"Robatoy" wrote in message
oups.com...

Nicely said. The benevolent nature of KBR/Haliburton, Bechtel and such,
really tugs at my heartstrings. The world is a better place since
Cheney left Haliburton and became VP.
The Carlisle Group and their defense portfolio, clearly shows their
effort in promoting peace.
Business has NO influence on politics, war decisions, and polution. Big
business simply does not exist.
For a guy (I am assuming) who has such a wonderful command of the
English language, you sure talk a lot of ****. Eloquent ****, but ****
nevertheless. (I am using a bit of your tactic here, attacking the
person rather than the issues.)

r

You're reply lacks substance. Why don't you just address the points in his
reply.

Robatoy wrote:

Nicely said. The benevolent nature of KBR/Haliburton, Bechtel and
such..... blah, blah, blah.

Nice job snipping away the context of Tim's response. Trying to deflect your
inability to rationally address Tim, you try to insert what you think are
the hot-button rallying cries for the disaffected fringe-left anti-american
rabble. You've managed to created both a straw man AND a red herring. I'll
give you 3.5 points out of 5 on the "Intellectually Impotent, But I'm
Desperately Trying" Kervorkian Scale.

For a guy (I am assuming) who has such a wonderful command of the
English language, you sure talk a lot of ****. Eloquent ****, but ****
nevertheless. (I am using a bit of your tactic here, attacking the
person rather than the issues.)

Make that a solid 4.0. But that's just the first round. We'll combine
scores after your next go-around.

--
Dave
www.davebbq.com

Robatoy wrote:
Tim Daneliuk wrote:
[proganda/drivel snipped]
We don't care what other nations think because we don't have to. When we
have to care, we will. But beware. The general goodwill and kindness
that are the instinct of the American people is stretched pretty thin
right now. After generations of picking up the military and humanitarian
tab for a good part of the rest of the world, we're tired of listening
to foolish, ill-mannered, and ignorant whining like yours. The last
thing most of the rest of the world can afford is for the US to back
away from the world stage and become entirely defensive in its military
and economic posture. But that sentiment is running stronger and
stronger in American culture as people watch their tax dollars evaporate
and the blood of their children spilled only to hear some haughty
European, Canadian, Aussie, or Kiwi lecture us about our bad behaviour.
Be careful what you ask, for you shall surely get it ....

Nicely said. The benevolent nature of KBR/Haliburton, Bechtel and such,
really tugs at my heartstrings. The world is a better place since
Cheney left Haliburton and became VP.
The Carlisle Group and their defense portfolio, clearly shows their
effort in promoting peace.

I wish it were possible to remove the benefit of having these companies
from all but the USA. You'd be squealing a different tune if your
nation actually had to pay for the vast bulk of its defense. Don't
kid yourself, Canada, and for that matter, most of the Anglosphere
enjoys its durable peace and freedom because the US has picked up the
lion's share of the costs. That means US *companies* get the contract
work necessary to do that work. Oh, and by the way, the contract to
Haliburton was let by the *Clinton* (aka gasbag lefties) administration
long before Cheney became VP.

You are also a raging hypocrite. Haliburton has a market capitalization
of about $28 Billion - they are Big Eeeevil Corporation according to
your screwball logic. Home Depot - whose products you proudly buy -
has a market capitalization of about $77 Billion - not quite 3x the
size of Haliburton. Yet HD is *not* Eeeeevil in your book somehow.
One the one hand you implicitly argue that wealth buys power and access.
On the other, you do business with a company with multiples of the
wealth you condemn. Your position is hypocritical, laughable, and childish.


Business has NO influence on politics, war decisions, and polution. Big
business simply does not exist.
For a guy (I am assuming) who has such a wonderful command of the
English language, you sure talk a lot of ****. Eloquent ****, but ****
nevertheless. (I am using a bit of your tactic here, attacking the
person rather than the issues.)

r


I you find my prose hard to understand or the words too big, let me know
and I'll slide down the literacy scale sufficiently to meet you.
You still have not addressed a single point in the post to which
you are responding. Let me summarize:

1) The US debt is significant but not remotely dangerous.
2) Most of the US debt is driven by domestic and international
handouts that should be curtailed immediately.
3) Most of the free world owes its ongoing security to the fact
that the US is willing to become indebted to defend European
and other Anglo interests around the world (not to mention Japan).
4) The Anglosphere and Western Europe are in a death spiral of declining
populations. In Western Europe, the Islamists are already filling in
the gaps.
5) The US does not - at this time - need to care much about what the
rest of the world things because the US is doing most of the heavy
lifting. The Islamification of Europe and the irrelevancy of most
of the rest of the Anglosphere (by sheer lack of population) means
that the US has to act now to be positioned for the world 40 years
from now. Denying Islamist extremists nuclear weapons and a free hand
around the world is one such steps. There are more to follow.

--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Daneliuk
PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/

"Tim Daneliuk" wrote in message
...

1) The US debt is significant but not remotely dangerous.
2) Most of the US debt is driven by domestic and international
handouts that should be curtailed immediately.
3) Most of the free world owes its ongoing security to the fact
that the US is willing to become indebted to defend European
and other Anglo interests around the world (not to mention Japan).
4) The Anglosphere and Western Europe are in a death spiral of declining
populations. In Western Europe, the Islamists are already filling in
the gaps.
5) The US does not - at this time - need to care much about what the
rest of the world things because the US is doing most of the heavy
lifting. The Islamification of Europe and the irrelevancy of most
of the rest of the Anglosphere (by sheer lack of population) means
that the US has to act now to be positioned for the world 40 years
from now. Denying Islamist extremists nuclear weapons and a free hand
around the world is one such steps. There are more to follow.


This is out of his league Tim....

Locutus wrote:

This is out of his league Tim....

Yup. Sandlot pickup vs. the World Series.

--
Dave
www.davebbq.com

GeeDubb wrote:
"boorite" wrote in message
oups.com...
What is all this crap even doing here?


welcome to the wreck......

now if everybody would just ignore everybody else I think we can get some
wood working done.

Looks like they ignored us. That's a start, at least.

Tim Daneliuk wrote:

The US is alone among Western powers with an almost perfect birth
replacement rate. That's because we encourage immigration and, more
importantly, people still really want to come here to live, work, and
raise their families.

You are correct that the birth rate, at least among the native born, is very
close to replacement rate. But immigration and the higher birth rate among
1st generation immigrants (and maybe 2nd and 3rd) are what have caused the
population to double in sixty-some years. Do you consider this a good thing?

Of course it doesn't matter what either of us thinks about it. The population
will continue to grow either by birth or immigration because the Ponzi
economy depends on it. Think how few houses, autos, appliances, etc. we'd
need with a stable population.

--
It's turtles, all the way down

Larry Blanchard wrote:
Tim Daneliuk wrote:

The US is alone among Western powers with an almost perfect birth
replacement rate. That's because we encourage immigration and, more
importantly, people still really want to come here to live, work, and
raise their families.

You are correct that the birth rate, at least among the native born, is very
close to replacement rate. But immigration and the higher birth rate among
1st generation immigrants (and maybe 2nd and 3rd) are what have caused the
population to double in sixty-some years. Do you consider this a good thing?

For the moment, yes. A nation's wealth (and thus power/influence) is
driven primarily by its per capita productivity. Immigration is part
(but not remotely all) of the equation to maintaining and growing
productivity. Given that the US will end up being the only significant
Western democracy on the planet in less than a half century (assuming
nothing changes in the Western/Anglo birth rates around the world in the
mean time), we need as many American citizens as possible. But "American
citizen" presumes these new emigre's will follow the path of their
predecessors - they must *assimilate* American ideals, values, and, yes,
language. Thanks to the usual Drooling Idiots, we now see a profoundly
dangerous movement to encourage immigration and *discourage*
assimilation. That could well be a death sentence for American ideals
wherein the US becomes just as balkanized and unable to speak with one
voice (literally) as is the case in Western Europe today.



Of course it doesn't matter what either of us thinks about it. The population
will continue to grow either by birth or immigration because the Ponzi
economy depends on it. Think how few houses, autos, appliances, etc. we'd
need with a stable population.


Your understanding of "economy" is fundamentally broken. It is not a
"Ponzi" scheme of any sort. The "economy" is one measure of national
wealth. And "wealth" grows in proportion to national *productivity* not
on based on the number of toasters and Big Macs that get sold. If this
were not so, nations will little or no natural resources and/or goods
to sell would all be poor. Take even a casual look at Hong Kong,
Singapore, or Japan for some fairly compelling counterexamples. For
a more academic treatise on the matter, you might want to read the
source: Adam Smith's "Wealth Of Nations" and, in particular, his
"Pin Factory" example. He wrote with tremendous insight in the 18th
century. Too bad the modern so-called educated Westerner can't be
bothered to take the time to understand what he wrote.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Daneliuk
PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/

The Locustus, Bugg and Daneliuk mutual admiration society has
deteriorated into a circle-jerk.

Listen up, O'Reilley fans, try to do some research beyond your
emotional desire to be 'right'.

Go get your daily infusion of fair and balanced news from Fox, keeping
your heads firmly planted up your asses.
For those American friends who wonder what went wrong with your
country.. here's an example.

You just can't teach arrogant people anything.

....btw, did you guys see the tag below the image of FagBoy Foley on
FoxTV?
This is what it read:
Foley (D-FL)....lol..I guess they figured if he was gay, he'd have to
be a democrat.

See what I mean about the mindset of blind faith?

r

Robatoy wrote:

The Locustus, Bugg and Daneliuk mutual....

A mind is a terrible thing to waste.

--
Dave
www.davebbq.com

"Robatoy" wrote in message
ups.com...
The Locustus, Bugg and Daneliuk mutual admiration society has
deteriorated into a circle-jerk.

Listen up, O'Reilley fans, try to do some research beyond your
emotional desire to be 'right'.

And yet you provide neither fact nor insight

Go get your daily infusion of fair and balanced news from Fox, keeping
your heads firmly planted up your asses.

Were you part of the group that kept Fox news out of Canada for quite some
time?...... fear does strange things.

For those American friends who wonder what went wrong with your
country.. here's an example.

You just can't teach arrogant people anything.

...btw, did you guys see the tag below the image of FagBoy Foley on
FoxTV?
This is what it read:
Foley (D-FL)....lol..I guess they figured if he was gay, he'd have to
be a democrat.

See what I mean about the mindset of blind faith?

r

I suppose it takes a true believer to read "something" into a simple
typo......Do you perchance listen to Air America? Your empty tirades, rants
and factless drivel indeed sound like their bankrupt programming. Rod

Rod & Betty Jo wrote:


I suppose it takes a true believer to read "something" into a simple
typo......

Simple typo? My ass. Three times they ran that 'typo'. But, Rod, if you
want to buy into Fox's ****, go for it!

Do you perchance listen to Air America?

Nope, can't stand their pinko bull****. I have a problem with
bull****...from the right or from the left.
That pudge, Gore, looks like he's been eating too much of Bugg's BBQ
Lardburgers... and that Kerry would have REALLY screwed things up in
Eyerack.

Your empty tirades, rants
and factless drivel indeed sound like their bankrupt programming.

Okay... I'll bite...what factless drivel?

I get it...you feel left out.. you want to be in Circle Jerk
too....okay..I'll ask.

Ya got a gunrack in that Chevette?

r

"Dave Bugg" wrote in message
A mind is a terrible thing to waste.

Then we all feel terribly sorry for you.

On Tue, 3 Oct 2006 13:52:52 -0400, "Locutus"
wrote:


"Michael Daly" wrote in message
. ..
Doug Miller wrote:

Get a grip. Do you have *any* idea at all what went on in Iraq under
Saddam Hussein?

Torture is torture. Once you throw out the Geneva convention, you have
lost any moral authority and you are no better than the scum you're
combating. If you cease to remain civilized, the terrorists have won.

Maybe you should get a grip and realize just how much damage has been done
to America's reputation in the world.

Mike

ahh... another Canadian. Not suprised.

Do you realize what YOUR reputation is in the world?

Cleanliness, friendliness and high-quality manufactured goods? I
don't recall hearing much else about Canada from any quarter. Nice
quiet neighbor to the North, AFAIC.

"Robatoy" wrote in message
ps.com...

Rod & Betty Jo wrote:
I suppose it takes a true believer to read "something" into a simple
typo......

Simple typo? My ass. Three times they ran that 'typo'. But, Rod, if you
want to buy into Fox's ****, go for it!

Since its a little more than obvious that no mater how many times they said
he was a Dem it would and could never stick....and in fact any perceived
albeit remote benefit would be far less than the credibility harm to their
reputation for a rather known fact that he was not a Dem......thus with no
benefit and some harm.... why would it be anything more than a typo?

Do you perchance listen to Air America?

Nope, can't stand their pinko bull****. I have a problem with
bull****...from the right or from the left.
That pudge, Gore, looks like he's been eating too much of Bugg's BBQ
Lardburgers... and that Kerry would have REALLY screwed things up in
Eyerack.

Cool.... at least your a equal opportunity America basher....although it
does beg the question as to the why?

Your empty tirades, rants
and factless drivel indeed sound like their bankrupt programming.

Okay... I'll bite...what factless drivel?

Your recent posts here......I didn't notice any reasoned rational
discourse...Did I miss something?

I get it...you feel left out.. you want to be in Circle Jerk
too....okay..I'll ask.

Ya got a gunrack in that Chevette?
r

Its a Dodge van without a gun rack although it does have a ladder rack.....I
do have a Cannuck for a sister though but she doesn't have a gun rack
either.....Rod

Rod & Betty Jo wrote:
[snipped for brevity]

..and in fact any perceived
albeit remote benefit would be far less than the credibility harm to their
reputation for a rather known fact that he was not a Dem......thus with no
benefit and some harm.... why would it be anything more than a typo?

That is so naive. Fox's reputation is already such that it is clear it
wasn't a typo.

Cool.... at least your a equal opportunity America basher....although it
does beg the question as to the why?

I'm not an America basher at all. The fact that I think Mike Tyson is a
scumbag makes me racist?
That I think the current administartion in Israel are 'less than kind'
to the Palestinians make me anti-semetic? Where do you get that I am
anti-American? My sister and her husband (airforce .ret.) and my nieces
and nephew are all Americans. The minister who married my wife & I was
'imported' from Illinois.(A marine too, btw.) The best man is an
American from Florida. I live 5 minutes from Port Huron MI and have a
lot of American clients...and yes, *gasp* American friends. Most think
the neocons are assholes. Most think, as I do, that there should have
been 300,000 soldiers instead of Rummy's 150,000 (purely designed for
the war to drag on..oops Mission accomplished...sorry forgot.)

I can't help that the motive for invading Afghanistan and Iraq is that
transparent. I was born with my eyes open. You?


Your recent posts here......I didn't notice any reasoned rational
discourse...Did I miss something?

I'll say you did.



Its a Dodge van without a gun rack although it does have a ladder rack.....I
do have a Cannuck for a sister though but she doesn't have a gun rack
either.....Rod

I have a Dodge van. With an A-frame inside to transport the solid
surface countertops I fabricate.
My sister lives in Olatha KS... no gun racks... Rob

Leon wrote:
"Michael Daly" wrote in message
...


Torture is torture. Once you throw out the Geneva convention, you have
lost any moral authority and you are no better than the scum you're
combating. If you cease to remain civilized, the terrorists have won.


So shooting them is OK?
We should do to others as others have done to us. We can crawl into the
cutter with them if that is what it takes to win the war. If the enemy does
not follow the rules and we do, we cannot win.
War is war.

War is war, I agree.
A few years back, a few Americans were kidnapped in Lebanon and held
as hostages. The Americans went into 'negotiations-mode'. A few days
later, a couple of Russians were kidnapped with the result that the
brothers of the kidnappers were shot and dropped off in front of the
house where they lived. The Russian hostages were set free immediatly.
It showed resolve and good intelligence.
Put another way: "You can't bring a knife to a gun fight." (Daneliuk
will likely misconstrue this as my liking the Russians more than the
Americans, so be it.)

When they found Hussein, there should have been a picture, similar to
the execution of the Saigon police chief.

What is up for debate is the reason for this war.
One does fight fire by removing fuel, heat or oxygen.

Dave Bugg wrote:


The Canadian reputation stands.

So do crusty, brown-stained shorts.



You're the expert!

Try using a toilet.

r

Richard Clements wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
In article . com, "Robatoy" wrote:
I am sorry. This may not have been the platform to point out that
****wit Bush is the dirtiest/nastiest piece of **** to wander the face
of the planet....but I digress.

Oh, really? You honestly think he's worse than Saddam Hussein, Bashir Assad,
Mahmoud Achmedinajad, Osama bin Laden, or Fidel Castro?
He truly is a Christian man without fault?

AFAIK, he has never claimed to be without fault.

[remaining garbage snipped]

Some apology.

http://www.amishrakefight.org/gfy

Doug why do you even justify responding? if you read the history of his
posts he is and has always been a crack pot, and more than likely
smoking a crack pipe.

"A great man inspires others to greatness,
a little man complains about it."
--unknown

politics aside

there seems to be several types of people on the wreck there are those
that help and give real advice, those that are here to learn that they
might help some day, and leaches, they take with out any real useful
contribution and are border line trolls

looking at past posts Doug Miller has done more then his fair share help
good, I've yet to see anything real useful from robatoy

now quit your bitching and get back to work, that sawdust isn't going to
make it's self

lemme see..... communications major, right?

Rod & Betty Jo wrote:

Cool.... at least your a equal opportunity America basher....although it
does beg the question as to the why?

There is a wee bit of difference between bashing America, and bashing its
government. But the Faux News followers will never see the difference :-).

--
It's turtles, all the way down

Robatoy wrote:

Try using a toilet.

Spoken by someone so full of unintelligible crap that it just oozes from
every brain cell.
--
Dave
www.davebbq.com

Upscale wrote:

Then we all feel terribly sorry for you.

Why? Did you transmit some sort of disease while we were communicating?

--
Dave
www.davebbq.com

Robatoy wrote:

That is so naive. Fox's reputation is already such that it is clear it
wasn't a typo.

Sure it is. Just keep saying that to yourself. I love conspiracies.

and nephew are all Americans. The minister who married my wife & I was
'imported' from Illinois.(A marine too, btw.)

Snip all the "My best friend is black" hand-wringing.

I can't help that the motive for invading Afghanistan and Iraq is that
transparent.

snork The conspiracy fairy has been good to you.


--
Dave
www.davebbq.com

Larry Blanchard wrote:

There is a wee bit of difference between bashing America, and bashing
its government.

That point may have merit, Larry, except for the fact that, regardless of
who's in office, a large percentage of Americans support that government.
Therefore the bashing is often personalized and directed at those who are in
support as well.

But the Faux News followers will never see the
difference :-).

Dontcha think that remark may be a bit too dismissive? If I have time, I
will watch bits of MSNBC, FOX, CNN, CNBC, CSPAN,and PBS. I also will read
the Wall Street Journal, The Washington Post, The NY Times, Time, Newsweek
and a coupla on-line blogs and news sources. Yet I'm sure, given the
polarized nature of the thread, you would put me into "Faux News" group.

I would almost bet that you meant the remark as just a good-natured jab in
the ribs; there are those thread contributors however, who laughingly
believe denigrating a percieved news source scores serious rhetorical
points.
--
Dave
www.davebbq.com

Dave Bugg wrote:
Robatoy wrote:

Try using a toilet.

Spoken by someone so full of unintelligible crap that it just oozes from
every brain cell.

Is that really the best you can do, Farktard?
You have clearly lost this battle of wits, bro'.
..
..
Pityful.

r

Robatoy wrote:

Is that really the best you can do, Farktard?

No, but you've not demonstrated the any worth worthy of wasting too much
time.

You have clearly lost this battle of wits, bro'.

Sure I have. Keep saying that over and over: "I'm the winner, I'm the
winner, I'm the....".

--
Dave
www.davebbq.com

Dave Bugg wrote:
Robatoy wrote:

Is that really the best you can do, Farktard?

No, but you've not demonstrated the any worth worthy of wasting too much
time.

You have clearly lost this battle of wits, bro'.

Sure I have.

Yup, sure have.

r

..wellllll..would you look at the time. No more talkies with Mr.
Bugg...I'm starting feel all greasy.
Oh, and Mr. Bugg...don't blow any valves, okay?

Robatoy wrote:

Yup, sure have.

Good boy, you're taking my advice repeating "I am the winner". I'm sure
you'll feel better soon.

.wellllll..would you look at the time. No more talkies with Mr.
Bugg...

Don't forget to keep repeating, "I am the winner", it'll help that
self-esteem problem.

--
Dave
www.davebbq.com

Get over it, Roboytoy. Monica beat you to it.

Michael Daly wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:

Oh, really? You honestly think he's worse than Saddam Hussein

Given his attitude towards torture, I'd say they're about the same.


No, keep in mind that under Bush the definition of torture was
restricted
to those which left physical evidence on the bodies of the victims.

Saddam Hussein was much more 'liberal' in his outlook, I daresay.

Seriously, there is no question that GWB is a better man than Castro,
Hussein, bin Laden, Hitler etc. Our government is better than the
fascists, nazis, etc. Out military does a better job of prosecuting
crimes against humanity than did the SS, or the Soviet Red Army.

For some of us, being better than the worse that humanity has had
to offer is not good enough. Some of us want the best for our
country.

--

FF

wrote:

For some of us, being better than the worse that humanity has had
to offer is not good enough. Some of us want the best for our
country.

True; but I would hope that instead of some, it would be most :-)

--
Dave
www.davebbq.com

Rod & Betty Jo wrote:
"Michael Daly" wrote in message
...
Doug Miller wrote:

Oh, really? You honestly think he's worse than Saddam Hussein

Given his attitude towards torture, I'd say they're about the same.

Mike

Is there some code or rule someplace that requires anti-Bush tirades to be
ignorant and stupid? To compare any approved Bush "torture" of which
includes sleep deprivation, cold rooms , loud music, maybe water boarding
(harmless but scary)....

Dilawar's hands were cuffed behind his back and chained to the ceiling.
his feet were shackeled to the floor. He was struck in the legs until
the
muscles were pulverized, damaged beyond recovery. His shoulders were
dislocated. He was denied food and water. After four days he died,
still hanging from the ceiling.

At his trial, Willie Brand described DIlawar's treatment as
"sleep deprivation."

Yes, OP's tirade was ignorant and stupid. So was your reply.

--

FF

Leon wrote:
"Robatoy" wrote in message
ups.com...
I am sorry. This may not have been the platform to point out that
****wit Bush is the dirtiest/nastiest piece of **** to wander the face
of the planet....but I digress.

He truly is a Christian man without fault?

I would wash his feet.

After that, I would look him in the eye.

Then I would rebuke him.

He would crumble upon the weight.

I would dust off my shoes and go looking for Cheney.

r


At least Bush has balls, and conviction. In this day in age that kind of
person is hard to find. Unfortunately many find this type personality kind
of harsh as they have been brought up in a society that has learned to
accept no back bone spineless politicians as the norm.

Quite the opposite.

Faced with a tough task and the tools to do it, he cut and ran
from the time honored principles and procedures of the US
Military and US Justice system, the Constitution and our
treaty obligations.

Less than two months after September 11, he proposed courts
that were without competent juristidiction and rules of evidence
thet condoned and encouraged torture. He never even tried to
use the tried and true existing system of courts-marital and
the established regulations for handling captives.

Any politician can stand up for priciple and respect for the rule
of law when danger is passed. It takes courage and conviction
to stand up for those priciples in time of crisis. Bush never even
tried.

--

FF

wrote in message
oups.com...

Rod & Betty Jo wrote:
"Michael Daly" wrote in message
...
Doug Miller wrote:

Oh, really? You honestly think he's worse than Saddam Hussein

Given his attitude towards torture, I'd say they're about the same.

Mike

Is there some code or rule someplace that requires anti-Bush tirades to
be
ignorant and stupid? To compare any approved Bush "torture" of which
includes sleep deprivation, cold rooms , loud music, maybe water boarding
(harmless but scary)....

Dilawar's hands were cuffed behind his back and chained to the ceiling.
his feet were shackeled to the floor. He was struck in the legs until
the
muscles were pulverized, damaged beyond recovery. His shoulders were
dislocated. He was denied food and water. After four days he died,
still hanging from the ceiling.

At his trial, Willie Brand described DIlawar's treatment as
"sleep deprivation."

Yes, OP's tirade was ignorant and stupid. So was your reply.

--

FF


Source?

Doug Miller wrote:
In article , wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:

Get a grip. Do you have *any* idea at all what went on in Iraq under Saddam
Hussein?

Torture is torture.

Oh, really? So you're equating sleep deprivation with rape and murder?

Once you throw out the Geneva convention, you have lost any
moral authority and you are no better than the scum you're combating. If you
cease to remain civilized, the terrorists have won.

Terrorists aren't covered by the Geneva Convention, which sets forth specific
conditions that must be met in order to be covered. Armed men captured on the
field of battle while wearing neither military uniform nor insignia don't meet
those conditions.

That's a damn lie. Someone who has been captured by persons
other than his own countrymen becomes a protected person.
That a protected person can be tried and punished for crimes
comitted prior to capture, such as fighting in civilian disguise,
does not change the fact that the person is protected.

It doesn't make any difference if the captive is a spy, sabotuer,
'terrorist', your grandmother or the worst war criminal since
Joseph Mengele. Once captured, he is a protected person.
The Geneva Conventions are not a license to commit attrocities.

From the Fourth Protocol, 1949:

Art. 4. Persons protected by the Convention are those who,
at a given moment and in any manner whatsoever, find themselves,
in case of a conflict or occupation, in the hands of a Party to
the conflict or Occupying Power of which they are not nationals.


Note, "The Convention" refers to the 1949 convention, collectively,
not to any one specific protocol of the convention. The only exception
is for one's own nationals.

Further, under the 1949 GCs and under the US Constitution the
President and Commander in Chief has no authority to decide
which of the protocols is applicable to any particular person.

Now, as to the question that was posed, there is no doubt that
we are much better off in America with Geroge W Bush as our
President than Iraqis were in Iraq with Saddam Hussein as their
president.

But that's the wrong question to ask, isn't it?

--

FF

Leon wrote:
"Michael Daly" wrote in message
...


Torture is torture. Once you throw out the Geneva convention, you have
lost any moral authority and you are no better than the scum you're
combating. If you cease to remain civilized, the terrorists have won.


So shooting them is OK?

Depending on whom you mean by "them", in battle, sure. Shooting
them is OK, same as shooting uniformed soldiers. If they surrender
or are captured alive, they become protected persons. It's still OK
to shoot them, or to execute them in any other 'humane' way, so
long as they have been duly convicted of capital offenses.

We should do to others as others have done to us. We can crawl into the
cutter with them if that is what it takes to win the war. If the enemy does
not follow the rules and we do, we cannot win.

False. Not only can we win without abandoning our principles, we
cannot win if we do.

Abandonment of our principles is suicide.

--

FF

In article .com, wrote:

Doug Miller wrote:
In article ,
wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:

Get a grip. Do you have *any* idea at all what went on in Iraq under
Saddam
Hussein?

Torture is torture.

Oh, really? So you're equating sleep deprivation with rape and murder?

Once you throw out the Geneva convention, you have lost any
moral authority and you are no better than the scum you're combating. If
you
cease to remain civilized, the terrorists have won.

Terrorists aren't covered by the Geneva Convention, which sets forth specific
conditions that must be met in order to be covered. Armed men captured on the
field of battle while wearing neither military uniform nor insignia don't
meet
those conditions.

That's a damn lie.

No, Fred, it's the truth.

Someone who has been captured by persons
other than his own countrymen becomes a protected person.
That a protected person can be tried and punished for crimes
comitted prior to capture, such as fighting in civilian disguise,
does not change the fact that the person is protected.

Wrong. Fighting in civilian disguise changes everything.

It doesn't make any difference if the captive is a spy, sabotuer,
'terrorist', your grandmother or the worst war criminal since
Joseph Mengele. Once captured, he is a protected person.

That simply is not true.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Dave Bugg wrote:
RogerD wrote:

So did Hitler.

Really!?? How much cajones does it really take to round up the helpless and
gas 'em? Or attack the French?

He also invaded the Soviet Union while still at war with the Allies,
and declared war on the US.

Maybe not his best decisions, but bold ones.

--

FF

wrote:
SNIP
From the Fourth Protocol, 1949:

Art. 4. Persons protected by the Convention are those who,
at a given moment and in any manner whatsoever, find themselves,
in case of a conflict or occupation, in the hands of a Party to
the conflict or Occupying Power of which they are not nationals.


Sorry Sparky, the 4th Protocol is specifically authored for *civilians*.
A person engaging in combat while dressed in civilian garb - i.e., No
distinguishable uniform is NO LONGER A CIVILIAN, and thus not protected
by this Geneva agreement. That's why we can legally hang spies, incarcerate
them without normal due process, and generally do (almost) anything
we want to them. The Geneva conventions (last I read them - perhaps
Barbara Streisand or Rosie O'Donnell have updated them with their
considerable intellectual abilities) make a clear distinction between
combatants/non-combatants/civilians. Too bad all the Lefties today
can't do the same thing ...
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Daneliuk
PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/

Michael Daly wrote:
dadiOH wrote:
Locutus wrote:

ahh... another Canadian. Not suprised.

Do you realize what YOUR reputation is in the world?

Possibly that they managed to free some American prisoners while Jimmy
Carter hemmed and hawed for more than a year?

Or that the took over command under NATO in Afghanistan when the US wanted to
free troops for Iraq?

Or that their navy patrolled the Persian Gulf protecting US ships in the lead-in
to the Iraq invasion?

Or that they are the only country on the planet to have contributed troops to
_every_ UN peacekeeping mission since the UN came into being?

Or that they fought in _all_ years of both WWI and WWII? And were the first to
win a major victory against the Germans in WWI while the yanks were still hiding
at home?

The Canadians also took in men, women and children fleeing slavery
in the US, draft resisters and deserters during the Vietnam war, and
helped keep us supplied with booze during Prohibition.

--

FF