The Other Mike wrote:
On Mon, 14 Jul 2014 09:05:37 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

I was talking to a friend of a friend in a pub and he claimed that when he left school, he did an apprenticeship as a welder and that he worked as one for several years. Okay, no problem.

The chap then told of high times and much money made when welding using solid silver rods. He said that when the rods were spent, he and co workers would pocket the stub ends for selling as silver scrap. Most of the prior conversation concerned arc welding, so I assume that is the flavour of work he was referring to.

Silver solder is commonly around 60 - 75% Silver and rarely ever higher. Items
that subsequently require hallmarking need to be 65% or higher. The higher the
silver content the better the colour match but joint gaps should be thin enough
to be near invisible anyway.

The silver solder that plumbers use for copper pipe is usually only 2%
silver


A competent welder makes enough money such that buggering about flogging scrap
rod is pointless.


Later, he elaborated on the extent of his welding skills by claiming that he could weld aluminium foil.

That is possible with tig welding *if* you are very good

Both of the above strike me as bull****, especially in the context of industrial applications, being the claimed field of expertise. I could perhaps imagine some fancy jewelers being able to do something along the lines of what was claimed.

So, was this all clearly bull****, or could there be a grain of truth somewhere?

If he claims he was a welder a good check is to see if he has a daughter and no
sons (a standard test that is quite accurate)

On 16/07/14 05:29, F Murtz wrote:


The silver solder that plumbers use for copper pipe is usually only 2%
silver

Plumbers don't use silver solder for copper pipe.





--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

On Wed, 16 Jul 2014 14:29:15 +1000, F Murtz wrote:

The Other Mike wrote:

Silver solder is commonly around 60 - 75% Silver and rarely ever higher. Items
that subsequently require hallmarking need to be 65% or higher. The higher the
silver content the better the colour match but joint gaps should be thin enough
to be near invisible anyway.

The silver solder that plumbers use for copper pipe is usually only 2%
silver

Can't for the life of me think of any application where a plumber rather than
say a boiler manufacturer would need to use silver solder and especially one
with such low silver content

The low melting point solder I very occasionally use on some electronic circuit
boards contains 2% silver (the remainder being 62% tin 36 % lead) There are
also a number of high melting point soft solders containing the same amount of
silver with the remainder being nearly all (90% +) lead and a very small
quantity of tin.
--

On Wednesday, July 16, 2014 5:40:03 AM UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 16/07/14 05:29, F Murtz wrote:



The silver solder that plumbers use for copper pipe is usually only 2%
silver

Plumbers don't use silver solder for copper pipe.
On the other hand refrigeration engineers do commonly braze or hard solder*
copper pipes, so they may sometimes use silver containing alloys.
*delete whichever term you disagree with :-)

On 16/07/2014 13:30, wrote:
On Wednesday, July 16, 2014 5:40:03 AM UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 16/07/14 05:29, F Murtz wrote:



The silver solder that plumbers use for copper pipe is usually only 2%
silver

Plumbers don't use silver solder for copper pipe.
On the other hand refrigeration engineers do commonly braze or hard solder*
copper pipes, so they may sometimes use silver containing alloys.
*delete whichever term you disagree with :-)

Occasionally they do. I'm a retired plumber and on a few sites in London
it was stipulated that silver solder must be used.

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 16/07/14 05:29, F Murtz wrote:


The silver solder that plumbers use for copper pipe is usually only 2%
silver

Plumbers don't use silver solder for copper pipe.





You must have strange plumbing practices or a different set of words.

Look at the first one mentioned.
http://www.metalspraysupplies.com/ms...lversolder.pdf

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 16/07/14 05:29, F Murtz wrote:


The silver solder that plumbers use for copper pipe is usually only 2%
silver

Plumbers don't use silver solder for copper pipe.





It is extremely common in Australia and I can not believe that it is not
in UK by professionals.
There is a whole range of fittings made specifically for the purpose.
Home handymen have a different range of fittings with a band of soft
solder in them, professionals do sometimes soft solder when they can't
get their oxy near(or mapp gas in a pinch)

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 16/07/14 05:29, F Murtz wrote:


The silver solder that plumbers use for copper pipe is usually only 2%
silver

Plumbers don't use silver solder for copper pipe.

Quite common.
It depends what's in the pipe.

"The Other Mike" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 16 Jul 2014 14:29:15 +1000, F Murtz wrote:

The Other Mike wrote:

Silver solder is commonly around 60 - 75% Silver and rarely ever higher.
Items
that subsequently require hallmarking need to be 65% or higher. The
higher the
silver content the better the colour match but joint gaps should be thin
enough
to be near invisible anyway.

The silver solder that plumbers use for copper pipe is usually only 2%
silver

Can't for the life of me think of any application where a plumber rather
than
say a boiler manufacturer would need to use silver solder and especially
one
with such low silver content


Commonly used in refrigeration and other compressed gases.

Also for large diameter copper pipes.

In article om,
F Murtz wrote:
Plumbers don't use silver solder for copper pipe.





It is extremely common in Australia and I can not believe that it is not
in UK by professionals.

For domestic use on domestic water systems and central heating, etc? No
need - 'ordinary' solder is quite strong enough. Could be different on a
high pressure system like air conditioning.

Of course lead free is the norm on potable water piping now.

--
*The modem is the message *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 16/07/14 13:30, wrote:
On Wednesday, July 16, 2014 5:40:03 AM UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 16/07/14 05:29, F Murtz wrote:



The silver solder that plumbers use for copper pipe is usually only 2%
silver

Plumbers don't use silver solder for copper pipe.
On the other hand refrigeration engineers

Refrigeration engineers are not 'plumbers'

Neither are people repairing car radiators, making model steam engines
or constructing artistic sculptures.



do commonly braze or hard solder*
copper pipes, so they may sometimes use silver containing alloys.
*delete whichever term you disagree with :-)



--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

On 16/07/14 14:41, F Murtz wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 16/07/14 05:29, F Murtz wrote:


The silver solder that plumbers use for copper pipe is usually only 2%
silver

Plumbers don't use silver solder for copper pipe.





You must have strange plumbing practices or a different set of words.

Look at the first one mentioned.
http://www.metalspraysupplies.com/ms...lversolder.pdf

2% silver is not 'silver solder' except to people in marketing.



--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

On 16/07/14 14:50, F Murtz wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 16/07/14 05:29, F Murtz wrote:


The silver solder that plumbers use for copper pipe is usually only 2%
silver

Plumbers don't use silver solder for copper pipe.





It is extremely common in Australia and I can not believe that it is not
in UK by professionals.
There is a whole range of fittings made specifically for the purpose.
Home handymen have a different range of fittings with a band of soft
solder in them, professionals do sometimes soft solder when they can't
get their oxy near(or mapp gas in a pinch)

Soft solder is not silver solder.

It used to be lead/tin but now we have gone lead free its mainly tin
IIRC copper and a little silver to help it flow by messing around with
the alloys eutectic wotsits.

The term SILVER solder refers to a calls of hard high temperature
solders with much higher silver content that are not used in plumbing
applications.


--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 16/07/14 14:50, F Murtz wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 16/07/14 05:29, F Murtz wrote:


The silver solder that plumbers use for copper pipe is usually only 2%
silver

Plumbers don't use silver solder for copper pipe.





It is extremely common in Australia and I can not believe that it is not
in UK by professionals.
There is a whole range of fittings made specifically for the purpose.
Home handymen have a different range of fittings with a band of soft
solder in them, professionals do sometimes soft solder when they can't
get their oxy near(or mapp gas in a pinch)

Soft solder is not silver solder.
As I have been trying to explain

It used to be lead/tin but now we have gone lead free its mainly tin
IIRC copper and a little silver to help it flow by messing around with
the alloys eutectic wotsits.

The term SILVER solder refers to a calls of hard high temperature
solders with much higher silver content that are not used in plumbing
applications.
Silver solder is a term that manufactures use to describe a high temp
harder product that ranges from 2% to a very high percentage of silver
Most home handymen use soft solder because it is easier to melt,
plumbers use both, depending on how permanent they want or whether the
contractor has specified. Plumbers mostly use 2% sometimes 5% it is
extremely easy to use if you have oxy acetylene it need no flux copper
to copper unless copper to brass

It is strange that this news group seems to have a smattering of most
trades except plumbers that contribute.

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 16/07/14 14:41, F Murtz wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 16/07/14 05:29, F Murtz wrote:


The silver solder that plumbers use for copper pipe is usually only 2%
silver

Plumbers don't use silver solder for copper pipe.





You must have strange plumbing practices or a different set of words.

Look at the first one mentioned.
http://www.metalspraysupplies.com/ms...lversolder.pdf

2% silver is not 'silver solder' except to people in marketing.



Not in to semantics in this instance.
It is sold as 2% silver solder and is bought by plumbers and called
silver solder by them and used to join copper whenever they want a top
shelf job.
Personally whenever I join copper where It can not be got at again and I
do not want it to fail as I have seen so many soft solder joints do I
use that erroneously called (by you)silver solder
I just asked my plumber son and all the work he does now specify silver
solder often 5% but they cheat and use 2%.
All commercial work, units blocks of flats and industrial use silver
solder most plumbers use silver solder, in some domestic houses a few
may use soft solder
this 2% and 5% silver solder is called silver solder by the makers the
sellers and the users.
I do not believe the UK differs much unless they still work in dark age
practices
Please ask any plumbing relatives or acquaintances you may have and
prove me wrong.

On Thursday, 17 July 2014 08:08:10 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:


The term SILVER solder refers to a calls of hard high temperature
solders with much higher silver content that are not used in plumbing
applications.

We've just brought some silver ink, we've had siler paint and silver epoxy in before, not the sort of stuff DIYers might use as it contains real silver as it has to conduct electricity rather than just be a colour choice.

In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
We've just brought some silver ink, we've had siler paint and silver
epoxy in before, not the sort of stuff DIYers might use as it contains
real silver as it has to conduct electricity rather than just be a
colour choice.

Is that similar to the 'paint' used to repair a broken track on a car
heated rear window etc? Pricey stuff.

--
*Why are they called apartments, when they're all stuck together? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 16/07/2014 14:50, F Murtz wrote:
It is extremely common in Australia and I can not believe that it is not
in UK by professionals.

If plumbers did actually use silver solder (of whatever percentage
silver content), you'd expect them to be able to buy the stuff in
plumbers' merchants, would you not?

Funny how BES and Screwfix don't appear to sell it. (Of course, maybe I
am simply crap at finding it.)

--
Rod

polygonum wrote:
On 16/07/2014 14:50, F Murtz wrote:
It is extremely common in Australia and I can not believe that it is not
in UK by professionals.

If plumbers did actually use silver solder (of whatever percentage
silver content), you'd expect them to be able to buy the stuff in
plumbers' merchants, would you not?

Funny how BES and Screwfix don't appear to sell it. (Of course, maybe I
am simply crap at finding it.)



May be plumbers buy their stuff at plumbing wholesalers and not at
general hardware shops, or if screwfix etc are trade suppliers you are
not looking hard enough
I can not imagine that the UK is so different to here
Anywhere copper is used on new flats, units or multistory living spaces
5% or 2% silver is specified,Small single dwellings now seem to be going
plastic but if copper is used it is silver soldered
Why don't you do what I suggested and ask a real plumber?

On 17/07/14 22:35, polygonum wrote:
On 16/07/2014 14:50, F Murtz wrote:
It is extremely common in Australia and I can not believe that it is not
in UK by professionals.

If plumbers did actually use silver solder (of whatever percentage
silver content), you'd expect them to be able to buy the stuff in
plumbers' merchants, would you not?

Funny how BES and Screwfix don't appear to sell it. (Of course, maybe I
am simply crap at finding it.)


What is the case is that all or nearly all 'lead free' solder has a very
small trace of silver in it, so certain people who are ego driven and
want to win arguyments rather than impart information, have claimed that
this is 'silver solder' when that term was claimed years ago by high
temperature solders used in brazing with significantly high silver
concentrations.

Remember the old legal ruling years ago that 'salmon paste' had to have
at least 15% salmon in it, whereas 'Fish paste - Salmon' - need have
less than 5%?

Or something.



--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

On 17/07/14 10:21, F Murtz wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 16/07/14 14:41, F Murtz wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 16/07/14 05:29, F Murtz wrote:


The silver solder that plumbers use for copper pipe is usually
only 2%
silver

Plumbers don't use silver solder for copper pipe.





You must have strange plumbing practices or a different set of words.

Look at the first one mentioned.
http://www.metalspraysupplies.com/ms...lversolder.pdf

2% silver is not 'silver solder' except to people in marketing.



Not in to semantics in this instance.
It is sold as 2% silver solder and is bought by plumbers and called
silver solder by them and used to join copper whenever they want a top
shelf job.

Not in this country it isn't.


Personally whenever I join copper where It can not be got at again and I
do not want it to fail as I have seen so many soft solder joints do I
use that erroneously called (by you)silver solder

I have never ever seen a so called 'soft' solder plumbing joint fail
that was made properly in the first place.


It is clear you have not actually done any real life soldering.

I just asked my plumber son and all the work he does now specify silver
solder often 5% but they cheat and use 2%.

yeah right.

All commercial work, units blocks of flats and industrial use silver
solder most plumbers use silver solder, in some domestic houses a few
may use soft solder

It is illegal to use lead solder these days.


this 2% and 5% silver solder is called silver solder by the makers the
sellers and the users.

No it isnt. Its called 'lead free solder'

http://www.screwfix.com/p/fernox-sol...ead-free/77198

I do not believe the UK differs much

Finally he admits he is not in the UK.

This is a UK specific NG.

****.


unless they still work in dark age
practices

No, they work in EU specified lead free practices.

They simply do not take words with specific meanings and change them for
marketing purposes as much as whatever intellectual backwater you
inhabit does,


Please ask any plumbing relatives or acquaintances you may have and
prove me wrong.

they all use plumbers solder of the lead free persuasion.



--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

On 18/07/14 05:16, F Murtz wrote:
polygonum wrote:
On 16/07/2014 14:50, F Murtz wrote:
It is extremely common in Australia and I can not believe that it is not
in UK by professionals.

If plumbers did actually use silver solder (of whatever percentage
silver content), you'd expect them to be able to buy the stuff in
plumbers' merchants, would you not?

Funny how BES and Screwfix don't appear to sell it. (Of course, maybe I
am simply crap at finding it.)



May be plumbers buy their stuff at plumbing wholesalers and not at
general hardware shops, or if screwfix etc are trade suppliers you are
not looking hard enough
I can not imagine that the UK is so different to here
Anywhere copper is used on new flats, units or multistory living spaces
5% or 2% silver is specified,Small single dwellings now seem to be going
plastic but if copper is used it is silver soldered
Why don't you do what I suggested and ask a real plumber?

Darling I had half a dozen here building my house and bought my lead
free solder from the same builders merchants as they did.

No one called it 'silver solder' and it isn't 'silver solder', even
though it generally has 2% silver in it to help it flow.

What you can or cannot imagine appears to be orthogonal to the actual
facts of the matter.



--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 17/07/14 10:21, F Murtz wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 16/07/14 14:41, F Murtz wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 16/07/14 05:29, F Murtz wrote:


The silver solder that plumbers use for copper pipe is usually
only 2%
silver

Plumbers don't use silver solder for copper pipe.





You must have strange plumbing practices or a different set of words.

Look at the first one mentioned.
http://www.metalspraysupplies.com/ms...lversolder.pdf

2% silver is not 'silver solder' except to people in marketing.



Not in to semantics in this instance.
It is sold as 2% silver solder and is bought by plumbers and called
silver solder by them and used to join copper whenever they want a top
shelf job.

Not in this country it isn't.

I do not believe you, and wont till you ask a real plumber.


Personally whenever I join copper where It can not be got at again and I
do not want it to fail as I have seen so many soft solder joints do I
use that erroneously called (by you)silver solder

I have never ever seen a so called 'soft' solder plumbing joint fail
that was made properly in the first place.


It is clear you have not actually done any real life soldering.

I just asked my plumber son and all the work he does now specify silver
solder often 5% but they cheat and use 2%.

yeah right.

All commercial work, units blocks of flats and industrial use silver
solder most plumbers use silver solder, in some domestic houses a few
may use soft solder

It is illegal to use lead solder these days.

Who said anything about lead?


this 2% and 5% silver solder is called silver solder by the makers the
sellers and the users.

No it isnt. Its called 'lead free solder'
You are categorically wrong it is not called lead free solder.
http://www.metalspraysupplies.com/ms...lversolder.pdf

http://www.screwfix.com/p/fernox-sol...ead-free/77198

I do not believe the UK differs much

Finally he admits he is not in the UK.

This is a UK specific NG.

****.


unless they still work in dark age
practices

No, they work in EU specified lead free practices.

They simply do not take words with specific meanings and change them for
marketing purposes as much as whatever intellectual backwater you
inhabit does,


Please ask any plumbing relatives or acquaintances you may have and
prove me wrong.

they all use plumbers solder of the lead free persuasion.

On 18/07/14 07:01, F Murtz wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 17/07/14 10:21, F Murtz wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 16/07/14 14:41, F Murtz wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 16/07/14 05:29, F Murtz wrote:


The silver solder that plumbers use for copper pipe is usually
only 2%
silver

Plumbers don't use silver solder for copper pipe.





You must have strange plumbing practices or a different set of words.

Look at the first one mentioned.
http://www.metalspraysupplies.com/ms...lversolder.pdf

2% silver is not 'silver solder' except to people in marketing.



Not in to semantics in this instance.
It is sold as 2% silver solder and is bought by plumbers and called
silver solder by them and used to join copper whenever they want a top
shelf job.

Not in this country it isn't.

I do not believe you, and wont till you ask a real plumber.

OK I just did. The answer is the same.



Personally whenever I join copper where It can not be got at again and I
do not want it to fail as I have seen so many soft solder joints do I
use that erroneously called (by you)silver solder

I have never ever seen a so called 'soft' solder plumbing joint fail
that was made properly in the first place.


It is clear you have not actually done any real life soldering.

I just asked my plumber son and all the work he does now specify silver
solder often 5% but they cheat and use 2%.

yeah right.

All commercial work, units blocks of flats and industrial use silver
solder most plumbers use silver solder, in some domestic houses a few
may use soft solder

It is illegal to use lead solder these days.

Who said anything about lead?


this 2% and 5% silver solder is called silver solder by the makers the
sellers and the users.

No it isnt. Its called 'lead free solder'
You are categorically wrong it is not called lead free solder.
http://www.metalspraysupplies.com/ms...lversolder.pdf


"check with the MSSA sales team"

yeah. The sales blurb from ONE Australian company calls lead free solder
'silver solder' and EVERY OTHER reference on the web calls it lead free
solder.

shheesh. How narrow minded and parochial can one australian get?


http://www.screwfix.com/p/fernox-sol...ead-free/77198


complete disprives you ..
I do not believe the UK differs much

Finally he admits he is not in the UK.

This is a UK specific NG.

****.


unless they still work in dark age
practices

No, they work in EU specified lead free practices.

They simply do not take words with specific meanings and change them for
marketing purposes as much as whatever intellectual backwater you
inhabit does,


Please ask any plumbing relatives or acquaintances you may have and
prove me wrong.

they all use plumbers solder of the lead free persuasion.






--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 18/07/14 05:16, F Murtz wrote:
polygonum wrote:
On 16/07/2014 14:50, F Murtz wrote:
It is extremely common in Australia and I can not believe that it is
not
in UK by professionals.

If plumbers did actually use silver solder (of whatever percentage
silver content), you'd expect them to be able to buy the stuff in
plumbers' merchants, would you not?

Funny how BES and Screwfix don't appear to sell it. (Of course, maybe I
am simply crap at finding it.)



May be plumbers buy their stuff at plumbing wholesalers and not at
general hardware shops, or if screwfix etc are trade suppliers you are
not looking hard enough
I can not imagine that the UK is so different to here
Anywhere copper is used on new flats, units or multistory living spaces
5% or 2% silver is specified,Small single dwellings now seem to be going
plastic but if copper is used it is silver soldered
Why don't you do what I suggested and ask a real plumber?
Did you ask them what they used to join copper in new places(not just
alterations in old places)

Darling I had half a dozen here building my house and bought my lead
free solder from the same builders merchants as they did.

No one called it 'silver solder' and it isn't 'silver solder', even
though it generally has 2% silver in it to help it flow.
This is soft solder sometimes containing silver
This is not the silver solder I am referring to

What you can or cannot imagine appears to be orthogonal to the actual
facts of the matter.



I think it is a language problem
There is silver containing soft solder but I am not referring to that,I
am referring to what most countries (except seemingly UK)call silver
solder or silver brazing solder.(mostly copper bit of silver and phosphor)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/41035-Harris...em259193 f27d
Here is a range.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/41035-Harris...em259193 f27d

This whole subject is absolutely amazing me,I can not believe that the
UK differs so much from everywhere else and is using ancient methods
that have changed so long ago elsewhere.

I am completely baffled as I am having trouble finding the copper
phosphor silver alloys in the british plumbing establishments on the
net, here you can get it at all hardwares,trade plumbing supplies and
all over the place.

On 18/07/2014 07:31, F Murtz wrote:
I am completely baffled as I am having trouble finding the copper
phosphor silver alloys in the british plumbing establishments on the
net, here you can get it at all hardwares,trade plumbing supplies and
all over the place.

You can buy similar products all over the place - but typically not
specialist plumbing suppliers.

--
Rod

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 18/07/14 07:01, F Murtz wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 17/07/14 10:21, F Murtz wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 16/07/14 14:41, F Murtz wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 16/07/14 05:29, F Murtz wrote:


The silver solder that plumbers use for copper pipe is usually
only 2%
silver

Plumbers don't use silver solder for copper pipe.





You must have strange plumbing practices or a different set of words.

Look at the first one mentioned.
http://www.metalspraysupplies.com/ms...lversolder.pdf

2% silver is not 'silver solder' except to people in marketing.



Not in to semantics in this instance.
It is sold as 2% silver solder and is bought by plumbers and called
silver solder by them and used to join copper whenever they want a top
shelf job.

Not in this country it isn't.

I do not believe you, and wont till you ask a real plumber.

OK I just did. The answer is the same.



Personally whenever I join copper where It can not be got at again
and I
do not want it to fail as I have seen so many soft solder joints do I
use that erroneously called (by you)silver solder

I have never ever seen a so called 'soft' solder plumbing joint fail
that was made properly in the first place.


It is clear you have not actually done any real life soldering.

I just asked my plumber son and all the work he does now specify silver
solder often 5% but they cheat and use 2%.

yeah right.

All commercial work, units blocks of flats and industrial use silver
solder most plumbers use silver solder, in some domestic houses a few
may use soft solder

It is illegal to use lead solder these days.

Who said anything about lead?


this 2% and 5% silver solder is called silver solder by the makers the
sellers and the users.

No it isnt. Its called 'lead free solder'
You are categorically wrong it is not called lead free solder.
http://www.metalspraysupplies.com/ms...lversolder.pdf


"check with the MSSA sales team"

yeah. The sales blurb from ONE Australian company calls lead free solder
'silver solder' and EVERY OTHER reference on the web calls it lead free
solder.

At no time was I meaning soft solder.I have been discussing what the
makers, users, suppliers, (maybe everywhere but the UK) call 2% or5%
silver solder ,a high temperature silver brazing solder made from copper
silver and phosphor.



shheesh. How narrow minded and parochial can one australian get?


http://www.screwfix.com/p/fernox-sol...ead-free/77198


complete disprives you ..
I do not believe the UK differs much

Finally he admits he is not in the UK.

This is a UK specific NG.

****.


unless they still work in dark age
practices

No, they work in EU specified lead free practices.

They simply do not take words with specific meanings and change them for
marketing purposes as much as whatever intellectual backwater you
inhabit does,


Please ask any plumbing relatives or acquaintances you may have and
prove me wrong.

they all use plumbers solder of the lead free persuasion.

On 18/07/14 07:31, F Murtz wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 18/07/14 05:16, F Murtz wrote:
polygonum wrote:
On 16/07/2014 14:50, F Murtz wrote:
It is extremely common in Australia and I can not believe that it is
not
in UK by professionals.

If plumbers did actually use silver solder (of whatever percentage
silver content), you'd expect them to be able to buy the stuff in
plumbers' merchants, would you not?

Funny how BES and Screwfix don't appear to sell it. (Of course, maybe I
am simply crap at finding it.)



May be plumbers buy their stuff at plumbing wholesalers and not at
general hardware shops, or if screwfix etc are trade suppliers you are
not looking hard enough
I can not imagine that the UK is so different to here
Anywhere copper is used on new flats, units or multistory living spaces
5% or 2% silver is specified,Small single dwellings now seem to be going
plastic but if copper is used it is silver soldered
Why don't you do what I suggested and ask a real plumber?
Did you ask them what they used to join copper in new places(not just
alterations in old places)

Darling I had half a dozen here building my house and bought my lead
free solder from the same builders merchants as they did.

No one called it 'silver solder' and it isn't 'silver solder', even
though it generally has 2% silver in it to help it flow.
This is soft solder sometimes containing silver
This is not the silver solder I am referring to

What you can or cannot imagine appears to be orthogonal to the actual
facts of the matter.



I think it is a language problem
There is silver containing soft solder but I am not referring to that,I
am referring to what most countries (except seemingly UK)call silver
solder or silver brazing solder.(mostly copper bit of silver and phosphor)


No. That is exactly NOT what you are referring to. Because that is NOT
what plumbers use.


You cant weasel your way out of the fact that you claimed that plumbers
use 'silver solder'

I.e whta we call hard solder. They dom not. They use soft solder.


http://www.ebay.com/itm/41035-Harris...em259193 f27d

Here is a range.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/41035-Harris...em259193 f27d


This whole subject is absolutely amazing me,I can not believe that the
UK differs so much from everywhere else and is using ancient methods
that have changed so long ago elsewhere.

No, you cannot believe that you don't know what you are talking about.

ALL plumbers everywhere in the world use soft solder. None use silver or
'hard' solder except in very high pressure work like radiators for cars
or aerospace hydraulics. Or where there is a lot of mechanical stress. I
don't call that 'plumbing'.

The fact that one Australian company has place soft solder containing
some silver under the heading of 'silver solder' and you thought you
were being clever, but are in fact being stupid by showing their sales
brochure, is another matter entirely


I am completely baffled as I am having trouble finding the copper
phosphor silver alloys in the british plumbing establishments on the
net, here you can get it at all hardwares,trade plumbing supplies and
all over the place.

No one uses copper phosphor alloys. For soldering. Because its not a solder.

That is a brazing rod composition. I.e hard solder.


Soft solder is sub 400C melting point.

Hard solder is 400C melting point and is generally called 'brazing' or
sometimes - because early hard solders and brazing rods ERE mainly
silver - silver soldering.

Soft solders are what is used in electronics and 99% of plumbing. Tin
lead solder is the best, but recent alarms over lead have lead to
tin-copper with a little silver being substituted.

Hard solders vary enormously. from high sliver and gold for jewelry
work, to copper silver and phosphorus for high temp brass and bronze joints.

They were developed in the UK, in Europe and in the USA ling before
Australians even heard of brazing. Its seems they haven't heard yet
actually. And think its the same as soldering.

Hence the confusion.


--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

On 18/07/14 07:51, F Murtz wrote:

At no time was I meaning soft solder.I have been discussing what the
makers, users, suppliers, (maybe everywhere but the UK) call 2% or5%
silver solder ,a high temperature silver brazing solder made from copper
silver and phosphor.

2% silver is a soft solder.

The fact is you don't know what you are talking about at all.

Hard silver solder has a lot more than 2 or 5% Ag in it.

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 18/07/14 07:51, F Murtz wrote:

At no time was I meaning soft solder.I have been discussing what the
makers, users, suppliers, (maybe everywhere but the UK) call 2% or5%
silver solder ,a high temperature silver brazing solder made from copper
silver and phosphor.

2% silver is a soft solder.

The fact is you don't know what you are talking about at all.

Hard silver solder has a lot more than 2 or 5% Ag in it.

Words again, I have shown links to the sort of hard as opposed to soft
solder (brazing)rod that I am referring to.
http://www.metalspraysupplies.com/ms...lversolder.pdf
Especially the first referred to in the case of plumbing.
If you wish to carry on with semantics so be it but by now every one
else know which solder I refer to by "silver solder"

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 18/07/14 07:31, F Murtz wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 18/07/14 05:16, F Murtz wrote:
polygonum wrote:
On 16/07/2014 14:50, F Murtz wrote:
It is extremely common in Australia and I can not believe that it is
not
in UK by professionals.

If plumbers did actually use silver solder (of whatever percentage
silver content), you'd expect them to be able to buy the stuff in
plumbers' merchants, would you not?

Funny how BES and Screwfix don't appear to sell it. (Of course,
maybe I
am simply crap at finding it.)



May be plumbers buy their stuff at plumbing wholesalers and not at
general hardware shops, or if screwfix etc are trade suppliers you are
not looking hard enough
I can not imagine that the UK is so different to here
Anywhere copper is used on new flats, units or multistory living spaces
5% or 2% silver is specified,Small single dwellings now seem to be
going
plastic but if copper is used it is silver soldered
Why don't you do what I suggested and ask a real plumber?
Did you ask them what they used to join copper in new places(not just
alterations in old places)

Darling I had half a dozen here building my house and bought my lead
free solder from the same builders merchants as they did.

No one called it 'silver solder' and it isn't 'silver solder', even
though it generally has 2% silver in it to help it flow.
This is soft solder sometimes containing silver
This is not the silver solder I am referring to

What you can or cannot imagine appears to be orthogonal to the actual
facts of the matter.



I think it is a language problem
There is silver containing soft solder but I am not referring to that,I
am referring to what most countries (except seemingly UK)call silver
solder or silver brazing solder.(mostly copper bit of silver and
phosphor)


No. That is exactly NOT what you are referring to. Because that is NOT
what plumbers use.


You cant weasel your way out of the fact that you claimed that plumbers
use 'silver solder'

I.e whta we call hard solder. They dom not. They use soft solder.


http://www.ebay.com/itm/41035-Harris...em259193 f27d


Here is a range.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/41035-Harris...em259193 f27d



This whole subject is absolutely amazing me,I can not believe that the
UK differs so much from everywhere else and is using ancient methods
that have changed so long ago elsewhere.

No, you cannot believe that you don't know what you are talking about.

ALL plumbers everywhere in the world use soft solder. None use silver or
'hard' solder except in very high pressure work like radiators for cars
or aerospace hydraulics. Or where there is a lot of mechanical stress. I
don't call that 'plumbing'.


That is complete provable rubbish.
Plumbers do use soft solder on occasion and always have BUT all in
Australia use and have used 2% or 5% (copper silver phosphor alloy)For
joining copper pipes extensively in normal water piping for residential
and commercial for years
I have been assuming that we just copied places like the UK but it seem
we are ahead and copy world best practice instead of the old


The fact that one Australian company has place soft solder containing
some silver under the heading of 'silver solder' and you thought you
were being clever, but are in fact being stupid by showing their sales
brochure, is another matter entirely


I am completely baffled as I am having trouble finding the copper
phosphor silver alloys in the british plumbing establishments on the
net, here you can get it at all hardwares,trade plumbing supplies and
all over the place.

No one uses copper phosphor alloys. For soldering. Because its not a
solder.

That is a brazing rod composition. I.e hard solder.


Soft solder is sub 400C melting point.

Hard solder is 400C melting point and is generally called 'brazing' or
sometimes - because early hard solders and brazing rods ERE mainly
silver - silver soldering.

Soft solders are what is used in electronics and 99% of plumbing. Tin
lead solder is the best, but recent alarms over lead have lead to
tin-copper with a little silver being substituted.

Hard solders vary enormously. from high sliver and gold for jewelry
work, to copper silver and phosphorus for high temp brass and bronze
joints.

They were developed in the UK, in Europe and in the USA ling before
Australians even heard of brazing. Its seems they haven't heard yet
actually. And think its the same as soldering.

Hence the confusion.

F Murtz wrote:

all in
Australia use and have used 2% or 5% (copper silver phosphor alloy)For
joining copper pipes extensively in normal water piping for residential
and commercial for years

How much tin does Australia mine? Could it just be you have lots of
copper/phosphor and silver is what makes those work in combination as a
solder?

I have been assuming that we just copied places like the UK but it seem
we are ahead and copy world best practice instead of the old

Yet you don't know if or how it's "better"?

In article m,
F Murtz wrote:
May be plumbers buy their stuff at plumbing wholesalers and not at
general hardware shops, or if screwfix etc are trade suppliers you are
not looking hard enough

In the UK you'd be hard pressed to find a 'general hardware store' these
days. And there are also virtually no trade only suppliers.

I can not imagine that the UK is so different to here
Anywhere copper is used on new flats, units or multistory living spaces
5% or 2% silver is specified,

Ah. You seem to be talking about so called lead free *soft* solder. Which
does contain small amounts of silver. It is now the norm in the UK too -
sadly.

In the UK, silver solder refers to a form of *hard* solder containing
perhaps 40% silver. More akin to brazing than soldering.

It could be that is used for some specialised copper pipe jointing - but
would be expensive and unnecessary for domestic heating systems.


Small single dwellings now seem to be going
plastic but if copper is used it is silver soldered
Why don't you do what I suggested and ask a real plumber?

--
*A day without sunshine is like... night.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article m,
F Murtz wrote:
May be plumbers buy their stuff at plumbing wholesalers and not at
general hardware shops, or if screwfix etc are trade suppliers you are
not looking hard enough

In the UK you'd be hard pressed to find a 'general hardware store' these
days. And there are also virtually no trade only suppliers.

I can not imagine that the UK is so different to here
Anywhere copper is used on new flats, units or multistory living spaces
5% or 2% silver is specified,

Ah. You seem to be talking about so called lead free *soft* solder. Which
does contain small amounts of silver. It is now the norm in the UK too -
sadly.

No I am talking about the first on this list

http://www.metalspraysupplies.com/ms...lversolder.pdf



In the UK, silver solder refers to a form of *hard* solder containing
perhaps 40% silver. More akin to brazing than soldering.

It could be that is used for some specialised copper pipe jointing - but
would be expensive and unnecessary for domestic heating systems.


Small single dwellings now seem to be going
plastic but if copper is used it is silver soldered
Why don't you do what I suggested and ask a real plumber?

Andy Burns wrote
F Murtz wrote

all in Australia use and have used 2% or 5% (copper silver
phosphor alloy) For joining copper pipes extensively in
normal water piping for residential and commercial for years

How much tin does Australia mine?

Hell of a lot more than Britain.
http://www.indexmundi.com/minerals/?product=tin

Could it just be you have lots of copper/phosphor and
silver is what makes those work in combination as a solder?

Nope.

I have been assuming that we just copied places like the UK but it
seem we are ahead and copy world best practice instead of the old

Yet you don't know if or how it's "better"?

It must be if its specified for some work.

In article m,
F Murtz wrote:
Ah. You seem to be talking about so called lead free *soft* solder.
Which does contain small amounts of silver. It is now the norm in the
UK too - sadly.

No I am talking about the first on this list

http://www.metalspraysupplies.com/ms...lversolder.pdf

Must be an Oz thing - referring to all 'solders' containing tiny amounts
of silver as silver solder. By that, UK lead free solder is also silver
solder.

But judging by the apostrophe use in that document English isn't a strong
point anyway.

--
*To err is human. To forgive is against company policy.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Rod Speed wrote:
I have been assuming that we just copied places like the UK but it
seem we are ahead and copy world best practice instead of the old

Yet you don't know if or how it's "better"?

It must be if its specified for some work.

Which would infer the UK is full of leaks caused by soft solder failure on
copper pipes. It's not.

Only one I've seen which failed (having been properly made) was caused by
a pipe freezing and forcing the joint apart. Rather easier to fix than a
much stronger joint which could have caused the pipe to split.

Some of the Oz regs make the EU seem like anarchy.

--
*If a parsley farmer is sued, can they garnish his wages?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article m,
F Murtz wrote:
Ah. You seem to be talking about so called lead free *soft* solder.
Which does contain small amounts of silver. It is now the norm in the
UK too - sadly.

No I am talking about the first on this list

http://www.metalspraysupplies.com/ms...lversolder.pdf

Must be an Oz thing - referring to all 'solders' containing tiny amounts
of silver as silver solder. By that, UK lead free solder is also silver
solder.


No one seems to comprehend, silver solder to us is sticks of stuff that
take a lot of heat to melt all the others are just solder or soft solder
this is in most of the trades metalworking, electrical, plumbing, air
con refrigeration etc I was electrical and worked alongside every
industrial trade there is and silver solder was wire like sticks of hard
stuff to all of them, solder was usually a thick lump of stuff that
melted with an iron and in the electrical trade sometimes came on a
spool with flux in it usually rosin sometimes acid.
In the electronic trades some may call some soft solders silver solder
if they contain silver
You notice that I am not talking technically, so everyone should understand.


But judging by the apostrophe use in that document English isn't a strong
point anyway.

In article om,
F Murtz wrote:
No one seems to comprehend, silver solder to us is sticks of stuff that
take a lot of heat to melt all the others are just solder or soft solder

Right. You should have made it clear you didn't understand (or care about)
the differences. Rather than tell many here they were wrong.

--
*A cartoonist was found dead in his home. Details are sketchy.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Rod Speed wrote:
I have been assuming that we just copied places like the UK but it
seem we are ahead and copy world best practice instead of the old

Yet you don't know if or how it's "better"?

It must be if its specified for some work.

Which would infer the UK is full of leaks caused by soft solder failure on
copper pipes. It's not.

Only one I've seen which failed (having been properly made) was caused by
a pipe freezing and forcing the joint apart. Rather easier to fix than a
much stronger joint which could have caused the pipe to split.

Some of the Oz regs make the EU seem like anarchy.

In a few trades , but we just ignore them all, hardware shops and some
supermarkets sell all the materials for all those trades to the general
public.

I have never had any trade do any of my work (I have a plumber son but I
still do my own plumbing, he is handy to dig holes with the excavator if
I need them, I do not use mechanics for bike or car I don't use panel
beaters or spray painters except if someone elses insurances does it I
fix my own electronics tv etc.If I want a long trailer I make it(showed
a pic a while back)