With talk of pollution and microplastic, I see paint degenerate particularly
outside, surly much of it is in microscopic flakes and this has been going
on for years.
Brian

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Note this Signature is meaningless.!

In message , "Brian Gaff (Sofa)"
writes
With talk of pollution and microplastic, I see paint degenerate particularly
outside, surly much of it is in microscopic flakes and this has been going
on for years.
Brian

Actually, where do many things go? Rocks become stones, which become
pebbles, which become sand, which becomes microscopic sandy dust and the
inorganic component of soil. How does this differ from the harmful
microscopic grains of degenerated plastic - and, presumably, paint?
--
Ian

On Wed, 22 Jan 2020 08:39:11 +0000, Ian Jackson
wrote:

In message , "Brian Gaff (Sofa)"
writes
With talk of pollution and microplastic, I see paint degenerate particularly
outside, surly much of it is in microscopic flakes and this has been going
on for years.
Brian

Actually, where do many things go? Rocks become stones, which become
pebbles, which become sand, which becomes microscopic sandy dust and the
inorganic component of soil. How does this differ from the harmful
microscopic grains of degenerated plastic - and, presumably, paint?

Because when rocks get washed into the rivers and then to the sea,
they don't float so don't stay in suspension for the fish to eat, or
if they do they are generally very much smaller than the equivalent
plastic partials so may pass though small creatures?

Also, paint flakes may contain lead and may then poison small
creatures?

Cheers, T i m

On 22/01/2020 08:39, Ian Jackson wrote:
In message , "Brian Gaff (Sofa)"
writes
With talk of pollution and microplastic, I see paint degenerate
particularly
outside, surly much of it is in microscopic flakes and this has been
going
on for years.
Brian

Actually, where do many things go? Rocks become stones, which become
pebbles, which become sand, which becomes microscopic sandy dust and the
inorganic component of soil. How does this differ from the harmful
microscopic grains of degenerated plastic - and, presumably, paint?

And biological fauna become oil and flora become coal.

All plastic degrades eventually.


--
€œwhen things get difficult you just have to lie€�

€• Jean Claud Jüncker

On 22/01/2020 10:33, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Wed, 22 Jan 2020 08:39:11 +0000, Ian Jackson
wrote:

In message , "Brian Gaff (Sofa)"
writes
With talk of pollution and microplastic, I see paint degenerate particularly
outside, surly much of it is in microscopic flakes and this has been going
on for years.
Brian

Actually, where do many things go? Rocks become stones, which become
pebbles, which become sand, which becomes microscopic sandy dust and the
inorganic component of soil. How does this differ from the harmful
microscopic grains of degenerated plastic - and, presumably, paint?

While I can understand why large pieces of plastic floating in the sea
can be hazardous to marine life (complete plastic bags ingested by
turtles, whales etc, and seals and dolphins becoming entangled in lost
or discarded fishing nets, for example), the dangers of finer plastic
is not immediately obvious, not to me at least. I would expect most of
it to pass right through and be crapped out as with ordinary marine
food residues. And if some does get absorbed into the organs of the
marine life, is it actually doing any harm? And if we eat said marine
life, is it actually going to harm us? I suspect the answer to both
those questions is no and no.

And does the plastic never break down in the sea; is it there 'for
ever' as we're so often being told? Well, no. It breaks down into
finer and finer pieces, certainly, but that just exposes more surface
for the plastic-munching bacteria to get at and hasten the eventual
decomposition of the plastic. The lifetime of plastics in the oceans
is finite.

See for example,
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2019/10/...ce-is-winning/

My own view is that we should take an intelligent view of plastics.
They are, after all, an essential component of modern living, but we
should use less where we can, and recycle where we can't.

and simply burn where we can't recycle.


--
€œwhen things get difficult you just have to lie€�

€• Jean Claud Jüncker

On Wednesday, 22 January 2020 10:36:39 UTC, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 22 Jan 2020 08:39:11 +0000, Ian Jackson
wrote:

In message , "Brian Gaff (Sofa)"
writes
With talk of pollution and microplastic, I see paint degenerate particularly
outside, surly much of it is in microscopic flakes and this has been going
on for years.
Brian

Actually, where do many things go? Rocks become stones, which become
pebbles, which become sand, which becomes microscopic sandy dust and the
inorganic component of soil. How does this differ from the harmful
microscopic grains of degenerated plastic - and, presumably, paint?

Because when rocks get washed into the rivers and then to the sea,
they don't float so don't stay in suspension for the fish to eat, or
if they do they are generally very much smaller than the equivalent
plastic partials so may pass though small creatures?

Also, paint flakes may contain lead and may then poison small
creatures?

Cheers, T i m

Paint flakes are quite able to poison big creatures as well!

On 22/01/2020 10:37, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 22/01/2020 08:39, Ian Jackson wrote:
In message , "Brian Gaff (Sofa)"
writes
With talk of pollution and microplastic, I see paint degenerate
particularly
outside, surly much of it is in microscopic flakes and this has been
going
on for years.
Brian

Actually, where do many things go? Rocks become stones, which become
pebbles, which become sand, which becomes microscopic sandy dust and
the inorganic component of soil. How does this differ from the harmful
microscopic grains of degenerated plastic - and, presumably, paint?

And biological fauna become oil and flora become coal.

All plastic degrades eventually.



And pebbles and sand can be recycled into concrete, which can
then be recycled again ...

On Wed, 22 Jan 2020 02:38:44 -0800 (PST), polygonum_on_google
wrote:

snip

Also, paint flakes may contain lead and may then poison small
creatures?



Paint flakes are quite able to poison big creatures as well!

Well, quite. ;-(

I was talking to a fellow dog walker yesterday who had a visitor stay
from the USA and their visitor stated how dirty they considered the UK
to be, specifically as compared to wherever they lived (and I'm
guessing some states / cities / towns were god / bad over there too).

Mum and Dad went to Singapore a few years back and they said that
place was immaculate and I believe there are very strong fines for
littering or dropping gum. [1]

And that's the point here. Few councils seem to go out of their way to
provide street bins, other than maybe in the town centres / shopping
areas / parks, possibly because of the cost of collection ... versus
sending out the road sweeper (that rarely covers all the corners /
under / in hedges etc) or, better still, educating the minority (I
believe it to be) to be more responsible for their own waste.

Like, they take a bag of picnic crap into the park to consume, then
think it then becomes the parks responsibility to deal with it. If
they don't they put plastic bottles or other general waste into the
dog poo bin (even though it states clearly on the front it's *only*
for dog waste) of if they can't get it in anywhere, just leave it on
the ground, near the bin or anywhere (for the foxes to spread about
overnight).

Should the councils provide a bigger bins? If they did, where would it
end ... before people turn up at the park and bring even more rubbish
with them, like furniture and mattresses?

The bottom line is it's down to education (and some only learn by
being caught out and / or fined), empathy / selfishness.

We were following some 'yout' down the road the other day and he just
dropped his drink can on the pavement. I would have loved to have
given it back to him ... taped to a baseball bat ... ;-(

Do these people mind if their front gardens are fill of rubbish ... or
would they only notice when they were wading though it?

A neighbour (who often picks up street litter, as a few of us do) has
caught a few other (often 'new' / younger) neighbours leaving crap
out on the pavement (old domestic appliances) and just littering in
general (putting their coffee ups on the pavement before walking the
10 yards 'home' or clearing the car door pocket of tickets and tissues
and just dropping them on the road) and has pulled them up on it. In
all cases so far they have ... first denied it, then agreed they had,
then apologised and when pressed, sheepishly promised they wouldn't do
it again.

What is it in their heads that allows them to do it in the first
place?

Rant over. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

[1] Anyone comment on other 1st world countries that are notably clean
/ dirty, compared with here?

p.s. The above was fuelled from the point is that it's often simply
this personal waste / litter that gets into our waterways and hence
out to sea. Round here, as all the floodwater runoff subsides you can
see a 'tide line' of plastic bottle, bags and cans that have been left
behind on the banks. ;-(

p.p.s. I have encounter quite a few people who litter because (they
say / think) it 'keeps someone in a job'. The problem with that is
those people could be doing something 'better' than picking up other
peoples fly tipping and therefore not such a burden on the local
ratepayers.

In message , The Natural Philosopher
writes
On 22/01/2020 10:33, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Wed, 22 Jan 2020 08:39:11 +0000, Ian Jackson
wrote:

In message , "Brian Gaff (Sofa)"
writes
With talk of pollution and microplastic, I see paint degenerate
particularly
outside, surly much of it is in microscopic flakes and this has been going
on for years.
Brian

Actually, where do many things go? Rocks become stones, which become
pebbles, which become sand, which becomes microscopic sandy dust and the
inorganic component of soil. How does this differ from the harmful
microscopic grains of degenerated plastic - and, presumably, paint?
While I can understand why large pieces of plastic floating in the
sea
can be hazardous to marine life (complete plastic bags ingested by
turtles, whales etc, and seals and dolphins becoming entangled in lost
or discarded fishing nets, for example), the dangers of finer plastic
is not immediately obvious, not to me at least. I would expect most of
it to pass right through and be crapped out as with ordinary marine
food residues. And if some does get absorbed into the organs of the
marine life, is it actually doing any harm? And if we eat said marine
life, is it actually going to harm us? I suspect the answer to both
those questions is no and no.
And does the plastic never break down in the sea; is it there 'for
ever' as we're so often being told? Well, no. It breaks down into
finer and finer pieces, certainly, but that just exposes more surface
for the plastic-munching bacteria to get at and hasten the eventual
decomposition of the plastic. The lifetime of plastics in the oceans
is finite.
See for example,
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2019/10/...ce-is-winning/
My own view is that we should take an intelligent view of plastics.
They are, after all, an essential component of modern living, but we
should use less where we can, and recycle where we can't.

and simply burn where we can't recycle.

And push for packaging to be in *clean burn* plastics.



--
Tim Lamb

On Wed, 22 Jan 2020 12:08:50 +0000, Tim Lamb
wrote:

snip


and simply burn where we can't recycle.

And push for packaging to be in *clean burn* plastics.

Ok, I'll admit to buying a bottle drink when we are out and have been
caught out but 1) we often re-use the bottle several times and 2) will
always recycle them properly. Even to the point of not trusting that
the likes of McDonalds sorting their waste and taking it home so that
we can be sure we have done it properly (rather than just throwing it
out the window of their car at some point on their way home ... where
they typically have a bin outside their own house?).

If we do buy a plastic bottle of drink it's rarely just water out of
principal. Do they say bottled water is 1000 times more expensive than
tap water and often not as well tested as tap water?

I often see people heaving huge multipacks of water into the shopping
trolleys or car boys and think they must be mad or something?

I often buy the Salisbury's 2% lager that has recently gone up to
£1.25 for 4 cans. How can 4 cans of lager, that is mostly water, be
less than a bottle of plain water?

The answer of course is that some people buy bottled water because
they think it's better for them, are too lazy to re-fill an existing
bottle or think it tastes better (when where they have done blind
tests, 'most people' prefer tap water). ;-)

What a mad world we live in ...

Cheers, T i m

p.s. Since I saw it mentioned here, we care saving crisp / snack
packets as I believe Walkers will take them is 5kg batches. We are
looking for a good way to store them as they can take up a bit of room
unless compressed somehow (and we don't want to knot them up as I'm
not sure how they re-process them).

In message , Jethro_uk
writes
On Wed, 22 Jan 2020 12:03:13 +0000, T i m wrote:

Mum and Dad went to Singapore a few years back and they said that place
was immaculate and I believe there are very strong fines for littering
or dropping gum.

I *personally* regard littering - from the odd fag end right the way up
to flytipped tonnes - as one of the worst crimes a person can commit.
It's lack of respect for where I have to live is indicative of a very bad
person.

I'd be more than happy to see custodial sentences for littering. And I
would suspect a lot of petty crime would disappear overnight.

I think it's called the broken windows approach ?

I am waiting for this offence to be linked to dash cam footage. Don't
need to involve the Police, just threaten their driving licence!

--
Tim Lamb

T i m wrote:

The answer of course is that some people buy bottled water because
they think it's better for them, are too lazy to re-fill an existing
bottle or think it tastes better (when where they have done blind
tests, 'most people' prefer tap water). ;-)

I do buy a little of Sainsbury's cheapest fizzy water. The amount
we use is so low that pratting about with Sparklets is not a
sensible or economic option.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK
@ChrisJDixon1

Plant amazing Acers.

On 22/01/2020 12:30, T i m wrote:

p.s. Since I saw it mentioned here, we care saving crisp / snack
packets as I believe Walkers will take them is 5kg batches. We are
looking for a good way to store them as they can take up a bit of room
unless compressed somehow (and we don't want to knot them up as I'm
not sure how they re-process them).



How long does it take to collect 5 kg of crisp bags? And do they really
recycle them, or just burn them?

On Wednesday, 22 January 2020 12:30:38 UTC, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 22 Jan 2020 12:08:50 +0000, Tim Lamb
wrote:

snip

and simply burn where we can't recycle.

And push for packaging to be in *clean burn* plastics.

Ok, I'll admit to buying a bottle drink when we are out and have been
caught out but 1) we often re-use the bottle several times and 2) will
always recycle them properly.

It's also a big problem with the meal deals in supermarkets which I use
almost every day, and so do many students.

Even to the point of not trusting that
the likes of McDonalds sorting their waste and taking it home so that
we can be sure we have done it properly.

I've not been in McDonalds since 1993 and even then it was only because
a GF likked a McDonalds breakfast. 2003 was the last time I went
in a chain burger bar (burger king), and not been in a KFC type place since around 1987.


If we do buy a plastic bottle of drink it's rarely just water out of
principal. Do they say bottled water is 1000 times more expensive than
tap water and often not as well tested as tap water?

It's what they say, but few people buy tap water anyway.
Most bottled water is spring water or other types.
I do drink the water from the dispenser in the graduate centre hallway
which is cooled water, about 500ml a day.


I often see people heaving huge multipacks of water into the shopping
trolleys or car boys and think they must be mad or something?

yes I do wonder about that too, but have you seen the price of it, so cheap
relatively that is. Even lemonade in aldi was 16p per litre.


I often buy the Salisbury's 2% lager that has recently gone up to
£1.25 for 4 cans. How can 4 cans of lager, that is mostly water, be
less than a bottle of plain water?

Is it, I wondered who buys such stuff now I know ;-)
Unless of course you actually like the taste not that I've tried it.
I'll just have one or two bottles of spitfire, abbots ale, bishops finger
or similar a week.


The answer of course is that some people buy bottled water because
they think it's better for them,

or that it actually does taste better.


are too lazy to re-fill an existing
bottle or think it tastes better (when where they have done blind
tests, 'most people' prefer tap water). ;-)

but NEVER when it's straight from the tap, they have NEVER done that test.
Sure put in in a bottle with the top off to let the cholrine evapourate
then cool it.
Another thing to remmber is that the water is tested BEFORE it goes through the pipes to our homes. Even my cat won;t drink frest tap water she'll wait 15 mins then go and drink it, this could be down to temperature as I've noticed she
is more likely to drink warm water.


What a mad world we live in ...

Cheers, T i m

p.s. Since I saw it mentioned here, we care saving crisp / snack
packets as I believe Walkers will take them is 5kg batches. We are
looking for a good way to store them as they can take up a bit of room
unless compressed somehow (and we don't want to knot them up as I'm
not sure how they re-process them).

That's the reason that I havent bought walkers crisps for over a year now.
In fact I haven't bought any crips during since then.
My brother told me that there's a reccyle shop that accepts walkers crisp bags but it's a 15min walk from the tube station.

yopu might find a place near to you.

https://www.walkers.co.uk/recycle
My 'local' one isn't on this map above, which too ages to load.

But I do eat crisps sometimes.
I had some brussel spout flavoured ones before xams. I'm having some now left over from a student function/event yesterday, and tried a sandwich too, but the bread was crisper than the crisps !

I'm also cutting down on my meat intake oooo err misses.
Have been since may, not sure if I can go veggie let alone vegan.
But I did have a vegan choclate bar today, but of course that was wrapped in plastic with a cardboard sleeve which has gone in the correct recycle bin..
Now whether or not it gets recycled I don't know.
But it was noted that all the recycled paper and card went into the same truck
as standard waste a year ago.

Still not sure what I can do about electrical waste, as in electroncis
and no longer used wall marts.

In message , T i m
writes
On Wed, 22 Jan 2020 12:31:34 -0000 (UTC), Jethro_uk
wrote:

On Wed, 22 Jan 2020 12:03:13 +0000, T i m wrote:

Mum and Dad went to Singapore a few years back and they said that place
was immaculate and I believe there are very strong fines for littering
or dropping gum.

I *personally* regard littering - from the odd fag end

There are signs outside our daughters flats about 'Cleaning up after
your dog' but none (and they are needed) about smokers cleaning up
after themselves? There are loads of fag ends where they hang about
outside the flats (they aren't allowed to smoke inside any of the flat
blocks) but they seem to think it's 'ok', just to throw them on the
ground and walk off? The same seems to apply to some drinkers as one
empty can seems to soon attract more. ;-(

right the way up
to flytipped tonnes -

A neighbour caught such recently on his CCTV. A guy with a tipper
collect a load of general house refurb waste from a house, drove it
200 yards up the same road and shot it out on some communal grass, in
broad daylight!

as one of the worst crimes a person can commit.

Well, I'm not sure I would quite go that far but it is right up there
and often linked with other 'anti social' (at least) activities /
altitudes. Large scale fly tipping (especially commercially) should
result in large fines, complete clear-up / disposal costs recovered,
along with a marker on them for the future.

It's lack of respect for where I have to live is indicative of a very bad
person.

I really don't know if some of these people realise that they are
considered such by the majority (and I think they are still only a
minority) or if they do, that they care ... or think to care till it
happens to them that is. Collect the fly-tip up and shoot it over
their front garden wall. ;-)

Where? Mostly done by Caravan Utilising Nomadic Travellers.

I'd be more than happy to see custodial sentences for littering.

I think I would prefer to see community service, at least for smaller
/ first (caught) offences, get them out litter picking themselves,
then they might better *understand* the issue.
snip
--
Tim Lamb

On Wednesday, 22 January 2020 12:03:14 UTC, T i m wrote:
I was talking to a fellow dog walker yesterday who had a visitor stay
from the USA and their visitor stated how dirty they considered the UK
to be, specifically as compared to wherever they lived (and I'm
guessing some states / cities / towns were god / bad over there too).

The USA has a far lower population density and a lot more places they can just hide the problem in landfill.

We used to be a much tidier country before all these environmental regulations put six different types of recycling bin on every corner.

Owain

Yes a whole new sphere of research. Indeed some bacteria have been found
only to exist on certain substances already, so nature finds a niche, and
exploits it.
Brian

--
----- --
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Ian Jackson" wrote in message
...
In message , "Brian Gaff (Sofa)"
writes
With talk of pollution and microplastic, I see paint degenerate
particularly
outside, surly much of it is in microscopic flakes and this has been going
on for years.
Brian

Actually, where do many things go? Rocks become stones, which become
pebbles, which become sand, which becomes microscopic sandy dust and the
inorganic component of soil. How does this differ from the harmful
microscopic grains of degenerated plastic - and, presumably, paint?
--
Ian

Wrote in message:
On Wednesday, 22 January 2020 12:03:14 UTC, T i m wrote:
I was talking to a fellow dog walker yesterday who had a visitor stay
from the USA and their visitor stated how dirty they considered the UK
to be, specifically as compared to wherever they lived (and I'm
guessing some states / cities / towns were god / bad over there too).

The USA has a far lower population density and a lot more places they can just hide the problem in landfill.

We used to be a much tidier country before all these environmental regulations put six different types of recycling bin on every corner.

& encouraged fly tipping by charging for dealing with certain
(some eminently & profitably recyclable) waste streams...

--
Jimk


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

Like most things, there is truth and falsehoods everywhere. The snag is we
do not know the long term issues since we have not had the amount of plastic
long enough to actually do the research yet.
Brian

--
----- --
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 22/01/2020 10:33, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Wed, 22 Jan 2020 08:39:11 +0000, Ian Jackson
wrote:

In message , "Brian Gaff (Sofa)"
writes
With talk of pollution and microplastic, I see paint degenerate
particularly
outside, surly much of it is in microscopic flakes and this has been
going
on for years.
Brian

Actually, where do many things go? Rocks become stones, which become
pebbles, which become sand, which becomes microscopic sandy dust and the
inorganic component of soil. How does this differ from the harmful
microscopic grains of degenerated plastic - and, presumably, paint?

While I can understand why large pieces of plastic floating in the sea
can be hazardous to marine life (complete plastic bags ingested by
turtles, whales etc, and seals and dolphins becoming entangled in lost
or discarded fishing nets, for example), the dangers of finer plastic
is not immediately obvious, not to me at least. I would expect most of
it to pass right through and be crapped out as with ordinary marine
food residues. And if some does get absorbed into the organs of the
marine life, is it actually doing any harm? And if we eat said marine
life, is it actually going to harm us? I suspect the answer to both
those questions is no and no.

And does the plastic never break down in the sea; is it there 'for
ever' as we're so often being told? Well, no. It breaks down into
finer and finer pieces, certainly, but that just exposes more surface
for the plastic-munching bacteria to get at and hasten the eventual
decomposition of the plastic. The lifetime of plastics in the oceans
is finite.

See for example,
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2019/10/...ce-is-winning/

My own view is that we should take an intelligent view of plastics.
They are, after all, an essential component of modern living, but we
should use less where we can, and recycle where we can't.

and simply burn where we can't recycle.


--
"when things get difficult you just have to lie"

? Jean Claud Jüncker

"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 22 Jan 2020 02:38:44 -0800 (PST), polygonum_on_google
wrote:

snip

Also, paint flakes may contain lead and may then poison small
creatures?



Paint flakes are quite able to poison big creatures as well!

Well, quite. ;-(

I was talking to a fellow dog walker yesterday who had a visitor stay
from the USA and their visitor stated how dirty they considered the UK
to be, specifically as compared to wherever they lived (and I'm
guessing some states / cities / towns were god / bad over there too).

Mum and Dad went to Singapore a few years back and they said that
place was immaculate and I believe there are very strong fines for
littering or dropping gum. [1]

And that's the point here. Few councils seem to go out of their way to
provide street bins, other than maybe in the town centres / shopping
areas / parks, possibly because of the cost of collection ... versus
sending out the road sweeper (that rarely covers all the corners /
under / in hedges etc) or, better still, educating the minority (I
believe it to be) to be more responsible for their own waste.

Like, they take a bag of picnic crap into the park to consume, then
think it then becomes the parks responsibility to deal with it. If
they don't they put plastic bottles or other general waste into the
dog poo bin (even though it states clearly on the front it's *only*
for dog waste) of if they can't get it in anywhere, just leave it on
the ground, near the bin or anywhere (for the foxes to spread about
overnight).

Should the councils provide a bigger bins? If they did, where would it
end ... before people turn up at the park and bring even more rubbish
with them, like furniture and mattresses?

The bottom line is it's down to education (and some only learn by
being caught out and / or fined), empathy / selfishness.

We were following some 'yout' down the road the other day and he just
dropped his drink can on the pavement. I would have loved to have
given it back to him ... taped to a baseball bat ... ;-(

Do these people mind if their front gardens are fill of rubbish ... or
would they only notice when they were wading though it?

A neighbour (who often picks up street litter, as a few of us do) has
caught a few other (often 'new' / younger) neighbours leaving crap
out on the pavement (old domestic appliances) and just littering in
general (putting their coffee ups on the pavement before walking the
10 yards 'home' or clearing the car door pocket of tickets and tissues
and just dropping them on the road) and has pulled them up on it. In
all cases so far they have ... first denied it, then agreed they had,
then apologised and when pressed, sheepishly promised they wouldn't do
it again.

What is it in their heads that allows them to do it in the first
place?

Rant over. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

[1] Anyone comment on other 1st world countries that are notably clean
/ dirty, compared with here?

Some of the street views of french 'slums' are amazingly clean.

p.s. The above was fuelled from the point is that it's often simply
this personal waste / litter that gets into our waterways and hence
out to sea. Round here, as all the floodwater runoff subsides you can
see a 'tide line' of plastic bottle, bags and cans that have been left
behind on the banks. ;-(

p.p.s. I have encounter quite a few people who litter because (they
say / think) it 'keeps someone in a job'. The problem with that is
those people could be doing something 'better' than picking up other
peoples fly tipping and therefore not such a burden on the local
ratepayers.

"Jethro_uk" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 22 Jan 2020 12:03:13 +0000, T i m wrote:

Mum and Dad went to Singapore a few years back and they said that place
was immaculate and I believe there are very strong fines for littering
or dropping gum.

I *personally* regard littering - from the odd fag end right the way up
to flytipped tonnes - as one of the worst crimes a person can commit.
It's lack of respect for where I have to live is indicative of a very bad
person.

I'd be more than happy to see custodial sentences for littering. And I
would suspect a lot of petty crime would disappear overnight.

It didnt with marijuana.

I think it's called the broken windows approach ?

Its always been a myth.

"Tim Lamb" wrote in message
...
In message , Jethro_uk
writes
On Wed, 22 Jan 2020 12:03:13 +0000, T i m wrote:

Mum and Dad went to Singapore a few years back and they said that place
was immaculate and I believe there are very strong fines for littering
or dropping gum.

I *personally* regard littering - from the odd fag end right the way up
to flytipped tonnes - as one of the worst crimes a person can commit.
It's lack of respect for where I have to live is indicative of a very bad
person.

I'd be more than happy to see custodial sentences for littering. And I
would suspect a lot of petty crime would disappear overnight.

I think it's called the broken windows approach ?

I am waiting for this offence to be linked to dash cam footage. Don't need
to involve the Police, just threaten their driving licence!

Doesn't work with illegal drugged driving.

On Wednesday, 22 January 2020 16:46:48 UTC, Rod Speed wrote:
"Tim Lamb" wrote in message
...
In message , Jethro_uk
writes
On Wed, 22 Jan 2020 12:03:13 +0000, T i m wrote:

Mum and Dad went to Singapore a few years back and they said that place
was immaculate and I believe there are very strong fines for littering
or dropping gum.

I *personally* regard littering - from the odd fag end right the way up
to flytipped tonnes - as one of the worst crimes a person can commit.
It's lack of respect for where I have to live is indicative of a very bad
person.

I'd be more than happy to see custodial sentences for littering. And I
would suspect a lot of petty crime would disappear overnight.

I think it's called the broken windows approach ?

I am waiting for this offence to be linked to dash cam footage. Don't need
to involve the Police, just threaten their driving licence!

Doesn't work with illegal drugged driving.

True but why single out drugged driving, why not just have dangerous driving.
If yuo can drive drunk or ****ed up with drugs or even drive blind
was is that worse that driving while drinking a bottle of water or doing yuor make-up.

"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, 22 January 2020 16:46:48 UTC, Rod Speed wrote:
"Tim Lamb" wrote in message
...
In message , Jethro_uk
writes
On Wed, 22 Jan 2020 12:03:13 +0000, T i m wrote:

Mum and Dad went to Singapore a few years back and they said that
place
was immaculate and I believe there are very strong fines for
littering
or dropping gum.

I *personally* regard littering - from the odd fag end right the way up
to flytipped tonnes - as one of the worst crimes a person can commit.
It's lack of respect for where I have to live is indicative of a very
bad
person.

I'd be more than happy to see custodial sentences for littering. And I
would suspect a lot of petty crime would disappear overnight.

I think it's called the broken windows approach ?

I am waiting for this offence to be linked to dash cam footage. Don't
need
to involve the Police, just threaten their driving licence!

Doesn't work with illegal drugged driving.

True but why single out drugged driving,

Thats the most recent example of where custodial
sentence has been tried with minor offences.

why not just have dangerous driving.

Because that hasnt been tried recently with custodial sentences.

If anything its hard to get a custodial sentence now
even with common assault. Its got to be pretty serious
assault to end up with a custodial sentence now.

If yuo can drive drunk

We only do custodial sentences for that
if you end up killing someone and even
then its rare to get a custodial sentence.

or ****ed up with drugs

Doesnt have to be ****ed up
to get a custodial sentence in
the recent past, just test positive.

or even drive blind was is that worse that driving while
drinking a bottle of water or doing yuor make-up.

You dont get a custodial sentence for that.

Hardly ever even loss of license.

wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, 22 January 2020 12:03:14 UTC, T i m wrote:
I was talking to a fellow dog walker yesterday who had a visitor stay
from the USA and their visitor stated how dirty they considered the UK
to be, specifically as compared to wherever they lived (and I'm
guessing some states / cities / towns were god / bad over there too).

The USA has a far lower population density

New York doesnt.

and a lot more places they can just hide the problem in landfill.

New York doesnt.

We used to be a much tidier country before
all these environmental regulations put six
different types of recycling bin on every corner.

On Wed, 22 Jan 2020 13:50:59 +0000, Chris J Dixon
wrote:

T i m wrote:

The answer of course is that some people buy bottled water because
they think it's better for them, are too lazy to re-fill an existing
bottle or think it tastes better (when where they have done blind
tests, 'most people' prefer tap water). ;-)

I do buy a little of Sainsbury's cheapest fizzy water. The amount
we use is so low that pratting about with Sparklets is not a
sensible or economic option.

No, quite, and at least it isn't just plain (still) water (that was my
real point).

I 'get' the 'I'm caught out and thirsty' thing, even for plain water,
it's the people who you see lugging what must be gallons of often
(still) water home from the shops when they have the same stuff for
1/1000th of the cost (of the water, let alone the environmental costs
of it's packaging and *transportation* [1]) coming out of their taps
at home.

Cheers, T i m

[1] And these same people generally do having water coming out of a
tap at home, this isn't Africa and they aren't wild camping away from
a stream! ;-)

"Jimk" wrote in message
o.uk...
Wrote in message:
On Wednesday, 22 January 2020 12:03:14 UTC, T i m wrote:
I was talking to a fellow dog walker yesterday who had a visitor stay
from the USA and their visitor stated how dirty they considered the UK
to be, specifically as compared to wherever they lived (and I'm
guessing some states / cities / towns were god / bad over there too).

The USA has a far lower population density and a lot more places they can
just hide the problem in landfill.

We used to be a much tidier country before all these environmental
regulations put six different types of recycling bin on every corner.

& encouraged fly tipping by charging for dealing with certain
(some eminently & profitably recyclable) waste streams...

Ours are stupid enough to charge for all stuff left at the
dump except on the couple of free dump weekends a
year and are stupid enough to whine about the stuff
dumped in the scrub at the back of town etc.

In article ,
T i m wrote:
On Wed, 22 Jan 2020 13:50:59 +0000, Chris J Dixon
wrote:

T i m wrote:

The answer of course is that some people buy bottled water because
they think it's better for them, are too lazy to re-fill an existing
bottle or think it tastes better (when where they have done blind
tests, 'most people' prefer tap water). ;-)

I do buy a little of Sainsbury's cheapest fizzy water. The amount
we use is so low that pratting about with Sparklets is not a
sensible or economic option.

No, quite, and at least it isn't just plain (still) water (that was my
real point).

I 'get' the 'I'm caught out and thirsty' thing, even for plain water,
it's the people who you see lugging what must be gallons of often
(still) water home from the shops when they have the same stuff for
1/1000th of the cost (of the water, let alone the environmental costs
of it's packaging and *transportation* S[1]) coming out of their taps
at home.


especially "Fijian water".

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

On Wed, 22 Jan 2020 14:04:24 +0000, newshound
wrote:

On 22/01/2020 12:30, T i m wrote:

p.s. Since I saw it mentioned here, we care saving crisp / snack
packets as I believe Walkers will take them is 5kg batches. We are
looking for a good way to store them as they can take up a bit of room
unless compressed somehow (and we don't want to knot them up as I'm
not sure how they re-process them).



How long does it take to collect 5 kg of crisp bags?

We don't know yet, probably 'quite some time'. Actually, that was the
quantity required for free collection, I see they now have loads of
free dropoff points that I assume have no minimum limit.

And do they really
recycle them,

I don't know, I'd like to think so:

https://www.walkers.co.uk/recycle

"What happens to the recycled packets?

The crisp packets are cleaned and shredded to turn them into plastic
pellets.
These pellets are then transformed into park benches, plant pots,
watering cans and cool bags."

or just burn them?

I'd hope not.

Because they don't care what brand you hand in, I'm wondering if there
might also be a market survey going on?

Cheers, T i m

On Wed, 22 Jan 2020 14:25:41 +0000, Tim Lamb
wrote:

snip

It's lack of respect for where I have to live is indicative of a very bad
person.

I really don't know if some of these people realise that they are
considered such by the majority (and I think they are still only a
minority) or if they do, that they care ... or think to care till it
happens to them that is. Collect the fly-tip up and shoot it over
their front garden wall. ;-)

Where? Mostly done by Caravan Utilising Nomadic Travellers.

Whilst that might case, it's far from the case round here, rather just
smaller concerns dumping smaller quantities of stuff.

Again, neighbour caught someone dragging a one tonne bag of mixed
building and garden crap out of the back of their small van and onto
the road / pavement.

I believe I saw the same van parked round the corner, outside the
house of a questionable family. We also saw the Council 'Street
Cleansing' truck come a collect it a couple of days later and it
looked like it wasn't an easy drag, even onto the tail lift. Had I
been sure the van belonged to that house, I may have been more
inclined to drop some of it back over their fence whilst dog walking
late one night.

You country folk may well see the lion's share of the tipper trucks
full of old ashfelt and crazy paving though and more 'industrial'
loads / waste.

Cheers, T i m

On Thu, 23 Jan 2020 03:46:38 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH the senile Asstralian asshole's troll****

03:46??? Is your unbearable loneliness not letting you sleep in again, you
obnoxious senile Arsetralian cretin?

--
Marland answering senile Rodent's statement, "I don't leak":
"That¢s because so much **** and ****e emanates from your gob that there is
nothing left to exit normally, your arsehole has clammed shut through disuse
and the end of prick is only clear because you are such a ******."
Message-ID:

On Thu, 23 Jan 2020 04:14:01 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH the senile asshole's latest troll****

04:14 in Australia??? And you've been up and trolling since 03:16 again!!!!
LMAO! Is your "life" SO miserable, you abnormal senile pest? Good to know!
LOL

--
The Natural Philosopher about senile Rot:
"Rod speed is not a Brexiteer. He is an Australian troll and arsehole."
Message-ID:

On Thu, 23 Jan 2020 03:44:17 +1100, Ray, better known as cantankerous
trolling senile geezer Rodent Speed, wrote:

FLUSH the clinically insane senile asshole's latest troll****

03:44??? LOL Why don't you just swallow your Nembutal? And what did you buy
it for anyway?

--
Norman Wells addressing trolling senile Rodent:
"Ah, the voice of scum speaks."
MID:

On Thu, 23 Jan 2020 04:22:59 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH senile asshole's troll****

04:22??? And you've been up and trolling for OVER AN HOUR already! IOW, you
are so miserable, you can't even hide it! LOL

--
about senile Rot Speed:
"This is like having a conversation with someone with brain damage."
MID:

On Thu, 23 Jan 2020 04:18:18 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH the clinically insane senile asshole's latest troll****

04:18??? LOL How miserable can you get, eh, senile asshole? You do it now
EVERY night! LMAO

--
Website (from 2007) dedicated to the 85-year-old trolling senile
cretin from Oz:
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/r...d-faq.2973853/

On Thu, 23 Jan 2020 03:35:54 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH senile asshole's troll****

03:35??? LOL So, WHY can't you sleep anymore, you abnormal senile pest? Is
it because of your senile hormones, or is it because of your unbearable
loneliness, you cantankerous cretin?

--
addressing nym-shifting senile Rodent:
"You on the other hand are a heavyweight bull****ter who demonstrates
your particular prowess at it every day."
MID:

On Wed, 22 Jan 2020 06:35:15 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

On Wednesday, 22 January 2020 12:03:14 UTC, T i m wrote:
I was talking to a fellow dog walker yesterday who had a visitor stay
from the USA and their visitor stated how dirty they considered the UK
to be, specifically as compared to wherever they lived (and I'm
guessing some states / cities / towns were god / bad over there too).

The USA has a far lower population density and a lot more places they can just hide the problem in landfill.

True. And I understand they don't walk as often as we do so less
likely to drop stuff they were carrying as they do?

We used to be a much tidier country before all these environmental regulations put six different types of recycling bin on every corner.

Do you think there is that link then? [1]

Much / most of what I see is likely to be dropped by people on foot.
Little corners seem to attract drink cans and bottles that couldn't be
reached from the road and are too protected to have been blown there
by the wind (unlike the carrier bags / plastic bits in the trees and
bushes).

This is most evident on any route often used by school kids. Once they
are finished with it (wrapper, bag or bottle) they just drop it
wherever they are or throw it into one of these 'corners' as they pass
by.

My Mums house has a low front wall, opposite a bus stop and was a
small portion of chips away from a chip shop. It was very common to
find the empty paper wrappers or the remainder of the uneaten food
left on the wall or in her front garden. ;-(

I have *never* left such things anywhere and simply couldn't.

Cheers, T i m

[1] The only time I've seen anything like that is people putting their
(say) empty plastic drink bottle in our green recycling bin.

I have even seen someone putting small bits of paper in our general
waste bin (well, some went on the floor) when the difference in
distance between them and their car, their own bin and ours was only a
couple of meters. We don't put our (bagged) dog waste in other peoples
bins, even if it's a fair way home or to the next / dog / public
general waste bin.

In article , Peeler
wrote:
On Thu, 23 Jan 2020 04:14:01 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH the senile asshole's latest troll****

04:14 in Australia??? And you've been up and trolling since 03:16
again!!!! LMAO! Is your "life" SO miserable, you abnormal senile pest?
Good to know! LOL

is he really in Australia?

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

On Wednesday, 22 January 2020 12:30:38 UTC, T i m wrote:
Ok, I'll admit to buying a bottle drink when we are out and have been
caught out but 1) we often re-use the bottle several times and 2) will
always recycle them properly. Even to the point of not trusting that
the likes of McDonalds sorting their waste and taking it home so that
we can be sure we have done it properly (rather than just throwing it
out the window of their car at some point on their way home ... where
they typically have a bin outside their own house?).

If we do buy a plastic bottle of drink it's rarely just water out of
principal. p.s. Since I saw it mentioned here, we care saving crisp / snack
packets as I believe Walkers will take them is 5kg batches. We are
looking for a good way to store them as they can take up a bit of room
unless compressed somehow (and we don't want to knot them up as I'm
not sure how they re-process them).

You sound like a right nutter.

Bill

On Wed, 22 Jan 2020 17:27:06 +0000 (GMT), charles
wrote:

snip

I 'get' the 'I'm caught out and thirsty' thing, even for plain water,
it's the people who you see lugging what must be gallons of often
(still) water home from the shops when they have the same stuff for
1/1000th of the cost (of the water, let alone the environmental costs
of it's packaging and *transportation* S[1]) coming out of their taps
at home.


especially "Fijian water".

Good grief.

"... The Cleveland Water Department ran tests comparing a bottle of
Fiji Water to Cleveland tap water and some other national bottled
brands. Fiji Water reportedly contained 6.31 micrograms of arsenic per
litre, whereas the tap water of Cleveland contained none.[27] In a
2015 test of Fiji Water bottled in November 2014, performed and
reported by the company, the reported arsenic level was 1.2 micrograms
per litre, below the FDA limit of 10 micrograms per litre.[28]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiji_Water

This is another thing that gets me, the conspicuous consumption of
stuff, just because you can and / or because of how others 'rate' you
because of it.

In the same way the 'done thing' when you are selling an expensive
house is to fit a new kitchen to sell it and the fist thing any new
owner will do is rip out the brand new kitchen and fit a new one, the
'old' stuff going in the skip (that's part of the effect), not being
offered to friends or on Freecycle etc.

Like you hear of celebs having stuff 'flown in' especially for them or
only wearing their clothes once (before binning, not recycling them).

I don't begrudge them having the money to do it, I am frustrated that
they don't have the social conscience not to do it.

Cheers, T i m