Home |
Search |
Today's Posts |
|
UK diy (uk.d-i-y) For the discussion of all topics related to diy (do-it-yourself) in the UK. All levels of experience and proficency are welcome to join in to ask questions or offer solutions. |
Reply |
|
|
LinkBack | Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#1
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
Bull**** detector: claimed welding experience
The Other Mike wrote:
On Mon, 14 Jul 2014 09:05:37 -0700 (PDT), wrote: I was talking to a friend of a friend in a pub and he claimed that when he left school, he did an apprenticeship as a welder and that he worked as one for several years. Okay, no problem. The chap then told of high times and much money made when welding using solid silver rods. He said that when the rods were spent, he and co workers would pocket the stub ends for selling as silver scrap. Most of the prior conversation concerned arc welding, so I assume that is the flavour of work he was referring to. Silver solder is commonly around 60 - 75% Silver and rarely ever higher. Items that subsequently require hallmarking need to be 65% or higher. The higher the silver content the better the colour match but joint gaps should be thin enough to be near invisible anyway. The silver solder that plumbers use for copper pipe is usually only 2% silver A competent welder makes enough money such that buggering about flogging scrap rod is pointless. Later, he elaborated on the extent of his welding skills by claiming that he could weld aluminium foil. That is possible with tig welding *if* you are very good Both of the above strike me as bull****, especially in the context of industrial applications, being the claimed field of expertise. I could perhaps imagine some fancy jewelers being able to do something along the lines of what was claimed. So, was this all clearly bull****, or could there be a grain of truth somewhere? If he claims he was a welder a good check is to see if he has a daughter and no sons (a standard test that is quite accurate) |
#2
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
Bull**** detector: claimed welding experience
On 16/07/14 05:29, F Murtz wrote:
The silver solder that plumbers use for copper pipe is usually only 2% silver Plumbers don't use silver solder for copper pipe. -- Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll |
#3
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
Bull**** detector: claimed welding experience
On Wed, 16 Jul 2014 14:29:15 +1000, F Murtz wrote:
The Other Mike wrote: Silver solder is commonly around 60 - 75% Silver and rarely ever higher. Items that subsequently require hallmarking need to be 65% or higher. The higher the silver content the better the colour match but joint gaps should be thin enough to be near invisible anyway. The silver solder that plumbers use for copper pipe is usually only 2% silver Can't for the life of me think of any application where a plumber rather than say a boiler manufacturer would need to use silver solder and especially one with such low silver content The low melting point solder I very occasionally use on some electronic circuit boards contains 2% silver (the remainder being 62% tin 36 % lead) There are also a number of high melting point soft solders containing the same amount of silver with the remainder being nearly all (90% +) lead and a very small quantity of tin. -- |
#4
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
Bull**** detector: claimed welding experience
On Wednesday, July 16, 2014 5:40:03 AM UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 16/07/14 05:29, F Murtz wrote: The silver solder that plumbers use for copper pipe is usually only 2% silver Plumbers don't use silver solder for copper pipe. On the other hand refrigeration engineers do commonly braze or hard solder* copper pipes, so they may sometimes use silver containing alloys. *delete whichever term you disagree with :-) |
#5
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
Bull**** detector: claimed welding experience
|
#6
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
Bull**** detector: claimed welding experience
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 16/07/14 05:29, F Murtz wrote: The silver solder that plumbers use for copper pipe is usually only 2% silver Plumbers don't use silver solder for copper pipe. You must have strange plumbing practices or a different set of words. Look at the first one mentioned. http://www.metalspraysupplies.com/ms...lversolder.pdf |
#7
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
Bull**** detector: claimed welding experience
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 16/07/14 05:29, F Murtz wrote: The silver solder that plumbers use for copper pipe is usually only 2% silver Plumbers don't use silver solder for copper pipe. It is extremely common in Australia and I can not believe that it is not in UK by professionals. There is a whole range of fittings made specifically for the purpose. Home handymen have a different range of fittings with a band of soft solder in them, professionals do sometimes soft solder when they can't get their oxy near(or mapp gas in a pinch) |
#8
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
Bull**** detector: claimed welding experience
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message ... On 16/07/14 05:29, F Murtz wrote: The silver solder that plumbers use for copper pipe is usually only 2% silver Plumbers don't use silver solder for copper pipe. Quite common. It depends what's in the pipe. |
#9
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
Bull**** detector: claimed welding experience
"The Other Mike" wrote in message ... On Wed, 16 Jul 2014 14:29:15 +1000, F Murtz wrote: The Other Mike wrote: Silver solder is commonly around 60 - 75% Silver and rarely ever higher. Items that subsequently require hallmarking need to be 65% or higher. The higher the silver content the better the colour match but joint gaps should be thin enough to be near invisible anyway. The silver solder that plumbers use for copper pipe is usually only 2% silver Can't for the life of me think of any application where a plumber rather than say a boiler manufacturer would need to use silver solder and especially one with such low silver content Commonly used in refrigeration and other compressed gases. Also for large diameter copper pipes. |
#10
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
Bull**** detector: claimed welding experience
In article om,
F Murtz wrote: Plumbers don't use silver solder for copper pipe. It is extremely common in Australia and I can not believe that it is not in UK by professionals. For domestic use on domestic water systems and central heating, etc? No need - 'ordinary' solder is quite strong enough. Could be different on a high pressure system like air conditioning. Of course lead free is the norm on potable water piping now. -- *The modem is the message * Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#11
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
Bull**** detector: claimed welding experience
|
#12
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
Bull**** detector: claimed welding experience
On 16/07/14 14:41, F Murtz wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote: On 16/07/14 05:29, F Murtz wrote: The silver solder that plumbers use for copper pipe is usually only 2% silver Plumbers don't use silver solder for copper pipe. You must have strange plumbing practices or a different set of words. Look at the first one mentioned. http://www.metalspraysupplies.com/ms...lversolder.pdf 2% silver is not 'silver solder' except to people in marketing. -- Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll |
#13
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
Bull**** detector: claimed welding experience
On 16/07/14 14:50, F Murtz wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote: On 16/07/14 05:29, F Murtz wrote: The silver solder that plumbers use for copper pipe is usually only 2% silver Plumbers don't use silver solder for copper pipe. It is extremely common in Australia and I can not believe that it is not in UK by professionals. There is a whole range of fittings made specifically for the purpose. Home handymen have a different range of fittings with a band of soft solder in them, professionals do sometimes soft solder when they can't get their oxy near(or mapp gas in a pinch) Soft solder is not silver solder. It used to be lead/tin but now we have gone lead free its mainly tin IIRC copper and a little silver to help it flow by messing around with the alloys eutectic wotsits. The term SILVER solder refers to a calls of hard high temperature solders with much higher silver content that are not used in plumbing applications. -- Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll |
#14
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
Bull**** detector: claimed welding experience
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 16/07/14 14:50, F Murtz wrote: The Natural Philosopher wrote: On 16/07/14 05:29, F Murtz wrote: The silver solder that plumbers use for copper pipe is usually only 2% silver Plumbers don't use silver solder for copper pipe. It is extremely common in Australia and I can not believe that it is not in UK by professionals. There is a whole range of fittings made specifically for the purpose. Home handymen have a different range of fittings with a band of soft solder in them, professionals do sometimes soft solder when they can't get their oxy near(or mapp gas in a pinch) Soft solder is not silver solder. As I have been trying to explain It used to be lead/tin but now we have gone lead free its mainly tin IIRC copper and a little silver to help it flow by messing around with the alloys eutectic wotsits. The term SILVER solder refers to a calls of hard high temperature solders with much higher silver content that are not used in plumbing applications. Silver solder is a term that manufactures use to describe a high temp harder product that ranges from 2% to a very high percentage of silver Most home handymen use soft solder because it is easier to melt, plumbers use both, depending on how permanent they want or whether the contractor has specified. Plumbers mostly use 2% sometimes 5% it is extremely easy to use if you have oxy acetylene it need no flux copper to copper unless copper to brass It is strange that this news group seems to have a smattering of most trades except plumbers that contribute. |
#15
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
Bull**** detector: claimed welding experience
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 16/07/14 14:41, F Murtz wrote: The Natural Philosopher wrote: On 16/07/14 05:29, F Murtz wrote: The silver solder that plumbers use for copper pipe is usually only 2% silver Plumbers don't use silver solder for copper pipe. You must have strange plumbing practices or a different set of words. Look at the first one mentioned. http://www.metalspraysupplies.com/ms...lversolder.pdf 2% silver is not 'silver solder' except to people in marketing. Not in to semantics in this instance. It is sold as 2% silver solder and is bought by plumbers and called silver solder by them and used to join copper whenever they want a top shelf job. Personally whenever I join copper where It can not be got at again and I do not want it to fail as I have seen so many soft solder joints do I use that erroneously called (by you)silver solder I just asked my plumber son and all the work he does now specify silver solder often 5% but they cheat and use 2%. All commercial work, units blocks of flats and industrial use silver solder most plumbers use silver solder, in some domestic houses a few may use soft solder this 2% and 5% silver solder is called silver solder by the makers the sellers and the users. I do not believe the UK differs much unless they still work in dark age practices Please ask any plumbing relatives or acquaintances you may have and prove me wrong. |
#16
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
Bull**** detector: claimed welding experience
On Thursday, 17 July 2014 08:08:10 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
The term SILVER solder refers to a calls of hard high temperature solders with much higher silver content that are not used in plumbing applications. We've just brought some silver ink, we've had siler paint and silver epoxy in before, not the sort of stuff DIYers might use as it contains real silver as it has to conduct electricity rather than just be a colour choice. |
#17
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
Bull**** detector: claimed welding experience
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote: We've just brought some silver ink, we've had siler paint and silver epoxy in before, not the sort of stuff DIYers might use as it contains real silver as it has to conduct electricity rather than just be a colour choice. Is that similar to the 'paint' used to repair a broken track on a car heated rear window etc? Pricey stuff. -- *Why are they called apartments, when they're all stuck together? * Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#18
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
Bull**** detector: claimed welding experience
On 16/07/2014 14:50, F Murtz wrote:
It is extremely common in Australia and I can not believe that it is not in UK by professionals. If plumbers did actually use silver solder (of whatever percentage silver content), you'd expect them to be able to buy the stuff in plumbers' merchants, would you not? Funny how BES and Screwfix don't appear to sell it. (Of course, maybe I am simply crap at finding it.) -- Rod |
#19
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
Bull**** detector: claimed welding experience
polygonum wrote:
On 16/07/2014 14:50, F Murtz wrote: It is extremely common in Australia and I can not believe that it is not in UK by professionals. If plumbers did actually use silver solder (of whatever percentage silver content), you'd expect them to be able to buy the stuff in plumbers' merchants, would you not? Funny how BES and Screwfix don't appear to sell it. (Of course, maybe I am simply crap at finding it.) May be plumbers buy their stuff at plumbing wholesalers and not at general hardware shops, or if screwfix etc are trade suppliers you are not looking hard enough I can not imagine that the UK is so different to here Anywhere copper is used on new flats, units or multistory living spaces 5% or 2% silver is specified,Small single dwellings now seem to be going plastic but if copper is used it is silver soldered Why don't you do what I suggested and ask a real plumber? |
#20
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
Bull**** detector: claimed welding experience
On 17/07/14 22:35, polygonum wrote:
On 16/07/2014 14:50, F Murtz wrote: It is extremely common in Australia and I can not believe that it is not in UK by professionals. If plumbers did actually use silver solder (of whatever percentage silver content), you'd expect them to be able to buy the stuff in plumbers' merchants, would you not? Funny how BES and Screwfix don't appear to sell it. (Of course, maybe I am simply crap at finding it.) What is the case is that all or nearly all 'lead free' solder has a very small trace of silver in it, so certain people who are ego driven and want to win arguyments rather than impart information, have claimed that this is 'silver solder' when that term was claimed years ago by high temperature solders used in brazing with significantly high silver concentrations. Remember the old legal ruling years ago that 'salmon paste' had to have at least 15% salmon in it, whereas 'Fish paste - Salmon' - need have less than 5%? Or something. -- Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll |
#21
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
Bull**** detector: claimed welding experience
On 17/07/14 10:21, F Murtz wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote: On 16/07/14 14:41, F Murtz wrote: The Natural Philosopher wrote: On 16/07/14 05:29, F Murtz wrote: The silver solder that plumbers use for copper pipe is usually only 2% silver Plumbers don't use silver solder for copper pipe. You must have strange plumbing practices or a different set of words. Look at the first one mentioned. http://www.metalspraysupplies.com/ms...lversolder.pdf 2% silver is not 'silver solder' except to people in marketing. Not in to semantics in this instance. It is sold as 2% silver solder and is bought by plumbers and called silver solder by them and used to join copper whenever they want a top shelf job. Not in this country it isn't. Personally whenever I join copper where It can not be got at again and I do not want it to fail as I have seen so many soft solder joints do I use that erroneously called (by you)silver solder I have never ever seen a so called 'soft' solder plumbing joint fail that was made properly in the first place. It is clear you have not actually done any real life soldering. I just asked my plumber son and all the work he does now specify silver solder often 5% but they cheat and use 2%. yeah right. All commercial work, units blocks of flats and industrial use silver solder most plumbers use silver solder, in some domestic houses a few may use soft solder It is illegal to use lead solder these days. this 2% and 5% silver solder is called silver solder by the makers the sellers and the users. No it isnt. Its called 'lead free solder' http://www.screwfix.com/p/fernox-sol...ead-free/77198 I do not believe the UK differs much Finally he admits he is not in the UK. This is a UK specific NG. ****. unless they still work in dark age practices No, they work in EU specified lead free practices. They simply do not take words with specific meanings and change them for marketing purposes as much as whatever intellectual backwater you inhabit does, Please ask any plumbing relatives or acquaintances you may have and prove me wrong. they all use plumbers solder of the lead free persuasion. -- Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll |
#22
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
Bull**** detector: claimed welding experience
On 18/07/14 05:16, F Murtz wrote:
polygonum wrote: On 16/07/2014 14:50, F Murtz wrote: It is extremely common in Australia and I can not believe that it is not in UK by professionals. If plumbers did actually use silver solder (of whatever percentage silver content), you'd expect them to be able to buy the stuff in plumbers' merchants, would you not? Funny how BES and Screwfix don't appear to sell it. (Of course, maybe I am simply crap at finding it.) May be plumbers buy their stuff at plumbing wholesalers and not at general hardware shops, or if screwfix etc are trade suppliers you are not looking hard enough I can not imagine that the UK is so different to here Anywhere copper is used on new flats, units or multistory living spaces 5% or 2% silver is specified,Small single dwellings now seem to be going plastic but if copper is used it is silver soldered Why don't you do what I suggested and ask a real plumber? Darling I had half a dozen here building my house and bought my lead free solder from the same builders merchants as they did. No one called it 'silver solder' and it isn't 'silver solder', even though it generally has 2% silver in it to help it flow. What you can or cannot imagine appears to be orthogonal to the actual facts of the matter. -- Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll |
#23
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
Bull**** detector: claimed welding experience
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 17/07/14 10:21, F Murtz wrote: The Natural Philosopher wrote: On 16/07/14 14:41, F Murtz wrote: The Natural Philosopher wrote: On 16/07/14 05:29, F Murtz wrote: The silver solder that plumbers use for copper pipe is usually only 2% silver Plumbers don't use silver solder for copper pipe. You must have strange plumbing practices or a different set of words. Look at the first one mentioned. http://www.metalspraysupplies.com/ms...lversolder.pdf 2% silver is not 'silver solder' except to people in marketing. Not in to semantics in this instance. It is sold as 2% silver solder and is bought by plumbers and called silver solder by them and used to join copper whenever they want a top shelf job. Not in this country it isn't. I do not believe you, and wont till you ask a real plumber. Personally whenever I join copper where It can not be got at again and I do not want it to fail as I have seen so many soft solder joints do I use that erroneously called (by you)silver solder I have never ever seen a so called 'soft' solder plumbing joint fail that was made properly in the first place. It is clear you have not actually done any real life soldering. I just asked my plumber son and all the work he does now specify silver solder often 5% but they cheat and use 2%. yeah right. All commercial work, units blocks of flats and industrial use silver solder most plumbers use silver solder, in some domestic houses a few may use soft solder It is illegal to use lead solder these days. Who said anything about lead? this 2% and 5% silver solder is called silver solder by the makers the sellers and the users. No it isnt. Its called 'lead free solder' You are categorically wrong it is not called lead free solder. http://www.metalspraysupplies.com/ms...lversolder.pdf http://www.screwfix.com/p/fernox-sol...ead-free/77198 I do not believe the UK differs much Finally he admits he is not in the UK. This is a UK specific NG. ****. unless they still work in dark age practices No, they work in EU specified lead free practices. They simply do not take words with specific meanings and change them for marketing purposes as much as whatever intellectual backwater you inhabit does, Please ask any plumbing relatives or acquaintances you may have and prove me wrong. they all use plumbers solder of the lead free persuasion. |
#24
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
Bull**** detector: claimed welding experience
On 18/07/14 07:01, F Murtz wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote: On 17/07/14 10:21, F Murtz wrote: The Natural Philosopher wrote: On 16/07/14 14:41, F Murtz wrote: The Natural Philosopher wrote: On 16/07/14 05:29, F Murtz wrote: The silver solder that plumbers use for copper pipe is usually only 2% silver Plumbers don't use silver solder for copper pipe. You must have strange plumbing practices or a different set of words. Look at the first one mentioned. http://www.metalspraysupplies.com/ms...lversolder.pdf 2% silver is not 'silver solder' except to people in marketing. Not in to semantics in this instance. It is sold as 2% silver solder and is bought by plumbers and called silver solder by them and used to join copper whenever they want a top shelf job. Not in this country it isn't. I do not believe you, and wont till you ask a real plumber. OK I just did. The answer is the same. Personally whenever I join copper where It can not be got at again and I do not want it to fail as I have seen so many soft solder joints do I use that erroneously called (by you)silver solder I have never ever seen a so called 'soft' solder plumbing joint fail that was made properly in the first place. It is clear you have not actually done any real life soldering. I just asked my plumber son and all the work he does now specify silver solder often 5% but they cheat and use 2%. yeah right. All commercial work, units blocks of flats and industrial use silver solder most plumbers use silver solder, in some domestic houses a few may use soft solder It is illegal to use lead solder these days. Who said anything about lead? this 2% and 5% silver solder is called silver solder by the makers the sellers and the users. No it isnt. Its called 'lead free solder' You are categorically wrong it is not called lead free solder. http://www.metalspraysupplies.com/ms...lversolder.pdf "check with the MSSA sales team" yeah. The sales blurb from ONE Australian company calls lead free solder 'silver solder' and EVERY OTHER reference on the web calls it lead free solder. shheesh. How narrow minded and parochial can one australian get? http://www.screwfix.com/p/fernox-sol...ead-free/77198 complete disprives you .. I do not believe the UK differs much Finally he admits he is not in the UK. This is a UK specific NG. ****. unless they still work in dark age practices No, they work in EU specified lead free practices. They simply do not take words with specific meanings and change them for marketing purposes as much as whatever intellectual backwater you inhabit does, Please ask any plumbing relatives or acquaintances you may have and prove me wrong. they all use plumbers solder of the lead free persuasion. -- Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll |
#25
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
Bull**** detector: claimed welding experience
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 18/07/14 05:16, F Murtz wrote: polygonum wrote: On 16/07/2014 14:50, F Murtz wrote: It is extremely common in Australia and I can not believe that it is not in UK by professionals. If plumbers did actually use silver solder (of whatever percentage silver content), you'd expect them to be able to buy the stuff in plumbers' merchants, would you not? Funny how BES and Screwfix don't appear to sell it. (Of course, maybe I am simply crap at finding it.) May be plumbers buy their stuff at plumbing wholesalers and not at general hardware shops, or if screwfix etc are trade suppliers you are not looking hard enough I can not imagine that the UK is so different to here Anywhere copper is used on new flats, units or multistory living spaces 5% or 2% silver is specified,Small single dwellings now seem to be going plastic but if copper is used it is silver soldered Why don't you do what I suggested and ask a real plumber? Did you ask them what they used to join copper in new places(not just alterations in old places) Darling I had half a dozen here building my house and bought my lead free solder from the same builders merchants as they did. No one called it 'silver solder' and it isn't 'silver solder', even though it generally has 2% silver in it to help it flow. This is soft solder sometimes containing silver This is not the silver solder I am referring to What you can or cannot imagine appears to be orthogonal to the actual facts of the matter. I think it is a language problem There is silver containing soft solder but I am not referring to that,I am referring to what most countries (except seemingly UK)call silver solder or silver brazing solder.(mostly copper bit of silver and phosphor) http://www.ebay.com/itm/41035-Harris...em259193 f27d Here is a range. http://www.ebay.com/itm/41035-Harris...em259193 f27d This whole subject is absolutely amazing me,I can not believe that the UK differs so much from everywhere else and is using ancient methods that have changed so long ago elsewhere. I am completely baffled as I am having trouble finding the copper phosphor silver alloys in the british plumbing establishments on the net, here you can get it at all hardwares,trade plumbing supplies and all over the place. |
#26
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
Bull**** detector: claimed welding experience
On 18/07/2014 07:31, F Murtz wrote:
I am completely baffled as I am having trouble finding the copper phosphor silver alloys in the british plumbing establishments on the net, here you can get it at all hardwares,trade plumbing supplies and all over the place. You can buy similar products all over the place - but typically not specialist plumbing suppliers. -- Rod |
#27
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
Bull**** detector: claimed welding experience
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 18/07/14 07:01, F Murtz wrote: The Natural Philosopher wrote: On 17/07/14 10:21, F Murtz wrote: The Natural Philosopher wrote: On 16/07/14 14:41, F Murtz wrote: The Natural Philosopher wrote: On 16/07/14 05:29, F Murtz wrote: The silver solder that plumbers use for copper pipe is usually only 2% silver Plumbers don't use silver solder for copper pipe. You must have strange plumbing practices or a different set of words. Look at the first one mentioned. http://www.metalspraysupplies.com/ms...lversolder.pdf 2% silver is not 'silver solder' except to people in marketing. Not in to semantics in this instance. It is sold as 2% silver solder and is bought by plumbers and called silver solder by them and used to join copper whenever they want a top shelf job. Not in this country it isn't. I do not believe you, and wont till you ask a real plumber. OK I just did. The answer is the same. Personally whenever I join copper where It can not be got at again and I do not want it to fail as I have seen so many soft solder joints do I use that erroneously called (by you)silver solder I have never ever seen a so called 'soft' solder plumbing joint fail that was made properly in the first place. It is clear you have not actually done any real life soldering. I just asked my plumber son and all the work he does now specify silver solder often 5% but they cheat and use 2%. yeah right. All commercial work, units blocks of flats and industrial use silver solder most plumbers use silver solder, in some domestic houses a few may use soft solder It is illegal to use lead solder these days. Who said anything about lead? this 2% and 5% silver solder is called silver solder by the makers the sellers and the users. No it isnt. Its called 'lead free solder' You are categorically wrong it is not called lead free solder. http://www.metalspraysupplies.com/ms...lversolder.pdf "check with the MSSA sales team" yeah. The sales blurb from ONE Australian company calls lead free solder 'silver solder' and EVERY OTHER reference on the web calls it lead free solder. At no time was I meaning soft solder.I have been discussing what the makers, users, suppliers, (maybe everywhere but the UK) call 2% or5% silver solder ,a high temperature silver brazing solder made from copper silver and phosphor. shheesh. How narrow minded and parochial can one australian get? http://www.screwfix.com/p/fernox-sol...ead-free/77198 complete disprives you .. I do not believe the UK differs much Finally he admits he is not in the UK. This is a UK specific NG. ****. unless they still work in dark age practices No, they work in EU specified lead free practices. They simply do not take words with specific meanings and change them for marketing purposes as much as whatever intellectual backwater you inhabit does, Please ask any plumbing relatives or acquaintances you may have and prove me wrong. they all use plumbers solder of the lead free persuasion. |
#28
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
Bull**** detector: claimed welding experience
On 18/07/14 07:31, F Murtz wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote: On 18/07/14 05:16, F Murtz wrote: polygonum wrote: On 16/07/2014 14:50, F Murtz wrote: It is extremely common in Australia and I can not believe that it is not in UK by professionals. If plumbers did actually use silver solder (of whatever percentage silver content), you'd expect them to be able to buy the stuff in plumbers' merchants, would you not? Funny how BES and Screwfix don't appear to sell it. (Of course, maybe I am simply crap at finding it.) May be plumbers buy their stuff at plumbing wholesalers and not at general hardware shops, or if screwfix etc are trade suppliers you are not looking hard enough I can not imagine that the UK is so different to here Anywhere copper is used on new flats, units or multistory living spaces 5% or 2% silver is specified,Small single dwellings now seem to be going plastic but if copper is used it is silver soldered Why don't you do what I suggested and ask a real plumber? Did you ask them what they used to join copper in new places(not just alterations in old places) Darling I had half a dozen here building my house and bought my lead free solder from the same builders merchants as they did. No one called it 'silver solder' and it isn't 'silver solder', even though it generally has 2% silver in it to help it flow. This is soft solder sometimes containing silver This is not the silver solder I am referring to What you can or cannot imagine appears to be orthogonal to the actual facts of the matter. I think it is a language problem There is silver containing soft solder but I am not referring to that,I am referring to what most countries (except seemingly UK)call silver solder or silver brazing solder.(mostly copper bit of silver and phosphor) No. That is exactly NOT what you are referring to. Because that is NOT what plumbers use. You cant weasel your way out of the fact that you claimed that plumbers use 'silver solder' I.e whta we call hard solder. They dom not. They use soft solder. http://www.ebay.com/itm/41035-Harris...em259193 f27d Here is a range. http://www.ebay.com/itm/41035-Harris...em259193 f27d This whole subject is absolutely amazing me,I can not believe that the UK differs so much from everywhere else and is using ancient methods that have changed so long ago elsewhere. No, you cannot believe that you don't know what you are talking about. ALL plumbers everywhere in the world use soft solder. None use silver or 'hard' solder except in very high pressure work like radiators for cars or aerospace hydraulics. Or where there is a lot of mechanical stress. I don't call that 'plumbing'. The fact that one Australian company has place soft solder containing some silver under the heading of 'silver solder' and you thought you were being clever, but are in fact being stupid by showing their sales brochure, is another matter entirely I am completely baffled as I am having trouble finding the copper phosphor silver alloys in the british plumbing establishments on the net, here you can get it at all hardwares,trade plumbing supplies and all over the place. No one uses copper phosphor alloys. For soldering. Because its not a solder. That is a brazing rod composition. I.e hard solder. Soft solder is sub 400C melting point. Hard solder is 400C melting point and is generally called 'brazing' or sometimes - because early hard solders and brazing rods ERE mainly silver - silver soldering. Soft solders are what is used in electronics and 99% of plumbing. Tin lead solder is the best, but recent alarms over lead have lead to tin-copper with a little silver being substituted. Hard solders vary enormously. from high sliver and gold for jewelry work, to copper silver and phosphorus for high temp brass and bronze joints. They were developed in the UK, in Europe and in the USA ling before Australians even heard of brazing. Its seems they haven't heard yet actually. And think its the same as soldering. Hence the confusion. -- Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll |
#29
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
Bull**** detector: claimed welding experience
On 18/07/14 07:51, F Murtz wrote:
At no time was I meaning soft solder.I have been discussing what the makers, users, suppliers, (maybe everywhere but the UK) call 2% or5% silver solder ,a high temperature silver brazing solder made from copper silver and phosphor. 2% silver is a soft solder. The fact is you don't know what you are talking about at all. Hard silver solder has a lot more than 2 or 5% Ag in it. |
#30
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
Bull**** detector: claimed welding experience
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 18/07/14 07:51, F Murtz wrote: At no time was I meaning soft solder.I have been discussing what the makers, users, suppliers, (maybe everywhere but the UK) call 2% or5% silver solder ,a high temperature silver brazing solder made from copper silver and phosphor. 2% silver is a soft solder. The fact is you don't know what you are talking about at all. Hard silver solder has a lot more than 2 or 5% Ag in it. Words again, I have shown links to the sort of hard as opposed to soft solder (brazing)rod that I am referring to. http://www.metalspraysupplies.com/ms...lversolder.pdf Especially the first referred to in the case of plumbing. If you wish to carry on with semantics so be it but by now every one else know which solder I refer to by "silver solder" |
#31
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
Bull**** detector: claimed welding experience
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 18/07/14 07:31, F Murtz wrote: The Natural Philosopher wrote: On 18/07/14 05:16, F Murtz wrote: polygonum wrote: On 16/07/2014 14:50, F Murtz wrote: It is extremely common in Australia and I can not believe that it is not in UK by professionals. If plumbers did actually use silver solder (of whatever percentage silver content), you'd expect them to be able to buy the stuff in plumbers' merchants, would you not? Funny how BES and Screwfix don't appear to sell it. (Of course, maybe I am simply crap at finding it.) May be plumbers buy their stuff at plumbing wholesalers and not at general hardware shops, or if screwfix etc are trade suppliers you are not looking hard enough I can not imagine that the UK is so different to here Anywhere copper is used on new flats, units or multistory living spaces 5% or 2% silver is specified,Small single dwellings now seem to be going plastic but if copper is used it is silver soldered Why don't you do what I suggested and ask a real plumber? Did you ask them what they used to join copper in new places(not just alterations in old places) Darling I had half a dozen here building my house and bought my lead free solder from the same builders merchants as they did. No one called it 'silver solder' and it isn't 'silver solder', even though it generally has 2% silver in it to help it flow. This is soft solder sometimes containing silver This is not the silver solder I am referring to What you can or cannot imagine appears to be orthogonal to the actual facts of the matter. I think it is a language problem There is silver containing soft solder but I am not referring to that,I am referring to what most countries (except seemingly UK)call silver solder or silver brazing solder.(mostly copper bit of silver and phosphor) No. That is exactly NOT what you are referring to. Because that is NOT what plumbers use. You cant weasel your way out of the fact that you claimed that plumbers use 'silver solder' I.e whta we call hard solder. They dom not. They use soft solder. http://www.ebay.com/itm/41035-Harris...em259193 f27d Here is a range. http://www.ebay.com/itm/41035-Harris...em259193 f27d This whole subject is absolutely amazing me,I can not believe that the UK differs so much from everywhere else and is using ancient methods that have changed so long ago elsewhere. No, you cannot believe that you don't know what you are talking about. ALL plumbers everywhere in the world use soft solder. None use silver or 'hard' solder except in very high pressure work like radiators for cars or aerospace hydraulics. Or where there is a lot of mechanical stress. I don't call that 'plumbing'. That is complete provable rubbish. Plumbers do use soft solder on occasion and always have BUT all in Australia use and have used 2% or 5% (copper silver phosphor alloy)For joining copper pipes extensively in normal water piping for residential and commercial for years I have been assuming that we just copied places like the UK but it seem we are ahead and copy world best practice instead of the old The fact that one Australian company has place soft solder containing some silver under the heading of 'silver solder' and you thought you were being clever, but are in fact being stupid by showing their sales brochure, is another matter entirely I am completely baffled as I am having trouble finding the copper phosphor silver alloys in the british plumbing establishments on the net, here you can get it at all hardwares,trade plumbing supplies and all over the place. No one uses copper phosphor alloys. For soldering. Because its not a solder. That is a brazing rod composition. I.e hard solder. Soft solder is sub 400C melting point. Hard solder is 400C melting point and is generally called 'brazing' or sometimes - because early hard solders and brazing rods ERE mainly silver - silver soldering. Soft solders are what is used in electronics and 99% of plumbing. Tin lead solder is the best, but recent alarms over lead have lead to tin-copper with a little silver being substituted. Hard solders vary enormously. from high sliver and gold for jewelry work, to copper silver and phosphorus for high temp brass and bronze joints. They were developed in the UK, in Europe and in the USA ling before Australians even heard of brazing. Its seems they haven't heard yet actually. And think its the same as soldering. Hence the confusion. |
#32
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
Bull**** detector: claimed welding experience
F Murtz wrote:
all in Australia use and have used 2% or 5% (copper silver phosphor alloy)For joining copper pipes extensively in normal water piping for residential and commercial for years How much tin does Australia mine? Could it just be you have lots of copper/phosphor and silver is what makes those work in combination as a solder? I have been assuming that we just copied places like the UK but it seem we are ahead and copy world best practice instead of the old Yet you don't know if or how it's "better"? |
#33
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
Bull**** detector: claimed welding experience
In article m,
F Murtz wrote: May be plumbers buy their stuff at plumbing wholesalers and not at general hardware shops, or if screwfix etc are trade suppliers you are not looking hard enough In the UK you'd be hard pressed to find a 'general hardware store' these days. And there are also virtually no trade only suppliers. I can not imagine that the UK is so different to here Anywhere copper is used on new flats, units or multistory living spaces 5% or 2% silver is specified, Ah. You seem to be talking about so called lead free *soft* solder. Which does contain small amounts of silver. It is now the norm in the UK too - sadly. In the UK, silver solder refers to a form of *hard* solder containing perhaps 40% silver. More akin to brazing than soldering. It could be that is used for some specialised copper pipe jointing - but would be expensive and unnecessary for domestic heating systems. Small single dwellings now seem to be going plastic but if copper is used it is silver soldered Why don't you do what I suggested and ask a real plumber? -- *A day without sunshine is like... night.* Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#34
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
Bull**** detector: claimed welding experience
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article m, F Murtz wrote: May be plumbers buy their stuff at plumbing wholesalers and not at general hardware shops, or if screwfix etc are trade suppliers you are not looking hard enough In the UK you'd be hard pressed to find a 'general hardware store' these days. And there are also virtually no trade only suppliers. I can not imagine that the UK is so different to here Anywhere copper is used on new flats, units or multistory living spaces 5% or 2% silver is specified, Ah. You seem to be talking about so called lead free *soft* solder. Which does contain small amounts of silver. It is now the norm in the UK too - sadly. No I am talking about the first on this list http://www.metalspraysupplies.com/ms...lversolder.pdf In the UK, silver solder refers to a form of *hard* solder containing perhaps 40% silver. More akin to brazing than soldering. It could be that is used for some specialised copper pipe jointing - but would be expensive and unnecessary for domestic heating systems. Small single dwellings now seem to be going plastic but if copper is used it is silver soldered Why don't you do what I suggested and ask a real plumber? |
#35
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
Bull**** detector: claimed welding experience
Andy Burns wrote
F Murtz wrote all in Australia use and have used 2% or 5% (copper silver phosphor alloy) For joining copper pipes extensively in normal water piping for residential and commercial for years How much tin does Australia mine? Hell of a lot more than Britain. http://www.indexmundi.com/minerals/?product=tin Could it just be you have lots of copper/phosphor and silver is what makes those work in combination as a solder? Nope. I have been assuming that we just copied places like the UK but it seem we are ahead and copy world best practice instead of the old Yet you don't know if or how it's "better"? It must be if its specified for some work. |
#36
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
Bull**** detector: claimed welding experience
In article m,
F Murtz wrote: Ah. You seem to be talking about so called lead free *soft* solder. Which does contain small amounts of silver. It is now the norm in the UK too - sadly. No I am talking about the first on this list http://www.metalspraysupplies.com/ms...lversolder.pdf Must be an Oz thing - referring to all 'solders' containing tiny amounts of silver as silver solder. By that, UK lead free solder is also silver solder. But judging by the apostrophe use in that document English isn't a strong point anyway. -- *To err is human. To forgive is against company policy. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#37
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
Bull**** detector: claimed welding experience
In article ,
Rod Speed wrote: I have been assuming that we just copied places like the UK but it seem we are ahead and copy world best practice instead of the old Yet you don't know if or how it's "better"? It must be if its specified for some work. Which would infer the UK is full of leaks caused by soft solder failure on copper pipes. It's not. Only one I've seen which failed (having been properly made) was caused by a pipe freezing and forcing the joint apart. Rather easier to fix than a much stronger joint which could have caused the pipe to split. Some of the Oz regs make the EU seem like anarchy. -- *If a parsley farmer is sued, can they garnish his wages? Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#38
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
Bull**** detector: claimed welding experience
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article m, F Murtz wrote: Ah. You seem to be talking about so called lead free *soft* solder. Which does contain small amounts of silver. It is now the norm in the UK too - sadly. No I am talking about the first on this list http://www.metalspraysupplies.com/ms...lversolder.pdf Must be an Oz thing - referring to all 'solders' containing tiny amounts of silver as silver solder. By that, UK lead free solder is also silver solder. No one seems to comprehend, silver solder to us is sticks of stuff that take a lot of heat to melt all the others are just solder or soft solder this is in most of the trades metalworking, electrical, plumbing, air con refrigeration etc I was electrical and worked alongside every industrial trade there is and silver solder was wire like sticks of hard stuff to all of them, solder was usually a thick lump of stuff that melted with an iron and in the electrical trade sometimes came on a spool with flux in it usually rosin sometimes acid. In the electronic trades some may call some soft solders silver solder if they contain silver You notice that I am not talking technically, so everyone should understand. But judging by the apostrophe use in that document English isn't a strong point anyway. |
#39
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
Bull**** detector: claimed welding experience
In article om,
F Murtz wrote: No one seems to comprehend, silver solder to us is sticks of stuff that take a lot of heat to melt all the others are just solder or soft solder Right. You should have made it clear you didn't understand (or care about) the differences. Rather than tell many here they were wrong. -- *A cartoonist was found dead in his home. Details are sketchy.* Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#40
Posted to uk.d-i-y
|
|||
|
|||
Bull**** detector: claimed welding experience
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article , Rod Speed wrote: I have been assuming that we just copied places like the UK but it seem we are ahead and copy world best practice instead of the old Yet you don't know if or how it's "better"? It must be if its specified for some work. Which would infer the UK is full of leaks caused by soft solder failure on copper pipes. It's not. Only one I've seen which failed (having been properly made) was caused by a pipe freezing and forcing the joint apart. Rather easier to fix than a much stronger joint which could have caused the pipe to split. Some of the Oz regs make the EU seem like anarchy. In a few trades , but we just ignore them all, hardware shops and some supermarkets sell all the materials for all those trades to the general public. I have never had any trade do any of my work (I have a plumber son but I still do my own plumbing, he is handy to dig holes with the excavator if I need them, I do not use mechanics for bike or car I don't use panel beaters or spray painters except if someone elses insurances does it I fix my own electronics tv etc.If I want a long trailer I make it(showed a pic a while back) |
Reply |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Forum | |||
Digital bullshit | Electronics Repair | |||
Over-claimed efficiency of CFL energy saving light bulbs | UK diy | |||
Smoke detector and CO detector installed next to each other? | Home Repair | |||
Brazing/welding router bits: experience? | Woodworking |