The proper answer is 'buy or borrow a table saw with a dado blade'.

However, I don't want to.

I want to use my plunge router to place a 3-1/2" square lap joint
about 3/4" deep on the ends of several pressure treated 2x4s.
I will don a respirator first, no worries.

I've designed an machined jig to allow me to do
this but I want to know how you pro's would approach this
challenge before I search my junk pile for parts.

My Google-fu was not up to the challenge. Instead, it revealed
some table saw adapters.

My band saw refuses to cut anywhere near straight so that's out.

First prize answer would be an inexpensive jig I could pick up
at my local hardware store.

What would SuperWoodworker do?

Thanks!

--Winston


--

Harley was venal, arrogant, despicable and a psychologist.
He was the second most redundant man I ever talked to.

On 4/26/2010 9:09 AM, Winston wrote:
The proper answer is 'buy or borrow a table saw with a dado blade'.

However, I don't want to.

Typically what would be done on site by an experienced framing crew
would be a circular saw to make multiple, close together shoulder cuts
at the proper depth, and a chisel to finish chopping the residue of
these cuts out.

Just one of many options ...

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On 4/26/2010 7:27 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 4/26/2010 9:09 AM, Winston wrote:
The proper answer is 'buy or borrow a table saw with a dado blade'.

However, I don't want to.

Typically what would be done on site by an experienced framing crew
would be a circular saw to make multiple, close together shoulder cuts
at the proper depth, and a chisel to finish chopping the residue of
these cuts out.

Just one of many options ...


I will give that a try.

Thanks!


--Winston

On 4/26/2010 10:09 AM, Winston wrote:
The proper answer is 'buy or borrow a table saw with a dado blade'.

However, I don't want to.

I want to use my plunge router to place a 3-1/2" square lap joint
about 3/4" deep on the ends of several pressure treated 2x4s.
I will don a respirator first, no worries.

I've designed an machined jig to allow me to do
this but I want to know how you pro's would approach this
challenge before I search my junk pile for parts.

My Google-fu was not up to the challenge. Instead, it revealed
some table saw adapters.

My band saw refuses to cut anywhere near straight so that's out.

First prize answer would be an inexpensive jig I could pick up
at my local hardware store.

What would SuperWoodworker do?

Thanks!

Machined jig?!?!?!?!

Clamp the 2x4s side by side. Clamp a scrap across them an appropriate
distance from the cut line as a fence. Clamp another 2x4 crosswise
along the ends for the router to ride on at the ends of the cut. Route
until done.

If this is difficult for you to set up you don't have enough clamps or
don't have the right kind of clamps. And nobody _ever_ has enough
clamps so go get some clamps if you need to.




--Winston

The proper answer is 'buy or borrow a table saw with a dado blade'.

It would be difficult to safely cut a lap joint on the end of an 8 foot 2x4
using a table saw with a dado blade. Far too easy for the long board to
shift while cutting. Maybe with a proper jig, but I wouldn't try it.

I want to use my plunge router to place a 3-1/2" square lap joint
about 3/4" deep on the ends of several pressure treated 2x4s.
I will don a respirator first, no worries.

A router would work fine, and it sounds like you're alerady set up for the
task.

I don't know what kind of precision you need, but for rough carpentry I
usually "dado" using my circular saw. For instance, if I want to "let-in"
a 1x4 diagonal brace in a stud wall. Just mark the outside edges where you
need to cut, then set your circular saw to the proper depth (3/4" in your
case). Make a cut on each cut line, then a series of cuts in between. For
construction work I usually just use the claw of my hammer to knock out the
thin strips and clean up the joint. If you need a finer joint, you sould
clean it up with a chisel.

Of course, it might be just as easy to make the cut with a handsaw. With a
sharp saw, it shouldn't take more than a few minutes to cut a half lap
joint.

Take care,

Anthony

On Apr 26, 10:09*am, Winston wrote:
The proper answer is 'buy or borrow a table saw with a dado blade'.

However, I don't want to.

I want to use my plunge router to place a 3-1/2" square lap joint
about 3/4" deep on the ends of several pressure treated 2x4s.
I will don a respirator first, no worries.

I've designed an machined jig to allow me to do
this but I want to know how you pro's would approach this
challenge before I search my junk pile for parts.

My Google-fu was not up to the challenge. *Instead, it revealed
some table saw adapters.

My band saw refuses to cut anywhere near straight so that's out.

First prize answer would be an inexpensive jig I could pick up
at my local hardware store.

What would SuperWoodworker do?

Thanks!

--Winston

--

Harley was venal, arrogant, despicable and a psychologist.
He was the second most redundant man I ever talked to.

It seems to me that a fairly simple jig, based on the size of your
router base would make short work of this project.

I recently had to cut a number 3 1/2" x 1/2" deep recessed areas in
the middle of some boards and a simple frame made of 1 x 2 stock
clamped to the boards made quick work of them.

All you need is a square frame sized so that the router can only move
enough to cut a 3 1/2" square and a way to mount the jig on top of a 2
x 4.

How about this:

Size up and build the square frame and set it aside.

Take some scrap 2 X material and make a "U" shaped jig so that your 2
x 4's can slip into the "U", essentially giving you a "flat board"
just like I had. This will support your router as you rout the 2 x 4.

Mount the frame on top of this "U", positioned so the center of the
area you need to cut out is in the center of the frame.

Slip a 2 x 4 under the frame into the "U" and rout out your lap joint.
You can oversize the frame to allow the router to clean all of the
material from the end of the 2 x 4 and then just clean up the other
end of the joint with a chisel.

I don't know how this will come out, but I'll try a little ASCII
art...

The Frame:

|-------------------|
| |
| |
| |
| |
|-------------------|

The "U" (=) with 2 x 4 (x) inserted, obviouslY not to scale.

======================
=O==========O======O==
======================
xxxxxxxxxxxxxx =========
xxxxxxxxxxxxxx ======O===
xxxxxxxxxxxxxx==========
======================
=O==========O======O==
======================

Center the Frame over the "U", screw it where indicated (O) and rout
to your heart's content.

On 4/26/2010 8:02 AM, dadiOH wrote:
Winston wrote:
On 4/26/2010 7:27 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 4/26/2010 9:09 AM, Winston wrote:
The proper answer is 'buy or borrow a table saw with a dado blade'.

However, I don't want to.

Typically what would be done on site by an experienced framing crew
would be a circular saw to make multiple, close together shoulder
cuts at the proper depth, and a chisel to finish chopping the
residue of these cuts out.

Just one of many options ...


I will give that a try.

After popping the uncut parts with a chisel, use a shoemaker's rasp (AKA 4
in hand rasp) to smooth the bottoms.
http://www.dick.biz/medias/sys_maste..._01_P_WE_8.jpg

Hokay.

This morning, I followed the technique mentioned by
you, Swingman and Anthony. (Thanks)

I have a confession to make. I am not Roy Underhill.

I'm an electronics tech with zero woodworking chops.

I placed the cuts at depth and chipped out the scrap between cuts.
So I got the general idea. I see that if I spent say 10 min. with a rasp
as suggested, I would eventually arrive at a surface flat enough to allow
a halfway decent looking workpiece, though I am dubious about my ability
to do that *twice*.

I've got 16 of these to do. Unlike you, my 'thrill of
creation' happens with other hardware and not with wood so much.

So next, I will try J. Clarke's suggestion because that sounds like it
would give me a good chance at a flat face surface, quickly.
I can afford to 'notch' the material then slice off the end if necessary.
Raw material is cheap. Time and talent are all but nonexistent here.

Thank you for your help, guys.

--Winston




--

Harley was venal, arrogant, despicable and a psychologist.
He was the second most redundant man I ever talked to.

On 4/26/2010 8:04 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:


It seems to me that a fairly simple jig, based on the size of your
router base would make short work of this project.


(...)

Center the Frame over the "U", screw it where indicated (O) and rout
to your heart's content.

Two Great Minds, DerbyDad!

That is almost exactly what my machined jig looks like!

If I can't make any headway using J. Clarke's suggestion,
I'll go ahead and hog one of these out of some scrap aluminum.


Thanks!

--Winston


--

Harley was venal, arrogant, despicable and a psychologist.
He was the second most redundant man I ever talked to.

On Apr 26, 1:07*pm, Winston wrote:
On 4/26/2010 8:04 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:



It seems to me that a fairly simple jig, based on the size of your
router base would make short work of this project.

(...)

Center the Frame over the "U", screw it where indicated (O) and rout
to your heart's content.

Two Great Minds, DerbyDad!

That is almost exactly what my machined jig looks like!

If I can't make any headway using J. Clarke's suggestion,
I'll go ahead and hog one of these out of some scrap aluminum.

Thanks!

--Winston

--

Harley was venal, arrogant, despicable and a psychologist.
He was the second most redundant man I ever talked to.

I'll go ahead and hog one of these out of some scrap aluminum.


What? Why are you using aluminum?

Grab some scrap wood and drywall screws and throw this thing together
in 10 minutes.

On 4/26/2010 10:59 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
(...)


What? Why are you using aluminum?

Grab some scrap wood and drywall screws and throw this thing together
in 10 minutes.

My mill can cut aluminum straighter than I can cut scrap.



--Winston

Depending on the number of cuts through the half lap depends on how easy
it is to clean up.

In mathematical terms.

One cut between the two cuts determining the with of the lap = a lot of
time with the file or chisel.

An infinite number of cuts = very clean lap.

Something in between will make it easy to remove the excess wood, but
still make it quite easy to clean up the bottom surface. Usually if you
make the cuts in quarter inches slices they come out pretty clean with
very little chisel of file work. Also a sharp chisel I find works
better the the file.



On 4/26/2010 1:03 PM, Winston wrote:
On 4/26/2010 8:02 AM, dadiOH wrote:
Winston wrote:
On 4/26/2010 7:27 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 4/26/2010 9:09 AM, Winston wrote:
The proper answer is 'buy or borrow a table saw with a dado blade'.

However, I don't want to.

Typically what would be done on site by an experienced framing crew
would be a circular saw to make multiple, close together shoulder
cuts at the proper depth, and a chisel to finish chopping the
residue of these cuts out.

Just one of many options ...


I will give that a try.

After popping the uncut parts with a chisel, use a shoemaker's rasp
(AKA 4
in hand rasp) to smooth the bottoms.
http://www.dick.biz/medias/sys_maste..._01_P_WE_8.jpg

Hokay.

This morning, I followed the technique mentioned by
you, Swingman and Anthony. (Thanks)

I have a confession to make. I am not Roy Underhill.

I'm an electronics tech with zero woodworking chops.

I placed the cuts at depth and chipped out the scrap between cuts.
So I got the general idea. I see that if I spent say 10 min. with a rasp
as suggested, I would eventually arrive at a surface flat enough to allow
a halfway decent looking workpiece, though I am dubious about my ability
to do that *twice*.

I've got 16 of these to do. Unlike you, my 'thrill of
creation' happens with other hardware and not with wood so much.

So next, I will try J. Clarke's suggestion because that sounds like it
would give me a good chance at a flat face surface, quickly.
I can afford to 'notch' the material then slice off the end if necessary.
Raw material is cheap. Time and talent are all but nonexistent here.

Thank you for your help, guys.

--Winston

On 4/26/2010 3:07 PM, Winston wrote:
On 4/26/2010 10:59 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
(...)


What? Why are you using aluminum?

Grab some scrap wood and drywall screws and throw this thing together
in 10 minutes.

My mill can cut aluminum straighter than I can cut scrap.



Oooooh! Ok - now I can be my usual trouble-making self...

Why not do your lap joints like this:

http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/Projects/LLJ/

with something like this:

http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/Projects/JBot/



--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

In article ,
Winston wrote:
The proper answer is 'buy or borrow a table saw with a dado blade'.

However, I don't want to.

I want to use my plunge router to place a 3-1/2" square lap joint
about 3/4" deep on the ends of several pressure treated 2x4s.
I will don a respirator first, no worries.

I've designed an machined jig to allow me to do
this but I want to know how you pro's would approach this
challenge before I search my junk pile for parts.

My Google-fu was not up to the challenge. Instead, it revealed
some table saw adapters.

My band saw refuses to cut anywhere near straight so that's out.

First prize answer would be an inexpensive jig I could pick up
at my local hardware store.

What would SuperWoodworker do?

Skilsaw (or equivalent), cut across the 2x4 at the proper distance from
the end, then use the Neander approach -- wide wood chisel and a hammer
to 'split' in from the end.

*WAY* less dust than the router will throw up.

Of course, you've got to be able to chisel a flat surface. for the lap.

To reduce the effort of Neandering, do a -series- of parallel custs with
the Skilsaw, then break the 'fingers' off, and clean up with the chisel.

On Apr 26, 4:07*pm, Winston wrote:
On 4/26/2010 10:59 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
(...)



What? Why are you using aluminum?

Grab some scrap wood and drywall screws and throw this thing together
in 10 minutes.

My mill can cut aluminum straighter than I can cut scrap.



--Winston

You shouldn't really have to cut anything "straight".

The 2 x 4's for the base are already cut straight, you just have to
cut them to length.

The same goes for anything that you'll be using for the upper frame.
Any kind of scraps that can be laid out in a square will work,
including more 2 x 4's.

I really believe that you are over thinking this fairly simple
project.

On 4/26/2010 1:06 PM, dadiOH wrote:
Winston wrote:

(...)

I am dubious about my ability to do that *twice*.

Ten minutes? Nah, 1 minute tops. Maybe you didn't cut the kerfs close
enough together? Leave no more than about 1/8 between them, pop them out (I
usually use a screw driver), if one breaks high, slick it off with a wide
chisel (1" or better), use the rounded rasp side to smooth down.

Ah! I was leaving perhaps 3/8" between cuts. I knew I was doing *something*
very wrong.

___________

So next, I will try J. Clarke's suggestion because that sounds like it
would give me a good chance at a flat face surface, quickly.

Yes, a fence and doing multiple pieces at one time is a lot faster with
either saw or router. If you use a router, start at the outboard end so you
don't leave the router base hanging over thin air.

I tried J. Clarke's suggestion just now and it worked a treat.
It was noisy, somewhat slow and messy but left a *very nice looking* step
that required no further attention.

As you guys say, I will gang the planks and cut multiple at once.
I will leave extra length and a step on the 'waste' side to support the router.
Then I'll just flip them over and saw off the step.


I can't believe how nicely that worked! Thanks!

____________

I can afford to 'notch' the material then slice off the end if
necessary. Raw material is cheap. Time and talent are all but
nonexistent here.

After you do a couple you'll be an expert

Heh!

--Winston



--

Harley was venal, arrogant, despicable and a psychologist.
He was the second most redundant man I ever talked to.

On 4/26/2010 1:23 PM, keith Nuttle wrote:
Depending on the number of cuts through the half lap depends on how easy
it is to clean up.

In mathematical terms.

One cut between the two cuts determining the with of the lap = a lot of
time with the file or chisel.

An infinite number of cuts = very clean lap.

Something in between will make it easy to remove the excess wood, but
still make it quite easy to clean up the bottom surface. Usually if you
make the cuts in quarter inches slices they come out pretty clean with
very little chisel of file work. Also a sharp chisel I find works better
the the file.

Yup, you and dadiOH got to the key issue.

I left too much material between cuts and it resulted in much more
'post processing' than I would have been comfortable with.
I see now that leaving say, 1/8"-1/4" between cuts would have made
that a whole lot easier.

Doubtlessly someone makes a 7-1/4" circular saw blade with a wide kerf
(say 1/4"?) just perfect for this app.

Right now, I'm so pleased with the results of hogging out with the
router that I will stick with that method.

Thanks!

--Winston



--

Harley was venal, arrogant, despicable and a psychologist.
He was the second most redundant man I ever talked to.

On 4/26/2010 1:38 PM, Morris Dovey wrote:
On 4/26/2010 3:07 PM, Winston wrote:
On 4/26/2010 10:59 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
(...)


What? Why are you using aluminum?

Grab some scrap wood and drywall screws and throw this thing together
in 10 minutes.

My mill can cut aluminum straighter than I can cut scrap.



Oooooh! Ok - now I can be my usual trouble-making self...

Why not do your lap joints like this:

http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/Projects/LLJ/

with something like this:

http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/Projects/JBot/



Very nice, Morris!

--Winston

--

Harley was venal, arrogant, despicable and a psychologist.
He was the second most redundant man I ever talked to.

On 4/26/2010 4:39 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

(...)

I really believe that you are over thinking this fairly simple
project.

You are absolutely correct.

It turned out that I only *really* needed to constrain one direction
of one axis. So I clamped a piece of scrap aluminum square on top
of my 2x4 as a fence and routed my step. It turned out much nicer
than I thought it would and requires no cleanup. That'll do.

Thanks for your thoughts on this.

--Winston



--

Harley was venal, arrogant, despicable and a psychologist.
He was the second most redundant man I ever talked to.

On 4/26/2010 1:48 PM, Robert Bonomi wrote:
In ,
wrote:

(...)


What would SuperWoodworker do?

Skilsaw (or equivalent), cut across the 2x4 at the proper distance from
the end, then use the Neander approach -- wide wood chisel and a hammer
to 'split' in from the end.

*WAY* less dust than the router will throw up.

Of course, you've got to be able to chisel a flat surface. for the lap.

Yes. Please see my forth sentence.

To reduce the effort of Neandering, do a -series- of parallel custs with
the Skilsaw, then break the 'fingers' off, and clean up with the chisel.

Hi, Robert.

I may revisit this approach, particularly if I can find a circular
saw blade with a very wide kerf (1/4" or wider?).
My first attempt failed because I left way too much room between cuts,
as mentioned by other groupers.

My chisel-fu is not going to be up to your standard, so it may pay
me to continue to let the router create the flat surfaces I require.
That will be sufficient for the few pieces I need.

Thanks!

--Winston

--

Harley was venal, arrogant, despicable and a psychologist.
He was the second most redundant man I ever talked to.

In article ,
Winston wrote:
On 4/26/2010 1:48 PM, Robert Bonomi wrote:
In ,
wrote:

(...)


What would SuperWoodworker do?

Skilsaw (or equivalent), cut across the 2x4 at the proper distance from
the end, then use the Neander approach -- wide wood chisel and a hammer
to 'split' in from the end.

*WAY* less dust than the router will throw up.

Of course, you've got to be able to chisel a flat surface. for the lap.

Yes. Please see my forth sentence.

To reduce the effort of Neandering, do a -series- of parallel custs with
the Skilsaw, then break the 'fingers' off, and clean up with the chisel.

Hi, Robert.

I may revisit this approach, particularly if I can find a circular
saw blade with a very wide kerf (1/4" or wider?).

I suppose you could put two blades on the saw. *grin*
an actual dado set, "wobble" or otherwise, is definitely not a good idea,


My first attempt failed because I left way too much room between cuts,
as mentioned by other groupers.

BTW, there's nothing that says you have to leave _any_ space between the
cuts -- you can take it all off with the saw blade. "Break it off, and
clean up with a chisel and/or rasp" just tends to be easier/faster,
particularly, when you're going 'along' the grain.

My chisel-fu is not going to be up to your standard, so it may pay
me to continue to let the router create the flat surfaces I require.

I'll merely point out that you don't _need_ "flat" surfaces, just that
the two surfaces to be joined 'match". This -is- easier to do, with a
bit of 'lay them to together and see where they bind'.

I'm not disparaging the way you're currently doing it -- if it works _for_you_
that's all that matters. grin

When the opportunity presents itself, it is always worthwhile experimenting
with alternative approaches -- who knows, one of them *may* fit you better
than the way you have been doing it. Of course, it may not, but you're never
going to know until you try it.

One other alternative to consider, *IF* you've got the space to stand the 2x4
_on_end_, and support it stably, is to use a "back saw" (hand saw with a
reinforced spine on the blade) to cut down the middle of the 2x4s, and then
lay them down and cut off one of the 'sides', either with the back saw, or
a power saw. This +does+ call for some skill with the back saw, to hold it
vertical as you get the cut started.

On 4/26/2010 6:14 PM, Robert Bonomi wrote:
In ,
wrote:
On 4/26/2010 1:48 PM, Robert Bonomi wrote:
In ,
wrote:

(...)


What would SuperWoodworker do?

Skilsaw (or equivalent), cut across the 2x4 at the proper distance from
the end, then use the Neander approach -- wide wood chisel and a hammer
to 'split' in from the end.

*WAY* less dust than the router will throw up.

Of course, you've got to be able to chisel a flat surface. for the lap.

Yes. Please see my forth sentence.

To reduce the effort of Neandering, do a -series- of parallel custs with
the Skilsaw, then break the 'fingers' off, and clean up with the chisel.

Hi, Robert.

I may revisit this approach, particularly if I can find a circular
saw blade with a very wide kerf (1/4" or wider?).

I suppose you could put two blades on the saw. *grin*
an actual dado set, "wobble" or otherwise, is definitely not a good idea,

We agree. 'Power tool racing' is for braver souls than me.

My first attempt failed because I left way too much room between cuts,
as mentioned by other groupers.

BTW, there's nothing that says you have to leave _any_ space between the
cuts -- you can take it all off with the saw blade. "Break it off, and
clean up with a chisel and/or rasp" just tends to be easier/faster,
particularly, when you're going 'along' the grain.

I grok.

My chisel-fu is not going to be up to your standard, so it may pay
me to continue to let the router create the flat surfaces I require.

I'll merely point out that you don't _need_ "flat" surfaces, just that
the two surfaces to be joined 'match". This -is- easier to do, with a
bit of 'lay them to together and see where they bind'.

I was hoping to take advantage of the raw wood in flat contact by
gluing the corner laps together for added rigidity.
Flatter would be better for that use, yes?

I'm not disparaging the way you're currently doing it -- if it works _for_you_
that's all that matters.grin

'Perfect' is the enemy of 'good enough'. I am not building a piano,
I am building a fence gate.

When the opportunity presents itself, it is always worthwhile experimenting
with alternative approaches -- who knows, one of them *may* fit you better
than the way you have been doing it. Of course, it may not, but you're never
going to know until you try it.

I agree.

One other alternative to consider, *IF* you've got the space to stand the 2x4
_on_end_, and support it stably, is to use a "back saw" (hand saw with a
reinforced spine on the blade) to cut down the middle of the 2x4s, and then
lay them down and cut off one of the 'sides', either with the back saw, or
a power saw. This +does+ call for some skill with the back saw, to hold it
vertical as you get the cut started.

I'm not interested in developing the technique necessary to make a proper
cut under these circumstances. That sounds like a lot of work and
frustration. I will let Mr. Router do that for now.

I appreciate your thoughts on this.

Thanks!

--Winston


--

Harley was venal, arrogant, despicable and a psychologist.
He was the second most redundant man I ever talked to.

On 4/26/2010 9:04 PM, Winston wrote:

I was hoping to take advantage of the raw wood in flat contact by
gluing the corner laps together for added rigidity.
Flatter would be better for that use, yes?

Consider a "glue" that can be used with pressure treated wood, and be
aware that a lap joint is one joint, particularly in this application,
that, in addition to being "glued", needs to be either pinned or screwed
together.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On 4/26/2010 7:14 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 4/26/2010 9:04 PM, Winston wrote:

I was hoping to take advantage of the raw wood in flat contact by
gluing the corner laps together for added rigidity.
Flatter would be better for that use, yes?

Consider a "glue" that can be used with pressure treated wood,

Whups. I guessed that the chemical treatment penetration would
be shallow enough that the core would remain reasonably unaffected.
I was thinking on the order of say 1/4" depth max.
I will have to check into this. Thanks for the heads up.

and be aware that a lap joint is one joint, particularly in this application,
that, in addition to being "glued", needs to be either pinned or screwed
together.

Yup. I bought a couple boxes of chemical resistant square drive
fasteners from a local 'pro' lumber shop. I figured the shorter
fasteners for the lap corners and the longer fasteners to attach the
fence boards to the frame. Lag bolts for the hinges.


--Winston


--

Harley was venal, arrogant, despicable and a psychologist.
He was the second most redundant man I ever talked to.

On 4/27/2010 12:36 AM, Winston wrote:
On 4/26/2010 7:14 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 4/26/2010 9:04 PM, Winston wrote:

I was hoping to take advantage of the raw wood in flat contact by
gluing the corner laps together for added rigidity.
Flatter would be better for that use, yes?

Consider a "glue" that can be used with pressure treated wood,

Whups. I guessed that the chemical treatment penetration would
be shallow enough that the core would remain reasonably unaffected.
I was thinking on the order of say 1/4" depth max.
I will have to check into this. Thanks for the heads up.

The whole point of pressure treatment is that it goes all the way through.

and be aware that a lap joint is one joint, particularly in this
application,
that, in addition to being "glued", needs to be either pinned or screwed
together.

Yup. I bought a couple boxes of chemical resistant square drive
fasteners from a local 'pro' lumber shop. I figured the shorter
fasteners for the lap corners and the longer fasteners to attach the
fence boards to the frame. Lag bolts for the hinges.


--Winston

"J. Clarke" wrote in
:


The whole point of pressure treatment is that it goes all the way
through.


So, when you cut off a piece of pressure treated lumber, and only the first
1/4" or so is brown and the rest looks like regular wood (a little darker)
what's the difference between the brown and the yellowish center?

Puckdropper
--
Never teach your apprentice everything you know.

On 4/27/2010 4:18 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
"J. wrote in
:


The whole point of pressure treatment is that it goes all the way
through.


So, when you cut off a piece of pressure treated lumber, and only the first
1/4" or so is brown and the rest looks like regular wood (a little darker)
what's the difference between the brown and the yellowish center?

Crappy treatment.

On 4/27/2010 5:07 AM, dadiOH wrote:
Winston wrote:

(...)

Doubtlessly someone makes a 7-1/4" circular saw blade with a wide kerf
(say 1/4"?) just perfect for this app.

Put on more than one blade.

Oh! You guys weren't kidding?

I shall try that.

Thanks!

--Winston


--

Harley was venal, arrogant, despicable and a psychologist.
He was the second most redundant man I ever talked to.

On 4/26/2010 10:43 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
On 4/27/2010 12:36 AM, Winston wrote:
On 4/26/2010 7:14 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 4/26/2010 9:04 PM, Winston wrote:

I was hoping to take advantage of the raw wood in flat contact by
gluing the corner laps together for added rigidity.
Flatter would be better for that use, yes?

Consider a "glue" that can be used with pressure treated wood,

Whups. I guessed that the chemical treatment penetration would
be shallow enough that the core would remain reasonably unaffected.
I was thinking on the order of say 1/4" depth max.
I will have to check into this. Thanks for the heads up.

The whole point of pressure treatment is that it goes all the way through.

That'll be the thing I learned today. Thanks!

--Winston

--

Harley was venal, arrogant, despicable and a psychologist.
He was the second most redundant man I ever talked to.

On Mon, 26 Apr 2010 20:14:21 -0500, the infamous
(Robert Bonomi) scrawled the following:

In article ,
Winston wrote:
On 4/26/2010 1:48 PM, Robert Bonomi wrote:
In ,
wrote:

(...)


What would SuperWoodworker do?

Skilsaw (or equivalent), cut across the 2x4 at the proper distance from
the end, then use the Neander approach -- wide wood chisel and a hammer
to 'split' in from the end.

*WAY* less dust than the router will throw up.

Of course, you've got to be able to chisel a flat surface. for the lap.

Yes. Please see my forth sentence.

To reduce the effort of Neandering, do a -series- of parallel custs with
the Skilsaw, then break the 'fingers' off, and clean up with the chisel.

Hi, Robert.

I may revisit this approach, particularly if I can find a circular
saw blade with a very wide kerf (1/4" or wider?).

I suppose you could put two blades on the saw. *grin*
an actual dado set, "wobble" or otherwise, is definitely not a good idea,

Yeah, and if one's installed backwards, it'll cut well on the return
stroke, huh? chortle


My first attempt failed because I left way too much room between cuts,
as mentioned by other groupers.

BTW, there's nothing that says you have to leave _any_ space between the
cuts -- you can take it all off with the saw blade. "Break it off, and
clean up with a chisel and/or rasp" just tends to be easier/faster,
particularly, when you're going 'along' the grain.

Bbbut, that's awfully tricky to do.


My chisel-fu is not going to be up to your standard, so it may pay
me to continue to let the router create the flat surfaces I require.

I'll merely point out that you don't _need_ "flat" surfaces, just that
the two surfaces to be joined 'match". This -is- easier to do, with a
bit of 'lay them to together and see where they bind'.

Yes you do need flat. Wavy surfaces don't glue-up well. Curved is OK
if they mate, but "fairly flat" is a necessity.


I'm not disparaging the way you're currently doing it -- if it works _for_you_
that's all that matters. grin

When the opportunity presents itself, it is always worthwhile experimenting
with alternative approaches -- who knows, one of them *may* fit you better
than the way you have been doing it. Of course, it may not, but you're never
going to know until you try it.

True, try things until one "fits" your style.


One other alternative to consider, *IF* you've got the space to stand the 2x4
_on_end_, and support it stably, is to use a "back saw" (hand saw with a
reinforced spine on the blade) to cut down the middle of the 2x4s, and then
lay them down and cut off one of the 'sides', either with the back saw, or
a power saw. This +does+ call for some skill with the back saw, to hold it
vertical as you get the cut started.

[One could also set the depth stop in an SCMS (sliding compound miter
saw) and cut them on one of those, Pooh.]

--
Losing faith in humanity, one person at a time.

On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 01:43:14 -0400, the infamous "J. Clarke"
scrawled the following:

On 4/27/2010 12:36 AM, Winston wrote:
On 4/26/2010 7:14 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 4/26/2010 9:04 PM, Winston wrote:

I was hoping to take advantage of the raw wood in flat contact by
gluing the corner laps together for added rigidity.
Flatter would be better for that use, yes?

Consider a "glue" that can be used with pressure treated wood,

Whups. I guessed that the chemical treatment penetration would
be shallow enough that the core would remain reasonably unaffected.
I was thinking on the order of say 1/4" depth max.
I will have to check into this. Thanks for the heads up.

The whole point of pressure treatment is that it goes all the way through.

YOU, sir, have obviously never cut a pressure treated piece of lumber
in half. The core is never, in my experience, fully treated. Copper
solutions only penetrate about 1/4", as discussed above.

That's why I keep 2 colors of dye/preservative in my truck. I have to
daub it on the cut ends of PT lumber when I'm done so it matches and
is protected from bugs and moisture. http://fwd4.me/EMu brown (most
used) and http://fwd4.me/EMy (green) are what I've found locally.


and be aware that a lap joint is one joint, particularly in this
application,
that, in addition to being "glued", needs to be either pinned or screwed
together.

Yup. I bought a couple boxes of chemical resistant square drive
fasteners from a local 'pro' lumber shop. I figured the shorter
fasteners for the lap corners and the longer fasteners to attach the
fence boards to the frame. Lag bolts for the hinges.

I've been using the epoxy coated deck screws, but find that upon
removal, half the epoxy is rubbed off. I'm in the process of
converting my stock to galv once again. I want my hard work to
outlast me. Square drive is definitely the best answer, too, with
combo (pozi and square) the next best thing. TORX is quite good, as
well, but square is my fave.

--
Losing faith in humanity, one person at a time.

On 27 Apr 2010 08:18:03 GMT, the infamous Puckdropper
puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com scrawled the following:

"J. Clarke" wrote in
:


The whole point of pressure treatment is that it goes all the way
through.


So, when you cut off a piece of pressure treated lumber, and only the first
1/4" or so is brown and the rest looks like regular wood (a little darker)
what's the difference between the brown and the yellowish center?

Treating. The untreated center is yellowish.

--
Losing faith in humanity, one person at a time.

Winston wrote:
On 4/26/2010 9:04 PM, Winston wrote:
....
I was hoping to take advantage of the raw wood in flat contact by
gluing the corner laps together for added rigidity.
....
If I'm reading your intent correctly, the corner would be grain at
90-deg angles. Such a cross-grain joint will fail shortly even w/o the
exposure to weather. Forget the glue; if anything, a flexible glue
_might_ help serve as a moisture barrier similar to a caulk. The
abutted faces will be a moisture wicking point.

As for cutting them, I make the shoulder cut w/ the circular saw and
then use the bow saw (rip blade) to cut the length. Some practice and
can do that as clean or cleaner than any other way and as quickly as well.

--

On 4/27/2010 6:51 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 01:43:14 -0400, the infamous "J. Clarke"
scrawled the following:

On 4/27/2010 12:36 AM, Winston wrote:

(...)

Whups. I guessed that the chemical treatment penetration would
be shallow enough that the core would remain reasonably unaffected.
I was thinking on the order of say 1/4" depth max.
I will have to check into this. Thanks for the heads up.

The whole point of pressure treatment is that it goes all the way through.

YOU, sir, have obviously never cut a pressure treated piece of lumber
in half. The core is never, in my experience, fully treated. Copper
solutions only penetrate about 1/4", as discussed above.

So, I learned *two* things this week.
They are mutually contradictory, but I stand by my count.



Larry, can I use regular wood glue to bond inner fibers of PT doug fir?
Would epoxy work better? Some other adhesive perhaps?


That's why I keep 2 colors of dye/preservative in my truck. I have to
daub it on the cut ends of PT lumber when I'm done so it matches and
is protected from bugs and moisture. http://fwd4.me/EMu brown (most
used) and http://fwd4.me/EMy (green) are what I've found locally.

Yup, I have a can of 'environmentally friendly' sealant for cut ends.
It seems to work because I saw no deterioration in some diagonally cut
4 x 4 s that lived in the sun and rain for a decade.

(...)

I've been using the epoxy coated deck screws, but find that upon
removal, half the epoxy is rubbed off. I'm in the process of
converting my stock to galv once again. I want my hard work to
outlast me. Square drive is definitely the best answer, too, with
combo (pozi and square) the next best thing. TORX is quite good, as
well, but square is my fave.

Ya got that right! I tested my first square drive fasteners in lumber
a couple days ago. Absolutely *no* cam-out, even with a 2-1/2" long
screw into dry wood. Solid, Jackson.

---

Discovered an interesting thing (parenthetically speaking).
The same screws are sold in entirely different ways per market.

A 5 lb box of coated 2-1/2" screws cost me $15.00 at the local 'pro'
wood monger. The box is marked "use with phillips *or* square driver".

The same screws from the same manufacturer sold at Home Depot is
priced at $28.00 and the box makes no mention of the 'square drive'
ability, though the heads are clearly the same. It's almost as if they
want you to cam the screw heads. Funny, that.

--Winston





--

Harley was venal, arrogant, despicable and a psychologist.
He was the second most redundant man I ever talked to.

On 4/27/2010 8:19 AM, dadiOH wrote:
J. Clarke wrote:
On 4/27/2010 12:36 AM, Winston wrote:
On 4/26/2010 7:14 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 4/26/2010 9:04 PM, Winston wrote:

I was hoping to take advantage of the raw wood in flat contact by
gluing the corner laps together for added rigidity.
Flatter would be better for that use, yes?

Consider a "glue" that can be used with pressure treated wood,

Whups. I guessed that the chemical treatment penetration would
be shallow enough that the core would remain reasonably unaffected.
I was thinking on the order of say 1/4" depth max.
I will have to check into this. Thanks for the heads up.

The whole point of pressure treatment is that it goes all the way
through.

Nope. Either that or you can get better PT than I can. There are also
different strengths of PT; eg, ground contact, direct burial, etc.

I have always heard - and agree - that if you cut a piece of PT the
resultant raw wood should receive an application of a fungicide. I always
do so with Cuprinol.

Any PT I've cut up is the same color all the way through. Yes, there
are different grades but that is due to different formulation and
concentration of the treating bath and to different treating techniques,
not to different degrees of penetration.

If it's dimension lumber and it's not the same color all the way through
(leaving aside heartwood vs sapwood) then it's crappy treatment and you
should return it and demand a replacement that has been properly
treated. Heavy pilings sometimes don't get quite that degree of
uniformity but even there most of the sapwood should be penetrated.

On 4/27/2010 6:59 AM, dpb wrote:
Winston wrote:
On 4/26/2010 9:04 PM, Winston wrote:
...
I was hoping to take advantage of the raw wood in flat contact by
gluing the corner laps together for added rigidity.
...
If I'm reading your intent correctly, the corner would be grain at
90-deg angles.

Yes.

Such a cross-grain joint will fail shortly even w/o the
exposure to weather.

Even with screws through the facing boards and through the lap joints?
I had no idea doug fir was that weak. I shall have to rethink this.

Perhaps I should weld up a steel box tube frame and use tek screws
to hold the facing boards to the front. That'd work but I suspect
it would have to be powder coated. This woodworking stuff is more
complicated than I thought it would be!

Forget the glue; if anything, a flexible glue
_might_ help serve as a moisture barrier similar to a caulk. The abutted
faces will be a moisture wicking point.

As for cutting them, I make the shoulder cut w/ the circular saw and
then use the bow saw (rip blade) to cut the length. Some practice and
can do that as clean or cleaner than any other way and as quickly as well.

I can't even place a proper axial cut with a band saw!

As you say above, it would all fall apart quickly anyway.

This is educational. Thanks for your thoughts.

--Winston



--

Harley was venal, arrogant, despicable and a psychologist.
He was the second most redundant man I ever talked to.

On 4/27/2010 6:42 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Mon, 26 Apr 2010 20:14:21 -0500, the infamous
(Robert Bonomi) scrawled the following:

In ,
wrote:
On 4/26/2010 1:48 PM, Robert Bonomi wrote:
In ,
wrote:

(...)


What would SuperWoodworker do?

Skilsaw (or equivalent), cut across the 2x4 at the proper distance from
the end, then use the Neander approach -- wide wood chisel and a hammer
to 'split' in from the end.

*WAY* less dust than the router will throw up.

Of course, you've got to be able to chisel a flat surface. for the lap.

Yes. Please see my forth sentence.

To reduce the effort of Neandering, do a -series- of parallel custs with
the Skilsaw, then break the 'fingers' off, and clean up with the chisel.

Hi, Robert.

I may revisit this approach, particularly if I can find a circular
saw blade with a very wide kerf (1/4" or wider?).

I suppose you could put two blades on the saw. *grin*
an actual dado set, "wobble" or otherwise, is definitely not a good idea,

Yeah, and if one's installed backwards, it'll cut well on the return
stroke, huh?chortle

I will be all set during the 'big crunch'!

My first attempt failed because I left way too much room between cuts,
as mentioned by other groupers.

BTW, there's nothing that says you have to leave _any_ space between the
cuts -- you can take it all off with the saw blade. "Break it off, and
clean up with a chisel and/or rasp" just tends to be easier/faster,
particularly, when you're going 'along' the grain.

Bbbut, that's awfully tricky to do.

Indeed.

One other alternative to consider, *IF* you've got the space to stand the 2x4
_on_end_, and support it stably, is to use a "back saw" (hand saw with a
reinforced spine on the blade) to cut down the middle of the 2x4s, and then
lay them down and cut off one of the 'sides', either with the back saw, or
a power saw. This +does+ call for some skill with the back saw, to hold it
vertical as you get the cut started.

That is all but impossible for me. You should see some of the unintentional
angles I've placed along axes over the years using various saws.
Great for making stakes but I'm fresh out of vampires. Very discouraging.


[One could also set the depth stop in an SCMS (sliding compound miter
saw) and cut them on one of those, Pooh.]

Sometimes I forget to just walk over to the proper machine in my
10k foot^2 wood shop, like you do on your show, Norm.

http://www.klockit.com/itm_img/49597.jpg

But seriously, I'm trying to limit myself to only one new tool per project.

--Winston


--

Harley was venal, arrogant, despicable and a psychologist.
He was the second most redundant man I ever talked to.

Winston wrote:
The proper answer is 'buy or borrow a table saw with a dado blade'.

However, I don't want to.

I want to use my plunge router to place a 3-1/2" square lap joint
about 3/4" deep on the ends of several pressure treated 2x4s.
(snip)
What would SuperWoodworker do?


SuperWoodworker might double up 1x4s rather than cutting lap joints in
2x4s, depending on the application.

On 4/27/2010 8:06 AM, Mike Paulsen wrote:
Winston wrote:
The proper answer is 'buy or borrow a table saw with a dado blade'.

However, I don't want to.

I want to use my plunge router to place a 3-1/2" square lap joint
about 3/4" deep on the ends of several pressure treated 2x4s.
(snip)
What would SuperWoodworker do?


SuperWoodworker might double up 1x4s rather than cutting lap joints in
2x4s, depending on the application.

Great idea but 2 x 4 was the smallest PT lumber I could find.

As dpb says, grain orientation would prevent the joint from being
structurally sound anyway, so perhaps a steel frame or maybe
some "L" StrongTie joints.

http://www.strongtie.com/products/connectors/T-L.asp

Thanks for helping the noob, guys.

--Winston



--

Harley was venal, arrogant, despicable and a psychologist.
He was the second most redundant man I ever talked to.

Winston wrote:
On 4/27/2010 8:06 AM, Mike Paulsen wrote:

SuperWoodworker might double up 1x4s rather than cutting lap joints
in 2x4s, depending on the application.

Great idea but 2 x 4 was the smallest PT lumber I could find.

As dpb says, grain orientation would prevent the joint from being
structurally sound anyway, so perhaps a steel frame or maybe
some "L" StrongTie joints.


Just be careful how far you take principles. Sure - a cross grain joint is
inherently inferior to a joint where the grain runs in the same direction -
but will you ever notice that? For centuries, cross grain joints have been
in use and have served very well. You can take the theory too far and get
all caught up in what you should not do. Net result - analysis paralysis.
You'll never build anything. The governing factor should be whether the
particular joint, or technique is sufficient for the task at hand, not
whether it is the best theoretical approach. A good guiding light is the
preponderance of evidence of eons of time. Ignore all the rest.

--

-Mike-

On Apr 27, 11:42*am, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:
Winston wrote:
On 4/27/2010 8:06 AM, Mike Paulsen wrote:
SuperWoodworker might double up 1x4s rather than cutting lap joints
in 2x4s, depending on the application.

Great idea but 2 x 4 was the smallest PT lumber I could find.

As dpb says, grain orientation would prevent the joint from being
structurally sound anyway, so perhaps a steel frame or maybe
some "L" StrongTie joints.

Just be careful how far you take principles. *Sure - a cross grain joint is
inherently inferior to a joint where the grain runs in the same direction -
but will you ever notice that? *For centuries, cross grain joints have been
in use and have served very well. *You can take the theory too far and get
all caught up in what you should not do. *Net result - analysis paralysis.
You'll never build anything. *The governing factor should be whether the
particular joint, or technique is sufficient for the task at hand, not
whether it is the best theoretical approach. *A good guiding light is the
preponderance of evidence of eons of time. *Ignore all the rest.

--

-Mike-


"You can take the theory too far and get all caught up in what you
should not do. Net result - analysis paralysis."

Well said!

BTDT