"Tim Streater" wrote in message
.. .
In article , The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 15/02/2019 19:26, 2987fr wrote:

Yawn. How can I answer the phone on a computer with no microphone?

Its the usual story. Apple - a company making products I never knew I
didnt want and certainly don't need.

Actually, no one needs a smartphone,

But anyone with a clue has noticed how convenient they are.

and I regret that we've got them.

There will always be some luddites. Same with stupid phones
and with landline phones too.

I've stopped using mine for mail and taken the Twitter app off. Nothing
that's left is actually vital- unlike the desktop machine.

It isnt about vital, its actually about what is convenient.

Just today I could communicate with someone who had
a misleading label on some bottles of wine she is selling
on one of the facebook buy swap sell groups. It was handy
to clear up the confusing labelling while I was out in the
car and I could have picked them up when out already
if the labelling had been accurate.

If the windows people here want to do something that's actually *useful*,
they can go to www.iletter.org.uk and test the newly released Win version
of my email client.

Doesnt do instant messaging. The world's moved on, again.

I quite often MMS a picture of something that is for sale at
a garage sale to a mate of mine who isnt there and buy it
for him when he says that he wants it. He does the same thing
for me. And send videos when its more than one item too.

Useless to do it with a camera and send it when I have
got home again and have to go out to buy it for him if
he wants it and find that someone else has bought it.

"Paul Welsh" wrote in message
...
On 15/02/2019 22:59, 2987fr wrote:

Hopw automatic do you want?

More automatic than the below, particularly
for the technoklutzes with their photos etc.


Dunno about an iPhone but I sync my android phone's camera folder with a
Linux server and Windows 10. Take a photo on the phone and it just appears
on the other machines.

It seems simple to me.

Yes, but not what he listed in the para you deleted from the quoting.

And doing it your way is a lot easier on Win than Linux for a technoklutz.

Paul Welsh wrote:

I have bought many cheap Win7 and win10 licences for about £20. I
activate them with Microsoft. I buy them from a company called
softwaregeeks and have been using them for over three years.

https://softwaregeeks.co.uk/product-category/windows-10/

The wayback machine shows that the softwaregeeks.co.uk website
originally listed a company name "Bonodo Ltd", that was struck off in
October 2017.

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/09548993/filing-history
wayback then shows a company called "Geeks Ent Ltd"

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/10599124/filing-history

But the current website and nominet claims the company/domain is
owned/registered by "softwaregeeks.co.uk GmbH" though no such company is
shown on the Unternehmens Register

https://www.unternehmensregister.de/ureg/result.html

I suspect the domain has been snapped-up and is being used by
fly-by-nights since the original company folded ...

The company "Software Geeks Ltd" (which may or not be related) was
registered and struck off without ever filing any return

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/09117516/filing-history


A company German website (which may or not be related) shows a
UK owner of "Softwaregeek Ltd"

https://softwaregeek.de/impressum

That hasn't existed long enough to file any accounts

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/11495724/filing-history

and is registered down this shady lane

https://goo.gl/maps/jYv6s1f9d4s

where they share an address with several other companies with a various
foreign owners and a history of being struck off

https://suite.endole.co.uk/explorer/postcode/tn21-8tr

So in what way are they not legit?

It all smells iffy to me, what sort of invoices did you get?

On Thu, 14 Feb 2019 11:01:15 +0000, T i m wrote:

... and will also authenticate itself the first time you go online.

You don't even have to do that, ie pay, for Win 10. The only bits
that don't work are the "personalisation" stuff and you have a
"Windows isn't Activated" OWTE bottom right corner.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Thu, 14 Feb 2019 11:28:51 +0000, TimW wrote:

Then you will need a windows license pref at a discount via a student
or a connection to a charity.

Not for Win10, download the ISO, install and use (after switching off
cortina and the nagging to setup onedrive, etc).

Win10 doesn't *need* to be "activated", it all works apart from the
"personalisation". You do have a lower right corner on screen text
asking you to activate windows but that's easy to ignore.

Unless things have changed in the last couple of years. This free use
of Win10 was fairly easy to find just after it was released, couple
of years ago it was getting a bit buried, these days I guess it's in
the basement with a tiger.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 14/02/2019 16:45, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 14/02/2019 10:25, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Clive Page
wrote:

Our desktop PC is showing signs of senility - it's running Windows XP
from
which you can tell that it's well past it's use-by date.Â*Â* We still
use it as
a file and backup server and for occasional word processing and
spreadsheet
work, but don't need high performance.

There seem to be quite a number of machines costing up to £350 that look
suitable, from brands like Acer, Dell, HP, Lenovo, Packard-Bell, etc.

From experience in buying laptops in recent years, I think the main
deciding
factor may be how much bloatware is pre-installed but it's hard to
assess that
from vendors descriptions or reviews.Â* Does anyone have experience of
which
brands are least infested, or on which it's easiest to remove all the
junk?

Yes, it's called a Mac. No bloatware at all.

All bloatware.

Try Linux.

Just hat I was going to say.

On 15/02/2019 13:04, Fredxx wrote:
On 14/02/2019 18:01, wrote:
On Thursday, 14 February 2019 16:56:04 UTC, whisky-daveÂ* wrote:
On Thursday, 14 February 2019 16:45:24 UTC, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

Try Linux.

If you want to spend all your time doing nothing linux is the way
to go, but to get something done even windose is better than
linux.

My experience has consistently been that Linux requires way less
messing with & is quicker to use. Windows has only worsened since I
last used it much, Linux has only got better. Neither is perfect of
course.

That's not my experience.

Windows drivers come with the PC,, that cannot be guaranteed for Linux.

If you want Linus, get one pre-installed with Linux. Older machines may
fare better.

Also there is one current flavour of Windows and there is a virtual
guarantee at the end you will have a working PC. Although the drivers I
mentioned may have to be installed.

The same is not true for Linux.

Linux Ubuntu has nearly all the drivers I need, and the ones it doesn't
can be downloaded and installed.

On 16/02/2019 10:59, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Thu, 14 Feb 2019 11:28:51 +0000, TimW wrote:

Then you will need a windows license pref at a discount via a student
or a connection to a charity.

Not for Win10, download the ISO, install and use (after switching off
cortina and the nagging to setup onedrive, etc).

Win10 doesn't *need* to be "activated", it all works apart from the
"personalisation". You do have a lower right corner on screen text
asking you to activate windows but that's easy to ignore.

Unless things have changed in the last couple of years. This free use
of Win10 was fairly easy to find just after it was released, couple
of years ago it was getting a bit buried, these days I guess it's in
the basement with a tiger.


I have one machine without a valid licence, this has this activation
symbol. It was a Win 7 laptop that I tried to upgrade free to Win10
years ago, but the upgrade failed due to hardware incompatibility. So I
left it on Win7. Recently the SSD died, so I slapped in a spare SSD with
win10 already installed. The Win10 SSD just worked, perfectly, on the
laptop, apart from the "not activated" message. I feel cheated out of my
free upgrade ;o).

On Sat, 16 Feb 2019 10:48:32 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

On Thu, 14 Feb 2019 11:01:15 +0000, T i m wrote:

... and will also authenticate itself the first time you go online.

You don't even have to do that, ie pay, for Win 10.

They OP wouldn't (anyway) though would he, if the machine came
pre-installed with W10 (and what I was answering).

The only bits
that don't work are the "personalisation" stuff and you have a
"Windows isn't Activated" OWTE bottom right corner.

Oh, ok. Whilst I must have some un-activated machines around here
(test installs etc) I can't remember ever running one like that for
any time because it's so easy to get activated, even from a previous
W7/8/8.1 install.

An elderly mate has an old PC running W7 and it only has an 80G hdd
(that is now full).

I've got him to order a 240G SSD and a 2.5 to 3.5" adaptor tray, plus
an external 1TB USB drive (he has no backups) and my intention is to
backup all his data, swap the HD for SSD and install W10 on the SSD
from scratch. If all goes well we can re-install any apps and restore
his data.

This would probably be after a dog walk as his elderly black lab is a
good influence on our (rescue) 'Borkie' (Beagle / Yorkshire terrier)
.... as even with all of us taking it in turns walking / running him
all day long ... doesn't seem to wear him out but does calm him down a
bit ... ;-(

Cheers, T i m

On Sat, 16 Feb 2019 11:04:38 +0000, RobH wrote:

snip

Also there is one current flavour of Windows and there is a virtual
guarantee at the end you will have a working PC. Although the drivers I
mentioned may have to be installed.

The same is not true for Linux.

Linux Ubuntu

Is that like 'Robin Reliant' or are you 'foreign (where some languages
swap the word order around)?

has nearly all the drivers I need,

Out Of The Box you mean? Yeah, most recent Linux distros have most of
the basic drivers you need and often some of the extra (like for
printers).

and the ones it doesn't
can be downloaded and installed.

They can but how easily for most users, struggling to fix stuff
themselves?

Eg, say you need a driver for something under both Windows and Linux.

For Windows you go to the relevant web site and more often than not
you will find a Downloads section and in that either a list of
products or even a utility that will detect what of that brand
products you have installed / connected and get and install the
drivers for you. Even if it doesn't, the driver is likely to be a
single exe file that just runs and works.

For Linux, the same website is likely to offer nothing for Linux or
direct you so some 'special needs' 'give this a try and good luck'
link or generic driver that you have to install manually and / or
compile yourself (without giving line by line instructions how).

Or some Github bizarre / lucky-click page that may or may not give you
something you want.

It's like all (most) Linux people have never actually met ordinary
non-computer-literate / interested people who just want to get on with
their day, not take up some obscure hobby (or even have a basement to
do so in, had they wanted). ;-)

I have been building, installing, upgrading and maintaining PC's both
commercially and informally for friends and family since the 80's and
have NEVER struggled with getting an OS to work (fully) than I have
with the little I have played with Linux. And that's part of the
problem of course, I haven't (and don't want to) 'study Linux in the
same way I haven't and didn't 'study' MSDOS, CPM, OS/2, Windows or
even OSX, yet I typically found all of them much easier to work with
because (excluding MSDOS etc), you didn't generally have to conjure up
un-intuitive CLI gobbledygook to be able to do stuff.

And even then I typically could, I could create a basic autoexec.bat
or config.sys direct from the terminal or edit an .ini file but Linux
... with all it's bizzare file structures and 'you can't do this here'
restrictions (even though you just installed the thing) getting in the
way.

I'm sure it's all logical to someone used to any *nix or used to
having to program / run stuff from the CLI, just to get simple things
to work but that ain't 'most people'.

So, I install Windows and see something hasn't been fully configured
in device manager, the chances are a Windows Update will fix most /
all of that. If it doesn't I can generally use plain English (on
websites) and the mouse to fix it.

With Linux this long term PC builder will give it a go ... do some
Googling and hope to stumble upon someone who has posted an accurate /
up-to-date step-by-step walk through that I can copy/paste into my
version of that distro with that DE on my hardware and hope it works
for me also.

If it doesn't, I don't bother asking Linux geeks for help as their
version of what might help isn't generally the same as mine (because
it rarely helps), so will just re-install the Windows the hardware was
'designed for'.

I wish it wasn't still like this (and it is getting better) as I
really would like to make use of this free (of cost, I'm not
interested in any other type of 'free') especially if it's supposed to
be 'better' (safer / faster etc)?

Cheers, T i m

On Fri, 15 Feb 2019 22:30:00 +0000, Paul Welsh wrote:

On 15/02/2019 19:47, Andy Burns wrote:
TimW wrote:

You could always get pcs without an OS

Then you'll be paying over £100 for a genuine Win10 licence to go with
it (and don't get fooled that anything cheaper is is legit).


You mean fooled by Microsoft saying it is legit?

I have bought many cheap Win7 and win10 licences for about £20. I
activate them with Microsoft. I buy them from a company called
softwaregeeks and have been using them for over three years.

https://softwaregeeks.co.uk/product-category/windows-10/

So in what way are they not legit?

If it activates, it's legit. Nice link by the way!

On Fri, 15 Feb 2019 20:52:12 +0000, Bill wrote:

In message , mechanic
writes
On Fri, 15 Feb 2019 00:12:04 +0000, Bill wrote:

He seems still convinced that his iMac is "better". I hadn't the heart
to remind him that the Thinkpad laptop I was controlling his Mac from
has a 500GB ssd plus a 500GB data drive, has the same 8GB memory,
swivels into a touch + stylus tablet and cost almost exactly half of
what he paid for the Mac.

Which would be £200??? Where did you get that from?

Ebay X220T from Tier1 £99 plus cost of mSATA ssd
Ebay X230T £140 + cost of ssd

Those seem to be bids on ebay, not 'buy it now' prices. And grade C?

On 15/02/2019 19:26, 2987fr wrote:


Most linux distributions support all of that, and most have a less
confusing unbloated GUI than the 'universal apps' and full screen
'edge' mess windows 10 has now become. I really want to turn that crap
off!

Trivially easy to do that.

A mess.

https://www.askvg.com/guide-how-to-r...in-windows-10/

--
Adrian C

In message , mechanic
writes
On Fri, 15 Feb 2019 20:52:12 +0000, Bill wrote:

In message , mechanic
writes
On Fri, 15 Feb 2019 00:12:04 +0000, Bill wrote:

He seems still convinced that his iMac is "better". I hadn't the heart
to remind him that the Thinkpad laptop I was controlling his Mac from
has a 500GB ssd plus a 500GB data drive, has the same 8GB memory,
swivels into a touch + stylus tablet and cost almost exactly half of
what he paid for the Mac.

Which would be £200??? Where did you get that from?

Ebay X220T from Tier1 £99 plus cost of mSATA ssd
Ebay X230T £140 + cost of ssd

Those seem to be bids on ebay, not 'buy it now' prices. And grade C?

Yes, one bid on ebay for the Tier 1 machine, which was Grade C, but the
only fault were the marks on the lid where stickers were removed. To go
into detail, it came with a faulty ram module, and they replaced the 2 x
2GB's with one 4GB. I had a second 4GB here to take it up to the 8GB.
The 1TB HD and 240GB ssd took the total price up to just about £200, and
I have the 500GB HD that came in it to use or sell on ebay.

The X230T was a "Make Offer" on ebay, and I just added the 500GB mSATA
ssd, leaving it with the 500GB HD it came with. It was not graded, but
there are no faults or marks beyond a very small amount of expected
scuffing. I also have the two WWAN cards to dispose of that were taken
out when the ssd's were fitted.

I did expect to do some work to get these machines how I wanted, but I
am sure I could get one of these, to this spec, for much less than a
vaguely similar Mac

The above is obviously OT for the original question, but I would be
happy to put either of these machines (one is W7, the other W10) up
against my friend's refurbished Mac in a straight comparison about what
they will actually be useful for.

This friend has had and used full time a W10 Windows .desktop machine
from a small builder. It has a 500GB SSD and 2TB HD, and he uses it with
a huge 42" (?) monitor. He has had no problems with it, beyond the
initial setup where he couldn't find passwords etc., and then
integrating other machines like his MS Surface and various TV and audio
interfaces with the whole system, where I have assisted.
Why he wants now to break out and use a Mac for his writing, I don't
know. He has already replaced what he described as the cheap keyboard
and mouse it came with, and keeps telling me how small the screen is and
how he has to find his glasses to read it. He has had to plug in usb
drives to use his documents and provide space.

I suspect, like the schoolchildren's climate change protest, there has
been an element of subtle brainwashing involved.
--
Bill

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

"Adrian Caspersz" wrote in message
...
On 15/02/2019 19:26, 2987fr wrote:


Most linux distributions support all of that, and most have a less
confusing unbloated GUI than the 'universal apps' and full screen 'edge'
mess windows 10 has now become. I really want to turn that crap off!

Trivially easy to do that.

A mess.

https://www.askvg.com/guide-how-to-r...in-windows-10/

I wasnt talking about removing all the built in apps,
I was talking about reverting to the previous UI.

On 15/02/2019 22:30, Paul Welsh wrote:
On 15/02/2019 19:47, Andy Burns wrote:
TimW wrote:

You could always get pcs without an OS

Then you'll be paying over £100 for a genuine Win10 licence to go with
it (and don't get fooled that anything cheaper is is legit).


You mean fooled by Microsoft saying it is legit?

I have bought many cheap Win7 and win10 licences for about £20. I
activate them with Microsoft. I buy them from a company called
softwaregeeks and have been using them for over three years.

https://softwaregeeks.co.uk/product-category/windows-10/

So in what way are they not legit?

To quote the site in question: "The product comes with step-by-step
instructions for installation/activation, along with a volume license
product key"

So basically its a volume license key version of windows. Not licensed
for resale. To use it legitimately you would need to have a Volume
licensing program agreement in place with MS. [1]

For comparison, my *trade* price on Win 10 Home x64 is £78.13 ex VAT.


[1] From:

https://www.microsoft.com/Licensing/...ls.aspx?id=201

What are Product Keys?
A Product Key enables use of a software product you have licensed under
a specific Volume Licensing program. The Product Keys listed in the VLSC
should be used with only Volume License products and are intended for
use by your organization only.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 17/02/2019 00:32, John Rumm wrote:
On 15/02/2019 22:30, Paul Welsh wrote:
On 15/02/2019 19:47, Andy Burns wrote:
TimW wrote:

You could always get pcs without an OS

Then you'll be paying over £100 for a genuine Win10 licence to go
with it (and don't get fooled that anything cheaper is is legit).


You mean fooled by Microsoft saying it is legit?

I have bought many cheap Win7 and win10 licences for about £20. I
activate them with Microsoft. I buy them from a company called
softwaregeeks and have been using them for over three years.

https://softwaregeeks.co.uk/product-category/windows-10/

So in what way are they not legit?

To quote the site in question: "The product comes with step-by-step
instructions for installation/activation, along with a volume license
product key"

So basically its a volume license key version of windows. Not licensed
for resale. To use it legitimately you would need to have a Volume
licensing program agreement in place with MS. [1]

For comparison, my *trade* price on Win 10 Home x64 is £78.13 ex VAT.


[1] From:

https://www.microsoft.com/Licensing/...ls.aspx?id=201


What are Product Keys?
A Product Key enables use of a software product you have licensed under
a specific Volume Licensing program. The Product Keys listed in the VLSC
should be used with only Volume License products and are intended for
use by your organization only.

I don't think so. see [2].

The basic facts are the licences work. I have never noticed a problem
with them or a difference from a normal licence. Microsoft themselves
activate the licence under my name (perhaps I mean my email), I make no
pretence that I belong to any organization. At least some licences
required telephone activation.

You might not like it but it appears to be legal. Microsoft could take
action to stop it but they don't. This is inaction to the point where
they appear, to my mind anyway, to be complicit.

So I can see no reason why I shouldn't buy them and no reason why I
shouldn't recommend them to others.


[2] From:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discount-Licensing

The legalities of the secondary-volume and digital-software markets were
reaffirmed in a 3 July 2012 European Court of Justice ruling which
involved the Exhaustion Principle and the Software Directive 2009.[16]

On 17/02/2019 10:13, Paul Welsh wrote:
On 17/02/2019 00:32, John Rumm wrote:
On 15/02/2019 22:30, Paul Welsh wrote:
On 15/02/2019 19:47, Andy Burns wrote:
TimW wrote:

You could always get pcs without an OS

Then you'll be paying over £100 for a genuine Win10 licence to go
with it (and don't get fooled that anything cheaper is is legit).


You mean fooled by Microsoft saying it is legit?

I have bought many cheap Win7 and win10 licences for about £20. I
activate them with Microsoft. I buy them from a company called
softwaregeeks and have been using them for over three years.

https://softwaregeeks.co.uk/product-category/windows-10/

So in what way are they not legit?

To quote the site in question: "The product comes with step-by-step
instructions for installation/activation, along with a volume license
product key"

So basically its a volume license key version of windows. Not licensed
for resale. To use it legitimately you would need to have a Volume
licensing program agreement in place with MS. [1]

For comparison, my *trade* price on Win 10 Home x64 is £78.13 ex VAT.


[1] From:

https://www.microsoft.com/Licensing/...ls.aspx?id=201


What are Product Keys?
A Product Key enables use of a software product you have licensed
under a specific Volume Licensing program. The Product Keys listed in
the VLSC should be used with only Volume License products and are
intended for use by your organization only.

I don't think so. see [2].

The basic facts are the licences work. I have never noticed a problem
with them or a difference from a normal licence. Microsoft themselves
activate the licence under my name (perhaps I mean my email), I make no
pretence that I belong to any organization. At least some licences
required telephone activation.

You might not like it but it appears to be legal. Microsoft could take
action to stop it but they don't. This is inaction to the point where
they appear, to my mind anyway, to be complicit.

So I can see no reason why I shouldn't buy them and no reason why I
shouldn't recommend them to others.


[2] From:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discount-Licensing

The legalities of the secondary-volume and digital-software markets were
reaffirmed in a 3 July 2012 European Court of Justice ruling which
involved the Exhaustion Principle and the Software Directive 2009.[

Some resale of some "used" licences is now lawful. But that doesn't
mean the sales by an alleged German company which doesn't bother to
comply with distance selling legislation are lawful. Compare eg this
company which at least gives the impression of knowing the law - on
software licensing and on online trading.

https://discount-licensing.com/en/contact/




--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 17/02/2019 00:32, John Rumm wrote:
On 15/02/2019 22:30, Paul Welsh wrote:
On 15/02/2019 19:47, Andy Burns wrote:
TimW wrote:

You could always get pcs without an OS

Then you'll be paying over £100 for a genuine Win10 licence to go
with it (and don't get fooled that anything cheaper is is legit).


You mean fooled by Microsoft saying it is legit?

I have bought many cheap Win7 and win10 licences for about £20. I
activate them with Microsoft. I buy them from a company called
softwaregeeks and have been using them for over three years.

https://softwaregeeks.co.uk/product-category/windows-10/

So in what way are they not legit?

To quote the site in question: "The product comes with step-by-step
instructions for installation/activation, along with a volume license
product key"

So basically its a volume license key version of windows. Not licensed
for resale. To use it legitimately you would need to have a Volume
licensing program agreement in place with MS. [1]

For comparison, my *trade* price on Win 10 Home x64 is £78.13 ex VAT.


[1] From:

https://www.microsoft.com/Licensing/...ls.aspx?id=201


What are Product Keys?
A Product Key enables use of a software product you have licensed under
a specific Volume Licensing program. The Product Keys listed in the VLSC
should be used with only Volume License products and are intended for
use by your organization only.

Let's just say that those £19.99 licences can be had for nothing online,
equally as legit (well, NOT).

On 17/02/2019 10:13, Paul Welsh wrote:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discount-Licensing

The legalities of the secondary-volume and digital-software markets were
reaffirmed in a 3 July 2012 European Court of Justice ruling which
involved the Exhaustion Principle and the Software Directive 2009.[16]

That's OK then, M$ can cancel all the uk licenses after brexit. 8-)

On 17/02/2019 11:09, Robin wrote:
On 17/02/2019 10:13, Paul Welsh wrote:
On 17/02/2019 00:32, John Rumm wrote:
On 15/02/2019 22:30, Paul Welsh wrote:
On 15/02/2019 19:47, Andy Burns wrote:
TimW wrote:

You could always get pcs without an OS

Then you'll be paying over £100 for a genuine Win10 licence to go
with it (and don't get fooled that anything cheaper is is legit).


You mean fooled by Microsoft saying it is legit?

I have bought many cheap Win7 and win10 licences for about £20. I
activate them with Microsoft. I buy them from a company called
softwaregeeks and have been using them for over three years.

https://softwaregeeks.co.uk/product-category/windows-10/

So in what way are they not legit?

To quote the site in question: "The product comes with step-by-step
instructions for installation/activation, along with a volume license
product key"

So basically its a volume license key version of windows. Not
licensed for resale. To use it legitimately you would need to have a
Volume licensing program agreement in place with MS. [1]

For comparison, my *trade* price on Win 10 Home x64 is £78.13 ex VAT.


[1] From:

https://www.microsoft.com/Licensing/...ls.aspx?id=201


What are Product Keys?
A Product Key enables use of a software product you have licensed
under a specific Volume Licensing program. The Product Keys listed in
the VLSC should be used with only Volume License products and are
intended for use by your organization only.

I don't think so. see [2].

The basic facts are the licences work. I have never noticed a problem
with them or a difference from a normal licence. Microsoft themselves
activate the licence under my name (perhaps I mean my email), I make
no pretence that I belong to any organization. At least some licences
required telephone activation.

You might not like it but it appears to be legal. Microsoft could take
action to stop it but they don't. This is inaction to the point where
they appear, to my mind anyway, to be complicit.

So I can see no reason why I shouldn't buy them and no reason why I
shouldn't recommend them to others.


[2] From:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discount-Licensing

The legalities of the secondary-volume and digital-software markets
were reaffirmed in a 3 July 2012 European Court of Justice ruling
which involved the Exhaustion Principle and the Software Directive 2009.[

Some resale of some "used" licences is now lawful.Â* But that doesn't
mean the sales by an alleged German company which doesn't bother to
comply with distance selling legislation are lawful.

John made an argument that I should know the licence were not lawful
because the licence was a volume licence and that it is not legal to
resell volume licences.

I showed this argument is not correct.

Now you pipe in with a strawman and an unsupported immaterial allegation.

Yes, I can't be certain the licences are legal. A fact that is true for
most of the goods I buy. The point is that no one has given me a
reasonable argument to cause me to believe they are not legal. I was
even diligent enough to check here when it was suggested to me that they
were illegal.

I'm not clear what you mean with regards to distance selling or why you
think it is relevant. It is an unfortunate fact that many companies do
not appear to understand the Consumer Contracts Regulations or at least
they do not acknowledge them in their T&C.

On 17/02/2019 10:13, Paul Welsh wrote:
On 17/02/2019 00:32, John Rumm wrote:
On 15/02/2019 22:30, Paul Welsh wrote:
On 15/02/2019 19:47, Andy Burns wrote:
TimW wrote:

You could always get pcs without an OS

Then you'll be paying over £100 for a genuine Win10 licence to go
with it (and don't get fooled that anything cheaper is is legit).


You mean fooled by Microsoft saying it is legit?

I have bought many cheap Win7 and win10 licences for about £20. I
activate them with Microsoft. I buy them from a company called
softwaregeeks and have been using them for over three years.

https://softwaregeeks.co.uk/product-category/windows-10/

So in what way are they not legit?

To quote the site in question: "The product comes with step-by-step
instructions for installation/activation, along with a volume license
product key"

So basically its a volume license key version of windows. Not licensed
for resale. To use it legitimately you would need to have a Volume
licensing program agreement in place with MS. [1]

For comparison, my *trade* price on Win 10 Home x64 is £78.13 ex VAT.


[1] From:

https://www.microsoft.com/Licensing/...ls.aspx?id=201


What are Product Keys?
A Product Key enables use of a software product you have licensed
under a specific Volume Licensing program. The Product Keys listed in
the VLSC should be used with only Volume License products and are
intended for use by your organization only.

I don't think so. see [2].

The basic facts are the licences work.

of course they work - they are real MS volume license keys. Don't
confuse working with properly licensed.

Much the same as if you buy a "grey" or "parallel" import license - its
a real thing made by MS, but intended for sale into a different market.

I have never noticed a problem
with them or a difference from a normal licence. Microsoft themselves
activate the licence under my name (perhaps I mean my email), I make no
pretence that I belong to any organization. At least some licences
required telephone activation.

That's because many are designed to be pre-activated by the OEM - so
they disable the normal activation route.

You might not like it

I don't really care one way or the other.

but it appears to be legal. Microsoft could take
action to stop it but they don't. This is inaction to the point where
they appear, to my mind anyway, to be complicit.

So I can see no reason why I shouldn't buy them and no reason why I
shouldn't recommend them to others.

Do as you wish. However readers should at least be aware that as far as
MS are concerned they are not being used in accordance with the terms of
the license agreement that goes with them. They may or may not choose to
pull the plug on them at some point in the future, or perhaps they
consider in a "diminishing PC world" its a way of making sure enough
people have Win 10 so they can them be sold something to use with it
later - preferably "as a service", so they generate ongoing revenue.

[2] From:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discount-Licensing

The legalities of the secondary-volume and digital-software markets were
reaffirmed in a 3 July 2012 European Court of Justice ruling which
involved the Exhaustion Principle and the Software Directive 2009.[16]

That is a slightly different scenario where they are reselling existing
licences that have been previously bought and paid for, and the owner
the sought to liquidate some of them (or the owner was itself
liquidated!) The comment from MS is also telling!

The link you cite makes no pretence at arguing they are reselling
previously purchased volume license keys.




--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 18/02/2019 03:41, John Rumm wrote:


The link you cite makes no pretence at arguing they are reselling
previously purchased volume license keys.


It has been a long while BUT AFAICR these OEM keys were sold to PC
builders to use on preinstalled hardware. They were sold cheap because
they were not boxed sets wwith DVD or CD or diks or or anything: The PC
builder installed the code via whatever route was appropriate - often a
disk clone off the network, and then enabled the installation with an MS
key.

My local builder would not sell me these keys. His license agreement
forbade him from anything other than selling them on the hardware he put
together.

This was in Win98/2000 sort of era.


--
"Women actually are capable of being far more than the feminists will
let them."

On Friday, 15 February 2019 21:22:14 UTC, Vir Campestris wrote:
On 15/02/2019 17:03, whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 14 February 2019 21:24:56 UTC, Vir Campestris wrote:
I'll bite.

Which Mac is "costing up to £350"?


Second hand ones that are 4+ years old. One reason why macs are popular is because they don't age as badly as a windose laptop might.
Just lok into cash converters and the like.
The big advantage of PCs type is yuo don;t have to worry about virues that might be lurking on a SH PC.

You may not worry about them, but they definitely exist. Not in the
numbers they do for Windows, but they are there.

Then where are they, few, if anyone has seen a Mac virus in recent years.


And second hand PCs are still cheaper than second hand Macs.

Because they aren't worth as much, and people think secondhand Macs are worth more than secondhand PCs, the market shows that.

On Friday, 15 February 2019 22:03:26 UTC, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 15/02/2019 19:26, 2987fr wrote:


"Adrian Caspersz" wrote in message
...
On 15/02/2019 14:03, dennis@home wrote:
On 15/02/2019 12:22, Adrian Caspersz wrote:
On 15/02/2019 11:49, dennis@home wrote:

Nothing is easy on linux for a newbie unless they can download a
preconfigured image.

Plenty around. You sound sore ...

snip


I'm not a newbie, I designed hardware and unix systems that still run
on System X telephone exchanges now (8 years later).

Yeah. I'll think of you everytime these obviously badly authenticated
systems let another scammer call through to tell me that my BT
internet line will be disconnected :-(


Linux is still pretty bad for a newbie though.

The generally use case is someone who will surf the net, send emails,
use a printer, listen to music, use facebook, edit video.

And want to move stuff to and from their smartphone.
Not so automatic with linux.


Hopw automatic do you want?
I plug it in. The files are there. I use normal tools to move stuff on
and off...

Most linux distributions support all of that, and most have a less
confusing unbloated GUI than the 'universal apps' and full screen
'edge' mess windows 10 has now become. I really want to turn that crap
off!

Trivially easy to do that.

I don't see how linux is "pretty bad". Get someone who knows what they
are doing to install it,

Dont need to do that with Win because the hardware comes with it
preinstalled.

sort out (if) any hardware issues, and the end user experience is like
anything else run out of the box.

Not with moving stuff between your PC and smartphone.

And it is
different than Windows (or Mac), but in my view less troublesome.

Not with moving stuff between your PC and smartphone.
And you never get the full integration between the Mac
and iphone where you can answer an incoming call or text
on what you happen to be using when it comes in either.


Yawn. How can I answer te phone on a compyer with mo microphone?

Its teh usual story. Apple - a company making products I never knew i
didnt want and certainly don't need.

All Macs have a microphone if not two microphones for stereo .
Last week I was using skype to a friend in AUS, trouble is he was using a PC laptop and I could hardly hear him because his internal mic was to close to the fan and that's what I could hear. We had to go back to typing in the end.
Pictuer quality was fine so it wasnlt a netweork problem he could hear me clearly but of course I was on a iMac.

On 18/02/2019 10:15, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 18/02/2019 03:41, John Rumm wrote:


The link you cite makes no pretence at arguing they are reselling
previously purchased volume license keys.


It has been a long while BUTÂ* AFAICR these OEM keys were sold to PC
builders to use on preinstalled hardware. They were sold cheap because
they were not boxed setsÂ* wwith DVD or CD or diks or or anything: The PC
builder installed the code via whatever route was appropriate - often a
disk clone off the network, and then enabled the installation with an MS
key.

My localÂ* builder would not sell me these keys. His license agreement
forbade him from anything other than selling them on the hardware he put
together.

This was in Win98/2000 sort of era.

Its still much the same now. OEM keys are designed to be pre loaded by
the system builder, and are then tied to the hardware by product
activation. They are supposed to live and die with the machine, you have
no transfer rights to re-install them on another machine.

Retail keys or Product Key Card versions are transferable.

OEM versions can be bought with or without physical media, or you can
buy them through a volume license deal.

The OEM keys are cheaper - but still not as cheap as the bargain deals
on ebay etc.

(Currently Win 10 Pro, is about £192 retail, and OEM about £129)



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In message ,
whisky-dave writes
All Macs have a microphone if not two microphones for stereo . Last
week I was using skype to a friend in AUS, trouble is he was using a PC
laptop and I could hardly hear him because his internal mic was to
close to the fan and that's what I could hear. We had to go back to
typing in the end. Pictuer quality was fine so it wasnlt a netweork
problem he could hear me clearly but of course I was on a iMac.

I have had a machine where the mic was mounted close to the fan and the
HD and, yes, it was hopeless. Yesterday I did a Facebook video linkup,
where I used this laptop in that way for the first time. I specifically
asked about audio and video quality from my end, and was told all was
fine.

You are just restating the obvious. Macs combine hardware and software
in a fairly strict manner. Windows machines vary wildly and some can be
very good and some very bad. But I am not convinced that any sort of Mac
is as good for me as a reasonably carefully chosen Windows laptop or a
decent Windows desktop.
It's all about horses for courses. If you spend a lot of time
travelling, something light like an Air or a Surface might be suitable,
If you use masses of permanent interfaces eg for audio recording, a
decent Windows desktop is cheaper and more flexible than a Mac. I'm
somewhere in the middle with my small Lenovo laptop/tablets, that will
hook up to the cars' computer, record music, do accounts, draw with the
pen, edit video and audio etc. etc., all at about half the price of a
similar Mac.

Grandson (1yo) has just been sick all over son's MacBook Air, I'm told.
I wonder what that will take or cost to rescue?

--
Bill

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This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

On Monday, 18 February 2019 14:01:16 UTC, Bill wrote:
In message ,
whisky-dave writes
All Macs have a microphone if not two microphones for stereo . Last
week I was using skype to a friend in AUS, trouble is he was using a PC
laptop and I could hardly hear him because his internal mic was to
close to the fan and that's what I could hear. We had to go back to
typing in the end. Pictuer quality was fine so it wasnlt a netweork
problem he could hear me clearly but of course I was on a iMac.

I have had a machine where the mic was mounted close to the fan and the
HD and, yes, it was hopeless.

I'm betting it's down to certain computers being better than others, or lets say better engineering principles.


Yesterday I did a Facebook video linkup,
where I used this laptop in that way for the first time. I specifically
asked about audio and video quality from my end, and was told all was
fine.

He;s has been fine in the past but perhaps because it was summer in Australia and he was sitting in his sun drenched kitchen extention.
Years ago a simalar thing happened to another friend in Australia in summer, she was on skype and it kept breaking up until eventually disconnecting. Then I got a phone call from her.


You are just restating the obvious.

She said her PC stopped working, I asked what she meant, and she said the fan was really spinning fast I could here it, so I wrapped a towel around the case to keep it quite. She asked if a Mac would work better I said No, best for her not to get any sort of computer, but stick to wrting letters and sending photographs.



Macs combine hardware and software
in a fairly strict manner. Windows machines vary wildly and some can be
very good and some very bad.

You are just restating the obvious ;-)
But the vast number of PCs sold aren't top end not even middle end they are bottom end.


But I am not convinced that any sort of Mac
is as good for me as a reasonably carefully chosen Windows laptop or a
decent Windows desktop.

Probabbly not but perhaps you'll never know.


It's all about horses for courses. If you spend a lot of time
travelling, something light like an Air or a Surface might be suitable,

and both are a simialr price I doubt a PC world specail from X maker at £295 including carry case will be as good as a surface or an air.
But because they have the same size screen, same speed processor memeory a SSD some do think they are getting an incredably bargin and everyone else is an idiot for paying more.

But I also prefer Mac OS to MS OS and I've used both for years.
I prefer word and excel to pages and numbers, so I'm not against MS.


If you use masses of permanent interfaces eg for audio recording, a
decent Windows desktop is cheaper and more flexible than a Mac.

So why do most musicains prefer macs, and I know quite a few.

Even Brian Eno who wrote the MS windows startup chime on a Mac.


I'm
somewhere in the middle with my small Lenovo laptop/tablets, that will
hook up to the cars' computer, record music, do accounts, draw with the
pen, edit video and audio etc. etc., all at about half the price of a
similar Mac.

But is it worth it, I've a PC laptop here where the battery charger port is faulty, academic can't get his work off until it's fixed.


Grandson (1yo) has just been sick all over son's MacBook Air, I'm told.
I wonder what that will take or cost to rescue?

Why has he got a macbook air when he could have a PC laptop have you thought to ask or arks anyone why they buy a Mac.

Perhaps yuo should ask car drivers why they choose their car as aren't the all the same pretty much anyway.

Do you know or could you tell aTK max suite from an armarni or a burberry I doubt I could unless I got to see the price tag.

Some can tell the differnce between cheap chocalate and expensive others can't.

The biggest fact is that pelole are prepared to pay more for a Mac computer than a PC as can be seen on ebay and in any secondhand computershop and there are reasons for that even if you don't understand them.



--
Bill

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

I don't need a virus checker either.

On Monday, 18 February 2019 17:45:32 UTC, Bill wrote:
In message ,
whisky-dave writes
So why do most musicains prefer macs, and I know quite a few.

Even Brian Eno who wrote the MS windows startup chime on a Mac.

We must know different musicians.

I thought most knew the name brian Eno, as most know then name Mozart



The musicians I know use recording features, rather than synthesis. One
could dispute whether that old startup sound actually amounted to music.

He was asked to compose the startup sound because the original 3.1 sound was crap which no one really liked.

SO yes it was a musical sound before he had to restrict it to what PCs could produce. The startup sound did change and improve with later versions of the OS, but Brian Eno used a Mac on the original


Educate yourself for once

https://theindustryobserver.thebrag....startup-sound/



Grandson (1yo) has just been sick all over son's MacBook Air, I'm told..
I wonder what that will take or cost to rescue?

Why has he got a macbook air when he could have a PC laptop have you
thought to ask or arks anyone why they buy a Mac.

I've asked him. It's because he travels a lot in the UK and
internationally and it is light and does what he wants.

So he clould find a PC laptop that did exactly the same ?
Why was that ?

Also he can
afford it. I couldn't,

That's yuor problem and that is the key here given the choice Macs do get chosen in general.

but I want my laptop to do more than his can do,
rather than being thin and pretty.

So what can you're laptop do that he's air can't.


His MacBook Air seems to have survived the vomit, so that's one up to
that, but he was worried about the cost of a replacement keyboard.

When people have things that are woirth mor ethen they tend to worry more
do you not understand that ?
Perhaps you don't give a **** about your laptop because for the price of a few cups of coffee and a cake you can get a brand new PC laptop.

My friend was very worried about his Mac book pro in thialand when it fell off the rickshaw and got runn over by the motorized richshaw directly behind, it buckled the aluminium case leavign a sharp edge but it still worked, I doubt some plastic **** would have survived.





Perhaps yuo should ask car drivers why they choose their car as aren't
the all the same pretty much anyway.

I gave him a lift to the station just now in the 15yo Rangie,

they are cheap are they there are plenty of cars that can do 70 and above that are far better value.

which I
got for towing the 3 ton boat.

Few want to do that.

He thinks he wants the equivalent 4x4
Porsche for about the same price.

I didn't think porsche made tow trucks.


He started, after I said it might be
today that my gearbox dies, telling me about how Porsche engines just go
bang (he knows several Porsche owners) when the coating on the pistons
dies. He has no material need for a big 4x4.

Few do, but whay are those chelsea tractors so popular when so few need them ?

"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Monday, 18 February 2019 17:45:32 UTC, Bill wrote:
In message ,
whisky-dave writes
So why do most musicains prefer macs, and I know quite a few.

Even Brian Eno who wrote the MS windows startup chime on a Mac.

We must know different musicians.

I thought most knew the name brian Eno, as most know then name Mozart



The musicians I know use recording features, rather than synthesis. One
could dispute whether that old startup sound actually amounted to music.

He was asked to compose the startup sound because the original 3.1 sound
was crap which no one really liked.

SO yes it was a musical sound before he had to restrict it to what PCs
could produce. The startup sound did change and improve with later
versions of the OS, but Brian Eno used a Mac on the original


Educate yourself for once

https://theindustryobserver.thebrag....startup-sound/



Grandson (1yo) has just been sick all over son's MacBook Air, I'm
told.
I wonder what that will take or cost to rescue?

Why has he got a macbook air when he could have a PC laptop have you
thought to ask or arks anyone why they buy a Mac.

I've asked him. It's because he travels a lot in the UK and
internationally and it is light and does what he wants.

So he clould find a PC laptop that did exactly the same ?
Why was that ?

Also he can
afford it. I couldn't,

That's yuor problem and that is the key here given the choice Macs do get
chosen in general.

but I want my laptop to do more than his can do,
rather than being thin and pretty.

So what can you're laptop do that he's air can't.


His MacBook Air seems to have survived the vomit, so that's one up to
that, but he was worried about the cost of a replacement keyboard.

When people have things that are woirth mor ethen they tend to worry more
do you not understand that ?
Perhaps you don't give a **** about your laptop because for the price of a
few cups of coffee and a cake you can get a brand new PC laptop.

My friend was very worried about his Mac book pro in thialand when it fell
off the rickshaw and got runn over by the motorized richshaw directly
behind, it buckled the aluminium case leavign a sharp edge but it still
worked, I doubt some plastic **** would have survived.





Perhaps yuo should ask car drivers why they choose their car as aren't
the all the same pretty much anyway.

I gave him a lift to the station just now in the 15yo Rangie,

they are cheap are they there are plenty of cars that can do 70 and above
that are far better value.

which I
got for towing the 3 ton boat.

Few want to do that.

He thinks he wants the equivalent 4x4
Porsche for about the same price.

I didn't think porsche made tow trucks.


He started, after I said it might be
today that my gearbox dies, telling me about how Porsche engines just go
bang (he knows several Porsche owners) when the coating on the pistons
dies. He has no material need for a big 4x4.

Few do, but whay are those chelsea tractors so popular when so few need
them ?

Because stupid women feel safer in them, even tho they are in fact less safe
to drive.

On 2019-02-19 10:52 a.m., Rod Speed wrote:


"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Monday, 18 February 2019 17:45:32 UTC, BillÂ* wrote:
In message ,
whisky-dave writes
So why do most musicains prefer macs, and I know quite a few.

Even Brian Eno who wrote the MS windows startup chime on a Mac.

We must know different musicians.

I thought most knew the name brian Eno, as most know then name Mozart



The musicians I know use recording features, rather than synthesis. One
could dispute whether that old startup sound actually amounted to music.

He was asked to compose the startup soundÂ* because the original 3.1
sound was crap which no one really liked.

SO yes it was a musical sound before he had to restrict it to what PCs
could produce. The startup sound did change and improve with later
versions of the OS, but Brian Eno used a Mac on the original


Educate yourself for once

https://theindustryobserver.thebrag....startup-sound/




Grandson (1yo) has just been sick all over son's MacBook Air, I'm
told.
I wonder what that will take or cost to rescue?

Why has he got a macbook air when he could have a PC laptop have you
thought to ask or arks anyone why they buy a Mac.

I've asked him. It's because he travels a lot in the UK and
internationally and it is light and does what he wants.

So he clould find a PC laptop that did exactly the same ?
Why was that ?

Also he can
afford it. I couldn't,

That's yuor problem and that is the key here given the choice MacsÂ* do
get chosen in general.

but I want my laptop to do more than his can do,
rather than being thin and pretty.

So what can you're laptop do that he's air can't.


His MacBook Air seems to have survived the vomit, so that's one up to
that, but he was worried about the cost of a replacement keyboard.

When people have things that are woirth mor ethen they tend to worry more
do you not understand that ?
Perhaps you don't give a **** about your laptop because for the price
of a few cups of coffee and a cake you can get a brand new PC laptop.

My friend was very worried about his Mac book pro in thialand when it
fell off the rickshaw and got runn over by the motorized richshaw
directly behind, it buckled the aluminium case leavign a sharp edge
but it still worked, I doubt some plastic **** would have survived.





Perhaps yuo should ask car drivers why they choose their car as aren't
theÂ* all the same pretty much anyway.

I gave him a lift to the station just now in the 15yo Rangie,

they are cheap are they there are plenty of cars that can do 70 and
above that are far better value.

which I
got for towing the 3 ton boat.

Few want to do that.

He thinks he wants the equivalent 4x4
Porsche for about the same price.

I didn't think porsche made tow trucks.


He started, after I said it might be
today that my gearbox dies, telling me about how Porsche engines just go
bang (he knows several Porsche owners) when the coating on the pistons
dies. He has no material need for a big 4x4.

Few do, but whay are those chelsea tractors so popular when so few
need them ?

Because stupid women feel safer in them, even tho they are in fact less
safe to drive.

no they aren't

In message ,
whisky-dave writes
He was asked to compose the startup sound because the original 3.1
sound was crap which no one really liked.

SO yes it was a musical sound before he had to restrict it to what PCs
could produce. The startup sound did change and improve with later
versions of the OS, but Brian Eno used a Mac on the original


I haven't snipped and tucked, because I think it's time to bring this
small and OT chat to a close, but to answer your points:

PC's pre W95 could be set up to produce full range and quality sound.
The limitation then was the cost of hard drives rather than the OS.

The musicians I know are live musicians from all sort of genres.

I have heard of Brian Eno and Mozart. I prefer Beethoven and Chuck
Berry.

I still think it's arguable whether the Windows 95 sound is music. The
story you pointed to said little about how he produced the sound - it
sounds synthesised, which is probably the on stage technology you refer
to with Macs. I was referring to audio mixing and recording. I suspect
most of that is now dedicated units with embedded Linux.

Not sure what his MacBook Air will do. My Lenovo laptop has 500gb ssd +
500GB hd. It has an excellent keyboard, but the screen can swivel and
fold to make it a tablet. In the field, I can do a quick sketch on the
screen with the pen, or I can touch to select functions - ideal for use
in a car to use with OBD2. It isn't perfect, but imo it is far better
bang for the buck than a MacBook of similar age. I don't mind that it is
not as "cool". It's carbon fibre and metal and is robust, but I haven't
got a rickshaw to do that test.

Son has more money than me, so he has iPhone, iPad and Air. I am happy
with my Aldi Android and my Lenovo lappie. He does use small Windows
office based machines for his work.
I do have a Windows 8 tablet, but the less said about that the better,
and hardly ever use it.

The big Porsche 4x4's will tow 3 tons, but I've never seen one doing
that. I don't know why people buy big 4x4's if they have no practical
reason. I did have a reason, but the boat is now with other son, so
considering my options. The space inside, the heated seats and wheel are
nice, though. Shame the inbuilt TV is pre digital, so just receives
hash.
--
Bill

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On Tuesday, 19 February 2019 19:06:45 UTC, Bill wrote:
In message ,
whisky-dave writes
He was asked to compose the startup sound because the original 3.1
sound was crap which no one really liked.

SO yes it was a musical sound before he had to restrict it to what PCs
could produce. The startup sound did change and improve with later
versions of the OS, but Brian Eno used a Mac on the original


I haven't snipped and tucked, because I think it's time to bring this
small and OT chat to a close, but to answer your points:

PC's pre W95 could be set up to produce full range and quality sound.
The limitation then was the cost of hard drives rather than the OS.

The first Macintosh didn't need a HD for the sounds.
The startup sounds. Go find them if you don't believe me or watch the unvieling of the first macintosh.


The musicians I know are live musicians from all sort of genres.

I have heard of Brian Eno and Mozart. I prefer Beethoven and Chuck
Berry.

But niether of them used a PC or a Mac did they.

https://www.quora.com/Why-do-so-many-musicians-use-Macs

Even douglas adams prefered a Mac, he could have written on the PC I know that he knew that too.

I still think it's arguable whether the Windows 95 sound is music.

It started as music but too complex and long to be a startup sound.
It's quite well documented.

I've even watch Brian Eno talk about it in an interview some 12 years ago .

https://theindustryobserver.thebrag....startup-sound/

"Brian Eno, who was tapped by Microsofts executives to create this piece of music."

He was asked to create music not a series of bleeps.

€˜We want a piece of music that is inspiring, universal, blah-blah, da-da-da, optimistic, futuristic, sentimental, emotional, this whole list of adjectives, and then at the bottom it said €˜and it must be 3.25 seconds long.



The
story you pointed to said little about how he produced the sound - it
sounds synthesised,

Of course it's from a compter.
which is probably the on stage technology you refer
to with Macs. I was referring to audio mixing and recording. I suspect
most of that is now dedicated units with embedded Linux.

Depends who you are, and how much money you have to throw at such things.
MS didn't ask the London or new york Symphony orchestras .
Brian Eno was asked and he used a Mac.
There were and are plenty of other musicians out there but for whatever reason they asked Eno.







Not sure what his MacBook Air will do. My Lenovo laptop has 500gb ssd +
500GB hd. It has an excellent keyboard, but the screen can swivel and
fold to make it a tablet. In the field, I can do a quick sketch on the
screen with the pen, or I can touch to select functions - ideal for use
in a car to use with OBD2.

you can do all that on an ipad pro too.

It isn't perfect, but imo it is far better
bang for the buck than a MacBook of similar age. I don't mind that it is
not as "cool". It's carbon fibre and metal and is robust, but I haven't
got a rickshaw to do that test.

That was your choice as is everyones perhaps MS couldn't afford the London or new york Symphony orchestras or employ John williams to write the startup sound.
So being on atight budget asked Eno with his Mac.
Surely there must have been musicans using PCs at the time and being 'better value'; there in theory should be many more of them.



Son has more money than me, so he has iPhone, iPad and Air. I am happy
with my Aldi Android and my Lenovo lappie. He does use small Windows
office based machines for his work.

Don't we all, I think that is because I sinned in a previous life or perhaps I will sin in my next life, I'm a technicain not a temporal mechanic.

I do have a Windows 8 tablet, but the less said about that the better,
and hardly ever use it.

I've a PC laptop, I tried using it a few times. It;s now used to prop up my bottom shelf in a wardrobe.


The big Porsche 4x4's will tow 3 tons, but I've never seen one doing
that. I don't know why people buy big 4x4's if they have no practical
reason. I did have a reason, but the boat is now with other son, so
considering my options. The space inside, the heated seats and wheel are
nice, though. Shame the inbuilt TV is pre digital, so just receives
hash.

Receives hash, so a drug dealers car ;-)

So your 4x4 is a 16 according to T i m. ;-)