On Aug 24, 3:17*am, "Lew Hodgett" wrote:

...
As the crew started to work that concrete, I was impressed by how
little I really knew about how to lay concrete.

I was also very grateful I had hired somebody who knew what they were
doing.

I decided then and there to add concrete laying to the jobs I hire
out, the others being car repair and brain surgery.

That was 40 years ago.

If I had tried to lay that concrete, it still would not be done.

Lew

I had been thinking I might exchange deckblocks for a concrete pad
under my shed (and if that goes well, maybe someday a foundation for a
whole detached shop). I had also been thinking I'd do it myself. You
didn't tell us what sort of details you would have missed that the
contractors didn't. What's so important that isn't obvious (to me)?

- Owen -

"manyirons" wrote in message
...

I had been thinking I might exchange deckblocks for a concrete pad
under my shed (and if that goes well, maybe someday a foundation for a
whole detached shop). I had also been thinking I'd do it myself. You
didn't tell us what sort of details you would have missed that the
contractors didn't. What's so important that isn't obvious (to me)?

- Owen -


Please don't take this the wrong way but have you heard, I don't know
enough to know what I don't know?

Would you consider putting a vapor barrier down under the slab? Do you plan
on mixing all of the concrete yourself? What strength concrete will you be
using? What thickness? Will you have footings? What kind of reinforcemet
will you be using? What kind of soil will you be pouring on top of? That
is a "start"

On Aug 23, 10:23*pm, Metspitzer wrote:
On Sun, 23 Aug 2009 16:03:21 -0500, Red Green
wrote:





David Nebenzahl wrote in
rs.com:

Well, I don't personally hate him. Don't even know the guy.

But that's the title of the latest piece by one of my favorite
columnists in the /Berkeley Daily Planet/, Matt Cantor, local owner of
a home-inspection business who writes a weekly column on home repair
and maintenance.

Here's a sample:

* *I do genuinely hate these specific shows: "Hometime," "This Old
* *House" and "The New Yankee Workshop." I hate them for one simple
* *reason: they make most people feel like idiots. Even if a show only
* *demonstrates how to build a basic chest of drawers, it does a lousy
* *job of preparing the average Joe or Joan for the task. In the end,
* *the show provides nothing more than boutique shopping and showing
* *off. I suppose that would be a lot of fun if you only want to learn
* *that you—as a homeowner or stock broker or bank clerk—know nothing
* *about houses or furniture or nails and that you’ll never stand a
* *chance of doing more than hanging a picture on the wall.

* *On shows like these, the jobs are made to look so darned easy. All
* *the materials are waiting for assembly and nothing is spoiled, the
* *wrong type or missing. The air gun never misfires and the
* *compressor never needs to be drained (yes, you have to drain
* *compressors daily because they fill up with water and will rust out
* *if you don’t do so). That’s another thing I hate: in actuality,
* *there are many small details that fill a contractor’s day (or your
* *day when you play contractor) but they’re neatly edited out, just
* *as they are in a cooking show. Just pop the raw one in the oven and
* *Voila, the new freshly baked one comes right out of the other oven.

(See article at
http://berkeleydailyplanet.com/issue.../article/33531)

So many of my thought he printed.

They do need a reality show along those lines! The one where the victim,
aka DIY'r, turns the wrench to losen the whatever and every pipe
connected to it twists like a transmission tower that Godzilla blew his *
big bad Habanero breath on.

I hope the DIY's come out on the Internet. *I have already seen some
pretty useful ones.

What I really want to see is something you have to bring home and
assemble that comes with a link where you can watch the assembly of
the exact product on the Internet.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Yes and one that honestly says "If piece A does not fit easily into
the slot of bracket B, use a piece of sandpaper and/or a small rasp/
file and rub down the rough edges of A so it will fit.
DO NOT enlarge slot. I needing to tap A into place use something soft
before 'Gently' tapping A into place with hammer or similar tool. Use
enclosed Allen wrench to tighten patent fasteners nuts.

Definitions:
a) Sandpaper (Heavy paper coated with glued abrasive such as sand).
b) Hammer (Nailing tool with metal 'head' and wooden of fibreglass
handle).
c)Rasp/file. Household abrasive tool (See larger version of nail file
etc.).
d) Allen wrench (Hexagonal 'six sided' small tool to fit indentation
in head of patent fasteners).


But number of times have been asked to assist people assemble some
items, who don't even have a hammer or screwdriver in the house! So
one ends up using a dinner knife to take out a screw or going home to
get one's own tools!

One time, some 50+ years ago, though I was 'thrown for loop' when a
senior gentleman kept asking me for a 'Turn screw' (Old Irish I think,
i.e. Screwdriver.) Come to think of it that makes more sense than the
word 'screwdriver'. Cos you turn a screw whether you are putting it in
or taking it out!

Agree Norm Abrams time 30 minutes. Mine two weeks plus, plus, in
between fixing the house, doing chores, visiting family, servicing
motor vehicle etc. etc. Must go round and check trees for damage and
if any water came through basement windows during last night's storm
(Tropical storm/hurricane 'Bill') which quickly passed over here last
night. Power, TV and phone survived but only thing had to reset this
morning was the microwave!

"stan" wrote

But number of times have been asked to assist people assemble some
items, who don't even have a hammer or screwdriver in the house! So
one ends up using a dinner knife to take out a screw or going home to
get one's own tools!
==================

Yep, I was part of a business startup once. A bunch of guys in newly rented
offices. And I brought some tools in a crate in case they were needed. I
suddenly became the local tool store and general fix it wizard. My
qualifications?? I actually owned some tools and brought them to work! It
was a constant battle to get the tools back. Everyone wanted to use the
tools, but nobody wanted to give them back.

When I first left home and was working a a minimum wage job a a dishwasher,
I saved my pennies and bought tools from the local hardware store. Later,
when building rustic furniture with few tools, I would do jobs just to buy
tools. I knew tools were important. It is amazing the number of folks who
don't know this. I have helped a number of folks buy some basic tools for
the house/apartment. They did not know what to buy or where to buy it.

"manyirons" wrote:
-------------------------------------------------
You
didn't tell us what sort of details you would have missed that the
contractors didn't. What's so important that isn't obvious (to me)?
------------------------------------------------------

Remember, "A picture is worth a thousand words"?

Go watch concrete being laid.

Lew

On Sun, 23 Aug 2009 21:22:35 -0700, DGDevin wrote:

Many of us could handle framing or drywall or painting but would think
twice about trying serious plumbing or wiring.

At my age, wire and pipe weigh a lot less than drywall :-).

--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

Larry Blanchard wrote:

On Sun, 23 Aug 2009 21:22:35 -0700, DGDevin wrote:

Many of us could handle framing or drywall or painting but would
think twice about trying serious plumbing or wiring.

At my age, wire and pipe weigh a lot less than drywall :-).

It isn't the weight that gets me, it's the knowledge that I'm probably
capable of connecting the household power grid to the plumbing. Bookcases
and umbrella stands and wine bottle racks--no problem. Plumbing and
electrical--I'll leave that stuff to the pros. ;~)

On 2009-08-24, Lew Hodgett wrote:
Remember, "A picture is worth a thousand words"?

Go watch concrete being laid.

What if the contractor is a hack?

When I built swimming pools (gunite crew), I watched many a deck being
laid. Fully half had to be torn out (that's also me on the 90lb jack)
and redone cuz the contractor and his crew were either drunk or
incompetent. The only thing I learned about laying concrete from that
dolt was, do it right the first time. (I learned it, he didn't)

nb

DGDevin wrote:

Many of us could handle framing or drywall or painting but
would think twice about trying serious plumbing or wiring.

I would much rather do framing, plumbing and wiring than drywall or
painting. I'm certainly qualified and capable of all of those tasks,
however drywall is bloody heavy and tedious to tape well, and painting
is equally tedious.

Pete C. wrote:
DGDevin wrote:
Many of us could handle framing or drywall or painting but
would think twice about trying serious plumbing or wiring.

I would much rather do framing, plumbing and wiring than drywall or
painting. I'm certainly qualified and capable of all of those tasks,
however drywall is bloody heavy and tedious to tape well, and painting
is equally tedious.


A good, detail oriented framer can make a 'waller's job much easier.
Like anyone else, you have to deal with what you were left.

But I never attempt drywall. It's easy to do a half-a$$ jog of it, even
for a so-called pro. Doing a great job at finishing that stuff is a
skill and an art that is maintained by doing it repetitively and taking
pride in your work. I think *anyone* can get great at it, given a few
weeks on the job, but I'll gladly pay the experts to do it.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

-MIKE- wrote:
Pete C. wrote:
DGDevin wrote:
Many of us could handle framing or drywall or painting but
would think twice about trying serious plumbing or wiring.

I would much rather do framing, plumbing and wiring than drywall or
painting. I'm certainly qualified and capable of all of those tasks,
however drywall is bloody heavy and tedious to tape well, and painting
is equally tedious.


A good, detail oriented framer can make a 'waller's job much easier.
Like anyone else, you have to deal with what you were left.

But I never attempt drywall. It's easy to do a half-a$$ jog of it, even
for a so-called pro. Doing a great job at finishing that stuff is a
skill and an art that is maintained by doing it repetitively and taking
pride in your work. I think *anyone* can get great at it, given a few
weeks on the job, but I'll gladly pay the experts to do it.

Amen, the only drywall I have ever done was approximately an 8' by 8' wall,
i.e. two sheets. I futzed over it for days even when i knew it was going to
be mostly covered by kitchen cabinets and a tile backsplash.

But it will look good, if someone ever takes the cabinets down.
;-)

--
Froz...

"-MIKE-" wrote in message
...
Pete C. wrote:
DGDevin wrote:
Many of us could handle framing or drywall or painting but
would think twice about trying serious plumbing or wiring.

I would much rather do framing, plumbing and wiring than drywall or
painting. I'm certainly qualified and capable of all of those tasks,
however drywall is bloody heavy and tedious to tape well, and painting
is equally tedious.


A good, detail oriented framer can make a 'waller's job much easier.
Like anyone else, you have to deal with what you were left.

But I never attempt drywall. It's easy to do a half-a$$ jog of it, even
for a so-called pro. Doing a great job at finishing that stuff is a
skill and an art that is maintained by doing it repetitively and taking
pride in your work. I think *anyone* can get great at it, given a few
weeks on the job, but I'll gladly pay the experts to do it.


--

-MIKE-

It takes more than a few weeks to get good at taping or even hanging it for
that matter...I've been at it for 20 years and I still lean something new
all the time...New and better products , tools , methods , ect....It takes a
while to learn how to walk on stilts , using the ALL the different tools and
be comfortable on staging then it's closet time for a while and
understanding all the different kinds of mud , drywall , screws , beads ,
trim and where they go and installing them , setting up , getting coffee and
making material runs ect..It is a year or so before a rookie is finish
taping (just garages and utility rooms and bedrooms , ect.) and even then he
won't know all the speciality jobs....There is ALOT more to drywall than
taping your little 8X8 bathroom.....For starters doing a "typical" drywall
job requires the right tools...I carry over a 1000 dollars worth of hanging
and taping hand tools including my stilts 1/2 inch drill , screwgun ,
Drywall Cut Out Router , ect , ect.......Not to mention the baker staging ,
pipe staging , platforms and wheels , step and extension ladders , alluminum
extension planks , ect. , ect.....A homeowner will try to get by with a
mudpan , 6 inch knife and a 12 inch knife for taping and his cordless driver
and keyhole saw for hanging while trying to do it off a ladder instead of
stilts or staging...You are at a huge disadvantage right out of the gate and
no matter how good you think it looks it will still pale in comparison to a
pro...Strange how sometimes the difference between a homeowners good job and
my work is so very different...Sometimes I go to jobs and the homeowner will
say " look at this , I taped this wall , looks good , huh ??" I always smile
and say yup , not bad all the while LMAO inside...And the stories I could
tell about going to jobs that homeowners try to start...ROFLMAO...I'm always
polite though , and say , well atleast you tried....Then proceed to cut out
the loose tape and put an 80 grit pad on the powersander and take it all off
and start over...If the drtwall looks like crap , especially the ceilings ,
no matter how pretty the woodwork looks the room will still look cheesy and
cheap...The thing that shows the most seems to be the thing that always gets
cheaped out....LOL...

"Pete C." wrote in message
ster.com...

DGDevin wrote:

Many of us could handle framing or drywall or painting but
would think twice about trying serious plumbing or wiring.

I would much rather do framing, plumbing and wiring than drywall or
painting. I'm certainly qualified and capable of all of those tasks,
however drywall is bloody heavy and tedious to tape well, and painting
is equally tedious.


Dang Devin, sanding and applying a finish to a new piece of furniture is
tedious as well, not so much once you get the hang if it.

Has the term inspiration become obsolete? After reading the message I
think I know what direction I would not look for any. What does Cantor
expect? Watch a half hour program and the viewer will have the ability
to build anything?

These shows simply demonstrate what can be done if a person is willing
to apply themselves.

I don't mind giving Norm and all the others some of the credit for
inspiring me. I've watched many of those programs over the last three
or four decades and have learned a lot from them.

I started small years ago building furniture, a rec room and various
DIY projects, and ended up designing and building the house I live in
today.

When I say build I mean I did the building. I hired a contractor to do
the foundation. I did most of the rest of the work with help from
friends and family.

I'm presently building kitchen cupboards, much the same as I saw Norm
building cupboards on his show. I'll post a few photos of the house
and some utility room cupboards I built for practice on
alt.binaries.pictures.woodworking

As for Mr Cantor, I'd give him the credit for having the ability to
discourage someone from ever starting because it will be too hard.

Out of curiosity, has Cantor ever built anything or is he just an
inspector?

By the way, I worked all my adult live as a Technician and didn't know
the first thing about hanging a picture frame when I started. I
learned from my mistakes and kept at it. If Norm can do it so can I.

LdB



David Nebenzahl wrote


Well, I don't personally hate him. Don't even know the guy.

But that's the title of the latest piece by one of my favorite
columnists in the /Berkeley Daily Planet/, Matt Cantor, local owner of a
home-inspection business who writes a weekly column on home repair and
maintenance.

Here's a sample:

I do genuinely hate these specific shows: "Hometime," "This Old House"
and "The New Yankee Workshop." I hate them for one simple reason: they
make most people feel like idiots. Even if a show only demonstrates how
to build a basic chest of drawers, it does a lousy job of preparing the
average Joe or Joan for the task. In the end, the show provides nothing
more than boutique shopping and showing off. I suppose that would be a
lot of fun if you only want to learn that you—as a homeowner or stock
broker or bank clerk—know nothing about houses or furniture or nails and
that you’ll never stand a chance of doing more than hanging a picture on
the wall.

On shows like these, the jobs are made to look so darned easy. All the
materials are waiting for assembly and nothing is spoiled, the wrong
type or missing. The air gun never misfires and the compressor never
needs to be drained (yes, you have to drain compressors daily because
they fill up with water and will rust out if you don’t do so). That’s
another thing I hate: in actuality, there are many small details that
fill a contractor’s day (or your day when you play contractor) but
they’re neatly edited out, just as they are in a cooking show. Just pop
the raw one in the oven and Voila, the new freshly baked one comes right
out of the other oven.

(See article at
http://berkeleydailyplanet.com/issue.../article/33531)

benick wrote:

It takes more than a few weeks to get good at taping or even hanging it
for that matter...I've been at it for 20 years and I still lean
something new all the time...New and better products , tools , methods ,
ect....It takes a while to learn how to walk on stilts , using the ALL
the different tools and be comfortable on staging then it's closet time
for a while and understanding all the different kinds of mud , drywall ,
screws , beads , trim and where they go and installing them , setting up
, getting coffee and making material runs ect..It is a year or so before
a rookie is finish taping (just garages and utility rooms and bedrooms ,
ect.) and even then he won't know all the speciality jobs....There is
ALOT more to drywall than taping your little 8X8 bathroom.....For
starters doing a "typical" drywall job requires the right tools...I
carry over a 1000 dollars worth of hanging and taping hand tools
including my stilts 1/2 inch drill , screwgun , Drywall Cut Out Router ,
ect , ect.......Not to mention the baker staging , pipe staging ,
platforms and wheels , step and extension ladders , alluminum extension
planks , ect. , ect.....A homeowner will try to get by with a mudpan , 6
inch knife and a 12 inch knife for taping and his cordless driver and
keyhole saw for hanging while trying to do it off a ladder instead of
stilts or staging...You are at a huge disadvantage right out of the gate
and no matter how good you think it looks it will still pale in
comparison to a pro...Strange how sometimes the difference between a
homeowners good job and my work is so very different...Sometimes I go to
jobs and the homeowner will say " look at this , I taped this wall ,
looks good , huh ??" I always smile and say yup , not bad all the while
LMAO inside...And the stories I could tell about going to jobs that
homeowners try to start...ROFLMAO...I'm always polite though , and say ,
well atleast you tried....Then proceed to cut out the loose tape and put
an 80 grit pad on the powersander and take it all off and start
over...If the drtwall looks like crap , especially the ceilings , no
matter how pretty the woodwork looks the room will still look cheesy and
cheap...The thing that shows the most seems to be the thing that always
gets cheaped out....LOL...


When I built my first house, I subbed out the drywall and always use the
excuse, "Because I want to sell the place."


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

John Grossbohlin wrote:

"Red Green" wrote in message
...
David Nebenzahl wrote in
s.com:


They do need a reality show along those lines! The one where the victim,
aka DIY'r, turns the wrench to losen the whatever and every pipe
connected to it twists like a transmission tower that Godzilla blew his
big bad Habanero breath on.

They already have it... Renovation Realities on HGTV. I thought I'd see
or heard about every wrong way there was to do things until I saw this
show! The failings of man are clearly unlimited! LOL

Yeah, I agree. My question is, how did anyone know these people were
going to be so completely inept, to the point that they thought to set
up a camera to film it all? It is, like so many other so-called
"reality" shows, entirely staged stupidity.

On 8/23/2009 1:25 PM David Nebenzahl spake thus:

[yes, it's Abram, not Abrams. Apparently they didn't name the tank after
him.]

Well, I don't personally hate him. Don't even know the guy.

But that's the title of the latest piece by one of my favorite
columnists in the /Berkeley Daily Planet/, Matt Cantor, local owner of a
home-inspection business who writes a weekly column on home repair and
maintenance.

Here's a sample:

I do genuinely hate these specific shows: "Hometime," "This Old House"
and "The New Yankee Workshop." I hate them for one simple reason: they
make most people feel like idiots.

Heh; got some junk mail from /Popular Woodworking/ today (don't think
I'll subscribe, as I got spoiled from reading /Fine Woodworking/). The
pitch features the cover from their August 2005 issue, with a photo of
Norm in his shop. The article title is "In the Shop with Norm Abram: We
Debunk 7 Myths About TV's Frugal Yankee".

Wonder what the myths are. Anyone have this issue lying around?


--
Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism

"-MIKE-" wrote in message
...
benick wrote:

It takes more than a few weeks to get good at taping or even hanging it
for that matter...I've been at it for 20 years and I still lean something
new all the time...New and better products , tools , methods , ect....It
takes a while to learn how to walk on stilts , using the ALL the
different tools and be comfortable on staging then it's closet time for a
while and understanding all the different kinds of mud , drywall , screws
, beads , trim and where they go and installing them , setting up ,
getting coffee and making material runs ect..It is a year or so before a
rookie is finish taping (just garages and utility rooms and bedrooms ,
ect.) and even then he won't know all the speciality jobs....There is
ALOT more to drywall than taping your little 8X8 bathroom.....For
starters doing a "typical" drywall job requires the right tools...I carry
over a 1000 dollars worth of hanging and taping hand tools including my
stilts 1/2 inch drill , screwgun , Drywall Cut Out Router , ect ,
ect.......Not to mention the baker staging , pipe staging , platforms and
wheels , step and extension ladders , alluminum extension planks , ect. ,
ect.....A homeowner will try to get by with a mudpan , 6 inch knife and a
12 inch knife for taping and his cordless driver and keyhole saw for
hanging while trying to do it off a ladder instead of stilts or
staging...You are at a huge disadvantage right out of the gate and no
matter how good you think it looks it will still pale in comparison to a
pro...Strange how sometimes the difference between a homeowners good job
and my work is so very different...Sometimes I go to jobs and the
homeowner will say " look at this , I taped this wall , looks good , huh
??" I always smile and say yup , not bad all the while LMAO inside...And
the stories I could tell about going to jobs that homeowners try to
start...ROFLMAO...I'm always polite though , and say , well atleast you
tried....Then proceed to cut out the loose tape and put an 80 grit pad on
the powersander and take it all off and start over...If the drtwall looks
like crap , especially the ceilings , no matter how pretty the woodwork
looks the room will still look cheesy and cheap...The thing that shows
the most seems to be the thing that always gets cheaped out....LOL...


When I built my first house, I subbed out the drywall and always use the
excuse, "Because I want to sell the place."


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

Smart move...There ain't no hiding a bad drywall job...It is right out there
in plain view and the first thing seen....First impressions are
everything.....

benick wrote:
When I built my first house, I subbed out the drywall and always use
the excuse, "Because I want to sell the place."

-MIKE-


Smart move...There ain't no hiding a bad drywall job...It is right out
there in plain view and the first thing seen....First impressions are
everything.....


The reason for hiring it out is what I call the "Benefit: Bull$h!t Ratio."
It's the amount of crap one has to deal with in doing a task himself
compared to the benefit attained from the same.

The B:B ratio is simply to low to be worth it. Like I said before, you
have to do drywall and keep doing it to be good at it. Framing, and most
of the rest, is like riding a bike to me.

I put roofing in the "too low B:B ratio" category, as well, and not
because it takes any real skill. In my experience, roofing is one of the
cheapest things to hire out. Plus they're in and out in a day and I'm
dry. Or I can be up there for a three days in 98 degree heat. Hmmm. :-)



--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

Lee Michaels wrote:
"stan" wrote

But number of times have been asked to assist people assemble some
items, who don't even have a hammer or screwdriver in the house! So
one ends up using a dinner knife to take out a screw or going home to
get one's own tools!
==================

Yep, I was part of a business startup once. A bunch of guys in newly rented
offices. And I brought some tools in a crate in case they were needed. I
suddenly became the local tool store and general fix it wizard. My
qualifications?? I actually owned some tools and brought them to work! It
was a constant battle to get the tools back. Everyone wanted to use the
tools, but nobody wanted to give them back.

Been there done that, lost the screwdriver.

I worked at a computer manufacturer under contract.
I finally put a stop to tool theft by buying each
of the engineers a small tool kit with all the
essentials for servicing 'our' model of computer.

That was the smartest 500 bucks I ever spent because
It stopped the chronic interruptions and freed up
the time I spent looking for tools that had gone
walkabout.

--Winston

-MIKE- wrote:

benick wrote:
When I built my first house, I subbed out the drywall and always use
the excuse, "Because I want to sell the place."

-MIKE-


Smart move...There ain't no hiding a bad drywall job...It is right out
there in plain view and the first thing seen....First impressions are
everything.....

The reason for hiring it out is what I call the "Benefit: Bull$h!t Ratio."
It's the amount of crap one has to deal with in doing a task himself
compared to the benefit attained from the same.

The B:B ratio is simply to low to be worth it. Like I said before, you
have to do drywall and keep doing it to be good at it. Framing, and most
of the rest, is like riding a bike to me.

I put roofing in the "too low B:B ratio" category, as well, and not
because it takes any real skill. In my experience, roofing is one of the
cheapest things to hire out. Plus they're in and out in a day and I'm
dry. Or I can be up there for a three days in 98 degree heat. Hmmm. :-)


Yes, for me, cosmetic items like taping drywall and painting have a poor
B:B ratio since they both require technique that needs constant practice
to get a flawless finish. Framing, wiring and plumbing aren't cosmetic
and require knowledge to do properly, not much in the way of technique
per se.

On 2009-08-25, Winston wrote:
Been there done that, lost the screwdriver.

BTDT, bought the 10 screwdrivers, whatched 8 go missing next day.

Theft of workplace tools is a plague, second only to being ripped-off
by tool vendors. I had a viable plan to stop tool theft in the work
place, but since the US no long has any workplaces.... :|

nb

On Aug 24, 1:49*pm, "Leon" wrote:
"Pete C." wrote in message

ster.com...



DGDevin wrote:

Many of us could handle framing or drywall or painting but
would think twice about trying serious plumbing or wiring.

I would much rather do framing, plumbing and wiring than drywall or
painting. I'm certainly qualified and capable of all of those tasks,
however drywall is bloody heavy and tedious to tape well, and painting
is equally tedious.

Dang Devin, *sanding and applying a finish to a new piece of furniture is
tedious as well, not so much once you get the hang if it.

Paint stripper greatly speeds that process.

Andy

On Aug 24, 7:43*pm, -MIKE- wrote:
The reason for hiring it out is what I call the "Benefit: Bull$h!t Ratio."
It's the amount of crap one has to deal with in doing a task himself
compared to the benefit attained from the same.

The B:B ratio is simply to low to be worth it. Like I said before, you
have to do drywall and keep doing it to be good at it. Framing, and most
of the rest, is like riding a bike to me.

I put roofing in the "too low B:B ratio" category, as well, and not
because it takes any real skill. In my experience, roofing is one of the
cheapest things to hire out. Plus they're in and out in a day and I'm
dry. Or I can be up there for a three days in 98 degree heat. Hmmm. :-)

My view is that I only do the stuff that's fun or that I can't trust
others to do right. The rest, I hire someone. Drywall is no longer
fun. Roofing is for people who don't have vertigo.

Luigi

Luigi Zanasi wrote:
On Aug 24, 7:43 pm, -MIKE- wrote:
The reason for hiring it out is what I call the "Benefit: Bull$h!t Ratio."
It's the amount of crap one has to deal with in doing a task himself
compared to the benefit attained from the same.

The B:B ratio is simply to low to be worth it. Like I said before, you
have to do drywall and keep doing it to be good at it. Framing, and most
of the rest, is like riding a bike to me.

I put roofing in the "too low B:B ratio" category, as well, and not
because it takes any real skill. In my experience, roofing is one of the
cheapest things to hire out. Plus they're in and out in a day and I'm
dry. Or I can be up there for a three days in 98 degree heat. Hmmm. :-)

My view is that I only do the stuff that's fun or that I can't trust
others to do right. The rest, I hire someone. Drywall is no longer
fun. Roofing is for people who don't have vertigo.

Luigi

I have a certain level of respect for roofers, especially here in Texas. Being on the roof
in the hot Texas sun (which I have done) is one of the LAST places I'd want to spend my
every working day.

--
Any given amount of traffic flow, no matter how
sparse, will expand to fill all available lanes.
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

Tim Daneliuk wrote:

Well, in fairness, Berzerkely did give us BSD Unix ... sort of ...
with the help of the best and brightest from the then Bell Labs crowd.
This ultimately gave us TCP/IP and the internet. The irony is that
this was funded by ARPA - the research arm of the Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeevil
government military technocrats. I wonder how many of the smelly
hippies stumbling against the cause of the day realized that their CS
department was building a technology infrastructure designed to be
survivable (by the military) in the face of nuclear exchange.

I used to giggle as I drove past the Berkeley city limits signs that said "A
nuclear free zone." to eat lunch on top of a nuclear reactor. The reactor is
gone now, replaced by the new CS department building.

The giggle on the government is that ARPA funded a network that could survive a
nuclear exchange as well as attempts by any government to control it.

A minor nit pick is that TCP/IP predated BSD Unix by a few years. BSD Unix
certainly helped with TCP/IP domination of computer communication.

-- Doug

Douglas Johnson wrote:
Tim Daneliuk wrote:

Well, in fairness, Berzerkely did give us BSD Unix ... sort of ...
with the help of the best and brightest from the then Bell Labs crowd.
This ultimately gave us TCP/IP and the internet. The irony is that
this was funded by ARPA - the research arm of the Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeevil
government military technocrats. I wonder how many of the smelly
hippies stumbling against the cause of the day realized that their CS
department was building a technology infrastructure designed to be
survivable (by the military) in the face of nuclear exchange.

I used to giggle as I drove past the Berkeley city limits signs that said "A
nuclear free zone." to eat lunch on top of a nuclear reactor. The reactor is
gone now, replaced by the new CS department building.

Gasp! And you survived? You're not deformed for life? How is this
possible? Everyone know that only smelly hippie power is safe ...


The giggle on the government is that ARPA funded a network that could survive a
nuclear exchange as well as attempts by any government to control it.

I dunno about that. I rather think the gummint still has a lot to say
about the top level routers, at least in the U.S., or at least they
*could* in theory. Certainly, both under Dems and Repubs, they've
managed to get data "wiretap" laws installed that allows the gummint
to stick its beak in our digital lives.


A minor nit pick is that TCP/IP predated BSD Unix by a few years. BSD Unix
certainly helped with TCP/IP domination of computer communication.

-- Doug

Hmmm. I took a course in BSD TCP/IP internals from Mike Karels and
Kirk McKusick, both of Berzerkely CSRG fame. Perhaps what Karels did
was a first implementation of TCP/IP on Unix, but I'm pretty sure he
did of TCP/IP "first" of some kind. Nevertheless, your point is
taken...



--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Daneliuk
PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/

Winston wrote:
Lee Michaels wrote:
"stan" wrote

But number of times have been asked to assist people assemble some
items, who don't even have a hammer or screwdriver in the house! So
one ends up using a dinner knife to take out a screw or going home to
get one's own tools!
==================

Yep, I was part of a business startup once. A bunch of guys in newly
rented offices. And I brought some tools in a crate in case they were
needed. I suddenly became the local tool store and general fix it
wizard. My qualifications?? I actually owned some tools and brought
them to work! It was a constant battle to get the tools back.
Everyone wanted to use the tools, but nobody wanted to give them back.

Been there done that, lost the screwdriver.

I worked at a computer manufacturer under contract.
I finally put a stop to tool theft by buying each
of the engineers a small tool kit with all the
essentials for servicing 'our' model of computer.

That was the smartest 500 bucks I ever spent because
It stopped the chronic interruptions and freed up
the time I spent looking for tools that had gone
walkabout.

--Winston

I've probably shared this story on here before- one summer, as a kid, I
was stuck with the duty of being the key-keeper for the tool crib on a
apartment complex construction site. 'Borrowed' tools never seemed to
come back. After about the 3rd time replacing missing shovels, chains,
12-lb sledges, and such, the next time I made a run to the supply house,
I also got a couple cans of dayglo pink spray paint, like they mark pipe
locations with. I put big splashes of pink on all the tools, and the MIA
rate went WAY down. It also made it a lot easier to spot orphan tools
left laying around the site by the casual labor temp crews, most of who
vanished after their first payday.

I may be a lazy slob of questionable ethics, but I always return
borrowed tools, and if I lose it or break it, I replace it. Too bad my
office mates aren't like that. I only take cheap tools in there, to keep
in the briefcase under the cubicle 'desk'.

--
aem sends...

On Tue, 25 Aug 2009 17:57:53 -0400, aemeijers
wrote:

Winston wrote:
Lee Michaels wrote:
"stan" wrote

But number of times have been asked to assist people assemble some
items, who don't even have a hammer or screwdriver in the house! So
one ends up using a dinner knife to take out a screw or going home to
get one's own tools!
==================

Yep, I was part of a business startup once. A bunch of guys in newly
rented offices. And I brought some tools in a crate in case they were
needed. I suddenly became the local tool store and general fix it
wizard. My qualifications?? I actually owned some tools and brought
them to work! It was a constant battle to get the tools back.
Everyone wanted to use the tools, but nobody wanted to give them back.

Been there done that, lost the screwdriver.

I worked at a computer manufacturer under contract.
I finally put a stop to tool theft by buying each
of the engineers a small tool kit with all the
essentials for servicing 'our' model of computer.

That was the smartest 500 bucks I ever spent because
It stopped the chronic interruptions and freed up
the time I spent looking for tools that had gone
walkabout.

--Winston

I've probably shared this story on here before- one summer, as a kid, I
was stuck with the duty of being the key-keeper for the tool crib on a
apartment complex construction site. 'Borrowed' tools never seemed to
come back. After about the 3rd time replacing missing shovels, chains,
12-lb sledges, and such, the next time I made a run to the supply house,
I also got a couple cans of dayglo pink spray paint, like they mark pipe
locations with. I put big splashes of pink on all the tools, and the MIA
rate went WAY down. It also made it a lot easier to spot orphan tools
left laying around the site by the casual labor temp crews, most of who
vanished after their first payday.

I may be a lazy slob of questionable ethics, but I always return
borrowed tools, and if I lose it or break it, I replace it. Too bad my
office mates aren't like that. I only take cheap tools in there, to keep
in the briefcase under the cubicle 'desk'.

I put a circle of red and a circle of green on the handle of my tools.
People on the job got used to seeing those colors, and I would get
tools back from the honest people.

People from other trades even knew who they belonged to.

On Tue, 25 Aug 2009 16:28:32 -0500, Douglas Johnson
wrote:

Tim Daneliuk wrote:

Well, in fairness, Berzerkely did give us BSD Unix ... sort of ...
with the help of the best and brightest from the then Bell Labs crowd.
This ultimately gave us TCP/IP and the internet. The irony is that
this was funded by ARPA - the research arm of the Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeevil
government military technocrats. I wonder how many of the smelly
hippies stumbling against the cause of the day realized that their CS
department was building a technology infrastructure designed to be
survivable (by the military) in the face of nuclear exchange.

I used to giggle as I drove past the Berkeley city limits signs that said "A
nuclear free zone." to eat lunch on top of a nuclear reactor. The reactor is
gone now, replaced by the new CS department building.

The giggle on the government is that ARPA funded a network that could survive a
nuclear exchange as well as attempts by any government to control it.

A minor nit pick is that TCP/IP predated BSD Unix by a few years. BSD Unix
certainly helped with TCP/IP domination of computer communication.

-- Doug

I worked for Watts Bar nuclear plant back in the 80s. A common saying
on the job was........The government pays TVA to build the plant, and
pays the NRC to make sure they can't do it.

Metspitzer wrote:
(snip)

I put a circle of red and a circle of green on the handle of my tools.
People on the job got used to seeing those colors, and I would get
tools back from the honest people.

People from other trades even knew who they belonged to.

Red and Green, huh? Did they cover them with duct tape? :^/

--
aem sends...

On 2009-08-25, Metspitzer wrote:

I worked for Watts Bar nuclear plant back in the 80s. A common saying
on the job was........The government pays TVA to build the plant, and
pays the NRC to make sure they can't do it.

The thing that scared the crap outta me was an episode on 60 Minutes
investigating NRC inspections of powerplant construction, specifically
the containment vessels for the nuclear material, the heart of the
plant. They interviewed more than one inspector who, years after the
fact, admitted to passing sub-standard construction under not so
genteel persuasion by shady unions. The ol' "we know where your
family lives" kinda thing. No telling how many currently operating
plants (do we still have any?) are iffy. A good example of the shaky
nuclear power plant industry in this country is Rancho Seco in N CA.
The China Syndrome was not bogus science fiction.

Funny we should make fun of France, for they have an excellent nuclear
energy record and actually export energy to other countries. "Freedom
Fries", my ass.

nb

On 2009-08-25, Metspitzer wrote:


People on the job got used to seeing those colors, and I would get
tools back from the honest people.

I had a similar system. If I loaned a tool out and didn't get it
back, I'd turn over heaven and earth to hunt 'em down and reclaim it.
If I caught someone absconding with a tool w/o my permission, I read
'em the riot act at full volume in front of the whole production
floor. People soon learned my rollaway was not worth it.

nb

aemeijers wrote:
Winston wrote:
Lee Michaels wrote:
"stan" wrote

But number of times have been asked to assist people assemble some
items, who don't even have a hammer or screwdriver in the house! So
one ends up using a dinner knife to take out a screw or going home
to get one's own tools!
==================



I've probably shared this story on here before- one summer, as a kid,
I was stuck with the duty of being the key-keeper for the tool crib
on a apartment complex construction site. 'Borrowed' tools never
seemed to come back. After about the 3rd time replacing missing
shovels, chains, 12-lb sledges, and such, the next time I made a run
to the supply house, I also got a couple cans of dayglo pink spray
paint, like they mark pipe locations with. I put big splashes of pink
on all the tools, and the MIA rate went WAY down. It also made it a
lot easier to spot orphan tools left laying around the site by the
casual labor temp crews, most of who vanished after their first
payday.
I may be a lazy slob of questionable ethics, but I always return
borrowed tools, and if I lose it or break it, I replace it. Too bad my
office mates aren't like that. I only take cheap tools in there, to
keep in the briefcase under the cubicle 'desk'.

Different context, but one day many moons ago, folk in my office were
horrified when I deliberately use a coin to destroy the paint on a stapler I
had recieved that day. I kept it in use in the office until it broke about
19 years later!

Remember Tippex? I used that to similar good effect.

Metspitzer wrote in
:

On Tue, 25 Aug 2009 17:57:53 -0400, aemeijers
wrote:

Winston wrote:
Lee Michaels wrote:
"stan" wrote

But number of times have been asked to assist people assemble some
items, who don't even have a hammer or screwdriver in the house! So
one ends up using a dinner knife to take out a screw or going home
to get one's own tools!
==================

Yep, I was part of a business startup once. A bunch of guys in
newly rented offices. And I brought some tools in a crate in case
they were needed. I suddenly became the local tool store and
general fix it wizard. My qualifications?? I actually owned some
tools and brought them to work! It was a constant battle to get
the tools back. Everyone wanted to use the tools, but nobody wanted
to give them back.

Been there done that, lost the screwdriver.

I worked at a computer manufacturer under contract.
I finally put a stop to tool theft by buying each
of the engineers a small tool kit with all the
essentials for servicing 'our' model of computer.

That was the smartest 500 bucks I ever spent because
It stopped the chronic interruptions and freed up
the time I spent looking for tools that had gone
walkabout.

--Winston

I've probably shared this story on here before- one summer, as a kid,
I was stuck with the duty of being the key-keeper for the tool crib on
a apartment complex construction site. 'Borrowed' tools never seemed
to come back. After about the 3rd time replacing missing shovels,
chains, 12-lb sledges, and such, the next time I made a run to the
supply house, I also got a couple cans of dayglo pink spray paint,
like they mark pipe locations with. I put big splashes of pink on all
the tools, and the MIA rate went WAY down. It also made it a lot
easier to spot orphan tools left laying around the site by the casual
labor temp crews, most of who vanished after their first payday.

I may be a lazy slob of questionable ethics, but I always return
borrowed tools, and if I lose it or break it, I replace it. Too bad my
office mates aren't like that. I only take cheap tools in there, to
keep in the briefcase under the cubicle 'desk'.

I put a circle of red and a circle of green on the handle of my tools.
People on the job got used to seeing those colors, and I would get
tools back from the honest people.

People from other trades even knew who they belonged to.


COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT! Expect a visit from the Possum Van.

Steve Turner wrote:

Luigi Zanasi wrote:
On Aug 24, 7:43 pm, -MIKE- wrote:
The reason for hiring it out is what I call the "Benefit: Bull$h!t
Ratio." It's the amount of crap one has to deal with in doing a task
himself compared to the benefit attained from the same.

.... snip

I have a certain level of respect for roofers, especially here in Texas.
Being on the roof in the hot Texas sun (which I have done) is one of the
LAST places I'd want to spend my every working day.


The hot tar roofers get my vote. Texas or Arizona. In the middle of
summer.


--

There is never a situation where having more rounds is a disadvantage

Rob Leatham

On Wed, 26 Aug 2009 00:44:48 +0100, "Clot"
wrote:

aemeijers wrote:
Winston wrote:
Lee Michaels wrote:
"stan" wrote

But number of times have been asked to assist people assemble some
items, who don't even have a hammer or screwdriver in the house! So
one ends up using a dinner knife to take out a screw or going home
to get one's own tools!
==================



I've probably shared this story on here before- one summer, as a kid,
I was stuck with the duty of being the key-keeper for the tool crib
on a apartment complex construction site. 'Borrowed' tools never
seemed to come back. After about the 3rd time replacing missing
shovels, chains, 12-lb sledges, and such, the next time I made a run
to the supply house, I also got a couple cans of dayglo pink spray
paint, like they mark pipe locations with. I put big splashes of pink
on all the tools, and the MIA rate went WAY down. It also made it a
lot easier to spot orphan tools left laying around the site by the
casual labor temp crews, most of who vanished after their first
payday.
I may be a lazy slob of questionable ethics, but I always return
borrowed tools, and if I lose it or break it, I replace it. Too bad my
office mates aren't like that. I only take cheap tools in there, to
keep in the briefcase under the cubicle 'desk'.

Different context, but one day many moons ago, folk in my office were
horrified when I deliberately use a coin to destroy the paint on a stapler I
had recieved that day. I kept it in use in the office until it broke about
19 years later!

Remember Tippex? I used that to similar good effect.


I used to send crews to trade shows to man a booth. They had various
forms and cards to be filled out by visitors. Pens disappeared almost
as soon as they were put out. I think it was mostly a case of absent
mindedness. My solution was to have them use stick pens, like the
cheap bics, and put them out without the caps. People were less absent
minded about putting a pen in their pocket or purse if it had no cap.
It worked very well. I've recommended this to chashiers at the grocery
store who have a similar problem losing pens when people sign credit
card slips. They seem to like it, too.

"Mint" wrote in message
...
On Aug 24, 1:49 pm, "Leon" wrote:
"Pete C." wrote in message

ster.com...



DGDevin wrote:

Many of us could handle framing or drywall or painting but
would think twice about trying serious plumbing or wiring.

I would much rather do framing, plumbing and wiring than drywall or
painting. I'm certainly qualified and capable of all of those tasks,
however drywall is bloody heavy and tedious to tape well, and painting
is equally tedious.

Dang Devin, sanding and applying a finish to a new piece of furniture is
tedious as well, not so much once you get the hang if it.

Paint stripper greatly speeds that process.

Andy

Care to explaing how paint stripper speeds painting or applying a finsih on
a new piece of furniture?

Steve Turner wrote:

I have a certain level of respect for roofers, especially here in Texas. Being on the roof
in the hot Texas sun (which I have done) is one of the LAST places I'd want to spend my
every working day.

My line is "Roofing in Texas in August is as close to hell as I ever want to
get." Been there, done that, never again. -- Doug

In article ,
Red Green wrote:


Yea but at least once in a while, ya know..like first Saturday of the
month or something, show a DIY roofer plug a nail into his kneecap. Make
a nice lead-in to removing it on the Operation show..

Right. I'd like to see House and his team work through a complex set of
symptoms and finally come to the conclusion that the patient has a nail
in his kneecap.