Hi, All,

I thought kickback was for thumb fingered geeks who didn't read the
manuals. I was wrong!!! Just got my first table saw last week, and
while putting some grooves in the ends of 1x2's, I dropped or bumped an
8 inch piece against the blade. Of course the blade guard was up!
LOUD THUNK! Oh, well... Finished the other pieces, and went looking
for the missing piece. Nowhere on the floor. Then I saw the piece
embeded in the plasterboard wall! Well embeded!

I had learned enough to use multiple push sticks, and stood well to
the left of the blade, so there was no injury, except to self esteem.

I am now a FIRM believer in the hazards of kickback. Even letting a
smaller piece of wood touch a moving blade will give you a scare, and a
vivid example of very rapid acceleration.

Hope this helps someone else avoid the experience.

Regards,

Rich.....

"rich" wrote in message
ups.com...
Hi, All,

I thought kickback was for thumb fingered geeks who didn't read the
manuals. I was wrong!!! Just got my first table saw last week, and
while putting some grooves in the ends of 1x2's, I dropped or bumped an
8 inch piece against the blade. Of course the blade guard was up!
LOUD THUNK! Oh, well... Finished the other pieces, and went looking
for the missing piece. Nowhere on the floor. Then I saw the piece
embeded in the plasterboard wall! Well embeded!

I'm a disciple of Kelly Mehler, author of _The Table Saw Book_ and a strong
proponent of table saw safety. He would not describe what you experienced
as kickback. In his words, kickback happens when a piece of wood gets bound
between the back of the blade and the fence, causing the wood at the back of
the blade to raise up, pivoting on the front corner, and getting tossed back
at something approximating a 45 deg angle to the left. In fact, I'm not
sure what word he would use to describe your experience. Something else
many people call kickback, when a cutoff piece between the blade and the
fence is pushed backward, he calls "ejection". I'd call what you had an
"accident" that thankfully had no negative consequences (unless walls can
feel pain). [Ed.- which for some reason reminds me of this Jack Handy
quote: "If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them
down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason."]

I had learned enough to use multiple push sticks, and stood well to
the left of the blade, so there was no injury, except to self esteem.

If you get a real kickback, you'll be standing directly in the path of the
projectile on the left side of the blade. In my opinion, the safest place
to stand while cutting is outside the room. The next safest place to stand
is to the right of the fence, which isn't always possible.

I am now a FIRM believer in the hazards of kickback. Even letting a
smaller piece of wood touch a moving blade will give you a scare, and a
vivid example of very rapid acceleration.

Hope this helps someone else avoid the experience.

As do I. It happened to me once, though the block wall was a bit more
resilient than your plasterboard. In my case, I was picking up pieces from
the outfeed table and dropped one. It bounced right on top of the blade.
It put some nice saw tooth marks in the back of a drawer front which I left
as a reminder.

todd

NAS NI: When were you there, what squadron? VAW-11 (post
VAP-61), late 60's, here. Lived offbase in 'nado at 9th & B.
Long live the Hotel!

Pop



"rich" wrote in message
ups.com...
Hi, All,

I thought kickback was for thumb fingered geeks who didn't
read the
manuals. I was wrong!!! Just got my first table saw last
week, and
while putting some grooves in the ends of 1x2's, I dropped or
bumped an
8 inch piece against the blade. Of course the blade guard was
up!
LOUD THUNK! Oh, well... Finished the other pieces, and went
looking
for the missing piece. Nowhere on the floor. Then I saw the
piece
embeded in the plasterboard wall! Well embeded!

I had learned enough to use multiple push sticks, and stood
well to
the left of the blade, so there was no injury, except to self
esteem.

I am now a FIRM believer in the hazards of kickback. Even
letting a
smaller piece of wood touch a moving blade will give you a
scare, and a
vivid example of very rapid acceleration.

Hope this helps someone else avoid the experience.

Regards,

Rich.....

"todd" wrote in message
...

As do I. It happened to me once, though the block wall was a bit more
resilient than your plasterboard. In my case, I was picking up pieces
from the outfeed table and dropped one. It bounced right on top of the
blade. It put some nice saw tooth marks in the back of a drawer front
which I left as a reminder.

todd

Should the saw be stopped when picking up pieces from the outfeed table?

Then I saw the piece
embeded in the plasterboard wall! Well embeded!

I had a piece go through the wall and land in a couch 6 feet from the wall.
I use a splitter now.

"Locutus" wrote in message
...

"todd" wrote in message
...

As do I. It happened to me once, though the block wall was a bit more
resilient than your plasterboard. In my case, I was picking up pieces
from the outfeed table and dropped one. It bounced right on top of the
blade. It put some nice saw tooth marks in the back of a drawer front
which I left as a reminder.

todd

Should the saw be stopped when picking up pieces from the outfeed table?

I'm sure it should. But of course I had more pieces to cut and these were
just piling up and getting in the way. Another case of being in a hurry
creating a dangerous situation.

todd

Good news is you were lucky. You still have all of your parts and they are
in good condition. I have been using table saws for years and have
experienced a few kickbacks. There is a moment when it appears to be
inevitable and your best defensive move is to step back and let it happen.
Even better, stop it before that moment happens. Splitters, featherboards
and general caution work wonders.

I have posted the experience of my son's buddy before. A piece of thin,
hardwood trim board got past the rollers of his benchtop surface planer.
The 6'-8' piece passed about 1/2 way through his abdomen before it stopped.
Surgery and lots of recuperation but he's doing ok today.

Be careful out there.

RonB

"todd" wrote in message
...
"Locutus" wrote in message
...

"todd" wrote in message
...

As do I. It happened to me once, though the block wall was a bit more
resilient than your plasterboard. In my case, I was picking up pieces
from the outfeed table and dropped one. It bounced right on top of the
blade. It put some nice saw tooth marks in the back of a drawer front
which I left as a reminder.

todd

Should the saw be stopped when picking up pieces from the outfeed table?

I'm sure it should. But of course I had more pieces to cut and these were
just piling up and getting in the way. Another case of being in a hurry
creating a dangerous situation.

todd

BTW, It was an honest question, I wasn't trying to be a smart ass. I am new
to this and still learning about proper tablesaw safety.

Thanks.

"Locutus" wrote in message
...

"todd" wrote in message
...
"Locutus" wrote in message
...

"todd" wrote in message
...

As do I. It happened to me once, though the block wall was a bit more
resilient than your plasterboard. In my case, I was picking up pieces
from the outfeed table and dropped one. It bounced right on top of the
blade. It put some nice saw tooth marks in the back of a drawer front
which I left as a reminder.

todd

Should the saw be stopped when picking up pieces from the outfeed table?

I'm sure it should. But of course I had more pieces to cut and these
were just piling up and getting in the way. Another case of being in a
hurry creating a dangerous situation.

todd

BTW, It was an honest question, I wasn't trying to be a smart ass. I am
new to this and still learning about proper tablesaw safety.

Thanks.

Well, I suppose each person works differently and some would shut it off and
some wouldn't. The safest thing to do would seem to be to turn it off
whenever you're not doing an (intentional) cutting operation.

todd

On Tue, 7 Mar 2006 21:07:21 -0500, "Locutus"
wrote:

Should the saw be stopped when picking up pieces from the outfeed table?

I'm sure it should. But of course I had more pieces to cut and these were
just piling up and getting in the way. Another case of being in a hurry
creating a dangerous situation.

todd

BTW, It was an honest question, I wasn't trying to be a smart ass. I am new
to this and still learning about proper tablesaw safety.

If you are walking around to the back of the saw and moving things to
somewhere else, technically you aren't supposed to walk away from any
machine until it has completely stopped. Imagine there's something on
the floor that you didn't notice and you lose your balance, what are
you going to do instictively with your arms? In practice I do it all
the time though.


-Leuf

I received a very large black and blue at belt level from not pushing a
piece all the way past the blade. If I was taller I can only guess what
would happen. I now use The GRR-RIPPER instead of two push sticks as
before. http://www.microjig.com/ Any comments on this new to me tool
good or bad would be appreiciated.I am interested in Todds comment "The
next safest place to stand
is to the right of the fence, which isn't always possible. " I guess I
thought of pieces coming straight back so standing to the left was the
safest. My problem and most Right handed persons would be that if we
stand to the right of fence we would have to use our left hands.

A 1x2 is a fairly small piece. To be really impressed, you
need to see a 2x4 leave the room. A piece of 1/4" plywood
thrown at you by a VERY large table saw is also quite exciting.

I use a overhead guard and a splitter if "at all possible"
on 90% of all cuts now.


rich wrote:

Hi, All,

I thought kickback was for thumb fingered geeks who didn't read the
manuals. I was wrong!!! Just got my first table saw last week, and
while putting some grooves in the ends of 1x2's, I dropped or bumped an
8 inch piece against the blade.

Pat Barber wrote:
A 1x2 is a fairly small piece. To be really impressed, you
need to see a 2x4 leave the room. A piece of 1/4" plywood
thrown at you by a VERY large table saw is also quite exciting.

I use a overhead guard and a splitter if "at all possible"
on 90% of all cuts now.


rich wrote:

Hi, All,

I thought kickback was for thumb fingered geeks who didn't read the
manuals. I was wrong!!! Just got my first table saw last week, and
while putting some grooves in the ends of 1x2's, I dropped or bumped an
8 inch piece against the blade.

This is a timely discussion as I had a 20x20 mdf panel sail past me
just a couple of days ago that started me looking at overhead blade
guards. I have a unisaw with a 50" Biesemeyer fence and I am having
trouble deciding between the Delta and the Biesememer version. Any
suggestions or experiences would be welcome.
Thanks,
Mike

"TheNewGuy" wrote in message
oups.com...
todd wrote:
I'm a disciple of Kelly Mehler, author of _The Table Saw Book_ and a
strong
proponent of table saw safety.

Great book, own it, read (most of) it. He was a presenter at the
Sacramento WWing show a couple years ago.

If you get a real kickback, you'll be standing directly in the path of
the
projectile on the left side of the blade. In my opinion, the safest
place
to stand while cutting is outside the room. The next safest place to
stand
is to the right of the fence, which isn't always possible.

Personally, I agree w/ you. I like standing to the right of the blade
for a couple reasons, including not having to reach across the blade
(even w/ pawl/splitter/shroud) as I push the work fully past the back
of the blade.

Thing is, Mehler in his book says standard position is to the left of
the workpiece/blade.

Go figure.

He's a strong proponent of riving knives. He's on some standards
subcommittee and I think if he had his way, riving knives would be standard
equipment on all table saws. With that said, he recommends that people
fashion something that does the job of a riving knife. With that in place,
it is not possible for a kickback (as he defines it) to occur.

snip

todd

todd wrote:

He's a strong proponent of riving knives. He's on some standards
subcommittee and I think if he had his way, riving knives would be standard
equipment on all table saws. With that said, he recommends that people
fashion something that does the job of a riving knife.

How does he deal with the varying knife height as the blade height is
adjusted?

If you set it up so that the knife is level with the blade when the top
of the blade is just above table level (allowing to to do non-through
cuts without removing the knife) this would leave the knife a lot lower
than the blade when the blade is brought up to full height, making it
more dangerous to cut 12/4 stock.

Depending on the saw this might be workable.

I have an old Rockwell and there's maybe an inch or so behind the blade
in the insert...not enough for any of the standard splitters/knives I've
seen.

Chris

Locutus wrote:

"todd" wrote in message
...
"Locutus" wrote in message
...

"todd" wrote in message
...

As do I. It happened to me once, though the block wall was a bit more
resilient than your plasterboard. In my case, I was picking up pieces
from the outfeed table and dropped one. It bounced right on top of the
blade. It put some nice saw tooth marks in the back of a drawer front
which I left as a reminder.

todd

Should the saw be stopped when picking up pieces from the outfeed table?

I'm sure it should. But of course I had more pieces to cut and these were
just piling up and getting in the way. Another case of being in a hurry
creating a dangerous situation.

todd

BTW, It was an honest question, I wasn't trying to be a smart ass. I am new
to this and still learning about proper tablesaw safety.

Thanks.


Rather than trying to remember a bunch of rules, sorting out some
of the conflicting rules, or doing EXACTLY what Mr. X or Mr. Y says,
how about understanding what causes what and why - then YOU decide
what you're willing to do to minimize the likelyhood of getting hit
by
a flying piece of whatever you're cutting. Short of ALWAYS using an
adequate power feeder, set up correctly, working with a table saw is
inherently dangerous - as are cars, bath tubs and electrical
outlets.

So - I guess it's time to post this again - and maybe save someone
some memorization - and hopefully - some grief.

http://home.comcast.net/~charliebcz/KickBack1.html

charlie b

Hi, POP!

I went through the HSL-31 RAG and SAR Swimmer school in 81-82. Later
when the SH-60B came out I went through the HSL-41 RAG in 85. I then
joined Afloat Training Group Pacific (ATGPAC) from 94 to 97. Now I'm
retired and working with the HELMARSTRIKE Weapons School down here in
NS Mayport.

I miss San Diego very much. I loved the NASNI woodshop and recently
called the local MWR and asked about base woodshops here in North
Florida. I am sad to announce that the MWR is phasing out ALL of the
base woodshops. It's a shame! When I was introduced to the NAVY,
EVERY base had a golf course, a bowling alley, a theater, and a
woodshop, this was a standard fixture. Now where are all of the CPO
selectees going to build their hat boxes and book cases?

I am proud to say, though, that my humble shop has become the shop of
choice for selectees here at COMHELMARSTRIKEWINGLANT. It started off
with one selectee last year and wound up with seven new Chiefs in my
shop! This year there will be even more. I still have materials left
over from last year, ready for next years "Slugs!" Bring 'em on!

Cheers!
Bobby
AWC(RET) (4000Hrs 30 Min) career SH-2F, SH-60B, SH-3H, MH-60R, MH-60S,
SH-60F, HH-60H

Back issue of FWW has an excellent article on this subject.

http://www.taunton.com/fwn/ToolGuide...F.aspx?id=2752

I have the Biesemeyer Overhead and Splitter.

Kelly likes both the Biesemeyer and the Delta guards.

Contact me privately with your "correct" email address.


mew wrote:


This is a timely discussion as I had a 20x20 mdf panel sail past me
just a couple of days ago that started me looking at overhead blade
guards. I have a unisaw with a 50" Biesemeyer fence and I am having
trouble deciding between the Delta and the Biesememer version. Any
suggestions or experiences would be welcome.
Thanks,
Mike

All of the UK/European tables saws must have a splitter its the law when
selling I would never dream of taking it off.
Why do you think North American Machines still dont sell them as stanard?

On Wed, 08 Mar 2006 00:38:32 -0000, rich wrote:

Hi, All,

I thought kickback was for thumb fingered geeks who didn't read the
manuals. I was wrong!!! Just got my first table saw last week, and
while putting some grooves in the ends of 1x2's, I dropped or bumped an
8 inch piece against the blade. Of course the blade guard was up!
LOUD THUNK! Oh, well... Finished the other pieces, and went looking
for the missing piece. Nowhere on the floor. Then I saw the piece
embeded in the plasterboard wall! Well embeded!

I had learned enough to use multiple push sticks, and stood well to
the left of the blade, so there was no injury, except to self esteem.

I am now a FIRM believer in the hazards of kickback. Even letting a
smaller piece of wood touch a moving blade will give you a scare, and a
vivid example of very rapid acceleration.

Hope this helps someone else avoid the experience.

Regards,

Rich....




--

%69%20%6c%6f%76%65%20%77%6f%6f%64%77%6f%72%6b%69%6 e%67%20%62%75%74%20%69%6d%20%63%72%61%70
http://www.connoraston.com

"Chris Friesen" wrote in message
...
todd wrote:

He's a strong proponent of riving knives. He's on some standards
subcommittee and I think if he had his way, riving knives would be
standard equipment on all table saws. With that said, he recommends that
people fashion something that does the job of a riving knife.

How does he deal with the varying knife height as the blade height is
adjusted?

A riving knife adjusts its position as the blade height is changed. It is
curved to fit the shape of the blade and maintains a consistent distance
from the blade, as opposed to a splitter. It's also set up so that the
height of the riving knife is slightly less than the blade height at any
time, permitting non-through cuts.

snip

todd

"Pat Barber" wrote in message
...
A 1x2 is a fairly small piece. To be really impressed, you
need to see a 2x4 leave the room. A piece of 1/4" plywood
thrown at you by a VERY large table saw is also quite exciting.
(snip)
Know all about that plywood. Had a 12 x 12 inch piece of 3/8 ply peel the
top of my left fore finger down to the tendon. On the way home from ER I
decided it was time for a good hold down. Purchased one with two spring
loaded adjustable rollers. This works great.

I haven't looked at hold downs. That is a good idea. To address the
circular saw post... I have tried that but I can never get a really
good cut. Must be my technique.

mew wrote:

To address the
circular saw post... I have tried that but I can never get a really
good cut. Must be my technique.

By "good cut"
do you mean the cut line is straight but
you're getting splintering on the edge?
or
the cut line is not straight because you
let the saw wander?

The former problem can be somewhat
mitigated by prescribing the cut line
with a utility knife, using the right
saw blade, set to the minimum "height"
AND with the "good face" down (splintering
and tear out with a circular saw is on
the side side of the stock whereas
with a table saw, it's on the bottom
of the stock on the table)

If wandering is a problem - they do
make a stragith edge clamp and saw
holder that fits in a groove on the
straight edge. No more wandering
Clamp 'N Guide makes this type of
thing. Of course, if you've got deep
pockets, FESTOOL has a plunge saw
and straight edge guide . . .

charlie b

Trying to cut up a full sheet of ply or MDF on
a table saw - by yourself - is a recipe for a
bad back and often - bad cuts you have to do
over again. Half sheets pretty much the same
thing. When you get down to quarter sheets
the problem becomes keeping the edge against
the fence - throughout the cut. If you don't,
things can start flying in very unpredicatable
directions - all at high velocity.

SLIDING TABLE - NO RIP FENCE!

It's still a mystery to me why US table saws
don't have a sliding table option. Two
miter slots - but no sliding table? A
sled with guides riding in the slots on
each side of the blade is great for narrow
cross cuts. But when you want to work
with half or quarter sheets they're
essentially useless.

And what the hell are you doing to do
with a 52" capacity rip fence system"

Rather than changing the name and/or
color of the table saw (Delta's "X"
models, "Platinum Limited Edition"
"75th Anniversary Model") why
aren't American brands actually
improving the machines they make
(or spec and farm out the actual
manufacturing)? OK - so there's a
LEFT TILT - but come on - there's
not bee much innovation by US
machine sellers. Of course, we
did come up with SawStop - oh boy!

rant off

charlie b

"charlie b" wrote in message
...
todd wrote:

"Chris Friesen" wrote in message
...
todd wrote:

He's a strong proponent of riving knives. He's on some standards
subcommittee and I think if he had his way, riving knives would be
standard equipment on all table saws. With that said, he recommends
that
people fashion something that does the job of a riving knife.

How does he deal with the varying knife height as the blade height is
adjusted?

A riving knife adjusts its position as the blade height is changed. It
is
curved to fit the shape of the blade and maintains a consistent distance
from the blade, as opposed to a splitter. It's also set up so that the
height of the riving knife is slightly less than the blade height at any
time, permitting non-through cuts.

snip

todd

Second illustration shows the difference between a splitter
and a riving knife. Notice that th distance between the
exposed rear of the blade and the splitter INCREASES as
the depth of cut decreases while with the riving knife
the distance between the rear of the blade and the knife
remains constant - AND CLOSE.

http://home.comcast.net/~charliebcz/KickBack3.html

charlie b

Thanks for reinforcing my point with a pic.

todd

charlie b wrote:

Rather than changing the name and/or
color of the table saw (Delta's "X"
models, "Platinum Limited Edition"
"75th Anniversary Model") why
aren't American brands actually
improving the machines they make
(or spec and farm out the actual
manufacturing)?

They're busy racing to the bottom.

er
--
email not valid

What caused the mdf panel to sail? Since it's pretty much the most
stable material to work with (i.e. it shouldn't have "pinched" the back
of the blade), do you know the mechanism that caused it? (Yes, I
realize it happened in microseconds).

Thanks,
Chris

Well, what really caused it to sail was stupidity. Not using a sled
but the fence in combination with sneezing at the wrong moment that
caused my hand to twist which caused the piece to twist back into the
blade as I was almost all the way through the cut. The stupidity part
was not using a splitter or blade guard as I had removed them to use
the dado blade and not reinserted them when I changed blades. The
factory ones are a real pain to take off and put back. That is why I
am looking at an overhead guard with an easily removed splitter. As
well as building a sled for this kind of stuff.

It's cheaper not to.

"Connor Aston" wrote in message
newsp.s54aumnyqkab0d@vigor13...
All of the UK/European tables saws must have a splitter its the law when
selling I would never dream of taking it off.
Why do you think North American Machines still dont sell them as stanard?

Mike:

I went two ways after a couple of "interesting" kick backs. The Bies
splitter went into my Jet cabinet saw like it was made for it (it was,
of course). Later I added a Delta overhead blade guard. Works like a
dream. I bought an extra splitter blade for the Bies and cut it down
and removed the pawls, so I can split a board held on its edge.
Resawing w/o a bandsaw if you like. Bandsaw is next on my list as
splitting a 6" 5/4 board (2 cuts) is a bit spooky even with a fence
mounted sled. It works, but it is a bit scary.

Regards

Tom




This is a timely discussion as I had a 20x20 mdf panel sail past me
just a couple of days ago that started me looking at overhead blade
guards. I have a unisaw with a 50" Biesemeyer fence and I am having
trouble deciding between the Delta and the Biesememer version. Any
suggestions or experiences would be welcome.
Thanks,
Mike