On 23/12/2020 11:19, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 23 Dec 2020 00:58:33 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:

snip

Give a child an apple and a rabbit and it will play with the rabbit
and eat the apple. If on a desert island and without the conditioning,
at what point do you think it would think to eat the rabbit?


I would have it first, and save the apple for desert...

snip

Would you though? If you weren't brought up in a culture where animals
were seen as food, what would make you think they were edible?

On yer island, there is a child with an apple and a rabbit. Both the
rabbit and child will be dead pretty soon without some fresh water
anyway. I'm betting on the rabbit eating the child if the child is too
stupid to eat the rabbit. Is this child a vegan by any chance?


With no fire (knowledge of or the means to make one), how would you
process it to even make it consumable?

This is my point, if 'most people' see an injured animal or one in
distress they will generally do all they can to help. Releasing it
from being caught and / or taking it to a vet / rescue to ensure it
gets treatment (as we did recently with a goose with a leg that was
about to drop off because of fishing line).

The cognitive dissonance would be after rescuing said animal, people
would go and tuck into the remains of another animal that would have
suffered at some point?

Animals who wouldn't generally be here (or exist as a sub species)
*naturally*, they are only here because of *artificial* insemination.

Farmed Turkeys are probably not alone in being a farmed animal (even
the terms now disgusts me) unable to breed naturally, because of how
much we have mutated them for our own needs.

So, killing anything should only ever be done out of necessity, kill
of be killed, self defence (when that is the only assured solution),
.... or survival and the latter doesn't apply to the vast majority re
animals and food in 2020.

This (98 year old) sums most of it up:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FX58PyQwrcI

He died two years ago ;(
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellsworth_Wareham


I get though why you would try to defend the idea of seeing (a
restricted sub set of all species of) animals as food, because that's
both how you were brought up and you say you have relatives who earn
their livelihoods off the exploitation of other creatures (as I and
millions of others would see it).


Cheers, T i m

On 21/12/2020 15:09, T i m wrote:

Sure, but hopefully after a long and natural life, not as a child (as
most animals killed for their flesh are very young and getting younger
(with foods and drugs) as that's better for profits).

Foxes are capable of living 20 years, but their average life span
appears to be about five.

Given that foxes aren't bred for meat and so have no profit motive
associated with that, where do you suspect their 'long and natural life'
might come from, as 'nature' doesn't seem to be doing them much good at all.

--
Spike

On 23/12/2020 11:19, T i m wrote:

If you weren't brought up in a culture where animals
were seen as food, what would make you think they were edible?

The fact that they get eaten by predators might have something to do
with it.

--
Spike

On 23/12/2020 11:19, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 23 Dec 2020 00:58:33 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:

snip

Give a child an apple and a rabbit and it will play with the rabbit
and eat the apple. If on a desert island and without the conditioning,
at what point do you think it would think to eat the rabbit?


I would have it first, and save the apple for desert...

snip

Would you though? If you weren't brought up in a culture where animals
were seen as food, what would make you think they were edible?

Probably when your family were starving.

With no fire (knowledge of or the means to make one), how would you
process it to even make it consumable?

That is the point, man discovered fire.

This is my point, if 'most people' see an injured animal or one in
distress they will generally do all they can to help.

A short-sighter approach. In many instances it would be more kind to
instantly end the suffering.

Releasing it
from being caught and / or taking it to a vet / rescue to ensure it
gets treatment (as we did recently with a goose with a leg that was
about to drop off because of fishing line).

Only by someone who is trying to make a pointless point. Given your
history of a uncaring attitude towards animal welfare this is doubtful.

The cognitive dissonance would be after rescuing said animal, people
would go and tuck into the remains of another animal that would have
suffered at some point?

You may well suffer cognitive dissonance, as I'm sure you do every time
you feed your dogs a cruel diet.

Animals who wouldn't generally be here (or exist as a sub species)
*naturally*, they are only here because of *artificial* insemination.

Farmed Turkeys are probably not alone in being a farmed animal (even
the terms now disgusts me) unable to breed naturally, because of how
much we have mutated them for our own needs.

So, killing anything should only ever be done out of necessity, kill
of be killed, self defence (when that is the only assured solution),
... or survival and the latter doesn't apply to the vast majority re
animals and food in 2020.

Quite, if you deem it necessary to have a natural balanced diet then
meat products are a necessity.

On 21/12/2020 15:09, T i m wrote:
On Mon, 21 Dec 2020 14:44:12 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

snip

Or all the animals stuck in lorries queuing at Dover. Maybe it doesn't
matter as they were going to 'die anyway'. ;-(

Are there any?

Pass. I thought (hoped) it was going to be banned 'when' we leave the
EU but I'm not sure when if / when that's going to happen re
'everything'.

So a Brexit supporter.

Live export mainly goes through Ramsgate and not all
live exports are for slaughter, some are for fattening.

Ah, that's ok then, fattening to be then set free to live out their
natural lives?

Why? In nature the life expectancy of most animals is very short. Look
at pigs. How many litters, and how many piglets, would a sou have in her
lifetime?

You are aware to maintain numbers only one is required to live to maturity.

Everything
living dies, it's one of the very few absolute guarantees of life.

Sure, but hopefully after a long and natural life, not as a child (as
most animals killed for their flesh are very young and getting younger
(with foods and drugs) as that's better for profits).

Lives were typically naturally very short.

On Tue, 22 Dec 2020 19:19:27 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 22/12/2020 19:06, R Souls wrote:
On Mon, 21 Dec 2020 16:26:37 +0000, Cursitor Doom
wrote:

On Mon, 21 Dec 2020 11:16:03 +0000, "Jim Stewart ..."
wrote:

On 21/12/2020 08:53, Stephen Cole wrote:
jim.gm4dhj wrote:
Shortages and rationing coming our way.....panic buy now ! ..... this
time we need to ...... I've done mine freezers are full ..... this is
the big one.....

Sunlit uplands!

There’s definitely some kind of cosmic justice going on here, that a
pandemic is running wild on us just as we’re severing the secure links we
spent decades building with our neighbours. Still, blue passports, eh?

Looking forward to seeing Kent gridlocked from about this afternoon when
people start hitting the supermarkets in a panic for Christmas food and bog
roll.

brian is about to get a preview of a no deal brexit...tee hee

Bring it on. We're not scared. The BEST deal is NO DEAL.

It's all very well for you foreigners to say that. Unlike we Brits you
won't have to endure the impending train crash that brexit will be.

Im a brit. I live here.
I will be delighted with a no deal exit.
You will be surprised at events if you actually open your eyes, but I
suspect you will keep them tight shut.
There is a limit to how far the 27 will let the EU cut *their* noses off
to spite *Britain's* face.
Remember, Europe is realising that people in the Union may suffer, but
never the people who have usurped authority. The unsackable Brussels
bureaucrats and their gold plated pensions.

They are currently tolerated, but for how much longer?

Still speaking up for your bum-buddy then?

Let the despicable little **** speak for itself.

On Tue, 22 Dec 2020 16:00:36 +0000, Max Demian
wrote:

On 22/12/2020 11:05, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Max Demian wrote:
The EU aren't accepting that. I suppose that they are just exercising
their sovereignty. Now, who'd have expected that, eh?

They have no sovereignty. Only countries can have that.

So explain how we have taken back sovereignty?

We haven't. We've recovered it. It's control we (hope to) take back.

Really? That's brilliant news!!

Now, where can I get my bit of sovereignty, how much will it cost and
will it fit in the boot of my car?

On 23/12/2020 00:58, John Rumm wrote:
On 21/12/2020 23:42, T i m wrote:
On Mon, 21 Dec 2020 20:56:04 +0000, alan_m
wrote:

On 21/12/2020 20:42, T i m wrote:
On Mon, 21 Dec 2020 20:28:08 +0000, williamwright
wrote:

On 21/12/2020 14:44, Dave Liquorice wrote:

Are there any? Live export mainly goes through Ramsgate and not all
live exports are for slaughter, some are for fattening. Everything
living dies, it's one of the very few absolute guarantees of life.


Yes but we shouldn't allow unnecessary suffering. We have a moral duty
to take care of all animals.


Ok, jokes over, what have you done with Bill? ;-(


He's turned Vegan.

The irony of course is 'most people' are vegan (in their principals re
cruelty towards animals) they are just conditioned ... normalised to
switch that compassion off when it comes to some animals that others
have told them aren't sentient creatures that share many of the same
needs, desires and sensations as us but are just there to be food?

Give a child an apple and a rabbit and it will play with the rabbit
and eat the apple. If on a desert island and without the conditioning,
at what point do you think it would think to eat the rabbit?


I would have it first, and save the apple for desert...

Not to mention many days of sustenance from the rabbit, with a nice high
nutrient density (one of the highest percentages of protein of all
meats). Lean but also rich in B3 and B12. Stays fresh for extended
periods without refrigeration as well. And when you are done, some nice
fur mitts to keep you hands warm. The less palatable bits can be used
for fishing bait. There is very little wasted in a rabbit.

If you have some breading rabbits, even better - they reproduce fast and
help harvest nutrients from the flora of the island without needing
organised agriculture. They are easy to keep and survive in a good range
of temperatures.

As a bonus you get 4 lucky rabbit feet per rabbit... (although its fair
to say at that point they did not work so well for bunnykins).


Ossies do big bunnies

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6320821.stm

On 23/12/2020 11:19, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 23 Dec 2020 00:58:33 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:

snip

Give a child an apple and a rabbit and it will play with the rabbit
and eat the apple. If on a desert island and without the conditioning,
at what point do you think it would think to eat the rabbit?


I would have it first, and save the apple for desert...

snip

Would you though? If you weren't brought up in a culture where animals
were seen as food, what would make you think they were edible?

One would presumably watch all the other animals chowing down on
critters lower in the food chain, and think "hmmm, maybe there is
something in that!"

All the early hominid hunter gatherers managed to figure it out ok (and
chances are we would not be here to even have this discussion had they not!)

With no fire (knowledge of or the means to make one), how would you
process it to even make it consumable?

Does fire not work on your desert island?

This is my point, if 'most people' see an injured animal or one in
distress they will generally do all they can to help.

Or put it out of its misery (depending on the severity of injury).

At which point, I can't see how even a vegan could with clear conscience
object to eating it. The death was premature, but at least it can
still help support life afterwards rather than go to waste.

Releasing it
from being caught and / or taking it to a vet / rescue to ensure it
gets treatment (as we did recently with a goose with a leg that was
about to drop off because of fishing line).

The cognitive dissonance would be after rescuing said animal, people
would go and tuck into the remains of another animal that would have
suffered at some point?

I don't require any cognitive dissonance, since I don't consider rearing
an animal for food production to be cruel or to necessarily cause it
suffering[1].

We are giving it a more comfortable (if shorter) existence than it would
likely have "in the wild" with its food and medial needs attended to,
and then a swift and hopefully painless death at the end.

I appreciate that you don't see it that way, but we will have to agree
to differ.

[1] I am not claiming that animal cruelty never happens - although from
what I have observed, well regulated professional farmers are highly
unlikely as a group to mistreat their animals.

Animals who wouldn't generally be here (or exist as a sub species)
*naturally*, they are only here because of *artificial* insemination.

I think you will find many males of various species will take any
opportunity to get jiggy with the girls given a chance!

(in fact man is the only species that can choose not to reproduce)

Farmed Turkeys are probably not alone in being a farmed animal (even
the terms now disgusts me) unable to breed naturally, because of how
much we have mutated them for our own needs.

So, killing anything should only ever be done out of necessity, kill
of be killed, self defence (when that is the only assured solution),
... or survival and the latter doesn't apply to the vast majority re
animals and food in 2020.

This (98 year old) sums most of it up:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FX58PyQwrcI

I get though why you would try to defend the idea of seeing (a
restricted sub set of all species of) animals as food, because that's
both how you were brought up and you say you have relatives who earn
their livelihoods off the exploitation of other creatures (as I and
millions of others would see it).

I have relatives who are (well were - retired now) farmers. They always
took great pride in the care of their dairy herds. Oh, and my
Grandfather was a master butcher with a chain of shops in the east end :-)


--
Cheers,

John.

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