The Other Mike wrote:
On Mon, 14 Jul 2014 09:05:37 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

I was talking to a friend of a friend in a pub and he claimed that when he left school, he did an apprenticeship as a welder and that he worked as one for several years. Okay, no problem.

The chap then told of high times and much money made when welding using solid silver rods. He said that when the rods were spent, he and co workers would pocket the stub ends for selling as silver scrap. Most of the prior conversation concerned arc welding, so I assume that is the flavour of work he was referring to.

Silver solder is commonly around 60 - 75% Silver and rarely ever higher. Items
that subsequently require hallmarking need to be 65% or higher. The higher the
silver content the better the colour match but joint gaps should be thin enough
to be near invisible anyway.

The silver solder that plumbers use for copper pipe is usually only 2%
silver


A competent welder makes enough money such that buggering about flogging scrap
rod is pointless.


Later, he elaborated on the extent of his welding skills by claiming that he could weld aluminium foil.

That is possible with tig welding *if* you are very good

Both of the above strike me as bull****, especially in the context of industrial applications, being the claimed field of expertise. I could perhaps imagine some fancy jewelers being able to do something along the lines of what was claimed.

So, was this all clearly bull****, or could there be a grain of truth somewhere?

If he claims he was a welder a good check is to see if he has a daughter and no
sons (a standard test that is quite accurate)

On 16/07/14 05:29, F Murtz wrote:


The silver solder that plumbers use for copper pipe is usually only 2%
silver

Plumbers don't use silver solder for copper pipe.





--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

On Wednesday, July 16, 2014 5:40:03 AM UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 16/07/14 05:29, F Murtz wrote:



The silver solder that plumbers use for copper pipe is usually only 2%
silver

Plumbers don't use silver solder for copper pipe.
On the other hand refrigeration engineers do commonly braze or hard solder*
copper pipes, so they may sometimes use silver containing alloys.
*delete whichever term you disagree with :-)

On 16/07/2014 13:30, wrote:
On Wednesday, July 16, 2014 5:40:03 AM UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 16/07/14 05:29, F Murtz wrote:



The silver solder that plumbers use for copper pipe is usually only 2%
silver

Plumbers don't use silver solder for copper pipe.
On the other hand refrigeration engineers do commonly braze or hard solder*
copper pipes, so they may sometimes use silver containing alloys.
*delete whichever term you disagree with :-)

Occasionally they do. I'm a retired plumber and on a few sites in London
it was stipulated that silver solder must be used.

On 16/07/14 13:30, wrote:
On Wednesday, July 16, 2014 5:40:03 AM UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 16/07/14 05:29, F Murtz wrote:



The silver solder that plumbers use for copper pipe is usually only 2%
silver

Plumbers don't use silver solder for copper pipe.
On the other hand refrigeration engineers

Refrigeration engineers are not 'plumbers'

Neither are people repairing car radiators, making model steam engines
or constructing artistic sculptures.



do commonly braze or hard solder*
copper pipes, so they may sometimes use silver containing alloys.
*delete whichever term you disagree with :-)



--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 16/07/14 05:29, F Murtz wrote:


The silver solder that plumbers use for copper pipe is usually only 2%
silver

Plumbers don't use silver solder for copper pipe.





You must have strange plumbing practices or a different set of words.

Look at the first one mentioned.
http://www.metalspraysupplies.com/ms...lversolder.pdf

On 16/07/14 14:41, F Murtz wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 16/07/14 05:29, F Murtz wrote:


The silver solder that plumbers use for copper pipe is usually only 2%
silver

Plumbers don't use silver solder for copper pipe.





You must have strange plumbing practices or a different set of words.

Look at the first one mentioned.
http://www.metalspraysupplies.com/ms...lversolder.pdf

2% silver is not 'silver solder' except to people in marketing.



--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 16/07/14 14:41, F Murtz wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 16/07/14 05:29, F Murtz wrote:


The silver solder that plumbers use for copper pipe is usually only 2%
silver

Plumbers don't use silver solder for copper pipe.





You must have strange plumbing practices or a different set of words.

Look at the first one mentioned.
http://www.metalspraysupplies.com/ms...lversolder.pdf

2% silver is not 'silver solder' except to people in marketing.



Not in to semantics in this instance.
It is sold as 2% silver solder and is bought by plumbers and called
silver solder by them and used to join copper whenever they want a top
shelf job.
Personally whenever I join copper where It can not be got at again and I
do not want it to fail as I have seen so many soft solder joints do I
use that erroneously called (by you)silver solder
I just asked my plumber son and all the work he does now specify silver
solder often 5% but they cheat and use 2%.
All commercial work, units blocks of flats and industrial use silver
solder most plumbers use silver solder, in some domestic houses a few
may use soft solder
this 2% and 5% silver solder is called silver solder by the makers the
sellers and the users.
I do not believe the UK differs much unless they still work in dark age
practices
Please ask any plumbing relatives or acquaintances you may have and
prove me wrong.

On 17/07/14 10:21, F Murtz wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 16/07/14 14:41, F Murtz wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 16/07/14 05:29, F Murtz wrote:


The silver solder that plumbers use for copper pipe is usually
only 2%
silver

Plumbers don't use silver solder for copper pipe.





You must have strange plumbing practices or a different set of words.

Look at the first one mentioned.
http://www.metalspraysupplies.com/ms...lversolder.pdf

2% silver is not 'silver solder' except to people in marketing.



Not in to semantics in this instance.
It is sold as 2% silver solder and is bought by plumbers and called
silver solder by them and used to join copper whenever they want a top
shelf job.

Not in this country it isn't.


Personally whenever I join copper where It can not be got at again and I
do not want it to fail as I have seen so many soft solder joints do I
use that erroneously called (by you)silver solder

I have never ever seen a so called 'soft' solder plumbing joint fail
that was made properly in the first place.


It is clear you have not actually done any real life soldering.

I just asked my plumber son and all the work he does now specify silver
solder often 5% but they cheat and use 2%.

yeah right.

All commercial work, units blocks of flats and industrial use silver
solder most plumbers use silver solder, in some domestic houses a few
may use soft solder

It is illegal to use lead solder these days.


this 2% and 5% silver solder is called silver solder by the makers the
sellers and the users.

No it isnt. Its called 'lead free solder'

http://www.screwfix.com/p/fernox-sol...ead-free/77198

I do not believe the UK differs much

Finally he admits he is not in the UK.

This is a UK specific NG.

****.


unless they still work in dark age
practices

No, they work in EU specified lead free practices.

They simply do not take words with specific meanings and change them for
marketing purposes as much as whatever intellectual backwater you
inhabit does,


Please ask any plumbing relatives or acquaintances you may have and
prove me wrong.

they all use plumbers solder of the lead free persuasion.



--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 16/07/14 05:29, F Murtz wrote:


The silver solder that plumbers use for copper pipe is usually only 2%
silver

Plumbers don't use silver solder for copper pipe.





It is extremely common in Australia and I can not believe that it is not
in UK by professionals.
There is a whole range of fittings made specifically for the purpose.
Home handymen have a different range of fittings with a band of soft
solder in them, professionals do sometimes soft solder when they can't
get their oxy near(or mapp gas in a pinch)

In article om,
F Murtz wrote:
Plumbers don't use silver solder for copper pipe.





It is extremely common in Australia and I can not believe that it is not
in UK by professionals.

For domestic use on domestic water systems and central heating, etc? No
need - 'ordinary' solder is quite strong enough. Could be different on a
high pressure system like air conditioning.

Of course lead free is the norm on potable water piping now.

--
*The modem is the message *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 16/07/14 14:50, F Murtz wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 16/07/14 05:29, F Murtz wrote:


The silver solder that plumbers use for copper pipe is usually only 2%
silver

Plumbers don't use silver solder for copper pipe.





It is extremely common in Australia and I can not believe that it is not
in UK by professionals.
There is a whole range of fittings made specifically for the purpose.
Home handymen have a different range of fittings with a band of soft
solder in them, professionals do sometimes soft solder when they can't
get their oxy near(or mapp gas in a pinch)

Soft solder is not silver solder.

It used to be lead/tin but now we have gone lead free its mainly tin
IIRC copper and a little silver to help it flow by messing around with
the alloys eutectic wotsits.

The term SILVER solder refers to a calls of hard high temperature
solders with much higher silver content that are not used in plumbing
applications.


--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 16/07/14 14:50, F Murtz wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 16/07/14 05:29, F Murtz wrote:


The silver solder that plumbers use for copper pipe is usually only 2%
silver

Plumbers don't use silver solder for copper pipe.





It is extremely common in Australia and I can not believe that it is not
in UK by professionals.
There is a whole range of fittings made specifically for the purpose.
Home handymen have a different range of fittings with a band of soft
solder in them, professionals do sometimes soft solder when they can't
get their oxy near(or mapp gas in a pinch)

Soft solder is not silver solder.
As I have been trying to explain

It used to be lead/tin but now we have gone lead free its mainly tin
IIRC copper and a little silver to help it flow by messing around with
the alloys eutectic wotsits.

The term SILVER solder refers to a calls of hard high temperature
solders with much higher silver content that are not used in plumbing
applications.
Silver solder is a term that manufactures use to describe a high temp
harder product that ranges from 2% to a very high percentage of silver
Most home handymen use soft solder because it is easier to melt,
plumbers use both, depending on how permanent they want or whether the
contractor has specified. Plumbers mostly use 2% sometimes 5% it is
extremely easy to use if you have oxy acetylene it need no flux copper
to copper unless copper to brass

It is strange that this news group seems to have a smattering of most
trades except plumbers that contribute.

On Thursday, 17 July 2014 08:08:10 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:


The term SILVER solder refers to a calls of hard high temperature
solders with much higher silver content that are not used in plumbing
applications.

We've just brought some silver ink, we've had siler paint and silver epoxy in before, not the sort of stuff DIYers might use as it contains real silver as it has to conduct electricity rather than just be a colour choice.

In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
We've just brought some silver ink, we've had siler paint and silver
epoxy in before, not the sort of stuff DIYers might use as it contains
real silver as it has to conduct electricity rather than just be a
colour choice.

Is that similar to the 'paint' used to repair a broken track on a car
heated rear window etc? Pricey stuff.

--
*Why are they called apartments, when they're all stuck together? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 16/07/2014 14:50, F Murtz wrote:
It is extremely common in Australia and I can not believe that it is not
in UK by professionals.

If plumbers did actually use silver solder (of whatever percentage
silver content), you'd expect them to be able to buy the stuff in
plumbers' merchants, would you not?

Funny how BES and Screwfix don't appear to sell it. (Of course, maybe I
am simply crap at finding it.)

--
Rod

polygonum wrote:
On 16/07/2014 14:50, F Murtz wrote:
It is extremely common in Australia and I can not believe that it is not
in UK by professionals.

If plumbers did actually use silver solder (of whatever percentage
silver content), you'd expect them to be able to buy the stuff in
plumbers' merchants, would you not?

Funny how BES and Screwfix don't appear to sell it. (Of course, maybe I
am simply crap at finding it.)



May be plumbers buy their stuff at plumbing wholesalers and not at
general hardware shops, or if screwfix etc are trade suppliers you are
not looking hard enough
I can not imagine that the UK is so different to here
Anywhere copper is used on new flats, units or multistory living spaces
5% or 2% silver is specified,Small single dwellings now seem to be going
plastic but if copper is used it is silver soldered
Why don't you do what I suggested and ask a real plumber?

On 18/07/14 05:16, F Murtz wrote:
polygonum wrote:
On 16/07/2014 14:50, F Murtz wrote:
It is extremely common in Australia and I can not believe that it is not
in UK by professionals.

If plumbers did actually use silver solder (of whatever percentage
silver content), you'd expect them to be able to buy the stuff in
plumbers' merchants, would you not?

Funny how BES and Screwfix don't appear to sell it. (Of course, maybe I
am simply crap at finding it.)



May be plumbers buy their stuff at plumbing wholesalers and not at
general hardware shops, or if screwfix etc are trade suppliers you are
not looking hard enough
I can not imagine that the UK is so different to here
Anywhere copper is used on new flats, units or multistory living spaces
5% or 2% silver is specified,Small single dwellings now seem to be going
plastic but if copper is used it is silver soldered
Why don't you do what I suggested and ask a real plumber?

Darling I had half a dozen here building my house and bought my lead
free solder from the same builders merchants as they did.

No one called it 'silver solder' and it isn't 'silver solder', even
though it generally has 2% silver in it to help it flow.

What you can or cannot imagine appears to be orthogonal to the actual
facts of the matter.



--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

In article m,
F Murtz wrote:
May be plumbers buy their stuff at plumbing wholesalers and not at
general hardware shops, or if screwfix etc are trade suppliers you are
not looking hard enough

In the UK you'd be hard pressed to find a 'general hardware store' these
days. And there are also virtually no trade only suppliers.

I can not imagine that the UK is so different to here
Anywhere copper is used on new flats, units or multistory living spaces
5% or 2% silver is specified,

Ah. You seem to be talking about so called lead free *soft* solder. Which
does contain small amounts of silver. It is now the norm in the UK too -
sadly.

In the UK, silver solder refers to a form of *hard* solder containing
perhaps 40% silver. More akin to brazing than soldering.

It could be that is used for some specialised copper pipe jointing - but
would be expensive and unnecessary for domestic heating systems.


Small single dwellings now seem to be going
plastic but if copper is used it is silver soldered
Why don't you do what I suggested and ask a real plumber?

--
*A day without sunshine is like... night.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 17/07/14 22:35, polygonum wrote:
On 16/07/2014 14:50, F Murtz wrote:
It is extremely common in Australia and I can not believe that it is not
in UK by professionals.

If plumbers did actually use silver solder (of whatever percentage
silver content), you'd expect them to be able to buy the stuff in
plumbers' merchants, would you not?

Funny how BES and Screwfix don't appear to sell it. (Of course, maybe I
am simply crap at finding it.)


What is the case is that all or nearly all 'lead free' solder has a very
small trace of silver in it, so certain people who are ego driven and
want to win arguyments rather than impart information, have claimed that
this is 'silver solder' when that term was claimed years ago by high
temperature solders used in brazing with significantly high silver
concentrations.

Remember the old legal ruling years ago that 'salmon paste' had to have
at least 15% salmon in it, whereas 'Fish paste - Salmon' - need have
less than 5%?

Or something.



--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 16/07/14 05:29, F Murtz wrote:


The silver solder that plumbers use for copper pipe is usually only 2%
silver

Plumbers don't use silver solder for copper pipe.

Quite common.
It depends what's in the pipe.

On Wed, 16 Jul 2014 14:29:15 +1000, F Murtz wrote:

The Other Mike wrote:

Silver solder is commonly around 60 - 75% Silver and rarely ever higher. Items
that subsequently require hallmarking need to be 65% or higher. The higher the
silver content the better the colour match but joint gaps should be thin enough
to be near invisible anyway.

The silver solder that plumbers use for copper pipe is usually only 2%
silver

Can't for the life of me think of any application where a plumber rather than
say a boiler manufacturer would need to use silver solder and especially one
with such low silver content

The low melting point solder I very occasionally use on some electronic circuit
boards contains 2% silver (the remainder being 62% tin 36 % lead) There are
also a number of high melting point soft solders containing the same amount of
silver with the remainder being nearly all (90% +) lead and a very small
quantity of tin.
--

"The Other Mike" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 16 Jul 2014 14:29:15 +1000, F Murtz wrote:

The Other Mike wrote:

Silver solder is commonly around 60 - 75% Silver and rarely ever higher.
Items
that subsequently require hallmarking need to be 65% or higher. The
higher the
silver content the better the colour match but joint gaps should be thin
enough
to be near invisible anyway.

The silver solder that plumbers use for copper pipe is usually only 2%
silver

Can't for the life of me think of any application where a plumber rather
than
say a boiler manufacturer would need to use silver solder and especially
one
with such low silver content


Commonly used in refrigeration and other compressed gases.

Also for large diameter copper pipes.