On 26/03/2021 16:36, Scott wrote:

I certainly would not agree to that. I want them to create the bill,
allow me access to check it and collect the money a suitable number of
days later. That AIUI is what variable direct debit does.

I think there is a legal requirement to inform you before changing any
amount taken on a variable DD hence a monthly bill[1]. However the time
between being informed and the DD going through may be short. It also
means that those who have signed up for paperless billing have to make
the effort to go on-line at the appropriate time.

[1]
Where the variable amounts are known in advance (council tax higher in
the first month and lower in subsequent months) a yearly bill in advance
is all that is necessary.

With my energy supplier the DD is a fixed amount every month and in
advance. To meet the DD rules I probably only have to be told this once
at the beginning of the contract because the amount doesn't change.
Perhaps this saves in admin costs and allowing the bill to be any day
from the 10th to the 15th of the month.


--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 26/03/2021 16:40, Andrew wrote:
On 26/03/2021 16:31, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 26/03/2021 16:05, Andrew wrote:
On 26/03/2021 14:24, Andy Burns wrote:

Dave Plowman wrote:

Harry Bloomfield wrote:

there is a very obvious need to separate production from
distribution and retailing.

But not with water, for some reason.

Not for domestic water supplies, but you can switch for businesses, e.g.

https://aquaswitch.co.uk



There is no way of interconnecting water supplies across the
country. Until that happens there cannot be a way for a 3rd
party to buy water from the cheapest source.

And water supply is only half the equation. removing and treating
'grey /foul + surface water' is the other half.

The cost is more like 1/3 for the water and 2/3 for treating wastewater.
I had a water meter fitted to a garden tap because I was paying the
water company for something they weren't doing. The meter will pay for
itself in 2 - 3 years at current usage.


My annual Southern water bill was £330/year. Since being on a meter
I pay about £120/year (v little garden usage).

Last year, due to long periods without rain, I used 35 m^3 on the
garden. That's around £70 worth of wastewater charge. What is annoying
is that Southern Water won't allow an adjustment online. I have to phone
them up and give them the meter reading. So far nobody has been round to
check it, but I assume they will one day.

--

Jeff

alan_m wrote:

I think there is a legal requirement to inform you before changing any
amount taken on a variable DD hence a monthly bill[1]. However the time
between being informed and the DD going through may be short.

Plusnet take variable amounts by DD each month (due to call charges and
random discounts) they do send an advance notice.

On 26/03/2021 11:21, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
Before that AFAIK there was only one supplier of volts which was your
local electricity board. Which was nationalised and had no incentive to
cut costs.

As opposed to privatized, where the incentive is to make the maximum
profit.


And what is wrong with profit? If you have a private pension this is
mainly what it paying for it. The profit also pays for all the money
that HASN'T been borrowed from the tax payer.

There seems to be a some myth that these industries when Nationalised
had cheap prices, provided great customer service and invested in the
future (or even invested in ongoing maintenance).

Even now Royal Mail seems to have woken up (20 years too late) to the
fact they are losing a lot of business to their competitors and are now
considering Sunday deliveries for packages.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 26/03/2021 14:14, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Harry Bloomfield wrote:
I know you can, but would you expect to always go to the farm for your
milk, for your fruit and your veg? Would you go to the refinery for
your petrol and diesel? To the weaver for your clothes? To the printer
for your books? To the manufacturer for you car. There have always been
middlemen and always will be, because there is a very obvious need to
separate production from distribution and retailing.

But not with water, for some reason.



Wasn't the reason for privatising water a sudden realisation that very
little maintenance had been done on a 100 year old system and a massive
injection of cash was required. Much better for a regulator to try and
beat up a private company to sort out the problems rather than beat up
the UK tax payer.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 26/03/2021 16:18, Peter Able wrote:


And, OP, there is an option called "pay on receipt of bill" - if you
insist on not using Direct Debit.Â* Seems to cost about £200 extra per
annum if you do so.Â* Your choice.

Many comparison sites have a cash/cheque/BAC/quarterly filter options.

First find the top prices using the filter options to include all
methods of payment and then change the payment option to cash/cheque on
a quarterly basis and all the available suppliers with those options
will show prices £200 to £300 higher than the best in market.

I get the impression that most energy companies don't need that type of
customer and will therefore attempt to price them out.


--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On Fri, 26 Mar 2021 18:33:41 +0000, alan_m
wrote:

On 26/03/2021 16:36, Scott wrote:

I certainly would not agree to that. I want them to create the bill,
allow me access to check it and collect the money a suitable number of
days later. That AIUI is what variable direct debit does.

I think there is a legal requirement to inform you before changing any
amount taken on a variable DD hence a monthly bill[1]. However the time
between being informed and the DD going through may be short. It also
means that those who have signed up for paperless billing have to make
the effort to go on-line at the appropriate time.

[1]
Where the variable amounts are known in advance (council tax higher in
the first month and lower in subsequent months) a yearly bill in advance
is all that is necessary.

With my energy supplier the DD is a fixed amount every month and in
advance. To meet the DD rules I probably only have to be told this once
at the beginning of the contract because the amount doesn't change.
Perhaps this saves in admin costs and allowing the bill to be any day
from the 10th to the 15th of the month.

In other words, fixed DD benefits the supplier. On top of that, if the
monthly sum is exaggerated the supplier benefits from the account
credit, which AIUI was the point OP was making in the first place. The
concern seems to be that suppliers can benefit by holding the
customer's money. How would you propose to remedy this within the
framework of a fixed DD?

On 26/03/2021 11:04, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
alan_m formulated on Thursday :
Surely Which? recommends Octopus (according to the adverts) - much
more expensive when I checked their tariffs this year.

Cheapest can change very rapidly, even week by week, which is why each
company has so many names for their tariffs like V21.5 and there are
always special offers if they are wanting to increase their customer
base. The trick is to find a particularly good offer, during the last
few weeks of your annual contract with your present supplier, then
switch - before your present supplier moves you onto one of their
'standard contracts'.

I'm aware of this - I was only making the point that Octopus have an TV
advertising campaign based only on Which? recommendations rather than
prices.


Exceptionally - I didn't change supplier at the end of my last annual
contract, I spotted a better contract tariff for this year with my
present one and I'm now paying 15 to 20% less than I would have been to
a new supplier, with a new contract. My present new tariff was only
available for a short while and I didn't really expect them to allow me
to take it - as an existing customer.

Exactly what I did with Avro two years ago - I cancelled one contract
(no exit fees) and signed up for their cheaper deal. This was at a time
of falling energy prices.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 26/03/2021 11:13, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
alan_m explained :
Most companies do not contact you to offer a new deal or even to say
that your old deal is coming to an end. They make more money by just
placing you on their standard variable tariff and hope you don't notice.

I think they are legally obliged to let you know when your contract is
coming to an end. Certainly every company I have been with recently, has
emailed me to let me know and advised what tariff I would be moved to at
the end. Even if they didn't, I'm signed up with MSE to let me know and
make suggestions as to which supplier and tariff would be my best one to
move to.


This year MSE failed miserably - they didn't show any deals from my
current supplier which actually had deals comparable with the cheapest
suppliers in their list. Even when I switched to a new deal with my
current supplier I couldn't select the tariff I'm on in the MSE list.
It's only in the past few days they seem to have rectified this problem.



--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 26/03/2021 16:40, Jeff Layman wrote:

I don't have one either, but I would consider one and DD *IF* the
supplier would guarantee that the payment, whether monthly or quarterly,
would be based on actual usage and not on assumed usage.

It looks as if you are going to be stuck with the tariff type you
current are on and spending maybe £200 extra to make sure that you are
not spending a few pennies too much by overpaying on DD.


--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 26/03/2021 19:25, Scott wrote:

In other words, fixed DD benefits the supplier. On top of that, if the
monthly sum is exaggerated the supplier benefits from the account
credit, which AIUI was the point OP was making in the first place. The
concern seems to be that suppliers can benefit by holding the
customer's money. How would you propose to remedy this within the
framework of a fixed DD?


I don't have problems with my DD because the amount taken over the year
closely matches my usage. Even in the year where I reduced my annual
energy consumption the excess was paid back quickly when requested.

Common sense comes into play. If you check your bills and find that the
DD amount taken is excessive just email the company and request that the
amount is reduced.



--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

In article , Jeff Layman
writes
On 26/03/2021 08:52, alan_m wrote:
On 26/03/2021 08:06, Jeff Layman wrote:

From what i understand, the energy companies' "DD guarantee" far
from
saying that they won't overcharge you almost guarantees they will! If
not, why have Ofgem made a very-obvious public statement about the
overcharging?

Stick to your principles and pay by check/cash/BACs and have a very
restricted choice of tariffs and pay 10% to 30% more.

Another fiddle. Assuming there is a fixed cost to supply an individual
bill rather than extract a DD payment, the charge should be the same
whether the energy bill is £5 or £500. But it isn't - they apply a
percentage to the bill. BT applies a fixed amount, the water company
makes no charge. Why are the energy companies different?

Often the initial DD charges are based on the figures the _customer_
gives to the energy supplier.

For a new supplier maybe, but the energy company must know a
longer-term customer's average usage. If the DD is consistently too
high, resulting in the account being in credit every year, something is
wrong.

I'm with EDF and my account is currently in debit. They haven't
increased the amount as they know it will pull back in the summer
months. That happens when your agreement starts in the autumn as mine
did.

They are better than United Utilities whose water bill forecasting is
all over the place.


--
bert

On 26/03/2021 19:46, alan_m wrote:
On 26/03/2021 16:40, Jeff Layman wrote:

I don't have one either, but I would consider one and DD *IF* the
supplier would guarantee that the payment, whether monthly or quarterly,
would be based on actual usage and not on assumed usage.

It looks as if you are going to be stuck with the tariff type you
current are on and spending maybe £200 extra to make sure that you are
not spending a few pennies too much by overpaying on DD.

Maybe. The citizens advice website pointed to this, and noted I could
save a couple of hundred pounds a year:
https://freepricecompare.com/home-energy/tariffs/new-energy-tariffs-announced-by-sse/
The one at the top (SSE €“ Online Energy v10 Paperless Billing) seems to
allow payment by MDD, QDD, or PORB, and so do many of the others on that
webpage. I'll have a look on the SSE website to see what the T&C are, as
I'm not eager to fill in the personal details required at the
frrepricecompare website - not just address, but phone number and email too.

--

Jeff

In article , Tim Streater
writes
On 25 Mar 2021 at 18:50:52 GMT, alan_m wrote:

On 25/03/2021 18:28, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 25/03/2021 16:25, Andy Burns wrote:
Jeff Layman wrote:

I wanted a fixed tariff and to pay quarterly by cash/cheque.

Doubt you'll find one on offer.

https://my.edfenergy.com/gas-electricity/tariff-information-labels/

Enter any valid postcode. Select cash/cheque as payment method, then
click on "Apply filters", Then Cash/cheque Whole Amount (Quarterly).

Quite a few tariffs will appear (eventually - it's a slow website).


But by paying by cheque the cost per unit (kWh) is 10% to 11% higher
compared with paying by monthly DD. This is for both electricity and gas.

The daily standing charge is around 20p whereas I'm paying around 15p
per day with my supplier. I'm also paying less per unit with my supplier
than the EDF monthly DD fixed plan.

Less per unit is better if you have to choose, The SO is much the smaller
component of overall cost for most people.
I have spread sheet calculator. Just put in the tariffs and it works out
he bill. I can vary current usage by any %age to see what difference it
makes. Usually very little and not enough to sway the decision.
--
bert

In article , Andy Burns
writes
Jeff Layman wrote:

https://my.edfenergy.com/gas-electricity/tariff-information-labels/
Enter any valid postcode. Select cash/cheque as payment method, then
click on "Apply filters", Then Cash/cheque Whole Amount (Quarterly).
Quite a few tariffs will appear (eventually - it's a slow website).

So slow I'd have given-up and gone elsewhere

only a 1.5p/kWh 'sting' for quarterly cheque vs monthly direct debit.

The cost per transaction for DD to the company is a fraction of the cost
of processing a cheque. Plus the payment arrives on time and is correct.
You have no idea how many errors there are in hand written cheques.
--
bert

On 26/03/2021 20:31, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 26/03/2021 19:46, alan_m wrote:
On 26/03/2021 16:40, Jeff Layman wrote:

I don't have one either, but I would consider one and DD *IF* the
supplier would guarantee that the payment, whether monthly or quarterly,
would be based on actual usage and not on assumed usage.

It looks as if you are going to be stuck with the tariff type you
current are on and spending maybe £200 extra to make sure that you are
not spending a few pennies too much by overpaying on DD.

Maybe. The citizens advice website pointed to this, and noted I could
save a couple of hundred pounds a year:
https://freepricecompare.com/home-energy/tariffs/new-energy-tariffs-announced-by-sse/
The one at the top (SSE €“ Online Energy v10 Paperless Billing) seems to
allow payment by MDD, QDD, or PORB, and so do many of the others on that
webpage. I'll have a look on the SSE website to see what the T&C are, as
I'm not eager to fill in the personal details required at the
frrepricecompare website - not just address, but phone number and email too.

The SSE website states "All our fixed-price tariffs are only available
online if you choose to pay by monthly Direct Debit. If you prefer to
use a different payment method, please contact us directly."

So it looks like neither QDD or PORB are available, so why does
freepricecompare suggest they are available? Or maybe they are
available, but not at the price stated. If so, the comparison site
should make that clear.

--

Jeff

"Jeff Layman" wrote in message
...
On 26/03/2021 08:52, alan_m wrote:
On 26/03/2021 08:06, Jeff Layman wrote:

From what i understand, the energy companies' "DD guarantee" far from
saying that they won't overcharge you almost guarantees they will! If
not, why have Ofgem made a very-obvious public statement about the
overcharging?


Stick to your principles and pay by check/cash/BACs and have a very
restricted choice of tariffs and pay 10% to 30% more.

Another fiddle. Assuming there is a fixed cost to supply an individual
bill rather than extract a DD payment, the charge should be the same
whether the energy bill is £5 or £500. But it isn't - they apply a
percentage to the bill. BT applies a fixed amount, the water company makes
no charge. Why are the energy companies different?

That market is much more competitive now.

Often the initial DD charges are based on the figures the _customer_
gives to the energy supplier.

For a new supplier maybe, but the energy company must know a longer-term
customer's average usage. If the DD is consistently too high, resulting in
the account being in credit every year, something is wrong.

But there is a real incentive for it to be in credit
every year given their margins are so low now.

On Fri, 26 Mar 2021 19:58:57 +0000, alan_m
wrote:

On 26/03/2021 19:25, Scott wrote:

In other words, fixed DD benefits the supplier. On top of that, if the
monthly sum is exaggerated the supplier benefits from the account
credit, which AIUI was the point OP was making in the first place. The
concern seems to be that suppliers can benefit by holding the
customer's money. How would you propose to remedy this within the
framework of a fixed DD?

I don't have problems with my DD because the amount taken over the year
closely matches my usage. Even in the year where I reduced my annual
energy consumption the excess was paid back quickly when requested.

When requested ...

Common sense comes into play. If you check your bills and find that the
DD amount taken is excessive just email the company and request that the
amount is reduced.

I would prefer the DD amount to equate to the amount shown on the
bill. When I go to the supermarket I pay for the items in the basket.
I generally prefer that approach to shopping.

On Sat, 27 Mar 2021 08:02:45 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH the trolling senile asshole's latest troll**** unread

--
John addressing the senile Australian pest:
"You are a complete idiot. But you make me larf. LOL"
MID:

"Jeff Layman" wrote in message
...
The SSE website states "All our fixed-price tariffs are only available
online if you choose to pay by monthly Direct Debit. If you prefer to use
a different payment method, please contact us directly."

So it looks like neither QDD or PORB are available, so why does
freepricecompare suggest they are available? Or maybe they are available,
but not at the price stated. If so, the comparison site should make that
clear.

Does "pay monthly by direct debit" imply the spawn-of-the-devil budgeted
payments where you don't pay the bill for what you have *actually* used, but
instead pay what the utility company anticipates you will use, based on
previous usage and fiddle-factors for what time of year it is?

I want to pay what I have actually used, according to real meter readings
(mine or meter-reader's). Whether that is divided into monthly installments
or a quarterly lump sump is irrelevant. But I don't want the hassle of
finding that I'm getting more and more into credit (they never let you get
into debt) but they still keep on deducting the standard amount instead of
correcting things back to a neutral state once a year.

I'd like to see OfGem get involved to prohibit budgeted bills and force
companies to charge (by installments or lump sum, as the customer prefers)
what has actually been used. Or if that is impossible, to mandate that they
must correct for any overpayment (by under-charging you for one month) no
less often than once a year.

"Andrew" wrote in message
...
On 26/03/2021 14:17, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Harry Bloomfield wrote:
It happens that Dave Plowman (News) formulated :
As opposed to privatized, where the incentive is to make the maximum
profit.

But against considerable competition vying for our custom, so the net
result is much cheaper for us. I think that is important.

So we have lots of companies with lots of duplicated overheads selling
exactly the same product. And all making a profit. Which makes absolutely
no sense at all.


Seems to make sense with the car industry, TV industry, Smart Phone
industries, ...

Why did BMW and VW thrive while British Leyland and Rootes Group
self-destructed ?

Much better cars and due to the euro, germany got
an effective devaluation which helps exporters a lot.

"Rod Speed is an entirely modern phenomenon. Essentially, Rod Speed
is an insecure and worthless individual who has discovered he can
enhance his own self-esteem in his own eyes by playing "the big, hard
man" on the InterNet."
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/r...d-faq.2973853/

--
Keema Nam addressing nym-shifting senile Rodent:
"You are now exposed as a liar, as well as an ignorant troll."
"MID: .com"

On 26/03/2021 20:33, bert wrote:
In article , Andy Burns
writes
Jeff Layman wrote:

https://my.edfenergy.com/gas-electricity/tariff-information-labels/
Enter any valid postcode. Select cash/cheque as payment method, then
click on "Apply filters", Then Cash/cheque Whole Amount (Quarterly).
Quite a few tariffs will appear (eventually - it's a slow website).

So slow I'd have given-up and gone elsewhere

only a 1.5p/kWh 'sting' for quarterly cheque vs monthly direct debit.

The cost per transaction for DD to the company is a fraction of the cost
of processing a cheque. Plus the payment arrives on time and is correct.
You have no idea how many errors there are in hand written cheques.

As I said, I use BACS, not a cheque - it's just the term EDF uses. It
costs the company almost nothing to process that, and it arrives on time
and is correct. The reason they want DD is to use someone else's money
at no cost to them. In fact, even the tiny interest rate they get on
that money adds up when you have millions in the bank. I wonder in what
form that appears on their annual accounts?

--

Jeff

On 26/03/2021 15:20, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 26/03/2021 14:41, Martin Brown wrote:
On 25/03/2021 18:28, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 25/03/2021 16:25, Andy Burns wrote:
Jeff Layman wrote:

I wanted a fixed tariff and to pay quarterly by cash/cheque.

Doubt you'll find one on offer.

https://my.edfenergy.com/gas-electricity/tariff-information-labels/

Enter any valid postcode. Select cash/cheque as payment method, then
click on "Apply filters", Then Cash/cheque Whole Amount (Quarterly).

Quite a few tariffs will appear (eventually - it's a slow website).

They might appear but they are mirages.

I'm waiting for EDF to get back to me and email the relevant
information. Hmm - do I see hell freezing over?...

The only tariffs with decent prices are dual fuel deals for some fixed
period with billing online only and paid by monthly direct debit. It
helps to know your exact annual usage to get to the optimum deal.

I know my exact usage, and have fed both annual kWh figures into the
calculators at EDF and comparison websites.

I find it incredibly frustrating that you cannot just download a table
of numbers showing the various fixed charges and rates.

The whole system is designed to be as opaque and impenetrable as
possible. Why else do we need all those switch sites to do what should
be a fairly simple calculation? I didn't actually check the total number
(including those no longer available), but when I looked at the EDF
tariff list, it seemed there were approaching 100 different tariffs
there. I have no doubt the other big players have a similar number.

One other thing which really annoys me is that nearly all websites
require your actual address as well as your postcode. Why? How many
places are there where the houses on either side will be on completely
different tariff offers? Some comparison sites don't need the full
address. If they don't, why do the others insist on it? It's just to get
you on yet another database somewhere.

Its also so they check you are not an existing customer and then offer
you a better deal!

(you can always use a neighbours address to get a quote!)


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 26/03/2021 21:34, NY wrote:

I'd like to see OfGem get involved to prohibit budgeted bills and force
companies to charge (by installments or lump sum, as the customer
prefers) what has actually been used.

This may happen when everyone has a (working) smart meter. What happens
when the companies have to rely on customer readings and they are not
provided, perhaps because of holidays, or hospitalisation, or just
laziness or stupidity?

Or if that is impossible, to
mandate that they must correct for any overpayment (by under-charging
you for one month) no less often than once a year.

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/system/file...t_feb_2019.pdf

All the "horror" stories that get high profile attention seem to be
about people who seem to be incapable of reading their own meter for
years on end and incapable of reading their own energy bills. In some
cases "I've never had a bill in 3 years" but have never bothered to
question why.

Then there are the estimated 2 million people in arrears with their
energy usage payments who may be just ignoring requests for meter
readings and complaining about the higher DD payments being requested to
make up previous shortfalls.

Many of the smaller, and cheaper, suppliers want the DD payment in
advance, including Avro (my current supplier), and this may because of
the number and cost of bad debts in the industry. Presumably if my DD
payment doesn't get honoured before I use any energy the cheap energy
contract has been broken and the tariff changes to the more expensive
"standard" rate.

Some companies may be better than others with payment amounts and I've
had on-line accounts where I could adjust my own DD payments on-line
(within limits) to match the actual consumption for that month or to pay
an average based on annual consumption. I didn't stick with that
supplier because at the end of contract they were one of the more
expensive in the market place.




--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 27/03/2021 00:16, John Rumm wrote:
On 26/03/2021 15:20, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 26/03/2021 14:41, Martin Brown wrote:


I find it incredibly frustrating that you cannot just download a table
of numbers showing the various fixed charges and rates.

The whole system is designed to be as opaque and impenetrable as
possible. Why else do we need all those switch sites to do what should
be a fairly simple calculation? I didn't actually check the total number
(including those no longer available), but when I looked at the EDF
tariff list, it seemed there were approaching 100 different tariffs
there. I have no doubt the other big players have a similar number.

One other thing which really annoys me is that nearly all websites
require your actual address as well as your postcode. Why? How many
places are there where the houses on either side will be on completely
different tariff offers? Some comparison sites don't need the full
address. If they don't, why do the others insist on it? It's just to get
you on yet another database somewhere.

Its also so they check you are not an existing customer and then offer
you a better deal!

I'd forgotten about that! Yes, just another fiddle to the disadvantage
of the customer.

(you can always use a neighbours address to get a quote!)

That's No.1 in my SOP for obtaining tariff info. :-)

--

Jeff

On 27/03/2021 07:58, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 27/03/2021 00:16, John Rumm wrote:


(you can always use a neighbours address to get a quote!)

That's No.1 in my SOP for obtaining tariff info. :-)


That's assuming your neighbour is not in arrears with his payments to
the energy companies and hence is blacklisted from obtaining a cheaper
quote elsewhere


--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 27/03/2021 08:21, alan_m wrote:
On 27/03/2021 07:58, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 27/03/2021 00:16, John Rumm wrote:


(you can always use a neighbours address to get a quote!)

That's No.1 in my SOP for obtaining tariff info. :-)


That's assuming your neighbour is not in arrears with his payments to
the energy companies and hence is blacklisted from obtaining a cheaper
quote elsewhere

More than one neighbour is available!

--

Jeff

On 26/03/2021 15:20, Andrew wrote:
On 25/03/2021 22:29, Max Demian wrote:

The "direct debit guarantee" doesn't guarantee that they won't
overcharge you and use the surplus to maintain their cash flow. I
prefer quarterly in arrears, so I'm only paying for what I use. Of
course, I don't actually pay by cash or cheque, I pay by bank transfer
online. They don't give you the option of paying the quarterly charge
by direct debit (after telling you how much). (Credit card companies
and BT manage to do that.)


+1, though I think BT have stopped offering quarterly variable DD's.

I still get them.

--
Max Demian

In article ,
Scott wrote:
My monthly DD is based on my use the previous month. Meters are read
monthly. And I can check on my account whether there is any long term
discrepancy.

That is just as good - possibly better from the budgeting point of
view. I think the criticism is where suppliers estimate a whole year
and set an average, which is typically higher than the actual usage,
leaving a credit at the year end.

I leave it all to Flipper. But have noticed that once a fixed monthly DD
was common, but the last couple of changes have gone to variable.

Everything being equal, paying as soon as possible for what you use should
give you the best deal. And a fixed monthly payment would mean you'll be
in credit some parts of the year and in debit at others. Or lending the
supplier money. Neither of which make it the best deal.

--
*Women like silent men; they think they're listening.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Fredxx wrote:
On 26/03/2021 14:17, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Harry Bloomfield wrote:
It happens that Dave Plowman (News) formulated :
As opposed to privatized, where the incentive is to make the maximum
profit.

But against considerable competition vying for our custom, so the net
result is much cheaper for us. I think that is important.

So we have lots of companies with lots of duplicated overheads selling
exactly the same product. And all making a profit. Which makes absolutely
no sense at all.

Strangely overheads tend to scale with the size of the company, with
large companies having disproportionately higher overheads.

Competition will also have effect of reducing those overheads. Hence the
numbers of small companies, rather than one big, efficient one.

So it really isn't that simple.

It isn't. If all those small companies were equally as efficient, they'd
all charge the same.

But we all know they are slow to tell you if even they could give *you* a
better deal. So their priority is to make the largest possible profit.

--
*WHY ARE HEMORRHOIDS CALLED "HEMORRHOIDS" INSTEAD OF "ASTEROIDS"?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
UK Power networks are the people who bring the volts to your door (possibly
more than one company for the whole UK but it's them around here). They are
the people you call when you have a power cut, nothing to do with billing. You
can call them on 105. They then send out chummy with his van to fix the
outage.

Very efficient too. Elderly and vulnerable neighbour had a supply fault,
and they had a generator there same day. Fault repaired within 48 hours.

--
*Work is for people who don't know how to fish.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 27/03/2021 14:07, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Fredxx wrote:
On 26/03/2021 14:17, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Harry Bloomfield wrote:
It happens that Dave Plowman (News) formulated :
As opposed to privatized, where the incentive is to make the maximum
profit.

But against considerable competition vying for our custom, so the net
result is much cheaper for us. I think that is important.

So we have lots of companies with lots of duplicated overheads selling
exactly the same product. And all making a profit. Which makes absolutely
no sense at all.

Strangely overheads tend to scale with the size of the company, with
large companies having disproportionately higher overheads.

Competition will also have effect of reducing those overheads. Hence the
numbers of small companies, rather than one big, efficient one.

So it really isn't that simple.

It isn't. If all those small companies were equally as efficient, they'd
all charge the same.

And the ones that are unprofitable fall by the wayside, leaving the
efficient ones behind. A kind of natural selection.

But we all know they are slow to tell you if even they could give *you* a
better deal. So their priority is to make the largest possible profit.

What you propose is ideal. However we live in the real world. It is up
to us customers to find a better deal.

On 27/03/2021 14:04, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Scott wrote:
My monthly DD is based on my use the previous month. Meters are read
monthly. And I can check on my account whether there is any long term
discrepancy.

That is just as good - possibly better from the budgeting point of
view. I think the criticism is where suppliers estimate a whole year
and set an average, which is typically higher than the actual usage,
leaving a credit at the year end.

I leave it all to Flipper. But have noticed that once a fixed monthly DD
was common, but the last couple of changes have gone to variable.

Everything being equal, paying as soon as possible for what you use should
give you the best deal. And a fixed monthly payment would mean you'll be
in credit some parts of the year and in debit at others. Or lending the
supplier money. Neither of which make it the best deal.



The companies are not necessarily buying the energy the same way as the
customer and a constant cash flow over 12 months may be better for their
buying needs. With a variable DD that reflects only the bill amount the
cash flow in summer may be a third to half what it will be in the winter
months.

Even some of the better deals may not be available to some of the bigger
auto swapping organisations. While the big energy companies can
accommodate say 100,000 switches in one go the smaller companies cannot
cope with this number in a single hit. Even some of the Cheap Energy
Club switches have been limited to the first, say, 25,000 customers that
apply.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

In article , charles
writes
In article , Tim Streater
wrote:
On 25 Mar 2021 at 20:43:43 GMT, Chris Green wrote:

Tim Streater wrote:

I quite agree that paying efficiently by DD makes sense but that
isn't a reason for the extra 'layer' of paper pushers (or DD
pushers) between me and the actual producers of electricity.

Don't be silly. If these middlemen didn't do it, then the actual
power companies would have to do it. As it is, they just sell a few
large chunks of power to the middlemen, who set up tarriffs which
they offer to us. The middlemen also insulate us from risk due to
changes in the price *they* have to pay to get power. It's a form of
forward buying, similar to forward selling by coffee growers or other
such producers, but I imagine you don't approve of that either.

So how did it work before it was all done this way? It's not been like
this for all that long has it?

Before that AFAIK there was only one supplier of volts which was your
local electricity board. Which was nationalised and had no incentive to
cut costs.

and they didn't need to make a profit for shareholders or pay vast
directors' salaries

But could sit on their arses all day doing next to nothing, and if short
of money simply put up prices.
--
bert

In article , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
Before that AFAIK there was only one supplier of volts which was your
local electricity board. Which was nationalised and had no incentive to
cut costs.

As opposed to privatized, where the incentive is to make the maximum
profit.

The return on capital in the utilities is quite small, as it is
considered a relatively safe investment.
In order to make a profit they have to provide a service.
--
bert

In article , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
Harry Bloomfield wrote:
It happens that Dave Plowman (News) formulated :
As opposed to privatized, where the incentive is to make the maximum
profit.

But against considerable competition vying for our custom, so the net
result is much cheaper for us. I think that is important.

So we have lots of companies with lots of duplicated overheads selling
exactly the same product. And all making a profit. Which makes absolutely
no sense at all.

Not to a socialist it doesn't
--
bert

In article , Fredxx
writes
On 26/03/2021 14:17, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Harry Bloomfield wrote:
It happens that Dave Plowman (News) formulated :
As opposed to privatized, where the incentive is to make the maximum
profit.

But against considerable competition vying for our custom, so the
net
result is much cheaper for us. I think that is important.
So we have lots of companies with lots of duplicated overheads
selling
exactly the same product. And all making a profit. Which makes absolutely
no sense at all.

Strangely overheads tend to scale with the size of the company, with
large companies having disproportionately higher overheads.

Competition will also have effect of reducing those overheads. Hence
the numbers of small companies, rather than one big, efficient one.

Did you mean "inefficient".
So it really isn't that simple.

--
bert

In article , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
Fredxx wrote:
On 26/03/2021 14:17, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Harry Bloomfield wrote:
It happens that Dave Plowman (News) formulated :
As opposed to privatized, where the incentive is to make the maximum
profit.

But against considerable competition vying for our custom, so the net
result is much cheaper for us. I think that is important.

So we have lots of companies with lots of duplicated overheads selling
exactly the same product. And all making a profit. Which makes absolutely
no sense at all.

Strangely overheads tend to scale with the size of the company, with
large companies having disproportionately higher overheads.

Competition will also have effect of reducing those overheads. Hence the
numbers of small companies, rather than one big, efficient one.

So it really isn't that simple.

It isn't. If all those small companies were equally as efficient, they'd
all charge the same.

But competition ensures they are all striving to be better.
But we all know they are slow to tell you if even they could give *you* a
better deal. So their priority is to make the largest possible profit.

They are required to now by the regulator. Their priority is to survive.
--
bert

In article , RJH
writes
On 26 Mar 2021 at 12:42:41 GMT, "Harry Bloomfield, Esq."
wrote:

It happens that Dave Plowman (News) formulated :
As opposed to privatized, where the incentive is to make the maximum
profit.

But against considerable competition vying for our custom, so the net
result is much cheaper for us. I think that is important.

I'm not convinced - it's ripe for cartels.

That's why we have various regulators. No-one these days believes in
laissez faire capitalism.
That said, my supplier (Yorkshire Energy) has just gone bust, which was of no
surprise to me as the prices were about 25% less than the nearest competitor.
I had relatively cheap fuel for a year, and I'm sure those managing it all did
OK too.


--
bert