My 1-3/4" thick solid laminated maple work bench is exactly that, solid.
That means no dog holes. Anyone have experience drilling 3/4" diameter bench
dog holes that are actually vertical as they should be and not slightly
tilted? I've considered using my router except that it would create quite a
bit of dust and that's not at all desirable considering that the bench is
located in my living room.

Thanks

"Upscale" wrote in message
Anyone have experience drilling 3/4" diameter bench dog holes that are
actually vertical as they should be.

It also occurred to me. Is there a recommended spacing for these holes? My
bench is 72" long x 30" deep.

"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
Dust is a problem you live with or equip your plunge router with D/C.

In the past, I did jury rig a total enclosure for a trim router when I was
trimming some acrylic, which can be quite messy. It wouldn't be too
difficult for me to do the same when cutting bench dog holes ~ just a bigger
enclosure needed and maybe a connection to my Festool CT22 dust collector .
And, I do own a Makita 3612BR plunge router which meets the requirements
you've laid out.

That given, I'd use a plunge router with at least a 2" stroke and a spiral
milling cutter, not a normal router bit.

Not familar with spiral milling cutters. Are they some type of upcutting
bit? What advantage would one be over a standard 3/4" router bit?

"Larry W" wrote in message
hand-held drill on the workbench. It's not perfect because repeated
use will enlarge the guide block hole and allow some play, potentially
making the target hole somewhat off-plumb, but it works pretty darn
good if reasonable care is used.

Thanks, I'll keep that idea in mind. I may even have a source for a metal
guide block with 3/4" hole in it.

I used a spade bit with drill guide called a Portalign. I don't think
it's in production any more, but there are similar devices around,
such this one from Sears:

http://www.mysears.com/Craftsman-Drill-Guide-reviews

For using the dogs in the table with dogs on a moveable vice jaw, the
table holes should be spaced no farther apart than the vice travel.

Mine were 7/8" diameter. Some pictures he

http://bullfire.net/Bench/WP_Bench.html

I'm not sure I can help much with the mess the drilling will make.

"Upscale" wrote in message
...

"Upscale" wrote in message
Anyone have experience drilling 3/4" diameter bench dog holes that are
actually vertical as they should be.

It also occurred to me. Is there a recommended spacing for these holes? My
bench is 72" long x 30" deep.


The spacing should be equal to the stroke of your vice. I have mine at 12"
and I also have
http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/pag...=1,41637,41645

"Upscale" wrote

Not familar with spiral milling cutters. Are they some type of upcutting
bit? What advantage would one be over a standard 3/4" router bit?

A router bit does not cut at the center of the bit, and as mentioned, they
do not lift the chips out of the hole.

I would use a forsner style drill bit, shortened, if need be, and turned
down by a machine shop to fit your _variable-speed_ router. It could be
a good idea (depending on the design of the bit) to modify the cutting angle
of the face to only be a few degrees so it will not try to feed too fast and
over-load your router.

I think this setup would make a more precisely dimensioned and smooth set
of holes than an end mill cutter, and be less likely to clog up with chips.
--
Jim in NC

On Nov 13, 10:43*pm, "Upscale" wrote:
"Larry W" wrote in message
hand-held drill on the workbench. It's not perfect because repeated
use will enlarge the guide block hole and allow some play, potentially
making the target hole somewhat off-plumb, but it works pretty darn
good if reasonable care is used.

Thanks, I'll keep that idea in mind. I may even have a source for a metal
guide block with 3/4" hole in it.

If it's already got the hole, go for it, but no real need for metal
unless you're making benches on a production line.

On Nov 13, 8:19*pm, "Upscale" wrote:
My 1-3/4" thick solid laminated maple work bench is exactly that, solid.
That means no dog holes. Anyone have experience drilling 3/4" diameter bench
dog holes that are actually vertical as they should be and not slightly
tilted? I've considered using my router except that it would create quite a
bit of dust and that's not at all desirable considering that the bench is
located in my living room.

Thanks

I used Rockler's long shank 3/4" carbide forstner drill bit plus their
drill guide:

http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?p...=drill%20guide

"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
The spacing should be equal to the stroke of your vice. I have mine at
12" and I also have
http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/pag...=1,41637,41645

Yup, I've been eyeing those for awhile as well as the Veritas surface vise.
http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/pag...25&cat=1,41637

Assuming I ignore the stoke of the vise (it's well over 12"), and
considering the use of bench dogs and pups, I was wondering how far in from
the front edge I should place the first line of holes?

On Nov 13, 7:19*pm, "Upscale" wrote:
..... I've considered using my router except that it would create quite
a
bit of dust and that's not at all desirable considering that the bench is
located in my living room.

This has turned into an interesting and informative string. But I have
to ask the question:

Why is it in you living room? Just nosy. :^}

RonB

"RonB" wrote in message
bit of dust and that's not at all desirable considering that the bench
is
located in my living room.

Why is it in you living room? Just nosy. :^}

Essentially, it's because I live in a one bedroom apartment and use a
wheelchair. In well over 10 years of looking, I haven't been able to find a
wheelchair accessible space to rent or perhaps share with someone that is
within the realm of affordable. I'd be willing to pay $300-$400 a month for
a space that's accessible and less than 30 minutes or so Toronto transit
travel time time. So far, I've not been able to find anything other than
commercial spaces that are $1000 a month and up. To compound the problem,
Toronto's subway system is slightly less than 50% wheelchair accessible
which cuts down greatly on my potential search area.

On Sat, 13 Nov 2010 20:19:19 -0500, Upscale wrote:

My 1-3/4" thick solid laminated maple work bench is exactly that, solid.
That means no dog holes. Anyone have experience drilling 3/4" diameter
bench dog holes that are actually vertical as they should be and not
slightly tilted?

Everyone to his own preferences, but why do you object to the slight
tilt? My experience has been that a tilt of a few degrees (I believe
mine is 4 or 5 degrees) towards the vise keeps the dogs from tilting
backwards or riding up when pressure is applied.

On your followup question about hole spacing, it should be at most a
little less than your vise stroke. I set mine about half that to ensure
most of a board is always flat on the table. I use a variation of a
French leg vise and have one at the front and back edges of the bench. I
put one row of holes in line with each of those vises and another right
down the middle.

A handy add on is a "double dog" that spans the bench (or the two vises)
and another that spans from either edge to the center row of holes.

--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

"Larry Blanchard" wrote in message
Everyone to his own preferences, but why do you object to the slight
tilt? My experience has been that a tilt of a few degrees (I believe
mine is 4 or 5 degrees) towards the vise keeps the dogs from tilting
backwards or riding up when pressure is applied.

I agree with those comments only that I maybe mistakenly assumed that the
slight downward tilt needed was already incorporated in the flat face of
most bench dogs. As demonstrated with these two bench dogs which have 2 and
3 degree downward faces built in.

http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/pag...37,41645,31127
http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/pag...37,41645,31129

On Sun, 14 Nov 2010 00:12:15 -0500, "Ed Pawlowski"
wrote:


"Upscale" wrote in message
...

"Upscale" wrote in message
Anyone have experience drilling 3/4" diameter bench dog holes that are
actually vertical as they should be.

It also occurred to me. Is there a recommended spacing for these holes? My
bench is 72" long x 30" deep.


The spacing should be equal to the stroke of your vice.

Just _short_ of the working stroke.



I have mine at 12" and I also have
http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/pag...=1,41637,41645

Bench pups are nice, but DAMN, look what they're getting for them now!
I hate that the Canuckistani Ducat is so high now. I got them for a
whole lot cheaper last decade.

--
To the well-organized mind, death is but the next great adventure.
-- J. K. Rowling

On Sun, 14 Nov 2010 15:40:34 -0500, Upscale wrote:

I agree with those comments only that I maybe mistakenly assumed that
the slight downward tilt needed was already incorporated in the flat
face of most bench dogs.

Oh. I made my own to save money and they're just plywood shapes
(various) attached to a dowel. So I tilted the holes in the bench.

--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

On Nov 13, 7:19*pm, "Upscale" wrote:
My 1-3/4" thick solid laminated maple work bench is exactly that, solid.
That means no dog holes. Anyone have experience drilling 3/4" diameter bench
dog holes that are actually vertical as they should be and not slightly
tilted? I've considered using my router except that it would create quite a
bit of dust and that's not at all desirable considering that the bench is
located in my living room.

Thanks

I had a similar size benchtop, same materials and thickness. I hiked
it up on my drill press using a roller ball support stand on either
side of the drill press. Then I used a 3/4" forstner bit to drill all
the holes. I used a couple of Bessey cabinet clamps to clamp it to the
drill press table before I drilled each hole. It sounds cumbersome but
it actually went pretty fast and smooth once I got the benchtop loaded
on the two stands.

Bob

Yikes, my slab is over 250 lbs. I could not imagine doing that.
I had enough trouble getting it down the stairs.

I used a router with a 3/4 ONSRUD spiral cutter. It too went fast.

On 11/17/2010 10:01 AM, Bob wrote:
On Nov 13, 7:19 pm, wrote:
My 1-3/4" thick solid laminated maple work bench is exactly that, solid.
That means no dog holes. Anyone have experience drilling 3/4" diameter bench
dog holes that are actually vertical as they should be and not slightly
tilted? I've considered using my router except that it would create quite a
bit of dust and that's not at all desirable considering that the bench is
located in my living room.

Thanks

I had a similar size benchtop, same materials and thickness. I hiked
it up on my drill press using a roller ball support stand on either
side of the drill press. Then I used a 3/4" forstner bit to drill all
the holes. I used a couple of Bessey cabinet clamps to clamp it to the
drill press table before I drilled each hole. It sounds cumbersome but
it actually went pretty fast and smooth once I got the benchtop loaded
on the two stands.

Bob

What am I missing here? Is this really rocket surgery?
What's wrong with a hand held drill and a Forstner bit?
Don't bench dogs work with the friction of being pushed from the side?
To my knowledge, you shouldn't have to pound them in and out, so who
needs a perfect hole?

Or am I wrong? There's always a first. :-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

"tiredofspam" wrote in message
...

Yikes, my slab is over 250 lbs. I could not imagine doing that.
I had enough trouble getting it down the stairs.

With my itty bitty drill press it would be easier to clamp the drill press
onto the bench and drill the holes that way.

On Nov 17, 9:01*am, Bob wrote:
On Nov 13, 7:19*pm, "Upscale" wrote:

My 1-3/4" thick solid laminated maple work bench is exactly that, solid..
That means no dog holes. Anyone have experience drilling 3/4" diameter bench
dog holes that are actually vertical as they should be and not slightly
tilted? I've considered using my router except that it would create quite a
bit of dust and that's not at all desirable considering that the bench is
located in my living room.

Thanks

I had a similar size benchtop, same materials and thickness. I hiked
it up on my drill press using a roller ball support stand on either
side of the drill press. *Then I used a 3/4" forstner bit to drill all
the holes. I used a couple of Bessey cabinet clamps to clamp it to the
drill press table before I drilled each hole. It sounds cumbersome but
it actually went pretty fast and smooth once I got the benchtop loaded
on the two stands.

Bob

$30 drill guide and a sharp spade bit did a fine job on my table of 3-
inch white oak. Clamp a backup piece to the bottom to prevent exit
tearout.

On Wed, 17 Nov 2010 14:24:14 -0600, -MIKE- wrote:

What's wrong with
a hand held drill and a Forstner bit?

Out of curiosity, why a Forstner bit? Don't dog holes go all the way
through?

I've never used a Forstner bit in other than a drill press. Seems I read
somewhere they weren't safe otherwise.

--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

Larry Blanchard wrote:
On Wed, 17 Nov 2010 14:24:14 -0600, -MIKE- wrote:


What's wrong with
a hand held drill and a Forstner bit?


Out of curiosity, why a Forstner bit? Don't dog holes go all the way
through?

I've never used a Forstner bit in other than a drill press. Seems I read
somewhere they weren't safe otherwise.


By design using a Forstner bit will give you an indication that the hole
is started perpendicular to the table top. Once started the design of
the bit will aid in keeping it perpendicular.

I use Forstner bits in a hand held drill frequently. I've never had a
problem... although you have to keep a tight grip on the drill when
using the larger bits.

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA

"Upscale" wrote in message
...
My 1-3/4" thick solid laminated maple work bench is exactly that, solid.
That means no dog holes. Anyone have experience drilling 3/4" diameter
bench dog holes that are actually vertical as they should be and not
slightly tilted? I've considered using my router except that it would
create quite a bit of dust and that's not at all desirable considering
that the bench is located in my living room.

Thanks


Plunge router? Tape it in place and put tape around any openings that duse
would escape with the exception of where you attach you Festool Vac. Use a
3/4" straight bit.

"Leon" wrote:

Plunge router?
------------------

Already covered.

See my previous posts.

Lew

On 11/17/10 5:44 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
On Wed, 17 Nov 2010 14:24:14 -0600, -MIKE- wrote:

What's wrong with
a hand held drill and a Forstner bit?

Out of curiosity, why a Forstner bit? Don't dog holes go all the way
through?


Ok, a spade bit. I figured the entry hole would be cleaner.


I've never used a Forstner bit in other than a drill press. Seems I read
somewhere they weren't safe otherwise.


Poppycosh. (I've never used that word, until now.)
I use them all the time in a hand held drill.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 11/17/10 6:44 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
On Wed, 17 Nov 2010 14:24:14 -0600, -MIKE- wrote:

What's wrong with
a hand held drill and a Forstner bit?

Out of curiosity, why a Forstner bit? Don't dog holes go all the way
through?

I've never used a Forstner bit in other than a drill press. Seems I read
somewhere they weren't safe otherwise.

I've drilled the holes for Euro style hinges with my cordless Dewalt,
worked perfectly and I can still count to ten.

--
Froz...


The system will be down for 10 days for preventive maintenance.

"tiredofspam" nospam.nospam.com wrote in message
...
Yikes, my slab is over 250 lbs. I could not imagine doing that.
I had enough trouble getting it down the stairs.

I used a router with a 3/4 ONSRUD spiral cutter. It too went fast.

Was is a carbide spiral cutter or a steel one? So far I've only been able to
find steel ones (1/2"shank). Considering the number of holes I'd like to
drill, I'm concerned that a steel one will wear out or at least lose it's
edge before I'm finished.

"-MIKE-" wrote in message
"What's wrong with a hand held drill to drill bench dog holes."

The only reply I can give to that is the dog holes have the potential to be
drilled on an angle, as slight as that may be. With a router, you're almost
guaranteed that the hole is going to be vertically cut.

"Leon" wrote in message
Plunge router? Tape it in place and put tape around any openings that
duse would escape with the exception of where you attach you Festool Vac.
Use a 3/4" straight bit.

Yup, that's going to be my preferred method as suggested by Lew. It won't
be too difficult for me to make a simple enclosure with the CT22 attached
to house the router while I cut the holes. I already have a 3/4" carbide
router bit, but it's single flute and I've long intended to buy a double
flute bit, so this is my opportunity. A pieced of hardboard used as a
template guide will round off the process.

I briefly considered using a brad point drill or perhaps a spade drill, but
since I'm unable to lean over the drill to put weight on it as well as to
easily eyeball a decent vertical entry point, my plunge router seems like
the obvious choice.

Now, all I have to do is to convince my best friend to let me "borrow" my
plunge router back from him.

"Upscale" wrote :

Was is a carbide spiral cutter or a steel one? So far I've only been
able to find steel ones (1/2"shank). Considering the number of holes
I'd like to drill, I'm concerned that a steel one will wear out or
at least lose it's edge before I'm finished.
-----------------------
Which is why I posted my previous mea culpa.

Given your bench is only 1-3/4" thick, a 3/4" x 2", 2 blade straight
cut router bit with 1/2" shank shouldn't have a problem clearing the
chips.

If it were 3"-4" thick, different story, but it's only 1-3/4",
different story.

Just make sure to use ac backer to eliminate tear out.


Lew

On 11/17/10 6:44 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
You guys crack me up.
Please change original to,
"What's wrong with a hand held drill to drill bench dog holes."


Nothing, if you don't mind a few imperfections.
Bill


No, I don't... on a work bench. Especially if you're talking about the
minimal amount of tear-out you might get at the entry point, which could
easily be avoided with the same piece of scrap you use with the router,
or taken care of after the fact in 10 seconds with a piece of sandpaper.

But, as I mentioned before.. it's a WORK BENCH, not a dining room table.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
If it were 3"-4" thick, different story, but it's only 1-3/4", different
story.

Haven't seen too many plunge routers with a 4" depth cutting ability anyway.

Just make sure to use ac backer to eliminate tear out.

Of course, that's just common sense. Since I'll be using a template guide
for the router I'm considering hogging out most of each hole with a 1/2" or
so spade bit and then come along with the router to more easily finish the
holes. But, I'll try a few initial holes with the bit only and if the going
is not too difficult, I won't bother using the spade bit.

On 11/17/10 6:46 PM, Upscale wrote:
wrote in message
"What's wrong with a hand held drill to drill bench dog holes."

The only reply I can give to that is the dog holes have the potential to be
drilled on an angle, as slight as that may be. With a router, you're almost
guaranteed that the hole is going to be vertically cut.


IMO...
if you can't drill a hole straight enough for a bench dog hole, then you
shouldn't be woodworking. :-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

"-MIKE-" wrote in message
But, as I mentioned before.. it's a WORK BENCH, not a dining room table.

Boy, have you got a shock coming. I've met people who worship their work
benches infinitely more than any dining room table. You can get a dining
room table anywhere, but a really good workbench? They're only found once or
twice in a lifetime and for some, they never get to experience the joys of a
truly beautiful work bench.

It's called Nirvana my friend and is something that's experienced by too
few.

On 11/17/10 6:55 PM, Upscale wrote:
I briefly considered using a brad point drill or perhaps a spade drill, but
since I'm unable to lean over the drill to put weight on it as well as to
easily eyeball a decent vertical entry point, my plunge router seems like
the obvious choice.


I wasn't considering your circumstances when suggesting the drill.
However, any drill bit would produce far less dust, which was your main
concern, no?

Do you know anyone with a right angle drill?
I think you would be able to produce adequate down force with one of
those.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 11/17/10 8:11 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 11/17/10 6:46 PM, Upscale wrote:
wrote in message
"What's wrong with a hand held drill to drill bench dog holes."

The only reply I can give to that is the dog holes have the potential
to be
drilled on an angle, as slight as that may be. With a router, you're
almost
guaranteed that the hole is going to be vertically cut.


IMO...
if you can't drill a hole straight enough for a bench dog hole, then you
shouldn't be woodworking. :-)

Ummm, he is woodworking from a wheel chair, their are limitations as to
his angles of attack on a project.

--
Froz...


The system will be down for 10 days for preventive maintenance.

"-MIKE-" wrote in message
if you can't drill a hole straight enough for a bench dog hole, then you
shouldn't be woodworking. :-)

Unavoidable circumstances. I use a wheelchair so I'd be drilling with my
arms extended straight out in front of me. Without some type of guide or a
vertically fixed router housing for example, many of my holes are not close
to be considered reasonably vertical. I consider myself a decent woodworker,
just that I have some different challenges to overcome than some.

On 11/17/10 7:14 PM, Upscale wrote:
wrote in message
But, as I mentioned before.. it's a WORK BENCH, not a dining room table.

Boy, have you got a shock coming. I've met people who worship their work
benches infinitely more than any dining room table.

It's no shock to me..... no, I take that back. I'm often shocked by how
anal people get with protecting stuff they build to use to make stuff
that matters. :-)


You can get a dining
room table anywhere, but a really good workbench?

See, that's the problem. We're supposed to build the dining room table.


They're only found once or
twice in a lifetime and for some, they never get to experience the joys of a
truly beautiful work bench.


Found? I thought we were building it?


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 11/17/10 7:17 PM, FrozenNorth wrote:
On 11/17/10 8:11 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 11/17/10 6:46 PM, Upscale wrote:
wrote in message
"What's wrong with a hand held drill to drill bench dog holes."

The only reply I can give to that is the dog holes have the potential
to be
drilled on an angle, as slight as that may be. With a router, you're
almost
guaranteed that the hole is going to be vertically cut.


IMO...
if you can't drill a hole straight enough for a bench dog hole, then you
shouldn't be woodworking. :-)

Ummm, he is woodworking from a wheel chair, their are limitations as to
his angles of attack on a project.


See my other post... I forgot who we were talking to. :-)
However, I suggested a right angle drill, which I think would work for
him.
I just think the router would make way too much dust... which he's
trying to avoid.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply