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UK diy (uk.d-i-y) For the discussion of all topics related to diy (do-it-yourself) in the UK. All levels of experience and proficency are welcome to join in to ask questions or offer solutions. |
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#1
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Wet car carpets an the waterproof membrane in car doors
After many false trails I have narrowed down the cause of wet carpets in
our cars to rain leakage past the plastic membrane between the door trim panel and the door metalwork. I have to confess that for years I thought the membrane was for keeping out draughts, but I know see it forms a critical part of a cunning water drainage system. There is actually a shallow vertical channel pressed along the bottom of the door inner skin with a drain slot through the skin (see below in fixed font). The idea is that any water running down the compartment side of the door inner skin is supposed to run along this channel to the drain slot/s thence to the door innards, and then finally drain out through a hole in the very bottom of the door. This lower drain hole is outside of the main door weather seal. Any water that runs down the surface next to the door trim will drip out on the interior side of the weather seal and finish up on the carpet. The plastic membrane forms completes the channel in the door skin, and without the membrane being glued to the door below the indented channel the whole scheme fails and wet carpets are the result. Now the membrane is relatively delicate and has to be removed for several kinds of repair inside the door; e.g. central locking motors, electric window winders, door lock etc, so the original is stuck on with a tacky tape that allows several removal/refit operations while retaining a waterproof seal of membrane to the door skin. So at last my question: What is this adhesive and where can I get some? It needs to stick permanently to the metal door skin and be tacky to plastic sheeting, and impervious to water. A double-sided tape would be ideal, but a caulk, or adhesive would also be suitable. As you may guess the membranes in our cars have exhausted the tackiness and are now leaking, as evidenced by wet carpets and steamed up windows. t m r| | t m r| | t m r| Door | t m r| Section| t m r| | t m r| | Outside t m r| | Car t m r) == Channel | = door skin Interior t m rrr== Drain hole t = Trim Panel t m LX|r | m = Membrane t m LX|r | X = Adhesive LLLLLW|r | W = Weather seal L --- W|r | r = rain water intended path Carpet L/ |W\rrrrrrr / L = Leakage path ______L/ \W\_____ r == Lower drain hole Sill \_ r r Road -- Phil Replace NOSPAM with bigfoot to reply |
#2
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"Phil" wrote in message ... snip [ re the long winded question about car door membranes ] First off, what car is it, this might effect what should be used. Second, if you don't mind having to replace the plastic each time you remove the membrane then use PU sealer, but don't get it any where you don't want to stick other wise you'll end up bonding it to the door frame. Otherwise you could use spray on adhesive, which is a little more forgiving. |
#3
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On Thu, 4 Nov 2004 22:00:45 -0000, ":::Jerry::::"
wrote: "Phil" wrote in message ... snip [ re the long winded question about car door membranes ] Duh... thought it would be informative for those that don't know why their carpets are wet - took me ages to eliminate everything else. Can't please everyone, I suppose. First off, what car is it, this might effect what should be used. Doubt it. One's a peugeot 206 x-reg, another is cavalier mk II saloon 88 vintage (but only 60K mls), and a Rover 216 box shape (1989, but only 33K mls). They all have essentially the same system and all leak the same way. Second, if you don't mind having to replace the plastic each time you remove the membrane then use PU sealer, but don't get it any where you don't want to stick other wise you'll end up bonding it to the door frame. What's a PU sealer? Otherwise you could use spray on adhesive, which is a little more forgiving. Can you suggest a make/source? Are they tacky. -- Phil Replace NOSPAM with bigfoot to reply |
#4
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:::Jerry:::: wrote: "Phil" wrote in message ... snip [ re the long winded question about car door membranes ] First off, what car is it, this might effect what should be used. Second, if you don't mind having to replace the plastic each time you remove the membrane then use PU sealer, but don't get it any where you don't want to stick other wise you'll end up bonding it to the door frame. TBH I'd go for duct tape or similar, I've been told it's what the mechanics use at my Ford dealer... You can't often buy new membranes IME. Otherwise you could use spray on adhesive, which is a little more forgiving. 3M spray glue (bog standard type) won't glue door membranes to doors. |
#5
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On Thu, 4 Nov 2004 23:25:37 -0000, "Doki" wrote:
:::Jerry:::: wrote: "Phil" wrote in message ... snip [ re the long winded question about car door membranes ] First off, what car is it, this might effect what should be used. Second, if you don't mind having to replace the plastic each time you remove the membrane then use PU sealer, but don't get it any where you don't want to stick other wise you'll end up bonding it to the door frame. TBH I'd go for duct tape or similar, I've been told it's what the mechanics use at my Ford dealer... I used duct tape previously when I thought the membrane was just to keep out draughts. It is sort-of OK, but you really want the plastic to be sealed right below the drain channel. Just sticking it down round the edges results in water gathering at the bottom of the membrane which will be 1"-2" below the drain hole. Not healthy for the door skin. I'm sure its a common bodge though; after all, I did it myself until I really HAD to figure out where the water was getting in. You can't often buy new membranes IME. It's easy enough to make a new membrane out of a sheet of polythene. Helps if you have the old one as a template though. Peugeot sell them for a ridiculous sum; think it was IRO 30-40 pounds. Otherwise you could use spray on adhesive, which is a little more forgiving. 3M spray glue (bog standard type) won't glue door membranes to doors. Thanks - won't bother with that then. Being polythene-like, it will need something tacky to glue it. Phil The uk.d-i-y FAQ is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/ Remove NOSPAM from address to email me |
#6
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In article ,
Phil wrote: After many false trails I have narrowed down the cause of wet carpets in our cars to rain leakage past the plastic membrane between the door trim panel and the door metalwork. I have to confess that for years I thought the membrane was for keeping out draughts, but I know see it forms a critical part of a cunning water drainage system. There is actually a shallow vertical channel pressed along the bottom of the door inner skin with a drain slot through the skin (see below in fixed font). I'm intrigued. How is the membrane sealed? All the doors I've seen have fixings for the outer trim that couldn't be sealed. And holes for things like wires and door handles. I've always just considered it to be for the odd splash. -- *Happiness is seeing your mother-in-law on a milk carton Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#7
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"Doki" wrote in message ... :::Jerry:::: wrote: "Phil" wrote in message ... snip [ re the long winded question about car door membranes ] First off, what car is it, this might effect what should be used. Second, if you don't mind having to replace the plastic each time you remove the membrane then use PU sealer, but don't get it any where you don't want to stick other wise you'll end up bonding it to the door frame. TBH I'd go for duct tape or similar, I've been told it's what the mechanics use at my Ford dealer... You can't often buy new membranes IME. Yep. Duct tape is the way to go IMO. It's what I've always used without any problems, as long as you make sure the interior door skin is clean before sticking. Door skins can get surprisingly dusty. Enough to stop the duct tape sticking properly. Mike. |
#8
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"Phil" wrote in message ... On Thu, 4 Nov 2004 22:00:45 -0000, ":::Jerry::::" wrote: "Phil" wrote in message ... snip [ re the long winded question about car door membranes ] Duh... thought it would be informative for those that don't know why their carpets are wet - took me ages to eliminate everything else. Can't please everyone, I suppose. Sorry but when you deal with these things almost daily.... First off, what car is it, this might effect what should be used. Doubt it. One's a peugeot 206 x-reg, another is cavalier mk II saloon 88 vintage (but only 60K mls), and a Rover 216 box shape (1989, but only 33K mls). They all have essentially the same system and all leak the same way. Oh, right, no those models are more or less standard in their door weather proofing, but if they had been a newist Renualt then they don't use a membrane at all - the door pad is designed to be weather proof and they use a specail type of sealer to attach / seal the pad to the door frame. Second, if you don't mind having to replace the plastic each time you remove the membrane then use PU sealer, but don't get it any where you don't want to stick other wise you'll end up bonding it to the door frame. What's a PU sealer? Polyurethane sealer. Ask in any half decent motor factors, don't bother with places like halfwits, they will probably try and sealer you either silicon or mastic sealer. Otherwise you could use spray on adhesive, which is a little more forgiving. Can you suggest a make/source? Are they tacky. Yes, it's an adhesive (!), you can get it at motor factors as well. |
#9
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"Doki" wrote in message ... :::Jerry:::: wrote: "Phil" wrote in message ... snip [ re the long winded question about car door membranes ] First off, what car is it, this might effect what should be used. Second, if you don't mind having to replace the plastic each time you remove the membrane then use PU sealer, but don't get it any where you don't want to stick other wise you'll end up bonding it to the door frame. TBH I'd go for duct tape or similar, I've been told it's what the mechanics use at my Ford dealer... You can't often buy new membranes IME. If they are using Duck tape then they are bodging.... Otherwise you could use spray on adhesive, which is a little more forgiving. 3M spray glue (bog standard type) won't glue door membranes to doors. Total boll*x, yes it will. |
#10
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"Mike G" wrote in message ... "Doki" wrote in message ... :::Jerry:::: wrote: "Phil" wrote in message ... snip [ re the long winded question about car door membranes ] First off, what car is it, this might effect what should be used. Second, if you don't mind having to replace the plastic each time you remove the membrane then use PU sealer, but don't get it any where you don't want to stick other wise you'll end up bonding it to the door frame. TBH I'd go for duct tape or similar, I've been told it's what the mechanics use at my Ford dealer... You can't often buy new membranes IME. Yep. Duct tape is the way to go IMO. And is nothing but a bodge. It's what I've always used without any problems, as long as you make sure the interior door skin is clean before sticking. Oh do get a clue... Door skins can get surprisingly dusty. Enough to stop the duct tape sticking properly. But he is not trying to stick the membrane to the door skin (I hope...), do try and get a clue. :~(( |
#11
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"Mike G" wrote in message
... Door skins can get surprisingly dusty. Enough to stop the duct tape sticking properly. As an additional task whilst you're in there - buy some spray Waxoyl and liberally coat the door internal sheetwork (not anything where water runs, or mechanical). Works wonders on crap old cars where water *will* pool despite your best efforts - so should stave off rust indefinitely in a newer car... -- Ken Davidson DocDelete --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.788 / Virus Database: 533 - Release Date: 01/11/04 |
#12
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":::Jerry::::" wrote in message ... "Mike G" wrote in message ... "Doki" wrote in message ... :::Jerry:::: wrote: "Phil" wrote in message ... snip [ re the long winded question about car door membranes ] First off, what car is it, this might effect what should be used. Second, if you don't mind having to replace the plastic each time you remove the membrane then use PU sealer, but don't get it any where you don't want to stick other wise you'll end up bonding it to the door frame. TBH I'd go for duct tape or similar, I've been told it's what the mechanics use at my Ford dealer... You can't often buy new membranes IME. Yep. Duct tape is the way to go IMO. And is nothing but a bodge. It's what I've always used without any problems, as long as you make sure the interior door skin is clean before sticking. Oh do get a clue... Thaught you'd left. Obviously our misfortune that you haven't. You always seem more interested in making scathing remarks about the posts of others, rather than offering constructive advice yourself. Mike. |
#13
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"Mike G" wrote in message ... ":::Jerry::::" wrote in message ... "Mike G" wrote in message ... "Doki" wrote in message ... :::Jerry:::: wrote: "Phil" wrote in message ... snip [ re the long winded question about car door membranes ] First off, what car is it, this might effect what should be used. Second, if you don't mind having to replace the plastic each time you remove the membrane then use PU sealer, but don't get it any where you don't want to stick other wise you'll end up bonding it to the door frame. TBH I'd go for duct tape or similar, I've been told it's what the mechanics use at my Ford dealer... You can't often buy new membranes IME. Yep. Duct tape is the way to go IMO. And is nothing but a bodge. It's what I've always used without any problems, as long as you make sure the interior door skin is clean before sticking. Oh do get a clue... Thaught you'd left. Seem like you can't use your newsreader either.... Obviously our misfortune that you haven't. Oh do get a clue, stop trying to be a moron... You always seem more interested in making scathing remarks about the posts of others, rather than offering constructive advice yourself. Well considering I replied first and with the correct answer and all you could do is offer a bodge and show just how clueless you are about cars even though you bull-**** your way whilst 'trying' to show that you know the first thing . As I said, get a clue. |
#14
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On Fri, 5 Nov 2004 10:13:32 -0000, ":::Jerry::::"
wrote: "Doki" wrote in message ... :::Jerry:::: wrote: "Phil" wrote in message ... snip [ re the long winded question about car door membranes ] First off, what car is it, this might effect what should be used. Second, if you don't mind having to replace the plastic each time you remove the membrane then use PU sealer, but don't get it any where you don't want to stick other wise you'll end up bonding it to the door frame. TBH I'd go for duct tape or similar, I've been told it's what the mechanics use at my Ford dealer... You can't often buy new membranes IME. If they are using Duck tape then they are bodging.... Otherwise you could use spray on adhesive, which is a little more forgiving. 3M spray glue (bog standard type) won't glue door membranes to doors. Total boll*x, yes it will. As no one seems to know the proper answer, I am going to try double-sided lino tape. Shame Jerry could't be bothered to tell me what PU sealer is, or I could have considered that. Thanks for all your inputs - it's nice to know I'm not alone in not knowing what to use. -- Phil Replace NOSPAM with bigfoot to reply |
#15
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"Phil" wrote in message ... On Fri, 5 Nov 2004 10:13:32 -0000, ":::Jerry::::" wrote: "Doki" wrote in message ... :::Jerry:::: wrote: "Phil" wrote in message ... snip [ re the long winded question about car door membranes ] First off, what car is it, this might effect what should be used. Second, if you don't mind having to replace the plastic each time you remove the membrane then use PU sealer, but don't get it any where you don't want to stick other wise you'll end up bonding it to the door frame. TBH I'd go for duct tape or similar, I've been told it's what the mechanics use at my Ford dealer... You can't often buy new membranes IME. If they are using Duck tape then they are bodging.... Otherwise you could use spray on adhesive, which is a little more forgiving. 3M spray glue (bog standard type) won't glue door membranes to doors. Total boll*x, yes it will. As no one seems to know the proper answer, I am going to try double-sided lino tape. Shame Jerry could't be bothered to tell me what PU sealer is, or I could have considered that. I have, perhaps your news server hasn't received the message (yet), so I'll repost what I said in that reply. "Polyurethane sealer. Ask in any half decent motor factors, don't bother with places like halfwits, they will probably try and sealer you either silicon or mastic sealer." |
#16
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On Fri, 5 Nov 2004 12:36:45 -0000, ":::Jerry::::"
wrote: "Phil" wrote in message ... On Fri, 5 Nov 2004 10:13:32 -0000, ":::Jerry::::" wrote: "Doki" wrote in message ... :::Jerry:::: wrote: "Phil" wrote in message ... snip [ re the long winded question about car door membranes ] First off, what car is it, this might effect what should be used. Second, if you don't mind having to replace the plastic each time you remove the membrane then use PU sealer, but don't get it any where you don't want to stick other wise you'll end up bonding it to the door frame. TBH I'd go for duct tape or similar, I've been told it's what the mechanics use at my Ford dealer... You can't often buy new membranes IME. If they are using Duck tape then they are bodging.... Otherwise you could use spray on adhesive, which is a little more forgiving. 3M spray glue (bog standard type) won't glue door membranes to doors. Total boll*x, yes it will. As no one seems to know the proper answer, I am going to try double-sided lino tape. Shame Jerry could't be bothered to tell me what PU sealer is, or I could have considered that. I have, perhaps your news server hasn't received the message (yet), so I'll repost what I said in that reply. Nope, it hasn't turned up in either group so far. "Polyurethane sealer. Ask in any half decent motor factors, don't bother with places like halfwits, they will probably try and sealer you either silicon or mastic sealer." What form is it - spray, caulk, glue, tape, or what? Is it tacky? -- Phil Replace NOSPAM with bigfoot to reply |
#17
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On Thu, 04 Nov 2004 21:28:02 GMT, Phil
wrote: So at last my question: What is this adhesive and where can I get some? It needs to stick permanently to the metal door skin and be tacky to plastic sheeting, and impervious to water. A double-sided tape would be ideal, but a caulk, or adhesive would also be suitable. Hi, In a pinch try Boss White, plumbers mait, glazing putty etc. If getting a seam sealer make sure it's non setting mastic, otherwise it could be the complete opposite! A local bodyshop might sell you a tube or tell you where it can be bought. cheers, Pete. |
#18
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The drivers side carpet used to become sodden on an old Vauxhall Astra
my brother owned. We tried everything to work out where all this water was coming from - siliconed around the windcsreen, took up the carpet etc. to no avail. In the end it was just some mud/dirt lodged along the A-pillar near the hinges. The water which should have been draining down onto the sill was being diverted into the cabin. |
#19
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"Phil" wrote in message ... On Fri, 5 Nov 2004 12:36:45 -0000, ":::Jerry::::" wrote: snip "Polyurethane sealer. Ask in any half decent motor factors, don't bother with places like halfwits, they will probably try and sealer you either silicon or mastic sealer." What form is it - spray, caulk, glue, tape, or what? Is it tacky? Use it via a caulking gun, and yes it is sticky. |
#20
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"Pete C" wrote in message ... On Thu, 04 Nov 2004 21:28:02 GMT, Phil wrote: So at last my question: What is this adhesive and where can I get some? It needs to stick permanently to the metal door skin and be tacky to plastic sheeting, and impervious to water. A double-sided tape would be ideal, but a caulk, or adhesive would also be suitable. Hi, In a pinch try Boss White, plumbers mait, glazing putty etc. If What utter tosh ! :~( getting a seam sealer make sure it's non setting mastic, otherwise it could be the complete opposite! snip That might have been correct 25 years ago.... |
#21
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":::Jerry::::" wrote in message ... "Mike G" wrote in message ... Yep. Duct tape is the way to go IMO. And is nothing but a bodge. It's what I've always used without any problems, as long as you make sure the interior door skin is clean before sticking. Oh do get a clue... Thaught you'd left. Seem like you can't use your newsreader either.... Obviously our misfortune that you haven't. Oh do get a clue, stop trying to be a moron... You always seem more interested in making scathing remarks about the posts of others, rather than offering constructive advice yourself. Well considering I replied first and with the correct answer and all you could do is offer a bodge and show just how clueless you are about cars even though you bull-**** your way whilst 'trying' to show that you know the first thing . As I said, get a clue. Seeing as many manufacturers themselves use a tape similar to duct tape, how can it be a bodge? Your condescending, self righteous and rude attitude doesn't go down well I assure you. There's nothing wrong with disagreeing, but do you have to be so unpleasant about it? You may believe you are an expert on all subjects relating to car maintenance, but your posts clearly show you're not. In fact you sound like J.E.L under a different name. Like you he knew it all. Mike. |
#22
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On Fri, 05 Nov 2004 00:15:35 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote: In article , Phil wrote: After many false trails I have narrowed down the cause of wet carpets in our cars to rain leakage past the plastic membrane between the door trim panel and the door metalwork. I have to confess that for years I thought the membrane was for keeping out draughts, but I know see it forms a critical part of a cunning water drainage system. There is actually a shallow vertical channel pressed along the bottom of the door inner skin with a drain slot through the skin (see below in fixed font). I'm intrigued. How is the membrane sealed? All the doors I've seen have fixings for the outer trim that couldn't be sealed. And holes for things like wires and door handles. I've always just considered it to be for the odd splash. Didn't my ascii art show up? Like you I didn't realise the importance of it for water sealing, but as I say, all 3 cars have enough rain getting in to soak the carpet, and this is with them just parked outside when it rains heavy. If you look carefully at the inner skin pressing you should see a shallow 1/2" wide channel running across the bottom. The membrane is glued immediately below that so any water running down is caught and runs along the channel to its lowest point where a hole is punched through the skin. this routes the water to the door insides where it finds its way out through drain holes at the bottom. This is how it is in the Cav and Rover. The Pug 206 is a bit different and more robust (potentially, although mine failed!), see my previous post. When the car is parked on the camber it is invariably the uphill side that leaks. Water must be dripping past the outer window seal, running down the glass inside the door and dripping off that onto the inner skin. From there it presumably finds its way through the numerous piercings you mention. The plastic press-stud things that fix the outer trim are, I guess, supposed to be a tight fit and hopefully won't let a significant stream through. It's a point to watch for sure. -- Phil Replace NOSPAM with bigfoot to reply |
#23
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On Fri, 05 Nov 2004 20:11:24 GMT, Phil wrote:
On Fri, 05 Nov 2004 00:15:35 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote: In article , Phil wrote: After many false trails I have narrowed down the cause of wet carpets in our cars to rain leakage past the plastic membrane between the door trim panel and the door metalwork. I have to confess that for years I thought the membrane was for keeping out draughts, but I know see it forms a critical part of a cunning water drainage system. There is actually a shallow vertical channel pressed along the bottom of the door inner skin with a drain slot through the skin (see below in fixed font). I'm intrigued. How is the membrane sealed? All the doors I've seen have fixings for the outer trim that couldn't be sealed. And holes for things like wires and door handles. I've always just considered it to be for the odd splash. Didn't my ascii art show up? Like you I didn't realise the importance of it for water sealing, but as I say, all 3 cars have enough rain getting in to soak the carpet, and this is with them just parked outside when it rains heavy. If you look carefully at the inner skin pressing you should see a shallow 1/2" wide channel running across the bottom. The membrane is glued immediately below that so any water running down is caught and runs along the channel to its lowest point where a hole is punched through the skin. this routes the water to the door insides where it finds its way out through drain holes at the bottom. This is how it is in the Cav and Rover. The Pug 206 is a bit different and more robust (potentially, although mine failed!), see my previous post. When the car is parked on the camber it is invariably the uphill side that leaks. Water must be dripping past the outer window seal, running down the glass inside the door and dripping off that onto the inner skin. From there it presumably finds its way through the numerous piercings you mention. The plastic press-stud things that fix the outer trim are, I guess, supposed to be a tight fit and hopefully won't let a significant stream through. It's a point to watch for sure. Just re-read yours (Dave) and perhaps I missed the point. In the Pug, which is only 3 years old, the rear door only has one piercing in the membrane for the window winder handle, and that is sealed by a neat circle of caulk round it. Also the membrane is well sealed all the way round with a caulk bead. On the Cav and Rover there were lots of unsealed holes but they are all fairly high up. I covered them all up with either duct tape or a blob of silicone. -- Phil Replace NOSPAM with bigfoot to reply |
#24
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"Mike G" wrote in message ... ":::Jerry::::" wrote in message ... "Mike G" wrote in message ... Yep. Duct tape is the way to go IMO. And is nothing but a bodge. It's what I've always used without any problems, as long as you make sure the interior door skin is clean before sticking. Oh do get a clue... Thaught you'd left. Seem like you can't use your newsreader either.... Obviously our misfortune that you haven't. Oh do get a clue, stop trying to be a moron... You always seem more interested in making scathing remarks about the posts of others, rather than offering constructive advice yourself. Well considering I replied first and with the correct answer and all you could do is offer a bodge and show just how clueless you are about cars even though you bull-**** your way whilst 'trying' to show that you know the first thing . As I said, get a clue. Seeing as many manufacturers themselves use a tape similar to duct tape, how can it be a bodge? No they don't. As I say, get a clue, stop trying to be a moron ! The only door I've seen come out of a factory with 'Duck' type tape as the means of sealing the door pad in the last 25 or more years was the original Mini. Your condescending, self righteous and rude attitude doesn't go down well I assure you. Nor does you trying to wrap your bull -**** up as fact when you prove time and time again that you are nothing but a clueless idiot when it comes to even basic information. There's nothing wrong with disagreeing, but do you have to be so unpleasant about it? You may believe you are an expert on all subjects relating to car maintenance, but your posts clearly show you're not. In fact you sound like J.E.L under a different name. Like you he knew it all. POP KETTLE BLACK.... |
#25
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In article ,
:::Jerry:::: wrote: If they are using Duck tape then they are bodging.... That's how my SD1 left the factory. So you're probably right. -- *Why do overlook and oversee mean opposite things? Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#26
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In article ,
Phil wrote: Just re-read yours (Dave) and perhaps I missed the point. In the Pug, which is only 3 years old, the rear door only has one piercing in the membrane for the window winder handle, and that is sealed by a neat circle of caulk round it. Also the membrane is well sealed all the way round with a caulk bead. On the Cav and Rover there were lots of unsealed holes but they are all fairly high up. I covered them all up with either duct tape or a blob of silicone. How is the door trim attached? I'd have thought this would be the weak point? -- *A fine is a tax for doing wrong. A tax is a fine for doing well. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#27
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In article ,
:::Jerry:::: wrote: No they don't. As I say, get a clue, stop trying to be a moron ! The only door I've seen come out of a factory with 'Duck' type tape as the means of sealing the door pad in the last 25 or more years was the original Mini. The original Mini didn't have a door pad as such - sliding windows. The trim was simply wedged up against the inner of the door skin. In theory, with no wind up windows, no water can get 'inside' the door. -- *When I'm not in my right mind, my left mind gets pretty crowded * Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#28
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The message
from Phil contains these words: I'm still puzzled by "Polyurethane sealer". Seam sealer - mastic-like substance. -- Skipweasel. In the beginning was the word. And the word was Aardvark. |
#29
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On Fri, 5 Nov 2004 21:23:39 -0000, ":::Jerry::::"
wrote: Try this URL (mind any line wrapping); http://products3.3m.com/catalog/us/e...motive_afterma rket/node_GSWMS8NB1Nbe/root_GST1T4S9TCgv/vroot_GSLPLPKL4Xge/gvel_6DTWTJQPBBg l/command_AbcPageHandler/theme_us_aad_3_0 Hi, Try round the URL if your newsreader is up to it. cheers, Pete. |
#30
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"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message ... In article , :::Jerry:::: wrote: No they don't. As I say, get a clue, stop trying to be a moron ! The only door I've seen come out of a factory with 'Duck' type tape as the means of sealing the door pad in the last 25 or more years was the original Mini. The original Mini didn't have a door pad as such - sliding windows. The trim was simply wedged up against the inner of the door skin. I Know, and as soon as I sent the message I though that someone would comment on what I said, the original Mini apposed to the BMW Mini is what I meant. Trouble is, I can't think of the new Mini as a Mini, horrid things, I would love to se some of the repair times for even basic items.... |
#31
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":::Jerry::::" wrote in message ... "Mike G" wrote in message ... No they don't. As I say, get a clue, stop trying to be a moron ! The only door I've seen come out of a factory with 'Duck' type tape as the means of sealing the door pad in the last 25 or more years was the original Mini. Your condescending, self righteous and rude attitude doesn't go down well I assure you. Nor does you trying to wrap your bull -**** up as fact when you prove time and time again that you are nothing but a clueless idiot when it comes to even basic information. There's nothing wrong with disagreeing, but do you have to be so unpleasant about it? You may believe you are an expert on all subjects relating to car maintenance, but your posts clearly show you're not. In fact you sound like J.E.L under a different name. Like you he knew it all. POP KETTLE BLACK.... You sure you're not J.E.L masquerading under a different name? Mike. |
#32
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On Fri, 05 Nov 2004 22:04:03 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote: In article , Phil wrote: Just re-read yours (Dave) and perhaps I missed the point. In the Pug, which is only 3 years old, the rear door only has one piercing in the membrane for the window winder handle, and that is sealed by a neat circle of caulk round it. Also the membrane is well sealed all the way round with a caulk bead. On the Cav and Rover there were lots of unsealed holes but they are all fairly high up. I covered them all up with either duct tape or a blob of silicone. How is the door trim attached? I'd have thought this would be the weak point? Err, you having concentration problems Dave?? Like I said, 20:18:04 post, ... "The plastic press-stud things that fix the outer trim are, I guess, supposed to be a tight fit and hopefully won't let a significant stream through. It's a point to watch for sure." So it's fixed with plastic press-stud things - on all 3 cars. :-) -- Phil Replace NOSPAM with bigfoot to reply |
#33
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"Phil" wrote in message ... On Fri, 5 Nov 2004 21:23:39 -0000, ":::Jerry::::" wrote: snip Try this URL (mind any line wrapping); http://products3.3m.com/catalog/us/e...motive_afterma rket/node_GSWMS8NB1Nbe/root_GST1T4S9TCgv/vroot_GSLPLPKL4Xge/gvel_6DTWTJQPBBg l/command_AbcPageHandler/theme_us_aad_3_0 Right, now I know what you are talking about. Without having actually used this stuff, I can't be sure, but it doesn't look right to me for adhering to polythene.... snip Well it (or one of the other makes) will do what require [1], but it's up to you if you wish to believe me or not, just to say that I've used the stuff to 'glue' far more demanding things than a door pad sealing membrane.... [1] types / makes do not set like a rubber but style semi soft, both will do what you require. |
#34
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On Sat, 6 Nov 2004 00:19:48 -0000, ":::Jerry::::"
wrote: "Phil" wrote in message ... On Fri, 5 Nov 2004 21:23:39 -0000, ":::Jerry::::" wrote: snip Try this URL (mind any line wrapping); http://products3.3m.com/catalog/us/e...motive_afterma rket/node_GSWMS8NB1Nbe/root_GST1T4S9TCgv/vroot_GSLPLPKL4Xge/gvel_6DTWTJQPBBg l/command_AbcPageHandler/theme_us_aad_3_0 Right, now I know what you are talking about. Without having actually used this stuff, I can't be sure, but it doesn't look right to me for adhering to polythene.... snip Well it (or one of the other makes) will do what require [1], but it's up to you if you wish to believe me or not, just to say that I've used the stuff to 'glue' far more demanding things than a door pad sealing membrane.... [1] types / makes do not set like a rubber but style semi soft, both will do what you require. It's not a question of believing you, just of understanding the basis of your recommendation. Nowhere have you said you have actually used it on polythene type membranes, and polythene is one of the most difficult substances to glue. The vast majority of adhesives will not stick to it. -- Phil Replace NOSPAM with bigfoot to reply |
#35
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"Phil" wrote in message ... On Sat, 6 Nov 2004 00:19:48 -0000, ":::Jerry::::" wrote: "Phil" wrote in message ... On Fri, 5 Nov 2004 21:23:39 -0000, ":::Jerry::::" wrote: snip Try this URL (mind any line wrapping); http://products3.3m.com/catalog/us/e...motive_afterma rket/node_GSWMS8NB1Nbe/root_GST1T4S9TCgv/vroot_GSLPLPKL4Xge/gvel_6DTWTJQPBBg l/command_AbcPageHandler/theme_us_aad_3_0 Right, now I know what you are talking about. Without having actually used this stuff, I can't be sure, but it doesn't look right to me for adhering to polythene.... snip Well it (or one of the other makes) will do what require [1], but it's up to you if you wish to believe me or not, just to say that I've used the stuff to 'glue' far more demanding things than a door pad sealing membrane.... [1] types / makes do not set like a rubber but style semi soft, both will do what you require. It's not a question of believing you, just of understanding the basis of your recommendation. Nowhere have you said you have actually used it on polythene type membranes, and polythene is one of the most difficult substances to glue. The vast majority of adhesives will not stick to it. But this is NOT an adhesive, it's a seam sealer which is more like a liquid rubber before it 'sets' (like rubber). Even if it doesn't 'glue' the membrane it will form a seal. I really can't see any reason why it won't do as you need. |
#36
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On Sat, 06 Nov 2004 00:05:04 GMT, Phil
wrote: Try this URL (mind any line wrapping); http://products3.3m.com/catalog/us/e...motive_afterma rket/node_GSWMS8NB1Nbe/root_GST1T4S9TCgv/vroot_GSLPLPKL4Xge/gvel_6DTWTJQPBBg l/command_AbcPageHandler/theme_us_aad_3_0 Right, now I know what you are talking about. Without having actually used this stuff, I can't be sure, but it doesn't look right to me for adhering to polythene.... Variants say "can be smoothed to a featheredge with a wet finger and sets to a firm, tough, rubber-like water resistant bead." "Paintable in 30 minutes". "Adheres well to clean, bare metal, primed metal and paint surfaces. Skins over quickly. Low shrinkage. Can be painted within 20 minutes. Excellent tooling and sanding properties." "designed to seal interior and exterior joints and seams. Adheres well to clean, bare metal, primed metal and painted surfaces. " "easily thumbed into place and smoothed with a finger. It may be painted immediately." "Adheres well to primed surfaces *except acrylic lacquer*." "Available in white and gray colors that when applied are *tack free* and paintable in 30 min." (*My emphasis*). Hi, This one looks like the most promising: http://products3.3m.com/catalog/us/en001/auto_marine_aero/automotive_aftermarket/node_GSCW9QZGQKbe/root_GST1T4S9TCgv/vroot_GSLPLPKL4Xge/gvel_6DTWTJQPBBgl/theme_us_aad_3_0/command_AbcPageHandler/output_html Reading the MSDS and data sheet it looks like it is a non setting polybutylene sealant, so doing a UK search on non setting butyl comes up with some references: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=lang_en&q=site%3A.uk+butyl+mastic+ OR+sealant+OR+%22non+setting%22 I'd expect a glaziers or even a decoraters merchant would also carry a sealant like this, or know where it can be obtained. While looking at the 3M site I noticed a couple of adhesives that look interesting, would save welding body panels sometimes http://products3.3m.com/catalog/us/en001/auto_marine_aero/automotive_aftermarket/node_GSNPLCPK5Bbe/root_GST1T4S9TCgv/vroot_GSLPLPKL4Xge/gvel_6DTWTJQPBBgl/theme_us_aad_3_0/command_AbcPageHandler/output_html http://products3.3m.com/catalog/us/en001/auto_marine_aero/automotive_aftermarket/node_GS17G9WRHPbe/root_GST1T4S9TCgv/vroot_GSLPLPKL4Xge/gvel_6DTWTJQPBBgl/theme_us_aad_3_0/command_AbcPageHandler/output_html cheers, Pete. |
#37
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In article ,
Phil wrote: How is the door trim attached? I'd have thought this would be the weak point? Err, you having concentration problems Dave?? More comprehension problems. Like I said, 20:18:04 post, ... "The plastic press-stud things that fix the outer trim are, I guess, supposed to be a tight fit and hopefully won't let a significant stream through. It's a point to watch for sure." Given that they'll be at near the lowest point in the door frame, I'd say their sealing would be of prime importance. The thing is that the bottom part of the door frame will be easily sealed, being all steel, and will have large drain holes. Now the only problems that could arise are if the water level can rise above this part, which really shouldn't happen. So trying to seal the entire door so it could be filled with water seems to me unlikely as well as unnecessary. IMHO, the reason to seal the flexible liner is more one of draughts and possibly noise rather than to prevent water leaks. -- *Can vegetarians eat animal crackers? Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#38
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In article ,
Phil wrote: It's not a question of believing you, just of understanding the basis of your recommendation. Nowhere have you said you have actually used it on polythene type membranes, and polythene is one of the most difficult substances to glue. The vast majority of adhesives will not stick to it. Evostik type glues work ok for this application. Might 'melt' some types of paint, though, but not, I'd say, modern ones. -- *I never drink anything stronger than gin before breakfast * Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#39
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On Sat, 6 Nov 2004 09:28:58 -0000, ":::Jerry::::"
wrote: "Phil" wrote in message ... On Sat, 6 Nov 2004 00:19:48 -0000, ":::Jerry::::" wrote: "Phil" wrote in message ... On Fri, 5 Nov 2004 21:23:39 -0000, ":::Jerry::::" wrote: snip Try this URL (mind any line wrapping); http://products3.3m.com/catalog/us/e...motive_afterma rket/node_GSWMS8NB1Nbe/root_GST1T4S9TCgv/vroot_GSLPLPKL4Xge/gvel_6DTWTJQPBBg l/command_AbcPageHandler/theme_us_aad_3_0 Right, now I know what you are talking about. Without having actually used this stuff, I can't be sure, but it doesn't look right to me for adhering to polythene.... snip Well it (or one of the other makes) will do what require [1], but it's up to you if you wish to believe me or not, just to say that I've used the stuff to 'glue' far more demanding things than a door pad sealing membrane.... [1] types / makes do not set like a rubber but style semi soft, both will do what you require. It's not a question of believing you, just of understanding the basis of your recommendation. Nowhere have you said you have actually used it on polythene type membranes, and polythene is one of the most difficult substances to glue. The vast majority of adhesives will not stick to it. But this is NOT an adhesive, it's a seam sealer which is more like a liquid rubber before it 'sets' (like rubber). Even if it doesn't 'glue' the membrane it will form a seal. I really can't see any reason why it won't do as you need. That may well be the case but as, I take it, you have not ever tried it for sticking to polythene, I won't lash out my dosh to be the guinea-pig. I still think a roll of double-sided vinyl/lino tape is my best bet. Thanks for the suggestion and links anyway. -- Phil Replace NOSPAM with bigfoot to reply |
#40
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On Sat, 06 Nov 2004 09:49:05 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote: In article , Phil wrote: It's not a question of believing you, just of understanding the basis of your recommendation. Nowhere have you said you have actually used it on polythene type membranes, and polythene is one of the most difficult substances to glue. The vast majority of adhesives will not stick to it. Evostik type glues work ok for this application. Might 'melt' some types of paint, though, but not, I'd say, modern ones. Yes, I have used it in the past an it does stick fine, but Evostik fails the re-stick criteria. The original manufacturers adhesive stayed tacky and you could peel off the membrane, and it will stick back down again. But after 14 years it has finally hardened. -- Phil Replace NOSPAM with bigfoot to reply |
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