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Smart meters, nearly fell off my stool.
I have just, well last week, had an email with a contact number on it to
call and get a smart meter installed complete with a talking consumer device. Not run them yet, intend to do that tomorrow afternoon, but wondered as I know we have had some people on here who might know this, do they have any issues like making radio frequency interference from their power supply or whatever? One of my hobbies is listening around the short waves and it hard enough already with wall warts, tvs and internet over the mains devices to contend with, without having my own personal interference make permanently wired into the house! Brian -- This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from... The Sofa of Brian Gaff... Blind user, so no pictures please Note this Signature is meaningless.! |
Smart meters, nearly fell off my stool.
Its only the in house display (IHD) and presumably the speech synthesiser
that will require a wall wart. No reason you couldnt unplug it whilst youre using your short wave radio. It wont interfere in any way with your smart meter functioning. Tim Brian Gaff \(Sofa\) wrote: I have just, well last week, had an email with a contact number on it to call and get a smart meter installed complete with a talking consumer device. Not run them yet, intend to do that tomorrow afternoon, but wondered as I know we have had some people on here who might know this, do they have any issues like making radio frequency interference from their power supply or whatever? One of my hobbies is listening around the short waves and it hard enough already with wall warts, tvs and internet over the mains devices to contend with, without having my own personal interference make permanently wired into the house! Brian -- Please don't feed the trolls |
Smart meters, nearly fell off my stool.
Theyre battery powered.
Tim Brian Gaff wrote: Yes I'm worried though as presumably the modem and other bits of the meter have to have an internal psu as well which you cannot of course do much about. Brian -- Please don't feed the trolls |
Smart meters, nearly fell off my stool.
Tim+ wrote:
Theyre battery powered. smart gas meters are battery powered (but brian has said before that he gas no gas supply) but smart electric meters are mains powered, so will have an internal PSU (presumably switch-mode) and there's precisely nothing he can do to "unplug" that Brian Gaff wrote: Yes I'm worried though as presumably the modem and other bits of the meter have to have an internal psu as well which you cannot of course do much about. |
Smart meters, nearly fell off my stool.
On 17/05/2021 08:56, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
I have just, well last week, had an email with a contact number on it to call and get a smart meter installed complete with a talking consumer device. Why would sir want such a thing? |
Smart meters, nearly fell off my stool.
On 17/05/2021 17:10, Chris Bacon wrote:
On 17/05/2021 08:56, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote: I have just, well last week, had an email with a contact number on it to call and get a smart meter installed complete with a talking consumer device. Why would sir want such a thing? He is blind !, so either essential or very useful to him. |
Smart meters, nearly fell off my stool.
On 17/05/2021 17:23, Andrew wrote:
On 17/05/2021 17:10, Chris Bacon wrote: On 17/05/2021 08:56, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote: I have just, well last week, had an email with a contact number on it to call and get a smart meter installed complete with a talking consumer device. Why would sir want such a thing? He is blind !, so either essential or very useful to him. Hopefully in future they will give us a web interface, to give the required info. I would have thought that would be relatively easy to add a talking interface to. Presumably Brian has some apps that already help with the web? |
Smart meters, nearly fell off my stool.
On 17/05/2021 17:23, Andrew wrote:
On 17/05/2021 17:10, Chris Bacon wrote: On 17/05/2021 08:56, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote: I have just, well last week, had an email with a contact number on it to call and get a smart meter installed complete with a talking consumer device. Why would sir want such a thing? He is blind !, so either essential or very useful to him. OIC. Do meters give such problems to blind people? I thought that operatives from the suppliers were still sent out. Maybe the service has been cut. |
Smart meters, nearly fell off my stool.
Andy Burns wrote:
Tim+ wrote: Theyre battery powered. smart gas meters are battery powered (but brian has said before that he gas no gas supply) but smart electric meters are mains powered, so will have an internal PSU (presumably switch-mode) and there's precisely nothing he can do to "unplug" that Apologies. Youre quite right. Tim -- Please don't feed the trolls |
Smart meters, nearly fell off my stool.
On 17/05/2021 18:46, Chris Bacon wrote:
On 17/05/2021 17:23, Andrew wrote: On 17/05/2021 17:10, Chris Bacon wrote: On 17/05/2021 08:56, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote: I have just, well last week, had an email with a contact number on it to call and get a smart meter installed complete with a talking consumer device. Why would sir want such a thing? He is blind !, so either essential or very useful to him. OIC. Do meters give such problems to blind people? I thought that operatives from the suppliers were still sent out. Maybe the service has been cut. Smart meters are sold on more than remote metering. We're supposed to be able to save oodles of money if we consent to having them installed - not sure how. -- Max Demian |
Smart meters, nearly fell off my stool.
Max Demian wrote:
On 17/05/2021 18:46, Chris Bacon wrote: On 17/05/2021 17:23, Andrew wrote: On 17/05/2021 17:10, Chris Bacon wrote: On 17/05/2021 08:56, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote: I have just, well last week, had an email with a contact number on it to call and get a smart meter installed complete with a talking consumer device. Why would sir want such a thing? He is blind !, so either essential or very useful to him. OIC. Do meters give such problems to blind people? I thought that operatives from the suppliers were still sent out. Maybe the service has been cut. Smart meters are sold on more than remote metering. We're supposed to be able to save oodles of money if we consent to having them installed - not sure how. By allowing variable tariffs. I currently get 4 hours every night charged at 5p/kWhr as opposed to 15p during the day. Perfect for charging my car. Tim -- Please don't feed the trolls |
Smart meters, nearly fell off my stool.
On 17/05/2021 22:37, Max Demian wrote:
Smart meters are sold on more than remote metering. We're supposed to be able to save oodles of money if we consent to having them installed - not sure how. I can't think of a single advantage, except for the car charging thing that someone mentioned. Indeed, that seems to be the sole reason for the push to make people have them. So that charging times can be somewhat controlled. |
Smart meters, nearly fell off my stool.
Tim+ wrote:
I currently get 4 hours every night charged at 5p/kWhr as opposed to 15p during the day. Perfect for charging my car. The more people move to that type of tariff, the less advantageous it will become, ISTR the graphs already show the average and maximum daily prices creeping up? |
Smart meters, nearly fell off my stool.
Chris Bacon wrote:
On 17/05/2021 22:37, Max Demian wrote: Smart meters are sold on more than remote metering. We're supposed to be able to save oodles of money if we consent to having them installed - not sure how. I can't think of a single advantage, except for the car charging thing that someone mentioned. Indeed, that seems to be the sole reason for the push to make people have them. So that charging times can be somewhat controlled. Its not a question of controlling it, its just makes it much more affordable if you have a significant consumption that you can time-shift to an off-peak period. Tim -- Please don't feed the trolls |
Smart meters, nearly fell off my stool.
Andy Burns wrote:
Tim+ wrote: I currently get 4 hours every night charged at 5p/kWhr as opposed to 15p during the day. Perfect for charging my car. The more people move to that type of tariff, the less advantageous it will become, ISTR the graphs already show the average and maximum daily prices creeping up? Indeed. Prices will be going up across the board soon I think and youre probably right that the peak/off-peak difference will diminish as the number of EVs increases. Meanwhile, paying 1.5 pence per mile for my fuel is rather pleasing. ;-) Tim -- Please don't feed the trolls |
Smart meters, nearly fell off my stool.
"Andy Burns" wrote in message ... Tim+ wrote: I currently get 4 hours every night charged at 5p/kWhr as opposed to 15p during the day. Perfect for charging my car. The more people move to that type of tariff, the less advantageous it will become, ISTR the graphs already show the average and maximum daily prices creeping up? Yup when I used to have storage rads and use E7, the night rate was less than a quarter of the standard daytime rate now you're lucky if you can find a rate better than half (the standard rate, not the enhanced E7 day rate) The economics of E7 has gone out the window now. |
Smart meters, nearly fell off my stool.
Chris Bacon wrote:
I can't think of a single advantage, except for the car charging thing that someone mentioned. Indeed, that seems to be the sole reason for the push to make people have them. So that charging times can be somewhat controlled. They can also tell you whether you have any particularly energy hungry appliances. For example you might have a really inefficient fridge which could be because the door seals are leaky and so it's always trying to cool the room. (They don't tell you per-appliance, but you can deduce things as they come on and off) You might find the display makes it easier to correlate with what you do. For example, on a normal day we would use 10kWh, but if we were doing lots of washing and drying it might be more like 13-14kWh. So I could say each dryer load was about 1kWh. Plus if you are on a low income you can ensure you don't get bill shock at the end of the month/quarter, since the meter tells you exactly how much each day costs you. You're more aware of your usage than just when the bill lands. These things don't magically happen just by getting one installed, but they do provide tools which can help save if you're prepared to do a little bit of work. Theo |
Smart meters, nearly fell off my stool.
On 18/05/2021 09:25, Tim+ wrote:
Chris Bacon wrote: I can't think of a single advantage, except for the car charging thing that someone mentioned. Indeed, that seems to be the sole reason for the push to make people have them. So that charging times can be somewhat controlled. Its not a question of controlling it, its just makes it much more affordable if you have a significant consumption that you can time-shift to an off-peak period. Of course it is. That's the major reason that they're being being pushed. I can't think of any other real advantage, can you? |
Smart meters, nearly fell off my stool.
Chris Bacon wrote:
On 18/05/2021 09:25, Tim+ wrote: Chris Bacon wrote: I can't think of a single advantage, except for the car charging thing that someone mentioned. Indeed, that seems to be the sole reason for the push to make people have them. So that charging times can be somewhat controlled. Its not a question of controlling it, its just makes it much more affordable if you have a significant consumption that you can time-shift to an off-peak period. Of course it is. That's the major reason that they're being being pushed. I can't think of any other real advantage, can you? My smart meter doesnt control my car charging. I choose when I charge it. You could argue that Im being manipulated into charging my car off peak overnight. But even without a smart meter I would be charging most nights anyway so that I start the day with a full tank. Or are you talking about a Big brother scenario whereby folk could potentially be cut off remotely? Tim -- Please don't feed the trolls |
Smart meters, nearly fell off my stool.
Theo wrote:
Chris Bacon wrote: I can't think of a single advantage, except for the car charging thing that someone mentioned. Indeed, that seems to be the sole reason for the push to make people have them. So that charging times can be somewhat controlled. They can also tell you whether you have any particularly energy hungry appliances. For example you might have a really inefficient fridge which could be because the door seals are leaky and so it's always trying to cool the room. (They don't tell you per-appliance, but you can deduce things as they come on and off) How would they tell? What's the difference between an 'always on' fridge and an 'alway on' lamp bulb? The information sent back by the Smart Meter isn't even real-time as in continuous I don't think so analysing load patterns isn't going to be seriously possible. -- Chris Green · |
Smart meters, nearly fell off my stool.
Chris Green wrote:
Theo wrote: Chris Bacon wrote: I can't think of a single advantage, except for the car charging thing that someone mentioned. Indeed, that seems to be the sole reason for the push to make people have them. So that charging times can be somewhat controlled. They can also tell you whether you have any particularly energy hungry appliances. For example you might have a really inefficient fridge which could be because the door seals are leaky and so it's always trying to cool the room. (They don't tell you per-appliance, but you can deduce things as they come on and off) How would they tell? What's the difference between an 'always on' fridge and an 'alway on' lamp bulb? The information sent back by the Smart Meter isn't even real-time as in continuous I don't think so analysing load patterns isn't going to be seriously possible. By the simple expedient of wandering around your house whilst turning appliances on and off while looking at the in house display. Not exactly high tech. Its crude, but easier that having someone shouting out from you meter cupboard how fast your meter is spinning whist youre doing this. ;-) Tim -- Please don't feed the trolls |
Smart meters, nearly fell off my stool.
OK, I asked the question, It can send data back in various increments of ten
minutes according to EDF. I said I don't really care when you do it, since as long as my bills are accurate fine by me. It cannot solely be for people with electric cars since they are happy to supply me with one next Monday morning, lets hope the accessible talking consumer display unit is sent here early enough for the person to explain how to use it. As I say, they seem to be pretty relaxed, she also told me that according to records very soon I'd need a meter change to either a reconditioned one or a smart one as they only last a certain time in spec anyway. Could all be fluff of course, no idea. She said as far as they know this meter is compatible with other suppliers but obviously nobody has a crystal ball. My main worry is that when he gets here he will say my system is dangerous and push off again. I doubt that will be allowed to happen to a blind person living alone though. I assume they have to work on the live mains at some point so its not a job I'd envy! I'll let you know assuming I'm not living in an unheated cave by Tuesday. Brian -- This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from... The Sofa of Brian Gaff... Blind user, so no pictures please Note this Signature is meaningless.! "Chris Green" wrote in message ... Theo wrote: Chris Bacon wrote: I can't think of a single advantage, except for the car charging thing that someone mentioned. Indeed, that seems to be the sole reason for the push to make people have them. So that charging times can be somewhat controlled. They can also tell you whether you have any particularly energy hungry appliances. For example you might have a really inefficient fridge which could be because the door seals are leaky and so it's always trying to cool the room. (They don't tell you per-appliance, but you can deduce things as they come on and off) How would they tell? What's the difference between an 'always on' fridge and an 'alway on' lamp bulb? The information sent back by the Smart Meter isn't even real-time as in continuous I don't think so analysing load patterns isn't going to be seriously possible. -- Chris Green |
Smart meters, nearly fell off my stool.
On 18/05/2021 09:25, Tim+ wrote:
Chris Bacon wrote: On 17/05/2021 22:37, Max Demian wrote: Smart meters are sold on more than remote metering. We're supposed to be able to save oodles of money if we consent to having them installed - not sure how. I can't think of a single advantage, except for the car charging thing that someone mentioned. Indeed, that seems to be the sole reason for the push to make people have them. So that charging times can be somewhat controlled. Its not a question of controlling it, its just makes it much more affordable if you have a significant consumption that you can time-shift to an off-peak period. Except of course, for most people who do not want to arrange their whole life around the electricity tariff times, it'll simply mean paying a lot more because they want to cook (as we move from gas, we'll only have electric cookers), heat their home (electric heat pumps), have a shower or a bath (no hot water storage, so electric instantaneous water heater) wash clothes (both washing machine and tumble dryer to have things ready for the next day, without staying up very late), etc. at a time that suits what it going on in their lives. Those with fewer demands on their time may indeed shift activities, but those working full time, looking after children/older relatives, etc. simply don't have the opportunity to match the timing of their use to pricing. It is all about demand management, by peak pricing, while simultaneously gouging those unable to make big changes. |
Smart meters, nearly fell off my stool.
On 18/05/2021 13:26, Theo wrote:
Chris Bacon wrote: I can't think of a single advantage, except for the car charging thing that someone mentioned. Indeed, that seems to be the sole reason for the push to make people have them. So that charging times can be somewhat controlled. They can also tell you whether you have any particularly energy hungry appliances. For example you might have a really inefficient fridge which could be because the door seals are leaky and so it's always trying to cool the room. (They don't tell you per-appliance, but you can deduce things as they come on and off) You might find the display makes it easier to correlate with what you do. For example, on a normal day we would use 10kWh, but if we were doing lots of washing and drying it might be more like 13-14kWh. So I could say each dryer load was about 1kWh. Plus if you are on a low income you can ensure you don't get bill shock at the end of the month/quarter, since the meter tells you exactly how much each day costs you. You're more aware of your usage than just when the bill lands. These things don't magically happen just by getting one installed, but they do provide tools which can help save if you're prepared to do a little bit of work. But you can do all that with a simple, clip on, remote power meter - without energy companies knowing the peaks and troughs of every household's usage and constructing tariffs designed to force people to change usage patterns or be hit financially. |
Smart meters, nearly fell off my stool.
Tim+ wrote:
By the simple expedient of wandering around your house whilst turning appliances on and off while looking at the in house display. Not exactly high tech. Its crude, but easier that having someone shouting out from you meter cupboard how fast your meter is spinning whist youre doing this. ;-) As well as that, if the display is somewhere central you tend to notice it change as things happen - eg hear the central heating fire up, that's 200W for the pump. Turn on the toaster, that's another 1kW, etc. You get to learn what appliances actually take. Plus at night when everything is shut down it's a good indicator of your base load - all those gadgets running 24/7. I agree this is not for everyone, but I hope it would have an audience amount the DIY crowd... Theo |
Smart meters, nearly fell off my stool.
Steve Walker wrote:
Those with fewer demands on their time may indeed shift activities, but those working full time, looking after children/older relatives, etc. simply don't have the opportunity to match the timing of their use to pricing. Which is where home storage starts to become economically viable. (batteries now approaching $100/kWh, and system costs will come down as demand rises) It is all about demand management, by peak pricing, while simultaneously gouging those unable to make big changes. If the generation side of things depends on the weather, how do you expect demand to match supply without some degree of time shifting? You can't shift the supply, so it needs the demand shifting (either in consumption or via storage). Theo |
Smart meters, nearly fell off my stool.
On 18/05/2021 17:18, Theo wrote:
Steve Walker wrote: Those with fewer demands on their time may indeed shift activities, but those working full time, looking after children/older relatives, etc. simply don't have the opportunity to match the timing of their use to pricing. Which is where home storage starts to become economically viable. (batteries now approaching $100/kWh, and system costs will come down as demand rises) It is all about demand management, by peak pricing, while simultaneously gouging those unable to make big changes. If the generation side of things depends on the weather, how do you expect demand to match supply without some degree of time shifting? You can't shift the supply, so it needs the demand shifting (either in consumption or via storage). We should have built more baseload power stations - particular nuclear. |
Smart meters, nearly fell off my stool.
Steve Walker wrote:
We should have built more baseload power stations - particular nuclear. That ship sailed 10+ years ago. For the one we are building, the wholesale price per unit is roughly double that of renewables ( in normal conditions) so it's going to need subsidy to sell its power. It's not cheap baseload it's expensive baseload. Theo |
Smart meters, nearly fell off my stool.
On Tue, 18 May 2021 17:43:00 +0100, Steve Walker wrote:
On 18/05/2021 17:18, Theo wrote: Steve Walker wrote: Those with fewer demands on their time may indeed shift activities, but those working full time, looking after children/older relatives, etc. simply don't have the opportunity to match the timing of their use to pricing. Which is where home storage starts to become economically viable. (batteries now approaching $100/kWh, and system costs will come down as demand rises) It is all about demand management, by peak pricing, while simultaneously gouging those unable to make big changes. If the generation side of things depends on the weather, how do you expect demand to match supply without some degree of time shifting? You can't shift the supply, so it needs the demand shifting (either in consumption or via storage). We should have built more baseload power stations - particular nuclear. +1 Preferably based on LFTR technology rather than cold war inspired designs (although LFTR had also had its origins based on a military need). -- Johnny B Good |
Smart meters, nearly fell off my stool.
On 18/05/2021 19:36, Theo wrote:
Steve Walker wrote: We should have built more baseload power stations - particular nuclear. That ship sailed 10+ years ago. For the one we are building, the wholesale price per unit is roughly double that of renewables ( in normal conditions) so it's going to need subsidy to sell its power. It's not cheap baseload it's expensive baseload. I doubt that your figures are true. We need to factor in reliability of supply. It also does not address that the cost of renewables (we mean wind) will go up as the best sites are taken. Getting to 3 times current electricity generation, needed for heat and transport, will be hard with wind. On the other hand we could do it with Nuclear and we would expect Nuclear costs to come down with economies of scale. The problem with Nuclear is that it is upfront cost and has to fight bull**** and "something will turn up" arguments. Something may turn up, but I think it is very rash to rely on it. |
Smart meters, nearly fell off my stool.
"Steve Walker" wrote in message ... On 18/05/2021 09:25, Tim+ wrote: Chris Bacon wrote: On 17/05/2021 22:37, Max Demian wrote: Smart meters are sold on more than remote metering. We're supposed to be able to save oodles of money if we consent to having them installed - not sure how. I can't think of a single advantage, except for the car charging thing that someone mentioned. Indeed, that seems to be the sole reason for the push to make people have them. So that charging times can be somewhat controlled. Its not a question of controlling it, its just makes it much more affordable if you have a significant consumption that you can time-shift to an off-peak period. Except of course, for most people who do not want to arrange their whole life around the electricity tariff times, it'll simply mean paying a lot more because they want to cook (as we move from gas, we'll only have electric cookers), heat their home (electric heat pumps), have a shower or a bath (no hot water storage, so electric instantaneous water heater) Oh I wish the biggest thing for me if I were to not be allowed to have a gas boiler [1] would be the loss of instantaneous hot water there's no property-wide electric equivalent ATM tim [1] my house is very well insulated and my heating bills tiny. If I were to change to all electric heating, my bill would go up by a few 100 pounds per year with no loss of utility, countered by saving on the gas standing charge and the annual boiler service. |
Smart meters, nearly fell off my stool.
Tim+ wrote:
Chris Green wrote: Theo wrote: Chris Bacon wrote: I can't think of a single advantage, except for the car charging thing that someone mentioned. Indeed, that seems to be the sole reason for the push to make people have them. So that charging times can be somewhat controlled. They can also tell you whether you have any particularly energy hungry appliances. For example you might have a really inefficient fridge which could be because the door seals are leaky and so it's always trying to cool the room. (They don't tell you per-appliance, but you can deduce things as they come on and off) How would they tell? What's the difference between an 'always on' fridge and an 'alway on' lamp bulb? The information sent back by the Smart Meter isn't even real-time as in continuous I don't think so analysing load patterns isn't going to be seriously possible. By the simple expedient of wandering around your house whilst turning appliances on and off while looking at the in house display. Not exactly high tech. Its crude, but easier that having someone shouting out from you meter cupboard how fast your meter is spinning whist youre doing this. 'They' aren't going to be wandering around my house! Note that I was responding to "They can also tell you whether you have any particularly energy hungry appliances.", to me that implies that 'they' (the electricity supplier) can tell. .... and how would turning the inefficient fridge on and off tell me whether it was inefficient or not? -- Chris Green · |
Smart meters, nearly fell off my stool.
On 19/05/2021 08:32, tim... wrote:
[1]* my house is very well insulated and my heating bills tiny.* If I were to change to all electric heating, my bill would go up by a few 100 pounds per year with no loss of utility, countered by saving on the gas standing charge and the annual boiler service. That's it. How are we supposed to justify a £10,000 heat pump cost for a maximum saving of a few 100 pounds per year. |
Smart meters, nearly fell off my stool.
Pancho wrote:
On 18/05/2021 19:36, Theo wrote: Steve Walker wrote: We should have built more baseload power stations - particular nuclear. That ship sailed 10+ years ago. For the one we are building, the wholesale price per unit is roughly double that of renewables ( in normal conditions) so it's going to need subsidy to sell its power. It's not cheap baseload it's expensive baseload. I doubt that your figures are true. Hinkley Point C has a guaranteed purchase price of its nuclear electricity of £92.50 per MWh (9.25p per kWh): "The Department for Business, Energy & Industrial Strategy therefore agreed a deal to support construction of Hinkley Point C in September 2016. The deal is with NNB Generation Company (HPC) Limited (NNBG), which is owned 66.5% by Electricite de France (EDF) and 33.5% by China General Nuclear Power Group (CGN). The deal guarantees that NNBG will receive £92.50 (2012 prices), linked to inflation, for each megawatt hour (MWh) of Hinkley Point Cs electricity for 35years, with electricity bill payers paying topups if the market price islower. .... The Department estimates that between £10 and £15 of the average annual household electricity bill (in 2012 prices) will go towards supporting Hinkley Point C up to 2030" https://publications.parliament.uk/p...cc/393/393.pdf The day-ahead baseload contract for the grid has been between £40 and £60 per MWh for most of the last decade: https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/data-portal...lesale-markets We need to factor in reliability of supply. It also does not address that the cost of renewables (we mean wind) will go up as the best sites are taken. Getting to 3 times current electricity generation, needed for heat and transport, will be hard with wind. Considering that nuclear electricity is double the cost of renewables, somebody has to pay for that difference. While reliability of supply is necessary, it doesn't mean that people won't be exposed to those differential costs in pricing terms. The lights stay on, but you pay more for them in times of high demand. If you don't, somebody else does. On the other hand we could do it with Nuclear and we would expect Nuclear costs to come down with economies of scale. The problem with Nuclear is that it is upfront cost and has to fight bull**** and "something will turn up" arguments. Something may turn up, but I think it is very rash to rely on it. +1 One of the railway journalists calls this 'bionic duckweed', some seductive new technology that will save you from having to do boring work installing proven technology like electrifying railway lines. Unfortunately the new technology doesn't exist, but it distracts politicians from committing to doing the boring but necessary work. I think all the stuff about hydrogen and small modular reactors and whatnot have a basic question: can you bring it to market at scale in 5 years? If not, it's too late - we're going to have to do something else (and maybe they will be usable technologies when *that* comes up for replacement). I think for traditional nuclear it just takes too long to build them. Theo |
Smart meters, nearly fell off my stool.
On 18/05/2021 19:36, Theo wrote:
Steve Walker wrote: We should have built more baseload power stations - particular nuclear. That ship sailed 10+ years ago. For the one we are building, the wholesale price per unit is roughly double that of renewables ( in normal conditions) no, its two thirds the price of wind power and one third the price of solar power, and that's before you take into account the cost of backup power for renewables, so it's going to need subsidy to sell its power. It's not cheap baseload it's expensive baseload. Indeed it is compared with gas, (but not with renewables). Hence the drive by RR and others to get the SMRs off the ground at about one third that price. Theo -- "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." Jonathan Swift. |
Smart meters, nearly fell off my stool.
On 19/05/2021 08:23, Pancho wrote:
On 18/05/2021 19:36, Theo wrote: Steve Walker wrote: We should have built more baseload power stations - particular nuclear. That ship sailed 10+ years ago.* For the one we are building, the wholesale price per unit is roughly double that of renewables ( in normal conditions) so it's going to need subsidy to sell its power.* It's not cheap baseload it's expensive baseload. I doubt that your figures are true. We need to factor in reliability of supply. It also does not address that the cost of renewables (we mean wind) will go up as the best sites are taken. Getting to 3 times current electricity generation, needed for heat and transport, will be hard with wind. On the other hand we could do it with Nuclear and we would expect Nuclear costs to come down with economies of scale. The problem with Nuclear is that it is upfront cost and has to fight bull**** and "something will turn up" arguments. Something may turn up, but I think it is very rash to rely on it. Nuclear costs would also fall considerably if the government funded them as investment and paid it back from selling the electricity, then once paid back, either dropped the price for each plant in turn, used the excess it to drop the overall price of electricity or used it to lower taxes elsewhere. Instead we rely upon companies borrowing money at much higher rates and having to agree much higher strike prices to pay the much more expensive loans back, while making profits. |
Smart meters, nearly fell off my stool.
On 19/05/2021 09:15, Theo wrote:
Pancho wrote: On 18/05/2021 19:36, Theo wrote: Steve Walker wrote: We should have built more baseload power stations - particular nuclear. That ship sailed 10+ years ago. For the one we are building, the wholesale price per unit is roughly double that of renewables ( in normal conditions) so it's going to need subsidy to sell its power. It's not cheap baseload it's expensive baseload. I doubt that your figures are true. Hinkley Point C has a guaranteed purchase price of its nuclear electricity of £92.50 per MWh (9.25p per kWh): But how much lower could it have been if the government funded the build, so there was no need for far more expensive commercial loans, while also making a profit on top? Plus repeats of the same design will be a lot cheaper. Snip The Department estimates that between £10 and £15 of the average annual household electricity bill (in 2012 prices) will go towards supporting Hinkley Point C up to 2030" A lot cheaper than many of the green subsidies elsewhere, while providing a steady and continuous supply. |
Smart meters, nearly fell off my stool.
On 19/05/2021 08:23, Pancho wrote:
On 18/05/2021 19:36, Theo wrote: Steve Walker wrote: We should have built more baseload power stations - particular nuclear. That ship sailed 10+ years ago.* For the one we are building, the wholesale price per unit is roughly double that of renewables ( in normal conditions) so it's going to need subsidy to sell its power.* It's not cheap baseload it's expensive baseload. I doubt that your figures are true. If you cherry pick 'cost' and ignore subsidy, they are probably true for something. I refer you to your electricity bill and the baseline wholesale costs of existing nuclear hydro coal and gas (around 4p a unit) new nuclear (9.8p a unit) In reality wind is 12p a unit plus about 3p for intermittent balancing, and solar is up in the 30-40p range. That doesnt factor in the grid upgrades needed to e.g. balance Scottish generation with English consumption... We need to factor in reliability of supply. It also does not address that the cost of renewables (we mean wind) will go up as the best sites are taken. Getting to 3 times current electricity generation, needed for heat and transport, will be hard with wind. On the other hand we could do it with Nuclear and we would expect Nuclear costs to come down with economies of scale. The problem with Nuclear is that it is upfront cost and has to fight bull**** and "something will turn up" arguments. Something may turn up, but I think it is very rash to rely on it. The upfront costs of nuclear are two thirds in meeting *regulations* that often have no impact on safety whatsoever. This is why there is a drive for SMRs - type approved, factory built, no complex onsite construction requiring massive inspection , form filling and box ticking regimes. And small enough to be passive cooled under SCRAM conditions - no meltdowns. The technology is not as efficient as as big reactor, but the paperwork and safety systems are massively reduced. -- "And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch". Gospel of St. Mathew 15:14 |
Smart meters, nearly fell off my stool.
Theo wrote:
The Department estimates that between £10 and £15 of the average annual household electricity bill (in 2012 prices) will go towards supporting Hinkley Point C up to 2030 A small price to have lights that come on when its dark, rather than when it's bright or windy ... |
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