either a 1948 Delta tablesaw or an old Stanley double
spokeshave that was like new.

BTW, there's a story on that spokeshave. *I tried to find out how old it
was. *Best I could do was pre-1910. *So when antiques road show came to
town I took it in. *The expert said it was from the 1800s (I forget the
exact year), was the best condition he'd ever seen, and could well have
been part of the first production run of that model. *I thanked him for
the info and said I would be using the spokeshave. *He looked at me and
said "Don't you dare!" - I think of that each time I even look at the
spokeshave :-).

Good for you! Life's too short to work with crappy tools. If you
have an oldie but goodie, by all means you should be using it. If
people give you grief, tell them that you're doing your best to make
all the other existing examples more valuable.

R

On Feb 1, 1:14*pm, Robatoy wrote:
On Feb 1, 1:10*pm, RicodJour wrote:

On Feb 1, 8:20*am, Robatoy wrote:

On Feb 1, 1:08*am, "CW" wrote:

True. Power tools do not make a man less of a craftsman, it just makes him
more efficient.

...AND more accurate if he knows what he's doing.

More accurate? *Elaborate please. *Unless, of course, you're talking
about woodworking accuracy beyond a few thousandths. *If you're
talking about four decimal places, then that's a waste of time and not
efficient.


Take exactly 1/4" off the side of a 2 x 6 * it is the 1/4" strip I am
after.

Handsaw vs circular saw and fence...

Okay, but where? Doing it on a roof? On a job site without power?

Try this one:
Piecing together some 1x stock to make a solid wood back for a cabinet
with T&G.

Stanley 48 vs whatever you want to use.
http://www.supertool.com/StanleyBG/stan7.htm#num48

Oh, I forgot to ask - do we include tool cost in the efficiency
calculations?

This is fun!

R

On 2/1/2011 12:07 PM, RicodJour wrote:
On Feb 1, 5:24 am, wrote:


Problem here is that you ignored/didn't address the topic in my post in
which you chose to insert your opinions.

NBD, but doing so would have kept your assumptions from running rampant
down a path that doesn't exist.

I don't answer set up questions such as, were you the stupidest kid on
your bus?

Woodworking to me is not plywood and it is not just
kitchens, modern or otherwise.

It is evident that "Kitchens" were simply used as an example to make a
point about tailed tools in my initial post, a fact which you continue
to ignore, but insist on misappropriating as a basis for your misguided
assumptions/purposes.

So, let's have a little 'show n' tell' to clear the air, shall we?

Just a sampling of my woodworking, such as it is (and obviously paltry
compared to a "real woodworker" of your apparent stature), is free for
the world to see in the link below, very little of which, you will note,
has anything to do with kitchens.

And, while we're tickled to have someone with your exalted expertise
offering opinions as how the world of woodworking is conducted, it would
be awfully upfront of you to actually show us some evidence of same.

(IIRC, this is not the first time this request has been made of you)

IOW, you indeed talk a good game, but do you really walk the talk?

Show us something besides hot air ... how about it?

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Jan 30, 12:41*pm, Swingman wrote:


Methinks the lad would quickly grab for a tailed tool or two, or more ...

Often our trueness to our Normite/Neander philosophy depends upon
whether you need to make a living at it or not.

Well, I have been sick. Otherwise, I don't think I would have missed
that chestnut.

I have made that argument many a time to the devoted *home
woodworker*, but they don't get it.

You can be as dedicated, take as long as you want, and be as true to
wood work as you think necessary to satisfy your inner Duncan Phyfe if
you aren't charged with making a living doing it day in and day out in
a hyper-competitive market.

Robert

On Feb 1, 3:08*pm, Swingman wrote:
On 2/1/2011 12:07 PM, RicodJour wrote:
On Feb 1, 5:24 am, *wrote:

Problem here is that you ignored/didn't address the topic in my post in
which you chose to insert your opinions.

NBD, but doing so would have kept your assumptions from running rampant
down a path that doesn't exist.

I don't answer set up questions such as, were you the stupidest kid on
your bus?

Woodworking to me is not plywood and it is not just kitchens, modern or otherwise.

It is evident that "Kitchens" were simply used as an example to make a
point about tailed tools in my initial post, a fact which you continue
to ignore, but insist on misappropriating as a basis for your misguided
assumptions/purposes.

So, let's have a little 'show n' tell' to clear the air, shall we?

Just a sampling of my woodworking, such as it is (and obviously paltry
compared to a "real woodworker" of your apparent stature), is free for
the world to see in the link below, very little of which, you will note,
has anything to do with kitchens.

And, while we're tickled to have someone with your exalted expertise
offering opinions as how the world of woodworking is conducted, it would
be awfully upfront of you to actually show us some evidence of same.

(IIRC, this is not the first time this request has been made of you)

IOW, you indeed talk a good game, but do you really walk the talk?

Show us something besides hot air ... how about it?

Nice straw man, Karl. Not biting - sorry. You have a web site -
wow. Exciting. I should get one one day. I just happen to have an
opinion you don't share, and somehow you seem to feel that's a threat
to you and you want to start whipping out dicks.

In essence you're calling me a liar - as if you can't tell from my
writing that I know what I'm talking about...yet you want me to post
pictures of my work. Hey Sparky, how would you even know they're my
work? I'm a liar, remember? Maybe I should stand in the
picture...but what do I look like? Sheesh. Think first, type later.

As an aside, I recently told a girlfriend to not bring a lot of
samples of her work to a store that was looking to hire. The place
put out a cattle call, and it was easy to imagine the interviewer
being rushed, manhandling your work for 15 or 20 seconds, and tossing
it on the end of the table. I respect my work and the work of other
people (yes, even machine work) too much to do that or have it done to
my work. I told her to just compliment all of the nice work that
she'd seen that people brought, and then apologize that she didn't
have samples to show because all of her work sold. Sorry, more
philosophy.

If I hurt your feelings, or you feel I impugned your work, that was
unintentional. What was intentional was you belittling me for sharing
some of my background and philosophy, and having the temerity to have
an opinion you did not share. I've already pointed out that I am not
the fastest guy with power or hand tools, but I'd put the finished
product up against anyone's. I'd lose sometimes, but I'd hold my own.

You shouldn't care what I do in my shop, so I'm not quite so sure why
this is an issue for you. What I object to is the erroneous belief
that 'progress', and in particular attempting to supplant Mens et
Manus with Batteries et Idiot-proof, is an ever upward trend. I
object to bull****. I present an alternative opinion and you view it
as some sort of threat to your manhood and want to start whipping out
dicks.

My point was, and still is, that power tools don't automatically make
the job faster and better. That skill with hand tools is a lost art
because people buy into the "latest and greatest" power tool crap.
That craftsmen are no longer coached, they're more an accidental
result. And yes, I blame power tools for a lot of that. Hand tools
wielded by skilled hands can be more enjoyable and just as profitable
for a one man band shop.

I have not advertised in twenty five years, haven't had business cards
printed up in twenty, don't have a web site, and don't try to drum up
work. It finds me. All of my business in that time has been by word
of mouth. I moved to New Orleans for a few years for a relationship
(don't _ever_ do that) and people were still calling to see if I'd be
interested in doing their project knowing full well that I lived 1500
miles away. Again, don't just read this, check my posting history if
you'd like. Unless you believe that I've been setting up my 'cover
story' on Usenet for years in anticipation of having to prove myself
to you.

I pick and choose what projects I do, and only projects that interest
me, or those for really good customers, make the cut. I turn work
down because I don't like the people, and don't want to work with/for
them.

And here you are saying, "Hey, I'm acting like a dick, impress me!"
That'll happen.

R

RicodJour wrote:
On Feb 1, 3:08 pm, wrote:
On 2/1/2011 12:07 PM, RicodJour wrote:
On Feb 1, 5:24 am, wrote:

Problem here is that you ignored/didn't address the topic in my post in
which you chose to insert your opinions.

NBD, but doing so would have kept your assumptions from running rampant
down a path that doesn't exist.

I don't answer set up questions such as, were you the stupidest kid on
your bus?

Woodworking to me is not plywood and it is not just kitchens, modern or otherwise.

RicodJour,

You must admit you slung a little mud Karl's way. You write quite
eloquently. However, it would be akin to you saying that you know
the C++ programming language better than me (which is plausible).
Basically, if I may be allowed to translate, he said, "put-up or
shut-up". Personally, I'm always interested in looking at superb
workmanship! I am watching with interest!

Bill





It is evident that "Kitchens" were simply used as an example to make a
point about tailed tools in my initial post, a fact which you continue
to ignore, but insist on misappropriating as a basis for your misguided
assumptions/purposes.

So, let's have a little 'show n' tell' to clear the air, shall we?

Just a sampling of my woodworking, such as it is (and obviously paltry
compared to a "real woodworker" of your apparent stature), is free for
the world to see in the link below, very little of which, you will note,
has anything to do with kitchens.

And, while we're tickled to have someone with your exalted expertise
offering opinions as how the world of woodworking is conducted, it would
be awfully upfront of you to actually show us some evidence of same.

(IIRC, this is not the first time this request has been made of you)

IOW, you indeed talk a good game, but do you really walk the talk?

Show us something besides hot air ... how about it?

Nice straw man, Karl. Not biting - sorry. You have a web site -
wow. Exciting. I should get one one day. I just happen to have an
opinion you don't share, and somehow you seem to feel that's a threat
to you and you want to start whipping out dicks.

In essence you're calling me a liar - as if you can't tell from my
writing that I know what I'm talking about...yet you want me to post
pictures of my work. Hey Sparky, how would you even know they're my
work? I'm a liar, remember? Maybe I should stand in the
picture...but what do I look like? Sheesh. Think first, type later.

As an aside, I recently told a girlfriend to not bring a lot of
samples of her work to a store that was looking to hire. The place
put out a cattle call, and it was easy to imagine the interviewer
being rushed, manhandling your work for 15 or 20 seconds, and tossing
it on the end of the table. I respect my work and the work of other
people (yes, even machine work) too much to do that or have it done to
my work. I told her to just compliment all of the nice work that
she'd seen that people brought, and then apologize that she didn't
have samples to show because all of her work sold. Sorry, more
philosophy.

If I hurt your feelings, or you feel I impugned your work, that was
unintentional. What was intentional was you belittling me for sharing
some of my background and philosophy, and having the temerity to have
an opinion you did not share. I've already pointed out that I am not
the fastest guy with power or hand tools, but I'd put the finished
product up against anyone's. I'd lose sometimes, but I'd hold my own.

You shouldn't care what I do in my shop, so I'm not quite so sure why
this is an issue for you. What I object to is the erroneous belief
that 'progress', and in particular attempting to supplant Mens et
Manus with Batteries et Idiot-proof, is an ever upward trend. I
object to bull****. I present an alternative opinion and you view it
as some sort of threat to your manhood and want to start whipping out
dicks.

My point was, and still is, that power tools don't automatically make
the job faster and better. That skill with hand tools is a lost art
because people buy into the "latest and greatest" power tool crap.
That craftsmen are no longer coached, they're more an accidental
result. And yes, I blame power tools for a lot of that. Hand tools
wielded by skilled hands can be more enjoyable and just as profitable
for a one man band shop.

I have not advertised in twenty five years, haven't had business cards
printed up in twenty, don't have a web site, and don't try to drum up
work. It finds me. All of my business in that time has been by word
of mouth. I moved to New Orleans for a few years for a relationship
(don't _ever_ do that) and people were still calling to see if I'd be
interested in doing their project knowing full well that I lived 1500
miles away. Again, don't just read this, check my posting history if
you'd like. Unless you believe that I've been setting up my 'cover
story' on Usenet for years in anticipation of having to prove myself
to you.

I pick and choose what projects I do, and only projects that interest
me, or those for really good customers, make the cut. I turn work
down because I don't like the people, and don't want to work with/for
them.

And here you are saying, "Hey, I'm acting like a dick, impress me!"
That'll happen.

R

On Tue, 1 Feb 2011 18:58:10 +0000 (UTC), Larry Blanchard
wrote:

On Mon, 31 Jan 2011 18:51:36 -0800, RicodJour wrote:

I also collect antique tools. I use antique tools on a daily basis. I
bought a tool collection from an estate sale - that guy had some eye and
had been collecting for years. So I got several workshops full in one
fell swoop. It was kinda, sorta 'cheating' I guess, but hey, the price
was right! So from that one purchase I have literally hundreds of hand
planes. I have pretty much the complete Stanley catalog, with a few
notable (read expensive) exceptions, tools that would fit right in with
Rob H's quizzes, coach building tools, pretty much any woodworking hand
tool you could think of.

I think I hate you :-). I also have the garage sale habit, but the best
I've ever done was either a 1948 Delta tablesaw or an old Stanley double
spokeshave that was like new.

BTW, there's a story on that spokeshave. I tried to find out how old it
was. Best I could do was pre-1910. So when antiques road show came to
town I took it in. The expert said it was from the 1800s (I forget the
exact year), was the best condition he'd ever seen, and could well have
been part of the first production run of that model. I thanked him for
the info and said I would be using the spokeshave. He looked at me and
said "Don't you dare!" - I think of that each time I even look at the
spokeshave :-).

Shoulda sold it to some rich yuppie sucker and bought an entire
matched set of Satanleys to replace it. Or trade it in for a SawStop
with accessories.

--
To the well-organized mind, death is but the next great adventure.
-- J. K. Rowling

On Jan 31, 9:51*pm, RicodJour wrote:
On Jan 31, 3:59 pm, Swingman wrote:

On 1/30/2011 10:36 PM, RicodJour wrote:

For every this-is-why-power-tools-are-faster scenario you could come
up with, I could come up with a scenario where hand tools are faster/
better. *If you choose plywood batch cutting, I say running off 12' of
custom molding to match period molding.

I'll buy that only when you can show me pictoral proof where either of
these guys has built a complete modern kitchen with their untailed
tools, bow saws and dovetail saws, one containing provisions for all the
modern conveniences and accouterments expected in today's high end
kitchens, and done in a sufficient time and manner to justify the labor
costs to make a living at it ... .

... until then, I say horsedookie ...

If woodworking to you is simply banging out 'modern' kitchens, then,
sure, you win. *Funnily enough, I don't think MDF is wood and I'm
still on the fence about plywood being wood. *I refuse to call working
something other than wood, woodworking - that's just me. *It has
nothing to do with anyone else's preferences and predilections. *You
like it, knock yourself out.

If we can't agree on what quality is, than there's no point in
bringing up speed. *The reason that plywood and 'modern' kitchens came
about partly due to a desire for _reasonable_ quality. *Primarily
plywood and power tools came about for a desire for speed. *Speed that
only highly skilled craftsmen could achieve. *Highly skilled craftsmen
are, and always have been, in short supply and they always get top
dollar. *This does not mesh well with Henry Ford's vision of the new
world order.

Wood and working wood has been around for thousands of years. *The
Romans used steel hand planes. *No superior joint has been developed
than a hand cut dovetail. *Some joints are faster, but there are no
better joints, and the dovetail has been around for thousands of
years. *I've seen lots of machine cut dovetail drawers give up the
ghost, but hand cut dovetails stay together far better. *You need to
trim the pins flush on a dovetail joint, do you reach for a sander?
Power planer? *No, of course not, you reach for a plane. *It's faster,
less likely to mess something up, and leaves a better finish.
Evidence of hand work is a better finish.

Which brings me to a bit of a tangent. *Have you ever done work that
came out so well it looked fake? *I did a recent patterned parquet
floor foyer entrance hall. *Walnut and white oak with walnut feature
strips, fairly complicated layout to mirror the ceiling layout.
Nice. *I cut all of the wood by hand and used hand scrapers to remove
the backing (fronting?) paper.* *I had a friend stop by to take a look
and I nearly died when he took a look and asked if it was linoleum. *I
was kind of ****ed when I realized he wasn't joking, then I realized
that in a sorta kinda way it was a compliment. *The floor was too good
- it did look fake. *Luckily God, humidity changes and a dog with long
nails has remedied that.

Back to our discusion (or my diatribe, depending on where you're
sitting).
Where has that quest for speed gotten us? *It's gotten us to the point
that we've lost tons of information about working wood. *Nobody sets
out to waste time...well, at least not when working, and the people
that came before us were no different. *Frank Klausz is legendary
nowadays, but talk to him. *He'll be the first one to tell you that
he's not the fastest dovetail chopper he's ever seen. *The guys that
did it back in the day did it each and every day, there were
apprenticeships (and not this union crap where a carpenter puts up
fooking drywall!), masters and journeymen, and they were just as smart
as you and me. *Your average guy would cut Klausz-speed dovetails, but
that came with experience and dedication, not dabbling

Power tools are just an extension of the industrial revolution's aim
to obviate operator skill in favor of cheap labor. *There's also the
question of cost in outfitting a shop. *A complete joiner's shop back
in the day fit in a 3'x2'x2' box. *Now a guy figures he can't do any
work unless he has ten grand in tools - to start. *Journeymen
carpenters walked around with a roll with their tools inside, often
just the blades and bits, and made handles, benches and whatever else
was needed on the spot.

We've gained some with power tools, but we've lost just as much
because of them. *I still wish that carpenters wore corduroy suits so
we could see at a glance who was in the brotherhood.

Sorry, don't buy it. Been hanging in woodworking shops for over 60 years
and the tool world has _never_ been more conducive to turning out a
higher volume of _quality_ work than it is at present.

Firstly, you are a son of the modern age. *If you said 160 years, a)
I'd be very impressed and b) I think you'd be singing a different
tune. *Power tools were the norm by the 1950's. *The old ways were
pretty much supplanted and lost by then. *At least in the US, home of
the "it's new so it must be better" mentality. *If speed is the only
ticket, buy IKEA. *Fine cabinets, nothing wrong with them, and they'll
last just as long as anything you'll make.

I also think we have different definitions of what the word quality
means. *From the cheap seats it seems you are confusing quality and
mass production begetting repeatability. *Mass production is nothing
without speed. *Quality is independent of speed. *Quality is what is
left when you take all of the other stuff away, but I kind of gather
you wouldn't be into a discussion of metaphysics as it relates to
woodworking, so I'll spare you and everybody else.

C'mom, gimme me some pictoral proof to back up your contention ... I've
got more of that on my side than you can wade through in a month of Sundays.

I'll tell you what, I'll relate a little story about how I came to be
involved in woodworking in the first place, and then you can relate
yours. *Maybe we can trace our differing viewpoints back to the
beginning.

I'd dabbled in little projects since I was a pup. *Building models and
cobbling things together. *I didn't own any tools at all. *I just used
my Dad's. *Dad was an orthodontist, ridiculously dexterous with his
hands, and meticulous as you'd ever want somebody who was going to be
sticking their hand in your mouth to be. *I grew up watching him do
stuff around the house. *Building shelves, boxes, little things. *He
had no training in woodworking, no shop, no real tools to speak of,
other than repurposed dental tools - of which there were hundreds.
His only 'serious' woodworking tools, were a power drill and a nice
hand saw, couple chisels. From him I learned that skill is in the
hands and mind, not in the tools. *He earned a pretty penny, and
preferred to spend the money on the family, rather than on a shop. *I
suppose if he had more time, fewer kids and wasn't a one-man band
medical practice, he would have had more time for bigger projects and
maybe he would have had the de-luxe shop. *Woulda, coulda, shoulda -
who knows.

Fast forward about ten years. *I'm in Cambridge, MA and I'd just
finished my finals after a grueling term, and it was a few days before
Christmas. *I went with my buddy to shop for some presents for
Christmas. *As we walked around Cambridge and window shopped, I became
depressed. *All I saw was **** and glitz. *I couldn't afford a lot and
didn't see anything that I would want to give as a gift. *The
depression turned into despondency as the night wore on and no
presents were bought. *This was going to be the worst Christmas ever -
wouldn't matter what I got if I gave lame ass presents.

We turned into a weird little mini-mall, for lack of a better term -
one of those things where there's an alley inside the building with a
number of shops opening off of that. *On the second floor we walked by
a big glass storefront. *The store look unoccupied, there was hardly
anything in it, just a few pieces of furniture scattered about. *Then
I noticed the furniture was different somehow - this wasn't a
furniture store showroom. *One of the pieces had some wood shavings
curled around the bottom of it. *This intrigued me, so we went in.

It turned out that that the place was showcasing some of the North
Bennett Street School's student work. *As I walked up to the piece
with the little curlies, a guy walked out from the back of the store,
and we started to talk. *He walked me through the different pieces in
the 'store' - nothing was for sale as far as I recall (_definitely_
couldn't have afforded it!). *He showed me some of the stuff that some
of the students made, and the progression of work as their abilities
increased. * First project was a small box for their oil stone, next
was a tool box for their tools (this was expected to take the full
year or half year to complete), and then on to furniture. *He took me
over to a chest of drawers and showed off the all wood construction,
no metal hardware at all, and the incredible fit of the, of course,
dovetailed drawers. *He pulled out one about half way and closed it
fairly rapidly. *I gaped. *All of the other drawers popped out the
exact same amount. *I knew it wasn't a trick, but it still felt like
looked like a trick. *He explained about using a hand plane to tweak
the fit of a drawer, showed me that the curlies were from a hand
scraper (I didn't even know what that was).

I left that store _pumped_. *I knew what I wanted to do for my
presents...I also knew that they wouldn't be ready on time. *This is a
tradition that I carry on to this day. *

I have all the power tools. *I have Festool out the yin yang (wish I
got into them years ago when I was more concerned with being an
'active' contractor), and all the other power tools that you would
imagine a designer/builder would have with a going concern. *The tools
were and are mine. *I did not supply tools to guys working for me, and
I take care of my tools, so most of them I still have. *I also have a
nasty addiction to garage sales, auctions and eBay, and simply find it
impossible to pass up a good deal. *I've picked up panel saws,
bandsaws, old iron from the 40's and 50's, etc., etc. *I have way, way
more power tools than I need.

I also collect antique tools. *I use antique tools on a daily basis.
I bought a tool collection from an estate sale - that guy had some eye
and had been collecting for years. *So I got several workshops full in
one fell swoop. *It was kinda, sorta 'cheating' I guess, but hey, the
price was right! *So from that one purchase I have literally hundreds
of hand planes. *I have pretty much the complete Stanley catalog, with
a few notable (read expensive) exceptions, tools that would fit right
in with Rob H's quizzes, coach building tools, pretty much any
woodworking hand tool you could think of. *These old tools bring me
far, far more enjoyment that any power tool, and I bought some of my
Festool stuff dog collars and chew toys. *My favorite chisel is from
1837, beautiful little thing. *I have a ~100 year old Two Cherries
chisel that I picked up when I bought a ship carpenter's tool chest.
That thing holds an edge like you would not believe. *I sharpen all my
other chisels two of three times for one sharpening of the Two
Cherries.

So of course I'm spoiled. *I have advantages that few people have with
my tool collection. *I have pretty much the exact tool I need, no
matter what I am doing. *I have the dedicated molding planes sitting
on a shelf that cut one specific profile. *I pick it up and it's ready
to go.

So you can tell I'm a tool junkie, by now, and I have an arsenal of
both hand and power tools at my disposal. *I am not the fastest person
with either, and I pick my battles. *But when I'm looking for quality,
and people are paying for it, we both enjoy it more when the hand
tools are broken out.

R

* More on the floor scraping (if anyone hasn't fallen asleep by now).

Normally I would have just sanded off the paper, like everybody else,
but that clogs paper and I wanted to try something a little different,
so I used the scrapers. *I was planning on writing an article about it
for a little historical flavor for one of the flooring trade journals
- I just never got around to writing the article. *I have a bunch, so
I tested and compared the Stanley 12, 12 1/2, 70 box scraper, 80, 81,
82, 83 and 112 *(I wish I had the 11). *Surprisingly enough, or maybe
not surprisingly at all, the 70 box scraper was the winner. *I guess
that should be no surprise because it was designed to remove paper
labels from wood shipping crates so they could be reused. *Hand
scraping was a _lot_ of work. *I would not want to do that everyday,
but it was not all that much slower than sanding it off and having to
change paper on the machine a couple of times. *Granted this was a
small foyer, and there's no way in hell that scraping off the paper on
a larger floor would make sense unless you were looking to punish
someone. *I still ended up sanding the floor as I don't have a
74...I've never even seen a 74, but I would liked to have tried it out
to see how it would have performed.

It woulda took me 2 hours to type all that...

RP

On 2/1/2011 4:11 PM, RicodJour wrote:
On Feb 1, 3:08 pm, wrote:
On 2/1/2011 12:07 PM, RicodJour wrote:

(IIRC, this is not the first time this request has been made of you)

IOW, you indeed talk a good game, but do you really walk the talk?

Show us something besides hot air ... how about it?

Nice straw man, Karl. Not biting - sorry. You have a web site -
wow. Exciting. I should get one one day.

Yabbut, don't look now ... first you must have some _Content_.

Hot air and opinions ain't gonna cut it in that regard.

I just happen to have an
opinion you don't share,

With all that supposed education, one would think minimum reading
comprehension would have gotten you over that misconception on the first
post you took upon yourself to reply.

Or is that just some more hot air??

and somehow you seem to feel that's a threat
to you and you want to start whipping out dicks.

Surprised you would bring that analogy up ... but, then again, you're
reluctance to do so is understandable at this point ... hot air wouldn't
get you far in the regard either.

Dude, anyone can talk a good game ... and you might well be the shining
example to all woodworkers that you think you are, but the fact remains
that at this point you are nothing more than hot air in byte form.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Tue, 01 Feb 2011 14:18:53 -0500, Lee Michaels wrote:

He looked at me and
said "Don't you dare!" - I think of that each time I even look at the
spokeshave :-).

-----------------

Well......, when are you going to tell us??

HOW MUCH WAS IT WORTH???

tapping foot


Actually, not all that much. Average price is in the $60-$90 range.
Since mine was so pristine, he said he'd price it at about $150 in his
shop. Nothing to get excited about.

--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

I have never watched Roy.
Thanks for the link, maybe I'll catch up ..
Never watched rough cut either.


On 1/30/2011 7:45 AM, 10x wrote:
In aweb.com,
Puckdropper wrote:

Maybe you could helpfully direct them to the episode of Woodwright's Shop
where Roy explained how the breadboard ends worked. *grin*

I think it was "Harvard Side Table."

Puckdropper


Try this...

http://www.pbs.org/woodwrightsshop/video/2900/2908.html


Joe
aka 10x

On Tue, 01 Feb 2011 14:11:42 -0800, RicodJour wrote:

My point was, and still is, that power tools don't automatically make
the job faster and better. That skill with hand tools is a lost art
because people buy into the "latest and greatest" power tool crap. That
craftsmen are no longer coached, they're more an accidental result. And
yes, I blame power tools for a lot of that. Hand tools wielded by
skilled hands can be more enjoyable and just as profitable for a one man
band shop.

Agreed. That said, I do use power tools a lot of the time. I caught a
lot of flak here a few years ago when I said I wouldn't put "hand made
by" on my work if I'd used power tools to build it. I still won't.

--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

On 2/1/2011 4:11 PM, RicodJour wrote:

and somehow you seem to feel that's a threat
to you and you want to start whipping out dicks.

And yes, my deck is indeed bigger than yours:

http://picasaweb.google.com/karlcail...Dfivea3faslAE#

Your turn ...

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On 2/1/11 6:58 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 2/1/2011 4:11 PM, RicodJour wrote:

and somehow you seem to feel that's a threat
to you and you want to start whipping out dicks.

And yes, my deck is indeed bigger than yours:

http://picasaweb.google.com/karlcail...Dfivea3faslAE#


Your turn ...


d@mn!t! I just spent about 20 seconds trying to find the "Like" button.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

"RP" wrote in message
...

snip

It woulda took me 2 hours to type all that...
RP

It would have taken you 10 seconds to snip that 16K of text before you
added your 10 words. Give the dial-up guys a break. Eh?
Art

RicodJour wrote:


I pick and choose what projects I do, and only projects that interest
me,... I turn work down because I don't like the people, and don't want
to work with/for them.


Hey - I figured out who you really are! You were the Soup Nazi, weren't
you???

--

-Mike-

On Feb 1, 7:58 pm, Swingman wrote:
On 2/1/2011 4:11 PM, RicodJour wrote:

and somehow you seem to feel that's a threat
to you and you want to start whipping out dicks.

And yes, my deck is indeed bigger than yours:

http://picasaweb.google.com/karlcail...Gv1sRgCLDfivea...

Your turn ...

Hi, Karl. Thanks for inviting me to play. This should be fun.
Straight off the bat I should point out that I admit you are a bigger
deck, but I am not quite sure what that thing in those pictures is
supposed to be. It almost looks like a deck, but I can't be quite
sure until it's finished. I guess you posted the link to those
pictures for me so I could help you out with some of the details. No
problem, I have a little free time so I'll work up a punchlist for
you. Don't worry, there's no charge!

I'll run through things in the rough order of the pictures and
indicate similar situations in subsequent photos by placing the
picture number in brackets, like so {1}.

1). Remove temporary wood lattice animal barrier {1 though 6} -
temporary barriers shall be made from orange plastic construction
barrier, not wood lattice. Orange barrier is cheaper, faster and can
be re-used.
http://www.homedepot.com/buy/buildin...ier-20640.html

2). Remove temporary steps used for access during construction {1}.
Remove concrete rat slab on debris fill at base of temporary steps
{1}.

3). Remove temporary railing {all}. Temporary safety barriers shall
not be made from finish materials (see Note 1).

4). Install temporary bracing to support deck {all}. Remove what
appear to be temporary concrete post blocks {all}. Excavate and place
bottom of permanent concrete piers a minimum of 12" below grade on
undisturbed soil as per IRC 403.1. Base dimensions or piers shall be
determined by local code requirements and soil conditions. Tops of
piers shall be 8" above grade. Reduce concrete pier dimensions above
grade to 1" greater in each direction than base of post size. Install
either cast-in-place (Simpson PBS), or post-installed (Simpson ABA)
post base connectors at all posts. Install Simpson BCS post caps at
all posts. All posts shall be centered on concrete piers to avoid
eccentric loading condition at piers {1,2,3,4,5,15}, and all support
posts shall be laid out symmetrically with equal spacing to avoid
condition shown at deck corner {15}.

5). Install fascia board to match decking at all perimeter framing.
Rabbet bottom interior edge of fascia boards to receive wood lattice.

6). Cut back deck boards to receive trim deck board to conceal
profiled edges {1,3,4,6,15,16,17}, as shown in: http://www.decks.com/article74.aspx
Install blocking as required to support picture frame trim board.
Picture frame trim boards shall overhang fascia board by 3/4".

7). Install composite post covers at posts supporting what appears to
be temporary roof structure.*

8). Investigate cause of apparent crack in foundation wall at top of
deck framing adjacent to temporary steps. {1} Verify that crack is
stable and not growing - reparge foundation wall.

9). Place 6" concrete slab on grade at new step location on 6"
compacted stone base.{1} New slab shall extend to foundation with
1/2" felt expansion joint separation, extend to the full width of the
deck end, and shall provide a lower landing depth equal to the width
of the steps. 6x6 welded wire mesh shall be centered in slab and
shall have 3" concrete coverage in all directions.

10). Install permanent steps with 4 treads and 4 stringers (or provide
composite decking manufacturer's literature confirming allowable span
of 16" or greater, and capable of carrying a 300# concentrated load in
the center of the span of one individual tread board as per code).
{1} Install riser boards to match composite decking, and providing
3/4" nosing. In lieu of riser boards, cut stringers to provide
minimum of 3/4" overhang of tread boards, and notch bottom of
stringers to accept 2x4 tie-board.

11). Verify existing railing posts conform to applicable code
requirements for attachment. Bolting posts only to band joist is not
acceptable without additional reinforcement connectors or blocking.

12). Reinstall deck railings. Joint compound shall not be used to
fill in railing fastener holes. {17} Manufacturer's matching filler or
concealed fasteners shall be utilized. Cut post and post covers to a
height of 2" above top of railing. Reinstall railing caps. Remove
adhesive label at post base. {2}

13). Deck railings shall be consistent throughout. Install matching
top and bottom rail at steps. {1} Baluster position shall maintain
consistent appearance adjoining posts. {11} Corner post at oblique
deck angle does not resolve railing transition. {11} Either two posts
shall be installed, or a built-up post that incorporates the change in
angle shall be installed. Submit drawing for approval.

14). Install lattice at deck perimeter. Lattice direction shall be
consistent and the outermost layer of lathing shall all be angled in
the same direction around the entire perimeter of the deck for
continuity. {3} All lattice panels shall appear continuous and there
shall be no discrepancy in elevation and alignment. {3}


* Temporary roof structure with 2x4 on the flat "beam", column layout,
straightness of stucco work, and electrical items are not covered
under this punchlist. I would be happy to provide a list of
recommended corrective measures at your request.

R

On Feb 2, 7:47*am, "Mike Marlow" wrote:
RicodJour wrote:

I pick and choose what projects I do, and only projects that interest
me,... *I turn work down because I don't like the people, and don't want
to work with/for them.

Hey - I figured out who you really are! *You were the Soup Nazi, weren't
you???

I wish I could grow a mustache that nice. I do like soup, though.

Seriously, I will have to consider the similarities.

R

On 2/4/2011 12:21 AM, RicodJour wrote:
On Feb 1, 7:58 pm, wrote:
On 2/1/2011 4:11 PM, RicodJour wrote:

and somehow you seem to feel that's a threat
to you and you want to start whipping out dicks.

And yes, my deck is indeed bigger than yours:

http://picasaweb.google.com/karlcail...Gv1sRgCLDfivea...

Your turn ...

Hi, Karl. Thanks for inviting me to play. This should be fun.
Straight off the bat I should point out that I admit you are a bigger
deck, but I am not quite sure what that thing in those pictures is
supposed to be. It almost looks like a deck, but I can't be quite
sure until it's finished. I guess you posted the link to those
pictures for me so I could help you out with some of the details. No
problem, I have a little free time so I'll work up a punchlist for
you. Don't worry, there's no charge!

LMAO ... you need to do something for that cabin fever, Bubba. Good
thing for you spring is just around the corner. Still a little mental
hygiene may be in order ... get out, go to a mall, mix with something
besides a keyboard. It'll do you good.

that should put me way ahead on the intrinsic worth of the advice being
proffered

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Feb 4, 9:13*am, Swingman wrote:
On 2/4/2011 12:21 AM, RicodJour wrote:



On Feb 1, 7:58 pm, *wrote:
On 2/1/2011 4:11 PM, RicodJour wrote:

and somehow you seem to feel that's a threat
to you and you want to start whipping out dicks.

And yes, my deck is indeed bigger than yours:

http://picasaweb.google.com/karlcail...Gv1sRgCLDfivea....

Your turn ...

Hi, Karl. *Thanks for inviting me to play. *This should be fun.
Straight off the bat I should point out that I admit you are a bigger
deck, but I am not quite sure what that thing in those pictures is
supposed to be. *It almost looks like a deck, but I can't be quite
sure until it's finished. *I guess you posted the link to those
pictures for me so I could help you out with some of the details. *No
problem, I have a little free time so I'll work up a punchlist for
you. *Don't worry, there's no charge!

LMAO ... you need to do something for that cabin fever, Bubba. Good
thing for you spring is just around the corner. Still a little mental
hygiene may be in order ... get out, go to a mall, mix with something
besides a keyboard. It'll do you good.

that should put me way ahead on the intrinsic worth of the advice being
proffered

Deflect as you will, you know that everything I mentioned is true.
Yes, there were some digs in there, but it's all factual based on
those pictures.

You ignore code, you allow and/or do shoddy workmanship (whether it's
your house or built for someone else - that wasn't clear), you
apparently wing all of your construction details and can't or won't
plan ahead.

You said you've spent 60 years hanging around woodshops. You should
have spent more time hanging around construction sites.

R