I'm provoked to post this after the thread about whether people DIY or
not anymore.
I've been wondering for some time, in particular WRT my own kids (both
men now in their 20s) if their lives have been so much easier that
necessity has *not* bred any variant of invention.
They are so needy and incapable that I had occasionally wondered if they
were on some spectrum or other but I speak to other people my age and it
sounds par.

I've a tome of anecdotes but i'll stick to a couple.

We had* 2 bagless vacuum cleaners at work (me, son, apprentice), one
upstairs, one down. I noted one day that both were downstairs, so I
asked why. The response was that one of them wasn't sucking.
Later I noted that neither had been used in a while, the place was
untidy, apparently now neither were sucking.
So I went off one one about how i'm not the ####ing caretaker, vacuum
cleaners aren't ####ing rocket science and demanded they check for
blockages and if necessary clean the filters.
Neither knew that vacuum cleaners had filters (why would they) so on my
instruction the apprentice washed the filters and put them back in.
He put them in WET and proceeded to use it.

*One has since died, hardly surprising.

Recently, a machine at work is leaking polish on the floor.
I'm ignoring the problem to see what the son will do about it.
Then I prompt.. "why is it leaking", "where is it leaking from" etc. and
finally have to intervene when the best he can come up is to mop up the
leakage from the floor with a face like an injured puppy.
(It's about 30 quid per gallon)

This isn't merely a rant, i'm genuinely fearful for the future.

On 02/03/2020 16:44, R D S wrote:
I'm provoked to post this after the thread about whether people DIY or
not anymore.
I've been wondering for some time, in particular WRT my own kids (both
men now in their 20s) if their lives have been so much easier that
necessity has *not* bred any variant of invention.
They are so needy and incapable that I had occasionally wondered if they
were on some spectrum or other but I speak to other people my age and it
sounds par.

I've a tome of anecdotes but i'll stick to a couple.

We had* 2 bagless vacuum cleaners at work (me, son, apprentice), one
upstairs, one down. I noted one day that both were downstairs, so I
asked why. The response was that one of them wasn't sucking.
Later I noted that neither had been used in a while, the place was
untidy, apparently now neither were sucking.
So I went off one one about how i'm not the ####ing caretaker, vacuum
cleaners aren't ####ing rocket science and demanded they check for
blockages and if necessary clean the filters.
Neither knew that vacuum cleaners had filters (why would they) so on my
instruction the apprentice washed the filters and put them back in.
He put them in WET and proceeded to use it.

*One has since died, hardly surprising.

Recently, a machine at work is leaking polish on the floor.
I'm ignoring the problem to see what the son will do about it.
Then I prompt.. "why is it leaking", "where is it leaking from" etc. and
finally have to intervene when the best he can come up is to mop up the
leakage from the floor with a face like an injured puppy.
(It's about 30 quid per gallon)

This isn't merely a rant, i'm genuinely fearful for the future.

Mine are all cyclists (even the girl) and that keeps them practical.

You are not alone and I, too, am worried for our future.

Its wider than the Millennials (although they are worst); in our road I appear to be the only one who lifts a car bonnet and definitely the only one who uses car ramps. I get looks of disbelief as dog walkers walk past and I'm under my car.

A friend, a GasSafe engineer, summed it up nicely saying in the past he'd explain what he'd done to fix their central heating but he doesn't bother now because many don't know what a boiler is, or want to know, frightening really.

Teachers should replace 'Meja' studies with Meccano and how to bodge electrical appliances with insulating tape.

On 02/03/2020 17:31, simon mitchelmore wrote:

Teachers should replace 'Meja' studies with Meccano and how to bodge electrical appliances with insulating tape.


There's something of a catchphrase in our place,
"Hey Dad, good if [broken appliance/machine] was working wouldn't it?"

"Fix it then", I'll suggest, to be told, "I don't know how", like *I*
was somehow born with all the answers. I feel like I was a better
influence as they were growing up but people of that age are all just
sort of broken.

On Mon, 2 Mar 2020 16:44:10 +0000, R D S wrote:

I'm provoked to post this after the thread about whether people DIY or
not anymore.
I've been wondering for some time, in particular WRT my own kids (both
men now in their 20s) if their lives have been so much easier that
necessity has *not* bred any variant of invention.

They are so needy and incapable that I had occasionally wondered if they
were on some spectrum or other but I speak to other people my age and it
sounds par.

snip

63 here with a 39 year old daughter so not sure if we are in the same
category.

When daughter was young I would encourage her to 'help' in whatever I
was doing and if she wanted to, learn how to do it herself. The first
example of that was her soldering up a Vellerman LED xmas tree project
when she was about 6. ;-)

'We' made her dolls house after that (daughter was happy using the
vibro saw) and she had a go in the workshop on the pillar drill
helping me make a bench or welding and angle grinding etc.

Oversize gloves, goggles and other PPE didn't make it any easier for
her but she generally did well (she joined some scraps together with
my MIG welder and put her initial on the front better than I could
have!).

When an elderly family friend needed some decorating doing, daughter
and I did it and from that, daughter recently decorate her own flat
(and very nicely I'm pleased to say. Good prep, good coverage, neat
cutting in / masking).

She also does most of the straightforward jobs on her own vehicles,
assuming you consider changing the alternator overrun clutch on her
Transit Connect or the rear springs on her Corsa straightforward. ;-)

She also serviced her Suzuki 600 Bandit and stripped the carbs off and
down to clean them.

Now to be fair, she does most of that under (my) supervision because
1) she still learning and 2) mistakes can be expensive but the point
is that she does them.

That said, she also mentioned the other day that the Dyson she bought
us, borrowed and hasn't given back, wasn't working properly the other
(pulsing intermittently) and TBF she had cleaned the canister, removed
the roller and de-haired that, but 1) (as you say) didn't know there
was a washable filter hidden in the man body and then 2) didn't think
to look between the main intake and the canister to see if there was
still stuff blocking the airways.

I guess part of the issue is that 1) I am still about and so would she
have tried harder if 2) it was her own stuff (not wanting to risk
breaking something that wasn't hers).

She used to maintain her own chainsaws but was taught that at Arb
College.

So I think it's a mix of need, opportunity (to learn / be taught / be
mentored), things being much cheaper and so more disposable than they
were (cost / disposable income) and things being more reliable but
less repairable than they once were (but I thought there was talk of
that changing)?

The good thing is that her first thought is 'can it be fixed' (by her
then me / us), not just throwing it away and just buying a new one.

Cheers, T i m

p.s. She was also sponsored by an RC Model Car magazine when she was
racing 12th scale RC saloon cars. Whilst she did initially build her
cars, 'Dad' did most of the pit work / tuning. But then I seemed to be
doing that for half the younger drivers that turned up there ... just
dumped off by their parents and with little in the way of spares or
tools. ;-(

The guys that ran the club used to point them towards me ... 'If you
take these spares you have just bought over to that man over there and
ask him nicely, he may fit them for you ...!' (and of course I did).
;-)

On 02/03/2020 16:44, R D S wrote:
I'm provoked to post this after the thread about whether people DIY or
not anymore.
I've been wondering for some time, in particular WRT my own kids (both
men now in their 20s) if their lives have been so much easier that
necessity has *not* bred any variant of invention.
They are so needy and incapable that I had occasionally wondered if they
were on some spectrum or other but I speak to other people my age and it
sounds par.

Blame the advertising industry. Capitalism at its best.

Breed more helpless children so that they can become just consumers, to
line the pockets of the decreasing few.

Promote sex, money & Rock 'n' roll. Damn everything else

--
Adrian C

In article ,
R D S wrote:
On 02/03/2020 17:31, simon mitchelmore wrote:

Teachers should replace 'Meja' studies with Meccano and how to bodge electrical appliances with insulating tape.


There's something of a catchphrase in our place,
"Hey Dad, good if [broken appliance/machine] was working wouldn't it?"

"Fix it then", I'll suggest, to be told, "I don't know how", like *I*
was somehow born with all the answers. I feel like I was a better
influence as they were growing up but people of that age are all just
sort of broken.

my 4 year old grandson used to say "Grandpa will mend it". He doesn't need
to any more since he now has a step-dad who it more than capable.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

"R D S" wrote in message
...
I'm provoked to post this after the thread about whether people DIY or not
anymore.
I've been wondering for some time, in particular WRT my own kids (both men
now in their 20s) if their lives have been so much easier that necessity
has *not* bred any variant of invention.
They are so needy and incapable that I had occasionally wondered if they
were on some spectrum or other but I speak to other people my age and it
sounds par.

I've a tome of anecdotes but i'll stick to a couple.

We had* 2 bagless vacuum cleaners at work (me, son, apprentice), one
upstairs, one down. I noted one day that both were downstairs, so I asked
why. The response was that one of them wasn't sucking.
Later I noted that neither had been used in a while, the place was untidy,
apparently now neither were sucking.
So I went off one one about how i'm not the ####ing caretaker, vacuum
cleaners aren't ####ing rocket science and demanded they check for
blockages and if necessary clean the filters.
Neither knew that vacuum cleaners had filters (why would they) so on my
instruction the apprentice washed the filters and put them back in.
He put them in WET and proceeded to use it.

*One has since died, hardly surprising.

There were always some that mechanically incompetent
and with your son, it was your fault that you and your
wife never bothered to explain to him how vacs work.

Mine had me doing all sorts of things from cooking to
knitting jumpers to the sorts of basic stuff like changing
the length of the jeans etc as required when new.

I did all the appliance repair stuff myself as a kid
and learned all that for myself, the parents didnt
know anything about that stuff.

They did quite a bit of reno of older houses but never
designed and built a house from scratch like I did.

Recently, a machine at work is leaking polish on the floor.
I'm ignoring the problem to see what the son will do about it.
Then I prompt.. "why is it leaking", "where is it leaking from" etc. and
finally have to intervene when the best he can come up is to mop up the
leakage from the floor with a face like an injured puppy.
(It's about 30 quid per gallon)

This isn't merely a rant, i'm genuinely fearful for the future.

I'm not now that it makes more sense to replace
most stuff except cars and houses when it breaks.

And some of the neighbours kids that I have known
since they were little preschool kids are now very
competent mechanics etc.

In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
I'd say cars are too complex to do much of that any more. I used to
tinker with my Mini 50 years ago and mostly made a mess of it, so I
gave up. Can you even buy workshop manuals for today's cars? Don't you
need a computer to check everything? The garage will have one but
would the right kit be available to an end-user?

It suits many to think they need a computer to work on a car these days.
So are happy to pay a garage to fit new brakes etc that if anything is
easier than years ago.

--
*Honk if you love peace and quiet.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Monday, 2 March 2020 18:11:22 UTC, Adrian Caspersz wrote:
On 02/03/2020 16:44, R D S wrote:
I'm provoked to post this after the thread about whether people DIY or
not anymore.
I've been wondering for some time, in particular WRT my own kids (both
men now in their 20s) if their lives have been so much easier that
necessity has *not* bred any variant of invention.
They are so needy and incapable that I had occasionally wondered if they
were on some spectrum or other but I speak to other people my age and it
sounds par.

Blame the advertising industry. Capitalism at its best.

Breed more helpless children so that they can become just consumers, to
line the pockets of the decreasing few.

Promote sex, money & Rock 'n' roll. Damn everything else

And the borrowing.

On Tue, 3 Mar 2020 06:01:12 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH senile asshole's troll****

06:10, you brain dead idiot??? LOL

--
Bill Wright to Rot Speed:
"That confirms my opinion that you are a despicable little ****."
MID:

simon mitchelmore wrote

You are not alone and I, too, am worried for our future.

I'm not.

Its wider than the Millennials (although they are worst);
in our road I appear to be the only one who lifts a car
bonnet and definitely the only one who uses car ramps.

I'm not. At least 5 in my street.

I get looks of disbelief as dog walkers walk past and I'm under my car.

I dont. The most I get is a few I know ask if I need a hand.

And does it really matter if most pay someone to do the minimal
that needs doing today, just change the oil and filter etc ?

Sure, some will just drive it into the ground and kill it when
they dont even realise that anything needs to be done but
that hardly the end of civilisation as we know it.

A friend, a GasSafe engineer, summed it up nicely saying
in the past he'd explain what he'd done to fix their central
heating but he doesn't bother now because many don't
know what a boiler is, or want to know, frightening really.

Whats frightening about choosing to pay someone
to fix it if it stops heating the house etc ?

Teachers should replace 'Meja' studies with Meccano and
how to bodge electrical appliances with insulating tape.

Makes more sense to just buy a new appliance now.
While I can fix anything, it makes no sense toasters etc.

"R D S" wrote in message
...
On 02/03/2020 17:31, simon mitchelmore wrote:

Teachers should replace 'Meja' studies with Meccano and how to bodge
electrical appliances with insulating tape.


There's something of a catchphrase in our place,
"Hey Dad, good if [broken appliance/machine] was working wouldn't it?"

"Fix it then", I'll suggest, to be told, "I don't know how", like *I* was
somehow born with all the answers. I feel like I was a better influence as
they were growing up but people of that age are all just sort of broken.

No they arent. Some of the ones I know are quite capable of doing
what you did at their age.

"Adrian Caspersz" wrote in message
...
On 02/03/2020 16:44, R D S wrote:
I'm provoked to post this after the thread about whether people DIY or
not anymore.
I've been wondering for some time, in particular WRT my own kids (both
men now in their 20s) if their lives have been so much easier that
necessity has *not* bred any variant of invention.
They are so needy and incapable that I had occasionally wondered if they
were on some spectrum or other but I speak to other people my age and it
sounds par.

Blame the advertising industry.

Its actually due to the much higher standard of living and
the cost of appliances being much lower in real terms.

Capitalism at its best.

With the much lower cost of appliances, yep.

Breed more helpless children

Not even possible to do that and it isnt breeding
its what their parents do bringing up wise.

so that they can become just consumers, to line the pockets of the
decreasing few.

It isnt in fact a decreasing few either. Now that
almost everyone has their pensions invested in
the operations that are selling the stuff to
consumers, its all but those with no jobs now.

Promote sex, money & Rock 'n' roll. Damn everything else

--
Adrian C

On 02/03/2020 16:44, R D S wrote:
I'm provoked to post this after the thread about whether people DIY or
not anymore.
I've been wondering for some time, in particular WRT my own kids (both
men now in their 20s) if their lives have been so much easier that
necessity has *not* bred any variant of invention.
They are so needy and incapable that I had occasionally wondered if they
were on some spectrum or other but I speak to other people my age and it
sounds par.

I've a tome of anecdotes but i'll stick to a couple.

We had* 2 bagless vacuum cleaners at work (me, son, apprentice), one
upstairs, one down. I noted one day that both were downstairs, so I
asked why. The response was that one of them wasn't sucking.
Later I noted that neither had been used in a while, the place was
untidy, apparently now neither were sucking.
So I went off one one about how i'm not the ####ing caretaker, vacuum
cleaners aren't ####ing rocket science and demanded they check for
blockages and if necessary clean the filters.
Neither knew that vacuum cleaners had filters (why would they) so on my
instruction the apprentice washed the filters and put them back in.
He put them in WET and proceeded to use it.

*One has since died, hardly surprising.

Recently, a machine at work is leaking polish on the floor.
I'm ignoring the problem to see what the son will do about it.
Then I prompt.. "why is it leaking", "where is it leaking from" etc. and
finally have to intervene when the best he can come up is to mop up the
leakage from the floor with a face like an injured puppy.
(It's about 30 quid per gallon)

This isn't merely a rant, i'm genuinely fearful for the future.


If you say anything does she defend them?

--
Adam

"Tim Streater" wrote in message
.. .
In article ,
simon mitchelmore wrote:

You are not alone and I, too, am worried for our future.

Its wider than the Millennials (although they are worst); in our road I
appear
to be the only one who lifts a car bonnet and definitely the only one who
uses
car ramps. I get looks of disbelief as dog walkers walk past and I'm under
my
car.

I'd say cars are too complex to do much of that any more.

You'd be wrong. Its actually much easier now when
the OBD2 tells you which sensor has failed and the
maintenance manual tells you how to change it.

I used to
tinker with my Mini 50 years ago and mostly made a mess of it, so I
gave up. Can you even buy workshop manuals for today's cars?

Yep, and get them for free too.

Don't you
need a computer to check everything?

Nope, just a dirt cheap OBD2 thing now.

The garage will have one but
would the right kit be available to an end-user?

Yep, for peanuts too.

A friend, a GasSafe engineer, summed it up nicely saying in the past he'd
explain what he'd done to fix their central heating but he doesn't bother
now
because many don't know what a boiler is, or want to know, frightening
really.

Teachers should replace 'Meja' studies with Meccano and how to bodge
electrical appliances with insulating tape.

Certainly Meccano, but in my case it was more my brother (then in the
Navy) bringing back some surplus kit like soldering iron and solder,
relays, small lead-acid accumulators, etc. Then I found our old 3-valve
Ministry of Supply wartime radio in the loft and, by soldering a grid
wire back on, and replacing the broken selenium (?) diode with an OA81,
managed to get that working again, enough to listen to Radio Luxembourg
anyway.

--
The truth of the matter is that we Scots have always been more divided
amongst
ourselves than pitted against the English. Scottish history before the
Union of
Parliaments is a gloomy, violent tale of murders, feuds, and tribal
revenge.
Only after the Act of Union did Highlanders and Lowlanders, Picts and
Celts,
begin to recognise one another as fellow citizens.

Tam Dalyell

On Monday, 2 March 2020 19:04:56 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:

I'd say cars are too complex to do much of that any more. I used to

not a bit

tinker with my Mini 50 years ago and mostly made a mess of it, so I
gave up. Can you even buy workshop manuals for today's cars?

yes

Don't you
need a computer to check everything? The garage will have one but
would the right kit be available to an end-user?

OBDII readers are cheap

It suits many to think they need a computer to work on a car these days.
So are happy to pay a garage to fit new brakes etc that if anything is
easier than years ago.

Cars have gotten a lot faster to assemble, making them cheaper to buy & quicker to service/repair in many respects - not all. Even with engine stuff when it needs OBDII reading, having an almost diagnosis as easy as plugging something in really helps.


NT

On Monday, 2 March 2020 16:44:13 UTC, R D S wrote:

I'm provoked to post this after the thread about whether people DIY or
not anymore.
I've been wondering for some time, in particular WRT my own kids (both
men now in their 20s) if their lives have been so much easier that
necessity has *not* bred any variant of invention.
They are so needy and incapable that I had occasionally wondered if they
were on some spectrum or other but I speak to other people my age and it
sounds par.

I've a tome of anecdotes but i'll stick to a couple.

We had* 2 bagless vacuum cleaners at work (me, son, apprentice), one
upstairs, one down. I noted one day that both were downstairs, so I
asked why. The response was that one of them wasn't sucking.
Later I noted that neither had been used in a while, the place was
untidy, apparently now neither were sucking.
So I went off one one about how i'm not the ####ing caretaker, vacuum
cleaners aren't ####ing rocket science and demanded they check for
blockages and if necessary clean the filters.
Neither knew that vacuum cleaners had filters (why would they) so on my
instruction the apprentice washed the filters and put them back in.
He put them in WET and proceeded to use it.

*One has since died, hardly surprising.

Recently, a machine at work is leaking polish on the floor.
I'm ignoring the problem to see what the son will do about it.
Then I prompt.. "why is it leaking", "where is it leaking from" etc. and
finally have to intervene when the best he can come up is to mop up the
leakage from the floor with a face like an injured puppy.
(It's about 30 quid per gallon)

This isn't merely a rant, i'm genuinely fearful for the future.


It's scary. Why's it happening? I think there are 2 main reasons.

1. Delusions of celebrityhood are expected of kids today. Getting your hands even vaguely dirty doing something practical is much looked down on. That belief is too often ingrained even in the minority of kids that do practical things. My response to that is 'who do you think has a better life, those that act to solve their problems or those that don't?'

2. We learnt a lot of stuff because we didn't have the money to just buy one that works. That's mostly no longer the case.


NT

On Tue, 3 Mar 2020 06:16:43 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH senile cretin's latest troll****

06:16??? LOL IOW, you are SO miserable you can't even hide what's the matter
with you, you disgusting trolling piece of senile ****! LOL

--
Website (from 2007) dedicated to the 86-year-old trolling senile
cretin from Oz:
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/r...d-faq.2973853/

On Tue, 3 Mar 2020 06:45:50 +1100, John_j, better known as cantankerous
trolling senile geezer Rodent Speed, wrote:

FLUSH senile asshole's troll****

06:45 already??? AGAIN? LOL

--
The Natural Philosopher about nym-shifting senile Rodent.
"Rod speed is not a Brexiteer. He is an Australian troll and arsehole."
Message-ID:

On Tue, 3 Mar 2020 06:14:26 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH troll****

06:14??? LOL EVERY night the same story with you, eh, you clinically insane
sleepless senile asshole from Oz? LOL

--
about senile Rot Speed:
"This is like having a conversation with someone with brain damage."
MID:

On Tue, 3 Mar 2020 06:28:48 +1100, John_j, better known as cantankerous
trolling senile geezer Rodent Speed, wrote:

FLUSH the nym-shifting senile cretin's latest troll****

06:28??? LOL

--
Bill Wright to Rot Speed:
"That confirms my opinion that you are a despicable little ****."
MID:

wrote in message
...
On Monday, 2 March 2020 16:44:13 UTC, R D S wrote:

I'm provoked to post this after the thread about whether people DIY or
not anymore.
I've been wondering for some time, in particular WRT my own kids (both
men now in their 20s) if their lives have been so much easier that
necessity has *not* bred any variant of invention.
They are so needy and incapable that I had occasionally wondered if they
were on some spectrum or other but I speak to other people my age and it
sounds par.

I've a tome of anecdotes but i'll stick to a couple.

We had* 2 bagless vacuum cleaners at work (me, son, apprentice), one
upstairs, one down. I noted one day that both were downstairs, so I
asked why. The response was that one of them wasn't sucking.
Later I noted that neither had been used in a while, the place was
untidy, apparently now neither were sucking.
So I went off one one about how i'm not the ####ing caretaker, vacuum
cleaners aren't ####ing rocket science and demanded they check for
blockages and if necessary clean the filters.
Neither knew that vacuum cleaners had filters (why would they) so on my
instruction the apprentice washed the filters and put them back in.
He put them in WET and proceeded to use it.

*One has since died, hardly surprising.

Recently, a machine at work is leaking polish on the floor.
I'm ignoring the problem to see what the son will do about it.
Then I prompt.. "why is it leaking", "where is it leaking from" etc. and
finally have to intervene when the best he can come up is to mop up the
leakage from the floor with a face like an injured puppy.
(It's about 30 quid per gallon)

This isn't merely a rant, i'm genuinely fearful for the future.

It's scary.

Nope.

Why's it happening? I think there are 2 main reasons.

1. Delusions of celebrityhood are expected of kids today.

Bull****.

Getting your hands even vaguely dirty doing
something practical is much looked down on.

It always was by some fools.

That belief is too often ingrained even in
the minority of kids that do practical things.

Bull****.

My response to that is 'who do you think has a better life,
those that act to solve their problems or those that don't?'

Thats a bogus question.

2. We learnt a lot of stuff because we didn't
have the money to just buy one that works.
That's mostly no longer the case.

True. And it doesnt make any sense to
be fixing the cheaper appliances anymore.

Yes me too, I'd have thought in this age the answer was as close as youtube,
indeed there is a story in the news today about a person who built his own
house from videos on that site

One thing I did find however is that all those who went to University are
considerably worse at thinking problems out logically than we were. I never
went, it was not the thing in my day. However I did not turn out bad, I can
and did hang doors clean vacuums, build cabinets, make electronic circuits
an write computer code. It is not rocket science, what it is is thinking
things through and checking things, its making mistakes and learning from
those mistakes, not simply throwing stuff in the bin if it won't work. I
mean surely it soul d be obvious that water and electricity do not sit well
together?
Likewise leaks have a source, and normally there is a way to find it.
To me its common sense, but even in the 80s when I was working they sent me
the graduates to learn a bit of logical thinking and what we call common
sense.
For example a guy with a degree in electronics could not logically divide
the circuit up and see what each bit did and deduce where to start looking
for the problem and not to just change bits till it worked when half the
stuff was ok in the first place.
I'm also pretty sure that the current academic loads on nurse training is
putting of those who traditionally wanted to be a nurse, its too academic
and not enough hands on.
Sorry for the rant.
Brian
--
----- --
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"R D S" wrote in message
...
I'm provoked to post this after the thread about whether people DIY or not
anymore.
I've been wondering for some time, in particular WRT my own kids (both men
now in their 20s) if their lives have been so much easier that necessity
has *not* bred any variant of invention.
They are so needy and incapable that I had occasionally wondered if they
were on some spectrum or other but I speak to other people my age and it
sounds par.

I've a tome of anecdotes but i'll stick to a couple.

We had* 2 bagless vacuum cleaners at work (me, son, apprentice), one
upstairs, one down. I noted one day that both were downstairs, so I asked
why. The response was that one of them wasn't sucking.
Later I noted that neither had been used in a while, the place was untidy,
apparently now neither were sucking.
So I went off one one about how i'm not the ####ing caretaker, vacuum
cleaners aren't ####ing rocket science and demanded they check for
blockages and if necessary clean the filters.
Neither knew that vacuum cleaners had filters (why would they) so on my
instruction the apprentice washed the filters and put them back in.
He put them in WET and proceeded to use it.

*One has since died, hardly surprising.

Recently, a machine at work is leaking polish on the floor.
I'm ignoring the problem to see what the son will do about it.
Then I prompt.. "why is it leaking", "where is it leaking from" etc. and
finally have to intervene when the best he can come up is to mop up the
leakage from the floor with a face like an injured puppy.
(It's about 30 quid per gallon)

This isn't merely a rant, i'm genuinely fearful for the future.

Oh here you should see the queue when Dr Bike sessions visit the town
centre, What are the problems? Brakes, chain comes off etc. Blimey.
Brian

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"newshound" wrote in message
news
On 02/03/2020 16:44, R D S wrote:
I'm provoked to post this after the thread about whether people DIY or
not anymore.
I've been wondering for some time, in particular WRT my own kids (both
men now in their 20s) if their lives have been so much easier that
necessity has *not* bred any variant of invention.
They are so needy and incapable that I had occasionally wondered if they
were on some spectrum or other but I speak to other people my age and it
sounds par.

I've a tome of anecdotes but i'll stick to a couple.

We had* 2 bagless vacuum cleaners at work (me, son, apprentice), one
upstairs, one down. I noted one day that both were downstairs, so I asked
why. The response was that one of them wasn't sucking.
Later I noted that neither had been used in a while, the place was
untidy, apparently now neither were sucking.
So I went off one one about how i'm not the ####ing caretaker, vacuum
cleaners aren't ####ing rocket science and demanded they check for
blockages and if necessary clean the filters.
Neither knew that vacuum cleaners had filters (why would they) so on my
instruction the apprentice washed the filters and put them back in.
He put them in WET and proceeded to use it.

*One has since died, hardly surprising.

Recently, a machine at work is leaking polish on the floor.
I'm ignoring the problem to see what the son will do about it.
Then I prompt.. "why is it leaking", "where is it leaking from" etc. and
finally have to intervene when the best he can come up is to mop up the
leakage from the floor with a face like an injured puppy.
(It's about 30 quid per gallon)

This isn't merely a rant, i'm genuinely fearful for the future.

Mine are all cyclists (even the girl) and that keeps them practical.

Yes my old Rogers Amp is still working due to me bodging the volume mounted
mains switch with tape and evo stick.
Brian

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"simon mitchelmore" wrote in message
...
You are not alone and I, too, am worried for our future.

Its wider than the Millennials (although they are worst); in our road I
appear to be the only one who lifts a car bonnet and definitely the only
one who uses car ramps. I get looks of disbelief as dog walkers walk past
and I'm under my car.

A friend, a GasSafe engineer, summed it up nicely saying in the past he'd
explain what he'd done to fix their central heating but he doesn't bother
now because many don't know what a boiler is, or want to know, frightening
really.

Teachers should replace 'Meja' studies with Meccano and how to bodge
electrical appliances with insulating tape.

Did they ever have practical hobbies? I flew and built model planes and
boats.
I'm sure you do your best learning when its fun, and I was always inside
electrical stuff. As long as you always keep one hand in your pocket you
will just get a moments pain.
Brian

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"R D S" wrote in message
...
On 02/03/2020 17:31, simon mitchelmore wrote:

Teachers should replace 'Meja' studies with Meccano and how to bodge
electrical appliances with insulating tape.


There's something of a catchphrase in our place,
"Hey Dad, good if [broken appliance/machine] was working wouldn't it?"

"Fix it then", I'll suggest, to be told, "I don't know how", like *I* was
somehow born with all the answers. I feel like I was a better influence as
they were growing up but people of that age are all just sort of broken.

I built a door closer using left over meccano after I lost my sight.
Everyone thinks its great, but why don't they understand its simple
principle? I think Meccano was a teaching aid as indeed was a kit called
Radionics, both taught me a lot and made it fun.
No teacher involved either.
Brian

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"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...


"R D S" wrote in message
...
On 02/03/2020 17:31, simon mitchelmore wrote:

Teachers should replace 'Meja' studies with Meccano and how to bodge
electrical appliances with insulating tape.


There's something of a catchphrase in our place,
"Hey Dad, good if [broken appliance/machine] was working wouldn't it?"

"Fix it then", I'll suggest, to be told, "I don't know how", like *I* was
somehow born with all the answers. I feel like I was a better influence
as they were growing up but people of that age are all just sort of
broken.

No they arent. Some of the ones I know are quite capable of doing
what you did at their age.

Brian Gaff (Sofa 2) wrote

Yes me too, I'd have thought in this age the answer was as close as
youtube, indeed there is a story in the news today about a person who
built his own house from videos on that site

One thing I did find however is that all those who went to University are
considerably worse at thinking problems out logically than we were.

That’s bull**** with the engineers and doctors etc.

I never went, it was not the thing in my day. However I did not turn out
bad, I can and did hang doors clean vacuums, build cabinets, make
electronic circuits an write computer code. It is not rocket science, what
it is is thinking things through and checking things, its making mistakes
and learning from those mistakes, not simply throwing stuff in the bin if
it won't work. I mean surely it sould be obvious that water and
electricity do not sit well together?

Not to plenty. And I had one of the neighbour
warn me about electrocuting myself when she
got me to fix her battery powered ghetto blaster.

Likewise leaks have a source, and normally there is a way to find it. To
me its common sense,

It isnt for the worst of the technoklutzes.

but even in the 80s when I was working they sent me the graduates to learn
a bit of logical thinking and what we call common sense.

For example a guy with a degree in electronics could not logically divide
the circuit up and see what each bit did and deduce where to start looking
for the problem

Yeah, the PHucker is like that.

and not to just change bits till it worked when half the stuff was ok in
the first place.

I'm also pretty sure that the current academic loads on nurse training is
putting of those who traditionally wanted to be a nurse, its too academic
and not enough hands on.

Sorry for the rant.

"R D S" wrote in message
...
I'm provoked to post this after the thread about whether people DIY or
not anymore.
I've been wondering for some time, in particular WRT my own kids (both
men now in their 20s) if their lives have been so much easier that
necessity has *not* bred any variant of invention.
They are so needy and incapable that I had occasionally wondered if they
were on some spectrum or other but I speak to other people my age and it
sounds par.

I've a tome of anecdotes but i'll stick to a couple.

We had* 2 bagless vacuum cleaners at work (me, son, apprentice), one
upstairs, one down. I noted one day that both were downstairs, so I asked
why. The response was that one of them wasn't sucking.
Later I noted that neither had been used in a while, the place was
untidy, apparently now neither were sucking.
So I went off one one about how i'm not the ####ing caretaker, vacuum
cleaners aren't ####ing rocket science and demanded they check for
blockages and if necessary clean the filters.
Neither knew that vacuum cleaners had filters (why would they) so on my
instruction the apprentice washed the filters and put them back in.
He put them in WET and proceeded to use it.

*One has since died, hardly surprising.

Recently, a machine at work is leaking polish on the floor.
I'm ignoring the problem to see what the son will do about it.
Then I prompt.. "why is it leaking", "where is it leaking from" etc. and
finally have to intervene when the best he can come up is to mop up the
leakage from the floor with a face like an injured puppy.
(It's about 30 quid per gallon)

This isn't merely a rant, i'm genuinely fearful for the future.

Brian Gaff (Sofa 2) wrote

I built a door closer using left over meccano after I lost my sight.
Everyone thinks its great, but why don't they understand its simple
principle?

Few have the ability to do that.

I think Meccano was a teaching aid as indeed was a kit called Radionics,
both taught me a lot and made it fun.
No teacher involved either.

Yeah, some don’t need a teacher for anything.

"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...


"R D S" wrote in message
...
On 02/03/2020 17:31, simon mitchelmore wrote:

Teachers should replace 'Meja' studies with Meccano and how to bodge
electrical appliances with insulating tape.


There's something of a catchphrase in our place,
"Hey Dad, good if [broken appliance/machine] was working wouldn't it?"

"Fix it then", I'll suggest, to be told, "I don't know how", like *I*
was somehow born with all the answers. I feel like I was a better
influence as they were growing up but people of that age are all just
sort of broken.

No they arent. Some of the ones I know are quite capable of doing
what you did at their age.

On Tue, 3 Mar 2020 07:40:37 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH senile cretin's latest troll****

07:40??? LOL You can't even HIDE what's the matter with you, you senile
idiot!

--
about senile Rot Speed:
"This is like having a conversation with someone with brain damage."
MID:

On Tue, 3 Mar 2020 08:23:04 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH senile troll****

08:23??? So, WHY do you have NOBODY to talk to in real life, you
cantankerous senile pest? One just can't imagine why! One really can't! LMAO


--
Website (from 2007) dedicated to the 86-year-old trolling senile
cretin from Oz:
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/r...d-faq.2973853/

On Tue, 3 Mar 2020 08:18:27 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH the trolling senile pest's latest troll****

08:18??? And already OVER FOUR HOURS of trolling! LOL Senile asshole! LOL

--
Norman Wells addressing trolling senile Rodent:
"Ah, the voice of scum speaks."
MID:

T i m wrote:
63 here with a 39 year old daughter so not sure if we are in the same
category.

I'm roughly the same age as your daughter, and a lot of that chimes.
I've been doing DIY (FSVO) since I was six.
Difference is I had nobody to teach me, so I've mostly learnt it myself.

Being in Generation Rent rather hampers the DIY tendencies, but for a long
time I had an absentee landlord who never spent a penny and didn't care, so
I did it myself. The downside was it was never worth investing to do things
properly given you could always be kicked out at 2 months notice, or indeed
fined for changing things. So the DIY was usually minimalist stuff to
keep things going.

Having moved from 30-year-old to 10-year-old cars I don't do as much DIY as
I used to on that front, however it's always difficult when you're working
on the street and don't have anyone to help/tell you you've done it
right/make sure you aren't going to die. So mostly avoid stuff on the
underneath (plus crawling around in the cold is no fun). Previously I did a
carb rebuild and a full underseal, so I can be a slug if I want to be
I have some leaked Toyota dealer software to plug into the OBDII, which
makes fixing stuff on modern cars a lot easier.

Recently bought a house so lots to do in prospect, although not a lot of
free time to do it in

Theo

Tim Streater wrote:
That's good. A lesson that will have broader implications.

Largely, people don't, I suppose. Stuff's not made to be repaired.
Automated construction gets the cost down but makes it more complex to
fix.

Also worth bearing mind that technology progress trains people up to keep
pace with it. Maybe you started with a classic Land Rover and learnt how to
work on it, then moving through a few decades you learn how new things (eg
fuel injection) work. A modern Range Rover is a complicated beast if you've
never worked on a car before but it's much easier to deal with as 'it's just
like the previous gen but with a few changes'.

The same applies to a lot of tech: if you've followed it through the
generations you can keep on top of the progress. And so give someone a
modern boiler and to them it's really just the same as the 1970s lump they
might be familiar with, only with some condensing stuff added, and then
electronic control instead of a mechnical timer, and a piezo instead of a
pilot light. Whereas if you show that to someone who has never seen a
boiler before it's a big pile of pipes and wires.

Theo

"Pamela" wrote in message
...
On 19:20 2 Mar 2020, Tim Streater wrote:

In article wrote:

On 16:44 2 Mar 2020, R D S wrote:


I'm provoked to post this after the thread about whether people DIY or
not anymore. I've been wondering for some time, in particular WRT my
own kids (both men now in their 20s) if their lives have been so much
easier that necessity has *not* bred any variant of invention. They
are so needy and incapable that I had occasionally wondered if they
were on some spectrum or other but I speak to other people my age and
it sounds par.

I've a tome of anecdotes but i'll stick to a couple.

We had* 2 bagless vacuum cleaners at work (me, son, apprentice), one
upstairs, one down. I noted one day that both were downstairs, so I
asked why. The response was that one of them wasn't sucking. Later I
noted that neither had been used in a while, the place was untidy,
apparently now neither were sucking. So I went off one one about how
i'm not the ####ing caretaker, vacuum cleaners aren't ####ing rocket
science and demanded they check for blockages and if necessary clean
the filters. Neither knew that vacuum cleaners had filters (why would
they) so on my instruction the apprentice washed the filters and put
them back in. He put them in WET and proceeded to use it.

*One has since died, hardly surprising.

Recently, a machine at work is leaking polish on the floor. I'm
ignoring the problem to see what the son will do about it. Then I
prompt.. "why is it leaking", "where is it leaking from" etc. and
finally have to intervene when the best he can come up is to mop up
the leakage from the floor with a face like an injured puppy. (It's
about 30 quid per gallon)

This isn't merely a rant, i'm genuinely fearful for the future.

Kids today are definitely less practical.

For example, my nephew used to get a lot of punctures on his bike. (He
thought his knobbly off-road tyres were designed to take the full impact
of going up a sharp kerb and so he cycled going full-on up a kerb.) The
poor lad had no notion whatsoever he should fix the puncture himself,
like boys had done for generation. He demanded it be taken to the bike
shop.

As a matter of interest, what was the outcome there? Lucky not to buckle
the wheel doing that.

I must have been shown how to do it, but I certainly fixed my own -
including the ones caused by my step-mother sticking a pin in the tire.

People implored not to cycle like that but they only later learnt his
thinking. After that, it was easy to show he'd misunderstood what knobbly
tyres were for.

He was helped repair the first few punctures and in the end learned to fix
them himself.

The strange thing was his demand the shop fix it rather than anything
himself. It was like he had no notion people ever fixed such things.

If he didn’t, that was clearly down to his parents.

"Theo" wrote in message
...
T i m wrote:
63 here with a 39 year old daughter so not sure if we are in the same
category.

I'm roughly the same age as your daughter, and a lot of that chimes.
I've been doing DIY (FSVO) since I was six.
Difference is I had nobody to teach me, so I've mostly learnt it myself.

Being in Generation Rent rather hampers the DIY tendencies, but for a long
time I had an absentee landlord who never spent a penny and didn't care,
so
I did it myself. The downside was it was never worth investing to do
things
properly given you could always be kicked out at 2 months notice, or
indeed
fined for changing things. So the DIY was usually minimalist stuff to
keep things going.

Having moved from 30-year-old to 10-year-old cars I don't do as much DIY
as
I used to on that front, however it's always difficult when you're working
on the street and don't have anyone to help/tell you you've done it
right/make sure you aren't going to die.

There is plenty of that on youtube now.

So mostly avoid stuff on the underneath
(plus crawling around in the cold is no fun).

Yeah, but not normally required anymore
if you are careful about what you buy now.

Previously I did a carb rebuild and a full underseal,
so I can be a slug if I want to be

I have some leaked Toyota dealer software to plug into the
OBDII, which makes fixing stuff on modern cars a lot easier.

And the net makes it so much easier to find a cheap replacement now.

Recently bought a house so lots to do in prospect, although not a lot of
free time to do it in

Tim Streater formulated the question :
I'd say cars are too complex to do much of that any more.

They are more complex, but the complexity in many ways helps you
diagnose the problems.

I used to
tinker with my Mini 50 years ago and mostly made a mess of it, so I
gave up.

They never came any simpler, than a mini.

Can you even buy workshop manuals for today's cars?

You can, but the home mechanic manuals skim most of the detail. Full
manufacturers manuals are much more detailed.

Don't you
need a computer to check everything? The garage will have one but
would the right kit be available to an end-user?

For not much money, you can buy diagnostic units - complete stand alone
units, or interfaces and software for a laptop. I have four. The car
basically is able to tell you, or at least provide some clues as to
what ails it. How much simpler can it be made?

On Tue, 3 Mar 2020 11:09:48 +1100, John_j, better known as cantankerous
trolling senile geezer Rodent Speed, wrote:


And the net makes it so much easier to find a cheap replacement now.

The way it makes it easy for clinically insane senile idiots like you to
shift nym in order to escape people's killfiles, you clinically insane
senile idiot?

--
Norman Wells addressing trolling senile Rodent:
"Ah, the voice of scum speaks."
MID:

On 02/03/2020 22:28, Tim Streater wrote:
Largely, people don't, I suppose. Stuff's not made to be repaired.
Automated construction gets the cost down but makes it more complex to
fix.

I not so much automated constriction, as irreversible assembly
techniques being cheaper.

Glue stiff together not screw it.

snap click that cant be unsnapclicked.


--
In a Time of Universal Deceit, Telling the Truth Is a Revolutionary Act.

- George Orwell