"[WASHINGTON] Millions of households across America are taking a first step
into the world of the "smart grid," as their power companies install meters
that can tell them how much electricity they are using hour by hour - and
sometimes, appliance by appliance. But not everyone is happy about it."

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/14/us...ef=instapundit

On Dec 15, 10:31*am, "HeyBub" wrote:
"[WASHINGTON] Millions of households across America are taking a first step
into the world of the "smart grid," as their power companies install meters
that can tell them how much electricity they are using hour by hour - and
sometimes, appliance by appliance. But not everyone is happy about it."

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/14/us...ef=instapundit

Seems to me to be similar to the mystery pricing adopted by the big
oil companies. No one has any really clear reason why gas prices go up
20 cents or more in one day and down 10 cents the next. The oil
companies say the prices are set by traders in the market (who don't
even own the product). Another case of pointing the finger at the
phantom world of financial derivatives?

Joe

HeyBub wrote:
"[WASHINGTON] Millions of households across America are taking a first step
into the world of the "smart grid," as their power companies install meters
that can tell them how much electricity they are using hour by hour - and
sometimes, appliance by appliance. But not everyone is happy about it."

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/14/us...ef=instapundit



I see a way for the government to control you through taxing your
energy usage based on the time of day. Or, law enforcement seeing
your power usage and deciding that you must be doing something
illegal like growing pot in your basement. It's all about control,
I knew it when BeeHO started yapping about smart grid technology.
Control the energy supply, control access to health care, control
the flow of information (kill conservative talk radio) which will
lead to control of the citizenry which will turn them into subjects.
Hell people, just give up now!

TDD

On Tue, 15 Dec 2009 10:31:29 -0600, HeyBub wrote:

"[WASHINGTON] Millions of households across America are taking a first step
into the world of the "smart grid," as their power companies install meters
that can tell them how much electricity they are using hour by hour - and
sometimes, appliance by appliance. But not everyone is happy about it."

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/14/us...ef=instapundit

Hmm, might it be that the new meters aren't measuring the load in
the same way as the meters they're replacing?

I suppose I wouldn't mind a meter with an RS232 or (spit!) a USB port on
it, so *I* could query consumption at any time...

Jules wrote:
On Tue, 15 Dec 2009 10:31:29 -0600, HeyBub wrote:

"[WASHINGTON] Millions of households across America are taking a
first step into the world of the "smart grid," as their power
companies install meters that can tell them how much electricity
they are using hour by hour - and sometimes, appliance by
appliance. But not everyone is happy about it."

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/14/us...ef=instapundit

Hmm, might it be that the new meters aren't measuring the load in
the same way as the meters they're replacing?

I suppose I wouldn't mind a meter with an RS232 or (spit!) a USB port
on it, so *I* could query consumption at any time...

Not so much "control", just a blatant method of raising the prices while
saying it is your fault it costs so much. Get used to doing your laundry and
cooking after midnight, that is when the rates you have now will kick in,
while the daytime and evening rates will skyrocket. We have these meters
here but the local utility hasn't started billing according to time of day.

Polititians all claimed we would save money, just like they did when they
implented "free market" to the natural gas heating. It all costs much more
than one could ever imagine. My electric bill is now approaching $500.00 per
month, where only a few years ago we had the lowest electric rates on the
continent. And that is before they implement the time of day billing.

On Tue, 15 Dec 2009 13:17:54 -0500, EXT wrote:
Not so much "control", just a blatant method of raising the prices while
saying it is your fault it costs so much. Get used to doing your laundry and
cooking after midnight, that is when the rates you have now will kick in,
while the daytime and evening rates will skyrocket. We have these meters
here but the local utility hasn't started billing according to time of day.

I'm pretty sure ours is a flat hourly rate, no matter what time of day -
but the rate *does* change after n kWh on each bill. We've got the dryer,
water heater and the baseboards all on an off-peak tariff, so those are
pretty cheap no matter when they use them - but they're a bit
unpredicatable as to when they work...

My electric bill is now approaching $500.00 per month

Ouch. I don't think ours ever goes above $200, and that's with all the
electric baseboards (family of 5, couple of computers running 24x7,
electric stove - plus a fridge/freezer that's over 30 years old and
probably inefficient as hell...)

cheers

Jules

The Daring Dufas wrote:
HeyBub wrote:
"[WASHINGTON] Millions of households across America are taking a
first step into the world of the "smart grid," as their power
companies install meters that can tell them how much electricity
they are using hour by hour - and sometimes, appliance by appliance.
But not everyone is happy about it."
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/14/us...ef=instapundit



I see a way for the government to control you through taxing your
energy usage based on the time of day. Or, law enforcement seeing
your power usage and deciding that you must be doing something
illegal like growing pot in your basement. It's all about control,
I knew it when BeeHO started yapping about smart grid technology.
Control the energy supply, control access to health care, control
the flow of information (kill conservative talk radio) which will
lead to control of the citizenry which will turn them into subjects.
Hell people, just give up now!

Another FOX "news" viewer?

On Tue, 15 Dec 2009 13:17:54 -0500, EXT wrote:
Not so much "control", just a blatant method of raising the prices while
saying it is your fault it costs so much. Get used to doing your laundry and
cooking after midnight, that is when the rates you have now will kick in,
while the daytime and evening rates will skyrocket. We have these meters
here but the local utility hasn't started billing according to time of day.

It's a form of rationing that the rich aren't subject to because it's
chump change to them.

I would rather see ration coupons wherein people could sell their
unneed coupons on the open market.
--
Work is the curse of the drinking class.

Bob F wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:
HeyBub wrote:
"[WASHINGTON] Millions of households across America are taking a
first step into the world of the "smart grid," as their power
companies install meters that can tell them how much electricity
they are using hour by hour - and sometimes, appliance by appliance.
But not everyone is happy about it."
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/14/us...ef=instapundit



I see a way for the government to control you through taxing your
energy usage based on the time of day. Or, law enforcement seeing
your power usage and deciding that you must be doing something
illegal like growing pot in your basement. It's all about control,
I knew it when BeeHO started yapping about smart grid technology.
Control the energy supply, control access to health care, control
the flow of information (kill conservative talk radio) which will
lead to control of the citizenry which will turn them into subjects.
Hell people, just give up now!

Another FOX "news" viewer?

The article is from the New York Times. If you mean these comments, he can't
be a Fox viewer because Fox does not counsel 'giving up.' In fact the
network's motto is "Never give up! Never surrender!"

I stayed up one night and saw their "sign-off." It went something like this
(paraphrasing):

"Just there the barbarians huddle, sheer terror gripping tight their hearts
with icy fingers. Knowing full well the horrors they faced at the hands of
300, they stare now across the plains at TEN THOUSAND Spartans commanding
THIRTY THOUSAND free Greeks! Today we rescue a world from mysticism and
tyranny and usher in future brighter than anything we can imagine!"

Or maybe it was the end of a DVD.

I forget.

Caesar Romano wrote:
On Tue, 15 Dec 2009 13:17:54 -0500, EXT wrote:
Not so much "control", just a blatant method of raising the prices
while saying it is your fault it costs so much. Get used to doing
your laundry and cooking after midnight, that is when the rates you
have now will kick in, while the daytime and evening rates will
skyrocket. We have these meters here but the local utility hasn't
started billing according to time of day.

It's a form of rationing that the rich aren't subject to because it's
chump change to them.

I would rather see ration coupons wherein people could sell their
unneed coupons on the open market.

It's called "Cap-and-Trade." You're not alone in wanting it. It's the goal
of the Luddites.

EXT wrote:
Jules wrote:
On Tue, 15 Dec 2009 10:31:29 -0600, HeyBub wrote:

"[WASHINGTON] Millions of households across America are taking a
first step into the world of the "smart grid," as their power
companies install meters that can tell them how much electricity
they are using hour by hour - and sometimes, appliance by
appliance. But not everyone is happy about it."

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/14/us...ef=instapundit

Hmm, might it be that the new meters aren't measuring the load in
the same way as the meters they're replacing?

I suppose I wouldn't mind a meter with an RS232 or (spit!) a USB port
on it, so *I* could query consumption at any time...

Not so much "control", just a blatant method of raising the prices while
saying it is your fault it costs so much. Get used to doing your laundry
and cooking after midnight, that is when the rates you have now will
kick in, while the daytime and evening rates will skyrocket. We have
these meters here but the local utility hasn't started billing according
to time of day.

We've been doing that for a long time...sign up for the plan, receive a
monthly discount for limiting up to 15 minutes use of the AC and water
heater during peak times. Elec. power supply goofy enough here in FL
that one does not want to risk MORE outages than needed. Our power
blinks off for a second or two often enough to be truly
irritating...interval is about how long it takes me to get around to
resetting the clocks on ALL of my labor-saving devices )

Polititians all claimed we would save money, just like they did when
they implented "free market" to the natural gas heating. It all costs
much more than one could ever imagine. My electric bill is now
approaching $500.00 per month, where only a few years ago we had the
lowest electric rates on the continent. And that is before they
implement the time of day billing.

On Tue, 15 Dec 2009 14:38:46 -0600, "HeyBub"
wrote Re On "Smart" power meters:

Caesar Romano wrote:
On Tue, 15 Dec 2009 13:17:54 -0500, EXT wrote:
Not so much "control", just a blatant method of raising the prices
while saying it is your fault it costs so much. Get used to doing
your laundry and cooking after midnight, that is when the rates you
have now will kick in, while the daytime and evening rates will
skyrocket. We have these meters here but the local utility hasn't
started billing according to time of day.

It's a form of rationing that the rich aren't subject to because it's
chump change to them.

I would rather see ration coupons wherein people could sell their
unneed coupons on the open market.

It's called "Cap-and-Trade." You're not alone in wanting it. It's the goal
of the Luddites.


Sorry, I didn't explain myself well. What I would really like to see
is about 150 new nuclear power plants built in the U.S. But that's not
going to happen, so we are going to see some kind of rationing soon.
Given that, I would rather see coupon-rationing rather than price
rationing since price-rationing only applies to the middle class.

--
Work is the curse of the drinking class.

Bob F wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:
HeyBub wrote:
"[WASHINGTON] Millions of households across America are taking a
first step into the world of the "smart grid," as their power
companies install meters that can tell them how much electricity
they are using hour by hour - and sometimes, appliance by appliance.
But not everyone is happy about it."
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/14/us...ef=instapundit


I see a way for the government to control you through taxing your
energy usage based on the time of day. Or, law enforcement seeing
your power usage and deciding that you must be doing something
illegal like growing pot in your basement. It's all about control,
I knew it when BeeHO started yapping about smart grid technology.
Control the energy supply, control access to health care, control
the flow of information (kill conservative talk radio) which will
lead to control of the citizenry which will turn them into subjects.
Hell people, just give up now!

Another FOX "news" viewer?


I listen to all of the news outlets when I get a chance, no favorite.

Sorry, I'm not a Republican, Republicans disgust me but Democrats are
special, they horrify me.

TDD

HeyBub wrote:
Bob F wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:
HeyBub wrote:
"[WASHINGTON] Millions of households across America are taking a
first step into the world of the "smart grid," as their power
companies install meters that can tell them how much electricity
they are using hour by hour - and sometimes, appliance by appliance.
But not everyone is happy about it."
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/14/us...ef=instapundit


I see a way for the government to control you through taxing your
energy usage based on the time of day. Or, law enforcement seeing
your power usage and deciding that you must be doing something
illegal like growing pot in your basement. It's all about control,
I knew it when BeeHO started yapping about smart grid technology.
Control the energy supply, control access to health care, control
the flow of information (kill conservative talk radio) which will
lead to control of the citizenry which will turn them into subjects.
Hell people, just give up now!
Another FOX "news" viewer?

The article is from the New York Times. If you mean these comments, he can't
be a Fox viewer because Fox does not counsel 'giving up.' In fact the
network's motto is "Never give up! Never surrender!"


They must be fans of the Tim Allen movie "Galaxy Quest". *snicker*

I stayed up one night and saw their "sign-off." It went something like this
(paraphrasing):

"Just there the barbarians huddle, sheer terror gripping tight their hearts
with icy fingers. Knowing full well the horrors they faced at the hands of
300, they stare now across the plains at TEN THOUSAND Spartans commanding
THIRTY THOUSAND free Greeks! Today we rescue a world from mysticism and
tyranny and usher in future brighter than anything we can imagine!"

Or maybe it was the end of a DVD.

I forget.



You do realize the "give up" remark was in jest?

TDD

The Daring Dufas wrote:
Bob F wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:
HeyBub wrote:
"[WASHINGTON] Millions of households across America are taking a
first step into the world of the "smart grid," as their power
companies install meters that can tell them how much electricity
they are using hour by hour - and sometimes, appliance by
appliance. But not everyone is happy about it."
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/14/us...ef=instapundit


I see a way for the government to control you through taxing your
energy usage based on the time of day. Or, law enforcement seeing
your power usage and deciding that you must be doing something
illegal like growing pot in your basement. It's all about control,
I knew it when BeeHO started yapping about smart grid technology.
Control the energy supply, control access to health care, control
the flow of information (kill conservative talk radio) which will
lead to control of the citizenry which will turn them into subjects.
Hell people, just give up now!

Another FOX "news" viewer?


I listen to all of the news outlets when I get a chance, no favorite.


I applaud your quest for ecumenism, but the following are NOT news outlets:

CNN
ABC
CBS
NBC
MSNBC
CNBC
The History Channel
Home Shopping Network
or
Turner Classic Movies
---
Headline News is pretty newsy as is The Weather Channel. And, of course, Fox
News.

Caesar Romano wrote:
On Tue, 15 Dec 2009 14:38:46 -0600, "HeyBub"
wrote Re On "Smart" power meters:

Caesar Romano wrote:
On Tue, 15 Dec 2009 13:17:54 -0500, EXT wrote:
Not so much "control", just a blatant method of raising the prices
while saying it is your fault it costs so much. Get used to doing
your laundry and cooking after midnight, that is when the rates
you have now will kick in, while the daytime and evening rates
will skyrocket. We have these meters here but the local utility
hasn't started billing according to time of day.

It's a form of rationing that the rich aren't subject to because
it's chump change to them.

I would rather see ration coupons wherein people could sell their
unneed coupons on the open market.

It's called "Cap-and-Trade." You're not alone in wanting it. It's
the goal of the Luddites.


Sorry, I didn't explain myself well. What I would really like to see
is about 150 new nuclear power plants built in the U.S. But that's not
going to happen, so we are going to see some kind of rationing soon.
Given that, I would rather see coupon-rationing rather than price
rationing since price-rationing only applies to the middle class.

If the price of power goes up astronomically, the "middle-class" will DEMAND
nuclear power plants. With your coupon scheme, a whole new regulatory body
will spring up to administer the coupons. There'll have to be exceptions
(like for iron lungs and exigent circumstances, agencies of government,
hospital, charitable, religious, and eleemosynary institutions), there'll be
counterfeiting and black-market enterprises, accounting gimmicks, and so on.

No, rationing by price is the only method that's been proven to work.

HeyBub wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:
Bob F wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:
HeyBub wrote:
"[WASHINGTON] Millions of households across America are taking a
first step into the world of the "smart grid," as their power
companies install meters that can tell them how much electricity
they are using hour by hour - and sometimes, appliance by
appliance. But not everyone is happy about it."
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/14/us...ef=instapundit


I see a way for the government to control you through taxing your
energy usage based on the time of day. Or, law enforcement seeing
your power usage and deciding that you must be doing something
illegal like growing pot in your basement. It's all about control,
I knew it when BeeHO started yapping about smart grid technology.
Control the energy supply, control access to health care, control
the flow of information (kill conservative talk radio) which will
lead to control of the citizenry which will turn them into
subjects. Hell people, just give up now!

Another FOX "news" viewer?


I listen to all of the news outlets when I get a chance, no favorite.


I applaud your quest for ecumenism, but the following are NOT news
outlets:
CNN
ABC
CBS
NBC
MSNBC
CNBC

But they are clearly a lot closer than Fox.

On Dec 15, 4:10*pm, Van Chocstraw
wrote:
On 12/15/2009 11:31 AM, HeyBub wrote:

"[WASHINGTON] Millions of households across America are taking a first step
into the world of the "smart grid," as their power companies install meters
that can tell them how much electricity they are using hour by hour - and
sometimes, appliance by appliance. But not everyone is happy about it."

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/14/us...ef=instapundit

Tune in, turn on, drop out.


Looks like others are starting to catch on to what I posted here
months ago when the FEDS started this Obama plan for the "smart grid"
that was supposed to be so essential and necessary to enable the use
of alternative fuels. I said then that most of the claims were just
vague BS. Like the claim that it will enable you to use solar power
generated from your neighbor's house. Which makes no sense, because
we're already doing that and it doesn't require smart meters.

The biggest advantage is that it will enable time of day pricing which
will encourage people to shift some of their demand to off peak hours
and lower rates. In practice, it will result in about as much
reduction in electricity usage as $3 gasoline has in reduced demand
for gasoline. Let's face it, there isn't a whole lot you can do to
shift demand. I can see gradually moving to smart meters by using
them for new installs, replacing failed ones, etc. But to have a
huge federal subsidy and insisting that it must happen now, adding to
our deficit, is nuts.

However for the companies making the meters, the lobbyist giving
Congress gifts, it's a field day. And the environmentalist kooks
will get to feel good that they are saving the planet, regardless of
whether it amounts to anything other than billions wasted. As for
me, I'm with the guy that said what we should be doing is building
nuclear power plants. I was recently in China. While we're here
screwing our economy, they are busy industrializing at a frightening
pace. I came away with the 2 key thoughts:

1 - The cold war is over, we won and they are rapidly on the path
toward freedom and capitalism.

2 - Kruschev might still be right. The ex-commies may still bury us,
but it will be by them becoming free market capitalists while we go
the other way.

On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 03:09:08 -0800 (PST), wrote
Re On "Smart" power meters:

However for the companies making the meters, the lobbyist giving
Congress gifts, it's a field day. And the environmentalist kooks
will get to feel good that they are saving the planet, regardless of
whether it amounts to anything other than billions wasted. As for
me, I'm with the guy that said what we should be doing is building
nuclear power plants. I was recently in China. While we're here
screwing our economy, they are busy industrializing at a frightening
pace. I came away with the 2 key thoughts:

1 - The cold war is over, we won and they are rapidly on the path
toward freedom and capitalism.

....and prosperty, while we race to the bottom.
--
Work is the curse of the drinking class.

On Tue, 15 Dec 2009 13:17:54 -0500, "EXT"
wrote:

Not so much "control", just a blatant method of raising the prices while
saying it is your fault it costs so much. Get used to doing your laundry and
cooking after midnight, that is when the rates you have now will kick in,
while the daytime and evening rates will skyrocket. We have these meters
here but the local utility hasn't started billing according to time of day.

Oh, well, I guess they "think" they have a solution to that problem:
Not only the power grid is supposed to "go smart", but also the
appliances connected to it. So, prepare your washing machine,
dishwasher or whatever, and have it start up automatically,
grid-controlled, when rates are the low - probably even automatically
when rates have fallen below a threshold you have set yourself.

In practice - well, I wouldn't really want my washing machine to
automatically go off at 3 am when I'm trying to sleep a few rooms down
the hallway, just because electricity may be cheapest at 3 am...

Greetings,
Nils

Both parties fail to satisfy the American people. The Reps
are doing things like Patriot Act, and the Dems are speeding
us towards socialism. I wonder if any third party has a
chance. Might, sometime soon. I don't feel like a vote for
Reps or Dems does any good. Of course, with electronic
voting, my vote may be totally irrelevant anyway.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"The Daring Dufas" wrote
in message ...


I listen to all of the news outlets when I get a chance, no
favorite.

Sorry, I'm not a Republican, Republicans disgust me but
Democrats are
special, they horrify me.

TDD

Nils Holland wrote:
On Tue, 15 Dec 2009 13:17:54 -0500, "EXT"
wrote:

Not so much "control", just a blatant method of raising the prices while
saying it is your fault it costs so much. Get used to doing your laundry and
cooking after midnight, that is when the rates you have now will kick in,
while the daytime and evening rates will skyrocket. We have these meters
here but the local utility hasn't started billing according to time of day.

Oh, well, I guess they "think" they have a solution to that problem:
Not only the power grid is supposed to "go smart", but also the
appliances connected to it. So, prepare your washing machine,
dishwasher or whatever, and have it start up automatically,
grid-controlled, when rates are the low - probably even automatically
when rates have fallen below a threshold you have set yourself.

In practice - well, I wouldn't really want my washing machine to
automatically go off at 3 am when I'm trying to sleep a few rooms down
the hallway, just because electricity may be cheapest at 3 am...

Greetings,
Nils

I think it's better to have the power usage spread out. Imagine what
would happen if all the laundry equipment in a community kicked on at
3:00am. Guys I know who work for the city water department tell me
that when something like The Super Bowl or big college game is being
broadcast, they can tell when the commercials come on because there
will be a drop in water pressure.

TDD

Stormin Mormon wrote:
Both parties fail to satisfy the American people. The Reps
are doing things like Patriot Act, and the Dems are speeding
us towards socialism. I wonder if any third party has a
chance. Might, sometime soon. I don't feel like a vote for
Reps or Dems does any good. Of course, with electronic
voting, my vote may be totally irrelevant anyway.


The problem with The Patriot Act in regards to Democrats is
like Islamic Jihadists having nuclear weapons. The Commies
will use The Patriot Act to go after political opponents
much like both parties have misused The IRS to attack people
they dislike. When The Patriot Act passed, I thought to myself,
what on earth are Republicans thinking, they know that Democrats
will wind up back in power sometime and they know damn well how
such powers could be misused. No matter how much Commiecrats
whine, moan and pitch tantrums about laws that take away freedom
and liberty, they will gleefully abuse such powers when it suits
them. Republicans can't stay out of your bedroom and Democrats
can't stay out of your wallet.

TDD

On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 08:44:21 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

I think it's better to have the power usage spread out. Imagine what
would happen if all the laundry equipment in a community kicked on at
3:00am. Guys I know who work for the city water department tell me
that when something like The Super Bowl or big college game is being
broadcast, they can tell when the commercials come on because there
will be a drop in water pressure.

Hey, good idea, then they'll turn on all the washing machines one
after another or in small groups. So when your washing machine kicks
in at, say, 3:15 am, you can give your neighbor Jimmy a call that his
washing machine is probably due by 4:15 or something. ;-)

Personally, I find this interesting: I remember not too many years ago
when you had to pay by the minute for your Internet usage or phone
calls. Then flatrates became common (earlier over there in the US than
here in Germany and probably Europe in general), and all of a sudden
you could be on the net or call people as much / long as you wanted.
With electricity, "they" seem to want to take the opposite route.
While we certainly don't have "flatrate electricity" today, we do have
- for the most part - fixed (throughout the day, with some exeptions)
rates. I remember times when using the phone for long distance calls
was postponed till after 6 or 9 pm because rates got cheaper then -
that's what might happen with electricity now. Interestingly, in the
telecommunication business, the move to flatrates was sold to us as
"the great revolution", while in the electricity field, they're trying
to sell us the smart grid stuff with its possibilities for varying
rates based on time and load, as "the great revolution". Strange
world. ;-)

Greetings,
Nils

On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 14:05:05 +0100, Nils Holland wrote:
Oh, well, I guess they "think" they have a solution to that problem:
Not only the power grid is supposed to "go smart", but also the
appliances connected to it. So, prepare your washing machine,
dishwasher or whatever, and have it start up automatically,
grid-controlled, when rates are the low - probably even automatically
when rates have fallen below a threshold you have set yourself.

I remember my parents used to have their old "electro-mechanical" washer
on a timer so it'd come on at night when the rates were lower. Then they
replaced it a few years ago with an expensive new all-electronic one -
which would just sit there dumbly when the power came on...

In practice - well, I wouldn't really want my washing machine to
automatically go off at 3 am when I'm trying to sleep a few rooms down
the hallway, just because electricity may be cheapest at 3 am...

That is the downside, yes (my parents' one was in a utility room right at
the opposite corner of the house from where they slept)

cheers

Jules

Nils Holland wrote:
On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 08:44:21 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

I think it's better to have the power usage spread out. Imagine what
would happen if all the laundry equipment in a community kicked on at
3:00am. Guys I know who work for the city water department tell me
that when something like The Super Bowl or big college game is being
broadcast, they can tell when the commercials come on because there
will be a drop in water pressure.

Hey, good idea, then they'll turn on all the washing machines one
after another or in small groups. So when your washing machine kicks
in at, say, 3:15 am, you can give your neighbor Jimmy a call that his
washing machine is probably due by 4:15 or something. ;-)

Personally, I find this interesting: I remember not too many years ago
when you had to pay by the minute for your Internet usage or phone
calls. Then flatrates became common (earlier over there in the US than
here in Germany and probably Europe in general), and all of a sudden
you could be on the net or call people as much / long as you wanted.
With electricity, "they" seem to want to take the opposite route.
While we certainly don't have "flatrate electricity" today, we do have
- for the most part - fixed (throughout the day, with some exeptions)
rates. I remember times when using the phone for long distance calls
was postponed till after 6 or 9 pm because rates got cheaper then -
that's what might happen with electricity now. Interestingly, in the
telecommunication business, the move to flatrates was sold to us as
"the great revolution", while in the electricity field, they're trying
to sell us the smart grid stuff with its possibilities for varying
rates based on time and load, as "the great revolution". Strange
world. ;-)

The special rates for peak and off peak times is nothing new in the US.
It's been available everywhere I have been for 30 or more years. An
old boss of mine had a heating system based on off peak rates. In his
basement were two... I'll guess about 12' round by 5' tall tanks that
held either water or some type of anti freeze with a heat exchanger.
During off peak times the electric heated these giant tanks and the
house. During peak times the house was heated from the heat stored in
the tanks. It was great during the fall and spring, but nowhere good
enough for mid winter. They would run out of heat and then had to heat
the house on the special peak rate electric. I think he had it
disconnected and changed the electric service to a flat rate plan.

Jules wrote:
On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 14:05:05 +0100, Nils Holland wrote:
Oh, well, I guess they "think" they have a solution to that problem:
Not only the power grid is supposed to "go smart", but also the
appliances connected to it. So, prepare your washing machine,
dishwasher or whatever, and have it start up automatically,
grid-controlled, when rates are the low - probably even automatically
when rates have fallen below a threshold you have set yourself.

I remember my parents used to have their old "electro-mechanical" washer
on a timer so it'd come on at night when the rates were lower. Then they
replaced it a few years ago with an expensive new all-electronic one -
which would just sit there dumbly when the power came on...

I ran into that with a window A/C unit. During the summer I now leave
the window unit on high, but put a timer in series with the temperature
sensor.

Maybe you can put a timer in series with the washer lid safety switch?

On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 13:17:22 -0500, Tony
wrote:

The special rates for peak and off peak times is nothing new in the US.
It's been available everywhere I have been for 30 or more years. An
old boss of mine had a heating system based on off peak rates. In his
basement were two... I'll guess about 12' round by 5' tall tanks that
held either water or some type of anti freeze with a heat exchanger.
During off peak times the electric heated these giant tanks and the
house. During peak times the house was heated from the heat stored in
the tanks. It was great during the fall and spring, but nowhere good
enough for mid winter. They would run out of heat and then had to heat
the house on the special peak rate electric. I think he had it
disconnected and changed the electric service to a flat rate plan.

Right, special off-peak rates have been available here in Germany for
ages too. I used such a plan in my previous flat as well, where a
storage heater (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Storage_heater) was
"charged" with heat during the night, which it was supposed to pass on
to the air in the room during the day. Such storage heaters are
switched on, via the power grid, remotely by the utility company.
Generally, they guarantee that they willdeliver a certain number of
off-peak power hours per night, but don't tell exactly when the
off-peak power kicks in, so they have more freedom with their load
situation. I remember that slight "click" sound at different times,
when the storage heater was remotely turned on.

Nothing bad about that actually, as it allowed for the utility
companies to get rid of their excess capacities at night, and for the
owner of a storage heater to get (relatively) cheap electronic heat.
What would be possible under the umbrella term of "smart grid" goes so
much further than this, however, that I'm not sure if I'd really like
to see things go that extra mile. What we could see now are really
constantly changing, unpredictable prices - just like gas prices. Not
completely impossible (though requiring more new technology than just
a smart meter) would even be scenarios where more money gets charged
for certain kinds of devices. Probably I'm just being a bit
pessimistic here, but if it can be done (and if someone can make more
money with it), it probably will be done.

Let me add that Germany originally decided to shut down all of its
nuclear power plants by 2021 - without having a definitive answer
where our electricity is supposed to come from then. Our new
government (in office since the end of October) revised this decision
a little bit and plans to keep at least some of the nuclear power
plants in service for longer, but there are still no plans to build
new ones, even though they would actually be safer and more efficient.
Well, well...

Greetings,
Nils

Nils Holland wrote:
On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 13:17:22 -0500, Tony
wrote:

The special rates for peak and off peak times is nothing new in the US.
It's been available everywhere I have been for 30 or more years. An
old boss of mine had a heating system based on off peak rates. In his
basement were two... I'll guess about 12' round by 5' tall tanks that
held either water or some type of anti freeze with a heat exchanger.
During off peak times the electric heated these giant tanks and the
house. During peak times the house was heated from the heat stored in
the tanks. It was great during the fall and spring, but nowhere good
enough for mid winter. They would run out of heat and then had to heat
the house on the special peak rate electric. I think he had it
disconnected and changed the electric service to a flat rate plan.

Right, special off-peak rates have been available here in Germany for
ages too. I used such a plan in my previous flat as well, where a
storage heater (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Storage_heater) was
"charged" with heat during the night, which it was supposed to pass on
to the air in the room during the day. Such storage heaters are
switched on, via the power grid, remotely by the utility company.
Generally, they guarantee that they willdeliver a certain number of
off-peak power hours per night, but don't tell exactly when the
off-peak power kicks in, so they have more freedom with their load
situation. I remember that slight "click" sound at different times,
when the storage heater was remotely turned on.

Nothing bad about that actually, as it allowed for the utility
companies to get rid of their excess capacities at night, and for the
owner of a storage heater to get (relatively) cheap electronic heat.
What would be possible under the umbrella term of "smart grid" goes so
much further than this, however, that I'm not sure if I'd really like
to see things go that extra mile. What we could see now are really
constantly changing, unpredictable prices - just like gas prices. Not
completely impossible (though requiring more new technology than just
a smart meter) would even be scenarios where more money gets charged
for certain kinds of devices. Probably I'm just being a bit
pessimistic here, but if it can be done (and if someone can make more
money with it), it probably will be done.

Let me add that Germany originally decided to shut down all of its
nuclear power plants by 2021 - without having a definitive answer
where our electricity is supposed to come from then. Our new
government (in office since the end of October) revised this decision
a little bit and plans to keep at least some of the nuclear power
plants in service for longer, but there are still no plans to build
new ones, even though they would actually be safer and more efficient.
Well, well...

Greetings,
Nils

You can always buy nuclear power from France.

TDD

Nils Holland wrote:

On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 13:17:22 -0500, Tony
wrote:

The special rates for peak and off peak times is nothing new in the US.
It's been available everywhere I have been for 30 or more years. An
old boss of mine had a heating system based on off peak rates. In his
basement were two... I'll guess about 12' round by 5' tall tanks that
held either water or some type of anti freeze with a heat exchanger.
During off peak times the electric heated these giant tanks and the
house. During peak times the house was heated from the heat stored in
the tanks. It was great during the fall and spring, but nowhere good
enough for mid winter. They would run out of heat and then had to heat
the house on the special peak rate electric. I think he had it
disconnected and changed the electric service to a flat rate plan.

Right, special off-peak rates have been available here in Germany for
ages too. I used such a plan in my previous flat as well, where a
storage heater (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Storage_heater) was
"charged" with heat during the night, which it was supposed to pass on
to the air in the room during the day. Such storage heaters are
switched on, via the power grid, remotely by the utility company.
Generally, they guarantee that they willdeliver a certain number of
off-peak power hours per night, but don't tell exactly when the
off-peak power kicks in, so they have more freedom with their load
situation. I remember that slight "click" sound at different times,
when the storage heater was remotely turned on.

Nothing bad about that actually, as it allowed for the utility
companies to get rid of their excess capacities at night, and for the
owner of a storage heater to get (relatively) cheap electronic heat.
What would be possible under the umbrella term of "smart grid" goes so
much further than this, however, that I'm not sure if I'd really like
to see things go that extra mile. What we could see now are really
constantly changing, unpredictable prices - just like gas prices. Not
completely impossible (though requiring more new technology than just
a smart meter) would even be scenarios where more money gets charged
for certain kinds of devices. Probably I'm just being a bit
pessimistic here, but if it can be done (and if someone can make more
money with it), it probably will be done.

Let me add that Germany originally decided to shut down all of its
nuclear power plants by 2021 - without having a definitive answer
where our electricity is supposed to come from then. Our new
government (in office since the end of October) revised this decision
a little bit and plans to keep at least some of the nuclear power
plants in service for longer, but there are still no plans to build
new ones, even though they would actually be safer and more efficient.
Well, well...

Greetings,
Nils

All of this leads back to the fact that we do not have any good storage
technology for electricity. If we had good batteries, electric vehicles
would be practical, not just a toy for people who have money to waste
and little distance to travel, and we would have the ability to have
home power systems that could charge at an even rate and provide for our
peak power use locally giving a steady load to the grid.

Stormin Mormon wrote:
Both parties fail to satisfy the American people. The Reps
are doing things like Patriot Act, and the Dems are speeding
us towards socialism. I wonder if any third party has a
chance. Might, sometime soon. I don't feel like a vote for
Reps or Dems does any good. Of course, with electronic
voting, my vote may be totally irrelevant anyway.

The last 3rd party candidate that had a ghost of a chance was Teddy
Roosevelt running on the Bull Moose party in 1912. Roosevelt got 27% of the
vote, putting the Republican, Taft, in 3rd place (23%). Woodrow Wilson won
with 42% of the vote. Had Roosevelt stayed out of the race, the Republican
candidate - Taft - would probably have defeated Wilson.*

If you're dissatisfied with the positions of the two major parties, then
work from WITHIN the party of your choice to change things. Withholding your
vote from the party closest to your position actually makes things worse.

Suppose a number of people feel the Republican party is not conservative
enough and vote for, say, the Libertarian (or simply don't vote at all). The
Democratic candidate stands a better chance of winning and a number, like
Wilson above, will actually win. It's clear to all but these disaffected
voters that a Democrat in office is far worse than a less-than-perfect
Republican.

And, no, withholding your vote won't teach the party a lesson. The "purists"
have been drained off, strengthing the internal power of those to whom the
"purists" object.

Now my first choice for president didn't win last time. But, since I wasn't
on the ballot, I sort of expected that. So what I did was vote for the major
party candidate CLOSEST to me in platform, promises, and policy: Howard
Taft.

----------
* Woodrow Wilson did keep us out of war and help found the forerunner of the
United Nations. Had Taft won, we wouldn't have had such foolishness.
Especially with Roosevelt as Secretary of War.

The Daring Dufas wrote:

I think it's better to have the power usage spread out. Imagine what
would happen if all the laundry equipment in a community kicked on at
3:00am. Guys I know who work for the city water department tell me
that when something like The Super Bowl or big college game is being
broadcast, they can tell when the commercials come on because there
will be a drop in water pressure.


You must live in a strange place.

I'm in Houston and all municipal water is gravity fed - that is, the
pressure is determined by the height of the water towers. There is no way
for any central location to know directly what the water pressure is
anywhere in the city.

HeyBub wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:
I think it's better to have the power usage spread out. Imagine what
would happen if all the laundry equipment in a community kicked on at
3:00am. Guys I know who work for the city water department tell me
that when something like The Super Bowl or big college game is being
broadcast, they can tell when the commercials come on because there
will be a drop in water pressure.


You must live in a strange place.

I'm in Houston and all municipal water is gravity fed - that is, the
pressure is determined by the height of the water towers. There is no way
for any central location to know directly what the water pressure is
anywhere in the city.



Birmingham is a very strange place sometimes. Da mayor, La La Larry
just got hisself sent away to da federal big house. It's can so
entertaining 'round here.

TDD

On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 13:26:06 -0500, Tony wrote:

Jules wrote:
On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 14:05:05 +0100, Nils Holland wrote:
Oh, well, I guess they "think" they have a solution to that problem:
Not only the power grid is supposed to "go smart", but also the
appliances connected to it. So, prepare your washing machine,
dishwasher or whatever, and have it start up automatically,
grid-controlled, when rates are the low - probably even automatically
when rates have fallen below a threshold you have set yourself.

I remember my parents used to have their old "electro-mechanical" washer
on a timer so it'd come on at night when the rates were lower. Then they
replaced it a few years ago with an expensive new all-electronic one -
which would just sit there dumbly when the power came on...

I ran into that with a window A/C unit. During the summer I now leave
the window unit on high, but put a timer in series with the temperature
sensor.

Maybe you can put a timer in series with the washer lid safety switch?

Ahh, theirs was a front-loader (otherwise that would be a very neat idea!)

There's probably still all sorts of safety switches in there that could
be tapped into, but it wouldn't surprise me for a front-loader if the
controller's not designed to flag an error condition and just halt if the
system detects a door open condition when the machine's "running" (after
all at that point it probably thinks the room's flooded :-)

cheers

Jules

HeyBub wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:
I think it's better to have the power usage spread out. Imagine what
would happen if all the laundry equipment in a community kicked on at
3:00am. Guys I know who work for the city water department tell me
that when something like The Super Bowl or big college game is being
broadcast, they can tell when the commercials come on because there
will be a drop in water pressure.


You must live in a strange place.

I'm in Houston and all municipal water is gravity fed - that is, the
pressure is determined by the height of the water towers. There is no way
for any central location to know directly what the water pressure is
anywhere in the city.

I would think that if they know the pressure at one place, depending on
the elevation they should know what it is everywhere. The exception
being if there is a large demand in one area and not elsewhere, then
they would have a drop in pressure due to restrictions in the pipes.

The Daring Dufas wrote:

Birmingham is a very strange place sometimes. Da mayor, La La Larry
just got hisself sent away to da federal big house. It's can so
entertaining 'round here.


Okay, smartypants, top this: Houston just elected a lesbian as mayor.

Instead of condoms being passed out in schools, they're gonna start giving
away dental dams.

Tony wrote:

I'm in Houston and all municipal water is gravity fed - that is, the
pressure is determined by the height of the water towers. There is
no way for any central location to know directly what the water
pressure is anywhere in the city.

I would think that if they know the pressure at one place, depending
on the elevation they should know what it is everywhere. The
exception being if there is a large demand in one area and not
elsewhere, then they would have a drop in pressure due to
restrictions in the pipes.

That could happen. Last year, my power went out. After fussing a bit, I
stepped outside. There were FORTY TWO pieces of FIRE EQUIPMENT* in front of
my house dealing with an apartment house fire across the street. My
neighbor, who was trying to get home, circled the neighborhood looking for a
way in. She said that every time she got within about three blocks of the
fire, she spotted a pumper hooked up to a fire plug - we guessed wainting
for a call for more water.

Anyway, with all that commotion I didn't notice a drop in water pressure. I
do have, however, a humongous water tower about two blocks from me (and the
apartment house), so I guess if the fire was at the end of the service run,
there might be a drop-off.

-------
* These 42 pieces of equipment (I counted them) included your ordinary
pumpers, a nozzle truck that could reach up to the 47th floor (the apartment
house was two stories), a visit-god ladder truck that could reach even
higher, supervisor cars, a cascade unit, special operations vans, and a
bus-looking vehicle resembling the one that takes seniors to the neighboring
Indian Casino for a day of gambling labeled "City of Houston Mobile Command
Center." I didn't bother counting the cop cars or ambulances.

HeyBub wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:
Birmingham is a very strange place sometimes. Da mayor, La La Larry
just got hisself sent away to da federal big house. It's can so
entertaining 'round here.


Okay, smartypants, top this: Houston just elected a lesbian as mayor.

Instead of condoms being passed out in schools, they're gonna start giving
away dental dams.



Well, I've heard that every thing is bigger in Texas. *snicker*

TDD

On Dec 15, 10:31*am, "HeyBub" wrote:
"[WASHINGTON] Millions of households across America are taking a first step
into the world of the "smart grid," as their power companies install meters
that can tell them how much electricity they are using hour by hour - and
sometimes, appliance by appliance. But not everyone is happy about it."

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/14/us...ef=instapundit

Why should I be happy about it since I have already had to start
paying an extra fee every damn month for that stupid meter that hasn't
been installed yet and won't be for upto three years. I have to pay
in advance for the meter, pay after the meter is finally installed for
several more years and the only benefit that I can see will be to the
power company who will be laying off employees that aren't needed to
read the meters.