"RogerD" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 03 Oct 2006 12:53:21 GMT, "Leon"
wrote:

At least Bush has balls, and conviction.


So did Hitler.

So did T. Roosevelt

"Leon" wrote in message
m...

"Michael Daly" wrote in message
...


Torture is torture. Once you throw out the Geneva convention, you have
lost any moral authority and you are no better than the scum you're
combating. If you cease to remain civilized, the terrorists have won.


So shooting them is OK?
We should do to others as others have done to us. We can crawl into the
cutter with them if that is what it takes to win the war. If the enemy
does not follow the rules and we do, we cannot win.
War is war.


Well said. You know what they say, all is fair in love and ......

RogerD wrote:

So did Hitler.

Really!?? How much cajones does it really take to round up the helpless and
gas 'em? Or attack the French?
--
Dave
www.davebbq.com

What is all this crap even doing here?

dadiOH wrote:
Locutus wrote:

ahh... another Canadian. Not suprised.

Do you realize what YOUR reputation is in the world?

Possibly that they managed to free some American prisoners while Jimmy
Carter hemmed and hawed for more than a year?

Or that the took over command under NATO in Afghanistan when the US wanted to
free troops for Iraq?

Or that their navy patrolled the Persian Gulf protecting US ships in the lead-in
to the Iraq invasion?

Or that they are the only country on the planet to have contributed troops to
_every_ UN peacekeeping mission since the UN came into being?

Or that they fought in _all_ years of both WWI and WWII? And were the first to
win a major victory against the Germans in WWI while the yanks were still hiding
at home?

The Canadian reputation stands. The US reputation is sinking.

Mike

Doug Miller wrote:

Oh, really? So you're equating sleep deprivation with rape and murder?

What part of "torture is torture" is so hard to understand. You're either
civilized or your not. I guess you've made your choice.

Terrorists aren't covered by the Geneva Convention, which sets forth specific
conditions that must be met in order to be covered. Armed men captured on the
field of battle while wearing neither military uniform nor insignia don't meet
those conditions.

According to your own Supreme Court, that's not true.

I notice you snipped my question: Do you really think that life in Iraq under
Saddam Hussein was comparable to life in the U.S. under George W. Bush?

Ask the Iraqis. A clear majority hate the Americans and want them to leave.
They consider their life worse than before.

Mike

Locutus wrote:

Maybe you should get a grip and realize that most Americans don't give a
flying **** what the rest of the world thinks.

Exactly what's wrong with the yanks today.

You represent less than 5% of the world's population and your share is
shrinking. You are in debt to your eyeballs and the subsidy of US debt by
countries like China and India is considered the "greatest foreign aid program
in history" (The Economist, Sept 16, 2006). You refuse to honour trade deals
and international law. Your reputation is everything and in this world and you
don't give a damn about it.

Your loss. I hope your kids and grandkids will forgive you.

Mike

"Michael Daly" wrote in message
...

The Canadian reputation stands.

Yes it does. The reputation that Canada is a country that depends on the US
for it's economic existence and protection is standing quite strong.
Congrats.

On Tue, 3 Oct 2006 13:34:52 -0700, "Dave Bugg"
wrote:

RogerD wrote:

So did Hitler.

Really!?? How much cajones does it really take to round up the helpless and
gas 'em? Or attack the French?

About as much as it took to bomb Iraq civilians.

RogerD wrote:

About as much as it took to bomb Iraq civilians.

The only ones to purposefully bomb Iraqi civilians are the Iranian-sponsored
insurgents.

--
Dave
www.davebbq.com

Michael Daly wrote:

What part of "torture is torture" is so hard to understand. You're
either civilized or your not. I guess you've made your choice.

What part of redefining torture to equate sleep deprivation with severe
physical mutilation or injury is so hard for YOU to understand. Harsh
interrogation is NOT torture.

According to your own Supreme Court, that's not true.

According to the articles contained within the Conventions themselves, it IS
true. Oh, and before you embarrass yourself further, you'd better read the
entire opinion so you know what the Supreme Court really ruled. Quit relying
on the popular liberal media.

Ask the Iraqis. A clear majority hate the Americans and want them to
leave. They consider their life worse than before.

Not really.

--
Dave
www.davebbq.com

"boorite" wrote in message
oups.com...
What is all this crap even doing here?


welcome to the wreck......

now if everybody would just ignore everybody else I think we can get some
wood working done.

Gary

From what has crawled out from under them, it would appear Canadian
rocks are the same as any other.

Michael Daly wrote:

Or that the took over command under NATO in Afghanistan when the US
wanted to free troops for Iraq?

Nato command responsibilities are ALWAYS shared or rotated. Same thing
happened in Bosnia. American troop movements have nothing to do with it.

Or that their navy patrolled the Persian Gulf protecting US ships in
the lead-in to the Iraq invasion?

Whoppie-do. Token presence. Believe it or not, your "contribution" was not
needed.

Or that they are the only country on the planet to have contributed
troops to _every_ UN peacekeeping mission since the UN came into
being?

So YOU were the ones that let the Hez-******** build-up their presence in
Lebanon and attack Israel. Way to go.

Or that they fought in _all_ years of both WWI and WWII? And were
the first to win a major victory against the Germans in WWI while the
yanks were still hiding at home?

Aren't y'all "part" of the British Empire? Why would America immediately get
into a war that didn't affect its own interests. BTW, if American industrial
might didn't supply Britain during it's early fight with Hitler, Britain
wouldn't be speaking English as its first language.

The Canadian reputation stands.

So do crusty, brown-stained shorts.

--
Dave
www.davebbq.com

"Dave Bugg" wrote in message

What part of redefining torture to equate sleep deprivation with severe
physical mutilation or injury is so hard for YOU to understand. Harsh
interrogation is NOT torture.

You're not too bright are you? Isn't it the opinion of the one who is being
interrogated? And in case you're not aware, sleep deprivation *can* have
severe, long term effects, some more effecting than your opinion of torture
is. Prolonged sleep deprivation can lead to death. How in your wildest
imagination can you dismiss that as not being a form of torture?

Ask the Iraqis. A clear majority hate the Americans and want them to
leave. They consider their life worse than before.

Not really.

And you'd know right? You've lived there and can testify first hand what
it's like? And don't even think of trying to say something like you've
fought there or have heard first hand experience, because even foreign
soldiers, assuming they get through the ordeal, have a safe, supporting
country to come home to after it's over.

In article , wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:

Oh, really? So you're equating sleep deprivation with rape and murder?

What part of "torture is torture" is so hard to understand. You're either
civilized or your not. I guess you've made your choice.

I don't have any trouble telling the difference between sleep deprivation, and
murder. I'm sorry you do.

Terrorists aren't covered by the Geneva Convention, which sets forth specific
conditions that must be met in order to be covered. Armed men captured on the
field of battle while wearing neither military uniform nor insignia don't meet
those conditions.

According to your own Supreme Court, that's not true.

Perhaps you'd like to read the actual decision he
http://www.supremecourtus.gov/opinions/05pdf/05-184.pdf
and see for yourself that it does *not* say what you think it does.
..

I notice you snipped my question: Do you really think that life in Iraq under
Saddam Hussein was comparable to life in the U.S. under George W. Bush?

Ask the Iraqis.

How would the Iraqis know what it's like in the U.S.?

I notice you dodged the question *again*: do you *really* think that life in
Iraq under Saddam Hussein was comparable to life in the U.S. under George W.
Bush?

A clear majority hate the Americans and want them to leave.
They consider their life worse than before.

Cite, please?

I'm not going to hold my breath waiting...

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Upscale wrote:

You're not too bright are you?

Since you're wearing blinders, I would guess that I'm bright enough to
require you to cover your eyes, bubba.

Isn't it the opinion of the one who is
being interrogated?

Uh, no.

And in case you're not aware, sleep deprivation
*can* have severe, long term effects, some more effecting than your
opinion of torture is.

Uh, no.

Prolonged sleep deprivation can lead to death.
How in your wildest imagination can you dismiss that as not being a
form of torture?

'Cause hyperbole is easy to dismiss.

And you'd know right? You've lived there and can testify first hand
what it's like?

And you've lived and can testify first hand that the majority of Iraqis hate
Americans, or that they consider themselves better of under Saddam, right?

And don't even think of trying to say something like
you've fought there or have heard first hand experience, because even
foreign soldiers, assuming they get through the ordeal, have a safe,
supporting country to come home to after it's over.

Don't say it or .... what? You'll keep ****ing on yerself? What a moron.

--
Dave
www.davebbq.com

"Dave Bugg" wrote in message
Prolonged sleep deprivation can lead to death.
How in your wildest imagination can you dismiss that as not being a
form of torture?

'Cause hyperbole is easy to dismiss.

It's really quite amazing how someone like you with a little bit of
knowledge is truly dangerous. Try doing some reading for once in your life
besides posting outlandish opinions.
http://sleepdisorders.about.com/cs/s...pandhealth.htm

Upscale wrote:

It's really quite amazing how someone like you with a little bit of
knowledge is truly dangerous.

And it's amazing how someone with access to Google and NO knowledge is able
to underscore their stupidity.

Try doing some reading for once in your
life besides posting outlandish opinions.
http://sleepdisorders.about.com/cs/s...pandhealth.htm

Snork Try to learn the difference between sleep disorders in individuals
(along with the potential for traffic accidents and injuries from working
while sleepy), and sleep deprivation used as part of interrogation. What a
moron.

--
Dave
www.davebbq.com

Robatoy wrote:
wrote:
Robatoy wrote:
I am sorry. This may not have been the platform to point out that
****wit Bush is the dirtiest/nastiest piece of **** to wander the face
of the planet....but I digress.

After reading this... well... I don't think you are sorry at all. I am
detecting a whiff of insincererity, I do believe. *snort*

The subject matter aside, I must say that I am not accustomed to that
level of inarticulate profanity from you. You usually express yourself
so well.

But for those that want to take a look at someone that isn't afraid to
talk about some real balls:

You are right, Robert. I'm not myself these days. Maybe because I lost
my composure during the Emmies. I am so peeved at the 'so-what' stance
of my fellow warriors, that I may be expressing my disgust a little too
forcefully. This, actually IS an apology.
Your sense of whiffness was acute. Meanwhile

I remain,
sincerely yours,

Rob, it did come across as a regular wigging out. I'm not sure if
venting made you feel better, but the net effect (pun intended) is
detrimental to the group and serves no purpose. Strong opinions on
important matters require a different forum for your voice to be heard
and count for something. Otherwise it's no different than an XboX vs.
PS3 flame war.

R

"Dave Bugg" wrote in message

Snork Try to learn the difference between sleep disorders in
individuals
(along with the potential for traffic accidents and injuries from working
while sleepy), and sleep deprivation used as part of interrogation. What
a
moron.

Actually, a moron in this case is defined by your obsession with displaying
your lack of knowledge. It seems *all* you're capable of doing is jerking
off at the sight of your online posts.

Bye now. There's no sense with continuing this discussion since you continue
to fail in your attempts to have anything worthwhile to say, or contribute.

Upscale wrote:

Actually, a moron in this case is defined by your obsession with
displaying your lack of knowledge. It seems *all* you're capable of
doing is jerking off at the sight of your online posts.

A moron is defined by the obssesive compulsion to hump a leg, just the way
you do whenever you see my name. Down, boy..

Bye now. There's no sense with continuing this discussion since you
continue to fail in your attempts to have anything worthwhile to say,
or contribute.

I guess your sleep disorder has kicked in. Come back when you know what
you're talkin' about. (Hmmm...I guess that means it'll be a long time)

--
Dave
www.davebbq.com

Doug Miller wrote:

Unfortunately, the farther his subject matter departs from woodworking,
the farther it departs from reality as well.

Now THAT'a the pot calling the kettle black :-).

--
It's turtles, all the way down

Dave Bugg wrote:

Ask the Iraqis.**A*clear*majority*hate*the*Americans*and*w ant*them*to
leave. They consider their life worse than before.

Not really, according to the latest survey. A large najority also believe
we'll never leave, that we want to establish permanent bases in Iraq.

--
It's turtles, all the way down

RicodJour wrote:
[snipped for brevity]

Strong opinions on
important matters require a different forum for your voice to be heard
and count for something. Otherwise it's no different than an XboX vs.
PS3 flame war.

R

The political forums (fora?) are nothing BUT a flame war. At least
here, there are some intelligent participants.
You'll have noticed, by now, that there will always be the
'head-up-the-ass' card-carrying voters who's minds are closed. They
come in Republican (conservative) and Democtratic (liberal) flavours.
Nobody seems to think anymore.

Eisenhouwer warned us about the military complex waging war for
business reasons. Guess he was smarter than many.

Other than that. I just installed a new Ridgid drill press. I put in a
centre bit and could not detect run-out. That means less than .0002.
Unbelievable. And silky smooth too. That is a REAL 1/2 HP motor.
Lots of balls.

G

r

He is an Englishman!
Boatswain.
He is an Englishman!
For he himself has said it,
And it's greatly to his credit,
That he is an Englishman!
All.
That he is an Englishman!
Boatswain.
For he might have been a Roosian,
A French, or Turk, or Proosian,
Or perhaps Itali-an!
All.
Or perhaps Itali-an!
Boatswain.
But in spite of all temptations
To belong to other nations,
He remains an Englishman!
He remains an Englishman!
All.
For in spite of all temptations
To belong to other nations,
He remains an Englishman!
He remains an Englishman!




You stupid ****ing twit.








On Tue, 03 Oct 2006 15:47:52 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article . com, "RicodJour" wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
In article , Bruce Barnett
wrote:
(Doug Miller) writes:

OK, if he *has* ever claimed to be without fault, cite it.

I remember TV interviews where Bush said that he didn't make any mistakes
in Iraq.

That's not the same as a generic claim to be without fault, which is the
context I was responding to.

The context was "I hate Bush". Since all political discussions are
emotional arguments masquerading as logical ones, there's little hope
of convincing the other party.

Well, yes, but the specific context was this from Robatoy:

"He truly is a Christian man without fault?"

which in that context has a specific meaning that is entirely different from
the question of whether he has made mistakes in his conduct of his job.
Regards,

Tom Watson

tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)

http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

"Upscale" wrote in message
...

"Dave Bugg" wrote in message

What part of redefining torture to equate sleep deprivation with severe
physical mutilation or injury is so hard for YOU to understand. Harsh
interrogation is NOT torture.

You're not too bright are you? Isn't it the opinion of the one who is
being
interrogated? And in case you're not aware, sleep deprivation *can* have
severe, long term effects, some more effecting than your opinion of
torture
is. Prolonged sleep deprivation can lead to death. How in your wildest
imagination can you dismiss that as not being a form of torture?


I agree, sleep deprivation is a lot worse than death!

Robatoy wrote:
error:
'head-up-the-ass' card-carrying voters bwho's/b minds are closed.


whose?

On Tue, 3 Oct 2006 14:28:24 +0000 (UTC), Bruce Barnett
wrote:

(Doug Miller) writes:

OK, if he *has* ever claimed to be without fault, cite it.

I remember TV interviews where Bush said that he didn't make any mistakes
in Iraq. I think that recently he now admits he made some small
mistakes.

Well, given the fact that to answer that question, as phrased would have
been the equivalent to answering, "so, when did you stop beating your
wife?" There was no correct answer to the question. Had he made some
comment regarding mistakes, the headlines the next weeks would have read,
"Bush Admits Huge Mistakes in Iraq! War a Blunder!". It was just the
sharks trolling for red meat, they weren't serious about finding problems
and fixing them, only finding another way to bring scorn upon the
administration. This 24/7 carping since 2000 has gotten way old, it's
pretty obvious the other side and their accomplices in the media don't give
a flyin' flip about the safety or security of this country, their whole
reason for being is to find the next thing to chink away at the
administration. It's not even subtle anymore. The good news is that the
more they do it, the more obvious it is that the safety of this country can
in no way be trusted to the opposition party.



+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

Doug Miller wrote:
In article , wrote:

I don't have any trouble telling the difference between sleep deprivation, and
murder. I'm sorry you do.

Perhaps you'd like to read the actual decision he
http://www.supremecourtus.gov/opinions/05pdf/05-184.pdf
and see for yourself that it does *not* say what you think it does.
.


How would the Iraqis know what it's like in the U.S.?

I notice you dodged the question *again*: do you *really* think that life in
Iraq under Saddam Hussein was comparable to life in the U.S. under George W.
Bush?


Cite, please?

I'm not going to hold my breath waiting...

This thread is dead to me.... I'm tired of the complaining.
No more "Robs apologies for me... jeez I feel like I fell into a rush
lemba (sp?) debate

Troy

Robatoy wrote:
RicodJour wrote:
[snipped for brevity]

Strong opinions on
important matters require a different forum for your voice to be heard
and count for something. Otherwise it's no different than an XboX vs.
PS3 flame war.

R

The political forums (fora?) are nothing BUT a flame war. At least
here, there are some intelligent participants.
You'll have noticed, by now, that there will always be the
'head-up-the-ass' card-carrying voters who's minds are closed. They
come in Republican (conservative) and Democtratic (liberal) flavours.
Nobody seems to think anymore.

Eisenhouwer warned us about the military complex waging war for
business reasons. Guess he was smarter than many.

Other than that. I just installed a new Ridgid drill press. I put in a
centre bit and could not detect run-out. That means less than .0002.
Unbelievable. And silky smooth too. That is a REAL 1/2 HP motor.
Lots of balls.

Please note that this drill press is the product of an Eeeeeeeevvvvilllll
Corporation that (gasp!) uses offshore manufacturing wherein there is no
Union labor, defined benefits pensions, universal healthcare, or long
paid vacations. You are quite happy to be part of the industrial
"complex", you just want to pick and choose which parts of it you supports.
For shame.

--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Daneliuk
PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/

TBM wrote:
"Upscale" wrote in message
...
"Dave Bugg" wrote in message

What part of redefining torture to equate sleep deprivation with severe
physical mutilation or injury is so hard for YOU to understand. Harsh
interrogation is NOT torture.
You're not too bright are you? Isn't it the opinion of the one who is
being
interrogated? And in case you're not aware, sleep deprivation *can* have
severe, long term effects, some more effecting than your opinion of
torture
is. Prolonged sleep deprivation can lead to death. How in your wildest
imagination can you dismiss that as not being a form of torture?


I agree, sleep deprivation is a lot worse than death!



I'd rather be interrogated by our military - a very professional
organization with lots of checks and balances - than ride with
Ted Kennedy.

--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Daneliuk
PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/

"Leon" wrote in message
et...

"TBM" wrote in message
...



I agree, sleep deprivation is a lot worse than death!


You have been dead before????

Yeah, no big deal.. still trying to overcome the after affects of that
sleep deprivation though.

Rod & Betty Jo wrote:
"Michael Daly" wrote in message
...
Doug Miller wrote:

Oh, really? You honestly think he's worse than Saddam Hussein
Given his attitude towards torture, I'd say they're about the same.

Mike

Is there some code or rule someplace that requires anti-Bush tirades to be
ignorant and stupid? To compare any approved Bush "torture" of which
includes sleep deprivation, cold rooms , loud music, maybe water boarding
(harmless but scary).... even including any and all of the unapproved
nudity, ridicule and the big dogs at Abu Grraib...... to Saddams murderous
and very public atrocities, his mass graves, approved rape, the tens of
thousands of Kurds and Shiites murdered and imprisoned .....is just so over
the top one has to wonder......Even though Saddam is responsible for over a
million deaths including the Iranian and Kuwait war, one could still easily
say it is not worth any American life or coin to stop such atrocities....
although it does make one wonder how many million must die before we should
be concerned? Were we as equally wrong to use 50,000 troops and spend
billions containing him in the decade prior? Rod




To understand these sort of moronic comparisons, you have to understand
the philosophy that animates much of the "leadership" that is driving
the anti-Bush/anti-war noise. These are people who are the detritus left
over from the 60s anti-war movement. In their dark flabby hearts they
*hate* the US military. They secretly still think of the military as
"baby killers" - except, of course, when it is neutered under a UN flag
handing out food and humanitarian supplies to the next generation of
Jihadist murderers.

They can't come right out and say this, of course, because their
anti-military insanity is currently not in fashion. So, they resort to
diminishing Bush (or whoever the enemy of the day is) to being
equivalent to Hitler/Hussein/Castro et al. The irony is, that especially
in the ideological Left (where most of the anti-Bush noise gas is
passed), these people never had all that much of a problem with
Hitler/Hussein/Castro et al. Prior to Pearl Harbor, the Left political
sentiment as regards to Hitler was appeasement or just ignoring him. It
took considerable pressure to even get weapons and supplies shipped to
Britain that was fighting for its very survival at the time. Similarly,
the Left was generally very quiet about Castro after the Bay Of Pigs
debacle and Kennedy's subsequent inability to do much about Cuba. Ditto
Sadaam. It was, you'll recall, the noisy Left that was just *horrified*
when Reagan called the USSR an "evil empire". The point is, that the
Bush haters are comparing him with despots they didn't have all that
much of a problem with overall. Ironic isn't it?

I'll repeat. Bush is a flawed present, but so too have been all the
preceding 42 of em'. It's an impossibly difficult job with any number of
political opportunists ready to jump in an exaggerate the smallest fault
for crass political advantage. The big difference this go around is
that, more than ever before, the political opportunism - in this case
from the Left - has become far more important than the good of the
nation. Instead of working quietly and diligently as *loyal* opposition
to steer the executive branch to better choices, the Left has done
little more than howl, hold its breath until it turns blue, and hope
against hope that Bush will fail spectacularly. They are craven,
shallow, despicable, and evil for doing so.


--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Daneliuk
PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/

"Michael Daly" wrote in message
...
Locutus wrote:

Maybe you should get a grip and realize that most Americans don't give a
flying **** what the rest of the world thinks.

Exactly what's wrong with the yanks today.

You represent less than 5% of the world's population and your share is
shrinking. You are in debt to your eyeballs and the subsidy of US debt by
countries like China and India is considered the "greatest foreign aid
program in history" (The Economist, Sept 16, 2006).

If so.... Then why do we have to pay off the notes when due? Would appear
your confusing hyperbole with fact.


You refuse to honour trade deals and international law.

Is this all of them, some or one? Would any country or especially the
largest trading partner in the world not have a dispute or two? If we are
"that bad" why are we flooded with foreign goods?

Your reputation is everything and in this world and you don't give a damn
about it.

Not really.... in fact when push comes to shove it doesn't mean that much at
all...opinion is rather fickle and jealousy rather rampant. I'd suspect we'd
be one of the few countries in the world whom literally could roll up our
borders and get along quite well without any foreign entanglements but when
the rest of the world gets in its inevitable mess whom is going to bail it
out?

Your loss. I hope your kids and grandkids will forgive you.
Mike

Oddly in the 50's after we saved the free world at great cost of life and
coin, then presented a strong and expensive bulwark against the looming
Communist threat it was popular to call us the "Ugly American".....books
were written and great gnashing of teeth prevailed......Opinions of the day
don't always have that much importance. Rod

In article , Troy wrote:

This thread is dead to me.... I'm tired of the complaining.
No more "Robs apologies for me... jeez I feel like I fell into a rush
lemba (sp?) debate

So why the need to proclaim that? Was there some reason you couldn't just kill
the thread quietly?

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Tim Daneliuk wrote:
[snipped for brevity and cleanliness]

Please note that this drill press is the product of an Eeeeeeeevvvvilllll
Corporation that (gasp!) uses offshore manufacturing wherein there is no
Union labor, defined benefits pensions, universal healthcare, or long
paid vacations. You are quite happy to be part of the industrial
"complex", you just want to pick and choose which parts of it you supports.
For shame.

Just because I loathe WonTon soup, doesn't mean I have to stop buying
Chinese tools.
I am also not going stop breathing air because Ted Kennedy farts in it.

And you, Tim, better stop eating. There is no way you can be sure that
the food you buy wasn't handled/processed/harvested by an illegal
immigrant who slaves under the yoke of an opportunist business owner.

r

Robatoy wrote:
Tim Daneliuk wrote:
[snipped for brevity and cleanliness]

Please note that this drill press is the product of an Eeeeeeeevvvvilllll
Corporation that (gasp!) uses offshore manufacturing wherein there is no
Union labor, defined benefits pensions, universal healthcare, or long
paid vacations. You are quite happy to be part of the industrial
"complex", you just want to pick and choose which parts of it you supports.
For shame.

Just because I loathe WonTon soup, doesn't mean I have to stop buying
Chinese tools.
I am also not going stop breathing air because Ted Kennedy farts in it.

And you, Tim, better stop eating. There is no way you can be sure that
the food you buy wasn't handled/processed/harvested by an illegal
immigrant who slaves under the yoke of an opportunist business owner.

r


But see, I don't hate the military/industrial/commercial "complex".
I don't think that profit is eeeeevvvviiiiill and I don't think
the business world is "waging war on [us] ... for business reasons"
as you insist. I also don't think that immigrants - legal or otherwise -
are "slaves under the yoke of an opportunist business owner". They
are people trying to make a better life for themselves. Note that
"better" connotes a relative, not absolute, improvement. Your tone
is silly, your examples are silly, and your ideas are silliest of all.

--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Daneliuk
PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/

Michael Daly wrote:
Locutus wrote:

Maybe you should get a grip and realize that most Americans don't give
a flying **** what the rest of the world thinks.

Exactly what's wrong with the yanks today.

Having not always been a "yank", as an immigrant to the US, I'd say that
this is exactly what's *right* about us. We have not capitulated to
the self-destructive ideologies that are ruining Continental Europe
and a good part of the Anglosphere.


You represent less than 5% of the world's population and your share is
shrinking. You are in debt to your eyeballs and the subsidy of US debt
by countries like China and India is considered the "greatest foreign

And our wealth is growing in the face of this. Like so many people, you
have puerile understanding of national debt. Yes, the US has large debt
- it's analogous to the guy who owns a rare Ferrari worth $1M, still
owes $100,000 on the note, and is getting a 5% pay raise every year. The
US GDP annualy cranks out $12 Trillion or so in net value. The
long-running debt is a fraction of that. Some considerable portion of
this could be eliminated almost instantly if we forced everyone who owed
us money to pay up AND quit fighting other people's wars. Note, for
example, that the US could easily operate without Arabic oil. If the US
just walked away from the Arab Penninsula and left it to its own slimy
tribal tendencies, guess who would get hurt? Western Europe & Japan
whose economies depend fundamentally on Arab oil.


Much of the US national debt is also driven by idiot do-gooding programs
that attempt to save people from their own stupidity. Over 50% of the
annual US Federal budget is consumed by so-called entitlement programs.
So ... by eliminating do-gooding both domestically and abroad, the US
could very rapidly eliminate its debt and become beholden to no one. If
that is what you're arguing for, I wholly concur.



aid program in history" (The Economist, Sept 16, 2006). You refuse to
honour trade deals and international law. Your reputation is everything
and in this world and you don't give a damn about it.

Your loss. I hope your kids and grandkids will forgive you.

Mike

They may or many not have anything to "forgive", but at least we'll
*have* grandkids. The current birth replacement rates in Western Europe,
Australia, Canada, & New Zealand are so low, that starting in about
20 years, the rest of the democratic West is going to cease to exist as
we know it. Spain will go first (at current rates) with such a low
population growth number that it should be Islamified fully in about
20-25 years. France, Italy, and Germany are next - again with the
replacement babies coming from the Islamic immigrants if current trends
prevail. Canada, Australia, and NZ have the same demographic problem,
but with a less obvious Islamic invasion to fill the gap. More likely
they will simply continue to diminish in importance or influence on the
world stage as fewer and fewer people remain to populate their nations.
The US is alone among Western powers with an almost perfect birth
replacement rate. That's because we encourage immigration and, more
importantly, people still really want to come here to live, work, and
raise their families. You know, the place that has all these problems
you've tried (very poorly) to identify.

We don't care what other nations think because we don't have to. When we
have to care, we will. But beware. The general goodwill and kindness
that are the instinct of the American people is stretched pretty thin
right now. After generations of picking up the military and humanitarian
tab for a good part of the rest of the world, we're tired of listening
to foolish, ill-mannered, and ignorant whining like yours. The last
thing most of the rest of the world can afford is for the US to back
away from the world stage and become entirely defensive in its military
and economic posture. But that sentiment is running stronger and
stronger in American culture as people watch their tax dollars evaporate
and the blood of their children spilled only to hear some haughty
European, Canadian, Aussie, or Kiwi lecture us about our bad behavior.
Be careful what you ask, for you shall surely get it ....



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Tim Daneliuk
PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/

Tim Daneliuk wrote:
[proganda/drivel snipped]
We don't care what other nations think because we don't have to. When we
have to care, we will. But beware. The general goodwill and kindness
that are the instinct of the American people is stretched pretty thin
right now. After generations of picking up the military and humanitarian
tab for a good part of the rest of the world, we're tired of listening
to foolish, ill-mannered, and ignorant whining like yours. The last
thing most of the rest of the world can afford is for the US to back
away from the world stage and become entirely defensive in its military
and economic posture. But that sentiment is running stronger and
stronger in American culture as people watch their tax dollars evaporate
and the blood of their children spilled only to hear some haughty
European, Canadian, Aussie, or Kiwi lecture us about our bad behaviour.
Be careful what you ask, for you shall surely get it ....

Nicely said. The benevolent nature of KBR/Haliburton, Bechtel and such,
really tugs at my heartstrings. The world is a better place since
Cheney left Haliburton and became VP.
The Carlisle Group and their defense portfolio, clearly shows their
effort in promoting peace.
Business has NO influence on politics, war decisions, and polution. Big
business simply does not exist.
For a guy (I am assuming) who has such a wonderful command of the
English language, you sure talk a lot of ****. Eloquent ****, but ****
nevertheless. (I am using a bit of your tactic here, attacking the
person rather than the issues.)

r