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I think I watched my last episode of Rough Cut this morning. He built a
trestle table. The only part that needed explanation was the breadboaed
ends. His comment "All I've got left to do is glue on the ends" and that
was all he said. Sheeesh!

I'm going to write to Woodcraft. As an ex-employee I'm ashamed they're
sponsoring it.

--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw
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On Jan 29, 1:15*pm, Larry Blanchard wrote:

I think I watched my last episode of Rough Cut this morning. *He built a
trestle table. *The only part that needed explanation was the breadboaed
ends. *His comment "All I've got left to do is glue on the ends" and that
was all he said. *Sheeesh!

I'm going to write to Woodcraft. *As an ex-employee I'm ashamed they're
sponsoring it.


They've been running a Rough Cut marathon on the tube here. I'd
already seen a number of them, and watched a couple more. They're not
the worst thing on TV, and better than some of the other shows - even
though it's his first season (I think), but the problem is that The
Woodwright's Shop is on the same channel and I couldn't help
contrasting the two shows.

Verdict - Roy Underhill by a country mile and running away. Roy is
definitely different than your average oh-take-me-seriously-please
host, but he so clearly knows the stuff backwards, forwards, and some
directions I don't even know, his enthusiasm is apparent and
contagious, he talks non-stop, literally, and there is never a pause,
never an Um, Sweet! or anything of that sort, and it certainly looks
like the show is shot in one go with no edits. While he's doing the
work!

If you don't like hand tools, the song of a sharp plane, and need to
hear a motor roaring to feel you're really working (or believing the
machine always does it faster), then Roy's show is certainly not for
you. Me? The more I watch the guy the more I appreciate him and what
he does.

R
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RicodJour wrote:

snip


If you don't like hand tools, the song of a sharp plane, and need to
hear a motor roaring to feel you're really working (or believing the
machine always does it faster), then Roy's show is certainly not for
you. Me? The more I watch the guy the more I appreciate him and what
he does.

R


Just curious--are those reruns or is Roy Underhill still making new shows?

Bill
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On Sat, 29 Jan 2011 14:07:08 -0500, Bill wrote:

RicodJour wrote:

snip


If you don't like hand tools, the song of a sharp plane, and need to
hear a motor roaring to feel you're really working (or believing the
machine always does it faster), then Roy's show is certainly not for
you. Me? The more I watch the guy the more I appreciate him and what
he does.

R


Just curious--are those reruns or is Roy Underhill still making new shows?

Bill


According to the web site Roy is in his 30th season and still making
new shows.

http://www.pbs.org/woodwrightsshop/about/index.html

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
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"Bill" wrote in message
...
RicodJour wrote:

snip


If you don't like hand tools, the song of a sharp plane, and need to
hear a motor roaring to feel you're really working (or believing the
machine always does it faster), then Roy's show is certainly not for
you. Me? The more I watch the guy the more I appreciate him and what
he does.

R


Just curious--are those reruns or is Roy Underhill still making new shows?



He's still shooting... and he has a school now:

http://www.pbs.org/woodwrightsshop/

http://www.woodwrightschool.com/

John



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John Grossbohlin wrote:

"Bill" wrote in message
...
RicodJour wrote:

snip


If you don't like hand tools, the song of a sharp plane, and need to
hear a motor roaring to feel you're really working (or believing the
machine always does it faster), then Roy's show is certainly not for
you. Me? The more I watch the guy the more I appreciate him and what
he does.

R


Just curious--are those reruns or is Roy Underhill still making new
shows?



He's still shooting... and he has a school now:

http://www.pbs.org/woodwrightsshop/

http://www.woodwrightschool.com/

John


I knew he had a new school. That's why I am surprised he is still making
new shows. Glad to hear it!

Bill

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On 1/29/2011 2:03 PM, RicodJour wrote:
On Jan 29, 1:15 pm, Larry wrote:

I think I watched my last episode of Rough Cut this morning. He built a
trestle table. The only part that needed explanation was the breadboaed
ends. His comment "All I've got left to do is glue on the ends" and that
was all he said. Sheeesh!

I'm going to write to Woodcraft. As an ex-employee I'm ashamed they're
sponsoring it.


They've been running a Rough Cut marathon on the tube here. I'd
already seen a number of them, and watched a couple more. They're not
the worst thing on TV, and better than some of the other shows - even
though it's his first season (I think), but the problem is that The
Woodwright's Shop is on the same channel and I couldn't help
contrasting the two shows.

Verdict - Roy Underhill by a country mile and running away. Roy is
definitely different than your average oh-take-me-seriously-please
host, but he so clearly knows the stuff backwards, forwards, and some
directions I don't even know, his enthusiasm is apparent and
contagious, he talks non-stop, literally, and there is never a pause,
never an Um, Sweet! or anything of that sort, and it certainly looks
like the show is shot in one go with no edits. While he's doing the
work!

If you don't like hand tools, the song of a sharp plane, and need to
hear a motor roaring to feel you're really working (or believing the
machine always does it faster), then Roy's show is certainly not for
you. Me? The more I watch the guy the more I appreciate him and what
he does.

R


When it comes to woodwork Roy Underhill has every one beat.

I became a dedicated viewer when he brought a 12" oak log into the shop
and cut two 2" planks with just his hatchet and a wedge. That was years
ago.

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The "Rough Cut" host may not be calling all the shots, as to what he
demonstrates and says. Woodcraft may not be just a sponsor, but may
be directly funding the show's production. The show hasn't been on
very long. Give them a little time to get their act/a better act,
together. Maybe they'd like the viewer's feedback, too.

Sonny
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In article m,
Puckdropper wrote:

Maybe you could helpfully direct them to the episode of Woodwright's Shop
where Roy explained how the breadboard ends worked. *grin*

I think it was "Harvard Side Table."

Puckdropper



Try this...

http://www.pbs.org/woodwrightsshop/video/2900/2908.html


Joe
aka 10x


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On Jan 29, 7:16*pm, Sonny wrote:
The "Rough Cut" host may not be calling all the shots, as to what he
demonstrates and says. *Woodcraft may not be just a sponsor, but may
be directly funding the show's production. *The show hasn't been on
very long. *Give them a little time to get their act/a better act,
together. *Maybe they'd like the viewer's feedback, too.

Sonny


Tommy Mac is sure he needs some feedback and he knows he's a little
rough. There is a thread on Lumberjocks where he addresses this. On
the Binghamton PBS station, he's bumped Norm out of his time slot. I
miis Norm but new stuff is hard to beat.
I think Tommy is real talented and is willing to show off some of his
skills and teach us less fortunate ones that do not have our own TV
shows how to do it. We should watch and be patient and see how he
evolves. I sure wish David Marks would come back. There's some real
talent there. I wonder if he got sick of people in his shop and gave
them the boot?

RP
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On Jan 29, 2:52*pm, "John Grossbohlin"
wrote:
"Bill" wrote in message

...

RicodJour wrote:


snip


If you don't like hand tools, the song of a sharp plane, and need to
hear a motor roaring to feel you're really working (or believing the
machine always does it faster), then Roy's show is certainly not for
you. *Me? *The more I watch the guy the more I appreciate him and what
he does.


R


Just curious--are those reruns or is Roy Underhill still making new shows?


He's still shooting... and he has a school now:

http://www.pbs.org/woodwrightsshop/

http://www.woodwrightschool.com/


I didn't know Roy started a school. Most excellent! The stuff on his
web site certainly made me smile.

"TOOLS: You’ll be doing early Anglo-American style joinery with
English-style tools. That’s what this class is about - early music
played on the original instruments. Many people like to work with
Japanese tools these days, but we will not be using them in this
class. As one respected teacher put it, “That would be like stir-
frying grits.”

I will have all the tools you’ll need for the workshop waiting on your
bench. You may certainly bring your own tools if you wish. Please note
that tape measures are not permitted in the building, Normite
propaganda will be denounced, and any tools with plastic handles must
be hidden when I walk by.

DRESS CODE: Dress code? In keeping with our efforts to make the
Woodwright’s School look as if it were 1937, please wear clothing that
would not look out of place in that time period. When you enter this
vintage environment, you become a part of it. I’ll have a few shop
coats to cover anyone who forgets and wears a logo T-shirt. We’ll
shoot a group photo for you to take home."

The guy's got a sense of humor. I wonder how much of that is edited
out for TV to be politically correct.

R
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On Sun, 30 Jan 2011 07:45:51 -0500, 10x wrote:

In article m,
Puckdropper wrote:

Maybe you could helpfully direct them to the episode of Woodwright's Shop
where Roy explained how the breadboard ends worked. *grin*

I think it was "Harvard Side Table."

Puckdropper


Try this...

http://www.pbs.org/woodwrightsshop/video/2900/2908.html


Lord Roy's vids online? Excellent!

--
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile,
hoping it will eat him last.
-- Sir Winston Churchill
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Ditto here in Central Ohio on PBS. The guys and gals on this newsgroup
may be able to figure out some the tings they leave out, but not me (AKA
extreme novice wanna be). Some nice items were made by the host and his
friends..
snip

They've been running a Rough Cut marathon on the tube here. I'd
already seen a number of them, and watched a couple more. They're not
the worst thing on TV, and better than some of the other shows - even
though it's his first season (I think), but the problem is that The
Woodwright's Shop is on the same channel and I couldn't help
contrasting the two shows.

Verdict - Roy Underhill by a country mile and running away. Roy is
definitely different than your average oh-take-me-seriously-please
host, but he so clearly knows the stuff backwards, forwards, and some
directions I don't even know, his enthusiasm is apparent and
contagious, he talks non-stop, literally, and there is never a pause,
never an Um, Sweet! or anything of that sort, and it certainly looks
like the show is shot in one go with no edits. While he's doing the
work!

If you don't like hand tools, the song of a sharp plane, and need to
hear a motor roaring to feel you're really working (or believing the
machine always does it faster), then Roy's show is certainly not for
you. Me? The more I watch the guy the more I appreciate him and what
he does.

R

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On Jan 30, 12:56*pm, Michael Kenefick wrote:

Ditto here in Central Ohio on PBS. *The guys and gals on this newsgroup
may be able to figure out some the tings they leave out, but not me (AKA
extreme novice wanna be). *Some nice items were made by the host and his
friends..


There's no argument if any show attracts more people into our 'sport',
then it's a good show. I think my main objection with Rough Cut is
that it tries to be all things to all people, and that's simply not
possible. Tommy Mac's got some serious chops, but it's almost as if
they're downplaying that (or editing it out) to showcase his
personality. When you contrast that with The Woodwright's Shop, where
it's impossible to ignore Roy's woodworking skill and enthusiasm _and_
his personality, it really accentuates what's missing in Rough Cut.

Do not get me wrong, I would be saddened if Rough Cut left the
airwaves (cables?). It's definitely a nice addition to the selection
of woodworking shows to watch, and I'm looking forward to seeing more
of them.

R


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On 1/30/2011 11:56 AM, Michael Kenefick wrote:

If you don't like hand tools, the song of a sharp plane, and need to
hear a motor roaring to feel you're really working (or believing the
machine always does it faster), then Roy's show is certainly not for
you. Me? The more I watch the guy the more I appreciate him and what
he does.


I like Roy, his show, appreciate what he does, and the fact that he is
also one of the nicest guys around ... but what do you reckon his
response would be if I told him that he, and one partner, must build, to
designer spec, 28 wall and base cabinets, 20 dovetailed drawers, 6 shop
built pullouts, 60 doors/drawer fronts, associated shelving, and install
them in a precise dimensioned location in 30 days of work?

Methinks the lad would quickly grab for a tailed tool or two, or more ...

Often our trueness to our Normite/Neander philosophy depends upon
whether you need to make a living at it or not.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)
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"RicodJour" wrote in message
...
On Jan 29, 2:52 pm, "John Grossbohlin"
wrote:
"Bill" wrote in message

...
Just curious--are those reruns or is Roy Underhill still making new
shows?


He's still shooting... and he has a school now:

http://www.pbs.org/woodwrightsshop/

http://www.woodwrightschool.com/


I didn't know Roy started a school. Most excellent! The stuff on his
web site certainly made me smile.


.....

The guy's got a sense of humor. I wonder how much of that is edited
out for TV to be politically correct.


Most of his shows are shot in one continuous take...

He is very funny and came out with some really funny things the times I've
been with him in person.

An example of this sarcasm is that I've got one of his Woodwrights Shop Y2K
Tool Kits -- it's a first aid kit!

Probably not news here but he's fond of saying "Woodworking beyond the
Norm."

John



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"Swingman" wrote in message
...
On 1/30/2011 11:56 AM, Michael Kenefick wrote:

If you don't like hand tools, the song of a sharp plane, and need to
hear a motor roaring to feel you're really working (or believing the
machine always does it faster), then Roy's show is certainly not for
you. Me? The more I watch the guy the more I appreciate him and what
he does.


I like Roy, his show, appreciate what he does, and the fact that he is
also one of the nicest guys around ... but what do you reckon his response
would be if I told him that he, and one partner, must build, to designer
spec, 28 wall and base cabinets, 20 dovetailed drawers, 6 shop built
pullouts, 60 doors/drawer fronts, associated shelving, and install them in
a precise dimensioned location in 30 days of work?

Methinks the lad would quickly grab for a tailed tool or two, or more ...

Often our trueness to our Normite/Neander philosophy depends upon whether
you need to make a living at it or not.


....or you're messing with sheet goods and paint. ;~)

John

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On 1/30/2011 1:04 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:

"Swingman" wrote in message
...
On 1/30/2011 11:56 AM, Michael Kenefick wrote:

If you don't like hand tools, the song of a sharp plane, and need to
hear a motor roaring to feel you're really working (or believing the
machine always does it faster), then Roy's show is certainly not for
you. Me? The more I watch the guy the more I appreciate him and what
he does.


I like Roy, his show, appreciate what he does, and the fact that he is
also one of the nicest guys around ... but what do you reckon his
response would be if I told him that he, and one partner, must build,
to designer spec, 28 wall and base cabinets, 20 dovetailed drawers, 6
shop built pullouts, 60 doors/drawer fronts, associated shelving, and
install them in a precise dimensioned location in 30 days of work?

Methinks the lad would quickly grab for a tailed tool or two, or more ...

Often our trueness to our Normite/Neander philosophy depends upon
whether you need to make a living at it or not.


...or you're messing with sheet goods and paint. ;~)


I don't paint ... I'm colorblind. Well, that's my excuse anyway. But, I
can certainly arrange it. ;0

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)
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On Jan 29, 1:15*pm, Larry Blanchard wrote:
I think I watched my last episode of Rough Cut this morning. *He built a
trestle table. *The only part that needed explanation was the breadboaed
ends. *His comment "All I've got left to do is glue on the ends" and that
was all he said. *Sheeesh!

I'm going to write to Woodcraft. *As an ex-employee I'm ashamed they're
sponsoring it.

--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw


We just found Rough Cut a week or so ago guys. We also watch Roy and
Norm and other WW Shows.

Guys, the other night my wife said out loud "I like him," when I
suggested watching Rough Cut.

But guys, his personality bugs me a bit guys as I, too, am most
interested in techniques and know damned well that that jig took him
more than five minutes to make.

Guys, I'd like to see a Woodworking On A Budget show where the host
used his own shop worn equipment instead of the latest and greatest
tools (available at WoodSmith & Company).



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On Sun, 30 Jan 2011 12:41:01 -0600, Swingman wrote:

On 1/30/2011 11:56 AM, Michael Kenefick wrote:

If you don't like hand tools, the song of a sharp plane, and need to
hear a motor roaring to feel you're really working (or believing the
machine always does it faster), then Roy's show is certainly not for
you. Me? The more I watch the guy the more I appreciate him and what
he does.


I like Roy, his show, appreciate what he does, and the fact that he is
also one of the nicest guys around ... but what do you reckon his
response would be if I told him that he, and one partner, must build, to
designer spec, 28 wall and base cabinets, 20 dovetailed drawers, 6 shop
built pullouts, 60 doors/drawer fronts, associated shelving, and install
them in a precise dimensioned location in 30 days of work?

Methinks the lad would quickly grab for a tailed tool or two, or more ...


I'm not so sure, Swingy. The man is QUICK! And have you ever watched
that handy Hungarian, Frank Klausz, make dovetails? He's quicker
doing up a drawer than a Normite is just setting up his first jig.
It's amazing. With Roy's love of woodworking, I think he'd likely go
with handtools everywhere.


Often our trueness to our Normite/Neander philosophy depends upon
whether you need to make a living at it or not.


I use power on my own projects when something is too delicate for
handtools. I use power almost exclusively on site for clients because
they won't pay me extra for Neanderwork.

--
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile,
hoping it will eat him last.
-- Sir Winston Churchill
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Larry Jaques wrote:
On Sun, 30 Jan 2011 12:41:01 -0600, wrote:

On 1/30/2011 11:56 AM, Michael Kenefick wrote:

If you don't like hand tools, the song of a sharp plane, and need to
hear a motor roaring to feel you're really working (or believing the
machine always does it faster), then Roy's show is certainly not for
you. Me? The more I watch the guy the more I appreciate him and what
he does.


I like Roy, his show, appreciate what he does, and the fact that he is
also one of the nicest guys around ... but what do you reckon his
response would be if I told him that he, and one partner, must build, to
designer spec, 28 wall and base cabinets, 20 dovetailed drawers, 6 shop
built pullouts, 60 doors/drawer fronts, associated shelving, and install
them in a precise dimensioned location in 30 days of work?

Methinks the lad would quickly grab for a tailed tool or two, or more ...


I'm not so sure, Swingy. The man is QUICK! And have you ever watched
that handy Hungarian, Frank Klausz, make dovetails? He's quicker
doing up a drawer than a Normite is just setting up his first jig.



I watched him do it today on "The Woodworking Shows" complimentary show
DVD. How the heck can he turn his bow saw so quick when he's cutting out
the waste between tenons??? I don't have a saw like his, but it's
amazing (he probably did some trimming, but that part wasn't show it in
the DVD).

Bill




It's amazing. With Roy's love of woodworking, I think he'd likely go
with handtools everywhere.


Often our trueness to our Normite/Neander philosophy depends upon
whether you need to make a living at it or not.


I use power on my own projects when something is too delicate for
handtools. I use power almost exclusively on site for clients because
they won't pay me extra for Neanderwork.

--
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile,
hoping it will eat him last.
-- Sir Winston Churchill


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On 1/30/2011 2:53 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Sun, 30 Jan 2011 12:41:01 -0600, wrote:



Methinks the lad would quickly grab for a tailed tool or two, or more ...


I'm not so sure, Swingy. The man is QUICK! And have you ever watched
that handy Hungarian, Frank Klausz, make dovetails? He's quicker
doing up a drawer than a Normite is just setting up his first jig.
It's amazing. With Roy's love of woodworking, I think he'd likely go
with handtools everywhere.


OK ... that takes care of a few drawer SIDES. Now, let's get all that
plywood batchcut ...

Often our trueness to our Normite/Neander philosophy depends upon
whether you need to make a living at it or not.


I use power on my own projects when something is too delicate for
handtools. I use power almost exclusively on site for clients because
they won't pay me extra for Neanderwork.


Just the opposite, I use handtools on my projects when something is too
delicate for power tools ... g

Hey, I'm Neander to the extent that all my chisels and planes are kept
sharp and in fine fettle ... most of the time.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)
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On Sun, 30 Jan 2011 15:17:22 -0600, Swingman wrote:

On 1/30/2011 2:53 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Sun, 30 Jan 2011 12:41:01 -0600, wrote:



Methinks the lad would quickly grab for a tailed tool or two, or more ...


I'm not so sure, Swingy. The man is QUICK! And have you ever watched
that handy Hungarian, Frank Klausz, make dovetails? He's quicker
doing up a drawer than a Normite is just setting up his first jig.
It's amazing. With Roy's love of woodworking, I think he'd likely go
with handtools everywhere.


OK ... that takes care of a few drawer SIDES. Now, let's get all that
plywood batchcut ...


Hell, he wouldn't use that crap. He's glueup and use real wood, sir.


Often our trueness to our Normite/Neander philosophy depends upon
whether you need to make a living at it or not.


I use power on my own projects when something is too delicate for
handtools. I use power almost exclusively on site for clients because
they won't pay me extra for Neanderwork.


Just the opposite, I use handtools on my projects when something is too
delicate for power tools ... g


You take an RCH off the length of a board with a Disston instead of a
CMS, do ya? I've tried it with my ryoba, too, and the CMS wins every
time. I love that ryoba, though. Got it at Japan Woodworker.

I got this one for $25 delivered (long ago) with a coupon from FWW:
http://tinyurl.com/6e2llpn

Here's the festering version for you, Toy, and Leon:
http://tinyurl.com/6edakhx


Hey, I'm Neander to the extent that all my chisels and planes are kept
sharp and in fine fettle ... most of the time.


Bueno, bwana.

--
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile,
hoping it will eat him last.
-- Sir Winston Churchill


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"Bill" wrote in message ...

I watched him do it today on "The Woodworking Shows" complimentary show
DVD. How the heck can he turn his bow saw so quick when he's cutting out
the waste between tenons??? I don't have a saw like his, but it's
amazing (he probably did some trimming, but that part wasn't show it in
the DVD).

Bill



A few years ago at one of TWWS I saw a guy cut around a corner
with a bowsaw without rotating the frame. After his presentation I
took a look at his bowsaw. It had a 90 degree twist in the center of the
blade (for maybe 1/4 or less of the blade length). So using the front
section he could cut straight down, the center turned the corner and the
rear section cut horizontally. Maybe Klausz did it like that?
Art


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Artemus wrote:
wrote in message ...

I watched him do it today on "The Woodworking Shows" complimentary show
DVD. How the heck can he turn his bow saw so quick when he's cutting out
the waste between tenons??? I don't have a saw like his, but it's
amazing (he probably did some trimming, but that part wasn't show it in
the DVD).

Bill



A few years ago at one of TWWS I saw a guy cut around a corner
with a bowsaw without rotating the frame. After his presentation I
took a look at his bowsaw. It had a 90 degree twist in the center of the
blade (for maybe 1/4 or less of the blade length). So using the front
section he could cut straight down, the center turned the corner and the
rear section cut horizontally. Maybe Klausz did it like that?
Art


Maybe so--is was Just Too Easy. When I think about a saw blade bent that
way it seems to make alot of sense. I'll another look at the dvd and
see what I can see. Thank you for making your post!

Bill


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Artemus wrote:
wrote in message ...

I watched him do it today on "The Woodworking Shows" complimentary show
DVD. How the heck can he turn his bow saw so quick when he's cutting out
the waste between tenons??? I don't have a saw like his, but it's
amazing (he probably did some trimming, but that part wasn't show it in
the DVD).

Bill



A few years ago at one of TWWS I saw a guy cut around a corner
with a bowsaw without rotating the frame. After his presentation I
took a look at his bowsaw. It had a 90 degree twist in the center of the
blade (for maybe 1/4 or less of the blade length). So using the front
section he could cut straight down, the center turned the corner and the
rear section cut horizontally. Maybe Klausz did it like that?
Art


In case anyone is interested in this, I'm reporting from the DVD. Klausz
uses a bow saw with about a 1 1/2" blade to cut his pins, vertically.
Then he uses another bow saw (he calls his "tenon cut-out saw") that has
about a 3/8" blade with a 90 degree twist near the end. The twist occurs
over several inches. Insert blade into previous vertical cut, push a
little, and you're cutting horizontally. Slick.

Bill
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On Jan 30, 4:17*pm, Swingman wrote:
On 1/30/2011 2:53 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Sun, 30 Jan 2011 12:41:01 -0600, *wrote:


Methinks the lad would quickly grab for a tailed tool or two, or more ....


I'm not so sure, Swingy. *The man is QUICK! *And have you ever watched
that handy Hungarian, Frank Klausz, make dovetails? *He's quicker
doing up a drawer than a Normite is just setting up his first jig.
It's amazing. *With Roy's love of woodworking, I think he'd likely go
with handtools everywhere.


I saw Klausz cut a drawer at a local woodworking club meeting. The
guy was so quick I didn't know whether to laugh or cry, so I did
both. He spoke about laying out dovetails on graduated drawers by
eye, and you could hear murmurrs of "WTF?" To do the same thing with
power tools would require jig modifications for every drawer, and they
still wouldn't have that hand-cut tiny-pin dovetail look. They simply
look better.

OK ... that takes care of a few drawer SIDES. Now, let's get all that
plywood batchcut ...


It's a little know fact that that's why power tools were invented.
They had all of this plywood laying about and no quick way to cut it,
so Ben Franklin pulled some electrons out of a cloud and made
electricity for the first time. The first power tool was discovered
by the guys watching another guy get zapped by some of them electrons
while he was using a hand saw. The current running through the guy's
body made him jerk so fast that he cut the board lickety split. The
rest is history.

For every this-is-why-power-tools-are-faster scenario you could come
up with, I could come up with a scenario where hand tools are faster/
better. If you choose plywood batch cutting, I say running off 12' of
custom molding to match period molding.

Power tools are just an extension of the industrial revolution's aim
to obviate operator skill in favor of cheap labor. There's also the
question of cost in outfitting a shop. A complete joiner's shop back
in the day fit in a 3'x2'x2' box. Now a guy figures he can't do any
work unless he has ten grand in tools - to start. Journeymen
carpenters walked around with a roll with their tools inside, often
just the blades and bits, and made handles, benches and whatever else
was needed on the spot.

We've gained some with power tools, but we've lost just as much
because of them. I still wish that carpenters wore corduroy suits so
we could see at a glance who was in the brotherhood.

R
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On Sun, 30 Jan 2011 18:04:18 -0800, "Artemus"
wrote:


"Bill" wrote in message ...

I watched him do it today on "The Woodworking Shows" complimentary show
DVD. How the heck can he turn his bow saw so quick when he's cutting out
the waste between tenons??? I don't have a saw like his, but it's
amazing (he probably did some trimming, but that part wasn't show it in
the DVD).

Bill



A few years ago at one of TWWS I saw a guy cut around a corner
with a bowsaw without rotating the frame. After his presentation I
took a look at his bowsaw. It had a 90 degree twist in the center of the
blade (for maybe 1/4 or less of the blade length). So using the front
section he could cut straight down, the center turned the corner and the
rear section cut horizontally. Maybe Klausz did it like that?


Frank used chisels and dovetail saws, no others, in the classes I
helped him with at the American WW Shows in Ontario, CA a decade ago.
I volunteered as a gofer. He also did a 3-day seminar on woodworking
in Sandy Eggo a few years before that. I had a blast.

Here's the saw he was using for the Am WW Show classes:
http://www.craftsmanstudio.com/html_p/A!500.htm

I had bought a French-made Lee Valley dovie saw, but _much_ prefer my
ryoba for fine cuts now. I need a new hardwood blade for it, though.

--
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile,
hoping it will eat him last.
-- Sir Winston Churchill


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On Jan 31, 12:15*am, Larry Jaques
wrote:
On Sun, 30 Jan 2011 18:04:18 -0800, "Artemus"
wrote:





"Bill" wrote in ...


I watched him do it today on "The Woodworking Shows" complimentary show
DVD. How the heck can he turn his bow saw so quick when he's cutting out
the waste between tenons??? *I don't have a saw like his, but it's
amazing (he probably did some trimming, but that part wasn't show it in
the DVD).


Bill


A few years ago at one of TWWS I saw a guy cut around a corner
with a bowsaw without rotating the frame. *After his presentation I
took a look at his bowsaw. *It had a 90 degree twist in the center of the
blade (for maybe 1/4 or less of the blade length). *So using the front
section he could cut straight down, the center turned the corner and the
rear section cut horizontally. *Maybe Klausz did it like that?


Frank used chisels and dovetail saws, no others, in the classes I
helped him with at the American WW Shows in Ontario, CA a decade ago.
I volunteered as a gofer. *He also did a 3-day seminar on woodworking
in Sandy Eggo a few years before that. *I had a blast.

Here's the saw he was using for the Am WW Show classes:http://www.craftsmanstudio.com/html_p/A!500.htm


When I saw Klausz do his thing, I guess about four years ago, he was
using this saw:
http://www.adriatools.com/handsaw/dovetail_saw.html

I don't have one, but in checking out that page I was fairly well
shocked to see that Adria offers a 100% money back guarantee for a
year. That's confidence in your tool quality, fer sure.

R
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On 1/30/2011 10:36 PM, RicodJour wrote:

For every this-is-why-power-tools-are-faster scenario you could come
up with, I could come up with a scenario where hand tools are faster/
better. If you choose plywood batch cutting, I say running off 12' of
custom molding to match period molding.


I'll buy that only when you can show me pictoral proof where either of
these guys has built a complete modern kitchen with their untailed
tools, bow saws and dovetail saws, one containing provisions for all the
modern conveniences and accouterments expected in today's high end
kitchens, and done in a sufficient time and manner to justify the labor
costs to make a living at it ... .

.... until then, I say horsedookie ...

Power tools are just an extension of the industrial revolution's aim
to obviate operator skill in favor of cheap labor. There's also the
question of cost in outfitting a shop. A complete joiner's shop back
in the day fit in a 3'x2'x2' box. Now a guy figures he can't do any
work unless he has ten grand in tools - to start. Journeymen
carpenters walked around with a roll with their tools inside, often
just the blades and bits, and made handles, benches and whatever else
was needed on the spot.

We've gained some with power tools, but we've lost just as much
because of them. I still wish that carpenters wore corduroy suits so
we could see at a glance who was in the brotherhood.


Sorry, don't buy it. Been hanging in woodworking shops for over 60 years
and the tool world has _never_ been more conducive to turning out a
higher volume of _quality_ work than it is at present.

C'mom, gimme me some pictoral proof to back up your contention ... I've
got more of that on my side than you can wade through in a month of Sundays.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)
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On Jan 30, 11:36*pm, RicodJour wrote:

Power tools are just an extension of the industrial revolution's aim
to obviate operator skill in favor of cheap labor.


What a crock.... A power tool conspiracy???
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"RicodJour" wrote in message
...
On Jan 30, 4:17 pm, Swingman wrote:
On 1/30/2011 2:53 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Sun, 30 Jan 2011 12:41:01 -0600, wrote:


Methinks the lad would quickly grab for a tailed tool or two, or more
...


I'm not so sure, Swingy. The man is QUICK! And have you ever watched
that handy Hungarian, Frank Klausz, make dovetails? He's quicker
doing up a drawer than a Normite is just setting up his first jig.
It's amazing. With Roy's love of woodworking, I think he'd likely go
with handtools everywhere.


vI saw Klausz cut a drawer at a local woodworking club meeting. The
guy was so quick I didn't know whether to laugh or cry, so I did
both. He spoke about laying out dovetails on graduated drawers by
eye, and you could hear murmurrs of "WTF?" To do the same thing with
power tools would require jig modifications for every drawer, and they
still wouldn't have that hand-cut tiny-pin dovetail look. They simply
look better.


At last year's Woodworkers Showcase in Saratoga Springs, NY I used a 22" 12
pt Sandvik crosscut saw, marking gauge, pencil, 1/2" chisel, and my eyes to
layout and cut dovetails during my presentation... My core topic was how to
use reference surfaces and edges to guide your work (e.g., bench top, edge
of board). In dovetailing, once you understand the relationships of the
parts and cuts the tools used become secondary.

John

PS. this year's show is the last weekend of March. I'm doing a presentation
on scrub planes.

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"RicodJour" wrote in message
...
Power tools are just an extension of the industrial revolution's aim
to obviate operator skill in favor of cheap labor. There's also the
question of cost in outfitting a shop. A complete joiner's shop back
in the day fit in a 3'x2'x2' box. Now a guy figures he can't do any
work unless he has ten grand in tools - to start. Journeymen
carpenters walked around with a roll with their tools inside, often
just the blades and bits, and made handles, benches and whatever else
was needed on the spot.

We've gained some with power tools, but we've lost just as much
because of them. I still wish that carpenters wore corduroy suits so
we could see at a glance who was in the brotherhood.

It is very obvious, by the above, that you do not build things for a living.




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On Jan 31, 3:59 pm, Swingman wrote:
On 1/30/2011 10:36 PM, RicodJour wrote:

For every this-is-why-power-tools-are-faster scenario you could come
up with, I could come up with a scenario where hand tools are faster/
better. If you choose plywood batch cutting, I say running off 12' of
custom molding to match period molding.


I'll buy that only when you can show me pictoral proof where either of
these guys has built a complete modern kitchen with their untailed
tools, bow saws and dovetail saws, one containing provisions for all the
modern conveniences and accouterments expected in today's high end
kitchens, and done in a sufficient time and manner to justify the labor
costs to make a living at it ... .

... until then, I say horsedookie ...


If woodworking to you is simply banging out 'modern' kitchens, then,
sure, you win. Funnily enough, I don't think MDF is wood and I'm
still on the fence about plywood being wood. I refuse to call working
something other than wood, woodworking - that's just me. It has
nothing to do with anyone else's preferences and predilections. You
like it, knock yourself out.

If we can't agree on what quality is, than there's no point in
bringing up speed. The reason that plywood and 'modern' kitchens came
about partly due to a desire for _reasonable_ quality. Primarily
plywood and power tools came about for a desire for speed. Speed that
only highly skilled craftsmen could achieve. Highly skilled craftsmen
are, and always have been, in short supply and they always get top
dollar. This does not mesh well with Henry Ford's vision of the new
world order.

Wood and working wood has been around for thousands of years. The
Romans used steel hand planes. No superior joint has been developed
than a hand cut dovetail. Some joints are faster, but there are no
better joints, and the dovetail has been around for thousands of
years. I've seen lots of machine cut dovetail drawers give up the
ghost, but hand cut dovetails stay together far better. You need to
trim the pins flush on a dovetail joint, do you reach for a sander?
Power planer? No, of course not, you reach for a plane. It's faster,
less likely to mess something up, and leaves a better finish.
Evidence of hand work is a better finish.

Which brings me to a bit of a tangent. Have you ever done work that
came out so well it looked fake? I did a recent patterned parquet
floor foyer entrance hall. Walnut and white oak with walnut feature
strips, fairly complicated layout to mirror the ceiling layout.
Nice. I cut all of the wood by hand and used hand scrapers to remove
the backing (fronting?) paper.* I had a friend stop by to take a look
and I nearly died when he took a look and asked if it was linoleum. I
was kind of ****ed when I realized he wasn't joking, then I realized
that in a sorta kinda way it was a compliment. The floor was too good
- it did look fake. Luckily God, humidity changes and a dog with long
nails has remedied that.

Back to our discusion (or my diatribe, depending on where you're
sitting).
Where has that quest for speed gotten us? It's gotten us to the point
that we've lost tons of information about working wood. Nobody sets
out to waste time...well, at least not when working, and the people
that came before us were no different. Frank Klausz is legendary
nowadays, but talk to him. He'll be the first one to tell you that
he's not the fastest dovetail chopper he's ever seen. The guys that
did it back in the day did it each and every day, there were
apprenticeships (and not this union crap where a carpenter puts up
fooking drywall!), masters and journeymen, and they were just as smart
as you and me. Your average guy would cut Klausz-speed dovetails, but
that came with experience and dedication, not dabbling

Power tools are just an extension of the industrial revolution's aim
to obviate operator skill in favor of cheap labor. There's also the
question of cost in outfitting a shop. A complete joiner's shop back
in the day fit in a 3'x2'x2' box. Now a guy figures he can't do any
work unless he has ten grand in tools - to start. Journeymen
carpenters walked around with a roll with their tools inside, often
just the blades and bits, and made handles, benches and whatever else
was needed on the spot.


We've gained some with power tools, but we've lost just as much
because of them. I still wish that carpenters wore corduroy suits so
we could see at a glance who was in the brotherhood.


Sorry, don't buy it. Been hanging in woodworking shops for over 60 years
and the tool world has _never_ been more conducive to turning out a
higher volume of _quality_ work than it is at present.


Firstly, you are a son of the modern age. If you said 160 years, a)
I'd be very impressed and b) I think you'd be singing a different
tune. Power tools were the norm by the 1950's. The old ways were
pretty much supplanted and lost by then. At least in the US, home of
the "it's new so it must be better" mentality. If speed is the only
ticket, buy IKEA. Fine cabinets, nothing wrong with them, and they'll
last just as long as anything you'll make.

I also think we have different definitions of what the word quality
means. From the cheap seats it seems you are confusing quality and
mass production begetting repeatability. Mass production is nothing
without speed. Quality is independent of speed. Quality is what is
left when you take all of the other stuff away, but I kind of gather
you wouldn't be into a discussion of metaphysics as it relates to
woodworking, so I'll spare you and everybody else.

C'mom, gimme me some pictoral proof to back up your contention ... I've
got more of that on my side than you can wade through in a month of Sundays.


I'll tell you what, I'll relate a little story about how I came to be
involved in woodworking in the first place, and then you can relate
yours. Maybe we can trace our differing viewpoints back to the
beginning.

I'd dabbled in little projects since I was a pup. Building models and
cobbling things together. I didn't own any tools at all. I just used
my Dad's. Dad was an orthodontist, ridiculously dexterous with his
hands, and meticulous as you'd ever want somebody who was going to be
sticking their hand in your mouth to be. I grew up watching him do
stuff around the house. Building shelves, boxes, little things. He
had no training in woodworking, no shop, no real tools to speak of,
other than repurposed dental tools - of which there were hundreds.
His only 'serious' woodworking tools, were a power drill and a nice
hand saw, couple chisels. From him I learned that skill is in the
hands and mind, not in the tools. He earned a pretty penny, and
preferred to spend the money on the family, rather than on a shop. I
suppose if he had more time, fewer kids and wasn't a one-man band
medical practice, he would have had more time for bigger projects and
maybe he would have had the de-luxe shop. Woulda, coulda, shoulda -
who knows.

Fast forward about ten years. I'm in Cambridge, MA and I'd just
finished my finals after a grueling term, and it was a few days before
Christmas. I went with my buddy to shop for some presents for
Christmas. As we walked around Cambridge and window shopped, I became
depressed. All I saw was **** and glitz. I couldn't afford a lot and
didn't see anything that I would want to give as a gift. The
depression turned into despondency as the night wore on and no
presents were bought. This was going to be the worst Christmas ever -
wouldn't matter what I got if I gave lame ass presents.

We turned into a weird little mini-mall, for lack of a better term -
one of those things where there's an alley inside the building with a
number of shops opening off of that. On the second floor we walked by
a big glass storefront. The store look unoccupied, there was hardly
anything in it, just a few pieces of furniture scattered about. Then
I noticed the furniture was different somehow - this wasn't a
furniture store showroom. One of the pieces had some wood shavings
curled around the bottom of it. This intrigued me, so we went in.

It turned out that that the place was showcasing some of the North
Bennett Street School's student work. As I walked up to the piece
with the little curlies, a guy walked out from the back of the store,
and we started to talk. He walked me through the different pieces in
the 'store' - nothing was for sale as far as I recall (_definitely_
couldn't have afforded it!). He showed me some of the stuff that some
of the students made, and the progression of work as their abilities
increased. First project was a small box for their oil stone, next
was a tool box for their tools (this was expected to take the full
year or half year to complete), and then on to furniture. He took me
over to a chest of drawers and showed off the all wood construction,
no metal hardware at all, and the incredible fit of the, of course,
dovetailed drawers. He pulled out one about half way and closed it
fairly rapidly. I gaped. All of the other drawers popped out the
exact same amount. I knew it wasn't a trick, but it still felt like
looked like a trick. He explained about using a hand plane to tweak
the fit of a drawer, showed me that the curlies were from a hand
scraper (I didn't even know what that was).

I left that store _pumped_. I knew what I wanted to do for my
presents...I also knew that they wouldn't be ready on time. This is a
tradition that I carry on to this day.

I have all the power tools. I have Festool out the yin yang (wish I
got into them years ago when I was more concerned with being an
'active' contractor), and all the other power tools that you would
imagine a designer/builder would have with a going concern. The tools
were and are mine. I did not supply tools to guys working for me, and
I take care of my tools, so most of them I still have. I also have a
nasty addiction to garage sales, auctions and eBay, and simply find it
impossible to pass up a good deal. I've picked up panel saws,
bandsaws, old iron from the 40's and 50's, etc., etc. I have way, way
more power tools than I need.

I also collect antique tools. I use antique tools on a daily basis.
I bought a tool collection from an estate sale - that guy had some eye
and had been collecting for years. So I got several workshops full in
one fell swoop. It was kinda, sorta 'cheating' I guess, but hey, the
price was right! So from that one purchase I have literally hundreds
of hand planes. I have pretty much the complete Stanley catalog, with
a few notable (read expensive) exceptions, tools that would fit right
in with Rob H's quizzes, coach building tools, pretty much any
woodworking hand tool you could think of. These old tools bring me
far, far more enjoyment that any power tool, and I bought some of my
Festool stuff dog collars and chew toys. My favorite chisel is from
1837, beautiful little thing. I have a ~100 year old Two Cherries
chisel that I picked up when I bought a ship carpenter's tool chest.
That thing holds an edge like you would not believe. I sharpen all my
other chisels two of three times for one sharpening of the Two
Cherries.

So of course I'm spoiled. I have advantages that few people have with
my tool collection. I have pretty much the exact tool I need, no
matter what I am doing. I have the dedicated molding planes sitting
on a shelf that cut one specific profile. I pick it up and it's ready
to go.

So you can tell I'm a tool junkie, by now, and I have an arsenal of
both hand and power tools at my disposal. I am not the fastest person
with either, and I pick my battles. But when I'm looking for quality,
and people are paying for it, we both enjoy it more when the hand
tools are broken out.

R

* More on the floor scraping (if anyone hasn't fallen asleep by now).

Normally I would have just sanded off the paper, like everybody else,
but that clogs paper and I wanted to try something a little different,
so I used the scrapers. I was planning on writing an article about it
for a little historical flavor for one of the flooring trade journals
- I just never got around to writing the article. I have a bunch, so
I tested and compared the Stanley 12, 12 1/2, 70 box scraper, 80, 81,
82, 83 and 112 (I wish I had the 11). Surprisingly enough, or maybe
not surprisingly at all, the 70 box scraper was the winner. I guess
that should be no surprise because it was designed to remove paper
labels from wood shipping crates so they could be reused. Hand
scraping was a _lot_ of work. I would not want to do that everyday,
but it was not all that much slower than sanding it off and having to
change paper on the machine a couple of times. Granted this was a
small foyer, and there's no way in hell that scraping off the paper on
a larger floor would make sense unless you were looking to punish
someone. I still ended up sanding the floor as I don't have a
74...I've never even seen a 74, but I would liked to have tried it out
to see how it would have performed.
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On Jan 30, 11:36 pm, RicodJour wrote:

Power tools are just an extension of the industrial revolution's aim
to obviate operator skill in favor of cheap labor.


Damn. And all this time I thought it was all about efficiency.

Max


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On Jan 31, 8:06*pm, "John Grossbohlin"
wrote:
"RicodJour" wrote in message
...
On Jan 30, 4:17 pm, Swingman wrote:
On 1/30/2011 2:53 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Sun, 30 Jan 2011 12:41:01 -0600, wrote:


Methinks the lad would quickly grab for a tailed tool or two, or more
...


I'm not so sure, Swingy. The man is QUICK! And have you ever watched
that handy Hungarian, Frank Klausz, make dovetails? He's quicker
doing up a drawer than a Normite is just setting up his first jig.
It's amazing. With Roy's love of woodworking, I think he'd likely go
with handtools everywhere.


I saw Klausz cut a drawer at a local woodworking club meeting. *The
guy was so quick I didn't know whether to laugh or cry, so I did
both. *He spoke about laying out dovetails on graduated drawers by
eye, and you could hear murmurrs of "WTF?" *To do the same thing with
power tools would require jig modifications for every drawer, and they
still wouldn't have that hand-cut tiny-pin dovetail look. *They simply
look better.


At last year's Woodworkers Showcase in Saratoga Springs, NY I used a 22" 12
pt Sandvik crosscut saw, marking gauge, pencil, 1/2" chisel, and my eyes to
layout and cut dovetails during my presentation... My core topic was how to
use reference surfaces and edges to guide your work (e.g., bench top, edge
of board). *In dovetailing, once you understand the relationships of the
parts and cuts the tools used become secondary.


Do you record the presentations you do? Any links to them to share?
I'd love to see that.

PS. this year's show is the last weekend of March. I'm doing a presentation
on scrub planes.


You _had_ to bring that up! My #40 blade and lever cap went walkabout
some while back. You haven't seen them by any chance, have you?

R
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On Jan 31, 8:44*pm, "CW" wrote:
"RicodJour" wrote in message

Power tools are just an extension of the industrial revolution's aim
to obviate operator skill in favor of cheap labor. *There's also the
question of cost in outfitting a shop. *A complete joiner's shop back
in the day fit in a 3'x2'x2' box. *Now a guy figures he can't do any
work unless he has ten grand in tools - to start. *Journeymen
carpenters walked around with a roll with their tools inside, often
just the blades and bits, and made handles, benches and whatever else
was needed on the spot.

We've gained some with power tools, but we've lost just as much
because of them. *I still wish that carpenters wore corduroy suits so
we could see at a glance who was in the brotherhood.

It is very obvious, by the above, that you do not build things for a living.


This would be where you are wrong.

I design and build everything I do. I used to just design, when I was
first starting out. Designing without building is just as bad as
building without designing.

R
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On Jan 31, 7:47*pm, Robatoy wrote:
On Jan 30, 11:36*pm, RicodJour wrote:

Power tools are just an extension of the industrial revolution's aim
to obviate operator skill in favor of cheap labor.


What a crock.... A power tool conspiracy???


Umm, more like an industrial age one...and this I'm telling to the
resident CNC guy.

Could you carve that Celtic Cross on that sign you made?

R
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