I got sucked into helping build sets for my son's high school show
choir. I was truly frightened by what I saw. People with little to
no experience were wrestling 4x8 sheets of plywood across a little
jobsite table saw to rip strips about 18" wide. Then they'd crosscut
the strips they had ripped - no sled or anything - just put the end
against the fence and go at it. Only the large size of the panels and
the low power of the saw saved them from being hurt by the several
kickbacks that occured. But they just stayed at it.

The sets change each year, so this is an annual project. I expect to
be involved for four years. Something's got to change. I think the
answer is a dedicated panel saw like the ones they use at the borg to
cut plywood. Milwaukee makes one that seems to go for about $1,500.
Our budget is pretty generous, so I think I could talk them into the
investment. Question is, Is this the saw I need? Anyone have
experience with Milwaukee's panel saw? It's marketed as a commercial
use rig, but it's still about half of the cost of Powermatic's panel
saw. Are there others I should consider?

DonkeyHody
"Every man is my superior in that I can learn from him." - Thomas
Carlyle

"DonkeyHody" wrote in message
...
I got sucked into helping build sets for my son's high school show
choir. I was truly frightened by what I saw. People with little to
no experience were wrestling 4x8 sheets of plywood across a little
jobsite table saw to rip strips about 18" wide. Then they'd crosscut
the strips they had ripped - no sled or anything - just put the end
against the fence and go at it. Only the large size of the panels and
the low power of the saw saved them from being hurt by the several
kickbacks that occured. But they just stayed at it.

The sets change each year, so this is an annual project. I expect to
be involved for four years. Something's got to change. I think the
answer is a dedicated panel saw like the ones they use at the borg to
cut plywood. Milwaukee makes one that seems to go for about $1,500.
Our budget is pretty generous, so I think I could talk them into the
investment. Question is, Is this the saw I need? Anyone have
experience with Milwaukee's panel saw? It's marketed as a commercial
use rig, but it's still about half of the cost of Powermatic's panel
saw. Are there others I should consider?

DonkeyHody
"Every man is my superior in that I can learn from him." - Thomas
Carlyle

This sounds like a job for Festool.

I recommend one of their circular saws with the appropriate length guide
rails. Their large multi-function table would also help.

http://www.festoolusa.com/

Sat, Dec 22, 2007, 5:14pm (EST-3) (DonkeyHody)
doth query:
snip Question is, Is this the saw I need? snip

The saw that YOU need? Thought is was for the school? They would
be paying for it, right?

Probably better to buy the ply at Lowes and have them cut it on
their panel saw. If those people are as inept as you claim, it would
take a full-time keeper to keep them from hurting someone. That gonna
be you? And, if it is you, who's gonna do it after your 4 years? I'd
think a circular sa and straightedge would answer the problem better
than a panel saw, cheaper, nd probably safer too. Actually, all they'd
need is a straight line to follow, and could probably do without the
streight edge.

Out of curiosity, you saw them using the saw like that, and just
let them proceed?



JOAT
My memory is not as sharp as it used to be. Also, my memory is not as
sharp as it used to be.

Subject

SFWIW, have had very good luck with an 18VDC DeWalt unit.

Not having to screw around with a power cord in a panel saw application is a
BIG plus IMHO.

YMMV.

BTW, not stuck with DeWalt, but it does a good job.

Lew

Lew Hodgett said:

Subject

SFWIW, have had very good luck with an 18VDC DeWalt unit.

Not having to screw around with a power cord in a panel saw application is a
BIG plus IMHO.

Errr... Lew, I think they are talking about a panel saw. Usually a
horizontal apparatus / wall mounted thing you straddle a large sheet
onto and it has a track guided saw which cuts the panels to size -
without requiring the ability required to mark or cut a straight line
with a circular saw. Machinery replaces the non-existent skill.

As for me, I'd opt for a straightedge and a circular saw. And if they
only cut a few pieces per session, perhaps a cordless one.
But I'm a cheapskate.


Greg G.

"Greg G." wrote:

Errr... Lew, I think they are talking about a panel saw. Usually a
horizontal apparatus / wall mounted thing you straddle a large sheet
onto and it has a track guided saw which cuts the panels to size -
without requiring the ability required to mark or cut a straight line
with a circular saw. Machinery replaces the non-existent skill.

Oh, you mean that piece of clap-trap you find at the Borg, I stand
corrected.

Guess I always associated small circular saws and "panel saw" as one and the
same.

As for me, I'd opt for a straightedge and a circular saw. And if they
only cut a few pieces per session, perhaps a cordless one.
But I'm a cheapskate.

I'm with you; however, I become very spoiled.

Not having to screw around with power cords is a very BIG plus for me.

It no longer is a luxury, it's a necessity.

Lew

On Dec 22, 7:55*pm, (J T) wrote:
Sat, Dec 22, 2007, 5:14pm (EST-3) (DonkeyHody)
doth query:
snip Question is, Is this the saw I need? *snip

* * *The saw that YOU need? *Thought is was for the school? *They would
be paying for it, right? *

OK, I guess I should have said we, or even they. Right now, I'm the
only one pushing the panel saw idea. The show choir would be funding
the purchase.


* * *Probably better to buy the ply at Lowes and have them cut it on
their panel saw. *If those people are as inept as you claim, it would
take a full-time keeper to keep them from hurting someone. *That gonna
be you? *And, if it is you, who's gonna do it after your 4 years? *I'd
think a circular sa and straightedge would answer the problem better
than a panel saw, cheaper, nd probably safer too. *Actually, all they'd
need is a straight line to follow, and could probably do without the
streight edge.


You don't understand. So far, we've been through about 40 sheets of
plywood. No way the borg is going to cut all that into the gajillion
different sizes of panels we need. Besides, some of the stuff is
designed on the fly. We don't even know what all the dimensions are
until we build the prototype.

* * *Out of curiosity, you saw them using the saw like that, and just
let them proceed?

Yes, I "let" them. Though they aren't woodworkers, some of them have
been doing this for four years, and I'm the new kid on the block. I
wasn't appointed boss of the group, although they are coming to
recognize me as sort of a technical expert. I didn't take on the job
as the Safety Nazi for the group. I'd rather change the group culture
than alienate them by telling them they're stupid. I want to show
them a way to do it safely while maintaining the production they have
now. And running the sheets across the table saw is undeniably faster
than marking and clamping a straightedge for each cut.

This activity has been a paradigm shift for me too. At home in my
shop, I work at my own pace and it takes as long as it takes. If it
takes me three times as long to make a cut, I don't care as long as
it's dead-on accurate. These folks are under a perpetual time
crunch. There's always a deadline looming, and the sets have to be
ready because the show must go on.

*

On Dec 22, 11:38 pm, DonkeyHody wrote:
On Dec 22, 7:55 pm, (J T) wrote:

Sat, Dec 22, 2007, 5:14pm (EST-3) (DonkeyHody)
doth query:
snip Question is, Is this the saw I need? snip

The saw that YOU need? Thought is was for the school? They would
be paying for it, right?

OK, I guess I should have said we, or even they. Right now, I'm the
only one pushing the panel saw idea. The show choir would be funding
the purchase.



Probably better to buy the ply at Lowes and have them cut it on
their panel saw. If those people are as inept as you claim, it would
take a full-time keeper to keep them from hurting someone. That gonna
be you? And, if it is you, who's gonna do it after your 4 years? I'd
think a circular sa and straightedge would answer the problem better
than a panel saw, cheaper, nd probably safer too. Actually, all they'd
need is a straight line to follow, and could probably do without the
streight edge.

You don't understand. So far, we've been through about 40 sheets of
plywood. No way the borg is going to cut all that into the gajillion
different sizes of panels we need. Besides, some of the stuff is
designed on the fly. We don't even know what all the dimensions are
until we build the prototype.

Out of curiosity, you saw them using the saw like that, and just
let them proceed?

Yes, I "let" them. Though they aren't woodworkers, some of them have
been doing this for four years, and I'm the new kid on the block. I
wasn't appointed boss of the group, although they are coming to
recognize me as sort of a technical expert. I didn't take on the job
as the Safety Nazi for the group. I'd rather change the group culture
than alienate them by telling them they're stupid. I want to show
them a way to do it safely while maintaining the production they have
now. And running the sheets across the table saw is undeniably faster
than marking and clamping a straightedge for each cut.

This activity has been a paradigm shift for me too. At home in my
shop, I work at my own pace and it takes as long as it takes. If it
takes me three times as long to make a cut, I don't care as long as
it's dead-on accurate. These folks are under a perpetual time
crunch. There's always a deadline looming, and the sets have to be
ready because the show must go on.

I bought a Safety Speed Cut H-5 panel saw at an auction for $200 some
years back. I didn't use it nearly as much as I thought I would, so I
sold it on eBay some years later and quadrupled my money. I had it
set up so my sheet stock was stored vertically, of course, behind the
saw and I could slide out a sheet and slide it onto the saw to make my
cuts. It kept handling to a minimum, but it still wasn't the ticket
for me.

For your application I'd agree with some of the other replies - the
standard straightedge rip guide used with a circular saw.
http://wayneofthewoods.com/circular-...ing-guide.html
I make the base plywood wide enough so I can use both sides of the rip
guide - one side for each side of the circular saw so I can run the
saw on either side of the fence.
They're cheap, you can make several so several people can be cutting
at once if necessary, they take up no room to speak of and they
minimize/eliminate splintering if that's any concern.

R

"DonkeyHody" wrote in message
...
I got sucked into helping build sets for my son's high school show
choir. I was truly frightened by what I saw. People with little to
no experience were wrestling 4x8 sheets of plywood across a little
jobsite table saw to rip strips about 18" wide. Then they'd crosscut
the strips they had ripped - no sled or anything - just put the end
against the fence and go at it. Only the large size of the panels and
the low power of the saw saved them from being hurt by the several
kickbacks that occured. But they just stayed at it.

The sets change each year, so this is an annual project. I expect to
be involved for four years. Something's got to change. I think the
answer is a dedicated panel saw like the ones they use at the borg to
cut plywood. Milwaukee makes one that seems to go for about $1,500.
Our budget is pretty generous, so I think I could talk them into the
investment. Question is, Is this the saw I need? Anyone have
experience with Milwaukee's panel saw? It's marketed as a commercial
use rig, but it's still about half of the cost of Powermatic's panel
saw. Are there others I should consider?

DonkeyHody
"Every man is my superior in that I can learn from him." - Thomas
Carlyle

I will have to disagree with many of the respondents up to now. If you (or
the choir) have the money to do so, I would go ahead and purchase the panel
saw. Unfortunately, I don't have experience with either of the ones you
mention. IMO, turning several people with questionable safety practices
loose with a bunch of handheld circular saws just isn't a good idea. Not
that a panel saw is 100% safe, mind you, but I think it's a better choice.
Circular saws and straightedge guides are great (I have one) around the shop
for a few sheets, but if you're cutting 40 at a time, I really think you're
into panel saw territory.

todd

"DonkeyHody" wrote in message
OK, I guess I should have said we, or even they. Right now, I'm the
only one pushing the panel saw idea. The show choir would be funding
the purchase.

I know you said their budget was generous, but I think you should be
approaching this from a different perspective. Just because a panel saw
might be used doesn't mean that accidents can't happen. Careless or
inexperienced people on a cheap table saw translates to the same careless or
inexperienced people on a panel saw. Give an inexperienced or careless
person a chance and they will find a way to hurt themselves every time.

Print out a half dozen graphic tablesaw amputations and take them in with
you. Then sit them down and instruct them on proper tablesaw usage. You
might suggest upgrading to a better tablesaw, but with the addition of some
infeed and outfeed tables (assuming there's enough workspace available),
that 'generous' budget might be applied to some other needy area in the
theatre.

Apparently, you're the 'technical expert' on site now. Put that status to
use and save someone a painful, terrifying injury, not to mention the shock
that will go through the rest of the group when it happens. As well, you'd
be struggling with the guilt for not doing this instruction the rest of your
life. Make the most important contribution to this theatre group that you
can.

If safety is a concern and a generous budget is available, how about a
Sawstop?

On Dec 22, 7:14 pm, DonkeyHody wrote:
I got sucked into helping build sets for my son's high school show
choir. I was truly frightened by what I saw. People with little to
no experience were wrestling 4x8 sheets of plywood across a little
jobsite table saw to rip strips about 18" wide. Then they'd crosscut
the strips they had ripped - no sled or anything - just put the end
against the fence and go at it. Only the large size of the panels and
the low power of the saw saved them from being hurt by the several
kickbacks that occured. But they just stayed at it.

The sets change each year, so this is an annual project. I expect to
be involved for four years. Something's got to change. I think the
answer is a dedicated panel saw like the ones they use at the borg to
cut plywood. Milwaukee makes one that seems to go for about $1,500.
Our budget is pretty generous, so I think I could talk them into the
investment. Question is, Is this the saw I need? Anyone have
experience with Milwaukee's panel saw? It's marketed as a commercial
use rig, but it's still about half of the cost of Powermatic's panel
saw. Are there others I should consider?

DonkeyHody
"Every man is my superior in that I can learn from him." - Thomas
Carlyle

DH,

I have read the entire thread. I think a panel saw is one of the
safest ways to go. I have always wanted one and may take the home
made route (Search Rockler.com for "panel saw plan"). I am always
happy when I can solve a problem by woodworking!

Montyhp

Dear Donkey,

(Always wanted to say that)

Kudos to you for your support of youth activities. They all need more
folks like you.

Another parallel idea.

I had a class that did some work with Habitat for Humanity, which
makes a habit of working with unskilled volunteers for construction.

Their power saw of choice was a miter saw. I was impressed. It's a
lot safer than a circular saw or a table saw, and the design
practically prevents kick backs.

A panel saw (frame type) could be made too, I think I've seen numerous
shop tips about how to do it, and I'm sure would be safer than the
present lash up.

Another thought would be to identify the panel saw as a "SERIOUSLY
DANGEROUS WEAPON" and allow only properly safety briefed (oops, the
mental picture of that isn't what I meant) persons to operate it.
Lesser lights could cut the plywood pieces to length, and assemble
them.

Merry Christmas

Old Guy



On Dec 22, 7:14*pm, DonkeyHody wrote:
I got sucked into helping build sets for my son's high school show
choir. *I was truly frightened by what I saw. *People with little to
no experience were wrestling 4x8 sheets of plywood across a little
jobsite table saw to rip strips about 18" wide. *Then they'd crosscut
the strips they had ripped - no sled or anything - just put the end
against the fence and go at it. *Only the large size of the panels and
the low power of the saw saved them from being hurt by the several
kickbacks that occured. *But they just stayed at it.

The sets change each year, so this is an annual project. *I expect to
be involved for four years. *Something's got to change. *I think the
answer is a dedicated panel saw like the ones they use at the borg to
cut plywood. *Milwaukee makes one that seems to go for about $1,500.
Our budget is pretty generous, so I think I could talk them into the
investment. *Question is, Is this the saw I need? *Anyone have
experience with Milwaukee's panel saw? *It's marketed as a commercial
use rig, but it's still about half of the cost of Powermatic's panel
saw. *Are there others I should consider?

DonkeyHody
"Every man is my superior in that I can learn from him." - Thomas
Carlyle

DH,

I have read the entire thread. *I think a panel saw is one of the
safest ways to go. *I have always wanted one and may take the home
made route (Search Rockler.com for "panel saw plan"). *I am always
happy when I can solve a problem by woodworking!

Montyhp

Thanks to all for the replies. When I'm in my own shop, and need to
cut a full-size sheet of plywood, I lay some 2x4s on the floor,
measure 1/4 oversize and clamp a straightedge, cut with a hand-held
circular saw, then re-cut to final dimensions on my table saw (which
is equipped with outfeed and side extensions). But I'm undeniably
anal about woodworking and the extra time required to go through all
those steps is of no consequence to me. And I know how to place the
2x4s on the floor to support the sheet without pinching the blade. I
see all sorts of opportunities for disaster if we put people who may
have never held a circular saw before in that situation. My very next
order of business is to build outfeed and side extensions for the
group's existing table saw. But it still will be a barely tolerable
solution. The extension tables will take up a lot of much needed room
and the available horizontal surface will immediately become a catch-
all for every tool, screw and coffee cup in the place. I still think
a panel saw will be the safest and most productive alternative. Plus,
it can live against a wall and won't take up so much space.

I spent most of Friday building a proper stand for their compound
miter saw. When I arrived on the scene a few weeks ago, the miter saw
was on the floor, and they would stack scraps on the floor to hold up
the dangling ends of the board. Now, with 4 feet of table on either
side of the saw and a full-length fence, we can clamp a stop to the
fence instead of measuring and marking each piece. There are so many
opportunities for improvement that it's hard to know where to start.

DonkeyHody
"Every man is my superior in that I can learn from him." - Thomas
Carlyle

On Sat, 22 Dec 2007 17:14:25 -0800 (PST), DonkeyHody
wrote:

I got sucked into helping build sets for my son's high school show
choir. I was truly frightened by what I saw. People with little to
no experience were wrestling 4x8 sheets of plywood across a little
jobsite table saw to rip strips about 18" wide. Then they'd crosscut
the strips they had ripped - no sled or anything - just put the end
against the fence and go at it. Only the large size of the panels and
the low power of the saw saved them from being hurt by the several
kickbacks that occured. But they just stayed at it.

The sets change each year, so this is an annual project. I expect to
be involved for four years. Something's got to change. I think the
answer is a dedicated panel saw like the ones they use at the borg to
cut plywood. Milwaukee makes one that seems to go for about $1,500.
Our budget is pretty generous, so I think I could talk them into the
investment. Question is, Is this the saw I need? Anyone have
experience with Milwaukee's panel saw? It's marketed as a commercial
use rig, but it's still about half of the cost of Powermatic's panel
saw. Are there others I should consider?

DonkeyHody
"Every man is my superior in that I can learn from him." - Thomas
Carlyle

I purchased the Milwaukee panel saw for the scene shop for our local
community theater. We used it to cut anything from 1/4 inch luan to
3/4 inch decking ply.

Not only does it make cutting full sheets of ply much easier, it's
much faster and safer than trying to wrestle those heavy sheets up
onto a table saw. Everyone who had an experience with this saw was
amazed at how much easier it was to use.

I use both the panel saw and straight edge/circular saw for cutting
plywood and can only say that when building a set with lots of plywood
cutting, the panel saw wins hands down.

Two points: Take your time on setup to get it as accurate as possible
and purchase the mid support rail. I didn't do the second and
regretted it because you have to bend down a lot when cutting narrow
strips to length.

HTH
Bill

I purchased the Milwaukee panel saw for the scene shop for our local
community theater. *We used it to cut anything from 1/4 inch luan to
3/4 inch decking ply.

Not only does it make cutting full sheets of ply much easier, it's
much faster and safer than trying to wrestle those heavy sheets up
onto a table saw. *Everyone who had an experience with this saw was
amazed at how much easier it was to use.

I use both the panel saw and straight edge/circular saw for cutting
plywood and can only say that when building a set with lots of plywood
cutting, the panel saw wins hands down.

Two points: Take your time on setup to get it as accurate as possible
and purchase the mid support rail. *I didn't do the second and
regretted it because you have to bend down a lot when cutting narrow
strips to length.

Bill,
You're the guy I've been looking for! From the photos, it appears
that the Milwaukee saw doesn't move horizontally, that you push the
material through it to make cuts longer than 4 feet, is that correct?
Is the bed long enough to rip an 8 foot piece accurately, or does it
require skill to keep it straight?

DonkeyHody
"If you think you've made it foolproof, you've obviously
underestimated the ingenuity of the fool."

On Sat, 22 Dec 2007 18:58:31 -0800, "Lew Hodgett"
wrote:

Subject

SFWIW, have had very good luck with an 18VDC DeWalt unit.


Same here. I cut on the floor, on my knees, on 2" blue foam. With a
good blade, the thing goes a long time. With two batteries, I can't
cut fast enough to fall behind the charger.

On the other hand, a very nice surround (infeed / outfeed table), as
well as a proper shop-made splitter, could be built to hold the
jobsite saw that could make ripping long sheets easy and much safer.

I also like the previously mentioned ideas of watching auctions for a
good panel saw cheap!

As far as crosscutting with the fence... That's where Donkey Hody
comes in with some OJT! G

On Sun, 23 Dec 2007 05:43:31 -0800 (PST), DonkeyHody
wrote:

There are so many
opportunities for improvement that it's hard to know where to start.

Luckily, they have you.

You never know, you may save a serious injury and/or inspire a future
woodworker.

DonkeyHody wrote:
I got sucked into helping build sets for my son's high school show
choir. I was truly frightened by what I saw. People with little to
no experience were wrestling 4x8 sheets of plywood across a little
jobsite table saw to rip strips about 18" wide. Then they'd crosscut
the strips they had ripped - no sled or anything - just put the end
against the fence and go at it. Only the large size of the panels and
the low power of the saw saved them from being hurt by the several
kickbacks that occured. But they just stayed at it.

The sets change each year, so this is an annual project. I expect to
be involved for four years. Something's got to change. I think the
answer is a dedicated panel saw like the ones they use at the borg to
cut plywood. Milwaukee makes one that seems to go for about $1,500.
Our budget is pretty generous, so I think I could talk them into the
investment. Question is, Is this the saw I need? Anyone have
experience with Milwaukee's panel saw? It's marketed as a commercial
use rig, but it's still about half of the cost of Powermatic's panel
saw. Are there others I should consider?

DonkeyHody
"Every man is my superior in that I can learn from him." - Thomas
Carlyle

Go cheap and save the money for educational materials the school really
needs: http://www.popularwoodworking.com/te...ticle?id=11186

Go cheap and save the money for educational materials the school really
needs

The show choir is self-funded. It does not compete with education for
money. The director is paid a salary by the school, but ticket sales
and fundraisers bring in the rest. Oh, and the parents of each kid pay
an unholy monthly fee for the privilege of participation.

DonkeyHody
"We, the unwilling, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for
the ungrateful. We have done so much with so little for so long that
we are now qualified to do anything with nothing."

"DonkeyHody" wrote in message
...
DH,

I have read the entire thread. I think a panel saw is one of the
safest ways to go. I have always wanted one and may take the home
made route (Search Rockler.com for "panel saw plan"). I am always
happy when I can solve a problem by woodworking!

Montyhp

Thanks to all for the replies. When I'm in my own shop, and need to
cut a full-size sheet of plywood, I lay some 2x4s on the floor,
measure 1/4 oversize and clamp a straightedge, cut with a hand-held
circular saw, then re-cut to final dimensions on my table saw (which
is equipped with outfeed and side extensions). But I'm undeniably
anal about woodworking and the extra time required to go through all
those steps is of no consequence to me. And I know how to place the
2x4s on the floor to support the sheet without pinching the blade. I
see all sorts of opportunities for disaster if we put people who may
have never held a circular saw before in that situation. My very next
order of business is to build outfeed and side extensions for the
group's existing table saw. But it still will be a barely tolerable
solution. The extension tables will take up a lot of much needed room
and the available horizontal surface will immediately become a catch-
all for every tool, screw and coffee cup in the place. I still think
a panel saw will be the safest and most productive alternative. Plus,
it can live against a wall and won't take up so much space.

I spent most of Friday building a proper stand for their compound
miter saw. When I arrived on the scene a few weeks ago, the miter saw
was on the floor, and they would stack scraps on the floor to hold up
the dangling ends of the board. Now, with 4 feet of table on either
side of the saw and a full-length fence, we can clamp a stop to the
fence instead of measuring and marking each piece. There are so many
opportunities for improvement that it's hard to know where to start.

DonkeyHody
"Every man is my superior in that I can learn from him." - Thomas
Carlyle

Boy are they lucky to have you involved! It seems that the key is to get
them to understand the potential dangers and low quality results from doing
things the wrong way and the rewards from doing things the correct way.



I recently started to help the theater department at the local high school
and can't even get them to drill pilot holes for screws. The culture passed
down from class to class is strange. The kids seem to develop pride from
being able to do something the wrong way even if the right way is easier to
achieve and produces much better results.

DonkeyHody wrote:
I got sucked into helping build sets for my son's high school show
choir. I was truly frightened by what I saw. People with little to
no experience were wrestling 4x8 sheets of plywood across a little
jobsite table saw to rip strips about 18" wide. Then they'd crosscut
the strips they had ripped - no sled or anything - just put the end
against the fence and go at it. Only the large size of the panels and
the low power of the saw saved them from being hurt by the several
kickbacks that occured. But they just stayed at it.

The sets change each year, so this is an annual project. I expect to
be involved for four years. Something's got to change. I think the
answer is a dedicated panel saw like the ones they use at the borg to
cut plywood. Milwaukee makes one that seems to go for about $1,500.
Our budget is pretty generous, so I think I could talk them into the
investment. Question is, Is this the saw I need? Anyone have
experience with Milwaukee's panel saw? It's marketed as a commercial
use rig, but it's still about half of the cost of Powermatic's panel
saw. Are there others I should consider?

DonkeyHody
"Every man is my superior in that I can learn from him." - Thomas
Carlyle

Simple, cheap method that works great for me:

Build open support frame of tubafors screwed together more than an inch
away from edge, to make an open matrix about 4' x 8'.

Drop 4' x 8' sheet onto frame.

Set up straight edge for cutting an edge "really" straight, if it
matters, with circ-saw set to just cut through sheet. Then set up
straight edge for subsequent cuts. Main challenge here is sequence of
cuts to harvest most of sheet. Simple factory-made guide of (2) 4'+
lengths works great.

Resting tubafore support frame on tailgate of p/u and horses also works
great for breaking down sheets while unloading, and minimizes damage.

Only incremental expense is a few tubafores and screws. Meanwhile, all
extremities are full-length. No amputations/kickbacks yet.

John

On Sun, 23 Dec 2007 06:40:29 -0800 (PST), DonkeyHody
wrote:



Bill,
You're the guy I've been looking for! From the photos, it appears
that the Milwaukee saw doesn't move horizontally, that you push the
material through it to make cuts longer than 4 feet, is that correct?
Is the bed long enough to rip an 8 foot piece accurately, or does it
require skill to keep it straight?

DonkeyHody
"If you think you've made it foolproof, you've obviously
underestimated the ingenuity of the fool."

That is correct. The saw only moves vertically. I think the total
movement is The platten is rotated 90 degrees and locked in place for
long rip cuts. For full 8' sheets, you will need to buy the feed rail
extensions. For ripping, I've found it's best to have two people (but
not necessary). One to feed and one to extract. However, you can feed
a sheet part way, move to the other side and pull the sheet the rest
of the way through. I typically handled up to 1/2 inch sheets myself,
and asked for help with 3/4 inch sheets for ease of handling.

Again, accuracy depends on setup. The bottom rail extensions have
adjustable feed rollers, that need to be aligned with a long straight
edge. If I remember correctly, the feed rollers on the main rail were
pre-set. I didn't check the accuracy very often, but in general, the
accuracy appeared to be within 1/16 inch or better.

The only drawback is that the crosscut stop only goes to about 60
inches, so if you are using the stop to cut a piece longer than that,
you need to do a little math.

The picture shown he http://tinyurl.com/35d57s includes the rail
extensions (as well as all of the other accessories, I believe).

Bill

On Sun, 23 Dec 2007 22:17:32 GMT, John Barry
wrote:



Simple, cheap method that works great for me:

Build open support frame of tubafors screwed together more than an inch
away from edge, to make an open matrix about 4' x 8'.

Drop 4' x 8' sheet onto frame.

Set up straight edge for cutting an edge "really" straight, if it
matters, with circ-saw set to just cut through sheet. Then set up
straight edge for subsequent cuts. Main challenge here is sequence of
cuts to harvest most of sheet. Simple factory-made guide of (2) 4'+
lengths works great.

Resting tubafore support frame on tailgate of p/u and horses also works
great for breaking down sheets while unloading, and minimizes damage.

Only incremental expense is a few tubafores and screws. Meanwhile, all
extremities are full-length. No amputations/kickbacks yet.

John


I think most of the posters are missing the point. The OP is asking
if a panel saw is the best solution for his situation, not the
cheapest.

I've used a table saw, circular saw with straight edge and home made
jigs and none of them beat the panel saw for dealing with full size
sheets of plywood. I will admit that I've never used a commercial
table saw with massive infeed and outfeed tables though.

Our scene shop workers consisted of people with many, many years of
experience to those with no experience at all. With minimal training,
just about anyone could be taught to use the panel saw safely.

I never felt comfortable letting people with little experienc use the
table saw or circular saw. I won't say it doesn't happen, but I never
experienced a kickback with the panel saw.

Another thing of note is that we have a power miter saw fixed in place
for cutting board stock. We have the luxury of having a 30 foot bench
with the saw fixed in the middle. Again, much safer and quicker than
a circular saw.

Bill

"Bill" wrote in message
...
I think most of the posters are missing the point. The OP is asking
if a panel saw is the best solution for his situation, not the
cheapest.

Exactly. Many, despite evidence to the contrary, also seem to have it in
their heads that experienced woodworkers are doing this work. Though it
would be nice, I have no real need for a panel saw because I just don't cut
enough volume of sheet goods to make it worth the cost. The OP talks about
cutting 40 sheets at a time.

todd

I think most of the posters are missing the point. *The OP is asking
if a panel saw is the best solution for his situation, not the
cheapest.

I've used a table saw, circular saw with straight edge and home made
jigs and none of them beat the panel saw for dealing with full size
sheets of plywood. *I will admit that I've never used a commercial
table saw with massive infeed and outfeed tables though.

Our scene shop workers consisted of people with many, many years of
experience to those with no experience at all. *With minimal training,
just about anyone could be taught to use the panel saw safely.

I never felt comfortable letting people with little experienc use *the
table saw or circular saw. *I won't say it doesn't happen, but I never
experienced a kickback with the panel saw.

Another thing of note is that we have a power miter saw fixed in place
for cutting board stock. We have the luxury of having a 30 foot bench
with the saw fixed in the middle. *Again, much safer and quicker than
a circular saw.

Bill

Thank you for correctly interpreting my perhaps ill-phrased question.
I know all about the cheap solutions. Trouble is, they take too much
time and don't reduce the risk significantly. I've been cutting
plywood with a circular saw and straightedges for decades, but this
high-volume operation needs a quicker method that will yeild accurate
results and can be used by semi-skilled volunteers. I'm already
convinced that a panel saw, or some other very similar machine, is
what we need. What I wanted to know was about the Milwaukee in
particular, and also if there are other similar machines I should look
into. Thanks again for your help.

DonkeyHody
"While I know you understood what you thought I said, you fail to
realize that what you heard was not what I meant."

On Dec 23, 8:29 am, DonkeyHody wrote:
Go cheap and save the money for educational materials the school really
needs

The show choir is self-funded. It does not compete with education for
money. The director is paid a salary by the school, but ticket sales
and fundraisers bring in the rest. Oh, and the parents of each kid pay
an unholy monthly fee for the privilege of participation.

well, if they have the funds and the space, a panel saw would be of
great service to them. good panel saws are expensive, though. perhaps
if there is a metal shop at the school they might be interested in
taking on building one as a class project?

On Mon, 24 Dec 2007 09:01:51 -0500, Bill
wrote:

I think most of the posters are missing the point. The OP is asking
if a panel saw is the best solution for his situation, not the
cheapest.

This is Usenet. I asked a question about a specific mortising
machine, and was told to use a plunge router. G

I agree that the panel saw is the best solution, if space and funds
are available.

Sun, Dec 23, 2007, 5:31am (EST-3) (Old*Guy) doth sayeth:
snip Their power saw of choice was a miter saw. I was impressed. It's
a lot safer than a circular saw or a table saw, and the design
practically prevents kick backs. snip

I consider my mitre saw one of my scarier tools. I can just see
turning a bunch like those descrived with miter saws, and lopping
fingers off right and left.

It's no problem cutting along a line with a circular saw, if you
don't opt to use a straightedge. "Ge doctore, I was just trying to cut
that really small piee." Probably they wouldn't do much better with a
panel saw, proably want to cut some odd shapes. If they freehand panels
on a contractor saw they sure can't be much concerned with really
accurate cuts. I'd say the safest way would be a couple of circular
saws, and a couple (or more) dedicated cutters. Or get 'em a few sabre
saws and turn 'em loose, I've never heard of anyone getting a critical
injury with one of those - of course there's always a first time. And
make bloody damn sure they con't screw with any circular saw guards.
Me, I'd probably bail, and to Hell with 'em all.



JOAT
My memory is not as sharp as it used to be. Also, my memory is not as
sharp as it used to be.

Thank you for correctly interpreting my perhaps ill-phrased question.
I know all about the cheap solutions. Trouble is, they take too much
time and don't reduce the risk significantly.

I admire your diplomatic approach to joining this group. No one responds well
to the "new kid on the block" trying to boss people around or becoming a
"safety Nazi"! Your skills have obviously been recognized and I'm sure you're
correct in concluding that they view you as their "technical expert".

There've been many good suggestions (some not so good) about equipment and
techniques so I'll simply add that I think a good quality panel saw would
make a fine "investment" for many years to come. May I also suggest an idea
taken from the pages of The Home Depot approach to equipment. I work parttime
at a local store and no one can operate any of the equipment (saws, cutters,
forklifts, etc.) without first completing an equipment orientation and safety
training course. Their policy is driven for liability reasons.

May I suggest that you, as the expert, develop a brief and simple orientation
course for each of the tools in the inventory. The intent wouldn't be to
teach people how to design and build things... but simply to ensure they know
the correct and safe operation of a power tool. Whoever is the overall "boss"
of the program would readily see the value of adopting a policy requiring
everyone to have this training before using any potentially dangerous power
tool. Maintaining a log showing who's been trained would be a good thing, too.
The orientation would minimize the potential for personal injury or damage to
the equipment and it would go a long way to indemnifying the organization
(and its members) from a lawsuit.

Good on 'ya for helping in the community and passing on your skills and
knowledge to the younger generation. After all... they'll be building our
coffins!

Michael

--
Message posted via http://www.craftkb.com

I admire your diplomatic approach to joining this group. No one responds well
to the "new kid on the block" trying to boss people around or becoming a
"safety Nazi"! Your skills have obviously been recognized and I'm sure you're
correct in concluding that they view you as their "technical expert".

There've been many good suggestions (some not so good) about equipment and
techniques so I'll simply add that I think a good quality panel saw would
make a fine "investment" for many years to come. May I also suggest an idea
taken from the pages of The Home Depot approach to equipment. I work parttime
at a local store and no one can operate any of the equipment (saws, cutters,
forklifts, etc.) without first completing an equipment orientation and safety
training course. Their policy is driven for liability reasons.

May I suggest that you, as the expert, develop a brief and simple orientation
course for each of the tools in the inventory. The intent wouldn't be to
teach people how to design and build things... but simply to ensure they know
the correct and safe operation of a power tool. Whoever is the overall "boss"
of the program would readily see the value of adopting a policy requiring
everyone to have this training before using any potentially dangerous power
tool. Maintaining a log showing who's been trained would be a good thing, too.
The orientation would minimize the potential for personal injury or damage to
the equipment and it would go a long way to indemnifying the organization
(and its members) from a lawsuit.

Good on 'ya for helping in the community and passing on your skills and
knowledge to the younger generation. After all... they'll be building our
coffins!


One thing I failed to make clear is that these are NOT high school
kids building sets. The dads are building sets while the kids
practice. But many of the other dads are quite a bit younger than I
am.

I'm amazed both with what they've been able to accomplish in building
sets, and with the total lack of organization or any systematic
approach. The guy who is overall in charge of making it happen is an
architech. He's mostly an artsy type with good people skills, but
he's not into tools & such. He confessed the other day that he
doesn't own a drill.

There are huge gaps in the group's tool inventory. Those gaps are
usually filled by tools the volunteers bring from home. I don't mind
taking my tools up there for my own use, or under my watch, but I
treasure my tools and I'm not willing to leave them for others to use
while I'm not there.

Most of the group had never used a quality jig saw before and were
amazed at the performance and smoothness of my Porter Cable.

There's lots of other tools I'd like them to buy besides the panel
saw, but I think the panel saw would help prevent that accident that's
just waiting to happen.

DonkeyHody
"Every man is my superior in that I can learn from him." - Thomas
Carlyle

"DonkeyHody"

There's lots of other tools I'd like them to buy besides the panel
saw, but I think the panel saw would help prevent that accident that's
just waiting to happen.

I may have missed it, but are you not going to instruct them on safe tool
use? And, as soon as possible? You seem preoccupied with them buying a panel
saw, but they have they're safety hazards too, just not as many as a table
saw. Why haven't you yet spoken up within your theatre group about your
concerns about safety? Either you're too shy to do so for some reason or
hesitant for another reason. What is it? I'm not attacking you, reciting
what seems to be happening.

I may have missed it, but are you not going to instruct them on safe tool
use? And, as soon as possible? You seem preoccupied with them buying a panel
saw, but they have they're safety hazards too, just not as many as a table
saw. Why haven't you yet spoken up within your theatre group about your
concerns about safety? Either you're too shy to do so for some reason or
hesitant for another reason. What is it? I'm not attacking you, reciting
what seems to be happening.

I did point out to them the dangers of crosscutting against the
fence. I have stated to the leadership that I think wrestling full-
size sheets across an undersize table saw with no outfeed table is
unecessarily dangerous. But until we have a better way, I'm not going
to attempt to stop grown adults from doing something just because I
consider it risky. If I were in charge of them, it would be
different, but I'm not. Next you'll want me to confront people who
skydive, bungie jump and jaywalk. I'm not taking on that
responsibility, and if you see it as a character weakness, I can live
with it.

DonkeyHody
"We should be careful to get out of an experience only the wisdom
that is in it - and stop there; lest we be like the cat that sits
down
on a hot stove-lid. She will never sit down on a hot stove-lid
again---and that is well; but also she will never sit down on a cold
one anymore." - Mark Twain

There are huge gaps in the group's tool inventory. Those gaps are
usually filled by tools the volunteers bring from home. I don't mind
taking my tools up there for my own use, or under my watch,

I hope you won't think I'm bragging when I say that I own or owned just about
every tool you can imagine. And to present my credentials I'll tell you that
I was a licensed welder, machinist and gunsmith before pursuing knowledge and
skill development in the building, electronics and computer trades. I've
owned a number of different businesses and have achieved a measure of
noteriety (within my neck of the woods, anyway) as a world champion athlete
in a shooting sport. I'm told that I'm a fairly reasonable and learned guy.

But...my suggestion to you draws upon 32 years in law enforcement (I'm
currently a Detective Sergeant in command of a specialty unit). Over the
years I've investigated many, many industrial and residential accidents and
have witnessed both the physical carnage and the legal ramifications from
these types of events. Ask your insurance agent why your homeowner's policy
includes a "slip and fall" clause to protect you in the event a trespasser
becomes injured while on your property.

North American culture... and more importantly, our courts... have created
the notion that we have a right to be protected from our own stupidity. If I
get hurt... someone else has to pay, regardless of how stupid my actions were!


If you take one of your tools to use at the jobsite and someone uses it
without your knowledge or permission and hurts themselves... in a lawsuit you
could be found "negligent" for not securing the dangerous tool from another
person's access. And it could cost 'ya.

If you take one of your tools to use at the jobsite and allow another person
to use it with your permission but without ensuring that they know how to use
it safely, and they get hurt... you could be found "grossly negligent" and it
could cost 'ya... big time! The same holds true for the organization and its
principals, directors, directly involved members, and so on.

But don't just take my word for it... check out the meaning of "negligence"
and "gross negligence" with a lawyer and ask him or her about civil liability
as well. I'm sure that the artsy fartsy architect will understand... as he's
no doubt aware of his liability risks in the event that a building he designs
should fall on someone's head.

I'm not trying to scare you... I'm offering my opinion to help you, based
upon my experience and based upon the horror stories I personally know about.
It would be a shame to lose all your tools... your house, your car/truck, etc.
for lack of a few minutes taken to cover 'yer butt!

Geez... did I say all that out loud?!? I didn't mean to climb up on a soap
box... I guess I would just hate to see a good guy like you get hooped!

All the best and good luck to you.

Michael

--
Message posted via CraftKB.com
http://www.craftkb.com/Uwe/Forums.as...rking/200712/1

"DonkeyHody" wrote in message
But until we have a better way, I'm not going
to attempt to stop grown adults from doing something just because I
consider it risky.

Next you'll want me to confront people who
skydive, bungie jump and jaywalk. I'm not taking on that
responsibility, and if you see it as a character weakness, I can live
with it.

There's a considerable difference between people who engage in risky
activities for the thrill of it and those who are just trying to enjoy
themselves in friendly interaction like your theatre group. You didn't
hesitate for one second in stating your concern here in this newsgroup
obviously because you feel the people here would be more likely to support
what you are thinking. That doesn't appear to be the case within your
theatre group however.

If was in your place, I'd speak up and present graphic examples of what
they're doing wrong and suggest how it could be fixed. All that could happen
is that I might be temporarily booed a bit, but then it would be over.
Consider however, if they took you seriously and acted on your concerns.

Just as obviously, these are only my opinions. My personality usually
dictates that I should act if I think I can make a positive contribution to
some situation, at least when it comes to my friends.

I started a similar thread few weeks back but had as much luck getting
some useful advice as you so far - just a few replies not really on
the subject - of what panel saw to buy? I see that there is a trend
here to suggest straight edge and rotary saw approach or track systems
like Festool or Eurekazone.
I have just bought the Eurekazone system and after spending some $500
for the saw and router attachments I see that the key (as I thought)
is the method of holding the 4x8 sheet and consistently making
perpendicular cuts. No straight edge or track system will provide that
- you need a panel saw - end of story.
For my shop the other key feature of the panel saw over the other
horizontal approach is the small space that is required to slice the
big panel. The vertical placement will save have of my shop floor
space.

As far as panel saw manufacturers I see two choices: Milwaukee or
Trax.
I think that both of them come to the same price of ~$2000 after you
include extensions to support 4x8 panels and dust collection. The
advantage of Trax is that it has router attachment and is powder
coated.
-Peter

On Wed, 26 Dec 2007 05:44:41 GMT, "toolman946 via CraftKB.com"
u40139@uwe wrote:

But don't just take my word for it... check out the meaning of "negligence"
and "gross negligence" with a lawyer and ask him or her about civil liability
as well. I'm sure that the artsy fartsy architect will understand... as he's
no doubt aware of his liability risks in the event that a building he designs
should fall on someone's head.

I'm not trying to scare you... I'm offering my opinion to help you, based
upon my experience and based upon the horror stories I personally know about.
It would be a shame to lose all your tools... your house, your car/truck, etc.
for lack of a few minutes taken to cover 'yer butt!

Geez... did I say all that out loud?!? I didn't mean to climb up on a soap
box... I guess I would just hate to see a good guy like you get hooped!

Sadly, I had some similar thoughts.

I do volunteer work, where I'll never loan my power tools to anyone
who I haven't developed total respect for their skills and
sensibilities. I turn down LOTS of requests at jobs to use my tools
to make a quick cut, or drive a few nails...

I'm not even sure I would select a specific panel saw for the school
to buy, or install it. I would simply point them to a knowledgeable
local dealer, who can sell it and set it up.

pzi wrote:
I started a similar thread few weeks back but had as much luck
getting
some useful advice as you so far - just a few replies not really on
the subject - of what panel saw to buy? I see that there is a trend
here to suggest straight edge and rotary saw approach or track
systems
like Festool or Eurekazone.
I have just bought the Eurekazone system and after spending some
$500
for the saw and router attachments I see that the key (as I thought)
is the method of holding the 4x8 sheet and consistently making
perpendicular cuts. No straight edge or track system will provide
that
- you need a panel saw - end of story.
For my shop the other key feature of the panel saw over the other
horizontal approach is the small space that is required to slice the
big panel. The vertical placement will save have of my shop floor
space.

As far as panel saw manufacturers I see two choices: Milwaukee or
Trax.
I think that both of them come to the same price of ~$2000 after you
include extensions to support 4x8 panels and dust collection. The
advantage of Trax is that it has router attachment and is powder
coated.

There are at least three shop made panel saw designs out there, one
from Rockler (which I believe was originally published in Woodworkers'
Journal) and two from Shop Notes, that if labor is free might be
significantly cheaper than the Milwaukee or Trax. I've not used any
of them so have no idea how well they work, but might be worth a look.
I believe the Rockler and the one from Shop Notes #4 require that one
move the panel for horizontal cuts while the one from Shop Notes #88
has a moving carriage.

The Rockler plans and parts kit can be ordered from
http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?p...er=panel%20saw.

http://books.google.com/books?id=68x...OdnrM#PPT19,M1
has a partial copy of the article in which it was described (at least
I _think_ it's the same tool).

The Shopnotes #4 design can be had from
http://plansnow.com/dn3087.html and the hardware kit from
http://www.woodsmithstore.com/panelsawkit.html

There's a video of the one from Shop Notes 88 in action at
http://www.shopnotes.com/issues/088/...ilt-panel-saw/
but no plans or hardware kit as yet. If you don't have issue 88 you
can get it in bound volume 15 from
http://www.shopnotes.com/issues/volume-15/.



--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Sadly, I had some similar thoughts.

I do volunteer work, where I'll never loan my power tools to anyone
who I haven't developed total respect for their skills and
sensibilities. *I turn down LOTS of requests at jobs to use my tools
to make a quick cut, or drive a few nails...

I'm not even sure I would select a specific panel saw for the school
to buy, or install it. *I would simply point them to a knowledgeable
local dealer, who can sell it and set it up.

While I recognize the truth in what you say, I simply refuse to live
my life that way. Much of the joy I find in life comes from finding
ways to help others. I'm not going to let a few bad apples rob me of
that joy.

In the biblical story of the Good Samaritan, the Priest and the Levite
were doubtless afraid, but they weren't excused by their fear.


DonkeyHody
"Better trust all, and be decieved,
And weep that trust and that decieving,
Than doubt one soul that if believed,
Had blessed one's life with true believing.
Oh in this mocking world too fast
The doubting fiend o'retakes our youth.
Better to be cheated to the last
Than lose the blessed hope of truth.
- Frances Anne Kemble

On Wed, 26 Dec 2007 08:18:53 -0500, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

There are at least three shop made panel saw designs out there, one
from Rockler (which I believe was originally published in Woodworkers'
Journal) and two from Shop Notes, that if labor is free might be
significantly cheaper than the Milwaukee or Trax. I've not used any
of them so have no idea how well they work, but might be worth a look.
I believe the Rockler and the one from Shop Notes #4 require that one
move the panel for horizontal cuts while the one from Shop Notes #88
has a moving carriage.

IIRC, the OP indicated that budget wasn't a problem (wish I were in
that position) so a purchased panel saw is probably where he wants to
go. But I built the SN#4 panel saw and have been extremely pleased
with the results.

It is correct that horizontal cuts require rotating the saw 90 degrees
in the carriage and sliding the panel. As a result, I find myself
using the straight edge/circular saw technique for cuts longer than
4'. I'll have to take a look at the SN#88 version with an idea toward
replacing the SN#4 version.

Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS
USA