Is there any planning permission required for constructing an
inspection pit inside a garage on a domestic dwelling?

MM

"Mike Mitchell" wrote in message
...
Is there any planning permission required for constructing an
inspection pit inside a garage on a domestic dwelling?

By "on a domestic dwelling" do you mean the garage is attached to the
dwelling ? If so building control will want to be involved.

On Sat, 07 Aug 2004 12:36:51 +0100, Mike Mitchell
wrote:

Is there any planning permission required for constructing an
inspection pit inside a garage on a domestic dwelling?

MM

You might need building regs, I'd digg a small hole to find the
foundations and onec found have a bit of a think about what I found
....

Building control Iin my area) will work with the sort of drawings you
can do with a pencil and ruler for easier projects.

Rick

On Sat, 7 Aug 2004 20:58:49 +0100, "G&M"
wrote:


"Mike Mitchell" wrote in message
.. .
Is there any planning permission required for constructing an
inspection pit inside a garage on a domestic dwelling?

By "on a domestic dwelling" do you mean the garage is attached to the
dwelling ? If so building control will want to be involved.

The assumption is that the garage would be part of the property, and
may be affixed to the property or a separate building some distance
away. I mean, this is just as an idea of mine, as I grew up in a large
house which had the huge coaching sheds out the back, one with a pit,
and I want one day to get back into the old cars of my youth.

But I don't quite see why the council planning bods would be
interested, as what could happen just by digging a pit? Obviously, one
would have to make sure no soil or supply pipes crossed that part of
the ground, or take steps to reroute them. And one would also have to
ensure that safety was ensured, both during construction and when
finished, with the right thickness of planks being used to cover over
the pit (the one I remember as a lad had railway sleepers) when not in
use.

MM

Mike Mitchell wrote:
snip
But I don't quite see why the council planning bods would be
interested, as what could happen just by digging a pit? Obviously, one
would have to make sure no soil or supply pipes crossed that part of
the ground, or take steps to reroute them. And one would also have to

The structure you construct the pit in falls down due to undermining
the foundations.

"Mike Mitchell" wrote in message
...
But I don't quite see why the council planning bods would be
interested, as what could happen just by digging a pit?

It's building control, not planning. Quite different entities - like civil
engineers and architects (sort of).

From the sound of it I would definitely talk to them.

"Mike Mitchell" wrote
| By "on a domestic dwelling" do you mean the garage is attached
| to the dwelling ? If so building control will want to be involved.
| But I don't quite see why the council planning bods would be
| interested, as what could happen just by digging a pit?

Building control, not planning. An inspection pit presents issues of
drainage/sump and flammable liquids or gases building up in the pit as well
as the obvious ones of trip / fall hazard.

Owain

"Owain" wrote in message
...
"Mike Mitchell" wrote
| By "on a domestic dwelling" do you mean the garage is attached
| to the dwelling ? If so building control will want to be involved.
| But I don't quite see why the council planning bods would be
| interested, as what could happen just by digging a pit?

Building control, not planning. An inspection pit presents issues of
drainage/sump and flammable liquids or gases building up in the pit as
well
as the obvious ones of trip / fall hazard.

I can just see the outcome to an illegal pit!
Headline:
"Homeowner ordered to get rid of hole"!
"Authorities find does not meet hole standards and is environmentally
unsuitable".
"Claims that hole is 'nothing'; merely a gap in the firmament".
"Hole contains nothing but air; how can it be 'got rid of'?".
"Case to go to appeal, next year".
"Outcome uncertain; little precedent in law about 'holes', empty or
otherwise."
:-)

"Owain" wrote in message
...
"Mike Mitchell" wrote
| By "on a domestic dwelling" do you mean the garage is attached
| to the dwelling ? If so building control will want to be involved.
| But I don't quite see why the council planning bods would be
| interested, as what could happen just by digging a pit?

Building control, not planning. An inspection pit presents issues of
drainage/sump and flammable liquids or gases building up in the pit as
well
as the obvious ones of trip / fall hazard.

Owain

Also consider a ramp - easier (and probably cheaper) to construct.
Much better access.
No problems with drainage or gas build up.

Only problem is the headroom :-)

Dave R

On Mon, 9 Aug 2004 10:28:30 +0100, "David W.E. Roberts"
wrote:


"Owain" wrote in message
...
"Mike Mitchell" wrote
| By "on a domestic dwelling" do you mean the garage is attached
| to the dwelling ? If so building control will want to be involved.
| But I don't quite see why the council planning bods would be
| interested, as what could happen just by digging a pit?

Building control, not planning. An inspection pit presents issues of
drainage/sump and flammable liquids or gases building up in the pit as
well
as the obvious ones of trip / fall hazard.

Owain

Also consider a ramp - easier (and probably cheaper) to construct.
Much better access.
No problems with drainage or gas build up.

Only problem is the headroom :-)

Plus, unsightly. Oh, how I miss the wonderful hoists we had in the
Prototypenabteilung at Ford in Cologne!

MM

"Mike Mitchell" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 9 Aug 2004 10:28:30 +0100, "David W.E. Roberts"
wrote:


"Owain" wrote in message
...
"Mike Mitchell" wrote
| By "on a domestic dwelling" do you mean the garage is attached
| to the dwelling ? If so building control will want to be involved.
| But I don't quite see why the council planning bods would be
| interested, as what could happen just by digging a pit?

Building control, not planning. An inspection pit presents issues of
drainage/sump and flammable liquids or gases building up in the pit as
well
as the obvious ones of trip / fall hazard.

Owain

Also consider a ramp - easier (and probably cheaper) to construct.
Much better access.
No problems with drainage or gas build up.

Only problem is the headroom :-)

Plus, unsightly. Oh, how I miss the wonderful hoists we had in the
Prototypenabteilung at Ford in Cologne!

Don't tell me you did the Capri 3100s !?

"David W.E. Roberts" wrote in message ...

Also consider a ramp - easier (and probably cheaper) to construct.
Much better access.


Can you tell me how? Would need one heck of a run up!
I've often thought about making a metal ramp out of a couple of steel
girders type things but then with a big jack under the shallow end to
get he car up level. Not sure that'd be safer than a pit though!!

On Mon, 9 Aug 2004 21:09:03 +0100, "G&M"
wrote:


"Mike Mitchell" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 9 Aug 2004 10:28:30 +0100, "David W.E. Roberts"
wrote:


"Owain" wrote in message
...
"Mike Mitchell" wrote
| By "on a domestic dwelling" do you mean the garage is attached
| to the dwelling ? If so building control will want to be involved.
| But I don't quite see why the council planning bods would be
| interested, as what could happen just by digging a pit?

Building control, not planning. An inspection pit presents issues of
drainage/sump and flammable liquids or gases building up in the pit as
well
as the obvious ones of trip / fall hazard.

Owain

Also consider a ramp - easier (and probably cheaper) to construct.
Much better access.
No problems with drainage or gas build up.

Only problem is the headroom :-)

Plus, unsightly. Oh, how I miss the wonderful hoists we had in the
Prototypenabteilung at Ford in Cologne!

Don't tell me you did the Capri 3100s !?

Yep, all Capris. We had to dismantle prototypes after they had been
round the test tracks at Lommel in Belgium. Once I had to remove
blood-soaked sandbags from a car that had crashed and killed the test
driver. Actually, the bags were filled with lead shot. We also built
the Escort, Granada, Cortina, and Fiesta, which was based on the Fiat
127 bodyshell.

MM

On 10 Aug 2004 01:15:28 -0700, (adder) wrote:

"David W.E. Roberts" wrote in message ...

Also consider a ramp - easier (and probably cheaper) to construct.
Much better access.


Can you tell me how? Would need one heck of a run up!
I've often thought about making a metal ramp out of a couple of steel
girders type things but then with a big jack under the shallow end to
get he car up level. Not sure that'd be safer than a pit though!!

Exactly! That's why I would trust a pit over anything else, since a
hoist is, of course, out of the question (unless I won the lottery!).

MM

Where in the various regulations does it specify that any permission is
required for fitting a pit into a garage?

Just a query

Regards
Capitol

"Capitol" wrote
| Where in the various regulations does it specify that any
| permission is required for fitting a pit into a garage?

It's more likely that fitting a pit would cause other regulations to be
breached.

Owain

Owain wrote:
"Capitol" wrote
| Where in the various regulations does it specify that any
| permission is required for fitting a pit into a garage?

It's more likely that fitting a pit would cause other regulations to be
breached.

How do you 'fit' a pit? It sounds almost as if you go and buy one
from a pit supplier and install it! :-)

--
Chris Green

wrote in message ...
Owain wrote:
"Capitol" wrote
| Where in the various regulations does it specify that any
| permission is required for fitting a pit into a garage?

It's more likely that fitting a pit would cause other regulations to be
breached.

How do you 'fit' a pit? It sounds almost as if you go and buy one
from a pit supplier and install it! :-)

--
Chris Green

Well actually you can! There are pre-moulded fibreglass pits available to be
set into concrete. I've always had a vision of one of these popping up in
the air either as it is installed or later due to the surrounding water
level. g (apparently you fill them with water before you pour the concrete
round them to keep them is place then pump it away)

Andrew Mawson

"Capitol" wrote in message
...

Where in the various regulations does it specify that any permission is
required for fitting a pit into a garage?

Just a query

I'd start with the structure docs - especially foundations. Also drainage.
Obviously it's not the pit that is regulated, it's what the pit will do to
the rest of the building.

On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 17:24:24 +0000 (UTC), "Andrew Mawson"
wrote:


wrote in message ...
Owain wrote:
"Capitol" wrote
| Where in the various regulations does it specify that any
| permission is required for fitting a pit into a garage?

It's more likely that fitting a pit would cause other regulations to be
breached.

How do you 'fit' a pit? It sounds almost as if you go and buy one
from a pit supplier and install it! :-)

--
Chris Green

Well actually you can! There are pre-moulded fibreglass pits available to be
set into concrete. I've always had a vision of one of these popping up in
the air either as it is installed or later due to the surrounding water
level. g (apparently you fill them with water before you pour the concrete
round them to keep them is place then pump it away)

Cheap paddling pool for lanky kids?

MM

"Mike Mitchell" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 7 Aug 2004 20:58:49 +0100, "G&M"
wrote:


"Mike Mitchell" wrote in message
.. .
Is there any planning permission required for constructing an
inspection pit inside a garage on a domestic dwelling?



But I don't quite see why the council planning bods would be
interested, as what could happen just by digging a pit?

How would they know?

I'd forgotten that our garage has a pit, a) it's covered with boards and
probably full of stored stuff and b) the boards can't be seen for all the
stuff which lives in the garage.

I mean, how many garages are used for cars?

You can't even get TO our garage in a car even if you could get into it.
Repairs are done - when they are (these days mostly the car goes to the
professionals) by driving it on to ramps and jacking the other end.

Mary

In article ,
Mike Mitchell wrote:
I've often thought about making a metal ramp out of a couple of steel
girders type things but then with a big jack under the shallow end to
get he car up level. Not sure that'd be safer than a pit though!!

Exactly! That's why I would trust a pit over anything else,

There are plenty of stories of pits collapsing.

Half decent ramps and axle stands on level ground are pretty safe to me.

--
*Prepositions are not words to end sentences with *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message ...


There are plenty of stories of pits collapsing.

Half decent ramps and axle stands on level ground are pretty safe to me.

Don't go up to 6' though do they :-)

"Mike Mitchell" wrote in message
...
On 10 Aug 2004 01:15:28 -0700, (adder) wrote:

"David W.E. Roberts" wrote in message
...

Also consider a ramp - easier (and probably cheaper) to construct.
Much better access.


Can you tell me how? Would need one heck of a run up!
I've often thought about making a metal ramp out of a couple of steel
girders type things but then with a big jack under the shallow end to
get he car up level. Not sure that'd be safer than a pit though!!

Exactly! That's why I would trust a pit over anything else, since a
hoist is, of course, out of the question (unless I won the lottery!).


Just about anything is safer than a pit you mean (certainly in the DIY
sector), inspection pits have many hazards which is one reason why many
workshop designs go to great lengths to avoid the use of pits.

"adder" wrote in message
m...
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...


There are plenty of stories of pits collapsing.

Half decent ramps and axle stands on level ground are pretty safe to me.

Don't go up to 6' though do they :-)

A second hand two or four post ramp does though....

In article ,
Huge wrote:
Have you tried holding your arms over your head for any length of time?

Yes. ;-) You do get used to it - eventually.

--
*The man who fell into an upholstery machine is fully recovered.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 16 Aug 2004 04:46:17 -0700, (adder) wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message ...


There are plenty of stories of pits collapsing.

Half decent ramps and axle stands on level ground are pretty safe to me.

Don't go up to 6' though do they :-)

Maybe Dave's do, if he's worried about pits collapsing!

MM

On Mon, 16 Aug 2004 13:12:47 +0100, ":::Jerry::::"
wrote:


"Mike Mitchell" wrote in message
.. .
On 10 Aug 2004 01:15:28 -0700, (adder) wrote:

"David W.E. Roberts" wrote in message
...

Also consider a ramp - easier (and probably cheaper) to construct.
Much better access.


Can you tell me how? Would need one heck of a run up!
I've often thought about making a metal ramp out of a couple of steel
girders type things but then with a big jack under the shallow end to
get he car up level. Not sure that'd be safer than a pit though!!

Exactly! That's why I would trust a pit over anything else, since a
hoist is, of course, out of the question (unless I won the lottery!).


Just about anything is safer than a pit you mean (certainly in the DIY
sector), inspection pits have many hazards which is one reason why many
workshop designs go to great lengths to avoid the use of pits.

I'm sorry to be so brutally frank, but this is utter rubbish.

MM

"Mike Mitchell" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 16 Aug 2004 13:12:47 +0100, ":::Jerry::::"
wrote:


"Mike Mitchell" wrote in message
.. .
On 10 Aug 2004 01:15:28 -0700, (adder) wrote:

"David W.E. Roberts" wrote in message
...

Also consider a ramp - easier (and probably cheaper) to construct.
Much better access.


Can you tell me how? Would need one heck of a run up!
I've often thought about making a metal ramp out of a couple of steel
girders type things but then with a big jack under the shallow end to
get he car up level. Not sure that'd be safer than a pit though!!

Exactly! That's why I would trust a pit over anything else, since a
hoist is, of course, out of the question (unless I won the lottery!).


Just about anything is safer than a pit you mean (certainly in the DIY
sector), inspection pits have many hazards which is one reason why many
workshop designs go to great lengths to avoid the use of pits.

I'm sorry to be so brutally frank, but this is utter rubbish.


And I'll be utterly frank, you are a total idiot who know sod all if you
think pits are safer than the alternatives, have you ever seen a fire in a
pit cause by a petrol leak else ware in the vicinity, have you ever seen the
injury that can be cause by someone failing into a pit, have you ever seen
the damage cause when something like a car fails into a pit, there are
problems cause by the vehicle being over a pit rather than jacked or
otherwise supported off the ground with the wheel free - the list could go
on.

Pits are dangerous, ask the H&S authority, one day you'll get a clue -
hopefully before it's to late...

"Mike Mitchell" wrote in message
...


Just about anything is safer than a pit you mean (certainly in the DIY
sector), inspection pits have many hazards which is one reason why many
workshop designs go to great lengths to avoid the use of pits.

I'm sorry to be so brutally frank, but this is utter rubbish.

Hurrah!



MM

In article ,
Mike Mitchell wrote:
Just about anything is safer than a pit you mean (certainly in the DIY
sector), inspection pits have many hazards which is one reason why many
workshop designs go to great lengths to avoid the use of pits.

I'm sorry to be so brutally frank, but this is utter rubbish.#

It's not. For a start, they can be difficult to get in and out of without
risk of injury. They collect all sorts of rubbish on the bottom and aren't
that easy to clean out. So they may be slippery, etc. And if wet, can be
more of a hazard when using electrical tools, etc. They also collect some
inflammable fumes which are heavier than air. Then, of course, there's the
danger of falling in one when it's not covered up properly when not in use.

The one commercial garage I know which still uses them has a problem with
height, so can't have a conventional lift. They dug down an access
corridor at the back of both their pits so you get to them via normal
steps away from a vehicles using the pits, and of course made them much
easier to keep clean, etc.

I did have a garage with a pit once. It was, of course, useful, but the
car never seemed to be in the right place for the bits you had to access.
And getting the tools etc you'd forgotten was a pain too.

So unless they're very much larger than the average - ie longer than the
car so you get easy access to either end, and to get in and out, they
might just be more trouble than they're worth.

--
*I'm not being rude. You're just insignificant

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Mike Mitchell wrote:
Just about anything is safer than a pit you mean (certainly in the DIY
sector), inspection pits have many hazards which is one reason why many
workshop designs go to great lengths to avoid the use of pits.

I'm sorry to be so brutally frank, but this is utter rubbish.#

It's not. For a start, they can be difficult to get in and out of without
risk of injury.

Like bathtubs.

They collect all sorts of rubbish on the bottom and aren't
that easy to clean out.


Like bathtubs.

So they may be slippery, etc.

Like bathtubs.

And if wet, can be
more of a hazard when using electrical tools, etc.

Like bathtubs.

They also collect some
inflammable fumes which are heavier than air.

ahem Like bathtubs.

Then, of course, there's the
danger of falling in one when it's not covered up properly when not in
use.

BAN BATHTUBS NOW!

Mary

In article ,
Mary Fisher wrote:
Just about anything is safer than a pit you mean (certainly in the
DIY sector), inspection pits have many hazards which is one reason
why many workshop designs go to great lengths to avoid the use of
pits.

I'm sorry to be so brutally frank, but this is utter rubbish.

Hurrah!

You've not thought it through. Or, indeed, probably used a domestic one. I
have.

--
*Sleep with a photographer and watch things develop

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
. net...

snip total clap-trap

Were you trying to be funny or are you just totally clueless ?...

In article ,
Mary Fisher wrote:
It's not. For a start, they can be difficult to get in and out of without
risk of injury.

Like bathtubs.

True. So they make walk in ones. As I recommended for a pit.

They collect all sorts of rubbish on the bottom and aren't
that easy to clean out.


Like bathtubs.

I'd not like to visit your house, then.;-)

So they may be slippery, etc.

Like bathtubs.

And if wet, can be
more of a hazard when using electrical tools, etc.

Like bathtubs.

You don't believe in safety regs, then?

They also collect some
inflammable fumes which are heavier than air.

ahem Like bathtubs.

Mine tend to rise... Wonder what you eat?

Then, of course, there's the
danger of falling in one when it's not covered up properly when not in
use.

BAN BATHTUBS NOW!

Hence why most use a shower.

--
*I don't know what your problem is, but I'll bet it's hard to pronounce

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...


--
*Sleep with a photographer and watch things develop

Or get a fix.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

BAN BATHTUBS NOW!

Hence why most use a shower.

Evidence?

Mary

On Mon, 16 Aug 2004 16:09:00 +0100, ":::Jerry::::"
wrote:


"Mike Mitchell" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 16 Aug 2004 13:12:47 +0100, ":::Jerry::::"
wrote:


"Mike Mitchell" wrote in message
.. .
On 10 Aug 2004 01:15:28 -0700, (adder) wrote:

"David W.E. Roberts" wrote in message
...

Also consider a ramp - easier (and probably cheaper) to construct.
Much better access.


Can you tell me how? Would need one heck of a run up!
I've often thought about making a metal ramp out of a couple of steel
girders type things but then with a big jack under the shallow end to
get he car up level. Not sure that'd be safer than a pit though!!

Exactly! That's why I would trust a pit over anything else, since a
hoist is, of course, out of the question (unless I won the lottery!).


Just about anything is safer than a pit you mean (certainly in the DIY
sector), inspection pits have many hazards which is one reason why many
workshop designs go to great lengths to avoid the use of pits.

I'm sorry to be so brutally frank, but this is utter rubbish.


And I'll be utterly frank, you are a total idiot who know sod all if you
think pits are safer than the alternatives, have you ever seen a fire in a
pit cause by a petrol leak else ware in the vicinity, have you ever seen the
injury that can be cause by someone failing into a pit, have you ever seen
the damage cause when something like a car fails into a pit, there are
problems cause by the vehicle being over a pit rather than jacked or
otherwise supported off the ground with the wheel free - the list could go
on.

Pits are dangerous, ask the H&S authority, one day you'll get a clue -
hopefully before it's to late...

Hey, it's my turn to be frank! You're exaggerating the dangers, hyping
the problems and frightening the horses! I have known and loved pits
all my life and have never come across any situation like you
describe. But axle stands, jacks, half-bricks, lumps of wood, and all
the other weird and wonderful paraphernalia people stick under half a
ton of metal to kill themselves with are orders of magnitude more
dangerous than any pit. Trust me, I know what I'm talking about. You
don't.

MM

On Mon, 16 Aug 2004 17:06:49 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Mike Mitchell wrote:
Just about anything is safer than a pit you mean (certainly in the DIY
sector), inspection pits have many hazards which is one reason why many
workshop designs go to great lengths to avoid the use of pits.

I'm sorry to be so brutally frank, but this is utter rubbish.#

It's not.

Yes, it is. See below.

For a start, they can be difficult to get in and out of without
risk of injury.

You climb down into them. What is difficult about that? Think of a
ladder up the side of the house. Now turn your head upside down.
That's what climbing down into a pit feels like.

They collect all sorts of rubbish on the bottom and aren't
that easy to clean out.

Tried a heavy-duty vacuum cleaner? The round ones with the face are
good. Also, shops sell brooms, dustpans, brushes, that sort of thing.
You can deal with grease - not that modern cars are all that greasy -
by strewing sawdust, then treading it in. Obviously, this means you
have to keep digging the pit a bit deeper...

So they may be slippery, etc.

Sawdust and industrial boots.

And if wet, can be
more of a hazard when using electrical tools, etc.

How/why would a pit inside a garage be wet? If it becomes wet by
leakage from the radiator, for example, then stop the leak, then dry
it out! If anyone is daft enough to use electricty in wet condtions -
drilling in a swimming pool comes to mind - then why am I not
surprised when he fries? By the way, a pit is rather like a baby
swimming pool, but drier.

They also collect some
inflammable fumes which are heavier than air.

That indeed is a possibility. But what about a fan, so long as it
isn't powered by electricity, of course, just in case a stray spark
could trigger the US Early Warning System? (Actually, having written
that I expect GCHQ is on my case right now.)

Then, of course, there's the
danger of falling in one when it's not covered up properly when not in use.

So cover it up properly when not in use! The pits I used had railway
sleepers over them. It's hard to see how they could be dangerous. Mind
you, if they're from Railtrack, anything is possible...

The one commercial garage I know which still uses them has a problem with
height, so can't have a conventional lift. They dug down an access
corridor at the back of both their pits so you get to them via normal
steps away from a vehicles using the pits, and of course made them much
easier to keep clean, etc.

Ah, now you're talking! We had this type of pit, too, at a garage
where I worked. But it's difficult to achieve such a length/height in
a domestic garage.

I did have a garage with a pit once. It was, of course, useful,

Serendipity!

but the
car never seemed to be in the right place for the bits you had to access.

You can leave the handbrake off and roll the car from underneath. We
did it all the time. No one died.

And getting the tools etc you'd forgotten was a pain too.

Yes, that *is* a pain. But so is forgetting one's tools when one is on
top of the roof or in the loft and has to go back down again.
Forgetting stuff has the habit of being irritating no matter what it
is. I'm always forgetting while out shopping as I am so absent minded.
I'm always forgetting while out shopping as I am so absent minded.

So unless they're very much larger than the average - ie longer than the
car so you get easy access to either end, and to get in and out, they
might just be more trouble than they're worth.

No. They cannot possibly be *more* trouble. The thing is, everything
in life is a risk - including me making glib reference to the US back
there - but as long as we take every care and are sensible there is
much to be done without fear of injury. Face it, many DIY-ers kill
themselves doing the most mundane things. How many wear eye
protection? Who wears thick, industrial boots when digging the garden,
and not wellies? Ever seen a spade partially sever someone's toes?
Life is hard, but don't make it too hard, else we might just as well
stay in bed and wait for the euthanasia wagon to come and collect the
body.

MM

On Mon, 16 Aug 2004 17:59:02 +0100, ":::Jerry::::"
wrote:


"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
.net...

snip total clap-trap

Were you trying to be funny or are you just totally clueless ?...

Whenever someone mentions clueless, I immediately think of Alicia
Silverstone.

MM