"dennis@home" wrote in message
...
On 14/07/2018 21:58, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 14/07/18 20:09, Tim Watts wrote:
On 14/07/18 15:24, Brian Gaff wrote:
Yes I'm sure for once they can. I got the exact same info from a
metropolitan Police newsletter sent to our local neighbourhood watch.
The keyless systems, ie not the ones where you have to press the
button, but the ones that work on proximity have the car pinging and
seeing if a matching fob is nearby. Normally it is not, so the crims.
have two interlinked devices, the guy walks down the road and then when
he finds a car he knows has one of these opening systems, he records
its pinging and sends it to the person going down the row of houses,
when the person gets a ping back from a fob in a house, he then records
this and sends it to the other person who proceeds to get into the car.

The thing is, there is no non-action proximity device that you could not
insert a dumb relay between the key and the car.

Even if you have a normal challenge-response crypto system between Car
and Key, if you stick a relay device with two ends: A and B:


C=A----------------B=K

If A-B faithfully relay a copy of the signals (NFC, radio, it doesn't
matter) - there is no way C doesn't know it's not next to K


One time key solves that.

Rubbish.

Nope.

Good job you don't do security as you don't understand the problem in the
first place.

Those that understand the rolling code system do tho.

Same with the one time token used by apple pay and android/google pay.

Dave Plowman wrote:

And getting into the car isn't going to help much anyway. You could do
that by smashing a window.

It's a bit more noticeable

You'd still need the correct key with security
chip to actually start the car.

AIUI they pair their own key as an extra one for the car

On Sat, 14 Jul 2018 18:05:55 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
NY wrote:
Do they constantly transmit? I thought they were dormant until they
received an interrogation signal from the car - or from a thief's
cloning device.

Sort of makes sense. But can't be totally dormant if it can receive a
signal.

Is this whole keyless entry / start a solution to a problem that
didn't exist?

Our Meriva / Corsa have a std remote fob / key transponder where the
first opening button press unlocks just the drivers door (stops people
hiding down the passenger side jumping in) and a secondary press
unlocks all the doors / tailgate etc.

I think if you don't open a door within a certain period of unlocking
it locks all the doors again.

So, do keyless entry cars not have a mechanical steering lock?

With the 'std' keyed solution you can't get into the position of the
passenger getting out with the keyless card in their possession and I
don't think it can be hacked (I'm guessing it could be scanned to give
someone entry but that still wouldn't bypass the need for an ignition
key to defeat the steering lock (FWIW etc) or the transponder) as
easily as the keyless system.

I guess the only 'good thing' with keyless entry is that with some
cars you can also open the tailgate / boot with a wave of your foot
that could be handy if you were carrying stuff.

You still need a hand free to pull a door open so it's not an
advantage there (unless you have gesture triggered auto doors as
well)?

Cheers, T i m

"dennis@home" wrote in message
...
On 15/07/2018 07:22, Rod Speed wrote:
Harry Bloomfield wrote
The Natural Philosopher wrote

https://www.express.co.uk/life-style...olen-safety-UK

How can a key wrapped in tinfoil even open a car?

You misunderstood...

The key is read remotely by the thief, which then allows the thief to
send the correct code to the car, to open it, start it and drive it
away.

Not with rolling code systems which all cars use, they can't.

Owners keeping the keys in tinfoil, or a Faraday screen, prevents a
thief from remotely reading the key.

Keys don't get read.


Stop being TNP.
They use relays so the car and the key think they are together, the
bridges are transparent transport services.

For the really dumb (yes you rod) ....

the car sends its hello signal, the relay near the car sends it to the
thief near the door. His relay transmits the hello. There has been no
change to the signal.
The key sees the hello and sends its signal back.
The relays then return this signal back to the car. Again there has been
no change to the signal.
The car thinks the key is in the car.

The car and the key have no idea that this transparent bridge is between
them.

You could probably introduce some really tight timing between the events
to make it less likely but they don't and there would still be ways to get
around it. You could even do it with passive range extenders if you really
wanted to. Then you are down to the speed of light and how you measure it.

Trivial to do that.

"Andy Burns" wrote in message
...
Jack James wrote:

Tim Watts wrote:
They could have the most complex chat possible and it would make no
difference.

Yes there is. With a rolling code system, whatever the thief has captured
is no use later.

They don't capture it, they "repeat" it live to the car ... in theory they
could use the spare key at your house to open your car parked at the
airport ...

But it is trivial for the car to use the response time to check
if a transponder is doing it.

On 15/07/18 11:02, Jack James wrote:

They could have the most complex chat possible and it would make no
difference.

Yes there is. With a rolling code system, whatever the thief has captured
is no use later.


Read it again: There is no capture. This is a live link.

This will get the car opened and started.

My car will keep running without the key (but it will moan). Cracking
the car to program a new key is a separate problem but one that can be
done at leisure.

However, none of this matters if they just want to rob the contents,
nick the car for a use'n'dump (eg getaway car) or break it for parts.

On Sun, 15 Jul 2018 20:38:25 +1000, cantankerous geezer Rot Speed blabbered,
again:

Stop being TNP.
They use relays so the car and the key think they are together, the
bridges are transparent transport services.

For the really dumb (yes you rod) ....

the car sends its hello signal, the relay near the car sends it to the
thief near the door. His relay transmits the hello. There has been no
change to the signal.
The key sees the hello and sends its signal back.
The relays then return this signal back to the car. Again there has been
no change to the signal.
The car thinks the key is in the car.

The car and the key have no idea that this transparent bridge is between
them.

You could probably introduce some really tight timing between the events
to make it less likely but they don't and there would still be ways to get
around it. You could even do it with passive range extenders if you really
wanted to. Then you are down to the speed of light and how you measure it.

Trivial to do that.

You simply HAVE to open your stupid senile gob, regardless of what comes out
of it, eh, you lonesome, forsaken, senile oaf from Oz? tsk

--
Richard addressing Rot Speed:
"**** you're thick/pathetic excuse for a troll."
MID:

On 15/07/18 11:37, T i m wrote:
On Sat, 14 Jul 2018 18:05:55 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
NY wrote:
Do they constantly transmit? I thought they were dormant until they
received an interrogation signal from the car - or from a thief's
cloning device.

Sort of makes sense. But can't be totally dormant if it can receive a
signal.

Is this whole keyless entry / start a solution to a problem that
didn't exist?

Yes - like curved TVs and stupid phones with wrap around the edge
screens. Making things worse by "solving" a problem that didn't exist in
the first place.

My old MINI has the best idea - you clip the key in a holder on the dash.

"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 15 Jul 2018 09:08:57 +0100, Andy Burns
wrote:

snip

Maybe the crimmos down under haven't figured it out yet ...

I have watch some of those Police down under TV shows and I love the
way they have so many / alternative words that end in 'o'.

The most blatant being 'Bottle-o' ... and 'rego', 'servo' and 'ambo'

Same with peoples names too, tommo, davo, robbo, johno, speedo etc.

plus the others that don't but are possibly unique to Auz like
'carby', 'bingle' 'troppo' and 'ute'.

And pom, pov, leso etc.

The funny thing is hearing their Cops use such terms. ;-)

One of the earlier reality TV series had the cops in their
cars being recorded. One hell of a political stink about
them dropping the f bomb every second sentence but
charging members of the public when doing that.

In article ,
Andy Burns wrote:
Dave Plowman wrote:

And getting into the car isn't going to help much anyway. You could do
that by smashing a window.

It's a bit more noticeable

You'd still need the correct key with security
chip to actually start the car.

AIUI they pair their own key as an extra one for the car

To do that, you need access to the car and the correct software.

They'd either have to have the original key to get a new one cut - or full
details of the car to order one up from the maker's data. And then
programme it to the car.

(since I was discussing the older systems, not keyless)

Of course anything can be done. But the Jaguar/Land Rover keyless system
seems all too easy to clone.

--
*I didn't say it was your fault, I said I was blaming you.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Sun, 15 Jul 2018 11:51:03 +0100, Tim Watts
wrote:

On 15/07/18 11:37, T i m wrote:
On Sat, 14 Jul 2018 18:05:55 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
NY wrote:
Do they constantly transmit? I thought they were dormant until they
received an interrogation signal from the car - or from a thief's
cloning device.

Sort of makes sense. But can't be totally dormant if it can receive a
signal.

Is this whole keyless entry / start a solution to a problem that
didn't exist?

Yes - like curved TVs and stupid phones with wrap around the edge
screens. Making things worse by "solving" a problem that didn't exist in
the first place.

Yup.

My old MINI has the best idea - you clip the key in a holder on the dash.

By 'old' do you mean to your / BMW Mini as my mate has one of those
where you push the key into a hole in the dash?

Cheers, T i m

T i m wrote:

Is this whole keyless entry / start a solution to a problem that
didn't exist?

I think so, my car doesn't have keyless entry, but it does have keyless
start, I don't see the point, it just leaves you having to decide what
to do with the keys other than put them in the ignition ...

In article ,
T i m wrote:
On Sat, 14 Jul 2018 18:05:55 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
NY wrote:
Do they constantly transmit? I thought they were dormant until they
received an interrogation signal from the car - or from a thief's
cloning device.

Sort of makes sense. But can't be totally dormant if it can receive a
signal.

Is this whole keyless entry / start a solution to a problem that
didn't exist?

IMHO, yes.

Our Meriva / Corsa have a std remote fob / key transponder where the
first opening button press unlocks just the drivers door (stops people
hiding down the passenger side jumping in) and a secondary press
unlocks all the doors / tailgate etc.

For the truly paranoid. ;-)

I think if you don't open a door within a certain period of unlocking
it locks all the doors again.

Yup.

So, do keyless entry cars not have a mechanical steering lock?

They may have one, but if it is controlled by the same transponder in your
pocket that is so easy to clone, not much point. A traditional one
requires a physical key.

With the 'std' keyed solution you can't get into the position of the
passenger getting out with the keyless card in their possession and I
don't think it can be hacked (I'm guessing it could be scanned to give
someone entry but that still wouldn't bypass the need for an ignition
key to defeat the steering lock (FWIW etc) or the transponder) as
easily as the keyless system.

I guess the only 'good thing' with keyless entry is that with some
cars you can also open the tailgate / boot with a wave of your foot
that could be handy if you were carrying stuff.

You still need a hand free to pull a door open so it's not an
advantage there (unless you have gesture triggered auto doors as
well)?

Well plenty vehicles have motorised tailgates, so why not doors too?

I'm usually a bit ahead of gadget makers. The 'wouldn't it be nice'
syndrome. Which also means I can't really see the point of some of them.

So often they tend to end up being a compromise between what's really
needed and what can be achieved at a price. Like one of those things that
can play music for you on a voice command. Where the audio quality is
distinctly average.

--
*I feel like I'm diagonally parked in a parallel universe*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Sun, 15 Jul 2018 20:56:03 +1000, "Rod Speed"
wrote:

snip

And pom, pov, leso etc.

I was trying to remember if I heard them doing similar with the
recovery truck?

Cheers, T i m

Dave Plowman wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

AIUI they pair their own key as an extra one for the car

To do that, you need access to the car and the correct software.

Thieves seem to manage both of those

They'd either have to have the original key to get a new one cut - or full
details of the car to order one up from the maker's data. And then
programme it to the car.
How many cars use mechanical door/ignition locks? Even without keyless
entry and without keyless start my previous car just used the 'plipper'
to open doors and had a slot to push the key into ... the actual cut key
was basically for emergencies.

(since I was discussing the older systems, not keyless)

Of course anything can be done. But the Jaguar/Land Rover keyless system
seems all too easy to clone.

Dave Plowman wrote:

T i m wrote:

So, do keyless entry cars not have a mechanical steering lock?

They may have one, but if it is controlled by the same transponder in your
pocket that is so easy to clone, not much point. A traditional one
requires a physical key.

current car is keyless start, not keyless entry, has a solenoid based
steering lock.

previous car, not keyless at all, had a slot (rather than a mechanical
lock) that you pushed the transponder key into, and as well as solenoid
steering lock, it also wouldn't let go of the key until the ignition was
off.

prior to that all my other cars had actual mechanical ignition locks.

"Andy Burns" wrote in message
...
T i m wrote:

Is this whole keyless entry / start a solution to a problem that
didn't exist?

I think so, my car doesn't have keyless entry, but it does have keyless
start, I don't see the point, it just leaves you having to decide what to
do with the keys other than put them in the ignition ...

Leave them in your trouser pocket or handbag where you would keep them when
you weren't putting them in the ignition switch of a car that didn't have
keyless entry.

Keyless start may have a very small benefit. *Automatic* keyless unlocking
of doors (unless the user can disable it, requiring a manual press of the
button on the key) would seem to be a very big hijacking risk, especially
for women on their own, and also a risk of opportunist theft from the car as
the owner first comes into range.

NY wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

it just leaves you having to decide what to do with the keys other
than put them in the ignition ...

Leave them in your trouser pocket or handbag where you would keep them
when you weren't putting them in the ignition switch of a car that
didn't have keyless entry.

If I've got my big bunch with me, it's uncomfortable to shove them in a
pocket while driving. It sounds finicky, but after decades of getting
into a car, I automatically have the keys in my hand ready to do
something with them ...

*Automatic* keyless unlocking of doors (unless the user can disable
it, requiring a manual press of the button on the key) would seem to
be a very big hijacking risk, especially for women on their own, and
also a risk of opportunist theft from the car as the owner first
comes into range.
Mine isn't, so I don't know what the range is on keyless entry. I have
the car set for one press to unlock driver's door only, two presses for
passenger doors.

On 15/07/18 12:05, T i m wrote:
On Sun, 15 Jul 2018 11:51:03 +0100, Tim Watts
wrote:

On 15/07/18 11:37, T i m wrote:
On Sat, 14 Jul 2018 18:05:55 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
NY wrote:
Do they constantly transmit? I thought they were dormant until they
received an interrogation signal from the car - or from a thief's
cloning device.

Sort of makes sense. But can't be totally dormant if it can receive a
signal.

Is this whole keyless entry / start a solution to a problem that
didn't exist?

Yes - like curved TVs and stupid phones with wrap around the edge
screens. Making things worse by "solving" a problem that didn't exist in
the first place.

Yup.

My old MINI has the best idea - you clip the key in a holder on the dash.

By 'old' do you mean to your / BMW Mini as my mate has one of those
where you push the key into a hole in the dash?

Yes - I don't know what new MINIs do. But I should have said "BMW" not
Austen/Morris


Cheers, T i m

On 15/07/18 12:29, NY wrote:
"Andy Burns" wrote in message
...
T i m wrote:

Is this whole keyless entry / start a solution to a problem that
didn't exist?

I think so, my car doesn't have keyless entry, but it does have
keyless start, I don't see the point, it just leaves you having to
decide what to do with the keys other than put them in the ignition ...

Leave them in your trouser pocket or handbag where you would keep them
when you weren't putting them in the ignition switch of a car that
didn't have keyless entry.

Keyless start may have a very small benefit. *Automatic* keyless
unlocking of doors (unless the user can disable it, requiring a manual
press of the button on the key) would seem to be a very big hijacking
risk, especially for women on their own, and also a risk of opportunist
theft from the car as the owner first comes into range.

Like Samsung's stupid curved phone screens that make it impossible to
put a decent case on, nor hold without confusing the phone:

automatic door opening is something invented by retards.

My Tucson boot would open if you stood near it. Luckily you can disable
that ******** in the config.

Tim Watts wrote:

My Tucson boot would open if you stood near it.

Some estates allow you to wave your leg at the bumper to open the boot,
sounds useful if you've got your hands full ...

In article ,
Andy Burns wrote:
Dave Plowman wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

AIUI they pair their own key as an extra one for the car

To do that, you need access to the car and the correct software.

Thieves seem to manage both of those

There will always be clever thieves. The trick is to stay ahead of them as
much as possible. But if you allow a system to be in use where you can buy
a scanner cheaply which then allows you to steal the car, something is
very wrong. Including those who buy a car with such a system. And all of
the others who pay increased insurance premiums to cover the often total
loss of a near new vehicle being taken abroad to sell.

They'd either have to have the original key to get a new one cut - or full
details of the car to order one up from the maker's data. And then
programme it to the car.
How many cars use mechanical door/ignition locks? Even without keyless
entry and without keyless start my previous car just used the 'plipper'
to open doors and had a slot to push the key into ... the actual cut key
was basically for emergencies.

My newest car is a few years old. But has an actual key you put in the
ignition switch. And a chip in the fob which has to match the car. Both
must be correct to start it. Since so many are now keyless including some
lowish price types, I dunno what the norm is today.

(since I was discussing the older systems, not keyless)

Of course anything can be done. But the Jaguar/Land Rover keyless system
seems all too easy to clone.


--
*WHY ARE HEMORRHOIDS CALLED "HEMORRHOIDS" INSTEAD OF "ASTEROIDS"?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Andy Burns wrote:
Tim Watts wrote:

My Tucson boot would open if you stood near it.

Some estates allow you to wave your leg at the bumper to open the boot,
sounds useful if you've got your hands full ...

If you're so old you can't put things down, you'd likely fall over. ;-)

--
*Virtual reality is its own reward*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Sun, 15 Jul 2018 12:10:14 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

snip

You still need a hand free to pull a door open so it's not an
advantage there (unless you have gesture triggered auto doors as
well)?

Well plenty vehicles have motorised tailgates, so why not doors too?

I guess because they would also have to have proximity sensors on them
to stop them automatically opening onto another car?

Do the remote tailgates have such to stop them hitting low garage /
carpark ceilings?

I'm usually a bit ahead of gadget makers. The 'wouldn't it be nice'
syndrome. Which also means I can't really see the point of some of them.

Similar here.

So often they tend to end up being a compromise between what's really
needed and what can be achieved at a price. Like one of those things that
can play music for you on a voice command. Where the audio quality is
distinctly average.

Daughters Corsa (and our kitcar) sill have manual window winders and
they are a boon if the driver has jumped out, taken the keys and left
you sitting in the heat.

All the 23 years I had the Sierra Estate I can't remember ever
dreaming of electric windows (or electric sunroof or anything else
'electric' for that matter) and that made it KISS. ;-)

I can see the 'appeal' of key based personality for say the drivers
seat positions but even at 6'2" and her 5' 6", neither of us has
really had an issue adjusting the seat to suit and probably quicker
than any 'automatic' solution.

The only 'thing' that might test my 'comforts' level would be aircon
.... but typically only really an issue for a couple of weeks a year?

But then I'm also a 'motorcyclist' so am pretty used to only having
the basics (and only have a fuel gauge on one of my bikes and that's
the one aimed at car drivers / commuters (YP250 scooter)). ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On Sun, 15 Jul 2018 13:39:46 +0100, Tim Watts
wrote:

snip

My old MINI has the best idea - you clip the key in a holder on the dash.

By 'old' do you mean to your / BMW Mini as my mate has one of those
where you push the key into a hole in the dash?

Yes - I don't know what new MINIs do. But I should have said "BMW" not
Austen/Morris

I think it was because I have been longer on this planet with the
traditional Mini than I have the BMW offereing that I wouldn't refer
to any BMW Mini as 'old'.

I was trying to work out if the old Mini had, or could have been
retro-fitted with some clever key thingy but the only thing I could
think of was a secret switch that killed the electric fuel pump. ;-)

Our current car is a 14 year old Meriva and that still feels / seems
new compared to anything else we have had. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On Sun, 15 Jul 2018 12:42:05 +0100, Andy Burns wrote:

*Automatic* keyless unlocking of doors (unless the user can disable it,
requiring a manual press of the button on the key) would seem to be a
very big hijacking risk, especially for women on their own, and also a
risk of opportunist theft from the car as the owner first comes into
range.
Mine isn't, so I don't know what the range is on keyless entry. I have
the car set for one press to unlock driver's door only, two presses for
passenger doors.

On my car, it's no more than a metre.

--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

On Sun, 15 Jul 2018 08:37:49 +0100, Harry Bloomfield wrote:

I wasn't suggesting it would. My wallet is a back pocket folder, the
height of notes, but when the wallet is folded the notes are folded, as
is the foil. The foil is the full size of my wallet when open and
inserted in the outer note compartment.

Folded and in my pocket, my cards are tightly sandwiched on both sides
by foil. Does that explain it better?

I use an old half-ounce tobacco tin. Works for me; nice and compact.
Foil's not really thick enough. To get something properly RF-tight, you
need overlapping joints and no gaps.




--
This message may be freely reproduced without limit or charge only via
the Usenet protocol. Reproduction in whole or part through other
protocols, whether for profit or not, is conditional upon a charge of
GBP10.00 per reproduction. Publication in this manner via non-Usenet
protocols constitutes acceptance of this condition.

In message , T i m
writes
But then I'm also a 'motorcyclist' so am pretty used to only having the
basics (and only have a fuel gauge on one of my bikes and that's the
one aimed at car drivers / commuters (YP250 scooter)). ;-)

In the north, where men are men, our boat has passed every survey with a
translucent diesel tank, so you could see how much fuel was left and
whether there were any leaks etc. It is immensely strong and fitted
securely in a position where no-one could possible be thrown against it.

Son has taken it down to the Solent/IOW and been told it has to be boxed
in for elf'n'safety.

Once again, I think I have lived too long.
--
Bill

On 15/07/2018 10:45, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
dennis@home pretended :
You could probably introduce some really tight timing between the
events to make it less likely but they don't and there would still be
ways to get around it. You could even do it with passive range
extenders if you really wanted to. Then you are down to the speed of
light and how you measure it.

The extenders have to use store and forward, both cannot transmit at the
same time or the extender's reception would be swamped.

Rubbish, they can use different frequencies.

On 15/07/2018 11:38, Rod Speed wrote:


"dennis@home" wrote in message
...
On 15/07/2018 07:22, Rod Speed wrote:
Harry Bloomfield wrote
The Natural Philosopher wrote

https://www.express.co.uk/life-style...olen-safety-UK


How can a key wrapped in tinfoil even open a car?

You misunderstood...

The key is read remotely by the thief, which then allows the thief
to send the correct code to the car, to open it, start it and drive
it away.

Not with rolling code systems which all cars use, they can't.

Owners keeping the keys in tinfoil, or a Faraday screen, prevents a
thief from remotely reading the key.

Keys don't get read.


Stop being TNP.
They use relays so the car and the key think they are together, the
bridges are transparent transport services.

For the really dumb (yes you rod) ....

the car sends its hello signal, the relay near the car sends it to the
thief near the door. His relay transmits the hello. There has been no
change to the signal.
The key sees the hello and sends its signal back.
The relays then return this signal back to the car. Again there has
been no change to the signal.
The car thinks the key is in the car.

The car and the key have no idea that this transparent bridge is
between them.

You could probably introduce some really tight timing between the
events to make it less likely but they don't and there would still be
ways to get around it. You could even do it with passive range
extenders if you really wanted to. Then you are down to the speed of
light and how you measure it.

Trivial to do that.

Yet only a few posts ago you said they couldn't. Do make your mind up,
do you believe what TNP says or what is fact?

On 15/07/2018 11:37, T i m wrote:

So, do keyless entry cars not have a mechanical steering lock?

No,
they may have an electrically operated one or they wouldn't be keyless.

On 15/07/2018 11:06, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Andy Burns wrote:
Steve Walker wrote:

The car fobs that you press a button to operate use a rolling code
system to prevent the recording of a code as it is used and subsequent
playback.

I think that vulnerabilities in the rolling code system have been found
though.

Place a jammer near the car, so car doesn't receive properly, use a
device to capture code n from the remote, user notices car doesn't open,
presses button again, device captures code n+1, disable the jammer, play
back code n, car opens, thief keeps code n+1 for later use ...

But a lot more hassle than picking up a keyless entry code. Needs the key
holder to actually operate the system, before the code can be captured.

car and remote allow a 'window' of several rolling codes, so in practice
thief can capture n+2, n+3 etc codes ...

And getting into the car isn't going to help much anyway. You could do
that by smashing a window. You'd still need the correct key with security
chip to actually start the car.


Or use the programming port to do your own key.

On 15/07/2018 12:16, Andy Burns wrote:
Dave Plowman wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

AIUI they pair their own key as an extra one for the car

To do that, you need access to the car and the correct software.

Thieves seem to manage both of those

They'd either have to have the original key to get a new one cut - or
full
details of the car to order one up from the maker's data. And then
programme it to the car.
How many cars use mechanical door/ignition locks?Â* Even without keyless
entry and without keyless start my previous car just used the 'plipper'
to open doors and had a slot to push the key into ... the actual cut key
was basically for emergencies.

(since I was discussing the older systems, not keyless)

Of course anything can be done. But the Jaguar/Land Rover keyless system
seems all too easy to clone.



All my cars need a proper key to actually unlock the steering lock.
It just means they have to take a bit longer to break the lock if they
want to steal it.

"Andy Burns" wrote in message
...
T i m wrote:

Is this whole keyless entry / start a solution to a problem that
didn't exist?

I think so, my car doesn't have keyless entry, but it does have keyless
start, I don't see the point, it just leaves you having to decide what to
do with the keys other than put them in the ignition ...

Not when the system is well designed so it can work out when
its in the car, so you just leave the keys in your pocket and never
have to do anything with the keys. And that would allow the
same system with your phone so you dont have any keys at
all, just your phone, for the car and the house so that all you
have to do is ensure you have your phone with you. And that
is also very easy when you can't start the car at home without it.

And no harder to ensure that even with phone failure, it still
works fine with the micro device that you have in the phone
case, or keep in your pocket if you want to cover the situation
where the phone is stolen while you are out and about.

T i m wrote:

Dave Plowman wrote:

plenty vehicles have motorised tailgates, so why not doors too?

I guess because they would also have to have proximity sensors on them
to stop them automatically opening onto another car?

Do the remote tailgates have such to stop them hitting low garage /
carpark ceilings?

No, my previous estate had a power tailgate, whenever I had the roofrack
fitted I had to remember not to use the opener, or it would ram itself
into the roof rack, at least if you forgot you could stick your arm in
the way and it sensed the force you were pushing back at it, but it had
no proximity sensors to stop it hitting stuff.

"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 15 Jul 2018 20:56:03 +1000, "Rod Speed"
wrote:

snip

And pom, pov, leso etc.

I was trying to remember if I heard them doing similar with the
recovery truck?

If by recovery truck you mean what they use to get a car
or heavy vehicle back on the road after it has gone over
a small cliff or down an embankment into the river etc,
I can't think of any name like that used for those.

Usually just called a tow truck;. Hard to think
of a useful contraction for that, although the
person driving it is often called a towy.

We do that with bricklayers, but not carpenters.

Jack James wrote:

when the system is well designed so it can work out when
its in the car, so you just leave the keys in your pocket and never
have to do anything with the keys.

The car knows that, but it's taken me more that 6 weeks to n tget used
to it yet.

And that would allow the
same system with your phone so you dont have any keys at
all, just your phone,

Not many phones have 433MHz radios that the keys use, you can
lock/unlock the car from the phone over the internet with a PIN, but
it's a faff.

On Sun, 15 Jul 2018 17:07:02 +0100, "dennis@home"
wrote:

On 15/07/2018 11:37, T i m wrote:

So, do keyless entry cars not have a mechanical steering lock?

No,

I think you mean 'yes' ... ;-)

they may have an electrically operated one or they wouldn't be keyless.

So they do have a 'mechanical steering lock' (I was wondering if they
had one at all, given that it seems they can be defeated with brute
force etc) but it's operated electro mechanically. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

"NY" wrote in message
...
"Andy Burns" wrote in message
...
T i m wrote:

Is this whole keyless entry / start a solution to a problem that
didn't exist?

I think so, my car doesn't have keyless entry, but it does have keyless
start, I don't see the point, it just leaves you having to decide what to
do with the keys other than put them in the ignition ...

Leave them in your trouser pocket or handbag where you would keep them
when you weren't putting them in the ignition switch of a car that didn't
have keyless entry.

Keyless start may have a very small benefit. *Automatic* keyless unlocking
of doors (unless the user can disable it, requiring a manual press of the
button on the key) would seem to be a very big hijacking risk, especially
for women on their own,

But how much of that sort of hijacking is actually seen ?

Tho I spose you can make a case that if most cars had
that sort of system, there would be a lot more of it.

and also a risk of opportunist theft from the car as the owner first comes
into range.

Trivially fixed by limiting the range so that
you have to be next to the car to get in.

On Sun, 15 Jul 2018 19:27:05 +0100, Andy Burns
wrote:

T i m wrote:

Dave Plowman wrote:

plenty vehicles have motorised tailgates, so why not doors too?

I guess because they would also have to have proximity sensors on them
to stop them automatically opening onto another car?

Do the remote tailgates have such to stop them hitting low garage /
carpark ceilings?

No, my previous estate had a power tailgate, whenever I had the roofrack
fitted I had to remember not to use the opener, or it would ram itself
into the roof rack, at least if you forgot you could stick your arm in
the way and it sensed the force you were pushing back at it, but it had
no proximity sensors to stop it hitting stuff.

Ok, thanks, I had wondered 'what if'.

Cheers, T i m