When assembling a face frame, which is likely to produce a better fitting,
plumb/flush face frame? The Kreg Jig or a dowel jig? I don't have access
to a planer or a wide body sander, so I won't be able to (easily) fix any
misalignments. BTW, I haven't used either one jig before so the learning
curve should be even.

What say you?

On Thu, 23 Oct 2003 09:22:02 -0500, "Ted" wrote:

When assembling a face frame, which is likely to produce a better fitting,
plumb/flush face frame? The Kreg Jig or a dowel jig? I don't have access
to a planer or a wide body sander, so I won't be able to (easily) fix any
misalignments. BTW, I haven't used either one jig before so the learning
curve should be even.

What say you?


KREG. Clamp the pieces to something flat, drill holes, insert screws.
Use a little glue too. It's quick, strong, and very little
misalignment sneaks in.

I have the simple one hole Kreg jig and have used it to make face frames
quite a few times with perfect results. I haven't done the same with
dowels, but the pocket hole jig is so easy to use I can't imagine that drill
dowel holes will be easier. As long as you align the jig properly and clamp
it in place while drilling, it's pretty foolproof.

Mike

"Ted" wrote in message
...
When assembling a face frame, which is likely to produce a better fitting,
plumb/flush face frame? The Kreg Jig or a dowel jig? I don't have access
to a planer or a wide body sander, so I won't be able to (easily) fix any
misalignments. BTW, I haven't used either one jig before so the learning
curve should be even.

What say you?

"Ted" wrote in message
...
When assembling a face frame, which is likely to produce a better fitting,
plumb/flush face frame? The Kreg Jig or a dowel jig?

Properly done, neither would be better. But IMHO the pocket hole screw
method is much faster and easer to correct if you do assemble the pieces out
of alignment.

That said, drilling holes for dowels must be precise to begin with. With
the pocket hole method the drilling requires you to get the hole "close" to
where you want it. Alignment of the 2 pieces of wood is dependent on
clamping the 2 pieces together so that the faces are on the same plane
before putting in the screw. A hint here, if you use 2 screws in each
joint, put in 1 screw and check the fit on the face side. If it is off,
remove the screw, readjust the wood and put in the other screw this time ad
then check the fit. Put in the other screw if every thing is OK.
While the hand clamp that comew with the Kreg jig is pretty good, Kreg
offers a clamping Plate with swivel clamp. This set up is great for
assuring flush face joints on the good side regaudless of the material
thickness of each piece being joined.



I don't have access
to a planer or a wide body sander, so I won't be able to (easily) fix any
misalignments. BTW, I haven't used either one jig before so the learning
curve should be even.

What say you?

Mike,

How does the one hole version stack up with 3" face frame that needs 2
screws per joint?

"Mike in Mystic" wrote in message
news
I have the simple one hole Kreg jig and have used it to make face frames
quite a few times with perfect results. I haven't done the same with
dowels, but the pocket hole jig is so easy to use I can't imagine that
drill
dowel holes will be easier. As long as you align the jig properly and
clamp
it in place while drilling, it's pretty foolproof.

Mike

"Ted" wrote in message
...
Mike,

How does the one hole version stack up with 3" face frame that needs 2
screws per joint?


I've got the two-hole Rocket jig, but you can easily position the one-hole
Mini Jig to set it to drill another hole. It's just a matter of
convenience. By the way, with regards to your original question, I just
completed my first ever cabinets, and the Kreg pocket hole system made it
easier to align up everything , including flush face frames.

DW

"Ted" wrote in message
...
Mike,

How does the one hole version stack up with 3" face frame that needs 2
screws per joint?


Slower.

Biscuits do a great job too if you happen to have a plate joiner. I bought
mine back when they were fairly new and paid out the whazoo for it but they
are reasonable enough now anyone could afford one. Plus you get a tool that
does SO many other things and has a billion uses around the shop too.

Jim


"Leon" wrote in message
. ..

"Ted" wrote in message
...
When assembling a face frame, which is likely to produce a better
fitting,
plumb/flush face frame? The Kreg Jig or a dowel jig?

Properly done, neither would be better. But IMHO the pocket hole screw
method is much faster and easer to correct if you do assemble the pieces
out
of alignment.

That said, drilling holes for dowels must be precise to begin with. With
the pocket hole method the drilling requires you to get the hole "close"
to
where you want it. Alignment of the 2 pieces of wood is dependent on
clamping the 2 pieces together so that the faces are on the same plane
before putting in the screw. A hint here, if you use 2 screws in each
joint, put in 1 screw and check the fit on the face side. If it is off,
remove the screw, readjust the wood and put in the other screw this time
ad
then check the fit. Put in the other screw if every thing is OK.
While the hand clamp that comew with the Kreg jig is pretty good, Kreg
offers a clamping Plate with swivel clamp. This set up is great for
assuring flush face joints on the good side regaudless of the material
thickness of each piece being joined.



I don't have access
to a planer or a wide body sander, so I won't be able to (easily) fix
any
misalignments. BTW, I haven't used either one jig before so the
learning
curve should be even.

What say you?

"Ted" wrote in message ...
When assembling a face frame, which is likely to produce a better fitting,
plumb/flush face frame? The Kreg Jig or a dowel jig? I don't have access
to a planer or a wide body sander, so I won't be able to (easily) fix any
misalignments. BTW, I haven't used either one jig before so the learning
curve should be even.

What say you?


You got some good answers so far.
I'm going to cast in the estitic concern.
I've used my Kreg many times and I think it works great.
That said, you need to be very selective where you use it.
A few years ago, I built a chest of 7 drawers and used pocket screws for making the dust
frame and the face frame joints. When it was done I thought it looked great. Black
walnut case with Quarter sawn white oak drawer fronts with some cherry inlay.
I then gave it to my mother in law for a Christmas present. Everyone said they loved it.

Later I overheard a brother in law and my father in law discussing it. Seems they were
glad my mother in law didn't know anything about good furniture construction. They were
remarking that no one makes quality furniture with screw joints.

This was a good lesson. The piece was well made and looked good, but people thought less
of it/me because the screws were visible with the drawers out. (If you got on your knees
and stuck your head in with a flashlight) Now I only use them where they cannot ever be
seen and I fill the holes for good measure. Invisible fastening systems or venerable
joints like half blind and through dovetails and box joints and now my rule.

Good luck with you project.
Myx

Yeah you can use a PJ also but you have to clamp the face frame together and
wait for the glue to dry. With pocket holes you glue, put the screws in and
move on. No need to wait for glue to dry.

"Ted" wrote in message ...
Mike,

How does the one hole version stack up with 3" face frame that needs 2
screws per joint?
With the single Kreg you
clamp drill unclamp move clamp drill unclamp
With the double Kreg you
clamp drill drill unclamp. Saves a little time is all.







"Mike in Mystic" wrote in message
news
I have the simple one hole Kreg jig and have used it to make face frames
quite a few times with perfect results. I haven't done the same with
dowels, but the pocket hole jig is so easy to use I can't imagine that
drill
dowel holes will be easier. As long as you align the jig properly and
clamp
it in place while drilling, it's pretty foolproof.

Mike

As the other responders said, the one hole version will take you a lot
longer than the rocket jig, or even the Kreg 2000 (IIRC the name). I was a
cheapskate and just paid my $12 or something to get the one hole version to
see how I liked it. I'll probably get the Kreg 2000 if/when I do another
big cabinet project.


"Ted" wrote in message
...
Mike,

How does the one hole version stack up with 3" face frame that needs 2
screws per joint?

"Mike in Mystic" wrote in message
news
I have the simple one hole Kreg jig and have used it to make face frames
quite a few times with perfect results. I haven't done the same with
dowels, but the pocket hole jig is so easy to use I can't imagine that
drill
dowel holes will be easier. As long as you align the jig properly and
clamp
it in place while drilling, it's pretty foolproof.

Mike

People like that don't have a clue what they're talking about. "Good" and
"Traditional" aren't synonymous. Using pocket screws made for very strong
and sturdy construction. To me that is not just "good" but "great"
furniture construction. Next time, you should still use pocket screws, just
use the pocket hole plugs and don't say anything about it.


"Myxylplyk" wrote in message
hlink.net...

"Ted" wrote in message
...
When assembling a face frame, which is likely to produce a better
fitting,
plumb/flush face frame? The Kreg Jig or a dowel jig? I don't have
access
to a planer or a wide body sander, so I won't be able to (easily) fix
any
misalignments. BTW, I haven't used either one jig before so the
learning
curve should be even.

What say you?


You got some good answers so far.
I'm going to cast in the estitic concern.
I've used my Kreg many times and I think it works great.
That said, you need to be very selective where you use it.
A few years ago, I built a chest of 7 drawers and used pocket screws for
making the dust
frame and the face frame joints. When it was done I thought it looked
great. Black
walnut case with Quarter sawn white oak drawer fronts with some cherry
inlay.
I then gave it to my mother in law for a Christmas present. Everyone said
they loved it.

Later I overheard a brother in law and my father in law discussing it.
Seems they were
glad my mother in law didn't know anything about good furniture
construction. They were
remarking that no one makes quality furniture with screw joints.

This was a good lesson. The piece was well made and looked good, but
people thought less
of it/me because the screws were visible with the drawers out. (If you
got on your knees
and stuck your head in with a flashlight) Now I only use them where they
cannot ever be
seen and I fill the holes for good measure. Invisible fastening systems
or venerable
joints like half blind and through dovetails and box joints and now my
rule.

Good luck with you project.
Myx

"Mike in Mystic" writes:
As the other responders said, the one hole version will take you a lot
longer than the rocket jig, or even the Kreg 2000 (IIRC the name). I was a
cheapskate and just paid my $12 or something to get the one hole version to
see how I liked it. I'll probably get the Kreg 2000 if/when I do another
big cabinet project.

For my current project (shed), I'm using the K2000 "freestyle". The
board is fixed, I clamp the K2000 to it wherever I need a screw.
Faster than clamping the minijig to the board, and it all lines up
automatically.

Obviously, I'm not using the support wings for this ;-)

"Mike in Mystic" wrote in message
news
People like that don't have a clue what they're talking about. "Good" and
"Traditional" aren't synonymous. Using pocket screws made for very strong
and sturdy construction. To me that is not just "good" but "great"
furniture construction. Next time, you should still use pocket screws,
just
use the pocket hole plugs and don't say anything about it.


....or just don't worry about what people say or think and make furniture the
way you know will work and be strong. Pocket holes are the quickest method
I know of this type of assembly and are quite strong.

DW

Cabinet maker 35 years, with our a doubt , the Kreg Jig is the best thing
that's come along in a good while.

Ken



"Ted" wrote in message
...
When assembling a face frame, which is likely to produce a better fitting,
plumb/flush face frame? The Kreg Jig or a dowel jig? I don't have access
to a planer or a wide body sander, so I won't be able to (easily) fix any
misalignments. BTW, I haven't used either one jig before so the learning
curve should be even.

What say you?

Hands down: KREG. I've used it to make close to a hundred face frames for
cabinets just this past year. Most alignment problems can be sidestepped by
doing your assembly on a flat surface, what's left can be fixed with a
cabinet scraper in a few minutes.

Fast, no waiting on glue to dry, and strong. I've got a couple of sample
joints that I didn't ever bother to glue that I invite skeptics to try and
tear apart by hand.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 9/21/03

"Ted" wrote in message
When assembling a face frame, which is likely to produce a better fitting,
plumb/flush face frame? The Kreg Jig or a dowel jig? I don't have access
to a planer or a wide body sander, so I won't be able to (easily) fix any
misalignments. BTW, I haven't used either one jig before so the learning
curve should be even.

How sad they are. Sometimes folks, and "in-laws" in particular, need to be
slapped up side the head with a clue-by-four.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 9/21/03

"Myxylplyk" wrote in message

This was a good lesson. The piece was well made and looked good, but
people thought less
of it/me because the screws were visible with the drawers out. (If you
got on your knees
and stuck your head in with a flashlight) Now I only use them where they
cannot ever be
seen and I fill the holes for good measure. Invisible fastening systems
or venerable
joints like half blind and through dovetails and box joints and now my
rule.

"Swingman" writes:
Fast, no waiting on glue to dry, and strong. I've got a couple of sample
joints that I didn't ever bother to glue that I invite skeptics to try and
tear apart by hand.

I built a pair of kitchen cabinet draws for an upgrade for a friend of
mine. Dovetails, no glue. Still holding! I told them to wait until
it starts falling apart to glue it, but they haven't yet.

Nothing beats well-designed joinery.

Dovetails on face frames? Nothing beats joinery that is appropriate for the
job ... pocket screws and face frames are one of the best matches in
woodworking, IMO.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 9/21/03


"DJ Delorie" wrote in message

"Swingman" writes:

Fast, no waiting on glue to dry, and strong. I've got a couple of sample
joints that I didn't ever bother to glue that I invite skeptics to try
and
tear apart by hand.

I built a pair of kitchen cabinet draws for an upgrade for a friend of
mine. Dovetails, no glue. Still holding! I told them to wait until
it starts falling apart to glue it, but they haven't yet.

Nothing beats well-designed joinery.

Kreg rules!

dave

Ted wrote:

When assembling a face frame, which is likely to produce a better fitting,
plumb/flush face frame? The Kreg Jig or a dowel jig? I don't have access
to a planer or a wide body sander, so I won't be able to (easily) fix any
misalignments. BTW, I haven't used either one jig before so the learning
curve should be even.

What say you?

Ok now be honest all of you pro pocket hole people. How many of those damn
step bits have you broken? If you say none, me and alot of other people here
will know for a fact youre fibbin'!! On the other hand I have yet to ever
break a biscuit! LOL

Jim


"Bay Area Dave" wrote in message
y.com...
Kreg rules!

dave

Ted wrote:

When assembling a face frame, which is likely to produce a better
fitting,
plumb/flush face frame? The Kreg Jig or a dowel jig? I don't have
access
to a planer or a wide body sander, so I won't be able to (easily) fix
any
misalignments. BTW, I haven't used either one jig before so the
learning
curve should be even.

What say you?

"Swingman" writes:
Dovetails on face frames?

I built a pair of kitchen cabinet drawers
^^^^^^^

Ok, there was a typo, but how did you go from "cabinet draws" to "face
frames" ?

The point of the post was to choose joinery that works, not just
joinery that meets some non-functional requirement.

"James D Kountz" writes:
Ok now be honest all of you pro pocket hole people. How many of those damn
step bits have you broken? If you say none, me and alot of other people here
will know for a fact youre fibbin'!!

None, but I've only gone through a thousand holes or so. How do you
manage to break a step bit?

On the other hand I have yet to ever break a biscuit! LOL

I've broken bisquits before, but then, mine fit pretty tight so I have
to hammer them in sometimes.

"DJ Delorie" wrote in message

"Swingman" writes:
Dovetails on face frames?

I built a pair of kitchen cabinet drawers
^^^^^^^

Ok, there was a typo, but how did you go from "cabinet draws" to "face
frames" ?


I looked at, and replied to, the subject line ... up there ^ ... neat
trick, try it sometime. ;)

I don't know, maybe my reader is somehow "misthreaded" ... How did you go
from face frames, with regard to dowels vs Kreg jig, to dovetails and
cabinet drawers?

Damn, this feels like the Twilight Zone? My point, which you originally
quoted, was strictly about the Kreg vs dowels for face frames ... I would be
that last to argue with you about dovetails on drawers.

I'm going back to the shop, turn the lights on, then off, and then come back
in and start over.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 9/21/03


The point of the post was to choose joinery that works, not just
joinery that meets some non-functional requirement.

"Swingman" writes:
I don't know, maybe my reader is somehow "misthreaded" ... How did you go
from face frames, with regard to dowels vs Kreg jig, to dovetails and
cabinet drawers?

I was replying to someone talking about whether to glue or not glue a
kreg joint, in a thread contrasting functional joints with
historically accurate joints.

Ok, it was a bit of a stretch.

"Leon" wrote in message
m...
With pocket holes you glue, put the screws in and
move on. No need to wait for glue to dry.

I agree. I did all my face frames with a plate joiner. Last year I bought
the Kreg Pro and haven't used the plate joiner since.

"James D Kountz" wrote in message
...
Ok now be honest all of you pro pocket hole people. How many of those damn
step bits have you broken? If you say none, me and alot of other people
here
will know for a fact youre fibbin'!! On the other hand I have yet to ever
break a biscuit! LOL

Jim

None, but then again I've only done a few hundred holes with it so far.

PJ

"James D Kountz" wrote in message
...
Ok now be honest all of you pro pocket hole people. How many of those damn
step bits have you broken? If you say none, me and alot of other people
here
will know for a fact youre fibbin'!! On the other hand I have yet to ever
break a biscuit! LOL


Well, the tip of the bit is about 1/2" long and 1/8" in diameter. I do not
recall having ever broken a 1/8" bit. I have 2 Kreg bits. I have a spare
for when the other is being resharpened. I have probably been through 4 or
5 thousand holes and have not broken one yet nor do I baby the bits. Keep
them sharp and you will lessen the likelihood of breaking one.

I've only used 4 or 5 packages of screws, but I've never broken a bit. I've
had a biscuit machine since 1992, but I don't use it much. I use a few
grains of sand and clamping cauls for glue-ups and prefer m&t joints for
other applications. I find pocket screws acceptable for face frames.
"PJ" wrote in message
...
"James D Kountz" wrote in message
...
Ok now be honest all of you pro pocket hole people. How many of those
damn
step bits have you broken? If you say none, me and alot of other people
here
will know for a fact youre fibbin'!! On the other hand I have yet to
ever
break a biscuit! LOL

Jim

None, but then again I've only done a few hundred holes with it so far.

PJ

On 23 Oct 2003, Swingman spake unto rec.woodworking:

Hands down: KREG. I've used it to make close to a hundred face frames
for cabinets just this past year. Most alignment problems can be
sidestepped by doing your assembly on a flat surface, what's left can
be fixed with a cabinet scraper in a few minutes.

Fast, no waiting on glue to dry, and strong. I've got a couple of
sample joints that I didn't ever bother to glue that I invite skeptics
to try and tear apart by hand.



Am I the only one here who makes face frames with half-lap
joints? I don't remember why I do it that way, I think it might have been
an article in a Fine Woodworking from the '80s. At any rate, the half laps
are self-aligning and give lots of surface area for solid gluing. Is this
an unusual method?

I usually make dust frames for cabinet drawers with "half lap" joints and,
now that I think about it, I am wondering why I don't use pocket hole screws
for that task also ... creature of habit, I guess.

Although I've tried it a time or two, I personally have a much easier time
getting M&T joints and/or pocket hole joints for face frames square without
gaps than I do "half lap" joints. But like the above, it is more or less
what you are familiar with and what works for you.

Actually, the joints above are what my grandfather, and an old cabinetmaker
I worked for in England for a short time, called a "halving joint", they
both used what we refer to today as a "half-lap" joint only on end grain.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 9/21/03


"Scott Cramer" wrote in message
On 23 Oct 2003, Swingman spake unto rec.woodworking:

Hands down: KREG. I've used it to make close to a hundred face frames
for cabinets just this past year. Most alignment problems can be
sidestepped by doing your assembly on a flat surface, what's left can
be fixed with a cabinet scraper in a few minutes.

Fast, no waiting on glue to dry, and strong. I've got a couple of
sample joints that I didn't ever bother to glue that I invite skeptics
to try and tear apart by hand.



Am I the only one here who makes face frames with half-lap
joints? I don't remember why I do it that way, I think it might have been
an article in a Fine Woodworking from the '80s. At any rate, the half
laps
are self-aligning and give lots of surface area for solid gluing. Is this
an unusual method?

"Scott Cramer" wrote in message
7.54...

Am I the only one here who makes face frames with half-lap
joints? I don't remember why I do it that way, I think it might have been
an article in a Fine Woodworking from the '80s. At any rate, the half
laps
are self-aligning and give lots of surface area for solid gluing. Is this
an unusual method?

Nooooo this methods is not unusual. I used to build them this way. The
only problem is that you can make no mistakes and easily fix them.

Ok I guess I got a way different bit then. My bit was an 1/8 but it was alot
longer that 1/2 before it stepped up. More like a full inch or so. The
stupid thing would bind in the jig just a slight amount and pop, there it
would go. I threw the thing across the shop and have never looked back at
it. Besides I hate screws and nails in woodworking, only use em when I
absolutely have to. I guess Im old fashioned!

Jim


"Leon" wrote in message
...

"James D Kountz" wrote in message
...
Ok now be honest all of you pro pocket hole people. How many of those
damn
step bits have you broken? If you say none, me and alot of other people
here
will know for a fact youre fibbin'!! On the other hand I have yet to
ever
break a biscuit! LOL


Well, the tip of the bit is about 1/2" long and 1/8" in diameter. I do
not
recall having ever broken a 1/8" bit. I have 2 Kreg bits. I have a spare
for when the other is being resharpened. I have probably been through 4
or
5 thousand holes and have not broken one yet nor do I baby the bits. Keep
them sharp and you will lessen the likelihood of breaking one.

"James D Kountz" wrote in message
...
Ok I guess I got a way different bit then. My bit was an 1/8 but it was
alot
longer that 1/2 before it stepped up. More like a full inch or so. The
stupid thing would bind in the jig just a slight amount and pop, there it
would go. I threw the thing across the shop and have never looked back at
it. Besides I hate screws and nails in woodworking, only use em when I
absolutely have to. I guess Im old fashioned!

Jim


Well for clarification, I just put the caliper on my 2 Kreg HSS bits. The
1/8" tip is 17/32" long. And it really should not be longer as it would
drill too deeply and into the jig providing the larger 3/8" section of the
bit is set correctly to drill deep enough for the screw to enter the other
board.

Did you have one of those 2 piece stepped drill bits where the smaller tip
is adjustable and replaceable?

I could definitely see how a 1" tip extension could give you problems..

"James D Kountz" writes:
Ok I guess I got a way different bit then.

My bit only has a 1/2" tip on it too, but the K2000's depth-setting
jig has enough room for a much longer tip. Maybe they realized it was
a bad idea and switched to a shorter tip?