On 19/05/2021 09:15, Theo wrote:
Considering that nuclear electricity is double the cost of renewables,
dont tell porkies


--
Labour - a bunch of rich people convincing poor people to vote for rich
people by telling poor people that "other" rich people are the reason
they are poor.

Peter Thompson

On 19/05/2021 09:39, Andy Burns wrote:
Theo wrote:

The Department estimates that between £10 and £15 of the average annual
household electricity bill (in 2012 prices) will go towards supporting
Hinkley Point C up to 2030

as against about £100 supporting renewables

A small price to have lights that come on when its dark, rather than
when it's bright or windy ...

Indeed

--
Labour - a bunch of rich people convincing poor people to vote for rich
people by telling poor people that "other" rich people are the reason
they are poor.

Peter Thompson

Steve Walker wrote:

Plus repeats of the same design will be a lot cheaper.

Also doesn't Hinckley C strike price go down if Sizewell C goes ahead?

"tim..." wrote in message
...


"Steve Walker" wrote in message
...
On 18/05/2021 09:25, Tim+ wrote:
Chris Bacon wrote:
On 17/05/2021 22:37, Max Demian wrote:
Smart meters are sold on more than remote metering. We're supposed to
be
able to save oodles of money if we consent to having them installed -
not sure how.

I can't think of a single advantage, except for the car charging thing
that someone mentioned. Indeed, that seems to be the sole reason for
the
push to make people have them. So that charging times can be somewhat
controlled.



Its not a question of €œcontrolling€� it, its just makes it much more
affordable if you have a significant consumption that you can time-shift
to
an off-peak period.

Except of course, for most people who do not want to arrange their whole
life around the electricity tariff times, it'll simply mean paying a lot
more because they want to cook (as we move from gas, we'll only have
electric cookers), heat their home (electric heat pumps), have a shower
or a bath (no hot water storage, so electric instantaneous water heater)

Oh I wish

the biggest thing for me if I were to not be allowed to have a gas boiler
[1] would be the loss of instantaneous hot water

there's no property-wide electric equivalent ATM

Yes there is. It just costs a lot more for the electricity.

[1] my house is very well insulated and my heating bills tiny. If I were
to change to all electric heating, my bill would go up by a few 100 pounds
per year with no loss of utility, countered by saving on the gas standing
charge and the annual boiler service.

On Wed, 19 May 2021 19:33:53 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


there's no property-wide electric equivalent ATM

Yes there is. It just costs a lot more for the electricity.

In auto-contradicting mode again, you clinically insane, auto-contradicting
senile pest?

--
Kerr-Mudd,John addressing the auto-contradicting senile cretin:
"Auto-contradictor Rod is back! (in the KF)"
MID:

"Steve Walker" wrote in message
...
On 19/05/2021 09:15, Theo wrote:
Pancho wrote:
On 18/05/2021 19:36, Theo wrote:
Steve Walker wrote:
We should have built more baseload power stations - particular
nuclear.

That ship sailed 10+ years ago. For the one we are building, the
wholesale
price per unit is roughly double that of renewables ( in normal
conditions)
so it's going to need subsidy to sell its power. It's not cheap
baseload
it's expensive baseload.


I doubt that your figures are true.

Hinkley Point C has a guaranteed purchase price of its nuclear
electricity
of £92.50 per MWh (9.25p per kWh):

But how much lower could it have been if the government funded the build,
so there was no need for far more expensive commercial loans, while also
making a profit on top?

Plus repeats of the same design will be a lot cheaper.

there will be no repeat builds of the same design

HMG wont sign off on this price again (realising that they made a mistake
agreeing this deal)

and no-one will build commercially at a lower strike price

"Steve Walker" wrote in message
...
On 19/05/2021 08:23, Pancho wrote:
On 18/05/2021 19:36, Theo wrote:
Steve Walker wrote:
We should have built more baseload power stations - particular nuclear.

That ship sailed 10+ years ago. For the one we are building, the
wholesale
price per unit is roughly double that of renewables ( in normal
conditions)
so it's going to need subsidy to sell its power. It's not cheap
baseload
it's expensive baseload.


I doubt that your figures are true.

We need to factor in reliability of supply. It also does not address that
the cost of renewables (we mean wind) will go up as the best sites are
taken. Getting to 3 times current electricity generation, needed for heat
and transport, will be hard with wind.

On the other hand we could do it with Nuclear and we would expect Nuclear
costs to come down with economies of scale. The problem with Nuclear is
that it is upfront cost and has to fight bull**** and "something will
turn up" arguments. Something may turn up, but I think it is very rash to
rely on it.

Nuclear costs would also fall considerably if the government funded them
as investment and paid it back from selling the electricity, then once
paid back, either dropped the price for each plant in turn, used the
excess it to drop the overall price of electricity or used it to lower
taxes elsewhere.

that was the theory with the first generation builds

In practice, unexpected build and operating costs meant that day when they
had paid for themselves and prices could be reduced, never came

Increasing costs with current generation nukes being built in other
countries suggest that the same will happen with them

"Pancho" wrote in message
...
On 19/05/2021 08:32, tim... wrote:

[1] my house is very well insulated and my heating bills tiny. If I
were to change to all electric heating, my bill would go up by a few 100
pounds per year with no loss of utility, countered by saving on the gas
standing charge and the annual boiler service.


That's it. How are we supposed to justify a £10,000 heat pump cost for a
maximum saving of a few 100 pounds per year.

we can't

only idiots will see that as a good idea

That's what's wrong with the TPTB dictating a solution, based upon a
presumption of best (from emission pov) alternative.

Most of us wont put in the best alternative and just replace with panel
heaters

"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...


"tim..." wrote in message
...


"Steve Walker" wrote in message
...
On 18/05/2021 09:25, Tim+ wrote:
Chris Bacon wrote:
On 17/05/2021 22:37, Max Demian wrote:
Smart meters are sold on more than remote metering. We're supposed to
be
able to save oodles of money if we consent to having them installed -
not sure how.

I can't think of a single advantage, except for the car charging thing
that someone mentioned. Indeed, that seems to be the sole reason for
the
push to make people have them. So that charging times can be somewhat
controlled.



Its not a question of €œcontrolling€� it, its just makes it much more
affordable if you have a significant consumption that you can
time-shift to
an off-peak period.

Except of course, for most people who do not want to arrange their whole
life around the electricity tariff times, it'll simply mean paying a lot
more because they want to cook (as we move from gas, we'll only have
electric cookers), heat their home (electric heat pumps), have a shower
or a bath (no hot water storage, so electric instantaneous water heater)

Oh I wish

the biggest thing for me if I were to not be allowed to have a gas boiler
[1] would be the loss of instantaneous hot water

there's no property-wide electric equivalent ATM

Yes there is. It just costs a lot more for the electricity.

There may be theoretically available solutions

but you will struggle (in the UK) to get buyers thinking that it's a good
idea when trying to sell your house.

They have to become a "normal" solution for that to happen

On 19/05/2021 12:33, tim... wrote:


"Steve Walker" wrote in message
...
On 19/05/2021 09:15, Theo wrote:
Pancho wrote:
On 18/05/2021 19:36, Theo wrote:
Steve Walker wrote:
We should have built more baseload power stations - particular
nuclear.

That ship sailed 10+ years ago.Â* For the one we are building, the
wholesale
price per unit is roughly double that of renewables ( in normal
conditions)
so it's going to need subsidy to sell its power.Â* It's not cheap
baseload
it's expensive baseload.


I doubt that your figures are true.

Hinkley Point C has a guaranteed purchase price of its nuclear
electricity
of £92.50 per MWh (9.25p per kWh):

But how much lower could it have been if the government funded the
build, so there was no need for far more expensive commercial loans,
while also making a profit on top?

Plus repeats of the same design will be a lot cheaper.

there will be no repeat builds of the same design

HMG wont sign off on this price again (realising that they made a
mistake agreeing this deal)

and no-one will build commercially at a lower strike price



Of course they will.

SMRs are specifically designed to come in at the £40/MWh mark.

What has to happen however is that the government undertakes it wont -
even if some random collection of Greens get into coalition - ban
nuclear power without compensation, or require that completely
unrealistic insurance policies be taken out by nuclear power companies.

ArtStudents„¢ and Ecowarriors have stacked the regulatory deck against
nuclear in any way they could, TRIPLING the build costs.

It has to stop, or the country will collapse from 'renewable' lack of
energy.


--
Future generations will wonder in bemused amazement that the early
twenty-first centurys developed world went into hysterical panic over a
globally average temperature increase of a few tenths of a degree, and,
on the basis of gross exaggerations of highly uncertain computer
projections combined into implausible chains of inference, proceeded to
contemplate a rollback of the industrial age.

Richard Lindzen

On 19/05/2021 12:33, tim... wrote:


"Steve Walker" wrote in message
...
On 19/05/2021 09:15, Theo wrote:
Pancho wrote:
On 18/05/2021 19:36, Theo wrote:
Steve Walker wrote:
We should have built more baseload power stations - particular
nuclear.

That ship sailed 10+ years ago.Â* For the one we are building, the
wholesale
price per unit is roughly double that of renewables ( in normal
conditions)
so it's going to need subsidy to sell its power.Â* It's not cheap
baseload
it's expensive baseload.


I doubt that your figures are true.

Hinkley Point C has a guaranteed purchase price of its nuclear
electricity
of £92.50 per MWh (9.25p per kWh):

But how much lower could it have been if the government funded the
build, so there was no need for far more expensive commercial loans,
while also making a profit on top?

Plus repeats of the same design will be a lot cheaper.

there will be no repeat builds of the same design

HMG wont sign off on this price again (realising that they made a
mistake agreeing this deal)

and no-one will build commercially at a lower strike price



What about the small modular reactor design that the Rolls-Royce
consortium are proposing ?

"tim..." wrote in message
...


"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...


"tim..." wrote in message
...


"Steve Walker" wrote in message
...
On 18/05/2021 09:25, Tim+ wrote:
Chris Bacon wrote:
On 17/05/2021 22:37, Max Demian wrote:
Smart meters are sold on more than remote metering. We're supposed
to be
able to save oodles of money if we consent to having them
installed -
not sure how.

I can't think of a single advantage, except for the car charging
thing
that someone mentioned. Indeed, that seems to be the sole reason for
the
push to make people have them. So that charging times can be somewhat
controlled.



Its not a question of €œcontrolling€� it, its just makes it much more
affordable if you have a significant consumption that you can
time-shift to
an off-peak period.

Except of course, for most people who do not want to arrange their
whole life around the electricity tariff times, it'll simply mean
paying a lot more because they want to cook (as we move from gas, we'll
only have electric cookers), heat their home (electric heat pumps),
have a shower or a bath (no hot water storage, so electric
instantaneous water heater)

Oh I wish

the biggest thing for me if I were to not be allowed to have a gas
boiler [1] would be the loss of instantaneous hot water

there's no property-wide electric equivalent ATM

Yes there is. It just costs a lot more for the electricity.

There may be theoretically available solutions

Not just theoretically available, buyable right now.
The only reason they arent as common is because
electricity costs a lot more per KWh than gas does.
But they are still used where gas isnt available.

but you will struggle (in the UK) to get buyers thinking that it's a good
idea when trying to sell your house.

Works fine when there is no gas available.

They have to become a "normal" solution for that to happen

Wrong.

"Who or What is Rod Speed?

Rod Speed is an entirely modern phenomenon. Essentially, Rod Speed
is an insecure and worthless individual who has discovered he can
enhance his own self-esteem in his own eyes by playing "the big, hard
man" on the InterNet."
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/r...d-faq.2973853/

--
Keema Nam addressing nym-shifting senile Rodent:
"You are now exposed as a liar, as well as an ignorant troll."
"MID: .com"

In article , Theo
writes
Chris Bacon wrote:
I can't think of a single advantage, except for the car charging thing
that someone mentioned. Indeed, that seems to be the sole reason for the
push to make people have them. So that charging times can be somewhat
controlled.

They can also tell you whether you have any particularly energy hungry
appliances. For example you might have a really inefficient fridge which
could be because the door seals are leaky and so it's always trying to cool
the room. (They don't tell you per-appliance, but you can deduce things as
they come on and off)

You might find the display makes it easier to correlate with what you do.
For example, on a normal day we would use 10kWh, but if we were doing lots
of washing and drying it might be more like 13-14kWh. So I could say each
dryer load was about 1kWh.

Plus if you are on a low income you can ensure you don't get bill shock at
the end of the month/quarter, since the meter tells you exactly how much
each day costs you. You're more aware of your usage than just when the bill
lands.

These things don't magically happen just by getting one installed, but they
do provide tools which can help save if you're prepared to do a little bit
of work.

Theo
The tendency seems to be for people to do the work initially but then
get bored with it and by the end of the year average saving of about
£11.
--
bert

In article , Theo
writes
Tim+ wrote:
By the simple expedient of wandering around your house whilst turning
appliances on and off while looking at the in house display. Not exactly
high tech. Its crude, but easier that having someone shouting out from
you meter cupboard how fast your meter is spinning whist youre doing this.
;-)

As well as that, if the display is somewhere central you tend to notice it
change as things happen - eg hear the central heating fire up, that's 200W
for the pump. Turn on the toaster, that's another 1kW, etc. You get to
learn what appliances actually take.

All my appliances came with a little label on them telling me how much
powere they consume.
Plus at night when everything is shut down it's a good indicator of your
base load - all those gadgets running 24/7.


I agree this is not for everyone, but I hope it would have an audience
amount the DIY crowd...

Theo

--
bert

In article , The Natural Philosopher
writes
On 19/05/2021 12:33, tim... wrote:
"Steve Walker" wrote in message
...
On 19/05/2021 09:15, Theo wrote:
Pancho wrote:
On 18/05/2021 19:36, Theo wrote:
Steve Walker wrote:
We should have built more baseload power stations - particular
nuclear.

That ship sailed 10+ years ago.Â* For the one we are building,
wholesale
price per unit is roughly double that of renewables ( in normal
conditions)
so it's going to need subsidy to sell its power.Â* It's not cheap
baseload
it's expensive baseload.


I doubt that your figures are true.

Hinkley Point C has a guaranteed purchase price of its nuclear
electricity
of £92.50 per MWh (9.25p per kWh):

But how much lower could it have been if the government funded the
build, so there was no need for far more expensive commercial loans,
while also making a profit on top?

Plus repeats of the same design will be a lot cheaper.
there will be no repeat builds of the same design
HMG wont sign off on this price again (realising that they made a
mistake agreeing this deal)
and no-one will build commercially at a lower strike price

Of course they will.

SMRs are specifically designed to come in at the £40/MWh mark.

What has to happen however is that the government undertakes it wont -
even if some random collection of Greens get into coalition - ban
nuclear power without compensation, or require that completely
unrealistic insurance policies be taken out by nuclear power companies.

ArtStudents„¢ and Ecowarriors have stacked the regulatory deck against
nuclear in any way they could, TRIPLING the build costs.

It has to stop, or the country will collapse from 'renewable' lack of
energy.


I read recently that RR are seeking £300m just to get their design
through approval.
--
bert

"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...


"tim..." wrote in message
...


"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...


"tim..." wrote in message
...


"Steve Walker" wrote in message
...
On 18/05/2021 09:25, Tim+ wrote:
Chris Bacon wrote:
On 17/05/2021 22:37, Max Demian wrote:
Smart meters are sold on more than remote metering. We're supposed
to be
able to save oodles of money if we consent to having them
installed -
not sure how.

I can't think of a single advantage, except for the car charging
thing
that someone mentioned. Indeed, that seems to be the sole reason for
the
push to make people have them. So that charging times can be
somewhat
controlled.



Its not a question of €œcontrolling€� it, its just makes it much more
affordable if you have a significant consumption that you can
time-shift to
an off-peak period.

Except of course, for most people who do not want to arrange their
whole life around the electricity tariff times, it'll simply mean
paying a lot more because they want to cook (as we move from gas,
we'll only have electric cookers), heat their home (electric heat
pumps), have a shower or a bath (no hot water storage, so electric
instantaneous water heater)

Oh I wish

the biggest thing for me if I were to not be allowed to have a gas
boiler [1] would be the loss of instantaneous hot water

there's no property-wide electric equivalent ATM

Yes there is. It just costs a lot more for the electricity.

There may be theoretically available solutions

Not just theoretically available, buyable right now.
The only reason they arent as common is because
electricity costs a lot more per KWh than gas does.

the price of electric has nothing to do with it

there are plenty of houses that are electric only that have to have electric
water heating

and they all have a bloody great big hot water storage tank that you either
have to "remember" to heat up before you want to use it, or have it on 24/7
(Ok you can set it via timer, but you still have to get that set right)

Almost no-one at all, in the UK, has an electric instantaneous hot water
system for whole house use

But they are still used where gas isnt available.

but you will struggle (in the UK) to get buyers thinking that it's a good
idea when trying to sell your house.

Works fine when there is no gas available.

No it doesn't (because I believe that they require a beefed up electric
supply that UK domestic installations do not have as the default).

They have to become a "normal" solution for that to happen

Wrong.

Oh no it isn't

tim... wrote
Rod Speed wrote
tim... wrote
Rod Speed wrote
tim... wrote
Steve Walker wrote
Tim+ wrote
Chris Bacon wrote
Max Demian wrote

Smart meters are sold on more than remote metering. We're supposed
to be able to save oodles of money if we consent to having them
installed - not sure how.

I can't think of a single advantage, except for the car charging
thing that someone mentioned. Indeed, that seems to be the sole
reason for the push to make people have them. So that charging
times can be somewhat
controlled.

Its not a question of €œcontrolling€� it, its just makes it much
more
affordable if you have a significant consumption that you can
time-shift to an off-peak period.

Except of course, for most people who do not want to arrange their
whole life around the electricity tariff times, it'll simply mean
paying a lot more because they want to cook (as we move from gas,
we'll only have electric cookers), heat their home (electric heat
pumps), have a shower or a bath (no hot water storage, so electric
instantaneous water heater)

Oh I wish

the biggest thing for me if I were to not be allowed to have a gas
boiler [1] would be the loss of instantaneous hot water

there's no property-wide electric equivalent ATM

Yes there is. It just costs a lot more for the electricity.

There may be theoretically available solutions

Not just theoretically available, buyable right now.
The only reason they arent as common is because
electricity costs a lot more per KWh than gas does.

the price of electric has nothing to do with it

Wrong, as always.

there are plenty of houses that are electric only that have to have
electric water heating

Yep, mine too.

and they all have a bloody great big hot water storage tank

Mine isnt that big.

that you either have to "remember" to heat up before you want to use it,

Nope, its full of hot water any time I need it.

or have it on 24/7

Nope, mine gets heated twice a day as required.

(Ok you can set it via timer, but you still have to get that set right)

Nope, mine is completely automatic.

Almost no-one at all, in the UK, has an electric instantaneous hot water
system for whole house use

Yep, most have enough of a clue to have a storage
tank for the hot water to use cheaper electricity.

But they are still used where gas isnt available.

but you will struggle (in the UK) to get buyers thinking that it's a
good idea when trying to sell your house.

Works fine when there is no gas available.

No it doesn't

Bull****.

(because I believe that they require a beefed up electric supply that UK
domestic installations do not have as the default).

You are wrong, as always.

They have to become a "normal" solution for that to happen

Wrong.

Oh no it isn't

Oh yes it is.

On Mon, 24 May 2021 20:02:59 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH the trolling senile asshole's latest troll**** unread again

--
Norman Wells addressing trolling senile Rodent:
"Ah, the voice of scum speaks."
MID:

Brian Gaff \(Sofa\) wrote:
I have just, well last week, had an email with a contact number on it to
call and get a smart meter installed complete with a talking consumer
device. Not run them yet, intend to do that tomorrow afternoon, but wondered
as I know we have had some people on here who might know this, do they have
any issues like making radio frequency interference from their power supply
or whatever?

An interesting RFI tale...
https://octopus.energy/blog/perils-w...ch-innovators/

On Mon, 24 May 2021 16:04:50 +0100, Theo wrote:

Brian Gaff \(Sofa\) wrote:
I have just, well last week, had an email with a contact number on it
to call and get a smart meter installed complete with a talking
consumer device. Not run them yet, intend to do that tomorrow
afternoon, but wondered as I know we have had some people on here who
might know this, do they have any issues like making radio frequency
interference from their power supply or whatever?

An interesting RFI tale...
https://octopus.energy/blog/perils-w...ch-innovators/


Old Nikola would turn in his grave, if he could.

On 24/05/2021 16:48, jon wrote:
On Mon, 24 May 2021 16:04:50 +0100, Theo wrote:
Brian Gaff \(Sofa\) wrote:

I have just, well last week, had an email with a contact number on it
to call and get a smart meter installed complete with a talking
consumer device. Not run them yet, intend to do that tomorrow
afternoon, but wondered as I know we have had some people on here who
might know this, do they have any issues like making radio frequency
interference from their power supply or whatever?

An interesting RFI tale...
https://octopus.energy/blog/perils-w...ch-innovators/

Old Nikola would turn in his grave, if he could.

"an inverter (a type of rectifier)"

Who is expected to read that guff?

--
Max Demian

On 24/05/2021 17:11, Max Demian wrote:
On 24/05/2021 16:48, jon wrote:
On Mon, 24 May 2021 16:04:50 +0100, Theo wrote:
Brian Gaff \(Sofa\) wrote:

I have just, well last week, had an email with a contact number on it
to call and get a smart meter installed complete with a talking
consumer device. Not run them yet, intend to do that tomorrow
afternoon, but wondered as I know we have had some people on here who
might know this, do they have any issues like making radio frequency
interference from their power supply or whatever?

An interesting RFI tale...
https://octopus.energy/blog/perils-w...ch-innovators/

Old Nikola would turn in his grave, if he could.

"an inverter (a type of rectifier)"

Who is expected to read that guff?

yes. As an electrical engineer while the problem is utterly familiar the
language in use is more like marketing-spik

--
"It is an established fact to 97% confidence limits that left wing
conspirators see right wing conspiracies everywhere"

"jon" wrote in message ...
On Mon, 24 May 2021 16:04:50 +0100, Theo wrote:

Brian Gaff \(Sofa\) wrote:
I have just, well last week, had an email with a contact number on it
to call and get a smart meter installed complete with a talking
consumer device. Not run them yet, intend to do that tomorrow
afternoon, but wondered as I know we have had some people on here who
might know this, do they have any issues like making radio frequency
interference from their power supply or whatever?

An interesting RFI tale...
https://octopus.energy/blog/perils-w...ch-innovators/


Old Nikola would turn in his grave, if he could.

He cant, I nailed the bugger down so he couldnt.

On Tue, 25 May 2021 07:01:41 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH the trolling senile asshole's latest troll**** unread

--
John addressing the senile Australian pest:
"You are a complete idiot. But you make me larf. LOL"
MID: