"[WASHINGTON] Several Pepco customers say they're experiencing irregular
heartbeats, headaches, and dizziness after wireless smart meters were
installed at their homes."

Others have chimed in with complaints as varied as hair falling out, warts,
and loose teeth. One man says his dog no longer knows him. (Of course these
latter symptoms didn't make the story!)

http://www.wusa9.com/news/local/stor...storyid=242905

On 2/12/2013 2:44 PM, HeyBub wrote:
"[WASHINGTON] Several Pepco customers say they're experiencing irregular
heartbeats, headaches, and dizziness after wireless smart meters were
installed at their homes."

Others have chimed in with complaints as varied as hair falling out, warts,
and loose teeth. One man says his dog no longer knows him. (Of course these
latter symptoms didn't make the story!)

http://www.wusa9.com/news/local/stor...storyid=242905



Reminds me of an instrument technician we had back at school who got
sick from the helium in our gas chromatographs.

HeyBub wrote:
"[WASHINGTON] Several Pepco customers say they're
experiencing
irregular heartbeats, headaches, and dizziness after
wireless smart
meters were installed at their homes."

Others have chimed in with complaints as varied as hair
falling out,
warts, and loose teeth. One man says his dog no longer
knows him. (Of
course these latter symptoms didn't make the story!)

http://www.wusa9.com/news/local/stor...storyid=242905

don't know about all that, but my fricken bill has gone up
about 20% since they installed the MF

On 2/12/2013 3:15 PM, ChairMan wrote:
HeyBub wrote:
"[WASHINGTON] Several Pepco customers say they're
experiencing
irregular heartbeats, headaches, and dizziness after
wireless smart
meters were installed at their homes."

Others have chimed in with complaints as varied as hair
falling out,
warts, and loose teeth. One man says his dog no longer
knows him. (Of
course these latter symptoms didn't make the story!)

http://www.wusa9.com/news/local/stor...storyid=242905

don't know about all that, but my fricken bill has gone up
about 20% since they installed the MF



These meters are being installed to save the power company money but the
public service commission here in Delaware has approved a price increase
so the customer pays for them. Wonder who in the hell this makes sense
to? Bribes, corruption - no not our public officials

On 2/12/2013 1:44 PM, HeyBub wrote:
"[WASHINGTON] Several Pepco customers say they're experiencing irregular
heartbeats, headaches, and dizziness after wireless smart meters were
installed at their homes."

Others have chimed in with complaints as varied as hair falling out, warts,
and loose teeth. One man says his dog no longer knows him. (Of course these
latter symptoms didn't make the story!)

http://www.wusa9.com/news/local/stor...storyid=242905


Mental cases will always find something to go mental over.

On Feb 12, 3:28*pm, Frank wrote:
On 2/12/2013 3:15 PM, ChairMan wrote:





HeyBub wrote:
"[WASHINGTON] Several Pepco customers say they're
experiencing
irregular heartbeats, headaches, and dizziness after
wireless smart
meters were installed at their homes."

Others have chimed in with complaints as varied as hair
falling out,
warts, and loose teeth. One man says his dog no longer
knows him. (Of
course these latter symptoms didn't make the story!)

http://www.wusa9.com/news/local/stor...storyid=242905

don't know about all that, but my fricken bill has gone up
about 20% since they installed the MF

These meters are being installed to save the power company money but the
public service commission here in Delaware has approved a price increase
so the customer pays for them. *Wonder who in the hell this makes sense
to? *Bribes, corruption - no not our public officials - Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Mostly to the green environmentalists who buy into the
most extraordiary claims. Like that these meters are
essential to allow solar and wind resources to be used.
WTF? We have solar panels all over the place here
in the Peoples Republic of NJ and no smart meters.
Funny, they seem to work just fine.

The main advantage that I see is they allow for billing
rates to vary by period. That way the utility could charge
higher rates during peak periods and the billing would
more closely reflect your actual usage. An example of
that would be if you charged your electric car at night
and they charged you less because it's off peak. But
for those cases, mabye a better idea is to let those
people who have an electric car and want to get a lower
rate at night, pay for the meter themselves....

On Feb 12, 7:44*pm, "HeyBub" wrote:
"[WASHINGTON] Several Pepco customers say they're experiencing irregular
heartbeats, headaches, and dizziness after wireless smart meters were
installed at their homes."

Others have chimed in with complaints as varied as hair falling out, warts,
and loose teeth. One man says his dog no longer knows him. (Of course these
latter symptoms didn't make the story!)

http://www.wusa9.com/news/local/stor...storyid=242905

Another example of American paranoia.
The same halfwits wander around with a cellphone clamped to their ear.

"Frank" wrote in message
...
On 2/12/2013 3:15 PM, ChairMan wrote:
HeyBub wrote:
"[WASHINGTON] Several Pepco customers say they're
experiencing
irregular heartbeats, headaches, and dizziness after
wireless smart
meters were installed at their homes."

Others have chimed in with complaints as varied as hair
falling out,
warts, and loose teeth. One man says his dog no longer
knows him. (Of
course these latter symptoms didn't make the story!)

http://www.wusa9.com/news/local/stor...storyid=242905

don't know about all that, but my fricken bill has gone up
about 20% since they installed the MF



These meters are being installed to save the power company money but the
public service commission here in Delaware has approved a price increase
so the customer pays for them. Wonder who in the hell this makes sense
to? Bribes, corruption - no not our public officials

Oh, we pay for them too. I paid for 2 years before I got one and as far as i
can tell the charge is forever.
gotta love them *******s of utility commision.............if they were
hangin from a rope

Totally 100% bogus, of course.

On 2/12/2013 3:07 PM, harry wrote:
On Feb 12, 7:44 pm, "HeyBub" wrote:
"[WASHINGTON] Several Pepco customers say they're experiencing irregular
heartbeats, headaches, and dizziness after wireless smart meters were
installed at their homes."

Others have chimed in with complaints as varied as hair falling out, warts,
and loose teeth. One man says his dog no longer knows him. (Of course these
latter symptoms didn't make the story!)

http://www.wusa9.com/news/local/stor...storyid=242905

Another example of American paranoia.
The same halfwits wander around with a cellphone clamped to their ear.


Good grief Harry, you English invented crazy. ^_^

TDD

*We have solar panels all over the place here
in the Peoples Republic of NJ and no smart meters.
Funny, they seem to work just fine.



yeah, I see those small solar panels on the telephone poles all over
NJ.

I figure each panel makes what? $100 worth of electricity per
year??? at best?

how much did it cost the taxpayers to have each one of those installed
on a pole by a crew? and how much will it cost to maintain...

what a scam

Mark

On Feb 12, 7:02*pm, wrote:
On Tue, 12 Feb 2013 13:44:18 -0600, "HeyBub"
wrote:

"[WASHINGTON] Several Pepco customers say they're experiencing irregular
heartbeats, headaches, and dizziness after wireless smart meters were
installed at their homes."

Others have chimed in with complaints as varied as hair falling out, warts,
and loose teeth. One man says his dog no longer knows him. (Of course these
latter symptoms didn't make the story!)

http://www.wusa9.com/news/local/stor...storyid=242905

These people are ****ing nuts. There is far more radiation on a
similar frequency coming from the cell phone in your pocket.

We had a similar problem in Naperville, IL. Two classes of objectors,
the electrophobia nuts, and privacy nuts. Some of the electrophobia
folks did use cellphones, the privacy folks were concerned the
electric dept could figure out they were using kilowatts of power at
2am for their basement marijuana plants. 99% of meters installed
without problems.

On Feb 13, 1:45*am, Mark wrote:
*We have solar panels all over the place here

in the Peoples Republic of NJ and no smart meters.
Funny, they seem to work just fine.

yeah, I see those small solar panels on the telephone poles all over
NJ.

I figure each panel makes *what? *$100 worth of electricity per
year??? at best?

how much did it cost the taxpayers to have each one of those installed
on a pole by a crew? * and how much will it cost to maintain...

what a scam

Mark

We have them here too. Sometimes there is a tiny wind turbine too.
An ex-neighbour of mine has a PV system/battery that powers his
electric driveway gates. Cheaper than running a quarter mile of cable.
They are installed where it would be costly to provide an alternative
source of power

harry wrote in news:dbd3954d-ae20-4dfe-b022-
:


An ex-neighbour of mine has a PV system/battery that powers his
electric driveway gates. Cheaper than running a quarter mile of cable.
They are installed where it would be costly to provide an alternative
source of power




Where I live, such solar panels are often installed immediately under
existing power lines. For example, those flashing lights that sit atop
certain traffic signs; until recently, those lights simply had a short drop
of cable from the overhead power, but now have a solar panel. Abominably
stupid and expensive, but in keeping with the current tyrant's Green
dreams.


--
Tegger

According to your thread These meters are being installed to save the power company money but the
public service commission here in Delaware has approved a price increase
so the customer pays for them.

On 2/13/2013 2:50 AM, Tegger wrote:

Where I live, such solar panels are often installed immediately under
existing power lines. For example, those flashing lights that sit atop
certain traffic signs; until recently, those lights simply had a short drop
of cable from the overhead power, but now have a solar panel. Abominably
stupid and expensive, but in keeping with the current tyrant's Green
dreams.




Where I live, we are running out of fossil fuels.

Maybe we should capture free energy from the sun?

Harry Johnson wrote in
:




Where I live, we are running out of fossil fuels.



You obviously don't live on Earth. Earth currently has a glut of fossil
fuels, and prices are declining.




Maybe we should capture free energy from the sun?





Not if that energy costs many times the price of fossil fuels.



--
Tegger

On Feb 13, 4:16 am, Harry Johnson wrote:


Where I live, we are running out of fossil fuels.

Maybe we should capture free energy from the sun?

Not if it takes more fossil fuel to excavate, refine,
manufacture and distribute a solar panel than the
energy the panel can produce during it's working life.

It is a toy for people who can get government subsidies.

Here's a real world example:

A 25 watt panel costs about $125 . That is the cost
to produce the panel and get it into the hands of a
homeowner -- i.e. the selling price, typically.

Use Dallas as a location. 10 cents per kwh
and a yearly average of 5.5 hours of "full sun" per day.

OK $125 means 1,250,000 watt-hours of electricity

That means 1,250,000 / (5.5 x 25) = 9091 days of
power generation at full panel ability.

That means 9091/365 = 24.9 years to break even on
cost of generated power, assuming zero maintenance
and zero damage from rain and hail.

An unsustainable scenario.......

And if you figure in the cost of external infrastructure
that's needed --- batteries, wiring, power converter,
installation costs, maintenance on the infrastructure...

...... the business decision is a no-brainer....


Solar is a TOY, unless there is no other possible
way.......Even a gasoline generator is more
cost-effective...

On Feb 13, 2:50*am, Tegger wrote:
harry wrote in news:dbd3954d-ae20-4dfe-b022-
:

An ex-neighbour of mine has a PV system/battery that powers his
electric driveway gates. Cheaper than running a quarter mile of cable.
They are installed where it would be costly to provide an alternative
source of power

Where I live, such solar panels are often installed immediately under
existing power lines. For example, those flashing lights that sit atop
certain traffic signs; until recently, those lights simply had a short drop
of cable from the overhead power, but now have a solar panel. Abominably
stupid and expensive, but in keeping with the current tyrant's Green
dreams.

--
Tegger

Yes, harry is as clueless as ever. Probably 95%+ of the solar
installed
is at spots that already have power. Here in NJ, in addition to
seeing
small ones on utility poles, there are bigger arrays on the roofs of a
lot
of homes and businesses. They don't work without the grid being
alive.
If the grid goes down, you have no power.

On Feb 13, 5:06*am, wrote:
On Tue, 12 Feb 2013 23:12:34 -0800 (PST), harry





wrote:
I figure each panel makes *what? *$100 worth of electricity per
year??? at best?

how much did it cost the taxpayers to have each one of those installed
on a pole by a crew? * and how much will it cost to maintain...

what a scam

Mark

We have them here too. Sometimes there is a tiny wind turbine too.
An ex-neighbour of mine has a PV system/battery that powers his
electric driveway gates. Cheaper than running a quarter mile of cable.
They are installed where it would be costly to provide an alternative
source of power

The ones in Jersey are feeding back into the grid.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

As are probably 95% of the rest of the installed ones.

On Feb 13, 10:06*am, wrote:
On Tue, 12 Feb 2013 23:12:34 -0800 (PST), harry









wrote:
I figure each panel makes *what? *$100 worth of electricity per
year??? at best?

how much did it cost the taxpayers to have each one of those installed
on a pole by a crew? * and how much will it cost to maintain...

what a scam

Mark

We have them here too. Sometimes there is a tiny wind turbine too.
An ex-neighbour of mine has a PV system/battery that powers his
electric driveway gates. Cheaper than running a quarter mile of cable.
They are installed where it would be costly to provide an alternative
source of power

The ones in Jersey are feeding back into the grid.

I have PV panels on my house roof that feed back into the grid. Quite
a lot of my neighbours have them too.

On Feb 13, 2:34*pm, Robert wrote:
On Feb 13, 4:16 am, Harry Johnson wrote:



Where I live, we are running out of fossil fuels.

Maybe we should capture free energy from the sun?

Not if it takes more fossil fuel to excavate, refine,
manufacture and distribute a solar panel than the
energy the panel can produce during it's working life.

It is a toy for people who can get government subsidies.

Here's a real world example:

A 25 watt panel costs about $125 . *That is the cost
to produce the panel and get it into the hands of a
homeowner -- i.e. *the selling price, typically.

Use Dallas as a location. *10 cents per *kwh
* and a yearly average of 5.5 hours of "full sun" per day.

OK *$125 *means *1,250,000 watt-hours of electricity

That means * 1,250,000 / (5.5 x 25) *= *9091 days of
* *power generation at full panel ability.

That means 9091/365 = * 24.9 years to break even on
cost of generated power, assuming zero maintenance
and zero damage from rain and hail.

An unsustainable scenario.......

And if you figure in the cost of external infrastructure
that's needed --- batteries, wiring, power converter,
installation costs, maintenance on the infrastructure...

..... the business decision is a no-brainer....

Solar is a TOY, *unless there is no other possible
way.......Even a gasoline generator is more
cost-effective...

Clearly you have never been to Germany.
Solar panels are cost effective because they need no fuel to run
them. Their projected life is around 25 years. And they produce no
pollution once manufactured.
You have to buy gasoline to run your generator. You have to maintain
it and it has a lifetime of a few thousand hours at best. And the cost
of fossil fuels will rise.
And fossil fuels are too valuable to burn.

On Feb 13, 2:39*pm, "
wrote:
On Feb 13, 2:50*am, Tegger wrote:









harry wrote in news:dbd3954d-ae20-4dfe-b022-
:

An ex-neighbour of mine has a PV system/battery that powers his
electric driveway gates. Cheaper than running a quarter mile of cable..
They are installed where it would be costly to provide an alternative
source of power

Where I live, such solar panels are often installed immediately under
existing power lines. For example, those flashing lights that sit atop
certain traffic signs; until recently, those lights simply had a short drop
of cable from the overhead power, but now have a solar panel. Abominably
stupid and expensive, but in keeping with the current tyrant's Green
dreams.

--
Tegger

Yes, harry is as clueless as ever. *Probably 95%+ of the solar
installed
is at spots that already have power. * Here in NJ, in addition to
seeing
small ones on utility poles, there are bigger arrays on the roofs of a
lot
of homes and businesses. *They don't work without the grid being
alive.
If the grid goes down, you have no power.

Well ****fer that is intentional, it is a safety and cost thing.
But you haven't the wit to understand this.
There are standalone systems but they are much more expensive.

On Feb 13, 3:18*pm, wrote:
On Wed, 13 Feb 2013 05:16:31 -0500, Harry Johnson

wrote:

Where I live, we are running out of fossil fuels.

Where is that? Jimmy Carter land?

Have you heard about natural gas?

Heh Heh.
The cost of all fossil fuels is set to rise.
If your fuel can be sold elsewhere for more money. it will be sent
there, don't you worry.
More fuel has been found but there are lots more people want it. Like
the Chinese and Indians.

Meanwhile it is foolish to squander it.
You Yanks never learn.

harry wrote in news:3c5379c8-51f5-4c8b-a3cf-
:

On Feb 13, 2:34*pm, Robert wrote:
On Feb 13, 4:16 am, Harry Johnson wrote:



Where I live, we are running out of fossil fuels.

Maybe we should capture free energy from the sun?

Not if it takes more fossil fuel to excavate, refine,
manufacture and distribute a solar panel than the
energy the panel can produce during it's working life.

It is a toy for people who can get government subsidies.

Here's a real world example:

A 25 watt panel costs about $125 . *That is the cost
to produce the panel and get it into the hands of a
homeowner -- i.e. *the selling price, typically.

Use Dallas as a location. *10 cents per *kwh
* and a yearly average of 5.5 hours of "full sun" per day.

OK *$125 *means *1,250,000 watt-hours of electricity

That means * 1,250,000 / (5.5 x 25) *= *9091 days of
* *power generation at full panel ability.

That means 9091/365 = * 24.9 years to break even on
cost of generated power, assuming zero maintenance
and zero damage from rain and hail.

An unsustainable scenario.......

And if you figure in the cost of external infrastructure
that's needed --- batteries, wiring, power converter,
installation costs, maintenance on the infrastructure...

..... the business decision is a no-brainer....

Solar is a TOY, *unless there is no other possible
way.......Even a gasoline generator is more
cost-effective...

Clearly you have never been to Germany.
Solar panels are cost effective because they need no fuel to run
them. Their projected life is around 25 years. And they produce no
pollution once manufactured.
You have to buy gasoline to run your generator. You have to maintain
it and it has a lifetime of a few thousand hours at best. And the cost
of fossil fuels will rise.
And fossil fuels are too valuable to burn.


And you have to buy a new Solar DC-AC convertor, when the old one fails
after a few years.
Want to estimate the cost, when your original supplier is out of bizness?
My guessimate comes out at 4 to 8000 dollars/euros.
Not to mention, what replacing one or two failing panels costs.
25 years without maintenance costs is quite impossible....
You need panels with the same properties.........

Sjouke Burry s@b writes:

harry wrote in news:3c5379c8-51f5-4c8b-a3cf-
:

On Feb 13, 2:34Â*pm, Robert wrote:
On Feb 13, 4:16 am, Harry Johnson wrote:



Where I live, we are running out of fossil fuels.

Maybe we should capture free energy from the sun?

Not if it takes more fossil fuel to excavate, refine,
manufacture and distribute a solar panel than the
energy the panel can produce during it's working life.

It is a toy for people who can get government subsidies.

Here's a real world example:

A 25 watt panel costs about $125 . Â*That is the cost
to produce the panel and get it into the hands of a
homeowner -- i.e. Â*the selling price, typically.

Use Dallas as a location. Â*10 cents per Â*kwh
Â* and a yearly average of 5.5 hours of "full sun" per day.

OK Â*$125 Â*means Â*1,250,000 watt-hours of electricity

That means Â* 1,250,000 / (5.5 x 25) Â*= Â*9091 days of
Â* Â*power generation at full panel ability.

That means 9091/365 = Â* 24.9 years to break even on
cost of generated power, assuming zero maintenance
and zero damage from rain and hail.

An unsustainable scenario.......

And if you figure in the cost of external infrastructure
that's needed --- batteries, wiring, power converter,
installation costs, maintenance on the infrastructure...

..... the business decision is a no-brainer....

Solar is a TOY, Â*unless there is no other possible
way.......Even a gasoline generator is more
cost-effective...

Clearly you have never been to Germany.
Solar panels are cost effective because they need no fuel to run
them. Their projected life is around 25 years. And they produce no
pollution once manufactured.
You have to buy gasoline to run your generator. You have to maintain
it and it has a lifetime of a few thousand hours at best. And the cost
of fossil fuels will rise.
And fossil fuels are too valuable to burn.


And you have to buy a new Solar DC-AC convertor, when the old one fails
after a few years.

A few years?

My first hit on MTBF for DC-AC converter says 1 million hours.
365*24 = 8760. Looks like 114 years.

Seems a little high, but a few years sounds nuts.

Those Chinese must be pretty clever if they can sell something like
that.

--
Dan Espen

"Robert" wrote in message
...
On Feb 13, 4:16 am, Harry Johnson wrote:


Where I live, we are running out of fossil fuels.

Maybe we should capture free energy from the sun?

Not if it takes more fossil fuel to excavate, refine,
manufacture and distribute a solar panel than the
energy the panel can produce during it's working life.

It is a toy for people who can get government subsidies.

Here's a real world example:

A 25 watt panel costs about $125 . That is the cost
to produce the panel and get it into the hands of a
homeowner -- i.e. the selling price, typically.

Use Dallas as a location. 10 cents per kwh
and a yearly average of 5.5 hours of "full sun" per day.

OK $125 means 1,250,000 watt-hours of electricity

That means 1,250,000 / (5.5 x 25) = 9091 days of
power generation at full panel ability.

That means 9091/365 = 24.9 years to break even on
cost of generated power, assuming zero maintenance
and zero damage from rain and hail.

An unsustainable scenario.......

And if you figure in the cost of external infrastructure
that's needed --- batteries, wiring, power converter,
installation costs, maintenance on the infrastructure...

..... the business decision is a no-brainer....


Solar is a TOY, unless there is no other possible
way.......Even a gasoline generator is more
cost-effective...



Here is a real world example of solar power. I have known the fellow for
over 30 years and have listened to two short speaches of his . One about 2
years ago and another this week.
http://www.kenclifton.com/wordpress/

For his house, he usually has a surplus of power he sends back to the power
grid. One of his last power bills was showing a negative $ 50. The power
company will not pay him for the excess powe,but atleast it does not cost
him.

I think he said right now you could get about a 60% tax credit so the cost
is less than half the list price.
He does not put up small 25 watt panels, but 4500 watt panels that are about
16 feet square if I remember right. Don't remember if they were 17,000 each
or that was the total of what he had before the tax credit.

One point he made was that everything the power company tells you, do the
opposit. One example is he uses metered power. That is he pays for power
at the same rate it is bought back at. There is another way that you buy
power at a higher rate and they pay you less for your power.

He has lots of good points that many over look.

"Sjouke Burry" s@b wrote in message
2.10...
And you have to buy a new Solar DC-AC convertor, when the old one fails
after a few years.
Want to estimate the cost, when your original supplier is out of bizness?
My guessimate comes out at 4 to 8000 dollars/euros.
Not to mention, what replacing one or two failing panels costs.
25 years without maintenance costs is quite impossible....
You need panels with the same properties.........

There are now 'microinverters' that only produce about 300 watts and are
easy to replace. You do have about 24 of them per panel. With todays cost
it only takes about 5 years for a payback when you factor in all the tax
breaks in the US.

Again look here for a real user.
http://www.kenclifton.com/wordpress/

On Feb 13, 12:08*pm, harry wrote:
On Feb 13, 2:39*pm, "
wrote:





On Feb 13, 2:50*am, Tegger wrote:

harry wrote in news:dbd3954d-ae20-4dfe-b022-
:

An ex-neighbour of mine has a PV system/battery that powers his
electric driveway gates. Cheaper than running a quarter mile of cable.
They are installed where it would be costly to provide an alternative
source of power

Where I live, such solar panels are often installed immediately under
existing power lines. For example, those flashing lights that sit atop
certain traffic signs; until recently, those lights simply had a short drop
of cable from the overhead power, but now have a solar panel. Abominably
stupid and expensive, but in keeping with the current tyrant's Green
dreams.

--
Tegger

Yes, harry is as clueless as ever. *Probably 95%+ of the solar
installed
is at spots that already have power. * Here in NJ, in addition to
seeing
small ones on utility poles, there are bigger arrays on the roofs of a
lot
of homes and businesses. *They don't work without the grid being
alive.
If the grid goes down, you have no power.

Well ****fer that is intentional, it is a safety and cost thing.

Safety thing? Cost thing? Clueless as ever.
The essence of the problem is that without the
grid, the power from a solar array would vary all
over the place. What do you think would happen
to your furnace or TV every time a cloud came by?




But you haven't the wit to understand this.
There are standalone systems but they are much more expensive.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You haven't the wit to understand that those solar
panels mounted on utility poles by the power company
are obviously connected to the grid. THAT is what
you were replying to.

On Feb 13, 2:26*pm, wrote:
On Wed, 13 Feb 2013 13:31:43 -0500, "Ralph Mowery"

wrote:
I think he said right now you could get about a 60% tax credit so the cost
is less than half the list price.

That is the only way these things make sense, perhaps the most
regressive program since the Social Security tax.

Poor people pay more for power and a bigger tax bite *so rich people
can buy solar collectors.

That pretty much sums it up. Here in the Peoples Republic
of NJ, that's how it works. They put a tax on everyones
electric bill. That money goes to send nice, big fat checks
to the NJ folks that put up solar collectors. Those checks,
plus the federal tax credits are what makes it have an
acceptable pay back to install. And you get those big fat
checks, not for any excess power you produce, but just
based on the total power you produce, whether you use
it for you hot tub or send it to the grid. Most people use
all they produce.

On 2/13/2013 1:48 PM, wrote:
On Feb 13, 2:26 pm, wrote:
On Wed, 13 Feb 2013 13:31:43 -0500, "Ralph Mowery"

wrote:
I think he said right now you could get about a 60% tax credit so the cost
is less than half the list price.

That is the only way these things make sense, perhaps the most
regressive program since the Social Security tax.

Poor people pay more for power and a bigger tax bite so rich people
can buy solar collectors.

That pretty much sums it up. Here in the Peoples Republic
of NJ, that's how it works. They put a tax on everyones
electric bill. That money goes to send nice, big fat checks
to the NJ folks that put up solar collectors. Those checks,
plus the federal tax credits are what makes it have an
acceptable pay back to install. And you get those big fat
checks, not for any excess power you produce, but just
based on the total power you produce, whether you use
it for you hot tub or send it to the grid. Most people use
all they produce.


even better, here in AZ, they just increased the eco monthly fee because
the utility isn't making enough profit, because everyone is generating
too much power, economizing, installing cfl, and shifting power usage to
off hours.

Sounds right. Encourage everyone to conserve,
and then raise the price when they do. Only in the
USA.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"chaniarts"
wrote in message ...

even better, here in AZ, they just increased the eco
monthly fee because the utility isn't making enough
profit, because everyone is generating too much
power, economizing, installing cfl, and shifting
power usage to off hours.

wrote in message
...
program since the Social Security tax.

Poor people pay more for power and a bigger tax bite so rich people
can buy solar collectors.

That pretty much sums it up. Here in the Peoples Republic
of NJ, that's how it works. They put a tax on everyones
electric bill. That money goes to send nice, big fat checks
to the NJ folks that put up solar collectors. Those checks,
plus the federal tax credits are what makes it have an
acceptable pay back to install. And you get those big fat
checks, not for any excess power you produce, but just
based on the total power you produce, whether you use
it for you hot tub or send it to the grid. Most people use
all they produce.

If sized about right, you use the power grid as your 'storage battery'. In
this fellows case, the house is empty most of the day. The power time of
day usage is higher, then he and family is home at night. Daytime power
cost is about 15 cents per hour, and night time power is about 5 cents per
hour. So he is selling most of the power at a higher rate and buying it
back at a lower rate.

Think I said he show a bill where his usage was a negative $ 51 for the
month.
He will not get payed for this, but will be able to apply it to a month with
a positive usage if he has one.

This fellow is not that rich, but smart enough to work the system.
I think he calculated his payback was 5 or 6 years, but the power comapny
has has one rate hike and is asking for another 10% so the payback is going
to be slightly less, especially if they average 5% or more every year.

One other thing that helps is to have enough land to put up the big
collectors. He had 2 that were 16 feet each way and I think he installed
another one mainly for his electric car.

harry wrote in news:3c5379c8-51f5-4c8b-a3cf-
:


Solar panels are cost effective because



Better put "cost effective" in quotation marks. They are severely
/un-effective/ if you count the subsidies they get.


--
Tegger

"chaniarts" wrote in message
...

even better, here in AZ, they just increased the eco monthly fee because
the utility isn't making enough profit, because everyone is generating too
much power, economizing, installing cfl, and shifting power usage to off
hours.

Sounds like what hapened about 20 years ago in NC. They were begging people
to turn off their ACs and such for a while to keep from overloading the
system. That fall, same story . Did not use enough power so needed a rate
hike.

On 2/13/2013 2:18 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:

wrote in message
...
program since the Social Security tax.

Poor people pay more for power and a bigger tax bite so rich people
can buy solar collectors.

That pretty much sums it up. Here in the Peoples Republic
of NJ, that's how it works. They put a tax on everyones
electric bill. That money goes to send nice, big fat checks
to the NJ folks that put up solar collectors. Those checks,
plus the federal tax credits are what makes it have an
acceptable pay back to install. And you get those big fat
checks, not for any excess power you produce, but just
based on the total power you produce, whether you use
it for you hot tub or send it to the grid. Most people use
all they produce.

If sized about right, you use the power grid as your 'storage battery'. In
this fellows case, the house is empty most of the day. The power time of
day usage is higher, then he and family is home at night. Daytime power
cost is about 15 cents per hour, and night time power is about 5 cents per
hour. So he is selling most of the power at a higher rate and buying it
back at a lower rate.

Think I said he show a bill where his usage was a negative $ 51 for the
month.
He will not get payed for this, but will be able to apply it to a month with
a positive usage if he has one.

This fellow is not that rich, but smart enough to work the system.
I think he calculated his payback was 5 or 6 years, but the power comapny
has has one rate hike and is asking for another 10% so the payback is going
to be slightly less, especially if they average 5% or more every year.

One other thing that helps is to have enough land to put up the big
collectors. He had 2 that were 16 feet each way and I think he installed
another one mainly for his electric car.



not uncommon. my bill for electricity for the entire last year was -$40.
in az. with 2 air conditioners on my house, and running a kiln for days
at a time.

i calculated my payback before i purchased the system at 4.5 years. i'm
on track to beat that by a few months if there are no rate increases. if
there are some, then it will be even earlier.

"Ralph Mowery" wrote in
m:


"Sjouke Burry" s@b wrote in message
2.10...
And you have to buy a new Solar DC-AC convertor, when the old one
fails after a few years.
Want to estimate the cost, when your original supplier is out of
bizness? My guessimate comes out at 4 to 8000 dollars/euros.
Not to mention, what replacing one or two failing panels costs.
25 years without maintenance costs is quite impossible....
You need panels with the same properties.........

There are now 'microinverters' that only produce about 300 watts and
are easy to replace. You do have about 24 of them per panel. With
todays cost it only takes about 5 years for a payback when you factor
in all the tax breaks in the US.

Again look here for a real user.
http://www.kenclifton.com/wordpress/




My neighbour is a real user, about 16 big panels.
The panels are in series, and the convertor
converts high-voltage DC to 240 V ac.
I am an electronic engineer, and I know some high-voltage equipment
to fail on occasion.
Even if a salesman tries to convince me thats not the case.
Besides, the whole installation came from China, in a multi-customer
contract to a chinese firm, including installation and convertor.
It is not a simple convertor, a lot of smart control buildin.
Now where to find such an animal in about 5 years?????
A failng panel is easier, you can take it out of the loop, and keep
on using the rest. That just decreases efficiency.

"Robert" wrote in message
...
On Feb 13, 4:16 am, Harry Johnson wrote:


Where I live, we are running out of fossil fuels.

Maybe we should capture free energy from the sun?

Not if it takes more fossil fuel to excavate, refine,
manufacture and distribute a solar panel than the
energy the panel can produce during it's working life.

It is a toy for people who can get government subsidies.

Here's a real world example:

A 25 watt panel costs about $125 . That is the cost
to produce the panel and get it into the hands of a
homeowner -- i.e. the selling price, typically.

Use Dallas as a location. 10 cents per kwh
and a yearly average of 5.5 hours of "full sun" per day.

OK $125 means 1,250,000 watt-hours of electricity

That means 1,250,000 / (5.5 x 25) = 9091 days of
power generation at full panel ability.

That means 9091/365 = 24.9 years to break even on
cost of generated power, assuming zero maintenance
and zero damage from rain and hail.

An unsustainable scenario.......

And if you figure in the cost of external infrastructure
that's needed --- batteries, wiring, power converter,
installation costs, maintenance on the infrastructure...

..... the business decision is a no-brainer....


Solar is a TOY, unless there is no other possible
way.......Even a gasoline generator is more
cost-effective...

We had a place in the mountains (E Tenn./W NC) that was 100% off grid. ROI
pay out was ~5/6 years. Still working when we sold ~ 20 years. We made a
good profit on the sale. over and above the value of the land/improvements.
During a few ice storms we were the only 'bright' spot on the mountain for
miles around.

We had a LPG gen set for standby power that was run ONLY for maintance.

Theory don't mean sh|t if it don't work in the real world.

On Feb 13, 5:29*pm, Sjouke Burry s@b wrote:
harry wrote in news:3c5379c8-51f5-4c8b-a3cf-
:









On Feb 13, 2:34 pm, Robert wrote:
On Feb 13, 4:16 am, Harry Johnson wrote:

Where I live, we are running out of fossil fuels.

Maybe we should capture free energy from the sun?

Not if it takes more fossil fuel to excavate, refine,
manufacture and distribute a solar panel than the
energy the panel can produce during it's working life.

It is a toy for people who can get government subsidies.

Here's a real world example:

A 25 watt panel costs about $125 . That is the cost
to produce the panel and get it into the hands of a
homeowner -- i.e. the selling price, typically.

Use Dallas as a location. 10 cents per kwh
and a yearly average of 5.5 hours of "full sun" per day.

OK $125 means 1,250,000 watt-hours of electricity

That means 1,250,000 / (5.5 x 25) = 9091 days of
power generation at full panel ability.

That means 9091/365 = 24.9 years to break even on
cost of generated power, assuming zero maintenance
and zero damage from rain and hail.

An unsustainable scenario.......

And if you figure in the cost of external infrastructure
that's needed --- batteries, wiring, power converter,
installation costs, maintenance on the infrastructure...

..... the business decision is a no-brainer....

Solar is a TOY, unless there is no other possible
way.......Even a gasoline generator is more
cost-effective...

Clearly you have never been to Germany.
Solar panels are cost effective *because they need no fuel to run
them. Their projected life is around 25 years. *And they produce no
pollution once manufactured.
You have to buy gasoline to run your generator. You have to maintain
it and it has a lifetime of a few thousand hours at best. And the cost
of fossil fuels will rise.
And fossil fuels are too valuable to burn.

And you have to buy a new Solar DC-AC convertor, when the old one fails
after a few years.
Want to estimate the cost, when your original supplier is out of bizness?
My guessimate comes out at 4 to 8000 dollars/euros.
Not to mention, what replacing one or two failing panels costs.
25 years without maintenance costs is quite impossible....
You need panels with the same properties.........

Well you must have pretty poor "grid tie inverters" (the correct term)
in the USA.
Or is this more republican propaganda?

Some have run for decades in Europe. There are no moving parts and if
they are in a cool dust free environment they run for a long long
time.
What maintenance do you imagine you to something with no moving parts
that is self cleaning when it rains?


I know many people with PV arrays. I don't know one that has failed.
They are deemed to loose 1% max. of output/year.

Prices of the equipment has been in near free fall of late in Europe
so any failures will be much cheaper to replace than I paid initially.
I imagine this is so in the USA too.

On Feb 13, 6:31*pm, "Ralph Mowery" wrote:
"Robert" wrote in message

....









On Feb 13, 4:16 am, Harry Johnson wrote:

Where I live, we are running out of fossil fuels.

Maybe we should capture free energy from the sun?

Not if it takes more fossil fuel to excavate, refine,
manufacture and distribute a solar panel than the
energy the panel can produce during it's working life.

It is a toy for people who can get government subsidies.

Here's a real world example:

A 25 watt panel costs about $125 . *That is the cost
to produce the panel and get it into the hands of a
homeowner -- i.e. *the selling price, typically.

Use Dallas as a location. *10 cents per *kwh
*and a yearly average of 5.5 hours of "full sun" per day.

OK *$125 *means *1,250,000 watt-hours of electricity

That means * 1,250,000 / (5.5 x 25) *= *9091 days of
* power generation at full panel ability.

That means 9091/365 = * 24.9 years to break even on
cost of generated power, assuming zero maintenance
and zero damage from rain and hail.

An unsustainable scenario.......

And if you figure in the cost of external infrastructure
that's needed --- batteries, wiring, power converter,
installation costs, maintenance on the infrastructure...

..... the business decision is a no-brainer....

Solar is a TOY, *unless there is no other possible
way.......Even a gasoline generator is more
cost-effective...

Here is a real world example of solar power. *I have known *the fellow for
over 30 years and have listened to two short speaches of his . One about 2
years ago and another this week.http://www.kenclifton.com/wordpress/

For his house, he usually has a surplus of power he sends back to the power
grid. * One of his last power bills was showing a negative $ 50. *The power
company will not pay him for the excess powe,but atleast it does not cost
him.

I think he said right now you could get about a 60% tax credit so the cost
is less than half the list price.
He does not put up small 25 watt panels, but 4500 watt panels that are about
16 feet square if I remember right. *Don't remember if they were 17,000 each
or that was the total of what he had before the tax credit.

One point he made was that everything the power company tells you, do the
opposit. *One example is he uses metered power. *That is he pays for power
at the same rate it is bought back at. *There is another way that you buy
power at a higher rate and they pay you less for your power.

He has lots of good points that many over look.

Yes you are about right.
In the UK we are paid for all the power we generate.
The rate is tax free and inflation linked.
The return is about 18% on outlay for me.
The deal you get now is less good but better than leaving money in the
bank at near zero interest rates.