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  #1   Report Post  
Phil
 
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Default Wet car carpets an the waterproof membrane in car doors

After many false trails I have narrowed down the cause of wet carpets in
our cars to rain leakage past the plastic membrane between the door trim
panel and the door metalwork. I have to confess that for years I thought
the membrane was for keeping out draughts, but I know see it forms a
critical part of a cunning water drainage system. There is actually a
shallow vertical channel pressed along the bottom of the door inner skin
with a drain slot through the skin (see below in fixed font).

The idea is that any water running down the compartment side of the door
inner skin is supposed to run along this channel to the drain slot/s
thence to the door innards, and then finally drain out through a hole in
the very bottom of the door. This lower drain hole is outside of the
main door weather seal. Any water that runs down the surface next to the
door trim will drip out on the interior side of the weather seal and
finish up on the carpet. The plastic membrane forms completes the
channel in the door skin, and without the membrane being glued to the
door below the indented channel the whole scheme fails and wet carpets
are the result.

Now the membrane is relatively delicate and has to be removed for
several kinds of repair inside the door; e.g. central locking motors,
electric window winders, door lock etc, so the original is stuck on with
a tacky tape that allows several removal/refit operations while
retaining a waterproof seal of membrane to the door skin.

So at last my question: What is this adhesive and where can I get some?
It needs to stick permanently to the metal door skin and be tacky to
plastic sheeting, and impervious to water. A double-sided tape would be
ideal, but a caulk, or adhesive would also be suitable.

As you may guess the membranes in our cars have exhausted the tackiness
and are now leaking, as evidenced by wet carpets and steamed up windows.


t m r| |
t m r| |
t m r| Door |
t m r| Section|
t m r| |
t m r| | Outside
t m r| |
Car t m r) == Channel | = door skin
Interior t m rrr== Drain hole t = Trim Panel
t m LX|r | m = Membrane
t m LX|r | X = Adhesive
LLLLLW|r | W = Weather seal
L --- W|r | r = rain water intended path
Carpet L/ |W\rrrrrrr / L = Leakage path
______L/ \W\_____ r == Lower drain hole
Sill \_ r
r
Road


--
Phil
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:::Jerry::::
 
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"Phil" wrote in message
...

snip

[ re the long winded question about car door membranes ]

First off, what car is it, this might effect what should be used.

Second, if you don't mind having to replace the plastic each time you remove
the membrane then use PU sealer, but don't get it any where you don't want
to stick other wise you'll end up bonding it to the door frame.

Otherwise you could use spray on adhesive, which is a little more forgiving.


  #3   Report Post  
Phil
 
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On Thu, 4 Nov 2004 22:00:45 -0000, ":::Jerry::::"
wrote:


"Phil" wrote in message
...

snip

[ re the long winded question about car door membranes ]


Duh... thought it would be informative for those that don't know why
their carpets are wet - took me ages to eliminate everything else. Can't
please everyone, I suppose.

First off, what car is it, this might effect what should be used.


Doubt it. One's a peugeot 206 x-reg, another is cavalier mk II saloon 88
vintage (but only 60K mls), and a Rover 216 box shape (1989, but only
33K mls). They all have essentially the same system and all leak the
same way.

Second, if you don't mind having to replace the plastic each time you remove
the membrane then use PU sealer, but don't get it any where you don't want
to stick other wise you'll end up bonding it to the door frame.


What's a PU sealer?

Otherwise you could use spray on adhesive, which is a little more forgiving.


Can you suggest a make/source? Are they tacky.

--
Phil
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Doki
 
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:::Jerry:::: wrote:
"Phil" wrote in message
...

snip

[ re the long winded question about car door membranes ]

First off, what car is it, this might effect what should be used.

Second, if you don't mind having to replace the plastic each time you
remove the membrane then use PU sealer, but don't get it any where
you don't want to stick other wise you'll end up bonding it to the
door frame.


TBH I'd go for duct tape or similar, I've been told it's what the mechanics
use at my Ford dealer... You can't often buy new membranes IME.

Otherwise you could use spray on adhesive, which is a little more
forgiving.


3M spray glue (bog standard type) won't glue door membranes to doors.


  #5   Report Post  
Phil Addison
 
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Default

On Thu, 4 Nov 2004 23:25:37 -0000, "Doki" wrote:



:::Jerry:::: wrote:
"Phil" wrote in message
...

snip

[ re the long winded question about car door membranes ]

First off, what car is it, this might effect what should be used.

Second, if you don't mind having to replace the plastic each time you
remove the membrane then use PU sealer, but don't get it any where
you don't want to stick other wise you'll end up bonding it to the
door frame.


TBH I'd go for duct tape or similar, I've been told it's what the mechanics
use at my Ford dealer...


I used duct tape previously when I thought the membrane was just to keep
out draughts. It is sort-of OK, but you really want the plastic to be
sealed right below the drain channel. Just sticking it down round the
edges results in water gathering at the bottom of the membrane which
will be 1"-2" below the drain hole. Not healthy for the door skin. I'm
sure its a common bodge though; after all, I did it myself until I
really HAD to figure out where the water was getting in.

You can't often buy new membranes IME.


It's easy enough to make a new membrane out of a sheet of polythene.
Helps if you have the old one as a template though. Peugeot sell them
for a ridiculous sum; think it was IRO 30-40 pounds.

Otherwise you could use spray on adhesive, which is a little more
forgiving.


3M spray glue (bog standard type) won't glue door membranes to doors.


Thanks - won't bother with that then. Being polythene-like, it will need
something tacky to glue it.

Phil
The uk.d-i-y FAQ is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/
Remove NOSPAM from address to email me


  #6   Report Post  
Dave Plowman (News)
 
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In article ,
Phil wrote:
After many false trails I have narrowed down the cause of wet carpets in
our cars to rain leakage past the plastic membrane between the door trim
panel and the door metalwork. I have to confess that for years I thought
the membrane was for keeping out draughts, but I know see it forms a
critical part of a cunning water drainage system. There is actually a
shallow vertical channel pressed along the bottom of the door inner skin
with a drain slot through the skin (see below in fixed font).


I'm intrigued. How is the membrane sealed? All the doors I've seen have
fixings for the outer trim that couldn't be sealed. And holes for things
like wires and door handles. I've always just considered it to be for the
odd splash.

--
*Happiness is seeing your mother-in-law on a milk carton

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
  #7   Report Post  
Mike G
 
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Default


"Doki" wrote in message
...


:::Jerry:::: wrote:
"Phil" wrote in message
...

snip

[ re the long winded question about car door membranes ]

First off, what car is it, this might effect what should be used.

Second, if you don't mind having to replace the plastic each time you
remove the membrane then use PU sealer, but don't get it any where
you don't want to stick other wise you'll end up bonding it to the
door frame.


TBH I'd go for duct tape or similar, I've been told it's what the

mechanics
use at my Ford dealer... You can't often buy new membranes IME.


Yep. Duct tape is the way to go IMO. It's what I've always used without any
problems, as long as you make sure the interior door skin is clean before
sticking.
Door skins can get surprisingly dusty. Enough to stop the duct tape sticking
properly.
Mike.

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:::Jerry::::
 
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Default


"Phil" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 4 Nov 2004 22:00:45 -0000, ":::Jerry::::"
wrote:


"Phil" wrote in message
...

snip

[ re the long winded question about car door membranes ]


Duh... thought it would be informative for those that don't know why
their carpets are wet - took me ages to eliminate everything else. Can't
please everyone, I suppose.


Sorry but when you deal with these things almost daily....


First off, what car is it, this might effect what should be used.


Doubt it. One's a peugeot 206 x-reg, another is cavalier mk II saloon 88
vintage (but only 60K mls), and a Rover 216 box shape (1989, but only
33K mls). They all have essentially the same system and all leak the
same way.


Oh, right, no those models are more or less standard in their door weather
proofing, but if they had been a newist Renualt then they don't use a
membrane at all - the door pad is designed to be weather proof and they use
a specail type of sealer to attach / seal the pad to the door frame.


Second, if you don't mind having to replace the plastic each time you

remove
the membrane then use PU sealer, but don't get it any where you don't

want
to stick other wise you'll end up bonding it to the door frame.


What's a PU sealer?


Polyurethane sealer. Ask in any half decent motor factors, don't bother with
places like halfwits, they will probably try and sealer you either silicon
or mastic sealer.


Otherwise you could use spray on adhesive, which is a little more

forgiving.

Can you suggest a make/source? Are they tacky.


Yes, it's an adhesive (!), you can get it at motor factors as well.


  #9   Report Post  
:::Jerry::::
 
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Default


"Doki" wrote in message
...


:::Jerry:::: wrote:
"Phil" wrote in message
...

snip

[ re the long winded question about car door membranes ]

First off, what car is it, this might effect what should be used.

Second, if you don't mind having to replace the plastic each time you
remove the membrane then use PU sealer, but don't get it any where
you don't want to stick other wise you'll end up bonding it to the
door frame.


TBH I'd go for duct tape or similar, I've been told it's what the

mechanics
use at my Ford dealer... You can't often buy new membranes IME.


If they are using Duck tape then they are bodging....


Otherwise you could use spray on adhesive, which is a little more
forgiving.


3M spray glue (bog standard type) won't glue door membranes to doors.


Total boll*x, yes it will.


  #10   Report Post  
:::Jerry::::
 
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Default


"Mike G" wrote in message
...

"Doki" wrote in message
...


:::Jerry:::: wrote:
"Phil" wrote in message
...

snip

[ re the long winded question about car door membranes ]

First off, what car is it, this might effect what should be used.

Second, if you don't mind having to replace the plastic each time you
remove the membrane then use PU sealer, but don't get it any where
you don't want to stick other wise you'll end up bonding it to the
door frame.


TBH I'd go for duct tape or similar, I've been told it's what the

mechanics
use at my Ford dealer... You can't often buy new membranes IME.


Yep. Duct tape is the way to go IMO.


And is nothing but a bodge.

It's what I've always used without any
problems, as long as you make sure the interior door skin is clean before
sticking.


Oh do get a clue...

Door skins can get surprisingly dusty. Enough to stop the duct tape

sticking
properly.


But he is not trying to stick the membrane to the door skin (I hope...), do
try and get a clue. :~((




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DocDelete
 
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"Mike G" wrote in message
...

Door skins can get surprisingly dusty. Enough to stop the duct tape

sticking
properly.


As an additional task whilst you're in there - buy some spray Waxoyl and
liberally coat the door internal sheetwork (not anything where water runs,
or mechanical). Works wonders on crap old cars where water *will* pool
despite your best efforts - so should stave off rust indefinitely in a newer
car...

--
Ken Davidson
DocDelete


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.788 / Virus Database: 533 - Release Date: 01/11/04


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Mike G
 
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":::Jerry::::" wrote in message
...

"Mike G" wrote in message
...

"Doki" wrote in message
...


:::Jerry:::: wrote:
"Phil" wrote in message
...

snip

[ re the long winded question about car door membranes ]

First off, what car is it, this might effect what should be used.

Second, if you don't mind having to replace the plastic each time

you
remove the membrane then use PU sealer, but don't get it any where
you don't want to stick other wise you'll end up bonding it to the
door frame.

TBH I'd go for duct tape or similar, I've been told it's what the

mechanics
use at my Ford dealer... You can't often buy new membranes IME.


Yep. Duct tape is the way to go IMO.


And is nothing but a bodge.

It's what I've always used without any
problems, as long as you make sure the interior door skin is clean

before
sticking.


Oh do get a clue...


Thaught you'd left.
Obviously our misfortune that you haven't.
You always seem more interested in making scathing remarks about the posts
of others, rather than offering constructive advice yourself.
Mike.

  #13   Report Post  
:::Jerry::::
 
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Default


"Mike G" wrote in message
...

":::Jerry::::" wrote in message
...

"Mike G" wrote in message
...

"Doki" wrote in message
...


:::Jerry:::: wrote:
"Phil" wrote in message
...

snip

[ re the long winded question about car door membranes ]

First off, what car is it, this might effect what should be used.

Second, if you don't mind having to replace the plastic each time

you
remove the membrane then use PU sealer, but don't get it any where
you don't want to stick other wise you'll end up bonding it to the
door frame.

TBH I'd go for duct tape or similar, I've been told it's what the
mechanics
use at my Ford dealer... You can't often buy new membranes IME.

Yep. Duct tape is the way to go IMO.


And is nothing but a bodge.

It's what I've always used without any
problems, as long as you make sure the interior door skin is clean

before
sticking.


Oh do get a clue...


Thaught you'd left.


Seem like you can't use your newsreader either....

Obviously our misfortune that you haven't.


Oh do get a clue, stop trying to be a moron...

You always seem more interested in making scathing remarks about the posts
of others, rather than offering constructive advice yourself.


Well considering I replied first and with the correct answer and all you
could do is offer a bodge and show just how clueless you are about cars even
though you bull-**** your way whilst 'trying' to show that you know the
first thing . As I said, get a clue.


  #14   Report Post  
Phil
 
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Default

On Fri, 5 Nov 2004 10:13:32 -0000, ":::Jerry::::"
wrote:


"Doki" wrote in message
...


:::Jerry:::: wrote:
"Phil" wrote in message
...

snip

[ re the long winded question about car door membranes ]

First off, what car is it, this might effect what should be used.

Second, if you don't mind having to replace the plastic each time you
remove the membrane then use PU sealer, but don't get it any where
you don't want to stick other wise you'll end up bonding it to the
door frame.


TBH I'd go for duct tape or similar, I've been told it's what the

mechanics
use at my Ford dealer... You can't often buy new membranes IME.


If they are using Duck tape then they are bodging....


Otherwise you could use spray on adhesive, which is a little more
forgiving.


3M spray glue (bog standard type) won't glue door membranes to doors.


Total boll*x, yes it will.


As no one seems to know the proper answer, I am going to try
double-sided lino tape. Shame Jerry could't be bothered to tell me what
PU sealer is, or I could have considered that.

Thanks for all your inputs - it's nice to know I'm not alone in not
knowing what to use.

--
Phil
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:::Jerry::::
 
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Default


"Phil" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 5 Nov 2004 10:13:32 -0000, ":::Jerry::::"
wrote:


"Doki" wrote in message
...


:::Jerry:::: wrote:
"Phil" wrote in message
...

snip

[ re the long winded question about car door membranes ]

First off, what car is it, this might effect what should be used.

Second, if you don't mind having to replace the plastic each time

you
remove the membrane then use PU sealer, but don't get it any where
you don't want to stick other wise you'll end up bonding it to the
door frame.

TBH I'd go for duct tape or similar, I've been told it's what the

mechanics
use at my Ford dealer... You can't often buy new membranes IME.


If they are using Duck tape then they are bodging....


Otherwise you could use spray on adhesive, which is a little more
forgiving.

3M spray glue (bog standard type) won't glue door membranes to doors.


Total boll*x, yes it will.


As no one seems to know the proper answer, I am going to try
double-sided lino tape. Shame Jerry could't be bothered to tell me what
PU sealer is, or I could have considered that.


I have, perhaps your news server hasn't received the message (yet), so I'll
repost what I said in that reply.

"Polyurethane sealer. Ask in any half decent motor factors, don't bother
with
places like halfwits, they will probably try and sealer you either silicon
or mastic sealer."




  #16   Report Post  
Phil
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Fri, 5 Nov 2004 12:36:45 -0000, ":::Jerry::::"
wrote:


"Phil" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 5 Nov 2004 10:13:32 -0000, ":::Jerry::::"
wrote:


"Doki" wrote in message
...


:::Jerry:::: wrote:
"Phil" wrote in message
...

snip

[ re the long winded question about car door membranes ]

First off, what car is it, this might effect what should be used.

Second, if you don't mind having to replace the plastic each time

you
remove the membrane then use PU sealer, but don't get it any where
you don't want to stick other wise you'll end up bonding it to the
door frame.

TBH I'd go for duct tape or similar, I've been told it's what the
mechanics
use at my Ford dealer... You can't often buy new membranes IME.

If they are using Duck tape then they are bodging....


Otherwise you could use spray on adhesive, which is a little more
forgiving.

3M spray glue (bog standard type) won't glue door membranes to doors.


Total boll*x, yes it will.


As no one seems to know the proper answer, I am going to try
double-sided lino tape. Shame Jerry could't be bothered to tell me what
PU sealer is, or I could have considered that.


I have, perhaps your news server hasn't received the message (yet), so I'll
repost what I said in that reply.


Nope, it hasn't turned up in either group so far.

"Polyurethane sealer. Ask in any half decent motor factors, don't bother
with
places like halfwits, they will probably try and sealer you either silicon
or mastic sealer."


What form is it - spray, caulk, glue, tape, or what? Is it tacky?

--
Phil
Replace NOSPAM with bigfoot to reply
  #17   Report Post  
Pete C
 
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On Thu, 04 Nov 2004 21:28:02 GMT, Phil
wrote:

So at last my question: What is this adhesive and where can I get some?
It needs to stick permanently to the metal door skin and be tacky to
plastic sheeting, and impervious to water. A double-sided tape would be
ideal, but a caulk, or adhesive would also be suitable.


Hi,

In a pinch try Boss White, plumbers mait, glazing putty etc. If
getting a seam sealer make sure it's non setting mastic, otherwise it
could be the complete opposite! A local bodyshop might sell you a tube
or tell you where it can be bought.

cheers,
Pete.
  #18   Report Post  
StealthUK
 
Posts: n/a
Default

The drivers side carpet used to become sodden on an old Vauxhall Astra
my brother owned. We tried everything to work out where all this water
was coming from - siliconed around the windcsreen, took up the carpet
etc. to no avail.
In the end it was just some mud/dirt lodged along the A-pillar near
the hinges. The water which should have been draining down onto the
sill was being diverted into the cabin.
  #19   Report Post  
:::Jerry::::
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Phil" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 5 Nov 2004 12:36:45 -0000, ":::Jerry::::"
wrote:

snip

"Polyurethane sealer. Ask in any half decent motor factors, don't bother
with
places like halfwits, they will probably try and sealer you either

silicon
or mastic sealer."


What form is it - spray, caulk, glue, tape, or what? Is it tacky?


Use it via a caulking gun, and yes it is sticky.


  #20   Report Post  
:::Jerry::::
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Pete C" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 04 Nov 2004 21:28:02 GMT, Phil
wrote:

So at last my question: What is this adhesive and where can I get some?
It needs to stick permanently to the metal door skin and be tacky to
plastic sheeting, and impervious to water. A double-sided tape would be
ideal, but a caulk, or adhesive would also be suitable.


Hi,

In a pinch try Boss White, plumbers mait, glazing putty etc. If


What utter tosh ! :~(

getting a seam sealer make sure it's non setting mastic, otherwise it
could be the complete opposite! snip


That might have been correct 25 years ago....




  #21   Report Post  
Mike G
 
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Default


":::Jerry::::" wrote in message
...

"Mike G" wrote in message
...


Yep. Duct tape is the way to go IMO.

And is nothing but a bodge.

It's what I've always used without any
problems, as long as you make sure the interior door skin is clean

before
sticking.

Oh do get a clue...


Thaught you'd left.


Seem like you can't use your newsreader either....

Obviously our misfortune that you haven't.


Oh do get a clue, stop trying to be a moron...

You always seem more interested in making scathing remarks about the

posts
of others, rather than offering constructive advice yourself.


Well considering I replied first and with the correct answer and all you
could do is offer a bodge and show just how clueless you are about cars

even
though you bull-**** your way whilst 'trying' to show that you know the
first thing . As I said, get a clue.


Seeing as many manufacturers themselves use a tape similar to duct tape, how
can it be a bodge?
Your condescending, self righteous and rude attitude doesn't go down well I
assure you.
There's nothing wrong with disagreeing, but do you have to be so unpleasant
about it?
You may believe you are an expert on all subjects relating to car
maintenance, but your posts clearly show you're not.
In fact you sound like J.E.L under a different name. Like you he knew it
all.
Mike.

  #22   Report Post  
Phil
 
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On Fri, 05 Nov 2004 00:15:35 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Phil wrote:
After many false trails I have narrowed down the cause of wet carpets in
our cars to rain leakage past the plastic membrane between the door trim
panel and the door metalwork. I have to confess that for years I thought
the membrane was for keeping out draughts, but I know see it forms a
critical part of a cunning water drainage system. There is actually a
shallow vertical channel pressed along the bottom of the door inner skin
with a drain slot through the skin (see below in fixed font).


I'm intrigued. How is the membrane sealed? All the doors I've seen have
fixings for the outer trim that couldn't be sealed. And holes for things
like wires and door handles. I've always just considered it to be for the
odd splash.


Didn't my ascii art show up? Like you I didn't realise the importance of
it for water sealing, but as I say, all 3 cars have enough rain getting
in to soak the carpet, and this is with them just parked outside when it
rains heavy. If you look carefully at the inner skin pressing you should
see a shallow 1/2" wide channel running across the bottom. The membrane
is glued immediately below that so any water running down is caught and
runs along the channel to its lowest point where a hole is punched
through the skin. this routes the water to the door insides where it
finds its way out through drain holes at the bottom. This is how it is
in the Cav and Rover. The Pug 206 is a bit different and more robust
(potentially, although mine failed!), see my previous post.

When the car is parked on the camber it is invariably the uphill side
that leaks. Water must be dripping past the outer window seal, running
down the glass inside the door and dripping off that onto the inner
skin. From there it presumably finds its way through the numerous
piercings you mention.

The plastic press-stud things that fix the outer trim are, I guess,
supposed to be a tight fit and hopefully won't let a significant stream
through. It's a point to watch for sure.

--
Phil
Replace NOSPAM with bigfoot to reply
  #23   Report Post  
Phil
 
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On Fri, 05 Nov 2004 20:11:24 GMT, Phil wrote:

On Fri, 05 Nov 2004 00:15:35 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Phil wrote:
After many false trails I have narrowed down the cause of wet carpets in
our cars to rain leakage past the plastic membrane between the door trim
panel and the door metalwork. I have to confess that for years I thought
the membrane was for keeping out draughts, but I know see it forms a
critical part of a cunning water drainage system. There is actually a
shallow vertical channel pressed along the bottom of the door inner skin
with a drain slot through the skin (see below in fixed font).


I'm intrigued. How is the membrane sealed? All the doors I've seen have
fixings for the outer trim that couldn't be sealed. And holes for things
like wires and door handles. I've always just considered it to be for the
odd splash.


Didn't my ascii art show up? Like you I didn't realise the importance of
it for water sealing, but as I say, all 3 cars have enough rain getting
in to soak the carpet, and this is with them just parked outside when it
rains heavy. If you look carefully at the inner skin pressing you should
see a shallow 1/2" wide channel running across the bottom. The membrane
is glued immediately below that so any water running down is caught and
runs along the channel to its lowest point where a hole is punched
through the skin. this routes the water to the door insides where it
finds its way out through drain holes at the bottom. This is how it is
in the Cav and Rover. The Pug 206 is a bit different and more robust
(potentially, although mine failed!), see my previous post.

When the car is parked on the camber it is invariably the uphill side
that leaks. Water must be dripping past the outer window seal, running
down the glass inside the door and dripping off that onto the inner
skin. From there it presumably finds its way through the numerous
piercings you mention.

The plastic press-stud things that fix the outer trim are, I guess,
supposed to be a tight fit and hopefully won't let a significant stream
through. It's a point to watch for sure.


Just re-read yours (Dave) and perhaps I missed the point. In the Pug,
which is only 3 years old, the rear door only has one piercing in the
membrane for the window winder handle, and that is sealed by a neat
circle of caulk round it. Also the membrane is well sealed all the way
round with a caulk bead. On the Cav and Rover there were lots of
unsealed holes but they are all fairly high up. I covered them all up
with either duct tape or a blob of silicone.

--
Phil
Replace NOSPAM with bigfoot to reply
  #24   Report Post  
:::Jerry::::
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Mike G" wrote in message
...

":::Jerry::::" wrote in message
...

"Mike G" wrote in message
...


Yep. Duct tape is the way to go IMO.

And is nothing but a bodge.

It's what I've always used without any
problems, as long as you make sure the interior door skin is clean
before
sticking.

Oh do get a clue...

Thaught you'd left.


Seem like you can't use your newsreader either....

Obviously our misfortune that you haven't.


Oh do get a clue, stop trying to be a moron...

You always seem more interested in making scathing remarks about the

posts
of others, rather than offering constructive advice yourself.


Well considering I replied first and with the correct answer and all you
could do is offer a bodge and show just how clueless you are about cars

even
though you bull-**** your way whilst 'trying' to show that you know the
first thing . As I said, get a clue.


Seeing as many manufacturers themselves use a tape similar to duct tape,

how
can it be a bodge?


No they don't. As I say, get a clue, stop trying to be a moron ! The only
door I've seen come out of a factory with 'Duck' type tape as the means of
sealing the door pad in the last 25 or more years was the original Mini.

Your condescending, self righteous and rude attitude doesn't go down well

I
assure you.


Nor does you trying to wrap your bull -**** up as fact when you prove time
and time again that you are nothing but a clueless idiot when it comes to
even basic information.

There's nothing wrong with disagreeing, but do you have to be so

unpleasant
about it?
You may believe you are an expert on all subjects relating to car
maintenance, but your posts clearly show you're not.
In fact you sound like J.E.L under a different name. Like you he knew it
all.


POP KETTLE BLACK....


  #25   Report Post  
Dave Plowman (News)
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article ,
:::Jerry:::: wrote:
If they are using Duck tape then they are bodging....


That's how my SD1 left the factory.

So you're probably right.

--
*Why do overlook and oversee mean opposite things?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.


  #26   Report Post  
Dave Plowman (News)
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article ,
Phil wrote:
Just re-read yours (Dave) and perhaps I missed the point. In the Pug,
which is only 3 years old, the rear door only has one piercing in the
membrane for the window winder handle, and that is sealed by a neat
circle of caulk round it. Also the membrane is well sealed all the way
round with a caulk bead. On the Cav and Rover there were lots of
unsealed holes but they are all fairly high up. I covered them all up
with either duct tape or a blob of silicone.


How is the door trim attached? I'd have thought this would be the weak
point?

--
*A fine is a tax for doing wrong. A tax is a fine for doing well.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
  #27   Report Post  
Dave Plowman (News)
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article ,
:::Jerry:::: wrote:
No they don't. As I say, get a clue, stop trying to be a moron ! The only
door I've seen come out of a factory with 'Duck' type tape as the means of
sealing the door pad in the last 25 or more years was the original Mini.


The original Mini didn't have a door pad as such - sliding windows. The
trim was simply wedged up against the inner of the door skin.

In theory, with no wind up windows, no water can get 'inside' the door.

--
*When I'm not in my right mind, my left mind gets pretty crowded *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
  #28   Report Post  
Guy King
 
Posts: n/a
Default

The message
from Phil contains these words:

I'm still puzzled by "Polyurethane sealer".


Seam sealer - mastic-like substance.

--
Skipweasel.
In the beginning was the word.
And the word was Aardvark.


  #29   Report Post  
Pete C
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Fri, 5 Nov 2004 21:23:39 -0000, ":::Jerry::::"
wrote:


Try this URL (mind any line wrapping);
http://products3.3m.com/catalog/us/e...motive_afterma
rket/node_GSWMS8NB1Nbe/root_GST1T4S9TCgv/vroot_GSLPLPKL4Xge/gvel_6DTWTJQPBBg
l/command_AbcPageHandler/theme_us_aad_3_0


Hi,

Try round the URL if your newsreader is up to it.

cheers,
Pete.
  #30   Report Post  
:::Jerry::::
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
:::Jerry:::: wrote:
No they don't. As I say, get a clue, stop trying to be a moron ! The

only
door I've seen come out of a factory with 'Duck' type tape as the means

of
sealing the door pad in the last 25 or more years was the original Mini.


The original Mini didn't have a door pad as such - sliding windows. The
trim was simply wedged up against the inner of the door skin.


I Know, and as soon as I sent the message I though that someone would
comment on what I said, the original Mini apposed to the BMW Mini is what I
meant.

Trouble is, I can't think of the new Mini as a Mini, horrid things, I would
love to se some of the repair times for even basic items....




  #31   Report Post  
Mike G
 
Posts: n/a
Default


":::Jerry::::" wrote in message
...

"Mike G" wrote in message
...


No they don't. As I say, get a clue, stop trying to be a moron ! The only
door I've seen come out of a factory with 'Duck' type tape as the means of
sealing the door pad in the last 25 or more years was the original Mini.

Your condescending, self righteous and rude attitude doesn't go down

well
I
assure you.


Nor does you trying to wrap your bull -**** up as fact when you prove time
and time again that you are nothing but a clueless idiot when it comes to
even basic information.

There's nothing wrong with disagreeing, but do you have to be so

unpleasant
about it?
You may believe you are an expert on all subjects relating to car
maintenance, but your posts clearly show you're not.
In fact you sound like J.E.L under a different name. Like you he knew it
all.


POP KETTLE BLACK....


You sure you're not J.E.L masquerading under a different name?
Mike.

  #32   Report Post  
Phil
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Fri, 05 Nov 2004 22:04:03 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Phil wrote:
Just re-read yours (Dave) and perhaps I missed the point. In the Pug,
which is only 3 years old, the rear door only has one piercing in the
membrane for the window winder handle, and that is sealed by a neat
circle of caulk round it. Also the membrane is well sealed all the way
round with a caulk bead. On the Cav and Rover there were lots of
unsealed holes but they are all fairly high up. I covered them all up
with either duct tape or a blob of silicone.


How is the door trim attached? I'd have thought this would be the weak
point?


Err, you having concentration problems Dave??

Like I said, 20:18:04 post,
...

"The plastic press-stud things that fix the outer trim are, I guess,
supposed to be a tight fit and hopefully won't let a significant stream
through. It's a point to watch for sure."

So it's fixed with plastic press-stud things - on all 3 cars. :-)

--
Phil
Replace NOSPAM with bigfoot to reply
  #33   Report Post  
:::Jerry::::
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Phil" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 5 Nov 2004 21:23:39 -0000, ":::Jerry::::"
wrote:

snip

Try this URL (mind any line wrapping);

http://products3.3m.com/catalog/us/e...motive_afterma

rket/node_GSWMS8NB1Nbe/root_GST1T4S9TCgv/vroot_GSLPLPKL4Xge/gvel_6DTWTJQPBBg
l/command_AbcPageHandler/theme_us_aad_3_0


Right, now I know what you are talking about. Without having actually
used this stuff, I can't be sure, but it doesn't look right to me for
adhering to polythene....

snip

Well it (or one of the other makes) will do what require [1], but it's up to
you if you wish to believe me or not, just to say that I've used the stuff
to 'glue' far more demanding things than a door pad sealing membrane....

[1] types / makes do not set like a rubber but style semi soft, both will do
what you require.


  #34   Report Post  
Phil
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Sat, 6 Nov 2004 00:19:48 -0000, ":::Jerry::::"
wrote:


"Phil" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 5 Nov 2004 21:23:39 -0000, ":::Jerry::::"
wrote:

snip

Try this URL (mind any line wrapping);

http://products3.3m.com/catalog/us/e...motive_afterma

rket/node_GSWMS8NB1Nbe/root_GST1T4S9TCgv/vroot_GSLPLPKL4Xge/gvel_6DTWTJQPBBg
l/command_AbcPageHandler/theme_us_aad_3_0


Right, now I know what you are talking about. Without having actually
used this stuff, I can't be sure, but it doesn't look right to me for
adhering to polythene....

snip

Well it (or one of the other makes) will do what require [1], but it's up to
you if you wish to believe me or not, just to say that I've used the stuff
to 'glue' far more demanding things than a door pad sealing membrane....


[1] types / makes do not set like a rubber but style semi soft, both will do
what you require.


It's not a question of believing you, just of understanding the basis of
your recommendation. Nowhere have you said you have actually used it on
polythene type membranes, and polythene is one of the most difficult
substances to glue. The vast majority of adhesives will not stick to it.

--
Phil
Replace NOSPAM with bigfoot to reply
  #35   Report Post  
:::Jerry::::
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Phil" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 6 Nov 2004 00:19:48 -0000, ":::Jerry::::"
wrote:


"Phil" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 5 Nov 2004 21:23:39 -0000, ":::Jerry::::"
wrote:

snip

Try this URL (mind any line wrapping);


http://products3.3m.com/catalog/us/e...motive_afterma


rket/node_GSWMS8NB1Nbe/root_GST1T4S9TCgv/vroot_GSLPLPKL4Xge/gvel_6DTWTJQPBBg
l/command_AbcPageHandler/theme_us_aad_3_0

Right, now I know what you are talking about. Without having actually
used this stuff, I can't be sure, but it doesn't look right to me for
adhering to polythene....

snip

Well it (or one of the other makes) will do what require [1], but it's

up to
you if you wish to believe me or not, just to say that I've used the

stuff
to 'glue' far more demanding things than a door pad sealing membrane....


[1] types / makes do not set like a rubber but style semi soft, both

will do
what you require.


It's not a question of believing you, just of understanding the basis of
your recommendation. Nowhere have you said you have actually used it on
polythene type membranes, and polythene is one of the most difficult
substances to glue. The vast majority of adhesives will not stick to it.


But this is NOT an adhesive, it's a seam sealer which is more like a liquid
rubber before it 'sets' (like rubber). Even if it doesn't 'glue' the
membrane it will form a seal. I really can't see any reason why it won't do
as you need.




  #36   Report Post  
Pete C
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Sat, 06 Nov 2004 00:05:04 GMT, Phil
wrote:


Try this URL (mind any line wrapping);
http://products3.3m.com/catalog/us/e...motive_afterma
rket/node_GSWMS8NB1Nbe/root_GST1T4S9TCgv/vroot_GSLPLPKL4Xge/gvel_6DTWTJQPBBg
l/command_AbcPageHandler/theme_us_aad_3_0


Right, now I know what you are talking about. Without having actually
used this stuff, I can't be sure, but it doesn't look right to me for
adhering to polythene....

Variants say "can be smoothed to a featheredge with a wet finger and
sets to a firm, tough, rubber-like water resistant bead." "Paintable in
30 minutes". "Adheres well to clean, bare metal, primed metal and paint
surfaces. Skins over quickly. Low shrinkage. Can be painted within 20
minutes. Excellent tooling and sanding properties." "designed to seal
interior and exterior joints and seams. Adheres well to clean, bare
metal, primed metal and painted surfaces. " "easily thumbed into place
and smoothed with a finger. It may be painted immediately."

"Adheres well to primed surfaces *except acrylic lacquer*." "Available
in white and gray colors that when applied are *tack free* and paintable
in 30 min." (*My emphasis*).


Hi,

This one looks like the most promising:

http://products3.3m.com/catalog/us/en001/auto_marine_aero/automotive_aftermarket/node_GSCW9QZGQKbe/root_GST1T4S9TCgv/vroot_GSLPLPKL4Xge/gvel_6DTWTJQPBBgl/theme_us_aad_3_0/command_AbcPageHandler/output_html

Reading the MSDS and data sheet it looks like it is a non setting
polybutylene sealant, so doing a UK search on non setting butyl comes
up with some references:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=lang_en&q=site%3A.uk+butyl+mastic+ OR+sealant+OR+%22non+setting%22

I'd expect a glaziers or even a decoraters merchant would also carry a
sealant like this, or know where it can be obtained.

While looking at the 3M site I noticed a couple of adhesives that look
interesting, would save welding body panels sometimes

http://products3.3m.com/catalog/us/en001/auto_marine_aero/automotive_aftermarket/node_GSNPLCPK5Bbe/root_GST1T4S9TCgv/vroot_GSLPLPKL4Xge/gvel_6DTWTJQPBBgl/theme_us_aad_3_0/command_AbcPageHandler/output_html

http://products3.3m.com/catalog/us/en001/auto_marine_aero/automotive_aftermarket/node_GS17G9WRHPbe/root_GST1T4S9TCgv/vroot_GSLPLPKL4Xge/gvel_6DTWTJQPBBgl/theme_us_aad_3_0/command_AbcPageHandler/output_html

cheers,
Pete.
  #37   Report Post  
Dave Plowman (News)
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article ,
Phil wrote:
How is the door trim attached? I'd have thought this would be the weak
point?


Err, you having concentration problems Dave??


More comprehension problems.

Like I said, 20:18:04 post,
...


"The plastic press-stud things that fix the outer trim are, I guess,
supposed to be a tight fit and hopefully won't let a significant stream
through. It's a point to watch for sure."


Given that they'll be at near the lowest point in the door frame, I'd say
their sealing would be of prime importance.

The thing is that the bottom part of the door frame will be easily sealed,
being all steel, and will have large drain holes. Now the only problems
that could arise are if the water level can rise above this part, which
really shouldn't happen. So trying to seal the entire door so it could be
filled with water seems to me unlikely as well as unnecessary.

IMHO, the reason to seal the flexible liner is more one of draughts and
possibly noise rather than to prevent water leaks.

--
*Can vegetarians eat animal crackers?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
  #38   Report Post  
Dave Plowman (News)
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article ,
Phil wrote:
It's not a question of believing you, just of understanding the basis of
your recommendation. Nowhere have you said you have actually used it on
polythene type membranes, and polythene is one of the most difficult
substances to glue. The vast majority of adhesives will not stick to it.


Evostik type glues work ok for this application. Might 'melt' some types
of paint, though, but not, I'd say, modern ones.

--
*I never drink anything stronger than gin before breakfast *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
  #39   Report Post  
Phil
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Sat, 6 Nov 2004 09:28:58 -0000, ":::Jerry::::"
wrote:


"Phil" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 6 Nov 2004 00:19:48 -0000, ":::Jerry::::"
wrote:


"Phil" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 5 Nov 2004 21:23:39 -0000, ":::Jerry::::"
wrote:

snip

Try this URL (mind any line wrapping);


http://products3.3m.com/catalog/us/e...motive_afterma


rket/node_GSWMS8NB1Nbe/root_GST1T4S9TCgv/vroot_GSLPLPKL4Xge/gvel_6DTWTJQPBBg
l/command_AbcPageHandler/theme_us_aad_3_0

Right, now I know what you are talking about. Without having actually
used this stuff, I can't be sure, but it doesn't look right to me for
adhering to polythene....

snip

Well it (or one of the other makes) will do what require [1], but it's

up to
you if you wish to believe me or not, just to say that I've used the

stuff
to 'glue' far more demanding things than a door pad sealing membrane....


[1] types / makes do not set like a rubber but style semi soft, both

will do
what you require.


It's not a question of believing you, just of understanding the basis of
your recommendation. Nowhere have you said you have actually used it on
polythene type membranes, and polythene is one of the most difficult
substances to glue. The vast majority of adhesives will not stick to it.


But this is NOT an adhesive, it's a seam sealer which is more like a liquid
rubber before it 'sets' (like rubber). Even if it doesn't 'glue' the
membrane it will form a seal. I really can't see any reason why it won't do
as you need.


That may well be the case but as, I take it, you have not ever tried it
for sticking to polythene, I won't lash out my dosh to be the
guinea-pig. I still think a roll of double-sided vinyl/lino tape is my
best bet. Thanks for the suggestion and links anyway.

--
Phil
Replace NOSPAM with bigfoot to reply
  #40   Report Post  
Phil
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Sat, 06 Nov 2004 09:49:05 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Phil wrote:
It's not a question of believing you, just of understanding the basis of
your recommendation. Nowhere have you said you have actually used it on
polythene type membranes, and polythene is one of the most difficult
substances to glue. The vast majority of adhesives will not stick to it.


Evostik type glues work ok for this application. Might 'melt' some types
of paint, though, but not, I'd say, modern ones.


Yes, I have used it in the past an it does stick fine, but Evostik fails
the re-stick criteria. The original manufacturers adhesive stayed tacky
and you could peel off the membrane, and it will stick back down again.
But after 14 years it has finally hardened.

--
Phil
Replace NOSPAM with bigfoot to reply
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