Evening folks,

I'm building some fitted wardrobes in some alcoves in a bedroom in my
house and having nearly finished the exterior carcasses and internal
shelves etc I can no longer ignore the perplexing question of making
the doors (perhaps I should have thought about this up front before I
started .... but anyway....)

I am considering using MDF for the doors since (a) it's cheap and (b)
it's easy to work with (allegedly).

Firstly, I have heard that there are available certain brands of MDF
that are free from urea formaldehyde - does anyone know of any brand
names and/or stockists of such MDF in the UK and how does its price
compare with ordinary MDF. Alternatively, I have "heard" that a good
few coats of oil based paint (on top of primer/base coats naturally)
will seal ordinary MDF to render it "safe(r)". Quite how much it
seals the wood is another question but I guess "common sense" would
suggest that it may arrest the rate at which any nasty gases leach
into the atmosphere - but by how much and how safe is probably
anyone's guess. Does anyone else have any suggestions and or advice
that I can add to my existing stock of conflicting opinions and
general confusion ?

Secondly, concerning the actual construction of the doors themselves,
the doors are to fit a gap approximately 60" wide and 70" high so I
was contemplating making a pair of bi-folding doors comprising four
"half" doors approx. 15" wide per half-door. I want to give them a
framed and panelled appearance - just simple square edged frames - no
fancy mouldings - so rather than buy square section wood mouldings I
was considering using 6mm MDF sawn into long strips say 2"-3" wide and
then gluing these to the main door panels which would themselves be
12mm MDF (Apologies for mixing metric and Imperial units). My
questions concerning the door construction are :-

(1) Gluing the false frames to the panels :- does MDF-MDF glue well
face side to face side ? Is ordinary wood glue suitable for this task
?

(2) Hinges:- I will be using ordinary hinges screwed into the edges of
the doors and to the wardrobe door frame. I have heard that MDF does
not take screws too well - does anyone have any advice for how to
obtain a good secure fixing ? Even 12mm MDF seems to be very heavy
stuff and I am concerned that the screw size permitted by the hole
size of the hinges may not be up to the job. I am precluded from using
"Blum" type hinges since the front of the wardrobe consists of a flat
outer frame of 3"x1" (nominal size) inside which the doors will be
hung - thus the door edges need to be hinged to the inside vertical
edges of this frame - as opposed to kitchen cupboard type construction
where the side of the carcass is at 90 degrees to the door face and
allows the "blum" type hinges to be used (I hope you see what I mean -
I guess a diagram would help - but an ASCII diagram would probably
just look incomprehensible).

(2a) Is 12mm MDF thick enough to take screws of a reasonable enough
size to support the weight of two 15" wide by 70" high doors.

I hope I have described my problem in a reasonably comprehensible
fashion. I would be grateful for any advice any uk-diy readers can
provide including alternative methods of constucting the doors (NB
simple/quick methods - i.e. mortice/tenoned frame and panel type
construction is out of the question).

Anyway, thanks in advance for any advice anyone can provide,

Gary

gary watson wrote in message ...

Evening folks,

I'm building some fitted wardrobes in some alcoves in a bedroom in my
house and having nearly finished the exterior carcasses and internal
shelves etc I can no longer ignore the perplexing question of making
the doors (perhaps I should have thought about this up front before I
started .... but anyway....)

I am considering using MDF for the doors since (a) it's cheap and (b)
it's easy to work with (allegedly).

Firstly, I have heard that there are available certain brands of MDF
that are free from urea formaldehyde - does anyone know of any brand
names and/or stockists of such MDF in the UK and how does its price
compare with ordinary MDF. Alternatively, I have "heard" that a good
few coats of oil based paint (on top of primer/base coats naturally)
will seal ordinary MDF to render it "safe(r)". Quite how much it
seals the wood is another question but I guess "common sense" would
suggest that it may arrest the rate at which any nasty gases leach
into the atmosphere - but by how much and how safe is probably
anyone's guess. Does anyone else have any suggestions and or advice
that I can add to my existing stock of conflicting opinions and
general confusion ?

Secondly, concerning the actual construction of the doors themselves,
the doors are to fit a gap approximately 60" wide and 70" high so I
was contemplating making a pair of bi-folding doors comprising four
"half" doors approx. 15" wide per half-door. I want to give them a
framed and panelled appearance - just simple square edged frames - no
fancy mouldings - so rather than buy square section wood mouldings I
was considering using 6mm MDF sawn into long strips say 2"-3" wide and
then gluing these to the main door panels which would themselves be
12mm MDF (Apologies for mixing metric and Imperial units). My
questions concerning the door construction are :-

(1) Gluing the false frames to the panels :- does MDF-MDF glue well
face side to face side ? Is ordinary wood glue suitable for this task
?

(2) Hinges:- I will be using ordinary hinges screwed into the edges of
the doors and to the wardrobe door frame. I have heard that MDF does
not take screws too well - does anyone have any advice for how to
obtain a good secure fixing ? Even 12mm MDF seems to be very heavy
stuff and I am concerned that the screw size permitted by the hole
size of the hinges may not be up to the job. I am precluded from using
"Blum" type hinges since the front of the wardrobe consists of a flat
outer frame of 3"x1" (nominal size) inside which the doors will be
hung - thus the door edges need to be hinged to the inside vertical
edges of this frame - as opposed to kitchen cupboard type construction
where the side of the carcass is at 90 degrees to the door face and
allows the "blum" type hinges to be used (I hope you see what I mean -
I guess a diagram would help - but an ASCII diagram would probably
just look incomprehensible).

(2a) Is 12mm MDF thick enough to take screws of a reasonable enough
size to support the weight of two 15" wide by 70" high doors.

I hope I have described my problem in a reasonably comprehensible
fashion. I would be grateful for any advice any uk-diy readers can
provide including alternative methods of constucting the doors (NB
simple/quick methods - i.e. mortice/tenoned frame and panel type
construction is out of the question).

Anyway, thanks in advance for any advice anyone can provide,

Gary


IMHO, MDF is not strong enough to support it's own weight and will not stay
flat when used as doors in this way.
I may be OK for a while but I fear it will end in tears.

Consider buying 'paint ply' doors from your timber merchant (not the sheds).
These are cheap and light and available in width steps of 3" x 78" tall.
With care, can be shortened if needed byy cutting and regluing the edge
timber back in between the skins and also the width can be reduced by about
3/4" on each edge by sawing and planing.
They can be painted as the name suggests or stained/varnished.
Using standard mouldings, these can be made to resemble panel doors.
HTH

Bob

In article , "gary watson"
says...

Evening folks,

I'm building some fitted wardrobes in some alcoves in a bedroom in my
house and having nearly finished the exterior carcasses and internal
shelves etc I can no longer ignore the perplexing question of making
the doors (perhaps I should have thought about this up front before I
started .... but anyway....)

I am considering using MDF for the doors since (a) it's cheap and (b)
it's easy to work with (allegedly).

snip

Secondly, concerning the actual construction of the doors themselves,
the doors are to fit a gap approximately 60" wide and 70" high so I
was contemplating making a pair of bi-folding doors comprising four
"half" doors approx. 15" wide per half-door. I want to give them a
framed and panelled appearance - just simple square edged frames - no
fancy mouldings - so rather than buy square section wood mouldings I
was considering using 6mm MDF sawn into long strips say 2"-3" wide and
then gluing these to the main door panels which would themselves be
12mm MDF (Apologies for mixing metric and Imperial units). My
questions concerning the door construction are :-

snip

(2a) Is 12mm MDF thick enough to take screws of a reasonable enough
size to support the weight of two 15" wide by 70" high doors.

MDF is heavy and doesn't like taking screws in the edge.

I hope I have described my problem in a reasonably comprehensible
fashion. I would be grateful for any advice any uk-diy readers can
provide including alternative methods of constucting the doors (NB
simple/quick methods - i.e. mortice/tenoned frame and panel type
construction is out of the question).


I'd probably knock it together out of 4 x 1 (or thicker) softwood and
1/8" hardboard with lap joints.

________________________
| |
| |______________________________
| |______________________________
| |
| |
|_______________________________|_________________ _____
|_________________________________________________ _____


___________________________
| | | | | |
| | | | | |
| |_|_______________|_| |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| __|_______________|__ |
| | | | | |
| | | | | |
| |_|_______________|_| |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |

IMHO, MDF is not strong enough to support it's own weight and will not stay
flat when used as doors in this way.
I may be OK for a while but I fear it will end in tears.
My 6ft+ doors have stayed perfectly flat for close on 20 years. They have
6mm mdf panels too.

"gary watson" wrote in message
...

Evening folks,

I'm building some fitted wardrobes in some alcoves in a bedroom in my
house and having nearly finished the exterior carcasses and internal
shelves etc I can no longer ignore the perplexing question of making
the doors (perhaps I should have thought about this up front before I
started .... but anyway....)

I am considering using MDF for the doors since (a) it's cheap and (b)
it's easy to work with (allegedly).

Firstly, I have heard that there are available certain brands of MDF
that are free from urea formaldehyde - does anyone know of any brand
names and/or stockists of such MDF in the UK and how does its price
compare with ordinary MDF. Alternatively, I have "heard" that a good
few coats of oil based paint (on top of primer/base coats naturally)
will seal ordinary MDF to render it "safe(r)". Quite how much it
seals the wood is another question but I guess "common sense" would
suggest that it may arrest the rate at which any nasty gases leach
into the atmosphere - but by how much and how safe is probably
anyone's guess. Does anyone else have any suggestions and or advice
that I can add to my existing stock of conflicting opinions and
general confusion ?

Secondly, concerning the actual construction of the doors themselves,
the doors are to fit a gap approximately 60" wide and 70" high so I
was contemplating making a pair of bi-folding doors comprising four
"half" doors approx. 15" wide per half-door. I want to give them a
framed and panelled appearance - just simple square edged frames - no
fancy mouldings - so rather than buy square section wood mouldings I
was considering using 6mm MDF sawn into long strips say 2"-3" wide and
then gluing these to the main door panels which would themselves be
12mm MDF (Apologies for mixing metric and Imperial units). My
questions concerning the door construction are :-

(1) Gluing the false frames to the panels :- does MDF-MDF glue well
face side to face side ? Is ordinary wood glue suitable for this task
?

(2) Hinges:- I will be using ordinary hinges screwed into the edges of
the doors and to the wardrobe door frame. I have heard that MDF does
not take screws too well - does anyone have any advice for how to
obtain a good secure fixing ? Even 12mm MDF seems to be very heavy
stuff and I am concerned that the screw size permitted by the hole
size of the hinges may not be up to the job. I am precluded from using
"Blum" type hinges since the front of the wardrobe consists of a flat
outer frame of 3"x1" (nominal size) inside which the doors will be
hung - thus the door edges need to be hinged to the inside vertical
edges of this frame - as opposed to kitchen cupboard type construction
where the side of the carcass is at 90 degrees to the door face and
allows the "blum" type hinges to be used (I hope you see what I mean -
I guess a diagram would help - but an ASCII diagram would probably
just look incomprehensible).

(2a) Is 12mm MDF thick enough to take screws of a reasonable enough
size to support the weight of two 15" wide by 70" high doors.

I hope I have described my problem in a reasonably comprehensible
fashion. I would be grateful for any advice any uk-diy readers can
provide including alternative methods of constucting the doors (NB
simple/quick methods - i.e. mortice/tenoned frame and panel type
construction is out of the question).

Anyway, thanks in advance for any advice anyone can provide,

Gary


Couldn't you just add another strip of wood (MDF or whatever) inside the
vertical sections of the frame but set back from the face by the thickness
of the door. This would enable you to use concealed (blum) hinges which have
the advantages of not needing to screw into the edge of the doors and are
also adjustable so you can get the door alignment just right. From the
outside the door/frame combination would look the same or better IMO as
there would be no visible hinges.

Fergal

"gary watson" wrote in message
...

Evening folks,

I'm building some fitted wardrobes in some alcoves in a bedroom in my
house and having nearly finished the exterior carcasses and internal
shelves etc I can no longer ignore the perplexing question of making
the doors (perhaps I should have thought about this up front before I
started .... but anyway....)

I am considering using MDF for the doors since (a) it's cheap and (b)
it's easy to work with (allegedly).

snip

(2) Hinges:- I will be using ordinary hinges screwed into the edges of
the doors and to the wardrobe door frame. I have heard that MDF does
not take screws too well - does anyone have any advice for how to
obtain a good secure fixing ?

snip

Anyway, thanks in advance for any advice anyone can provide,

Gary


A good way to put screws into the "end grain" of MDF is to use the old
fashioned fibre rawlplugs/

Drill a tight fitting hole, fill with wood glue and tap in the plugs flush
to the surface (trimming, if necessary, with a sharp chisel)

When dry, screw into the plugs - a good fixing is obtained and the chance of
splitting the MDF is much reduced.

Even using this method, 12mm is very thin for an edge fixing - have you paid
a visit to your local hardware shop to see if any of the cranked flush
hinges will allow you to fix into the back of the door where you have a
double thickness (door plus glued on paneling) to screw into?

HTH

Adrian

In article , "Adrian Berry"
says...
snip

A good way to put screws into the "end grain" of MDF is to use the old
fashioned fibre rawlplugs/

Drill a tight fitting hole, fill with wood glue and tap in the plugs flush
to the surface (trimming, if necessary, with a sharp chisel)

When dry, screw into the plugs - a good fixing is obtained and the chance of
splitting the MDF is much reduced.

Similarly you can drill holes through the panel in line with the screws,
glue dowel into the holes and trim flush, then drill clearance through
the MDF and pilot through the dowel and squirt some glue into the holes
before screwing. This is fiddly but makes it very unlikely that the MDF
will split.

|
___ ||
/ \ ||
\\\\\\\\\ZZZZZZZ
\___/ ||
___ ||
/ \ ||
\\\\\\ZZZZZ
\___/ ||
___ ||
/ \ ||
\\\\\\\\\ZZZZZZZ
\___/ ||
||
|

But better just to not use MDF (or timber of any sort) where joint
strength would rely on screwing into end grain.
Having said that, piano hinges would spread the load well and might be
worth considering.

On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 20:42:15 GMT, "Bob Minchin"
wrote:


gary watson wrote in message ...


........ snip, snip ...... 8 ...... snip .... 8 .....


IMHO, MDF is not strong enough to support it's own weight and will not stay
flat when used as doors in this way.
I may be OK for a while but I fear it will end in tears.

I've never really used MDF but I picked up a 4'x4' sheet once and was
surprised at it's weight compared to similar thickness ply.

Consider buying 'paint ply' doors from your timber merchant (not the sheds).
These are cheap and light and available in width steps of 3" x 78" tall.
With care, can be shortened if needed byy cutting and regluing the edge
timber back in between the skins and also the width can be reduced by about
3/4" on each edge by sawing and planing.
They can be painted as the name suggests or stained/varnished.
Using standard mouldings, these can be made to resemble panel doors.
HTH

Bob


I've never come across these but they sound interesting. I always try
to buy large orders from a local timber merchant but have always dealt
with them by phone/fax. Maybe I should ask their advice or go and have
a wander around their premises - they are always helpful. I try to
avoid the large sheds except for small last minute emergency purchases
when I don't object to paying through the nose so much.

The only pre-made cupboard type doors I have seen are the louvre type
doors that the large sheds seem to stock. If something like that is
available but in a plain flat style then that might be what I'm
looking for. I'll try and check it out.

Thanks,

Gary.

On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 15:59:10 +0100, "Fergal"
wrote:


"gary watson" wrote in message
.. .

....... snippety, snip .......... 8



Couldn't you just add another strip of wood (MDF or whatever) inside the
vertical sections of the frame but set back from the face by the thickness
of the door. This would enable you to use concealed (blum) hinges which have
the advantages of not needing to screw into the edge of the doors and are
also adjustable so you can get the door alignment just right. From the
outside the door/frame combination would look the same or better IMO as
there would be no visible hinges.

Fergal


I'm not quite sure what you mean. Do you mean another strip that would
be thick enough to form a substantial face at right angles to the face
of the doors so that I could use the normal 90 degree blum type hinges
? If so that wouldn't really be practical for my particular case.
Although I may have misunderstood. I'll attempt a quick ascii diagram
to show my particular configuration (although you may have to
cut'n'paste it into something like notepad that uses a fixed-width
font for it to make sense).....

| |
| |
| |
|_|_____ ___________
|_______||____________

I hope the above displays sensibly - it is a plan view - or horizontal
cross-section I suppose would be more accurate - the vertical edge is
the side panel of the wardrobe - the first (i.e. leftmost) horizontal
piece is the 3" outer frame - the second horizontal piece is the
leftmost edge of a door. As (I hope) you can see - I would need a blum
type hinge that is engineered for fixing in a 180 degree closed
position and opening to more than 270 degrees. I have done a quick
google search and the best I can come up with are some blum type
hinges that are made for corner type kitchen cupboards but these do
not seem to have sufficient angle (i.e. door to side panel angle is
135 degrees).

I found the data sheets for the hinges difficult to interpret though
since they seem to be more oriented to folks who will be setting up
jigs for manufacturing large quantities of cupboard carcasses and
such.

Anyway, thanks for you suggestion,

Gary.

On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 10:06:15 +0000 (UTC), "Adrian Berry"
wrote:


"gary watson" wrote in message
.. .

............................. snip, snip ................ 8



A good way to put screws into the "end grain" of MDF is to use the old
fashioned fibre rawlplugs/

Drill a tight fitting hole, fill with wood glue and tap in the plugs flush
to the surface (trimming, if necessary, with a sharp chisel)

When dry, screw into the plugs - a good fixing is obtained and the chance of
splitting the MDF is much reduced.

Even using this method, 12mm is very thin for an edge fixing - have you paid
a visit to your local hardware shop to see if any of the cranked flush
hinges will allow you to fix into the back of the door where you have a
double thickness (door plus glued on paneling) to screw into?

HTH

Adrian


I am aware that 12mm is very thin - my reason for using this thickness
is that 12mm main panel thickness + 6mm thickness for the false frame
= 18mm which is approximately the thickness of my edge frame (21mm or
1" nominal i.e. before planing). I guess I could go to 15mm thick MDF
but the stuff seems so heavy......

On the other hand, would 12mm + 6mm for the false framed edges joined
with plenty of glue not create a good 18mm thickness strong enough to
drill and plug in the method you described ? Or am I hoping for too
much from an MDF face-to-face glued joint ?

Thanks for your suggestion,

Gary

I am aware that 12mm is very thin - my reason for using this thickness
is that 12mm main panel thickness + 6mm thickness for the false frame
= 18mm which is approximately the thickness of my edge frame (21mm or
1" nominal i.e. before planing). I guess I could go to 15mm thick MDF
but the stuff seems so heavy......
I think I might do it the other way round. 6mm panel and 12mm false frame.
If you want the panels recessed, screw through the 6mm into the 12mm from
the back.
IME only kitchen type concealed hinges work long term on mdf