On 4/28/2010 6:37 AM, Jack Stein wrote:

(Thoughtful reference to unfortunately wasted bandwidth deleted).

Anyway, my opinion on all this is you should, just on general
principles, figure out how to set up and use your BS to make these half
lap joints.

You are right of course.
My bandsaw however is very cheaply made.
With extensive tuning and tweaking, it still refuses to cut straight.

I've used *good* band saws that do cut straight. This ain't one of them.
Of course it didn't cost like a real band saw does either.

You could have trouble with a gate made from PT lumber unless it is high
quality lumber, but even then, PT lumber is treated while green, and
when it dries out, all sorts of nasty stuff can happen, usually it warps
or cracks where prevented from warping. You can get high quality PT
lumber, I've seen it in outdoor furniture, but I never saw it available
locally at the borgs. Having said that, I made my gate out of PT years
ago, and it is fine, but care and experience and some luck is needed in
cherry picking the lumber.

Waddaya gonna do. I repaired a back yard fence a few years ago.
Used redwood 1 x 4 as a top rail. Most of it still looks pretty good
but there is one end that just levitated off its post. Nasty looking
even after reattachment with more competent screws.

Apparently I "can't get there from here"!

We shall see how this turns out. Honestly, these gates only have
to last a few years until I can get around to replacing the concrete in
the affected side yard. Then I will weld up something with box tube.

That stuff almost never warps, checks or cracks.

Lastly, don't use wood glue like white, yellow and so on, use high
quality construction adhesive as it will fill the rough joints made with
BS or circular saw, and remain somewhat flexible and less susceptible to
seasonal movements particularly in cross grain of a lap joint, and is
weather proof.

Good. I will 'stick' with the subfloor construction adhesive Swingman
suggested and clamp the daylights out of it.


Thanks, Jack


--Winston





--

Harley was venal, arrogant, despicable and a psychologist.
He was the second most redundant man I ever talked to.

"Jack Stein" wrote in message
...
J. Clarke wrote:
On 4/27/2010 8:19 AM, dadiOH wrote:
J. Clarke wrote:

The whole point of pressure treatment is that it goes all the way
through.

Nope. Either that or you can get better PT than I can. There are also
different strengths of PT; eg, ground contact, direct burial, etc.

I have always heard - and agree - that if you cut a piece of PT the
resultant raw wood should receive an application of a fungicide. I
always
do so with Cuprinol.

Any PT I've cut up is the same color all the way through. Yes, there are
different grades but that is due to different formulation and
concentration of the treating bath and to different treating techniques,
not to different degrees of penetration.

J. Clark is right. Here are 3 pictures of wolmanized 2x4 and a 2x6 I had
laying around my shop. These are above ground pieces, not rated for below
ground use and whether the pictures show it well or not, I can tell you
the treatment is all the way through. The 3rd one shows the heart wood
is a different color but the treatment is throughout, and not just he
first 1/4".

This is standard wolmanized lumber, can't say where I bought it but
probably 84 lumber, a lumber yard.

http://jbstein.com/Flick/Wolman1.jpg
http://jbstein.com/Flick/Wolman2.jpg
http://jbstein.com/Flick/Wolman3.jpg

If it's dimension lumber and it's not the same color all the way through
(leaving aside heartwood vs sapwood) then it's crappy treatment and you
should return it and demand a replacement that has been properly treated.
Heavy pilings sometimes don't get quite that degree of uniformity but
even there most of the sapwood should be penetrated.

I'm pretty sure PT wood must be green when treated. If it is dry, the
treatment won't penetrate as it is some sort of hygroscopic hocus pocus
that is going on?

I don't know about DF but all 2x SYP is treated dry and 4x and 6x have
to be below 25% moisture content.

basilisk

On 4/28/2010 10:33 AM, Winston wrote:
On 4/28/2010 5:41 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 20:03:55 -0700, the infamous Winston
scrawled the following:

On 4/27/2010 7:04 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 14:19:44 -0400, the infamous "J. Clarke"
scrawled the following:


Suggestion--on any gate put in a diagonal brace. This can be a
board, a
piece of wire, a threaded rod, or whatever else suits your fancy. With
a diagonal brace it's much much less likely to sag.

Also note that aliphatic resin glues like Titebond, while they are
very
strong, tend to creep when subjected to continuous load.

That's an excellent suggestion.

ACE Hardware sells a gate brace kit with a length of wire rope, a pair
of angle bracket ends, screws, and a turnbuckle for $15. They're well
worth it and out-perform z bracing by tenfold.

Yeahbut.

I wanna do it myself!



OK, and then do it again when the latch bolt doesn't line up any more
in the spring, and again in the fall, and twice next year, too. I
prefer a 30 second fix, myself. YMMV

You are doubtlessly right, Larry. (It's 'highlight then CTRL-C')

I would like something that looks as if I intended it as part of
the design in the first place, rather than something that is
effective but looks like 'just another Winston bodge'.

I would even go for some diagonal 1/4" threaded rod
with a turnbuckle feature in the middle.

I must ponder.

One option is to have a sailboat shop or an airframe mechanic make you
up a couple of lengths of rigging cable with swaged studs on each end,
making sure one of them is a left hand thread to take a turnbuckle. Not
gonna be cheap, but nobody's going to think it's a "bodge".

Or if you _gotta_ do it yourself get some stainless cable and Norseman
fittings (they make a left hand stud but good luck actually finding one
in stock anywhere).

"J. Clarke" wrote

One option is to have a sailboat shop or an airframe mechanic make you up
a couple of lengths of rigging cable with swaged studs on each end, making
sure one of them is a left hand thread to take a turnbuckle. Not gonna be
cheap, but nobody's going to think it's a "bodge".

Or if you _gotta_ do it yourself get some stainless cable and Norseman
fittings (they make a left hand stud but good luck actually finding one in
stock anywhere).

I used to make gym equipment and bought a swaging tool and cable cutters. I
have since used them many times to make all sorts of things. One application
that was totally a surprise was to make some short cables connected to
eyebolts for shipping machinery in crates. The cables were looped over the
axles or some other part. They were then boltd to the crate bottom. I did a
bunch of those.

And lots of gates, fenceposts and even a leaning garage once.

Therre is a small swaging tool that I saw someplace that costs about $40. It
uses a wrench to tighten the jaws around the swage. I bought mine from a
cable shop. It was cheaper for me to buy all the tools and supplies than to
have them make me up three cables. If you make your own, you just loop the
cable through the eyebolts of the turnbuckle.

You need to measure carefully though. I screwed up a couple of thmes and had
to remake a cable. I now make up one. Then attach one end of the other. Take
some measurements. And only then will I put on that last fitting. With
turnbuckles, you don't get much room to make mistakes.

On 4/28/2010 3:48 PM, J. Clarke wrote:

(...)

One option is to have a sailboat shop or an airframe mechanic make you
up a couple of lengths of rigging cable with swaged studs on each end,
making sure one of them is a left hand thread to take a turnbuckle. Not
gonna be cheap, but nobody's going to think it's a "bodge".

Or if you _gotta_ do it yourself get some stainless cable and Norseman
fittings (they make a left hand stud but good luck actually finding one
in stock anywhere).


I did a little research using your key phrases and
stumbled across this Beautiful Thing:

http://www.prescable.com/top_hat.htm

I would need to fabricate a couple plates to distribute the
end stress over say 2 in^2 but that assembly appeals to me
greatly. I will be seated when I am told the price.

Oh Boy!

--Winston

On 4/28/2010 5:06 PM, Lee Michaels wrote:
"J. Clarke" wrote

One option is to have a sailboat shop or an airframe mechanic make you up
a couple of lengths of rigging cable with swaged studs on each end, making
sure one of them is a left hand thread to take a turnbuckle. Not gonna be
cheap, but nobody's going to think it's a "bodge".

Or if you _gotta_ do it yourself get some stainless cable and Norseman
fittings (they make a left hand stud but good luck actually finding one in
stock anywhere).

I used to make gym equipment and bought a swaging tool and cable cutters. I
have since used them many times to make all sorts of things.

(Snip interesting application data)

What do you think of this assembly, if I carefully avoided
stress risers on the ends?

http://www.prescable.com/top_hat.htm

It doesn't look cheep but if it was reasonably priced, I would be
able to justify the cost of the ferrule crimpers.

--Winston

"Winston" wrote ...
On 4/28/2010 5:06 PM, Lee Michaels wrote:
"J. Clarke" wrote

One option is to have a sailboat shop or an airframe mechanic make you
up
a couple of lengths of rigging cable with swaged studs on each end,
making
sure one of them is a left hand thread to take a turnbuckle. Not gonna
be
cheap, but nobody's going to think it's a "bodge".

Or if you _gotta_ do it yourself get some stainless cable and Norseman
fittings (they make a left hand stud but good luck actually finding one
in
stock anywhere).

I used to make gym equipment and bought a swaging tool and cable cutters.
I
have since used them many times to make all sorts of things.

(Snip interesting application data)

What do you think of this assembly, if I carefully avoided
stress risers on the ends?

http://www.prescable.com/top_hat.htm

It doesn't look cheep but if it was reasonably priced, I would be
able to justify the cost of the ferrule crimpers.

That is way over my head. I just used eyebolts, cable and turrnbuckles.
They don't cost that much. I assume you are talking about a gate brace.

If you are talking about that fancy cab;e fence, that is a whole other
thing. That gets into high end fabrication, hardware, etc.

On 4/28/2010 8:22 PM, Lee Michaels wrote:
"Winston" wrote ...

(...)

What do you think of this assembly, if I carefully avoided
stress risers on the ends?

http://www.prescable.com/top_hat.htm

It doesn't look cheep but if it was reasonably priced, I would be
able to justify the cost of the ferrule crimpers.

That is way over my head. I just used eyebolts, cable and turrnbuckles.
They don't cost that much. I assume you are talking about a gate brace.

Yup. Something a little more attractive (or less visible)
than the standard eyebolt-cable-turnbuckle combo.

If you are talking about that fancy cab;e fence, that is a whole other
thing. That gets into high end fabrication, hardware, etc.

Oh no! I'm still talking 2x4s and fence boards. Nothing fancy.

--Winston

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
...
Winston wrote:



Thanks for the info, guys.

I am satisfied that the diagonal 2x4 brace will be more than
sufficient. At least that was the case with the gates that are
currently in place.
--Winston

Likely will. For a different look and feel, there is always the option of
corner bracing - not gussets, but bracing that fits within the door frame
itself, but rather than running diagonally corner to corner, just short
pieces in each corner. All a matter of personal taste.


This is all over a gate?? The corner kits they sell at the Borg work great!
No joints or glue required. Cut the stock to size and screw the corners to
it. Two of the corners come with hinges attached.

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 20:03:55 -0700, the infamous Winston
scrawled the following:

On 4/27/2010 7:04 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 14:19:44 -0400, the infamous "J. Clarke"
scrawled the following:


Suggestion--on any gate put in a diagonal brace. This can be a board,
a
piece of wire, a threaded rod, or whatever else suits your fancy. With
a diagonal brace it's much much less likely to sag.

Also note that aliphatic resin glues like Titebond, while they are very
strong, tend to creep when subjected to continuous load.

That's an excellent suggestion.

ACE Hardware sells a gate brace kit with a length of wire rope, a pair
of angle bracket ends, screws, and a turnbuckle for $15. They're well
worth it and out-perform z bracing by tenfold.

Yeahbut.

I wanna do it myself!



OK, and then do it again when the latch bolt doesn't line up any more
in the spring, and again in the fall, and twice next year, too. I
prefer a 30 second fix, myself. YMMV


If the latch bolt no longer lines up, you just move the bolt end ... :-()

"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
On 4/28/2010 10:33 AM, Winston wrote:
On 4/28/2010 5:41 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 20:03:55 -0700, the infamous Winston
scrawled the following:

On 4/27/2010 7:04 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 14:19:44 -0400, the infamous "J. Clarke"
scrawled the following:


Suggestion--on any gate put in a diagonal brace. This can be a
board, a
piece of wire, a threaded rod, or whatever else suits your fancy.
With
a diagonal brace it's much much less likely to sag.

Also note that aliphatic resin glues like Titebond, while they are
very
strong, tend to creep when subjected to continuous load.

That's an excellent suggestion.

ACE Hardware sells a gate brace kit with a length of wire rope, a pair
of angle bracket ends, screws, and a turnbuckle for $15. They're well
worth it and out-perform z bracing by tenfold.

Yeahbut.

I wanna do it myself!



OK, and then do it again when the latch bolt doesn't line up any more
in the spring, and again in the fall, and twice next year, too. I
prefer a 30 second fix, myself. YMMV

You are doubtlessly right, Larry. (It's 'highlight then CTRL-C')

I would like something that looks as if I intended it as part of
the design in the first place, rather than something that is
effective but looks like 'just another Winston bodge'.

I would even go for some diagonal 1/4" threaded rod
with a turnbuckle feature in the middle.

I must ponder.

One option is to have a sailboat shop or an airframe mechanic make you up
a couple of lengths of rigging cable with swaged studs on each end, making
sure one of them is a left hand thread to take a turnbuckle. Not gonna be
cheap, but nobody's going to think it's a "bodge".

Or if you _gotta_ do it yourself get some stainless cable and Norseman
fittings (they make a left hand stud but good luck actually finding one in
stock anywhere).






Serious Overkill!! LOL!!

On 4/29/2010 1:24 AM, Rumple Stiltskin wrote:

(...)

This is all over a gate??

No! It's about two gates.

The corner kits they sell at the Borg work
great! No joints or glue required. Cut the stock to size and screw the
corners to it. Two of the corners come with hinges attached.

168 smackers for a few bits of galvanize for both sides?

I think I can do better than that.

Besides "I wanna do it myself!"



--Winston

On 4/29/2010 1:27 AM, Rumple Stiltskin wrote:

(...)

Serious Overkill!! LOL!!

Really? Hmm.

--Winston -- Uses drill press as paper punch.

On 4/29/2010 1:27 AM, Rumple Stiltskin wrote:
"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
news

(...)

OK, and then do it again when the latch bolt doesn't line up any more
in the spring, and again in the fall, and twice next year, too. I
prefer a 30 second fix, myself. YMMV


If the latch bolt no longer lines up, you just move the bolt end ... :-()

That's what I've been doing, twice a year.

It sure tears up the verticals on the swinging end of the gates.
If I'm going to have something that is 'high maintenance', it should
be a *lot* more fun to play with than a fence gate.


--Winston

Winston wrote in news:hrc1j411m65
@news7.newsguy.com:

*snip*

--Winston -- Uses drill press as paper punch.


How do you get around the ragged edge issue? I've thought about using the
drill press a couple times when I had to punch a bunch of holes, but it
seems to me the edges would all come out ragged and be easy to tear.

I've never gotten around to sharpening a hollow tube and using that in the
DP.

Puckdropper
--
Never teach your apprentice everything you know.

Winston wrote:
On 4/28/2010 6:37 AM, Jack Stein wrote:

(Thoughtful reference to unfortunately wasted bandwidth deleted).

Anyway, my opinion on all this is you should, just on general
principles, figure out how to set up and use your BS to make these half
lap joints.

You are right of course.
My bandsaw however is very cheaply made.
With extensive tuning and tweaking, it still refuses to cut straight.

I don't have a cheap bandsaw, but it is old. My opinion, never having
used a cheap bandsaw mind you, is there is very little about a bs that
stops it from cutting "straight". If you can set the table at 90° to
the blade, and tension the blade enough so it is "taut" it should cut
"straight" Cutting an arc is more problematic as the guides on a
quality saw are better at this. Having said that, "straight" on a bs is
seldom parallel to the blade. Eventually, or always, a particular blade
will require cutting "straight" at an angle. This angle will change
from blade to blade, and cut to cut as it changes as the blade dulls. I
can't see anything about a band saw, cheap or expensive that prohibits
cutting straight?

I've used *good* band saws that do cut straight. This ain't one of them.
Of course it didn't cost like a real band saw does either.

I still think the main differences other than obvious stuff like depth
of cut and power is in ease of set up and maintaining set up. For
example, I can adjust my blade guide height while the saw is running,
you can't do that on all saws. At any rate, cutting straight I think is
more in technique and blade choice, but I've been wrong before...

We shall see how this turns out. Honestly, these gates only have
to last a few years until I can get around to replacing the concrete in
the affected side yard. Then I will weld up something with box tube.

People tend to use PT wood where it's not needed. This includes me.
You could build the gate out of any wood you want, white pine for
example, and it would not rot for probably 50 to 100 years, maybe 1000
years with proper construction and surface treatment.


--
Jack
You only have the rights you are willing to fight for.
http://jbstein.com

On 4/29/2010 6:52 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
wrote in news:hrc1j411m65
@news7.newsguy.com:

*snip*

--Winston-- Uses drill press as paper punch.


How do you get around the ragged edge issue? I've thought about using the
drill press a couple times when I had to punch a bunch of holes, but it
seems to me the edges would all come out ragged and be easy to tear.

I've never gotten around to sharpening a hollow tube and using that in the
DP.

You got it! The cutter is like a miniature pilotless hole saw, conceptually.

Notice the internal angle used to create a knife edge around the
business end:
http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/25...showimage.html

http://img.directindustry.com/images...bit-356008.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paper_drilling
https://officeequipmentmachineshop.c...FR5ciAodhXX-Eg

It goes without saying that you need to hold the paper down to the
table to prevent tearing.

--Winston

On 4/29/2010 7:22 AM, Jack Stein wrote:
Winston wrote:
On 4/28/2010 6:37 AM, Jack Stein wrote:

(Thoughtful reference to unfortunately wasted bandwidth deleted).

Anyway, my opinion on all this is you should, just on general
principles, figure out how to set up and use your BS to make these half
lap joints.

You are right of course.
My bandsaw however is very cheaply made.
With extensive tuning and tweaking, it still refuses to cut straight.

I don't have a cheap bandsaw, but it is old. My opinion, never having
used a cheap bandsaw mind you, is there is very little about a bs that
stops it from cutting "straight". If you can set the table at 90° to the
blade, and tension the blade enough so it is "taut" it should cut
"straight" Cutting an arc is more problematic as the guides on a quality
saw are better at this. Having said that, "straight" on a bs is seldom
parallel to the blade. Eventually, or always, a particular blade will
require cutting "straight" at an angle.

This makes the miter fence useless and the rip fence moderately so.

This angle will change from
blade to blade, and cut to cut as it changes as the blade dulls. I can't
see anything about a band saw, cheap or expensive that prohibits cutting
straight?

I don't know enough about the physics to explain it efficiently.
Perhaps the blade guides in my saw need to be ground or replaced.
I can visualize how the set screw could indent each mushy guide,
preventing a worn guide from getting close enough to the side of
the blade. That would do it for sure!

Having said that, I had a horizontal / vertical band saw that used
the outside of ball bearing races as lateral blade guides.
I could snug those guides tight enough to cause them to emit
ugly noises and the darned saw still wouldn't cut truly straight.
I never understood the reason.

I bought a Makita 'dry saw' for ferrous metal a few years ago.
*That thing* cuts *straight* and *fast*! (Nice miters, too).
It is a beautiful machine.

I've used *good* band saws that do cut straight. This ain't one of them.
Of course it didn't cost like a real band saw does either.

I still think the main differences other than obvious stuff like depth
of cut and power is in ease of set up and maintaining set up. For
example, I can adjust my blade guide height while the saw is running,
you can't do that on all saws. At any rate, cutting straight I think is
more in technique and blade choice, but I've been wrong before...

That is though provoking. I will have to check those guides.

We shall see how this turns out. Honestly, these gates only have
to last a few years until I can get around to replacing the concrete in
the affected side yard. Then I will weld up something with box tube.

People tend to use PT wood where it's not needed. This includes me. You
could build the gate out of any wood you want, white pine for example,
and it would not rot for probably 50 to 100 years, maybe 1000 years with
proper construction and surface treatment.

You got me there. I'm an electronics tech with *no* wood working skill
so I bumble along as well as I can with the generous advice from folks
who are in the know.

I've been told that regular doug fir 4x4s are perfectly fine for fence
posts, yet I always replace them with PT because of the astounding rate
at which the 'professionally installed' posts rot away.

This is where I'm happiest though because I'm learning new stuff!


--Winston

Winston wrote:
On 4/28/2010 11:11 AM, Jack Stein wrote:

J. Clark is right. Here are 3 pictures of wolmanized 2x4 and a 2x6 I had
laying around my shop. These are above ground pieces, not rated for
below ground use and whether the pictures show it well or not, I can
tell you the treatment is all the way through. The 3rd one shows the
heart wood is a different color but the treatment is throughout, and not
just he first 1/4".

This is standard wolmanized lumber, can't say where I bought it but
probably 84 lumber, a lumber yard.

http://jbstein.com/Flick/Wolman1.jpg
http://jbstein.com/Flick/Wolman2.jpg
http://jbstein.com/Flick/Wolman3.jpg

What pretty lumber you have there!

After thinking about it, the last PT lumber I bought was at Home Depot
when my son built a couple of picnic tables out of it. The pictures
just show that the treatment goes all the way through as J.Clark
professed, and the sticker still on the end says for above ground use.

That doesn't look anything like the bargain basement
sticks I'm working with.

You can bet I cherry picked like crazy. I never bought lumber w/o
cherry picking, even at the best lumber yards.

--
Jack
A.C.O.R.N: For Democrats that just can't vote often enough...
http://jbstein.com

On 4/29/2010 8:48 AM, dadiOH wrote:
Winston wrote:
On 4/29/2010 7:22 AM, Jack Stein wrote:
Winston wrote:
On 4/28/2010 6:37 AM, Jack Stein wrote:

(Thoughtful reference to unfortunately wasted bandwidth deleted).

Anyway, my opinion on all this is you should, just on general
principles, figure out how to set up and use your BS to make these
half lap joints.

You are right of course.
My bandsaw however is very cheaply made.
With extensive tuning and tweaking, it still refuses to cut
straight.

I don't have a cheap bandsaw, but it is old. My opinion, never having
used a cheap bandsaw mind you, is there is very little about a bs
that stops it from cutting "straight". If you can set the table at
90° to the blade, and tension the blade enough so it is "taut" it
should cut "straight" Cutting an arc is more problematic as the
guides on a quality saw are better at this. Having said that,
"straight" on a bs is seldom parallel to the blade. Eventually, or
always, a particular blade will require cutting "straight" at an
angle.

My saw is now cutting much straighter.
Thanks, Jack for the nudge.

I paid more careful attention when tightening the clamping setscrews
on the lateral blade guides. The setscrews on the top guide are not
normal to any surface on the guides, they are at an angle so that as
they bear down, they slide the guide in relation to the post.
I clamped the guide in place before tightening the clamping screw
and the saw is working much better.

http://users.stratuswave.net/~wd8jik/bjig/fence3.JPG


This makes the miter fence useless and the rip fence moderately so.

A bandsaw fence should be adjustable for drift. "Drift" is the deviation
from parallel to the blade. Drift is common to every bandsaw I have ever
used and depends on numerous things. If your fence isn't adjustable, throw
it away, it is worthless.

To adjust the fence, draw a straight line on a piece of wood 18-30" or so
long and cut along it *without* a fence. Once you have the wood being cut
straight, hold it in place and turn off the saw; now move the fence to the
wood and adjust its angle so it touches the wood you were cutting along its
entire length.

Miter gauges can be adjusted perpendicular to the fence once the fence is
adjusted.

In practice I rarely use a fence unless I am ripping lots of stuff and want
each to be close to the same thickness. Instead, I draw a line on the wood
and cut freehand using my thumb and finger as a two point fence; thumb in
front of the blade, finger after.

Copy that dadiOH.

Thanks!

--Winston

--

Harley was venal, arrogant, despicable and a psychologist.
He was the second most redundant man I ever talked to.

On Wed, 28 Apr 2010 06:56:45 -0500, the infamous
(Robert Bonomi) scrawled the following:

In article ,
Larry Jaques wrote:
On Mon, 26 Apr 2010 20:14:21 -0500, the infamous
(Robert Bonomi) scrawled the following:

Hi, Robert.

I may revisit this approach, particularly if I can find a circular
saw blade with a very wide kerf (1/4" or wider?).

I suppose you could put two blades on the saw. *grin*
an actual dado set, "wobble" or otherwise, is definitely not a good idea,

Yeah, and if one's installed backwards, it'll cut well on the return
stroke, huh? chortle

Awright, wiseacre! You *do* know that somebody actually makes a hand circular
saw with two *counter-rotating* blades on it, don't you?

ANYTHING Billy Mays sold is wonderful, right? 'Nuff said?


I'll merely point out that you don't _need_ "flat" surfaces, just that
the two surfaces to be joined 'match". This -is- easier to do, with a
bit of 'lay them to together and see where they bind'.

Yes you do need flat. Wavy surfaces don't glue-up well. Curved is OK
if they mate, but "fairly flat" is a necessity.

No, you do _not_ need flat. Consider a dovetail joint -- no flat surfaces
whatsoever. The _only_ requirement is that they mate up well.

Um, you're kidding, right? _All_ surfaces on dovies are flat. They're
just created at an angle which is non-perpendicular and non-parallel
to the lumber faces.


The _easiest_ way to ensure a good mating it to make both surfaces flat,
but it is -not- a requirement.

If you're using epoxy, that's true.

--
Losing faith in humanity, one person at a time.

On Wed, 28 Apr 2010 07:33:09 -0700, the infamous Winston
scrawled the following:

On 4/28/2010 5:41 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 20:03:55 -0700, the infamous Winston
scrawled the following:

On 4/27/2010 7:04 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 14:19:44 -0400, the infamous "J. Clarke"
scrawled the following:


Suggestion--on any gate put in a diagonal brace. This can be a board, a
piece of wire, a threaded rod, or whatever else suits your fancy. With
a diagonal brace it's much much less likely to sag.

Also note that aliphatic resin glues like Titebond, while they are very
strong, tend to creep when subjected to continuous load.

That's an excellent suggestion.

ACE Hardware sells a gate brace kit with a length of wire rope, a pair
of angle bracket ends, screws, and a turnbuckle for $15. They're well
worth it and out-perform z bracing by tenfold.

Yeahbut.

I wanna do it myself!



OK, and then do it again when the latch bolt doesn't line up any more
in the spring, and again in the fall, and twice next year, too. I
prefer a 30 second fix, myself. YMMV

You are doubtlessly right, Larry. (It's 'highlight then CTRL-C')

I would like something that looks as if I intended it as part of
the design in the first place, rather than something that is
effective but looks like 'just another Winston bodge'.

I would even go for some diagonal 1/4" threaded rod
with a turnbuckle feature in the middle.

Yeah, and pick up some of HD's spray-on "Pressure Treated Look" to
make it blend in with the sprayed lumber.

I must ponder.

Ponder why you went to HD for lumber, too, while you're at it.
titter

--
Losing faith in humanity, one person at a time.

On Wed, 28 Apr 2010 18:48:21 -0400, the infamous "J. Clarke"
scrawled the following:

On 4/28/2010 10:33 AM, Winston wrote:
On 4/28/2010 5:41 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 20:03:55 -0700, the infamous Winston
scrawled the following:

On 4/27/2010 7:04 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 14:19:44 -0400, the infamous "J. Clarke"
scrawled the following:


Suggestion--on any gate put in a diagonal brace. This can be a
board, a
piece of wire, a threaded rod, or whatever else suits your fancy. With
a diagonal brace it's much much less likely to sag.

Also note that aliphatic resin glues like Titebond, while they are
very
strong, tend to creep when subjected to continuous load.

That's an excellent suggestion.

ACE Hardware sells a gate brace kit with a length of wire rope, a pair
of angle bracket ends, screws, and a turnbuckle for $15. They're well
worth it and out-perform z bracing by tenfold.

Yeahbut.

I wanna do it myself!



OK, and then do it again when the latch bolt doesn't line up any more
in the spring, and again in the fall, and twice next year, too. I
prefer a 30 second fix, myself. YMMV

You are doubtlessly right, Larry. (It's 'highlight then CTRL-C')

I would like something that looks as if I intended it as part of
the design in the first place, rather than something that is
effective but looks like 'just another Winston bodge'.

I would even go for some diagonal 1/4" threaded rod
with a turnbuckle feature in the middle.

I must ponder.

One option is to have a sailboat shop or an airframe mechanic make you
up a couple of lengths of rigging cable with swaged studs on each end,
making sure one of them is a left hand thread to take a turnbuckle. Not
gonna be cheap, but nobody's going to think it's a "bodge".

I thought Winnie had a commaless budget. Stainless wire rope with
properly swaged ends would cost more than the entire rest of the
fence.


Or if you _gotta_ do it yourself get some stainless cable and Norseman
fittings (they make a left hand stud but good luck actually finding one
in stock anywhere).

www.Harborreight.com used to have some 4mm ends.




--
Losing faith in humanity, one person at a time.

On Wed, 28 Apr 2010 19:25:29 -0700, the infamous Winston
scrawled the following:

On 4/28/2010 5:06 PM, Lee Michaels wrote:
"J. Clarke" wrote

One option is to have a sailboat shop or an airframe mechanic make you up
a couple of lengths of rigging cable with swaged studs on each end, making
sure one of them is a left hand thread to take a turnbuckle. Not gonna be
cheap, but nobody's going to think it's a "bodge".

Or if you _gotta_ do it yourself get some stainless cable and Norseman
fittings (they make a left hand stud but good luck actually finding one in
stock anywhere).

I used to make gym equipment and bought a swaging tool and cable cutters. I
have since used them many times to make all sorts of things.

(Snip interesting application data)

What do you think of this assembly, if I carefully avoided
stress risers on the ends?

http://www.prescable.com/top_hat.htm

It doesn't look cheep but if it was reasonably priced, I would be
able to justify the cost of the ferrule crimpers.

Ten bucks a gate, + s/h. http://fwd4.me/DXc I've done half a dozen
this way and it really is nice, Winnie.

--
Losing faith in humanity, one person at a time.

On 4/29/2010 7:12 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:

(...)

Ten bucks a gate, + s/h. http://fwd4.me/DXc I've done half a dozen
this way and it really is nice, Winnie.


Say! That is way better than 80+ smackolas per side.
Thanks, Larry!

--Winston

On 4/29/2010 3:58 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Wed, 28 Apr 2010 07:33:09 -0700, the infamous Winston
scrawled the following:

(...)

I would even go for some diagonal 1/4" threaded rod
with a turnbuckle feature in the middle.

Yeah, and pick up some of HD's spray-on "Pressure Treated Look" to
make it blend in with the sprayed lumber.

'Khaki - in - a - can'? I will look for it.

Ponder why you went to HD for lumber, too, while you're at it.
titter

Yup. Don't ask me why I did that.

I've repaired a couple fences with wood from a local outfit
called 'Pine Cone Lumber'. Nice folks. Good quality.
Reasonable prices. Figured I'd save a buck by driving down
the street to HD anyway.

Bad Tech. *Thwack!* No Cookie.

--Winston

On 4/29/2010 5:48 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Wed, 28 Apr 2010 18:48:21 -0400, the infamous "J. Clarke"
scrawled the following:

(...)

One option is to have a sailboat shop or an airframe mechanic make you
up a couple of lengths of rigging cable with swaged studs on each end,
making sure one of them is a left hand thread to take a turnbuckle. Not
gonna be cheap, but nobody's going to think it's a "bodge".

I thought Winnie had a commaless budget. Stainless wire rope with
properly swaged ends would cost more than the entire rest of the
fence.

'S the reason I ask the knowledgeable.

Good info. Thanks!



Or if you _gotta_ do it yourself get some stainless cable and Norseman
fittings (they make a left hand stud but good luck actually finding one
in stock anywhere).

www.Harborreight.com used to have some 4mm ends.

Continuing Ponder Mode.

--Winston


--

Harley was venal, arrogant, despicable and a psychologist.
He was the second most redundant man I ever talked to.

On Thu, 29 Apr 2010 20:43:54 -0700, the infamous Winston
scrawled the following:

On 4/29/2010 7:12 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:

(...)

Ten bucks a gate, + s/h. http://fwd4.me/DXc I've done half a dozen
this way and it really is nice, Winnie.


Say! That is way better than 80+ smackolas per side.
Thanks, Larry!

And it readjusts in 30 seconds every other season, no tools involved
(-if- you greased the turnbuckle.)

--
Losing faith in humanity, one person at a time.

On Thu, 29 Apr 2010 20:51:36 -0700, the infamous Winston
scrawled the following:

On 4/29/2010 3:58 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Wed, 28 Apr 2010 07:33:09 -0700, the infamous Winston
scrawled the following:

(...)

I would even go for some diagonal 1/4" threaded rod
with a turnbuckle feature in the middle.

Yeah, and pick up some of HD's spray-on "Pressure Treated Look" to
make it blend in with the sprayed lumber.

'Khaki - in - a - can'? I will look for it.

More like "Hershey-squirt khaki", innit?


Ponder why you went to HD for lumber, too, while you're at it.
titter

Yup. Don't ask me why I did that.

I won't.


I've repaired a couple fences with wood from a local outfit
called 'Pine Cone Lumber'. Nice folks. Good quality.
Reasonable prices.

I've heard of them, believe it or not.


Figured I'd save a buck by driving down the street to HD anyway.

Didn't we warn you about doing that "thinking" thing? tsk tsk tsk
I've recently found out that our local hardware stores are priced
better than the electrical, plumbing, and fastener sections of HD, so
the new store in Phoenix (no, down the street here in Oregon, silly)
isn't a real draw to me any more.


Bad Tech. *Thwack!* No Cookie.

g

--
Losing faith in humanity, one person at a time.

On Thu, 29 Apr 2010 21:01:17 -0700, the infamous Winston
scrawled the following:

On 4/29/2010 5:48 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Wed, 28 Apr 2010 18:48:21 -0400, the infamous "J. Clarke"
scrawled the following:

(...)

One option is to have a sailboat shop or an airframe mechanic make you
up a couple of lengths of rigging cable with swaged studs on each end,
making sure one of them is a left hand thread to take a turnbuckle. Not
gonna be cheap, but nobody's going to think it's a "bodge".

I thought Winnie had a commaless budget. Stainless wire rope with
properly swaged ends would cost more than the entire rest of the
fence.

'S the reason I ask the knowledgeable.

Good info. Thanks!



Or if you _gotta_ do it yourself get some stainless cable and Norseman
fittings (they make a left hand stud but good luck actually finding one
in stock anywhere).

www.Harborreight.com used to have some 4mm ends.

Continuing Ponder Mode.

Oops, the F is missing there. But they're down for maintenance mode
since their shopping cart is passing out everyone else's info right
now. Oops. I checked yesterday and couldn't find their ends, so they
probably discontinued them. I should have bought some when I had the
chance. American made stainless fixtures are 10x the cost.

--
Losing faith in humanity, one person at a time.

dadiOH wrote:
Jack Stein wrote:

People tend to use PT wood where it's not needed. This includes me.
You could build the gate out of any wood you want, white pine for
example, and it would not rot for probably 50 to 100 years, maybe 1000
years with proper construction and surface treatment.

My first garden gate was made out of "white wood" well primed and painted.
It was rotted in less than a year. The PT replacement is about 12 now, no
rot. Much depends on environment.

Painted wood tends to rot immediately if moisture gets under the paint,
which it eventually always does. If the moisture gets under the paint,
it can't dry out, and rot always ensues. Unpainted, and untreated wood
will not rot if it can dry. Painted wood prevents rot until moisture
gets under the paint. Gates, other than posts sunk in the ground, tend
to air dry quite well in most environments.

I guess if you live in a rain forest or on the ocean, that would effect
things. Where do you live that a painted gate rotted in less than a year?

Also, I have not a clue what "white wood" might be?

--
Jack
Free men do not ask permission to bear arms.
http://jbstein.com

Larry Jaques wrote:

Yeah, and pick up some of HD's spray-on "Pressure Treated Look" to
make it blend in with the sprayed lumber.

I've bought PT lumber at HD and it was fine, and the treatment went all
the way through as shown in the pictures I posted.
I must ponder.

Ponder why you went to HD for lumber, too, while you're at it.
titter

About every lumber yard within reach has disappeared from my area. I
buy lumber at HD and have been mostly happy with it. I recently bought
some 3/4 plywood that was on sale for $23 a sheet. I was building a
rolling lumber rack. The cheap stuff was $19 a sheet, and was junk.
The $23 was as good as AB ply gets. I felt bad using it on a base for a
lumber rack...

You can buy unbelievably good Oak lumber at my HD and it is perfect.
The price is stupid though, but Festools would work well on it.
Construction lumber is good, I've bought lots of it at my HD and it was
fine. Biggest problem I found is pricing. Often, it makes no sense,
like a 10' 2x6 costing less than an 8' 2x6.

I'm sure it depends on lots of stuff what the quality is like, but it is
as good as any general contractors lumber yard I've been. If you are
looking for walnut to build a fine dining room table, you are at the
wrong place.

--
Jack
Got Change: Democratic Republic ====== Banana Republic!
http://jbstein.com

Winston wrote:
On 4/29/2010 7:22 AM, Jack Stein wrote:

Having said that, "straight" on a bs is seldom
parallel to the blade. Eventually, or always, a particular blade will
require cutting "straight" at an angle.

This makes the miter fence useless and the rip fence moderately so.

Pretty much. I don't recall ever using a miter fence on the BS, and
generally I only use a rip fence if I have the table tilted at 45°. For
resawing, a rip fence can be used, but must be set at the cutting angle
of the particular saw blade in use, or just a point at the blade like
this fence:

(http://images.meredith.com/wood/images/p_374_1_1.gif).

For cutting a lap joint on the end of a 2x I would use no fence on the
band saw. Fences and miter gages are more of a tool for the table saw.
Draw lines on the wood, and cut along them, free hand.

I don't know enough about the physics to explain it efficiently.
Perhaps the blade guides in my saw need to be ground or replaced.

I think the guides are mainly for cutting arcs, not so much straight lines.

I can visualize how the set screw could indent each mushy guide,
preventing a worn guide from getting close enough to the side of
the blade. That would do it for sure!

Those guides pretty much keep the blade from twisting when cutting an
arc. Theoretically, when cutting a straight line, the guides should not
come into play at all.

Having said that, I had a horizontal / vertical band saw that used
the outside of ball bearing races as lateral blade guides.
I could snug those guides tight enough to cause them to emit
ugly noises and the darned saw still wouldn't cut truly straight.
I never understood the reason.

Again, if you lose the fence, or, adjust the fence so it cuts at the
correct angle for that blade, then you will cut straight enough for a
bandsaw. Truly straight is more of a job for the table saw.

I bought a Makita 'dry saw' for ferrous metal a few years ago.
*That thing* cuts *straight* and *fast*! (Nice miters, too).
It is a beautiful machine.

I've used *good* band saws that do cut straight. This ain't one of them.
Of course it didn't cost like a real band saw does either.

Yes, there is cheap, there is good, and there is industrial. My saw is
cheap compared to industrial, and good compared to cheap:-) My guess is
none of them really cut "straight" other than saw mills and stuff like
that. Saw mills don't cut arcs very well either:-)

I still think the main differences other than obvious stuff like depth
of cut and power is in ease of set up and maintaining set up. For
example, I can adjust my blade guide height while the saw is running,
you can't do that on all saws. At any rate, cutting straight I think is
more in technique and blade choice, but I've been wrong before...

That is though provoking. I will have to check those guides.

Thought provoking? That's the nicest thing anyone ever said about me,
really. Thanks for that, it is 60% of my intent:-)

You got me there. I'm an electronics tech with *no* wood working skill
so I bumble along as well as I can with the generous advice from folks
who are in the know.

I hear ya. Around here, advice comes from everybody. Take it all,
including mine, with a grain of salt.

I've been told that regular doug fir 4x4s are perfectly fine for fence
posts, yet I always replace them with PT because of the astounding rate
at which the 'professionally installed' posts rot away.

PT wood is required if underground and not in a desert. As long as the
wood can air dry reasonably well, rot should not be a big issue. The
only untreated wood I've heard of good for fence posts is Locust. PT is
much easier to find:-)

--
Jack
News Flash: Government Motors (GM) fines their top competitor $16 Mil.
http://jbstein.com

Jack Stein wrote in
:

*snip*

Also, I have not a clue what "white wood" might be?


White wood is just a generic 2x. It's usually spruce, pine, or fir, and
sometimes it's called SPF or white wood.

Puckdropper
--
Never teach your apprentice everything you know.

On 5/1/2010 6:38 AM, Jack Stein wrote:
Winston wrote:
On 4/29/2010 7:22 AM, Jack Stein wrote:

Having said that, "straight" on a bs is seldom
parallel to the blade. Eventually, or always, a particular blade will
require cutting "straight" at an angle.

This makes the miter fence useless and the rip fence moderately so.

Pretty much. I don't recall ever using a miter fence on the BS, and
generally I only use a rip fence if I have the table tilted at 45°. For
resawing, a rip fence can be used, but must be set at the cutting angle
of the particular saw blade in use, or just a point at the blade like
this fence:

(http://images.meredith.com/wood/images/p_374_1_1.gif).

For cutting a lap joint on the end of a 2x I would use no fence on the
band saw. Fences and miter gages are more of a tool for the table saw.
Draw lines on the wood, and cut along them, free hand.

I tried that yesterday morning. It produced the quickest, quietest step
feature in the end of the 2x4.

However! I checked the thickness of the resulting step and it was
all over the map. Worst case variation was like -0.1"!!
Part of that has to be the extremely rough texture of the board,
I assume. I gave up and bought a mucho macho plunge router to
perform both the roughing and final depth finishing.

I don't know enough about the physics to explain it efficiently.
Perhaps the blade guides in my saw need to be ground or replaced.

I think the guides are mainly for cutting arcs, not so much straight lines.

I use the Whimpy Wobbly 1/4" blades.

I can visualize how the set screw could indent each mushy guide,
preventing a worn guide from getting close enough to the side of
the blade. That would do it for sure!

Those guides pretty much keep the blade from twisting when cutting an
arc. Theoretically, when cutting a straight line, the guides should not
come into play at all.

Having said that, I had a horizontal / vertical band saw that used
the outside of ball bearing races as lateral blade guides.
I could snug those guides tight enough to cause them to emit
ugly noises and the darned saw still wouldn't cut truly straight.
I never understood the reason.

Again, if you lose the fence, or, adjust the fence so it cuts at the
correct angle for that blade, then you will cut straight enough for a
bandsaw. Truly straight is more of a job for the table saw.

I bought a Makita 'dry saw' for ferrous metal a few years ago.
*That thing* cuts *straight* and *fast*! (Nice miters, too).
It is a beautiful machine.

I've used *good* band saws that do cut straight. This ain't one of
them.
Of course it didn't cost like a real band saw does either.

Yes, there is cheap, there is good, and there is industrial. My saw is
cheap compared to industrial, and good compared to cheap:-) My guess is
none of them really cut "straight" other than saw mills and stuff like
that. Saw mills don't cut arcs very well either:-)

Heh!

I still think the main differences other than obvious stuff like depth
of cut and power is in ease of set up and maintaining set up. For
example, I can adjust my blade guide height while the saw is running,
you can't do that on all saws. At any rate, cutting straight I think is
more in technique and blade choice, but I've been wrong before...

That is though provoking. I will have to check those guides.

Thought provoking? That's the nicest thing anyone ever said about me,
really. Thanks for that, it is 60% of my intent:-)

You got me there. I'm an electronics tech with *no* wood working skill
so I bumble along as well as I can with the generous advice from folks
who are in the know.

I hear ya. Around here, advice comes from everybody. Take it all,
including mine, with a grain of salt.

Heh!


I've been told that regular doug fir 4x4s are perfectly fine for fence
posts, yet I always replace them with PT because of the astounding rate
at which the 'professionally installed' posts rot away.

PT wood is required if underground and not in a desert. As long as the
wood can air dry reasonably well, rot should not be a big issue. The
only untreated wood I've heard of good for fence posts is Locust. PT is
much easier to find:-)

Thanks!

--Winston

On 4/30/2010 9:01 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Thu, 29 Apr 2010 20:51:36 -0700, the infamous Winston
scrawled the following:

(...)

'Khaki - in - a - can'? I will look for it.

More like "Hershey-squirt khaki", innit?

Dark chocolate, not milk chocolate.

I've heard of them, believe it or not.

Yup. Originally thought of them because I used to work with
one of the owner's sons who is an EE. (So's the other one.)


Didn't we warn you about doing that "thinking" thing?tsk tsk tsk

Tis sad.

I've recently found out that our local hardware stores are priced
better than the electrical, plumbing, and fastener sections of HD, so
the new store in Phoenix (no, down the street here in Oregon, silly)
isn't a real draw to me any more.

Sometimes the longer drive is well worth it.

--Winston

On 4/30/2010 9:04 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:

Oops, the F is missing there. But they're down for maintenance mode
since their shopping cart is passing out everyone else's info right
now. Oops. I checked yesterday and couldn't find their ends, so they
probably discontinued them. I should have bought some when I had the
chance. American made stainless fixtures are 10x the cost.

I'm gonna go with the glued and screwed lap joints.

(Mind out of the gutter, Larry)

If the gates start sagging, I'll string them up with the cheapo
deluxe cable thingy you mentioned earlier.

--Winston

On 5/1/2010 5:54 AM, Jack Stein wrote:
Larry Jaques wrote:

Yeah, and pick up some of HD's spray-on "Pressure Treated Look" to
make it blend in with the sprayed lumber.

I've bought PT lumber at HD and it was fine, and the treatment went all
the way through as shown in the pictures I posted.

I'm beginning to think that HD managers are given a *lot*
of autonomy or that their suppliers provide *highly* variable
product quality and pricing.

I must ponder.

Ponder why you went to HD for lumber, too, while you're at it.
titter

About every lumber yard within reach has disappeared from my area.I buy
lumber at HD and have been mostly happy with it. I recently bought some
3/4 plywood that was on sale for $23 a sheet. I was building a rolling
lumber rack. The cheap stuff was $19 a sheet, and was junk. The $23 was
as good as AB ply gets. I felt bad using it on a base for a lumber rack...

You can buy unbelievably good Oak lumber at my HD and it is perfect. The
price is stupid though, but Festools would work well on it. Construction
lumber is good, I've bought lots of it at my HD and it was fine. Biggest
problem I found is pricing. Often, it makes no sense, like a 10' 2x6
costing less than an 8' 2x6.

I'm sure it depends on lots of stuff what the quality is like, but it is
as good as any general contractors lumber yard I've been. If you are
looking for walnut to build a fine dining room table, you are at the
wrong place.

There are compensations to HD.

I needed some cheap scrap to make a 'story plank' for routing.
They wanted ~$18 for MDF off the rack.
Found a couple 8' long pieces of MDF in the scrap pile near the sheet saw
in the back. Flagged down a sales guy who sprayed it for me.

Cost: $1.00 each. That is more like it!

--Winston

On 4/30/2010 8:57 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Thu, 29 Apr 2010 20:43:54 -0700, the infamous Winston
scrawled the following:

On 4/29/2010 7:12 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:

(...)

Ten bucks a gate, + s/h. http://fwd4.me/DXc I've done half a dozen
this way and it really is nice, Winnie.


Say! That is way better than 80+ smackolas per side.
Thanks, Larry!

And it readjusts in 30 seconds every other season, no tools involved
(-if- you greased the turnbuckle.)

Splendid.

--Winston

"Winston" wrote

There are compensations to HD.

I needed some cheap scrap to make a 'story plank' for routing.
They wanted ~$18 for MDF off the rack.
Found a couple 8' long pieces of MDF in the scrap pile near the sheet saw
in the back. Flagged down a sales guy who sprayed it for me.

Cost: $1.00 each. That is more like it!

I used to buy stuff out of their scrap bin all the time. But they stopped
that and will no longer offer scrap. In fact they have big signs up all
over the back of the store that scrap is not for sale. Something must have
happened to create that policy.