I have just, well last week, had an email with a contact number on it to
call and get a smart meter installed complete with a talking consumer
device. Not run them yet, intend to do that tomorrow afternoon, but wondered
as I know we have had some people on here who might know this, do they have
any issues like making radio frequency interference from their power supply
or whatever?

One of my hobbies is listening around the short waves and it hard enough
already with wall warts, tvs and internet over the mains devices to contend
with, without having my own personal interference make permanently wired
into the house!

Brian

--

This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
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Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!

Its only the in house display (IHD) and presumably the speech synthesiser
that will require a wall wart. No reason you couldnt unplug it whilst
youre using your short wave radio. It wont interfere in any way with your
smart meter functioning.

Tim

Brian Gaff \(Sofa\) wrote:
I have just, well last week, had an email with a contact number on it to
call and get a smart meter installed complete with a talking consumer
device. Not run them yet, intend to do that tomorrow afternoon, but wondered
as I know we have had some people on here who might know this, do they have
any issues like making radio frequency interference from their power supply
or whatever?

One of my hobbies is listening around the short waves and it hard enough
already with wall warts, tvs and internet over the mains devices to contend
with, without having my own personal interference make permanently wired
into the house!

Brian




--
Please don't feed the trolls

Yes I'm worried though as presumably the modem and other bits of the meter
have to have an internal psu as well which you cannot of course do much
about.
Brian

--

This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Tim+" wrote in message
...
It's only the in house display (IHD) and presumably the speech synthesiser
that will require a wall wart. No reason you couldn't unplug it whilst
you're using your short wave radio. It won't interfere in any way with
your
smart meter functioning.

Tim

Brian Gaff \(Sofa\) wrote:
I have just, well last week, had an email with a contact number on it to
call and get a smart meter installed complete with a talking consumer
device. Not run them yet, intend to do that tomorrow afternoon, but
wondered
as I know we have had some people on here who might know this, do they
have
any issues like making radio frequency interference from their power
supply
or whatever?

One of my hobbies is listening around the short waves and it hard enough
already with wall warts, tvs and internet over the mains devices to
contend
with, without having my own personal interference make permanently
wired
into the house!

Brian




--
Please don't feed the trolls

Theyre battery powered.

Tim

Brian Gaff wrote:
Yes I'm worried though as presumably the modem and other bits of the meter
have to have an internal psu as well which you cannot of course do much
about.
Brian




--
Please don't feed the trolls

Tim+ wrote:

Theyre battery powered.

smart gas meters are battery powered (but brian has said before that he
gas no gas supply) but smart electric meters are mains powered, so will
have an internal PSU (presumably switch-mode) and there's precisely
nothing he can do to "unplug" that

Brian Gaff wrote:
Yes I'm worried though as presumably the modem and other bits of the
meter
have to have an internal psu as well which you cannot of course do much
about.

On 17/05/2021 08:56, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
I have just, well last week, had an email with a contact number on it to
call and get a smart meter installed complete with a talking consumer
device.

Why would sir want such a thing?

On 17/05/2021 17:10, Chris Bacon wrote:
On 17/05/2021 08:56, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
I have just, well last week, had an email with a contact number on it to
call and get a smart meter installed complete with a talking consumer
device.

Why would sir want such a thing?


He is blind !, so either essential or very useful to him.

On 17/05/2021 17:23, Andrew wrote:
On 17/05/2021 17:10, Chris Bacon wrote:
On 17/05/2021 08:56, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
I have just, well last week, had an email with a contact number on it to
call and get a smart meter installed complete with a talking consumer
device.

Why would sir want such a thing?


He is blind !, so either essential or very useful to him.

Hopefully in future they will give us a web interface, to give the
required info.

I would have thought that would be relatively easy to add a talking
interface to. Presumably Brian has some apps that already help with the web?

On 17/05/2021 17:23, Andrew wrote:
On 17/05/2021 17:10, Chris Bacon wrote:
On 17/05/2021 08:56, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
I have just, well last week, had an email with a contact number on it to
call and get a smart meter installed complete with a talking consumer
device.

Why would sir want such a thing?

He is blind !, so either essential or very useful to him.

OIC. Do meters give such problems to blind people? I thought that
operatives from the suppliers were still sent out. Maybe the service has
been cut.

Andy Burns wrote:
Tim+ wrote:

Theyre battery powered.

smart gas meters are battery powered (but brian has said before that he
gas no gas supply) but smart electric meters are mains powered, so will
have an internal PSU (presumably switch-mode) and there's precisely
nothing he can do to "unplug" that

Apologies. Youre quite right.

Tim
--
Please don't feed the trolls

On 17/05/2021 18:46, Chris Bacon wrote:
On 17/05/2021 17:23, Andrew wrote:
On 17/05/2021 17:10, Chris Bacon wrote:
On 17/05/2021 08:56, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:

I have just, well last week, had an email with a contact number on
it to
call and get a smart meter installed complete with a talking consumer
device.

Why would sir want such a thing?

He is blind !, so either essential or very useful to him.

OIC. Do meters give such problems to blind people? I thought that
operatives from the suppliers were still sent out. Maybe the service has
been cut.

Smart meters are sold on more than remote metering. We're supposed to be
able to save oodles of money if we consent to having them installed -
not sure how.

--
Max Demian

Max Demian wrote:
On 17/05/2021 18:46, Chris Bacon wrote:
On 17/05/2021 17:23, Andrew wrote:
On 17/05/2021 17:10, Chris Bacon wrote:
On 17/05/2021 08:56, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:

I have just, well last week, had an email with a contact number on
it to
call and get a smart meter installed complete with a talking consumer
device.

Why would sir want such a thing?

He is blind !, so either essential or very useful to him.

OIC. Do meters give such problems to blind people? I thought that
operatives from the suppliers were still sent out. Maybe the service has
been cut.

Smart meters are sold on more than remote metering. We're supposed to be
able to save oodles of money if we consent to having them installed -
not sure how.


By allowing variable tariffs. I currently get 4 hours every night charged
at 5p/kWhr as opposed to 15p during the day. Perfect for charging my car.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

On 17/05/2021 22:37, Max Demian wrote:
Smart meters are sold on more than remote metering. We're supposed to be
able to save oodles of money if we consent to having them installed -
not sure how.

I can't think of a single advantage, except for the car charging thing
that someone mentioned. Indeed, that seems to be the sole reason for the
push to make people have them. So that charging times can be somewhat
controlled.

Tim+ wrote:

I currently get 4 hours every night charged
at 5p/kWhr as opposed to 15p during the day. Perfect for charging my car.

The more people move to that type of tariff, the less advantageous it
will become, ISTR the graphs already show the average and maximum daily
prices creeping up?

Chris Bacon wrote:
On 17/05/2021 22:37, Max Demian wrote:
Smart meters are sold on more than remote metering. We're supposed to be
able to save oodles of money if we consent to having them installed -
not sure how.

I can't think of a single advantage, except for the car charging thing
that someone mentioned. Indeed, that seems to be the sole reason for the
push to make people have them. So that charging times can be somewhat
controlled.



Its not a question of €œcontrolling€� it, its just makes it much more
affordable if you have a significant consumption that you can time-shift to
an off-peak period.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

Andy Burns wrote:
Tim+ wrote:

I currently get 4 hours every night charged
at 5p/kWhr as opposed to 15p during the day. Perfect for charging my car.

The more people move to that type of tariff, the less advantageous it
will become, ISTR the graphs already show the average and maximum daily
prices creeping up?


Indeed. Prices will be going up across the board soon I think and youre
probably right that the peak/off-peak difference will diminish as the
number of EVs increases. Meanwhile, paying 1.5 pence per mile for my fuel
is rather pleasing. ;-)

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

"Andy Burns" wrote in message
...
Tim+ wrote:

I currently get 4 hours every night charged
at 5p/kWhr as opposed to 15p during the day. Perfect for charging my
car.

The more people move to that type of tariff, the less advantageous it will
become, ISTR the graphs already show the average and maximum daily prices
creeping up?

Yup

when I used to have storage rads and use E7, the night rate was less than a
quarter of the standard daytime rate

now you're lucky if you can find a rate better than half (the standard rate,
not the enhanced E7 day rate)

The economics of E7 has gone out the window now.

Chris Bacon wrote:
I can't think of a single advantage, except for the car charging thing
that someone mentioned. Indeed, that seems to be the sole reason for the
push to make people have them. So that charging times can be somewhat
controlled.

They can also tell you whether you have any particularly energy hungry
appliances. For example you might have a really inefficient fridge which
could be because the door seals are leaky and so it's always trying to cool
the room. (They don't tell you per-appliance, but you can deduce things as
they come on and off)

You might find the display makes it easier to correlate with what you do.
For example, on a normal day we would use 10kWh, but if we were doing lots
of washing and drying it might be more like 13-14kWh. So I could say each
dryer load was about 1kWh.

Plus if you are on a low income you can ensure you don't get bill shock at
the end of the month/quarter, since the meter tells you exactly how much
each day costs you. You're more aware of your usage than just when the bill
lands.

These things don't magically happen just by getting one installed, but they
do provide tools which can help save if you're prepared to do a little bit
of work.

Theo

On 18/05/2021 09:25, Tim+ wrote:
Chris Bacon wrote:
I can't think of a single advantage, except for the car charging thing
that someone mentioned. Indeed, that seems to be the sole reason for the
push to make people have them. So that charging times can be somewhat
controlled.

Its not a question of €œcontrolling€� it, its just makes it much more
affordable if you have a significant consumption that you can time-shift to
an off-peak period.

Of course it is. That's the major reason that they're being being
pushed. I can't think of any other real advantage, can you?

Chris Bacon wrote:
On 18/05/2021 09:25, Tim+ wrote:
Chris Bacon wrote:
I can't think of a single advantage, except for the car charging thing
that someone mentioned. Indeed, that seems to be the sole reason for the
push to make people have them. So that charging times can be somewhat
controlled.

Its not a question of €œcontrolling€� it, its just makes it much more
affordable if you have a significant consumption that you can time-shift to
an off-peak period.

Of course it is. That's the major reason that they're being being
pushed. I can't think of any other real advantage, can you?


My smart meter doesnt €œcontrol€� my car charging. I choose when I charge
it. You could argue that Im being €œmanipulated€� into charging my car off
peak overnight. But even without a smart meter I would be charging most
nights anyway so that I start the day with a €œfull tank€�.

Or are you talking about a €œBig brother€� scenario whereby folk could
potentially be cut off remotely?

Tim
--
Please don't feed the trolls

Theo wrote:
Chris Bacon wrote:
I can't think of a single advantage, except for the car charging thing
that someone mentioned. Indeed, that seems to be the sole reason for the
push to make people have them. So that charging times can be somewhat
controlled.

They can also tell you whether you have any particularly energy hungry
appliances. For example you might have a really inefficient fridge which
could be because the door seals are leaky and so it's always trying to cool
the room. (They don't tell you per-appliance, but you can deduce things as
they come on and off)

How would they tell? What's the difference between an 'always on'
fridge and an 'alway on' lamp bulb? The information sent back by the
Smart Meter isn't even real-time as in continuous I don't think so
analysing load patterns isn't going to be seriously possible.

--
Chris Green
·

Chris Green wrote:
Theo wrote:
Chris Bacon wrote:
I can't think of a single advantage, except for the car charging thing
that someone mentioned. Indeed, that seems to be the sole reason for the
push to make people have them. So that charging times can be somewhat
controlled.

They can also tell you whether you have any particularly energy hungry
appliances. For example you might have a really inefficient fridge which
could be because the door seals are leaky and so it's always trying to cool
the room. (They don't tell you per-appliance, but you can deduce things as
they come on and off)

How would they tell? What's the difference between an 'always on'
fridge and an 'alway on' lamp bulb? The information sent back by the
Smart Meter isn't even real-time as in continuous I don't think so
analysing load patterns isn't going to be seriously possible.


By the simple expedient of wandering around your house whilst turning
appliances on and off while looking at the in house display. Not exactly
high tech. Its crude, but easier that having someone shouting out from
you meter cupboard how fast your meter is spinning whist youre doing this.
;-)

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

OK, I asked the question, It can send data back in various increments of ten
minutes according to EDF. I said I don't really care when you do it, since
as long as my bills are accurate fine by me. It cannot solely be for people
with electric cars since they are happy to supply me with one next Monday
morning, lets hope the accessible talking consumer display unit is sent here
early enough for the person to explain how to use it. As I say, they seem to
be pretty relaxed, she also told me that according to records very soon I'd
need a meter change to either a reconditioned one or a smart one as they
only last a certain time in spec anyway. Could all be fluff of course, no
idea. She said as far as they know this meter is compatible with other
suppliers but obviously nobody has a crystal ball.

My main worry is that when he gets here he will say my system is dangerous
and push off again.
I doubt that will be allowed to happen to a blind person living alone
though.
I assume they have to work on the live mains at some point so its not a
job I'd envy!

I'll let you know assuming I'm not living in an unheated cave by Tuesday.
Brian

--

This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Chris Green" wrote in message
...
Theo wrote:
Chris Bacon wrote:
I can't think of a single advantage, except for the car charging thing
that someone mentioned. Indeed, that seems to be the sole reason for
the
push to make people have them. So that charging times can be somewhat
controlled.

They can also tell you whether you have any particularly energy hungry
appliances. For example you might have a really inefficient fridge which
could be because the door seals are leaky and so it's always trying to
cool
the room. (They don't tell you per-appliance, but you can deduce things
as
they come on and off)

How would they tell? What's the difference between an 'always on'
fridge and an 'alway on' lamp bulb? The information sent back by the
Smart Meter isn't even real-time as in continuous I don't think so
analysing load patterns isn't going to be seriously possible.

--
Chris Green
·

On 18/05/2021 09:25, Tim+ wrote:
Chris Bacon wrote:
On 17/05/2021 22:37, Max Demian wrote:
Smart meters are sold on more than remote metering. We're supposed to be
able to save oodles of money if we consent to having them installed -
not sure how.

I can't think of a single advantage, except for the car charging thing
that someone mentioned. Indeed, that seems to be the sole reason for the
push to make people have them. So that charging times can be somewhat
controlled.



Its not a question of €œcontrolling€� it, its just makes it much more
affordable if you have a significant consumption that you can time-shift to
an off-peak period.

Except of course, for most people who do not want to arrange their whole
life around the electricity tariff times, it'll simply mean paying a lot
more because they want to cook (as we move from gas, we'll only have
electric cookers), heat their home (electric heat pumps), have a shower
or a bath (no hot water storage, so electric instantaneous water heater)
wash clothes (both washing machine and tumble dryer to have things ready
for the next day, without staying up very late), etc. at a time that
suits what it going on in their lives.

Those with fewer demands on their time may indeed shift activities, but
those working full time, looking after children/older relatives, etc.
simply don't have the opportunity to match the timing of their use to
pricing.

It is all about demand management, by peak pricing, while simultaneously
gouging those unable to make big changes.

On 18/05/2021 13:26, Theo wrote:
Chris Bacon wrote:
I can't think of a single advantage, except for the car charging thing
that someone mentioned. Indeed, that seems to be the sole reason for the
push to make people have them. So that charging times can be somewhat
controlled.

They can also tell you whether you have any particularly energy hungry
appliances. For example you might have a really inefficient fridge which
could be because the door seals are leaky and so it's always trying to cool
the room. (They don't tell you per-appliance, but you can deduce things as
they come on and off)

You might find the display makes it easier to correlate with what you do.
For example, on a normal day we would use 10kWh, but if we were doing lots
of washing and drying it might be more like 13-14kWh. So I could say each
dryer load was about 1kWh.

Plus if you are on a low income you can ensure you don't get bill shock at
the end of the month/quarter, since the meter tells you exactly how much
each day costs you. You're more aware of your usage than just when the bill
lands.

These things don't magically happen just by getting one installed, but they
do provide tools which can help save if you're prepared to do a little bit
of work.

But you can do all that with a simple, clip on, remote power meter -
without energy companies knowing the peaks and troughs of every
household's usage and constructing tariffs designed to force people to
change usage patterns or be hit financially.

Tim+ wrote:
By the simple expedient of wandering around your house whilst turning
appliances on and off while looking at the in house display. Not exactly
high tech. Its crude, but easier that having someone shouting out from
you meter cupboard how fast your meter is spinning whist youre doing this.
;-)

As well as that, if the display is somewhere central you tend to notice it
change as things happen - eg hear the central heating fire up, that's 200W
for the pump. Turn on the toaster, that's another 1kW, etc. You get to
learn what appliances actually take.

Plus at night when everything is shut down it's a good indicator of your
base load - all those gadgets running 24/7.

I agree this is not for everyone, but I hope it would have an audience
amount the DIY crowd...

Theo

Steve Walker wrote:
Those with fewer demands on their time may indeed shift activities, but
those working full time, looking after children/older relatives, etc.
simply don't have the opportunity to match the timing of their use to
pricing.

Which is where home storage starts to become economically viable.
(batteries now approaching $100/kWh, and system costs will come down as
demand rises)

It is all about demand management, by peak pricing, while simultaneously
gouging those unable to make big changes.

If the generation side of things depends on the weather, how do you expect
demand to match supply without some degree of time shifting? You can't
shift the supply, so it needs the demand shifting (either in consumption or
via storage).

Theo

On 18/05/2021 17:18, Theo wrote:
Steve Walker wrote:
Those with fewer demands on their time may indeed shift activities, but
those working full time, looking after children/older relatives, etc.
simply don't have the opportunity to match the timing of their use to
pricing.

Which is where home storage starts to become economically viable.
(batteries now approaching $100/kWh, and system costs will come down as
demand rises)

It is all about demand management, by peak pricing, while simultaneously
gouging those unable to make big changes.

If the generation side of things depends on the weather, how do you expect
demand to match supply without some degree of time shifting? You can't
shift the supply, so it needs the demand shifting (either in consumption or
via storage).

We should have built more baseload power stations - particular nuclear.

Steve Walker wrote:
We should have built more baseload power stations - particular nuclear.

That ship sailed 10+ years ago. For the one we are building, the wholesale
price per unit is roughly double that of renewables ( in normal conditions)
so it's going to need subsidy to sell its power. It's not cheap baseload
it's expensive baseload.

Theo

On Tue, 18 May 2021 17:43:00 +0100, Steve Walker wrote:

On 18/05/2021 17:18, Theo wrote:
Steve Walker wrote:
Those with fewer demands on their time may indeed shift activities,
but those working full time, looking after children/older relatives,
etc. simply don't have the opportunity to match the timing of their
use to pricing.

Which is where home storage starts to become economically viable.
(batteries now approaching $100/kWh, and system costs will come down as
demand rises)

It is all about demand management, by peak pricing, while
simultaneously gouging those unable to make big changes.

If the generation side of things depends on the weather, how do you
expect demand to match supply without some degree of time shifting?
You can't shift the supply, so it needs the demand shifting (either in
consumption or via storage).

We should have built more baseload power stations - particular nuclear.

+1 Preferably based on LFTR technology rather than cold war inspired
designs (although LFTR had also had its origins based on a military need).

--
Johnny B Good

On 18/05/2021 19:36, Theo wrote:
Steve Walker wrote:
We should have built more baseload power stations - particular nuclear.

That ship sailed 10+ years ago. For the one we are building, the wholesale
price per unit is roughly double that of renewables ( in normal conditions)
so it's going to need subsidy to sell its power. It's not cheap baseload
it's expensive baseload.


I doubt that your figures are true.

We need to factor in reliability of supply. It also does not address
that the cost of renewables (we mean wind) will go up as the best sites
are taken. Getting to 3 times current electricity generation, needed for
heat and transport, will be hard with wind.

On the other hand we could do it with Nuclear and we would expect
Nuclear costs to come down with economies of scale. The problem with
Nuclear is that it is upfront cost and has to fight bull**** and
"something will turn up" arguments. Something may turn up, but I think
it is very rash to rely on it.

"Steve Walker" wrote in message
...
On 18/05/2021 09:25, Tim+ wrote:
Chris Bacon wrote:
On 17/05/2021 22:37, Max Demian wrote:
Smart meters are sold on more than remote metering. We're supposed to
be
able to save oodles of money if we consent to having them installed -
not sure how.

I can't think of a single advantage, except for the car charging thing
that someone mentioned. Indeed, that seems to be the sole reason for the
push to make people have them. So that charging times can be somewhat
controlled.



Its not a question of €œcontrolling€� it, its just makes it much more
affordable if you have a significant consumption that you can time-shift
to
an off-peak period.

Except of course, for most people who do not want to arrange their whole
life around the electricity tariff times, it'll simply mean paying a lot
more because they want to cook (as we move from gas, we'll only have
electric cookers), heat their home (electric heat pumps), have a shower or
a bath (no hot water storage, so electric instantaneous water heater)

Oh I wish

the biggest thing for me if I were to not be allowed to have a gas boiler
[1] would be the loss of instantaneous hot water

there's no property-wide electric equivalent ATM

tim

[1] my house is very well insulated and my heating bills tiny. If I were
to change to all electric heating, my bill would go up by a few 100 pounds
per year with no loss of utility, countered by saving on the gas standing
charge and the annual boiler service.

Tim+ wrote:
Chris Green wrote:
Theo wrote:
Chris Bacon wrote:
I can't think of a single advantage, except for the car charging thing
that someone mentioned. Indeed, that seems to be the sole reason for the
push to make people have them. So that charging times can be somewhat
controlled.

They can also tell you whether you have any particularly energy hungry
appliances. For example you might have a really inefficient fridge which
could be because the door seals are leaky and so it's always trying to cool
the room. (They don't tell you per-appliance, but you can deduce things as
they come on and off)

How would they tell? What's the difference between an 'always on'
fridge and an 'alway on' lamp bulb? The information sent back by the
Smart Meter isn't even real-time as in continuous I don't think so
analysing load patterns isn't going to be seriously possible.


By the simple expedient of wandering around your house whilst turning
appliances on and off while looking at the in house display. Not exactly
high tech. Its crude, but easier that having someone shouting out from
you meter cupboard how fast your meter is spinning whist youre doing this.

'They' aren't going to be wandering around my house! Note that I was
responding to "They can also tell you whether you have any
particularly energy hungry appliances.", to me that implies that
'they' (the electricity supplier) can tell.

.... and how would turning the inefficient fridge on and off tell me
whether it was inefficient or not?

--
Chris Green
·

On 19/05/2021 08:32, tim... wrote:

[1]Â* my house is very well insulated and my heating bills tiny.Â* If I
were to change to all electric heating, my bill would go up by a few 100
pounds per year with no loss of utility, countered by saving on the gas
standing charge and the annual boiler service.


That's it. How are we supposed to justify a £10,000 heat pump cost for a
maximum saving of a few 100 pounds per year.

Pancho wrote:
On 18/05/2021 19:36, Theo wrote:
Steve Walker wrote:
We should have built more baseload power stations - particular nuclear.

That ship sailed 10+ years ago. For the one we are building, the wholesale
price per unit is roughly double that of renewables ( in normal conditions)
so it's going to need subsidy to sell its power. It's not cheap baseload
it's expensive baseload.


I doubt that your figures are true.

Hinkley Point C has a guaranteed purchase price of its nuclear electricity
of £92.50 per MWh (9.25p per kWh):

"The Department for Business, Energy & Industrial Strategy therefore agreed a
deal to support construction of Hinkley Point C in September 2016. The deal
is with NNB Generation Company (HPC) Limited (NNBG), which is owned 66.5% by
Electricite de France (EDF) and 33.5% by China General Nuclear
Power Group (CGN). The deal guarantees that NNBG will receive £92.50
(2012 prices), linked to inflation, for each megawatt hour (MWh) of Hinkley
Point Cs electricity for 35years, with electricity bill payers paying
topups if the market price islower.
....
The Department estimates that between £10 and £15 of the average annual
household electricity bill (in 2012 prices) will go towards supporting
Hinkley Point C up to 2030"
https://publications.parliament.uk/p...cc/393/393.pdf


The day-ahead baseload contract for the grid has been between £40 and £60
per MWh for most of the last decade:
https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/data-portal...lesale-markets

We need to factor in reliability of supply. It also does not address
that the cost of renewables (we mean wind) will go up as the best sites
are taken. Getting to 3 times current electricity generation, needed for
heat and transport, will be hard with wind.

Considering that nuclear electricity is double the cost of renewables,
somebody has to pay for that difference. While reliability of supply is
necessary, it doesn't mean that people won't be exposed to those
differential costs in pricing terms. The lights stay on, but you pay more
for them in times of high demand. If you don't, somebody else does.

On the other hand we could do it with Nuclear and we would expect
Nuclear costs to come down with economies of scale. The problem with
Nuclear is that it is upfront cost and has to fight bull**** and
"something will turn up" arguments. Something may turn up, but I think
it is very rash to rely on it.

+1 One of the railway journalists calls this 'bionic duckweed', some
seductive new technology that will save you from having to do boring work
installing proven technology like electrifying railway lines. Unfortunately
the new technology doesn't exist, but it distracts politicians from
committing to doing the boring but necessary work.

I think all the stuff about hydrogen and small modular reactors and whatnot
have a basic question: can you bring it to market at scale in 5 years? If
not, it's too late - we're going to have to do something else (and maybe
they will be usable technologies when *that* comes up for replacement). I
think for traditional nuclear it just takes too long to build them.

Theo

On 18/05/2021 19:36, Theo wrote:
Steve Walker wrote:
We should have built more baseload power stations - particular nuclear.

That ship sailed 10+ years ago. For the one we are building, the wholesale
price per unit is roughly double that of renewables ( in normal conditions)

no, its two thirds the price of wind power and one third the price of
solar power, and that's before you take into account the cost of backup
power for renewables,


so it's going to need subsidy to sell its power. It's not cheap baseload
it's expensive baseload.
Indeed it is compared with gas, (but not with renewables).

Hence the drive by RR and others to get the SMRs off the ground at about
one third that price.



Theo



--
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign,
that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."

Jonathan Swift.

On 19/05/2021 08:23, Pancho wrote:
On 18/05/2021 19:36, Theo wrote:
Steve Walker wrote:
We should have built more baseload power stations - particular nuclear.

That ship sailed 10+ years ago.Â* For the one we are building, the
wholesale
price per unit is roughly double that of renewables ( in normal
conditions)
so it's going to need subsidy to sell its power.Â* It's not cheap baseload
it's expensive baseload.


I doubt that your figures are true.

We need to factor in reliability of supply. It also does not address
that the cost of renewables (we mean wind) will go up as the best sites
are taken. Getting to 3 times current electricity generation, needed for
heat and transport, will be hard with wind.

On the other hand we could do it with Nuclear and we would expect
Nuclear costs to come down with economies of scale. The problem with
Nuclear is that it is upfront cost and has to fight bull**** and
"something will turn up" arguments. Something may turn up, but I think
it is very rash to rely on it.

Nuclear costs would also fall considerably if the government funded them
as investment and paid it back from selling the electricity, then once
paid back, either dropped the price for each plant in turn, used the
excess it to drop the overall price of electricity or used it to lower
taxes elsewhere.

Instead we rely upon companies borrowing money at much higher rates and
having to agree much higher strike prices to pay the much more expensive
loans back, while making profits.

On 19/05/2021 09:15, Theo wrote:
Pancho wrote:
On 18/05/2021 19:36, Theo wrote:
Steve Walker wrote:
We should have built more baseload power stations - particular nuclear.

That ship sailed 10+ years ago. For the one we are building, the wholesale
price per unit is roughly double that of renewables ( in normal conditions)
so it's going to need subsidy to sell its power. It's not cheap baseload
it's expensive baseload.


I doubt that your figures are true.

Hinkley Point C has a guaranteed purchase price of its nuclear electricity
of £92.50 per MWh (9.25p per kWh):

But how much lower could it have been if the government funded the
build, so there was no need for far more expensive commercial loans,
while also making a profit on top?

Plus repeats of the same design will be a lot cheaper.

Snip

The Department estimates that between £10 and £15 of the average annual
household electricity bill (in 2012 prices) will go towards supporting
Hinkley Point C up to 2030"

A lot cheaper than many of the green subsidies elsewhere, while
providing a steady and continuous supply.

On 19/05/2021 08:23, Pancho wrote:
On 18/05/2021 19:36, Theo wrote:
Steve Walker wrote:
We should have built more baseload power stations - particular nuclear.

That ship sailed 10+ years ago.Â* For the one we are building, the
wholesale
price per unit is roughly double that of renewables ( in normal
conditions)
so it's going to need subsidy to sell its power.Â* It's not cheap baseload
it's expensive baseload.


I doubt that your figures are true.

If you cherry pick 'cost' and ignore subsidy, they are probably true for
something.

I refer you to your electricity bill and the baseline wholesale costs of
existing nuclear hydro coal and gas (around 4p a unit) new nuclear (9.8p
a unit)

In reality wind is 12p a unit plus about 3p for intermittent balancing,
and solar is up in the 30-40p range.

That doesnt factor in the grid upgrades needed to e.g. balance Scottish
generation with English consumption...

We need to factor in reliability of supply. It also does not address
that the cost of renewables (we mean wind) will go up as the best sites
are taken. Getting to 3 times current electricity generation, needed for
heat and transport, will be hard with wind.

On the other hand we could do it with Nuclear and we would expect
Nuclear costs to come down with economies of scale. The problem with
Nuclear is that it is upfront cost and has to fight bull**** and
"something will turn up" arguments. Something may turn up, but I think
it is very rash to rely on it.

The upfront costs of nuclear are two thirds in meeting *regulations*
that often have no impact on safety whatsoever.

This is why there is a drive for SMRs - type approved, factory built, no
complex onsite construction requiring massive inspection , form filling
and box ticking regimes. And small enough to be passive cooled under
SCRAM conditions - no meltdowns.

The technology is not as efficient as as big reactor, but the paperwork
and safety systems are massively reduced.





--
"And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch".

Gospel of St. Mathew 15:14

Theo wrote:

The Department estimates that between £10 and £15 of the average annual
household electricity bill (in 2012 prices) will go towards supporting
Hinkley Point C up to 2030

A small price to have lights that come on when its dark, rather than
when it's bright or windy ...