https://www.express.co.uk/life-style...olen-safety-UK

How can a key wrapped in tinfoil even open a car?


--
There is nothing a fleet of dispatchable nuclear power plants cannot do
that cannot be done worse and more expensively and with higher carbon
emissions and more adverse environmental impact by adding intermittent
renewable energy.

The Natural Philosopher pretended :

https://www.express.co.uk/life-style...olen-safety-UK

How can a key wrapped in tinfoil even open a car?

You misunderstood...

The key is read remotely by the thief, which then allows the thief to
send the correct code to the car, to open it, start it and drive it
away. Owners keeping the keys in tinfoil, or a Faraday screen, prevents
a thief from remotely reading the key.

Likewise, the contactless debit/credit cards, they can be remotely
scanned and the data used to make purchases by thieves. I keep my cards
in my wallet, inserted into the outer pocket of which, is a sheet of
metal foil.

On 14/07/2018 15:04, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
The Natural Philosopher pretended :

https://www.express.co.uk/life-style...olen-safety-UK


How can a key wrapped in tinfoil even open a car?

You misunderstood...

The key is read remotely by the thief, which then allows the thief to
send the correct code to the car, to open it, start it and drive it
away. Owners keeping the keys in tinfoil, or a Faraday screen, prevents
a thief from remotely reading the key.

Likewise, the contactless debit/credit cards, they can be remotely
scanned and the data used to make purchases by thieves. I keep my cards
in my wallet, inserted into the outer pocket of which, is a sheet of
metal foil.

That won't stop the RF.

Bill

Total enclosure is the only way and even then if the transmitter is powerful
or the receiver very sensitive it might still get through. Perhaps we all
need switchable jammers on our person.
Brian

--
From the Sofa of Brian Gaff Reply address is active
Remember, if you don't like where I post
or what I say, you don't have to
read my posts! :-)
"Bill Wright" wrote in message
news
On 14/07/2018 15:04, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
The Natural Philosopher pretended :

https://www.express.co.uk/life-style...olen-safety-UK

How can a key wrapped in tinfoil even open a car?

You misunderstood...

The key is read remotely by the thief, which then allows the thief to
send the correct code to the car, to open it, start it and drive it away.
Owners keeping the keys in tinfoil, or a Faraday screen, prevents a thief
from remotely reading the key.

Likewise, the contactless debit/credit cards, they can be remotely
scanned and the data used to make purchases by thieves. I keep my cards
in my wallet, inserted into the outer pocket of which, is a sheet of
metal foil.

That won't stop the RF.

Bill

Bill Wright has brought this to us :
That won't stop the RF.

It will stop the majority, more than enough to defeat a thief. Try it
with your car key.

On 14/07/2018 16:10, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Bill Wright has brought this to us :
That won't stop the RF.

It will stop the majority, more than enough to defeat a thief. Try it
with your car key.

A flat plate on one site of the tx will not prevent transmission.

Bill

Bill Wright explained on 15/07/2018 :
A flat plate on one site of the tx will not prevent transmission.

I wasn't suggesting it would. My wallet is a back pocket folder, the
height of notes, but when the wallet is folded the notes are folded, as
is the foil. The foil is the full size of my wallet when open and
inserted in the outer note compartment.

Folded and in my pocket, my cards are tightly sandwiched on both sides
by foil. Does that explain it better?

In article ,
Bill Wright wrote:
On 14/07/2018 15:04, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
The Natural Philosopher pretended :

https://www.express.co.uk/life-style...olen-safety-UK


How can a key wrapped in tinfoil even open a car?

You misunderstood...

The key is read remotely by the thief, which then allows the thief to
send the correct code to the car, to open it, start it and drive it
away. Owners keeping the keys in tinfoil, or a Faraday screen,
prevents a thief from remotely reading the key.

Likewise, the contactless debit/credit cards, they can be remotely
scanned and the data used to make purchases by thieves. I keep my
cards in my wallet, inserted into the outer pocket of which, is a
sheet of metal foil.

That won't stop the RF.

Quite. Neighbour had a car stolen and never recovered. The infamous
Jaguar/Land Rover keyless entry.

They now keep the keys in a 'safe' bought specifically to screen them.
Quite a substantial device. And earthed.

--
*Do infants enjoy infancy as much as adults enjoy adultery?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 14/07/2018 17:44, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Bill Wright wrote:
On 14/07/2018 15:04, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
The Natural Philosopher pretended :

https://www.express.co.uk/life-style...olen-safety-UK


How can a key wrapped in tinfoil even open a car?

You misunderstood...

The key is read remotely by the thief, which then allows the thief to
send the correct code to the car, to open it, start it and drive it
away. Owners keeping the keys in tinfoil, or a Faraday screen,
prevents a thief from remotely reading the key.

Likewise, the contactless debit/credit cards, they can be remotely
scanned and the data used to make purchases by thieves. I keep my
cards in my wallet, inserted into the outer pocket of which, is a
sheet of metal foil.

That won't stop the RF.

Quite. Neighbour had a car stolen and never recovered. The infamous
Jaguar/Land Rover keyless entry.

They now keep the keys in a 'safe' bought specifically to screen them.
Quite a substantial device. And earthed.


Just put them in a biscuit tin.

dennis@home expressed precisely :
Just put them in a biscuit tin.

Exactly !

Some people get some rather peculiar ideas..

On 14/07/2018 19:34, dennis@home wrote:

Just put them in a biscuit tin.



With conductive bonding all the way round the lid.
Any slit or slot or other discontinuity will let RF through. I have a
van with no rear windows and a metal bulkhead and RF gets into the back
with no trouble.

Bill

Dave Plowman (News) brought next idea :
That won't stop the RF.

Quite. Neighbour had a car stolen and never recovered. The infamous
Jaguar/Land Rover keyless entry.

They now keep the keys in a 'safe' bought specifically to screen them.
Quite a substantial device. And earthed.

Well, if that makes them feel their car is secure...

On 14/07/2018 15:35, Bill Wright wrote:
On 14/07/2018 15:04, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
The Natural Philosopher pretended :

https://www.express.co.uk/life-style...olen-safety-UK


How can a key wrapped in tinfoil even open a car?

You misunderstood...

The key is read remotely by the thief, which then allows the thief to
send the correct code to the car, to open it, start it and drive it
away. Owners keeping the keys in tinfoil, or a Faraday screen,
prevents a thief from remotely reading the key.

Likewise, the contactless debit/credit cards, they can be remotely
scanned and the data used to make purchases by thieves. I keep my
cards in my wallet, inserted into the outer pocket of which, is a
sheet of metal foil.

That won't stop the RF.

Bill

But card clash will prevent any of the cards responding
correctly (assuming more than 1 card in close proximity).

The Natural Philosopher pretended :

https://www.express.co.uk/life-style...olen-safety-UK

How can a key wrapped in tinfoil even open a car?


I defy anyone on the group to purchase tin foil on their local high street !

(they will undoubtedly be able to buy ALUMINIUM foil used for cooking)

Loose terminology leads to confusion not education

Andrew

On 14/07/2018 15:58, Andrew Mawson wrote:


The Natural Philosopher pretended :

https://www.express.co.uk/life-style...olen-safety-UK


How can a key wrapped in tinfoil even open a car?


I defy anyone on the group to purchase tin foil on their local high
street !

(they will undoubtedly be able to buy ALUMINIUM foil used for cooking)

Loose terminology leads to confusion not education

Andrew

Aluminium foil should be better than tinfoil, though: higher
conductivity. Although IIRC tinfoil was probably thicker.

newshound wrote:
On 14/07/2018 15:58, Andrew Mawson wrote:


The Natural Philosopher pretended :

https://www.express.co.uk/life-style...olen-safety-UK


How can a key wrapped in tinfoil even open a car?


I defy anyone on the group to purchase tin foil on their local high
street !

(they will undoubtedly be able to buy ALUMINIUM foil used for cooking)

Loose terminology leads to confusion not education

Andrew

Aluminium foil should be better than tinfoil, though: higher
conductivity. Although IIRC tinfoil was probably thicker.
Where do you get tin foil and what is it used for now?

On 16/07/2018 06:46, FMurtz wrote:
newshound wrote:
On 14/07/2018 15:58, Andrew Mawson wrote:


The Natural Philosopher pretended :

https://www.express.co.uk/life-style...olen-safety-UK


How can a key wrapped in tinfoil even open a car?


I defy anyone on the group to purchase tin foil on their local high
street !

(they will undoubtedly be able to buy ALUMINIUM foil used for cooking)

Loose terminology leads to confusion not education

Andrew

Aluminium foil should be better than tinfoil, though: higher
conductivity. Although IIRC tinfoil was probably thicker.
Where do you get tin foil and what is it used for now?


Its used against the old satellites with valves in them as it works
better on the old stuff than this new fangled aluminium foil.

I could tell you where to get it but the mind control satellites appear
to be stopping me from remembering where.

On 16/07/2018 06:46, FMurtz wrote:
newshound wrote:
On 14/07/2018 15:58, Andrew Mawson wrote:


The Natural Philosopher pretended :

https://www.express.co.uk/life-style...olen-safety-UK


How can a key wrapped in tinfoil even open a car?


I defy anyone on the group to purchase tin foil on their local high
street !

(they will undoubtedly be able to buy ALUMINIUM foil used for cooking)

Loose terminology leads to confusion not education

Andrew

Aluminium foil should be better than tinfoil, though: higher
conductivity. Although IIRC tinfoil was probably thicker.
Where do you get tin foil and what is it used for now?

making hats ?

On Sat, 14 Jul 2018 15:58:26 +0100, "Andrew Mawson"
wrote:



The Natural Philosopher pretended :

https://www.express.co.uk/life-style...olen-safety-UK

How can a key wrapped in tinfoil even open a car?


I defy anyone on the group to purchase tin foil on their local high street !

(they will undoubtedly be able to buy ALUMINIUM foil used for cooking)

Loose terminology leads to confusion not education


Who knows why aluminium foil is only shiny on one side (without
cheating)? ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On 16/07/2018 21:00, T i m wrote:
On Sat, 14 Jul 2018 15:58:26 +0100, "Andrew Mawson"
wrote:



The Natural Philosopher pretended :

https://www.express.co.uk/life-style...olen-safety-UK

How can a key wrapped in tinfoil even open a car?


I defy anyone on the group to purchase tin foil on their local high street !

(they will undoubtedly be able to buy ALUMINIUM foil used for cooking)

Loose terminology leads to confusion not education


Who knows why aluminium foil is only shiny on one side (without
cheating)? ;-)

Cheers, T i m


Apparently because people like it like this.
We won't get into an argument about rollers will we?

On Mon, 16 Jul 2018 22:02:11 +0100, "dennis@home"
wrote:

snip

Who knows why aluminium foil is only shiny on one side (without
cheating)? ;-)


Apparently because people like it like this.

Some don't, they think there is a right way round to use it. ;-)

We won't get into an argument about rollers will we?

;-)

Cheers, T i m

On 14/07/18 15:04, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
The Natural Philosopher pretended :

https://www.express.co.uk/life-style...olen-safety-UK


How can a key wrapped in tinfoil even open a car?

You misunderstood...

The key is read remotely by the thief, which then allows the thief to
send the correct code to the car, to open it, start it and drive it
away. Owners keeping the keys in tinfoil, or a Faraday screen, prevents
a thief from remotely reading the key.


So how does the thief read a key that doesnt transmit? Until you press
the wotsit?


Likewise, the contactless debit/credit cards, they can be remotely
scanned and the data used to make purchases by thieves. I keep my cards
in my wallet, inserted into the outer pocket of which, is a sheet of
metal foil.


--
Future generations will wonder in bemused amazement that the early
twenty-first centurys developed world went into hysterical panic over a
globally average temperature increase of a few tenths of a degree, and,
on the basis of gross exaggerations of highly uncertain computer
projections combined into implausible chains of inference, proceeded to
contemplate a rollback of the industrial age.

Richard Lindzen

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

how does the thief read a key that doesnt transmit? Until you press the
wotsit?

Keyless entry constantly transmits, you just keep it in your pocket, no
pressing to enter or start.

On 14/07/18 16:38, Andy Burns wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

how does the thief read a key that doesnt transmit? Until you press
the wotsit?

Keyless entry constantly transmits, you just keep it in your pocket, no
pressing to enter or start.

Ah. THOSE things. yep. seen those. Not a great idea

--
"Socialist governments traditionally do make a financial mess. They
always run out of other people's money. It's quite a characteristic of them"

Margaret Thatcher

"Andy Burns" wrote in message
...
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

how does the thief read a key that doesnt transmit? Until you press the
wotsit?

Keyless entry constantly transmits, you just keep it in your pocket, no
pressing to enter or start.

Do they constantly transmit? I thought they were dormant until they received
an interrogation signal from the car - or from a thief's cloning device. I
think also most keys transmit a unique code (different every time the car
challenges the key) to turn off the immobiliser - so even if the key's
serrations or the electronic unlock/start code work, there is a second line
of defence that will not admit fuel to the engine. Evidently whatever
technology car thieves use can also cope with the unique rolling immobiliser
code.

NY wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

Keyless entry constantly transmits

Do they constantly transmit?

Maybe the car constantly transmits and key constantly listens and
responds when they 'hear' the car, either way thieves have worked out
ways and means ... hence the recommendations for a biscuit tin in the
hallway to put keys into.

In article ,
NY wrote:
Do they constantly transmit? I thought they were dormant until they
received an interrogation signal from the car - or from a thief's
cloning device.

Sort of makes sense. But can't be totally dormant if it can receive a
signal.

--
*INDECISION is the key to FLEXIBILITY *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"NY" wrote in message
o.uk...
"Andy Burns" wrote in message
...
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

how does the thief read a key that doesnt transmit? Until you press the
wotsit?

Keyless entry constantly transmits, you just keep it in your pocket, no
pressing to enter or start.

Do they constantly transmit? I thought they were dormant until they
received an interrogation signal from the car - or from a thief's cloning
device. I think also most keys transmit a unique code (different every
time the car challenges the key) to turn off the immobiliser - so even if
the key's serrations or the electronic unlock/start code work, there is a
second line of defence that will not admit fuel to the engine. Evidently
whatever technology car thieves use can also cope with the unique rolling
immobiliser code.

That last isnt possible.

Andy Burns wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

how does the thief read a key that doesnt transmit? Until you press
the wotsit?

Keyless entry constantly transmits, you just keep it in your pocket, no
pressing to enter or start.
No it does not continuously transmit.

It only responds when illuminated by a specific RF signal

On 14/07/2018 16:38, Andy Burns wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

how does the thief read a key that doesnt transmit? Until you press
the wotsit?

Keyless entry constantly transmits,

Can't do. It would run the battery down. They must receive a signal from
the car.

Bill

"Andy Burns" wrote in message
...
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

how does the thief read a key that doesnt transmit? Until you press the
wotsit?

Keyless entry constantly transmits,

a solution looking for a problem.

it was always destined to end in tears

tim

In article , Andy Burns
writes
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

how does the thief read a key that doesnt transmit? Until you press
the wotsit?

Keyless entry constantly transmits, you just keep it in your pocket, no
pressing to enter or start.
It's much easier just to plug in to the usb port under the front wing -
at least on some high spec cars.
--
bert

In article ,
bert wrote:
In article , Andy Burns
writes
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

how does the thief read a key that doesnt transmit? Until you press
the wotsit?

Keyless entry constantly transmits, you just keep it in your pocket, no
pressing to enter or start.
It's much easier just to plug in to the usb port under the front wing -
at least on some high spec cars.

A USB port exposed to the elements? Good luck with that.

--
*I started out with nothing... and I still have most of it.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

The Natural Philosopher was thinking very hard :
So how does the thief read a key that doesnt transmit? Until you press the
wotsit?

Some keys are passive and can be interrogated by the car. In fact most
modern car keys have a tiny chip built into them, which has no button,
no power needed, which responds to interrogation by the ignition lock.
The chip is the size of a grain of rice.

On 14/07/2018 16:36, The Natural Philosopher wrote:


So how does the thief read a key that doesnt transmit? Until you press
the wotsit?


The modern world has cars with keyless entry.
they transmit when they receive a signal from the car.
the thieves use a radio relay to trick the car into thinking the key is
there.
Then they press the start button and drive off.
The car won't turn off when the key is out of range for safety reasons.

Its hardly surprising you are having trouble understanding if you don't
read the bit where it says keyless entry.

Harry Bloomfield wrote
The Natural Philosopher wrote

https://www.express.co.uk/life-style...olen-safety-UK

How can a key wrapped in tinfoil even open a car?

You misunderstood...

The key is read remotely by the thief, which then allows the thief to send
the correct code to the car, to open it, start it and drive it away.

Not with rolling code systems which all cars use, they can't.

Owners keeping the keys in tinfoil, or a Faraday screen, prevents a thief
from remotely reading the key.

Keys don't get read.

Likewise, the contactless debit/credit cards, they can be remotely scanned
and the data used to make purchases by thieves. I keep my cards in my
wallet, inserted into the outer pocket of which, is a sheet of metal foil.

Makes more sense to use apple pay or google/android pay instead.
Those can't be read by anyone.

On 15/07/2018 07:22, Rod Speed wrote:
Harry Bloomfield wrote
The Natural Philosopher wrote

https://www.express.co.uk/life-style...olen-safety-UK


How can a key wrapped in tinfoil even open a car?

You misunderstood...

The key is read remotely by the thief, which then allows the thief to
send the correct code to the car, to open it, start it and drive it away.

Not with rolling code systems which all cars use, they can't.

Owners keeping the keys in tinfoil, or a Faraday screen, prevents a
thief from remotely reading the key.

Keys don't get read.


Stop being TNP.
They use relays so the car and the key think they are together, the
bridges are transparent transport services.

For the really dumb (yes you rod) ....

the car sends its hello signal, the relay near the car sends it to the
thief near the door. His relay transmits the hello. There has been no
change to the signal.
The key sees the hello and sends its signal back.
The relays then return this signal back to the car. Again there has been
no change to the signal.
The car thinks the key is in the car.

The car and the key have no idea that this transparent bridge is between
them.

You could probably introduce some really tight timing between the events
to make it less likely but they don't and there would still be ways to
get around it. You could even do it with passive range extenders if you
really wanted to. Then you are down to the speed of light and how you
measure it.

dennis@home pretended :
You could probably introduce some really tight timing between the events to
make it less likely but they don't and there would still be ways to get
around it. You could even do it with passive range extenders if you really
wanted to. Then you are down to the speed of light and how you measure it.

The extenders have to use store and forward, both cannot transmit at
the same time or the extender's reception would be swamped.

On 15/07/2018 10:45, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
dennis@home pretended :
You could probably introduce some really tight timing between the
events to make it less likely but they don't and there would still be
ways to get around it. You could even do it with passive range
extenders if you really wanted to. Then you are down to the speed of
light and how you measure it.

The extenders have to use store and forward, both cannot transmit at the
same time or the extender's reception would be swamped.

Rubbish, they can use different frequencies.

"dennis@home" wrote in message
...
On 15/07/2018 07:22, Rod Speed wrote:
Harry Bloomfield wrote
The Natural Philosopher wrote

https://www.express.co.uk/life-style...olen-safety-UK

How can a key wrapped in tinfoil even open a car?

You misunderstood...

The key is read remotely by the thief, which then allows the thief to
send the correct code to the car, to open it, start it and drive it
away.

Not with rolling code systems which all cars use, they can't.

Owners keeping the keys in tinfoil, or a Faraday screen, prevents a
thief from remotely reading the key.

Keys don't get read.


Stop being TNP.
They use relays so the car and the key think they are together, the
bridges are transparent transport services.

For the really dumb (yes you rod) ....

the car sends its hello signal, the relay near the car sends it to the
thief near the door. His relay transmits the hello. There has been no
change to the signal.
The key sees the hello and sends its signal back.
The relays then return this signal back to the car. Again there has been
no change to the signal.
The car thinks the key is in the car.

The car and the key have no idea that this transparent bridge is between
them.

You could probably introduce some really tight timing between the events
to make it less likely but they don't and there would still be ways to get
around it. You could even do it with passive range extenders if you really
wanted to. Then you are down to the speed of light and how you measure it.

Trivial to do that.