In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
Before that AFAIK there was only one supplier of volts which was your
local electricity board. Which was nationalised and had no incentive to
cut costs.

As opposed to privatized, where the incentive is to make the maximum
profit.

--
*I don't have a solution, but I admire your problem. *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

alan_m wrote:

Brian Gaff wrote:

I'm on a Blue fixed until June and I expect to get an offer
sometime in May.

Most companies do not contact you to offer a new deal or even to say
that your old deal is coming to an end.

I think ofgem requires them to contact you at the end of a contract ...

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/publications-and-updates/decision-default-tariffs-domestic-customers-end-fixed-term-contracts

On Thu, 25 Mar 2021 22:34:13 +0000, Max Demian
wrote:

On 25/03/2021 18:44, Scott wrote:
On Thu, 25 Mar 2021 18:06:31 +0000, Jeff Layman
wrote:
On 25/03/2021 16:57, Michael Chare wrote:

These days nearly all suppliers want paid monthly by direct debit. One
difference is how often they change the amount that they want to take.
It is poaaible to ring your bank and ask them to reclaim a direct debit.
I did once do this. The bank were a little reluntant but they did do as
asked.

Why a monthly direct debit? Mine produces a bill every three months
and collects the sum due by direct debit.

Who does that? Did they offer that method or did you have to find out
for yourself? EDF and British Gas don't seem to offer that.

This is getting interesting. I am now with British Gas after an
enforced switch from Ebico / Robin Hood Energy when the latter went
into administration. I was told existing terms would continue. The
account is described as a monthly direct debit but the bill (which I
cannot find on the website) seems to cover three months. There are
various adjustments (miscellaneous documents) so the position is
difficult to track. They also seem to have put me on a fixed price
tariff. I would have liked to check if that is what I was on before
but the Ebico website has been taken down.

It happens that Dave Plowman (News) formulated :
As opposed to privatized, where the incentive is to make the maximum
profit.

But against considerable competition vying for our custom, so the net
result is much cheaper for us. I think that is important.

On Fri, 26 Mar 2021 11:19:06 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Scott wrote:
Why a monthly direct debit? Mine produces a bill every three months
and collects the sum due by direct debit.

They are effectively giving you credit for more time than monthly. Which
is going to cost you more. I don't think any of the best deals do
quarterly.

I think the counter-argument is that you are paying the correct amount
instead of allowing the supplier to pick a higher amount then refund
you - or not - at the end of the year.

On 26/03/2021 10:23, alan_m wrote:
On 26/03/2021 09:17, Jeff Layman wrote:

the water company
makes no charge. Why are the energy companies different?

They do make a charge but don't show it as a separate amount. Being a
monopoly supplier in an area means that they can also charge as much as
they like for providing the bill. Billing and payment doesn't come for free.

Not here. You are sent a water bill, and are shown the various ways to
pay it. There is no reduction for paying by DD.

--

Jeff

On 26/03/2021 09:24, Peter Able wrote:
On 25/03/2021 22:38, alan_m wrote:
On 25/03/2021 21:44, newshound wrote:
On 25/03/2021 18:45, Peter Able wrote:
On 25/03/2021 16:20, Jeff Layman wrote:
I assumed it would not be simple

So you were proved correct.Â* d-i-y, for sure.

Move on - and the less restrictions you apply, the better the deal
you'll find on any of the numerous energy-switching sites.

PA

Time I switched again too. I've always used the Which? service because
I (more or less) trust them and think they are a useful campaigning
organisation, but does anyone have other thoughts?

Surely Which? recommends Octopus (according to the adverts) - much more
expensive when I checked their tariffs this year.




https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/co...ricity-prices/

Seems to be pretty comprehensive.

Indeed. I'd not looked at that site before. Thanks for the notice.

And, OP, there is an option called "pay on receipt of bill" - if you
insist on not using Direct Debit. Seems to cost about £200 extra per
annum if you do so. Your choice.

A decision to make.

--

Jeff

In article ,
Harry Bloomfield wrote:
I know you can, but would you expect to always go to the farm for your
milk, for your fruit and your veg? Would you go to the refinery for
your petrol and diesel? To the weaver for your clothes? To the printer
for your books? To the manufacturer for you car. There have always been
middlemen and always will be, because there is a very obvious need to
separate production from distribution and retailing.

But not with water, for some reason.

--
*WHY ARE HEMORRHOIDS CALLED "HEMORRHOIDS" INSTEAD OF "ASTEROIDS"?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Harry Bloomfield wrote:
It happens that Dave Plowman (News) formulated :
As opposed to privatized, where the incentive is to make the maximum
profit.

But against considerable competition vying for our custom, so the net
result is much cheaper for us. I think that is important.

So we have lots of companies with lots of duplicated overheads selling
exactly the same product. And all making a profit. Which makes absolutely
no sense at all.

--
*The longest recorded flightof a chicken is thirteen seconds *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Scott wrote:
On Fri, 26 Mar 2021 11:19:06 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Scott wrote:
Why a monthly direct debit? Mine produces a bill every three months
and collects the sum due by direct debit.

They are effectively giving you credit for more time than monthly. Which
is going to cost you more. I don't think any of the best deals do
quarterly.

I think the counter-argument is that you are paying the correct amount
instead of allowing the supplier to pick a higher amount then refund
you - or not - at the end of the year.

My monthly DD is based on my use the previous month. Meters are read
monthly. And I can check on my account whether there is any long term
discrepancy.

--
*Remember, no-one is listening until you fart.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman wrote:

Harry Bloomfield wrote:

there is a very obvious need to separate production from
distribution and retailing.

But not with water, for some reason.

Not for domestic water supplies, but you can switch for businesses, e.g.

https://aquaswitch.co.uk

On Fri, 26 Mar 2021 14:19:41 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Scott wrote:
On Fri, 26 Mar 2021 11:19:06 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Scott wrote:
Why a monthly direct debit? Mine produces a bill every three months
and collects the sum due by direct debit.

They are effectively giving you credit for more time than monthly. Which
is going to cost you more. I don't think any of the best deals do
quarterly.

I think the counter-argument is that you are paying the correct amount
instead of allowing the supplier to pick a higher amount then refund
you - or not - at the end of the year.

My monthly DD is based on my use the previous month. Meters are read
monthly. And I can check on my account whether there is any long term
discrepancy.

That is just as good - possibly better from the budgeting point of
view. I think the criticism is where suppliers estimate a whole year
and set an average, which is typically higher than the actual usage,
leaving a credit at the year end.

On 26/03/2021 14:17, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Harry Bloomfield wrote:
It happens that Dave Plowman (News) formulated :
As opposed to privatized, where the incentive is to make the maximum
profit.

But against considerable competition vying for our custom, so the net
result is much cheaper for us. I think that is important.

So we have lots of companies with lots of duplicated overheads selling
exactly the same product. And all making a profit. Which makes absolutely
no sense at all.

Strangely overheads tend to scale with the size of the company, with
large companies having disproportionately higher overheads.

Competition will also have effect of reducing those overheads. Hence the
numbers of small companies, rather than one big, efficient one.

So it really isn't that simple.

On 25/03/2021 18:28, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 25/03/2021 16:25, Andy Burns wrote:
Jeff Layman wrote:

I wanted a fixed tariff and to pay quarterly by cash/cheque.

Doubt you'll find one on offer.

https://my.edfenergy.com/gas-electricity/tariff-information-labels/

Enter any valid postcode. Select cash/cheque as payment method, then
click on "Apply filters", Then Cash/cheque Whole Amount (Quarterly).

Quite a few tariffs will appear (eventually - it's a slow website).

They might appear but they are mirages.

The only tariffs with decent prices are dual fuel deals for some fixed
period with billing online only and paid by monthly direct debit. It
helps to know your exact annual usage to get to the optimum deal.

I find it incredibly frustrating that you cannot just download a table
of numbers showing the various fixed charges and rates.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On Fri, 26 Mar 2021 14:26:19 +0000, Scott
wrote:

On Fri, 26 Mar 2021 14:19:41 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Scott wrote:
On Fri, 26 Mar 2021 11:19:06 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Scott wrote:
Why a monthly direct debit? Mine produces a bill every three months
and collects the sum due by direct debit.

They are effectively giving you credit for more time than monthly. Which
is going to cost you more. I don't think any of the best deals do
quarterly.

I think the counter-argument is that you are paying the correct amount
instead of allowing the supplier to pick a higher amount then refund
you - or not - at the end of the year.

My monthly DD is based on my use the previous month. Meters are read
monthly. And I can check on my account whether there is any long term
discrepancy.

That is just as good - possibly better from the budgeting point of
view. I think the criticism is where suppliers estimate a whole year
and set an average, which is typically higher than the actual usage,
leaving a credit at the year end.

PS I have found the paperwork. It's called 'variable direct debit'. I
cannot find any any specific mention of frequency of payment but it
says '1st day of the month' so I assume it is paid monthly.

On 25/03/2021 16:20, Jeff Layman wrote:
I thought I should finally make an effort to change from an EDF standard
variable dual-fuel tariff to a fixed EDF one.

Hmmm. How much is your electricity tariff now ?.

On 25/03/2021 16:25, Andy Burns wrote:
Jeff Layman wrote:

I wanted a fixed tariff and to pay quarterly by cash/cheque.

Doubt you'll find one on offer.

Do any suppliers have quarterly billing combined with quarterly
variable direct debits ?. BT used to offer this but I think they
have removed such a payment option.

On Thu, 25 Mar 2021 22:34:13 +0000, Max Demian
wrote:

On 25/03/2021 18:44, Scott wrote:
On Thu, 25 Mar 2021 18:06:31 +0000, Jeff Layman
wrote:
On 25/03/2021 16:57, Michael Chare wrote:

These days nearly all suppliers want paid monthly by direct debit. One
difference is how often they change the amount that they want to take.
It is poaaible to ring your bank and ask them to reclaim a direct debit.
I did once do this. The bank were a little reluntant but they did do as
asked.

Why a monthly direct debit? Mine produces a bill every three months
and collects the sum due by direct debit.

Who does that? Did they offer that method or did you have to find out
for yourself? EDF and British Gas don't seem to offer that.

*Update* British Gas offers variable direct debit. I think it's
monthly payments but at least it's based on usage. I would never
allow the supplier to invent the amount.

On 26/03/2021 14:41, Martin Brown wrote:
On 25/03/2021 18:28, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 25/03/2021 16:25, Andy Burns wrote:
Jeff Layman wrote:

I wanted a fixed tariff and to pay quarterly by cash/cheque.

Doubt you'll find one on offer.

https://my.edfenergy.com/gas-electricity/tariff-information-labels/

Enter any valid postcode. Select cash/cheque as payment method, then
click on "Apply filters", Then Cash/cheque Whole Amount (Quarterly).

Quite a few tariffs will appear (eventually - it's a slow website).

They might appear but they are mirages.

I'm waiting for EDF to get back to me and email the relevant
information. Hmm - do I see hell freezing over?...

The only tariffs with decent prices are dual fuel deals for some fixed
period with billing online only and paid by monthly direct debit. It
helps to know your exact annual usage to get to the optimum deal.

I know my exact usage, and have fed both annual kWh figures into the
calculators at EDF and comparison websites.

I find it incredibly frustrating that you cannot just download a table
of numbers showing the various fixed charges and rates.

The whole system is designed to be as opaque and impenetrable as
possible. Why else do we need all those switch sites to do what should
be a fairly simple calculation? I didn't actually check the total number
(including those no longer available), but when I looked at the EDF
tariff list, it seemed there were approaching 100 different tariffs
there. I have no doubt the other big players have a similar number.

One other thing which really annoys me is that nearly all websites
require your actual address as well as your postcode. Why? How many
places are there where the houses on either side will be on completely
different tariff offers? Some comparison sites don't need the full
address. If they don't, why do the others insist on it? It's just to get
you on yet another database somewhere.

--

Jeff

On 25/03/2021 22:29, Max Demian wrote:
On 25/03/2021 18:41, Scott wrote:
On Thu, 25 Mar 2021 18:28:57 +0000, Jeff Layman
wrote:

On 25/03/2021 16:25, Andy Burns wrote:
Jeff Layman wrote:

I wanted a fixed tariff and to pay quarterly by cash/cheque.

Doubt you'll find one on offer.

https://my.edfenergy.com/gas-electricity/tariff-information-labels/

Enter any valid postcode. Select cash/cheque as payment method, then
click on "Apply filters", Then Cash/cheque Whole Amount (Quarterly).

Quite a few tariffs will appear (eventually - it's a slow website).

Why would anyone want to use cash or cheque?Â* If you have a bank
account - as you obviously do - paying by direct debit is more
convenient, may give you a better tariff and is protected by the
direct debit guarantee if anything goes wrong..

The "direct debit guarantee" doesn't guarantee that they won't
overcharge you and use the surplus to maintain their cash flow. I prefer
quarterly in arrears, so I'm only paying for what I use. Of course, I
don't actually pay by cash or cheque, I pay by bank transfer online.
They don't give you the option of paying the quarterly charge by direct
debit (after telling you how much). (Credit card companies and BT manage
to do that.)


+1, though I think BT have stopped offering quarterly variable DD's.

On 26/03/2021 15:17, Andrew wrote:
On 25/03/2021 16:20, Jeff Layman wrote:
I thought I should finally make an effort to change from an EDF standard
variable dual-fuel tariff to a fixed EDF one.

Hmmm. How much is your electricity tariff now ?.

17.81p/kWh. S/C is 27.5p/d. Will rise to 19.84 and 28.64 on 1 April,
which is why I'm looking at a fixed tariff now.

--

Jeff

On 25/03/2021 18:56, Tim Streater wrote:


Don't be silly. If these middlemen didn't do it, then the actual power
companies would have to do it. As it is, they just sell a few large chunks of
power to the middlemen, who set up tarriffs which they offer to us. The
middlemen also insulate us from risk due to changes in the price *they* have
to pay to get power. It's a form of forward buying, similar to forward selling
by coffee growers or other such producers, but I imagine you don't approve of
that either.


There used to be a company called Enron who did that, and more recently
Greensill.

On 26/03/2021 15:17, Scott wrote:
On Fri, 26 Mar 2021 14:26:19 +0000, Scott
wrote:

On Fri, 26 Mar 2021 14:19:41 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Scott wrote:
On Fri, 26 Mar 2021 11:19:06 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Scott wrote:
Why a monthly direct debit? Mine produces a bill every three months
and collects the sum due by direct debit.

They are effectively giving you credit for more time than monthly. Which
is going to cost you more. I don't think any of the best deals do
quarterly.

I think the counter-argument is that you are paying the correct amount
instead of allowing the supplier to pick a higher amount then refund
you - or not - at the end of the year.

My monthly DD is based on my use the previous month. Meters are read
monthly. And I can check on my account whether there is any long term
discrepancy.

That is just as good - possibly better from the budgeting point of
view. I think the criticism is where suppliers estimate a whole year
and set an average, which is typically higher than the actual usage,
leaving a credit at the year end.

PS I have found the paperwork. It's called 'variable direct debit'. I
cannot find any any specific mention of frequency of payment but it
says '1st day of the month' so I assume it is paid monthly.
EDF tells me that "Pay As You Go" is a new way to pay if you have a
smart meter. I assume that means monthly or quarterly direct debit based
on actual usage. But it's not easy to find that method on their website
or comparison ones.

But there was a strange comment on what seemed to be a similar type of
tariff. They set up a standard amount DD to be paid quarterly, but asked
for the actual meter reading when the bill was due. They added that a
meter reading should not be sent to them unless it was asked for. Why am
I cynical enough to believe that they /might/ forget to ask for one in
summer when the DD would be much higher than the actual amount used, but
be quick off the mark in winter when the actual amount would be higher
than the DD?

--

Jeff

On 26 Mar 2021 at 12:42:41 GMT, "Harry Bloomfield, Esq."
wrote:

It happens that Dave Plowman (News) formulated :
As opposed to privatized, where the incentive is to make the maximum
profit.

But against considerable competition vying for our custom, so the net
result is much cheaper for us. I think that is important.

I'm not convinced - it's ripe for cartels.

That said, my supplier (Yorkshire Energy) has just gone bust, which was of no
surprise to me as the prices were about 25% less than the nearest competitor.
I had relatively cheap fuel for a year, and I'm sure those managing it all did
OK too.

--
Cheers, Rob

On 25/03/2021 23:43, Theo wrote:
Tim Streater wrote:
On 25 Mar 2021 at 20:43:43 GMT, Chris Green wrote:

Tim Streater wrote:

I quite agree that paying efficiently by DD makes sense but that isn't
a reason for the extra 'layer' of paper pushers (or DD pushers)
between me and the actual producers of electricity.

Don't be silly. If these middlemen didn't do it, then the actual power
companies would have to do it. As it is, they just sell a few large chunks of
power to the middlemen, who set up tarriffs which they offer to us. The
middlemen also insulate us from risk due to changes in the price *they* have
to pay to get power. It's a form of forward buying, similar to forward selling
by coffee growers or other such producers, but I imagine you don't approve of
that either.

Just like banks are simply middlemen between you and the money markets.
You're free to cut out the middlemen and go directly to the markets, but you
might find they can't be bothered with your puny transactions.

So how did it work before it was all done this way? It's not been
like this for all that long has it?

Before that AFAIK there was only one supplier of volts which was your local
electricity board. Which was nationalised and had no incentive to cut costs.

and was connected to a nationalised power station with coal delivered by
nationalised trains from nationalised coal mines. No middlemen there.

... and anyway, why can't the suppliers do what the 'middlemen' do and
cut out their profit margin?

Well some, like EDF, do.

Some own their own generation plant (like EDF's nukes), and some don't.
It generally doesn't work to own many smaller generators, like all that
rooftop solar.

Theo


Err, are you confusing EDF the state-owned operator of some of Britains
Nukes, and EDF *Energy* which was sold (by EDF) in 2012 to a Hong Kong
based zillionaire (but still uses the EDF moniker for the retail
operations) ?. This company is actually called UK Power networks or
something similar. It is nothing to do with the French government. quite
why they are allowed to trade as 'EDF' is a mystery.

Before EDF Energy, it was known as SEEBoard and after privatisation
was bought by EDF (France).

On 26/03/2021 08:56, charles wrote:
In article , Tim Streater
wrote:
On 25 Mar 2021 at 20:43:43 GMT, Chris Green wrote:

Tim Streater wrote:

I quite agree that paying efficiently by DD makes sense but that
isn't a reason for the extra 'layer' of paper pushers (or DD
pushers) between me and the actual producers of electricity.

Don't be silly. If these middlemen didn't do it, then the actual
power companies would have to do it. As it is, they just sell a few
large chunks of power to the middlemen, who set up tarriffs which
they offer to us. The middlemen also insulate us from risk due to
changes in the price *they* have to pay to get power. It's a form of
forward buying, similar to forward selling by coffee growers or other
such producers, but I imagine you don't approve of that either.

So how did it work before it was all done this way? It's not been like
this for all that long has it?

Before that AFAIK there was only one supplier of volts which was your
local electricity board. Which was nationalised and had no incentive to
cut costs.

and they didn't need to make a profit for shareholders or pay vast
directors' salaries


Or bother with customer service, like GPO telephones who made
customers remember that they should be content that the GPO
accepted them a customer.

And without a profit (actually massive losses every year) the only
money for investment was by government dictat and public borrowing.
This is why raw sewage was just dumped into the sea all around the
coast (cheaper than treating it).

On 26/03/2021 14:17, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Harry Bloomfield wrote:
It happens that Dave Plowman (News) formulated :
As opposed to privatized, where the incentive is to make the maximum
profit.

But against considerable competition vying for our custom, so the net
result is much cheaper for us. I think that is important.

So we have lots of companies with lots of duplicated overheads selling
exactly the same product. And all making a profit. Which makes absolutely
no sense at all.


Seems to make sense with the car industry, TV industry, Smart Phone
industries, ...

Why did BMW and VW thrive while British Leyland and Rootes Group
self-destructed ?

On 26/03/2021 14:24, Andy Burns wrote:

Dave Plowman wrote:

Harry Bloomfield wrote:

there is a very obvious need to separate production from
distribution and retailing.

But not with water, for some reason.

Not for domestic water supplies, but you can switch for businesses, e.g.

https://aquaswitch.co.uk



There is no way of interconnecting water supplies across the
country. Until that happens there cannot be a way for a 3rd
party to buy water from the cheapest source.

And water supply is only half the equation. removing and treating
'grey /foul + surface water' is the other half.

On 26/03/2021 15:31, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 26/03/2021 15:17, Andrew wrote:
On 25/03/2021 16:20, Jeff Layman wrote:
I thought I should finally make an effort to change from an EDF standard
variable dual-fuel tariff to a fixed EDF one.

Hmmm. How much is your electricity tariff now ?.

17.81p/kWh. S/C is 27.5p/d. Will rise to 19.84 and 28.64 on 1 April,
which is why I'm looking at a fixed tariff now.


So am I. EDF sent me an email stating that prices would be
going up in april and it is all Ofgems 'fault'.

I am seriously considering Octopus Agile because I can easily
shift usage away from 16:00 to 19:00, but needs a dreaded
smart meter.

On 26/03/2021 13:34, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 26/03/2021 09:24, Peter Able wrote:
On 25/03/2021 22:38, alan_m wrote:
On 25/03/2021 21:44, newshound wrote:
On 25/03/2021 18:45, Peter Able wrote:
On 25/03/2021 16:20, Jeff Layman wrote:
I assumed it would not be simple

So you were proved correct.Â* d-i-y, for sure.

Move on - and the less restrictions you apply, the better the deal
you'll find on any of the numerous energy-switching sites.

PA

Time I switched again too. I've always used the Which? service because
I (more or less) trust them and think they are a useful campaigning
organisation, but does anyone have other thoughts?

Surely Which? recommends Octopus (according to the adverts) - much more
expensive when I checked their tariffs this year.




https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/co...ricity-prices/


Seems to be pretty comprehensive.

Indeed. I'd not looked at that site before. Thanks for the notice.

And, OP, there is an option called "pay on receipt of bill" - if you
insist on not using Direct Debit.Â* Seems to cost about £200 extra per
annum if you do so.Â* Your choice.

A decision to make.


Well, as EdF have given you such a rough time I'd guess that one
definite decision is to leave them !

PA

On 26/03/2021 16:00, Andrew wrote:
On 26/03/2021 14:17, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Â*Â*Â* Harry Bloomfield wrote:
It happens that Dave Plowman (News) formulated :
As opposed to privatized, where the incentive is to make the maximum
profit.

But against considerable competition vying for our custom, so the net
result is much cheaper for us. I think that is important.

So we have lots of companies with lots of duplicated overheads selling
exactly the same product. And all making a profit. Which makes absolutely
no sense at all.


Seems to make sense with the car industry, TV industry, Smart Phone
industries, ...

Why did BMW and VW thrive while British Leyland and Rootes Group
self-destructed ?

Are you insinuating BMW and VW should have been bankrupt in short time
and BL / Rootes should have cornered the market?

On 26/03/2021 16:05, Andrew wrote:
On 26/03/2021 14:24, Andy Burns wrote:

Dave Plowman wrote:

Harry Bloomfield wrote:

there is a very obvious need to separate production from
distribution and retailing.

But not with water, for some reason.

Not for domestic water supplies, but you can switch for businesses, e.g.

https://aquaswitch.co.uk



There is no way of interconnecting water supplies across the
country. Until that happens there cannot be a way for a 3rd
party to buy water from the cheapest source.

And water supply is only half the equation. removing and treating
'grey /foul + surface water' is the other half.

The cost is more like 1/3 for the water and 2/3 for treating wastewater.
I had a water meter fitted to a garden tap because I was paying the
water company for something they weren't doing. The meter will pay for
itself in 2 - 3 years at current usage.

--

Jeff

On Fri, 26 Mar 2021 15:45:05 +0000, Jeff Layman
wrote:

On 26/03/2021 15:17, Scott wrote:
On Fri, 26 Mar 2021 14:26:19 +0000, Scott
wrote:

On Fri, 26 Mar 2021 14:19:41 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Scott wrote:
On Fri, 26 Mar 2021 11:19:06 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Scott wrote:
Why a monthly direct debit? Mine produces a bill every three months
and collects the sum due by direct debit.

They are effectively giving you credit for more time than monthly. Which
is going to cost you more. I don't think any of the best deals do
quarterly.

I think the counter-argument is that you are paying the correct amount
instead of allowing the supplier to pick a higher amount then refund
you - or not - at the end of the year.

My monthly DD is based on my use the previous month. Meters are read
monthly. And I can check on my account whether there is any long term
discrepancy.

That is just as good - possibly better from the budgeting point of
view. I think the criticism is where suppliers estimate a whole year
and set an average, which is typically higher than the actual usage,
leaving a credit at the year end.

PS I have found the paperwork. It's called 'variable direct debit'. I
cannot find any any specific mention of frequency of payment but it
says '1st day of the month' so I assume it is paid monthly.
EDF tells me that "Pay As You Go" is a new way to pay if you have a
smart meter. I assume that means monthly or quarterly direct debit based
on actual usage. But it's not easy to find that method on their website
or comparison ones.

I think it is called variable direct debit. Pay As You Go may be a
specific EDF product name.

But there was a strange comment on what seemed to be a similar type of
tariff. They set up a standard amount DD to be paid quarterly, but asked
for the actual meter reading when the bill was due. They added that a
meter reading should not be sent to them unless it was asked for. Why am
I cynical enough to believe that they /might/ forget to ask for one in
summer when the DD would be much higher than the actual amount used, but
be quick off the mark in winter when the actual amount would be higher
than the DD?

I certainly would not agree to that. I want them to create the bill,
allow me access to check it and collect the money a suitable number of
days later. That AIUI is what variable direct debit does.

On 26/03/2021 16:18, Andrew wrote:
On 26/03/2021 15:31, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 26/03/2021 15:17, Andrew wrote:
On 25/03/2021 16:20, Jeff Layman wrote:
I thought I should finally make an effort to change from an EDF standard
variable dual-fuel tariff to a fixed EDF one.

Hmmm. How much is your electricity tariff now ?.

17.81p/kWh. S/C is 27.5p/d. Will rise to 19.84 and 28.64 on 1 April,
which is why I'm looking at a fixed tariff now.


So am I. EDF sent me an email stating that prices would be
going up in april and it is all Ofgems 'fault'.

I am seriously considering Octopus Agile because I can easily
shift usage away from 16:00 to 19:00, but needs a dreaded
smart meter.

I don't have one either, but I would consider one and DD *IF* the
supplier would guarantee that the payment, whether monthly or quarterly,
would be based on actual usage and not on assumed usage. Heating here is
by gas, although the logburner helps in winter. I reckon I've got enough
logs and some solid fuel to last another 5 years for "average" winters.
It'll probably be banned after that as environmentally unfriendly!

--

Jeff

On 26/03/2021 16:31, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 26/03/2021 16:05, Andrew wrote:
On 26/03/2021 14:24, Andy Burns wrote:

Dave Plowman wrote:

Harry Bloomfield wrote:

there is a very obvious need to separate production from
distribution and retailing.

But not with water, for some reason.

Not for domestic water supplies, but you can switch for businesses, e.g.

https://aquaswitch.co.uk



There is no way of interconnecting water supplies across the
country. Until that happens there cannot be a way for a 3rd
party to buy water from the cheapest source.

And water supply is only half the equation. removing and treating
'grey /foul + surface water' is the other half.

The cost is more like 1/3 for the water and 2/3 for treating wastewater.
I had a water meter fitted to a garden tap because I was paying the
water company for something they weren't doing. The meter will pay for
itself in 2 - 3 years at current usage.


My annual Southern water bill was £330/year. Since being on a meter
I pay about £120/year (v little garden usage).

On 26/03/2021 13:25, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 26/03/2021 10:23, alan_m wrote:
On 26/03/2021 09:17, Jeff Layman wrote:

the water company
makes no charge. Why are the energy companies different?

They do make a charge but don't show it as a separate amount.Â* Being a
monopoly supplier in an area means that they can also charge as much as
they like for providing the bill. Billing and payment doesn't come for
free.

Not here. You are sent a water bill, and are shown the various ways to
pay it. There is no reduction for paying by DD.


Exactly, a monopoly and you only pay the higher price!

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

Andrew wrote:
Err, are you confusing EDF the state-owned operator of some of Britains
Nukes, and EDF *Energy* which was sold (by EDF) in 2012 to a Hong Kong
based zillionaire (but still uses the EDF moniker for the retail
operations) ?. This company is actually called UK Power networks or
something similar. It is nothing to do with the French government. quite
why they are allowed to trade as 'EDF' is a mystery.

That doesn't seem to square with wikipedia - it appears EDF Energy is owned
by the French EDF (Electricite de France). EDF Energy controls the nukes.
EDF Energy also has retail accounts of 5.7 million customers.

EDF Energy Networks was the distribution arm which was sold to a company
owned by Li Ka Shing (of Port of Felixstowe and Three mobile, among many
other interests), and renamed UK Power Networks.

UKPN is the Distribution Network Operator for much of southern England, but
doesn't have retail customers. They trade as UKPN, not EDF-something.

So if you get a bill from EDF the power may be generated by EDF nukes but
delivered along UKPN wires (if you live in the SE), and it's UKPN you call
if you have a power cut.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EDF_Energy

Before EDF Energy, it was known as SEEBoard and after privatisation
was bought by EDF (France).

Seems like it also had the distribution rights of London Electricity, SWEB,
and Eastern Electricity. I think that if you never switched and are in the
London, SE or Eastern regions, you would have ended up at EDF.

Theo

On 26/03/2021 14:26, Scott wrote:


That is just as good - possibly better from the budgeting point of
view. I think the criticism is where suppliers estimate a whole year
and set an average, which is typically higher than the actual usage,
leaving a credit at the year end.


I'm currently paying that way with the monthly DD taken in advance but
the amount is based on the annual consumption figures I entered. In the
previous year I ended up in credit but mainly due to house improvements
that resulted in me using less energy. A quick email and the credit was
refunded back into my bank account.

You may argue that paying in advance and with a fixed amount I'm lending
money to the energy company but (for my consumption) I'm probably paying
a couple of hundred pounds less that any deals that the OP is being
offered with his method of payment or even from EDF with DD. The Cheap
Energy Club currently cannot offer me a cheaper deal. I don't
necessarily chase the cheapest deal but this year I seem to have got
lucky with taking out a new fixed price contract around 30 days ago (but
signed up 60 days ago) with the same supplier before they increased
prices in line with other suppliers.

I really don't mind which DD method they bill me but but for some people
having a fixed monthly bill suits them for financial management purposes.


--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 26 Mar 2021 17:25:32 GMT, Tim Streater
wrote:

On 26 Mar 2021 at 15:19:57 GMT, Scott wrote:

On Thu, 25 Mar 2021 22:34:13 +0000, Max Demian
wrote:

On 25/03/2021 18:44, Scott wrote:
On Thu, 25 Mar 2021 18:06:31 +0000, Jeff Layman
wrote:
On 25/03/2021 16:57, Michael Chare wrote:

These days nearly all suppliers want paid monthly by direct debit. One
difference is how often they change the amount that they want to take.
It is poaaible to ring your bank and ask them to reclaim a direct debit.
I did once do this. The bank were a little reluntant but they did do as
asked.

Why a monthly direct debit? Mine produces a bill every three months
and collects the sum due by direct debit.

Who does that? Did they offer that method or did you have to find out
for yourself? EDF and British Gas don't seem to offer that.

*Update* British Gas offers variable direct debit. I think it's
monthly payments but at least it's based on usage. I would never
allow the supplier to invent the amount.

These things generally are variable DD. Be pretty dopey otherwise. Mine varies
throughout the year and I'm not sure I've ever seen it not do that, whoever I
was with.

The context of the thread (AIUI) is that OP is suggesting the tariffs
he is finding involve a monthly fixed payment with adjustment later,
which is why he wanted a cheque/cash option. .

On 26/03/2021 17:38, alan_m wrote:
On 26/03/2021 13:25, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 26/03/2021 10:23, alan_m wrote:
On 26/03/2021 09:17, Jeff Layman wrote:

the water company
makes no charge. Why are the energy companies different?

They do make a charge but don't show it as a separate amount.Â* Being a
monopoly supplier in an area means that they can also charge as much as
they like for providing the bill. Billing and payment doesn't come for
free.

Not here. You are sent a water bill, and are shown the various ways to
pay it. There is no reduction for paying by DD.


Exactly, a monopoly and you only pay the higher price!

Ah - that's what you meant! :-)

But aren't Ofwat criticised by the water companies for keeping their
prices down and making them pay up when they've done something naughty?
In fact, we're all getting small rebates every year for the next few
years since our water company was caught out:
https://www.southernwater.co.uk/our-performance/making-amends-to-our-customers

--

Jeff