Phisherman wrote:

I have eight 4' flourescent fixtures with reflectors. I drilled a
hole every 8" along the edges of the reflectors and fastened hardware
cloth to the reflectors. This prevents a swinging 2x4 from hitting a
tube, yet easy to replace a tube.

Great idea!

I installed electrical outlets on
the ceiling--each oulet has an extra outlet for future units if
needed.

I find the garage door opener outlet on the garage ceiling the most useful
outlet in the building, it's always easy to reach, nothing is ever in the
way, and it's a beefy circuit. I think I'm going to add another one.

wrote:

I've installed 37 4 foot 2 bulb fluorescent fixtures in my basement.

So, are you shooting porn videos or something, perhaps you misunderstood the
sort of "woodworking" being discussed here...

"DGDevin" wrote in message
m...
-MIKE- wrote:

Hoosierpopi wrote:
If they have changed the packaging (they do from time to time to
frustrate such returns), just buy a new one, slip the old one in the
new box and return that one.

They (retailers) know that a significant percentage of this Chinese
stuff newer saw a QC test and count on the customer to accept the
premature failure and buy a new one while calculating a higher
"Returns & Allowances" factor in determining their "Markup." to
account for the high crap rates.


Otherwise known as theft.

Well, returning a product that fails in an unreasonable period of time
(but outside the store's return policy) isn't quite theft. In the case of
something the seller knows is likely to die an early death it's more like
revenge than theft. Maybe revenge isn't all that admirable either, but
neither is selling junk.

Would that be pre-meditated revenge? It still stinks. Do you even bother to
cross your fingers in negation as you sign the PO?

Come to think of it, I don't recall covering ethics in my public school
education. As though that might make a whole lot of difference.

If they have changed the packaging (they do from time to time to
frustrate such returns), just buy a new one, slip the old one in the
new box and return that one.

They (retailers) know that a significant percentage of this Chinese
stuff newer saw a QC test and count on the customer to accept the
premature failure and buy a new one while calculating a higher
"Returns & Allowances" factor in determining their "Markup." to
account for the high crap rates.

Otherwise known as theft.

Well, returning a product that fails in an unreasonable period of time (but
outside the store's return policy) isn't quite theft. In the case of
something the seller knows is likely to die an early death it's more like
revenge than theft. Maybe revenge isn't all that admirable either, but
neither is selling junk.


Rationalize it all you want, it's theft.

Your option is to not buy junk. But that involves being an informed
consumer... which is what is happening in here... in this thread.

In any case, in my experience, Walmart, Lowes, Home Depot will all take
back "a product that fails in an unreasonable period of time (but
outside the store's return policy)."

We have the option of being honest about it, or run the risk of having a
misdemeanor charge on our record. For most people, however, the
misdemeanor never enters into the equation as a deterrent. For most, the
simple fact is the price of their integrity much higher than $8.99.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

-MIKE- wrote:
Hoosierpopi wrote:
If they have changed the packaging (they do from time to time to
frustrate such returns), just buy a new one, slip the old one in
the
new box and return that one.

They (retailers) know that a significant percentage of this Chinese
stuff newer saw a QC test and count on the customer to accept the
premature failure and buy a new one while calculating a higher
"Returns & Allowances" factor in determining their "Markup." to
account for the high crap rates.


Otherwise known as theft.

And it makes problems for other people. I got a backup power supply
once on which some asshole had done that with the battery. Also got a
modem, didn't work, took it back to BestBuy, swapped it out, that one
didn't work, talked to the store manager and ended up going through
five of the things before we found one that worked. And at Harbor
Fright, one time, I got a nail gun that was supposed to come with a
package of nails--no nails--again went through most of the store's
stock before we found one with nails. It amazes me that people will
steal a damn little box of nails.

This is one example of the failure of ethics and enlightened self
interest to adequately replace the fear of an all-knowing and vengeful
God in moderating human behavior.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

J. Clarke wrote:
Otherwise known as theft.

And it makes problems for other people. I got a backup power supply
once on which some asshole had done that with the battery. Also got a
modem, didn't work, took it back to BestBuy, swapped it out, that one
didn't work, talked to the store manager and ended up going through
five of the things before we found one that worked.

Part of the blame is shared by employees who don't listen or just don't
care.

I took back a faulty item to Walmart and told the returns clerk that it
didn't work. She put it in the cart behind the counter. As I walked back
to the aisle to get another, I saw a stock guy bringing the same box I'd
just returned to restock the shelf. I told him that I'd just returned it
because it didn't work properly and he thanked me for telling him and
said, "They [return desk] do that all the time."

That's one reason I never buy a box that's be opened and taped shut.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

-MIKE- wrote:
J. Clarke wrote:
Otherwise known as theft.

And it makes problems for other people. I got a backup power
supply
once on which some asshole had done that with the battery. Also
got
a modem, didn't work, took it back to BestBuy, swapped it out, that
one didn't work, talked to the store manager and ended up going
through five of the things before we found one that worked.

Part of the blame is shared by employees who don't listen or just
don't care.

I took back a faulty item to Walmart and told the returns clerk that
it didn't work. She put it in the cart behind the counter. As I
walked back to the aisle to get another, I saw a stock guy bringing
the same box I'd just returned to restock the shelf. I told him that
I'd just returned it because it didn't work properly and he thanked
me for telling him and said, "They [return desk] do that all the
time."

That's one reason I never buy a box that's be opened and taped shut.

Yep. Trouble is that sometimes it's hard to tell.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Nails ???

Speak to somebody in the power tools
departments of Lowes or Home Depot.

The customers steal on a regular basis:

The knobs that hold the air breather covers
on compressors,power washers,etc.

The air cleaner covers.

The air filters from the above tools.

The tires from lawn mowers.

Any or all the knobs from back pack or hand held
blowers.

Anything that can be removed and easily put
in a pocket.

Imagine going to jail over a $2 air filter.

A friend who is a manager in a Lowes tells me
stories that are beyond belief on theft.




J. Clarke wrote:
It amazes me that people will
steal a damn little box of nails.

I also am in a basement shop with a low drop ceiling, About 7'6".

I have 4 twin tube, 4 ' flourescents hanging between the beams.

True to their nature the light is fairly sterile and evenly dull.

I solved it by looking at where I spent the majority of my tome and I
installed and installed talk lighting in can type fixtures in the ceiling.

I initially used incandescent bulbs but have gone to the high white cf
bulbs. They give the room a bit more "natural" lighting and don't generate
that much heat.



I have
"mac davis" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 11 Jan 2009 18:21:51 -0500, B A R R Y
wrote:

Lee Michaels wrote:

I would reccomend mutiple floursecents. They are cool and cheap. The
more,
the better.

As a fellow basement dweller, I concur.

The big problem with basement is ceiling height. With a low ceiling,
you need far more fixtures per square foot, as the light doesn't get
much chance to spread out.

Sort of a double edge sword though, Barry...
My problem with fluorescent is that if you have high ceilings (mine are
10') the
fluorescents diffuse... probably the wrong word?.. more than
incandescent..

I've dropped some of my T-8 fixtures down a couple of feet and they're
much more
effective..
OTOH, I also have 2 or 3 goose neck lamps with incandescent "true color"
bulbs,
for when I want to see details when sanding and such..


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

-MIKE- wrote:

Rationalize it all you want, it's theft.

If you recover money taken from you under false pretences, are you a thief?

Your option is to not buy junk.

What if you don't know it's junk? What if it's priced, packaged and
promoted as quality goods but is actually junk *and both the mfg. and the
seller know so*--what then? We bought an Onkyo home theater system some
years back, when it began screwing up we went online and discovered other
folks having the same problems, alas we all seemed to discover the situation
at the same time. Onkyo's warranty depots were unable to fix the systems so
they stalled until the warranties ran out, they went right on selling the
same model. At that point it occured to us that the store which put the
system on sale might have done so for a reason--bingo, as one of their staff
confirmed they knew the system was a dud and they wanted to unload them.

No, we didn't steal something from the store in revenge, but needless to say
we'll never buy another Onkyo product. However if there had been a way to
return the system, say by smudging the date on the receipt, I'd sure have
thought about it.

But that involves being an informed
consumer... which is what is happening in here... in this thread.

That assumes it is possible for the consumer to be informed, and that isn't
always the case. The first batch of consumers to discover that a product is
no good serve as a warning for those who come later, but those first folks
still got ripped off.

In any case, in my experience, Walmart, Lowes, Home Depot will all
take back "a product that fails in an unreasonable period of time (but
outside the store's return policy)."

I just went through this with a big electronics chain over some defective
inkjet cartridges. They realized they'd been selling a poorly-made brand of
cartridges so they dropped them because of many returns. But now they won't
accept any more returns on the grounds that they no longer sell that brand.
No, I didn't steal anything there either, but if I could have thought of a
way to return the cartridges without them realizing what I was doing I might
have done so and not lost any sleep over the "theft."

We have the option of being honest about it, or run the risk of
having a misdemeanor charge on our record. For most people, however,
the misdemeanor never enters into the equation as a deterrent. For
most, the simple fact is the price of their integrity much higher
than $8.99.

Very fine speech, when you decide to come down off that horse I think
there's still some beer in the fridge.

BTW, I've only done something like this once. I bought a halogen lamp at
HD, it seemed to work okay so after awhile I got rid of the box and the
receipt, which caused the lamp to immediately die. HD wouldn't take it back
without a receipt of course, so I bought another one, put the defective one
in the new box and returned it with the new receipt (they gave me another
lamp). HD lost nothing, they returned the lamp to the mfg. for credit just
as they would have if I'd kept the first box and receipt. So now I have two
lamps that work, both of which I paid for. If I stole anything I'd like to
know just what that was. These days I keep receipts religiously *and*
original packaging which drives my wife crazy, but it's allowed us to return
some defective items that otherwise wouldn't have been accepted, live and
learn.

DGDevin wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:

Rationalize it all you want, it's theft.

If you recover money taken from you under false pretences, are you a thief?


That's more rationalization.
There are means in place to handle things like that.
You never heard that two wrongs don't make a right.


Your option is to not buy junk.

What if you don't know it's junk? What if it's priced, packaged and
promoted as quality goods but is actually junk *and both the mfg. and the
seller know so*--what then? We bought an Onkyo home theater system some
years back, when it began screwing up we went online and discovered other
folks having the same problems, alas we all seemed to discover the situation
at the same time. Onkyo's warranty depots were unable to fix the systems so
they stalled until the warranties ran out, they went right on selling the
same model. At that point it occured to us that the store which put the
system on sale might have done so for a reason--bingo, as one of their staff
confirmed they knew the system was a dud and they wanted to unload them.


Class actions suit. One of those legal means.


No, we didn't steal something from the store in revenge, but needless to say
we'll never buy another Onkyo product. However if there had been a way to
return the system, say by smudging the date on the receipt, I'd sure have
thought about it.


Then you would've decided your integrity was for sale for the price of a
home theater system.


But that involves being an informed
consumer... which is what is happening in here... in this thread.

That assumes it is possible for the consumer to be informed, and that isn't
always the case. The first batch of consumers to discover that a product is
no good serve as a warning for those who come later, but those first folks
still got ripped off.


Covered above.


In any case, in my experience, Walmart, Lowes, Home Depot will all
take back "a product that fails in an unreasonable period of time (but
outside the store's return policy)."

I just went through this with a big electronics chain over some defective
inkjet cartridges. They realized they'd been selling a poorly-made brand of
cartridges so they dropped them because of many returns. But now they won't
accept any more returns on the grounds that they no longer sell that brand.
No, I didn't steal anything there either, but if I could have thought of a
way to return the cartridges without them realizing what I was doing I might
have done so and not lost any sleep over the "theft."


Then you would've decided your integrity was for sale for the price of
some inkjet cartridges.


We have the option of being honest about it, or run the risk of
having a misdemeanor charge on our record. For most people, however,
the misdemeanor never enters into the equation as a deterrent. For
most, the simple fact is the price of their integrity much higher
than $8.99.

Very fine speech, when you decide to come down off that horse I think
there's still some beer in the fridge.


It's hardly a high horse, and you're embarrassing yourself by saying it
is.
In how deep a hole must one stand in order that seeing petty theft as
wrong, looks like being on a high horse.


BTW, I've only done something like this once.


So have I.
And it was just as wrong as when you did it or when anyone else does it.


I bought a halogen lamp at
HD, it seemed to work okay so after awhile I got rid of the box and the
receipt, which caused the lamp to immediately die. HD wouldn't take it back
without a receipt of course, so I bought another one, put the defective one
in the new box and returned it with the new receipt (they gave me another
lamp). HD lost nothing, they returned the lamp to the mfg. for credit just
as they would have if I'd kept the first box and receipt. So now I have two
lamps that work, both of which I paid for. If I stole anything I'd like to
know just what that was. These days I keep receipts religiously *and*
original packaging which drives my wife crazy, but it's allowed us to return
some defective items that otherwise wouldn't have been accepted, live and
learn.


It's too bad they wouldn't take it back.
The HD's here will put it on a gift card if it's something they still
sell.

But that's still more rationalizing.
If it was after the amount of days stated in their return policy, it was
wrong.
If it was during the manufacturers warranty, you had another recourse.
If you lose the receipt, it's your problem. But you said you learned
that.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

"DGDevin" wrote in message
m...
-MIKE- wrote:

Rationalize it all you want, it's theft.

If you recover money taken from you under false pretences, are you a
thief?

That depends how you do it. OJ, for example, went about it all wrong.

Your option is to not buy junk.

What if you don't know it's junk? What if it's priced, packaged and
....

What if? The original premise was to buy it, use it, burn it out, and swap
it for the same item.

No, we didn't steal something from the store in revenge, but needless to
say

It didn't read that way, Devin. I'm glad you cleared that up.

T8 fluorescents will probably be best. You don't say what type of
conduit would be required. I would expect they would accept MC Cable
which allows a lot of flexibility.

Mike M

On Sun, 11 Jan 2009 14:51:31 -0600, "mark" wrote:

Greetings All,
I have a basement which has just a couple of 48" flourescents right now. I
need to add more lighting and was looking at replacing the flourescents with
something else brighter. Since the machine layout will be in flux for a
while, ceiling cans are out. Besides, my local code requires conduit
everywhere, and I'm not going thru that for ceiling cans. I was at the borg
and picked up a couple of GE 24" halogen fixtures, thnking they would be
nice and bright. I was dead wrong. Dim, compared to my flourescents.
Probably good for a small area at best. The one thing I did like about them
is they are linkable. Any ideas out there? Bright, and linkable would be
good.... TIA, Mark

-MIKE- wrote:
DGDevin wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:

Rationalize it all you want, it's theft.

If you recover money taken from you under false pretences, are you
a
thief?


That's more rationalization.
There are means in place to handle things like that.
You never heard that two wrongs don't make a right.


Your option is to not buy junk.

What if you don't know it's junk? What if it's priced, packaged
and
promoted as quality goods but is actually junk *and both the mfg.
and the seller know so*--what then? We bought an Onkyo home
theater
system some years back, when it began screwing up we went online
and
discovered other folks having the same problems, alas we all seemed
to discover the situation at the same time. Onkyo's warranty
depots
were unable to fix the systems so they stalled until the warranties
ran out, they went right on selling the same model. At that point
it occured to us that the store which put the system on sale might
have done so for a reason--bingo, as one of their staff confirmed
they knew the system was a dud and they wanted to unload them.


Class actions suit. One of those legal means.


No, we didn't steal something from the store in revenge, but
needless to say we'll never buy another Onkyo product. However if
there had been a way to return the system, say by smudging the date
on the receipt, I'd sure have thought about it.


Then you would've decided your integrity was for sale for the price
of a home theater system.


But that involves being an informed
consumer... which is what is happening in here... in this thread.

That assumes it is possible for the consumer to be informed, and
that isn't always the case. The first batch of consumers to
discover that a product is no good serve as a warning for those who
come later, but those first folks still got ripped off.


Covered above.


In any case, in my experience, Walmart, Lowes, Home Depot will all
take back "a product that fails in an unreasonable period of time
(but outside the store's return policy)."

I just went through this with a big electronics chain over some
defective inkjet cartridges. They realized they'd been selling a
poorly-made brand of cartridges so they dropped them because of
many
returns. But now they won't accept any more returns on the grounds
that they no longer sell that brand. No, I didn't steal anything
there either, but if I could have thought of a way to return the
cartridges without them realizing what I was doing I might have
done
so and not lost any sleep over the "theft."


Then you would've decided your integrity was for sale for the price
of
some inkjet cartridges.


We have the option of being honest about it, or run the risk of
having a misdemeanor charge on our record. For most people,
however,
the misdemeanor never enters into the equation as a deterrent. For
most, the simple fact is the price of their integrity much higher
than $8.99.

Very fine speech, when you decide to come down off that horse I
think
there's still some beer in the fridge.


It's hardly a high horse, and you're embarrassing yourself by saying
it is.
In how deep a hole must one stand in order that seeing petty theft
as
wrong, looks like being on a high horse.


BTW, I've only done something like this once.


So have I.
And it was just as wrong as when you did it or when anyone else does
it.


I bought a halogen lamp at
HD, it seemed to work okay so after awhile I got rid of the box and
the receipt, which caused the lamp to immediately die. HD wouldn't
take it back without a receipt of course, so I bought another one,
put the defective one in the new box and returned it with the new
receipt (they gave me another lamp). HD lost nothing, they
returned
the lamp to the mfg. for credit just as they would have if I'd kept
the first box and receipt. So now I have two lamps that work, both
of which I paid for. If I stole anything I'd like to know just
what
that was. These days I keep receipts religiously *and* original
packaging which drives my wife crazy, but it's allowed us to return
some defective items that otherwise wouldn't have been accepted,
live and learn.


It's too bad they wouldn't take it back.
The HD's here will put it on a gift card if it's something they
still
sell.

But that's still more rationalizing.
If it was after the amount of days stated in their return policy, it
was wrong.
If it was during the manufacturers warranty, you had another
recourse.
If you lose the receipt, it's your problem. But you said you
learned
that.

Mike, have you ever started a class action suit? If not, give it a
try and get back to us on how you do with it. You probably won't be
quite so much the self-righteous prick after having that experience.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

J. Clarke wrote:
Mike, have you ever started a class action suit? If not, give it a
try and get back to us on how you do with it. You probably won't be
quite so much the self-righteous prick after having that experience.


Only one of many legal and/or ethical recourses we have in civilized
society.

Sorry you see the need to resort to name calling.
Maybe you missed the part where I said I've done it before and it was wrong.
That sort of rules out, by definition, being self-righteous.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

-MIKE- wrote:

Class actions suit. One of those legal means.

Sure, try to attract landsharks interested in taking the case (unless you're
prepared to foot the bill up front), wait for a few years until the company
and the lawyers settle out of court, the lawyers get $7.5 million in fees,
the claimants get to split a $3.2 million judgement 127,414 ways. My wife
and I collected on such a case recently regarding a financial services
company that misrepresented fees. In our experience nobody should plan on
recovering their actual losses from such a settlement, what you get is what
the lawyers agree to *after* their handsome fees are paid. I've earmarked
some of the money for a plunge/fixed router kit.

Then you would've decided your integrity was for sale for the price
of a home theater system.

In other words in a dispute between an unscrupulous company and victimized
consumers and in which the deck is stacked in favor of the company, you're
with the company.

Then you would've decided your integrity was for sale for the price of
some inkjet cartridges.

In a situation in which a company pulls a Catch 22 to avoid having to honor
their return policy it's interesting that your instinct is to side with the
company.

It's hardly a high horse, and you're embarrassing yourself by saying
it is.
In how deep a hole must one stand in order that seeing petty theft as
wrong, looks like being on a high horse.

I'm fascinated by how you unerringly see returning defective merchandise as
"theft," as if a company that sets up hurdles, pitfalls and dodges to avoid
having to accept returns is not part of the equation. In a previous century
I was a retail manager for quite a few years, very successfully I might add.
I saw just about every sleazy trick a customer can pull including trying to
return items everyone knew they had broken through unreasonable abuse,
trying to return things they'd purchased at other businesses, trying to
return items from which parts had been removed, and so on. Happily I can
say we never sold anything we knew was defective and then refused to accept
returns because we'd dumped all our stock on unsuspecting customers and thus
our usual return policy no longer counted. IMO that's fraud, and suggesting
that anyone who doesn't like it should hire a lawyer is in effect saying
tough luck, shop somewhere else next time. Hire a lawyer over eighty bucks
worth of ink cartridges?

BTW, I've only done something like this once.


So have I.
And it was just as wrong as when you did it or when anyone else does
it.

I bought a lamp that was defective, I returned a defective lamp, the company
didn't lose a dime because the mfg. replaced it for them. Please point to
the "wrong" for me.

It's too bad they wouldn't take it back.
The HD's here will put it on a gift card if it's something they still
sell.

But that's still more rationalizing.
If it was after the amount of days stated in their return policy, it
was wrong.

It wasn't, it was just long enough for me to wonder why I was keeping the
box for a forty-dollar lamp, as soon as the box and receipt were gone the
lamp died. I even bought a new halogen bulb thinking that was the problem,
but it was the lamp.

If it was during the manufacturers warranty, you had another recourse.

HD wants to keep you and me as customers, so they replace defective items
(at least ones that fail almost out of the box) and they deal with the mfg.,
that's smart business. If HD had a big sign at the door reading If It
Doesn't Work We Don't Care, Ship It Back to the Mfg., how many of us would
shop there?

If you lose the receipt, it's your problem. But you said you learned
that.

"Theft" requires loss, pray tell, what did HD lose when I returned the lamp?
I bought two lamps, I exchanged one which they got credit for from the mfg.,
all I did was use the receipt from one lamp for another identical item.
The mfg. suffered no loss they didn't agree to with HD, they replaced
defective stock for a commercial customer who buys millions of bucks worth
of lamps from them, HD's return policy and whether I lost one receipt but
had another means nothing to the mfg.

You're going to some lengths to take the corporate side here. Return
policies that make the consumer jump through hoops or which simply refuse to
accept returns using loopholes are apparently okay with you for some reason.
I agree that returning something purchased a year before and out of warranty
as if it were new is over the line, I can't see myself doing that. But when
a company knowingly sells something defective and then stonewalls on fixing
it until the warranty expires, the company is in the wrong. Doesn't justify
breaking into a store and stealing a new one, but if somebody can finesse a
return in such circumstances despite the company's attempts to prevent it, I
for one will hoist a cold one in their honor. You can have a good scowl
over that if you like.

MikeWhy wrote:

If you recover money taken from you under false pretences, are you a
thief?

That depends how you do it. OJ, for example, went about it all wrong.

That was delayed karma, those slow-grinding wheels finally caught up with
him.

Your option is to not buy junk.

What if you don't know it's junk? What if it's priced, packaged and
...

What if? The original premise was to buy it, use it, burn it out, and
swap it for the same item.

Yes, but that's not what I described doing, In one case I was knowingly sold
junk which the seller and mfg. then declined to do anything about until the
warranty was up at which point they figured they were in the clear. Burning
out a product and then trying to scam a replacement is an entirely different
matter. Mike figures the guys wearing out gear and taking it back as new
are doing the same thing I did when I returned a virtually unused item that
failed in weeks by buying a second and using that receipt, that strikes me
as apples and oranges.

-MIKE- wrote:
J. Clarke wrote:
Mike, have you ever started a class action suit? If not, give it a
try and get back to us on how you do with it. You probably won't
be
quite so much the self-righteous prick after having that
experience.


Only one of many legal and/or ethical recourses we have in civilized
society.

So why is it the only one you have mentioned? Perhaps if you gave
practical advice instead of telling people who are venting anger that
they have "sold their integrity"?

Sorry you see the need to resort to name calling.
Maybe you missed the part where I said I've done it before and it
was
wrong. That sort of rules out, by definition, being self-righteous.

Being a convert does not preclude one from being a self-righteous
prick. In fact in any religion the most obnoxiously overzealous are
generally the converts.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

DGDevin wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:

Class actions suit. One of those legal means.

Sure, try to attract landsharks interested in taking the case (unless you're
prepared to foot the bill up front), wait for a few years until the company
and the lawyers settle out of court, the lawyers get $7.5 million in fees,
the claimants get to split a $3.2 million judgement 127,414 ways. My wife
and I collected on such a case recently regarding a financial services
company that misrepresented fees. In our experience nobody should plan on
recovering their actual losses from such a settlement, what you get is what
the lawyers agree to *after* their handsome fees are paid. I've earmarked
some of the money for a plunge/fixed router kit.

Then you would've decided your integrity was for sale for the price
of a home theater system.

In other words in a dispute between an unscrupulous company and victimized
consumers and in which the deck is stacked in favor of the company, you're
with the company.

Then you would've decided your integrity was for sale for the price of
some inkjet cartridges.

In a situation in which a company pulls a Catch 22 to avoid having to honor
their return policy it's interesting that your instinct is to side with the
company.

It's hardly a high horse, and you're embarrassing yourself by saying
it is.
In how deep a hole must one stand in order that seeing petty theft as
wrong, looks like being on a high horse.

I'm fascinated by how you unerringly see returning defective merchandise as
"theft," as if a company that sets up hurdles, pitfalls and dodges to avoid
having to accept returns is not part of the equation. In a previous century
I was a retail manager for quite a few years, very successfully I might add.
I saw just about every sleazy trick a customer can pull including trying to
return items everyone knew they had broken through unreasonable abuse,
trying to return things they'd purchased at other businesses, trying to
return items from which parts had been removed, and so on. Happily I can
say we never sold anything we knew was defective and then refused to accept
returns because we'd dumped all our stock on unsuspecting customers and thus
our usual return policy no longer counted. IMO that's fraud, and suggesting
that anyone who doesn't like it should hire a lawyer is in effect saying
tough luck, shop somewhere else next time. Hire a lawyer over eighty bucks
worth of ink cartridges?

BTW, I've only done something like this once.

So have I.
And it was just as wrong as when you did it or when anyone else does
it.

I bought a lamp that was defective, I returned a defective lamp, the company
didn't lose a dime because the mfg. replaced it for them. Please point to
the "wrong" for me.

It's too bad they wouldn't take it back.
The HD's here will put it on a gift card if it's something they still
sell.

But that's still more rationalizing.
If it was after the amount of days stated in their return policy, it
was wrong.

It wasn't, it was just long enough for me to wonder why I was keeping the
box for a forty-dollar lamp, as soon as the box and receipt were gone the
lamp died. I even bought a new halogen bulb thinking that was the problem,
but it was the lamp.

If it was during the manufacturers warranty, you had another recourse.

HD wants to keep you and me as customers, so they replace defective items
(at least ones that fail almost out of the box) and they deal with the mfg.,
that's smart business. If HD had a big sign at the door reading If It
Doesn't Work We Don't Care, Ship It Back to the Mfg., how many of us would
shop there?

If you lose the receipt, it's your problem. But you said you learned
that.

"Theft" requires loss, pray tell, what did HD lose when I returned the lamp?
I bought two lamps, I exchanged one which they got credit for from the mfg.,
all I did was use the receipt from one lamp for another identical item.
The mfg. suffered no loss they didn't agree to with HD, they replaced
defective stock for a commercial customer who buys millions of bucks worth
of lamps from them, HD's return policy and whether I lost one receipt but
had another means nothing to the mfg.

You're going to some lengths to take the corporate side here. Return
policies that make the consumer jump through hoops or which simply refuse to
accept returns using loopholes are apparently okay with you for some reason.
I agree that returning something purchased a year before and out of warranty
as if it were new is over the line, I can't see myself doing that. But when
a company knowingly sells something defective and then stonewalls on fixing
it until the warranty expires, the company is in the wrong. Doesn't justify
breaking into a store and stealing a new one, but if somebody can finesse a
return in such circumstances despite the company's attempts to prevent it, I
for one will hoist a cold one in their honor. You can have a good scowl
over that if you like.


Nowhere in my writing have I taken the corporate side or defended a
company for fraud.
My only point in all of this is to say something that we have all heard
from our grandmothers; two wrongs don't make a right.
It is wrong to use fraud to combat fraud.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

J. Clarke wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
J. Clarke wrote:
Mike, have you ever started a class action suit? If not, give it a
try and get back to us on how you do with it. You probably won't
be
quite so much the self-righteous prick after having that
experience.

Only one of many legal and/or ethical recourses we have in civilized
society.

So why is it the only one you have mentioned? Perhaps if you gave
practical advice instead of telling people who are venting anger that
they have "sold their integrity"?

Sorry you see the need to resort to name calling.
Maybe you missed the part where I said I've done it before and it
was
wrong. That sort of rules out, by definition, being self-righteous.

Being a convert does not preclude one from being a self-righteous
prick. In fact in any religion the most obnoxiously overzealous are
generally the converts.


Methinks thou doth protest too much.

We can go back and forth with scenario after scenario.
Like I told the other guy, two wrongs don't make a right.
It's wrong to use fraud to combat fraud.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

-MIKE- wrote:
J. Clarke wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
J. Clarke wrote:
Mike, have you ever started a class action suit? If not, give it
a
try and get back to us on how you do with it. You probably won't
be
quite so much the self-righteous prick after having that
experience.

Only one of many legal and/or ethical recourses we have in
civilized
society.

So why is it the only one you have mentioned? Perhaps if you gave
practical advice instead of telling people who are venting anger
that
they have "sold their integrity"?

Sorry you see the need to resort to name calling.
Maybe you missed the part where I said I've done it before and it
was
wrong. That sort of rules out, by definition, being
self-righteous.

Being a convert does not preclude one from being a self-righteous
prick. In fact in any religion the most obnoxiously overzealous
are
generally the converts.


Methinks thou doth protest too much.

Protest what?

We can go back and forth with scenario after scenario.
Like I told the other guy, two wrongs don't make a right.
It's wrong to use fraud to combat fraud.

It's not the message, it's the stridency with which you deliver it and
the total imcomprehension of the notion of vengeance vs cost as a
motivation.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

On Tue, 13 Jan 2009 21:31:02 -0600, -MIKE- wrote:

I've never had a problem of this type that either the store manager or an email
to the local BBB didn't solve..

DGDevin wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:

Rationalize it all you want, it's theft.

If you recover money taken from you under false pretences, are you a thief?


That's more rationalization.
There are means in place to handle things like that.
You never heard that two wrongs don't make a right.


Your option is to not buy junk.

What if you don't know it's junk? What if it's priced, packaged and
promoted as quality goods but is actually junk *and both the mfg. and the
seller know so*--what then? We bought an Onkyo home theater system some
years back, when it began screwing up we went online and discovered other
folks having the same problems, alas we all seemed to discover the situation
at the same time. Onkyo's warranty depots were unable to fix the systems so
they stalled until the warranties ran out, they went right on selling the
same model. At that point it occured to us that the store which put the
system on sale might have done so for a reason--bingo, as one of their staff
confirmed they knew the system was a dud and they wanted to unload them.


Class actions suit. One of those legal means.


No, we didn't steal something from the store in revenge, but needless to say
we'll never buy another Onkyo product. However if there had been a way to
return the system, say by smudging the date on the receipt, I'd sure have
thought about it.


Then you would've decided your integrity was for sale for the price of a
home theater system.


But that involves being an informed
consumer... which is what is happening in here... in this thread.

That assumes it is possible for the consumer to be informed, and that isn't
always the case. The first batch of consumers to discover that a product is
no good serve as a warning for those who come later, but those first folks
still got ripped off.


Covered above.


In any case, in my experience, Walmart, Lowes, Home Depot will all
take back "a product that fails in an unreasonable period of time (but
outside the store's return policy)."

I just went through this with a big electronics chain over some defective
inkjet cartridges. They realized they'd been selling a poorly-made brand of
cartridges so they dropped them because of many returns. But now they won't
accept any more returns on the grounds that they no longer sell that brand.
No, I didn't steal anything there either, but if I could have thought of a
way to return the cartridges without them realizing what I was doing I might
have done so and not lost any sleep over the "theft."


Then you would've decided your integrity was for sale for the price of
some inkjet cartridges.


We have the option of being honest about it, or run the risk of
having a misdemeanor charge on our record. For most people, however,
the misdemeanor never enters into the equation as a deterrent. For
most, the simple fact is the price of their integrity much higher
than $8.99.

Very fine speech, when you decide to come down off that horse I think
there's still some beer in the fridge.


It's hardly a high horse, and you're embarrassing yourself by saying it
is.
In how deep a hole must one stand in order that seeing petty theft as
wrong, looks like being on a high horse.


BTW, I've only done something like this once.


So have I.
And it was just as wrong as when you did it or when anyone else does it.


I bought a halogen lamp at
HD, it seemed to work okay so after awhile I got rid of the box and the
receipt, which caused the lamp to immediately die. HD wouldn't take it back
without a receipt of course, so I bought another one, put the defective one
in the new box and returned it with the new receipt (they gave me another
lamp). HD lost nothing, they returned the lamp to the mfg. for credit just
as they would have if I'd kept the first box and receipt. So now I have two
lamps that work, both of which I paid for. If I stole anything I'd like to
know just what that was. These days I keep receipts religiously *and*
original packaging which drives my wife crazy, but it's allowed us to return
some defective items that otherwise wouldn't have been accepted, live and
learn.


It's too bad they wouldn't take it back.
The HD's here will put it on a gift card if it's something they still
sell.

But that's still more rationalizing.
If it was after the amount of days stated in their return policy, it was
wrong.
If it was during the manufacturers warranty, you had another recourse.
If you lose the receipt, it's your problem. But you said you learned
that.


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

mac davis wrote:

I've never had a problem of this type that either the store manager or an email
to the local BBB didn't solve..


But Mac, that won't satisfy one's thirst for vengeance, now will it? :-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 11:01:11 -0500, J. Clarke cast forth these pearls of
wisdom...:

-MIKE- wrote:
J. Clarke wrote:
Mike, have you ever started a class action suit? If not, give it a
try and get back to us on how you do with it. You probably won't
be
quite so much the self-righteous prick after having that
experience.


Only one of many legal and/or ethical recourses we have in civilized
society.

So why is it the only one you have mentioned? Perhaps if you gave
practical advice instead of telling people who are venting anger that
they have "sold their integrity"?

Sorry you see the need to resort to name calling.
Maybe you missed the part where I said I've done it before and it
was
wrong. That sort of rules out, by definition, being self-righteous.

Being a convert does not preclude one from being a self-righteous
prick. In fact in any religion the most obnoxiously overzealous are
generally the converts.

--

But... they pale in comparison to ex-smokers...

--

-Mike-

-MIKE- wrote:

Nowhere in my writing have I taken the corporate side or defended a
company for fraud.

Telling people to pursue a class action lawsuit is not practical advice as
in effect it means companies will rarely be called to account. Expecting us
to live by a company's return policiy no matter how unreasonable is also
one-sided, especially when a company comes up with a loophole to let them
ignore their own usual policy. The consumer is at a massive disadvantage,
so if some droid at the returns desk mistakenly allows a consumer to get his
money back against the company's wishes I for one see that as poetic
justice.

My only point in all of this is to say something that we have all
heard from our grandmothers; two wrongs don't make a right.
It is wrong to use fraud to combat fraud.

What "fraud"? I bought two identical items on two different days, one item
was defective, I returned it and HD got a replacement or credit from the
mfg., they suffered no loss. So, where's the fraud?

Nevermind, we've just going in circles here.

However karma seems to be in effect, the company I had the dispute with over
the inkjet cartridges recently discovered one of their top execs had
defrauded them of millions of dollars, can't say I shed any tears over that.

Nowhere in my writing have I taken the corporate side or defended a
company for fraud.

Telling people to pursue a class action lawsuit is not practical advice as
in effect it means companies will rarely be called to account. Expecting us
to live by a company's return policiy no matter how unreasonable is also
one-sided, especially when a company comes up with a loophole to let them
ignore their own usual policy. The consumer is at a massive disadvantage,
so if some droid at the returns desk mistakenly allows a consumer to get his
money back against the company's wishes I for one see that as poetic
justice.


For a creative newsgroup, there seems to be a real lack of imagination.
Another poster offered two more legal, ethical options for dealing with
the unscrupulous retailer. I just threw one option out there and you use
it as reason enough to through out any other ethical options.


My only point in all of this is to say something that we have all
heard from our grandmothers; two wrongs don't make a right.
It is wrong to use fraud to combat fraud.

What "fraud"? I bought two identical items on two different days, one item
was defective, I returned it and HD got a replacement or credit from the
mfg., they suffered no loss. So, where's the fraud?

Nevermind, we've just going in circles here.


You keep adding details to your story, and act like I was replied to
yours, ex pos facto.
The *original poster,* to whom I first replied, suggested buying
something, today, to swap out for something bought a long time ago, and
return it as the new one.
That is fraud and tantamount to theft.


However karma seems to be in effect, the company I had the dispute with over
the inkjet cartridges recently discovered one of their top execs had
defrauded them of millions of dollars, can't say I shed any tears over that.


Neither do I. You reap what you sow.



--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

J. Clarke wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
J. Clarke wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
J. Clarke wrote:

I don't want to enter into that particular fray. I just have another
feel-good Lee Valley story.

In November, I bought a wireless weather centre. The sensor sits outside
and the inside piece tells me how quickly my testicles will enter into
my thorax cavity IF i venture outside. In my area, that's not uncommon.

Kinda handy, cause I have grown to appreciate them hanging where they're
supposed to be hanging.

This thing worked for a while then decided it didn't want to tell me the
outside temps when it was below -20°. Now that was a tad inconvenient
because it's at about that temperature that the balls go south. (Or in
this case - North).

So I called up Lee Valley and mentioned that I was having testicular
travelling problems. Spoke to my new best friend, Don. Don verified my
address and said "We don't sell that model any more". (Groan) "In fact,
we've replaced it with a more expensive one. Give it a week and we'll
have that new one (no price increase) on your doorstep with a stamped
return envelope. Send us back the bad one."

Receipt? Forget it. Original packaging? Not an issue. Timeout? Who knows
with them. I suspect you could return something that you bought in 1973
and still get full value for it.

I'm sure they get scammed by unscrupulous sorts, but this kind of return
policy begins to have legs of its own. What it also does is make me into
a LV zealot who will tell this kind of story until people turn their
backs and walk away.

Tanus

Tanus wrote:
J. Clarke wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
J. Clarke wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
J. Clarke wrote:

I don't want to enter into that particular fray. I just have another
feel-good Lee Valley story.

In November, I bought a wireless weather centre. The sensor sits outside
and the inside piece tells me how quickly my testicles will enter into
my thorax cavity IF i venture outside. In my area, that's not uncommon.

Kinda handy, cause I have grown to appreciate them hanging where they're
supposed to be hanging.

This thing worked for a while then decided it didn't want to tell me the
outside temps when it was below -20°. Now that was a tad inconvenient
because it's at about that temperature that the balls go south. (Or in
this case - North).

So I called up Lee Valley and mentioned that I was having testicular
travelling problems. Spoke to my new best friend, Don. Don verified my
address and said "We don't sell that model any more". (Groan) "In fact,
we've replaced it with a more expensive one. Give it a week and we'll
have that new one (no price increase) on your doorstep with a stamped
return envelope. Send us back the bad one."

Receipt? Forget it. Original packaging? Not an issue. Timeout? Who knows
with them. I suspect you could return something that you bought in 1973
and still get full value for it.

I'm sure they get scammed by unscrupulous sorts, but this kind of return
policy begins to have legs of its own. What it also does is make me into
a LV zealot who will tell this kind of story until people turn their
backs and walk away.

Tanus

The mark of a true customer oriented company. I bought a max/min
thermometer from them and it functions even after the grandsons examined
it. HI HI...

Dave

"Tanus" wrote in message
I don't want to enter into that particular fray. I just have another
feel-good Lee Valley story.

I have one too, just this past weekend. I went to Lee Valley's downtown
Toronto store. It's up a flight of ten stairs, but there's an elevator
there. Went into the store, did my shopping and went to leave only to find
that an elevator serviceman had taken it out of service. I use a wheelchair.
???

One of their salesmen Bob, helped me go out the back entrance and struggled
valiantly helping me get down the steep ramp at the shipping dock. Being the
dirty ice and snow covered driveway it was, he had to drag me and my chair
out backwards carefully avoiding all obstacles and all the way around to the
lobby at the front of the building.

But, it doesn't end there. One of the items I bought was defective and since
I needed a replacement as soon as possible, I went back Saturday, the next
day. In case the elevator was still out of service (and it was since I
phoned first) I figured I could have a sales person to come downstairs just
to exchange the item and I'd on my way.

That salesman was Bob. During the course of the next forty-five minutes, he
helped me find an alternative for the defective item I'd originally bought
and must have run up and down those stairs over a dozen times.

More than just a friendly group of customer service agents on the phone or
by email, the salespeople are of the same calibre, willing to go thoroughly
out of their way to help you out. I don't know if Leonard and now Robin
select their staff particularly for their customer service qualities, but if
they did, then they succeeded admirably.

Kudos to Lee Valley and Bob.

David Moore

"Upscale" wrote

"Tanus" wrote in message
I don't want to enter into that particular fray. I just have another
feel-good Lee Valley story.

I have one too, just this past weekend. I went to Lee Valley's downtown
Toronto store. It's up a flight of ten stairs, but there's an elevator
there. Went into the store, did my shopping and went to leave only to find
that an elevator serviceman had taken it out of service. I use a
wheelchair.
???

One of their salesmen Bob, helped me go out the back entrance and
struggled
valiantly helping me get down the steep ramp at the shipping dock. Being
the
dirty ice and snow covered driveway it was, he had to drag me and my chair
out backwards carefully avoiding all obstacles and all the way around to
the
lobby at the front of the building.

But, it doesn't end there. One of the items I bought was defective and
since
I needed a replacement as soon as possible, I went back Saturday, the next
day. In case the elevator was still out of service (and it was since I
phoned first) I figured I could have a sales person to come downstairs
just
to exchange the item and I'd on my way.

That salesman was Bob. During the course of the next forty-five minutes,
he
helped me find an alternative for the defective item I'd originally bought
and must have run up and down those stairs over a dozen times.

More than just a friendly group of customer service agents on the phone or
by email, the salespeople are of the same calibre, willing to go
thoroughly
out of their way to help you out. I don't know if Leonard and now Robin
select their staff particularly for their customer service qualities, but
if
they did, then they succeeded admirably.

Kudos to Lee Valley and Bob.

David Moore

Are you listening Rob Lee?

It is bad enough that you make all these wonderful products. Now you have to
go and offer this wonderful service as well.

It makes it almost impossibe to say bad things about you!!

Upscale wrote:
"Tanus" wrote in message
I don't want to enter into that particular fray. I just have another
feel-good Lee Valley story.

I have one too, just this past weekend. I went to Lee Valley's downtown
Toronto store. It's up a flight of ten stairs, but there's an elevator
there. Went into the store, did my shopping and went to leave only to find
that an elevator serviceman had taken it out of service. I use a wheelchair.
???

One of their salesmen Bob, helped me go out the back entrance and struggled
valiantly helping me get down the steep ramp at the shipping dock. Being the
dirty ice and snow covered driveway it was, he had to drag me and my chair
out backwards carefully avoiding all obstacles and all the way around to the
lobby at the front of the building.

But, it doesn't end there. One of the items I bought was defective and since
I needed a replacement as soon as possible, I went back Saturday, the next
day. In case the elevator was still out of service (and it was since I
phoned first) I figured I could have a sales person to come downstairs just
to exchange the item and I'd on my way.

That salesman was Bob. During the course of the next forty-five minutes, he
helped me find an alternative for the defective item I'd originally bought
and must have run up and down those stairs over a dozen times.

More than just a friendly group of customer service agents on the phone or
by email, the salespeople are of the same calibre, willing to go thoroughly
out of their way to help you out. I don't know if Leonard and now Robin
select their staff particularly for their customer service qualities, but if
they did, then they succeeded admirably.

Kudos to Lee Valley and Bob.

David Moore


Been there, done that for one of my stores customers when I was in
retail. He wasn't even my customer and didn't buy anything that day.

Dave N

This thing worked for a while then decided it didn't want to
tell me the outside temps when it was below -20°. Now that was a
tad inconvenient because it's at about that temperature that the
balls go south. (Or in this case - North).

Once it goes below -20, does it really matter anymore!?!?!

On Jan 25, 7:37*pm, Tanus wrote:
J. Clarke wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
J. Clarke wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
J. Clarke wrote:

I don't want to enter into that particular fray. I just have another
feel-good Lee Valley story.

In November, I bought a wireless weather centre. The sensor sits outside
and the inside piece tells me how quickly my testicles will enter into
my thorax cavity IF i venture outside. In my area, that's not uncommon.

Kinda handy, cause I have grown to appreciate them hanging where they're
supposed to be hanging.

This thing worked for a while then decided it didn't want to tell me the
outside temps when it was below -20°. Now that was a tad inconvenient
because it's at about that temperature that the balls go south. (Or in
this case - North).

So I called up Lee Valley and mentioned that I was having testicular
travelling problems. Spoke to my new best friend, Don. Don verified my
address and said "We don't sell that model any more". (Groan) "In fact,
we've replaced it with a more expensive one. Give it a week and we'll
have that new one (no price increase) on your doorstep with a stamped
return envelope. Send us back the bad one."

Receipt? Forget it. Original packaging? Not an issue. Timeout? Who knows
with them. I suspect you could return something that you bought in 1973
and still get full value for it.

I'm sure they get scammed by unscrupulous sorts, but this kind of return
policy begins to have legs of its own. What it also does is make me into
a LV zealot who will tell this kind of story until people turn their
backs and walk away.

Tanus

A couple years ago I bought the Murphy Bed kit from Lee Valley (The
300$ on with the gas pistons.) About six weeks after i bought the
kit, i had finally mouted it to the wall when my wife brought me a
letter that came in the mail that day. It was from Lee Valley. It
contained a letter saying: "We recently released our latest catalogue
and have reduced the price of the Murphy Bed kit you bought on so-and-
so date. Included is a cheque for the difference in price plus
taxes. Thank you for being our customer."

I was flabergasted! They retroactively applied the price reduction
and MAILED out a cheque. That is going out of ones way to make a
customer happy.