Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article om,
F Murtz wrote:
No one seems to comprehend, silver solder to us is sticks of stuff that
take a lot of heat to melt all the others are just solder or soft solder

Right. You should have made it clear you didn't understand (or care about)
the differences. Rather than tell many here they were wrong.

The problem was that the discussion started out as a simple discussion
about copper joining in Australia and did UK do the same I was then
jumped on from a great height with long dissertations on the various
aspects of soft solder which was not anything to do with what I was
thinking except as a different method of jointing
I think a lot of the friction was because your lot uses different
verbiage to my lot
I still can not see how anyone would think soft solder is as strong as
silver solder
If I soldered a copper pipe to a brass fitting using copper phosphor
silver alloys and did the same thing using soft solder,Then exposed them
to the same forces, as you may get in some extreme wall flexing or
expansion contraction for instance, I know which one I think may go first.
That may be what differs with UK and Australia, weather variations may
be more extreme here and cause more flexing?

On Fri, 18 Jul 2014 05:36:55 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 17/07/14 10:21, F Murtz wrote:

this 2% and 5% silver solder is called silver solder by the makers the
sellers and the users.

No it isnt. Its called 'lead free solder'


So what do you call this?
http://uk.farnell.com/multicore-sold...500g/dp/419588

(62% Tin, 36% Lead, 2% Silver)

and this?

http://uk.farnell.com/multicore-sold...500g/dp/419590

(93.5 Lead, 5% Tin, 1.5% Silver)


--

On Fri, 18 Jul 2014 05:42:57 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

Darling I had half a dozen here building my house and bought my lead
free solder from the same builders merchants as they did.

No one called it 'silver solder' and it isn't 'silver solder', even
though it generally has 2% silver in it to help it flow.

Have you got a link to a UK supplier that shows the specifications because all
I've ever seen in the UK for plumbing purposes is almost 100% tin and topped off
with tiny amount of copper. Like everything mandated by the EU it's **** and
does **** all to reduce lead levels in drinking water.

--

On 18/07/2014 13:13, The Other Mike wrote:
On Fri, 18 Jul 2014 05:36:55 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 17/07/14 10:21, F Murtz wrote:

this 2% and 5% silver solder is called silver solder by the makers the
sellers and the users.

No it isnt. Its called 'lead free solder'


So what do you call this?
http://uk.farnell.com/multicore-sold...500g/dp/419588

(62% Tin, 36% Lead, 2% Silver)

and this?

http://uk.farnell.com/multicore-sold...500g/dp/419590

(93.5 Lead, 5% Tin, 1.5% Silver)


As a first approach, I'd call them both solder, or soft solder. the
first type is pretty close to a eutectic alloy, the second type is close
to what I'd have used to make wiped joints on lead plumbing. Which is a
skill I've probably lost over the decades.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

In article om,
F Murtz wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article om,
F Murtz wrote:
No one seems to comprehend, silver solder to us is sticks of stuff
that take a lot of heat to melt all the others are just solder or
soft solder

Right. You should have made it clear you didn't understand (or care
about) the differences. Rather than tell many here they were wrong.

The problem was that the discussion started out as a simple discussion
about copper joining in Australia and did UK do the same I was then
jumped on from a great height with long dissertations on the various
aspects of soft solder which was not anything to do with what I was
thinking except as a different method of jointing

I thought it was because what you called silver solder isn't the same as
in the UK. And then moved on to other things.

I think a lot of the friction was because your lot uses different
verbiage to my lot

To avoid confusion, this being a UK group, it would be good if we all sang
from the same song sheet? That doesn't inhibit discussion on the various
ways of doing things. Although, of course,the UK way is always best. ;-)

I still can not see how anyone would think soft solder is as strong as
silver solder If I soldered a copper pipe to a brass fitting using
copper phosphor silver alloys and did the same thing using soft
solder,Then exposed them to the same forces, as you may get in some
extreme wall flexing or expansion contraction for instance, I know
which one I think may go first.

It's poor practice to expose any joint to unnecessary movement. It should
be supported either side if there is likelihood of flexing. If this is
very likely, use a flexible coupling.

That may be what differs with UK and Australia, weather variations may
be more extreme here and cause more flexing?

If there is considerable expansion due to heat (you get temperatures more
than the 80C or so found in a central heating system?) you'd add proper
means to cope with that expansion.

It could be, of course, that Oz fittings designed to be 'soldered' to
copper tube are of a very different design to UK capillary fittings,
designed for soft soldering.

--
*WHY IS THERE AN EXPIRATION DATE ON SOUR CREAM?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article om,
F Murtz wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article om,
F Murtz wrote:
No one seems to comprehend, silver solder to us is sticks of stuff
that take a lot of heat to melt all the others are just solder or
soft solder

Right. You should have made it clear you didn't understand (or care
about) the differences. Rather than tell many here they were wrong.

The problem was that the discussion started out as a simple discussion
about copper joining in Australia and did UK do the same I was then
jumped on from a great height with long dissertations on the various
aspects of soft solder which was not anything to do with what I was
thinking except as a different method of jointing

I thought it was because what you called silver solder isn't the same as
in the UK. And then moved on to other things.

I think a lot of the friction was because your lot uses different
verbiage to my lot

To avoid confusion, this being a UK group, it would be good if we all sang
from the same song sheet? That doesn't inhibit discussion on the various
ways of doing things. Although, of course,the UK way is always best. ;-)

I still can not see how anyone would think soft solder is as strong as
silver solder If I soldered a copper pipe to a brass fitting using
copper phosphor silver alloys and did the same thing using soft
solder,Then exposed them to the same forces, as you may get in some
extreme wall flexing or expansion contraction for instance, I know
which one I think may go first.

It's poor practice to expose any joint to unnecessary movement. It should
be supported either side if there is likelihood of flexing. If this is
very likely, use a flexible coupling.

That may be what differs with UK and Australia, weather variations may
be more extreme here and cause more flexing?

If there is considerable expansion due to heat (you get temperatures more
than the 80C or so found in a central heating system?) you'd add proper
means to cope with that expansion.
I was thinking more environmental variations causing building flexing at
a different rate to the copper, from freezing to over 50%C
although most of us don't get that.
This is not necessarily anything to do with it, just trying to think why
we should differ so much in plumbing methods.
It is a pity that there does not seem to be any plumbers in this group
so we could know for instance what happens in concrete slabs We have to
use covered copper to stop the reaction with the cement and any joints
have to be silver soldered(brazed)What does your mob do?

It could be, of course, that Oz fittings designed to be 'soldered' to
copper tube are of a very different design to UK capillary fittings,
designed for soft soldering.

The Other Mike wrote:
On Fri, 18 Jul 2014 05:36:55 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 17/07/14 10:21, F Murtz wrote:

this 2% and 5% silver solder is called silver solder by the makers the
sellers and the users.

No it isnt. Its called 'lead free solder'


So what do you call this?
http://uk.farnell.com/multicore-sold...500g/dp/419588

(62% Tin, 36% Lead, 2% Silver)

and this?

http://uk.farnell.com/multicore-sold...500g/dp/419590

(93.5 Lead, 5% Tin, 1.5% Silver)


Soft solder (unless maybe I am in sections of the electronics trade)
All this squabbling over what different people call thing gets us no where
http://www.lucasmilhaupt.com/en-US/p...orusalloys/10/

And this one says both
http://www.eastcoastweldingsupplies....lver%20welding

On 18/07/14 10:40, F Murtz wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article m,
F Murtz wrote:
May be plumbers buy their stuff at plumbing wholesalers and not at
general hardware shops, or if screwfix etc are trade suppliers you are
not looking hard enough

In the UK you'd be hard pressed to find a 'general hardware store' these
days. And there are also virtually no trade only suppliers.

I can not imagine that the UK is so different to here
Anywhere copper is used on new flats, units or multistory living spaces
5% or 2% silver is specified,

Ah. You seem to be talking about so called lead free *soft* solder. Which
does contain small amounts of silver. It is now the norm in the UK too -
sadly.

No I am talking about the first on this list

http://www.metalspraysupplies.com/ms...lversolder.pdf


That's a brazing material and is not much use ans well as being being
very expensive for non critical plumbing.

Plumbers don't use it for DHW and CH useage.





In the UK, silver solder refers to a form of *hard* solder containing
perhaps 40% silver. More akin to brazing than soldering.

It could be that is used for some specialised copper pipe jointing - but
would be expensive and unnecessary for domestic heating systems.


Small single dwellings now seem to be going
plastic but if copper is used it is silver soldered
Why don't you do what I suggested and ask a real plumber?




--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

"The Other Mike" wrote in message
...

On Fri, 18 Jul 2014 05:36:55 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 17/07/14 10:21, F Murtz wrote:

this 2% and 5% silver solder is called silver solder by the makers the
sellers and the users.

No it isnt. Its called 'lead free solder'


So what do you call this?
http://uk.farnell.com/multicore-sold...500g/dp/419588

(62% Tin, 36% Lead, 2% Silver)

and this?

http://uk.farnell.com/multicore-sold...500g/dp/419590

(93.5 Lead, 5% Tin, 1.5% Silver)

That's also lead free solder. They only charge for the tin and silver
content.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote
Rod Speed wrote

I have been assuming that we just copied places like the UK but it
seem we are ahead and copy world best practice instead of the old

Yet you don't know if or how it's "better"?

It must be if its specified for some work.

Which would infer the UK is full of leaks
caused by soft solder failure on copper pipes.

No, it just means that some specify what
is better for the more important work.

It's not.

Having fun thrashing that straw man ?

Only one I've seen which failed (having been properly made) was caused
by a pipe freezing and forcing the joint apart. Rather easier to fix than
a
much stronger joint which could have caused the pipe to split.

Some of the Oz regs make the EU seem like anarchy.

Sure. Certainly some of ours are there as part of a closed shop system.

That's a separate issue to the type of solder
specified tho. That isnt done by regulation.

In article ,
Rod Speed wrote:
Which would infer the UK is full of leaks
caused by soft solder failure on copper pipes.

No, it just means that some specify what
is better for the more important work.

I'd find a leak here important. Perhaps not as important as a leak on a
space shuttle. Could be you need to tell them how to joint their pipes too.

It's not.

Having fun thrashing that straw man ?

Only one I've seen which failed (having been properly made) was caused
by a pipe freezing and forcing the joint apart. Rather easier to fix
than a much stronger joint which could have caused the pipe to split.

Some of the Oz regs make the EU seem like anarchy.

Sure. Certainly some of ours are there as part of a closed shop system.

Not at the instigation of business? Makes a change.

That's a separate issue to the type of solder
specified tho. That isnt done by regulation.

Just by architects with a bee in their bonnet then. Because there is no
need for a stronger joint than soft solder can provide. Anything stronger
is overkill.

If you are so certain only a brazed joint is satisfactory, please provide
the evidence. There are plenty here who can provide evidence that soft
soldered ones are just fine.

--
*Sorry, I don't date outside my species.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"F Murtz" wrote in message
eb.com...
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article om,
F Murtz wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article om,
F Murtz wrote:
No one seems to comprehend, silver solder to us is sticks of stuff
that take a lot of heat to melt all the others are just solder or
soft solder

Right. You should have made it clear you didn't understand (or care
about) the differences. Rather than tell many here they were wrong.

The problem was that the discussion started out as a simple discussion
about copper joining in Australia and did UK do the same I was then
jumped on from a great height with long dissertations on the various
aspects of soft solder which was not anything to do with what I was
thinking except as a different method of jointing

I thought it was because what you called silver solder isn't the same as
in the UK. And then moved on to other things.

I think a lot of the friction was because your lot uses different
verbiage to my lot

To avoid confusion, this being a UK group, it would be good if we all
sang
from the same song sheet? That doesn't inhibit discussion on the various
ways of doing things. Although, of course,the UK way is always best. ;-)

I still can not see how anyone would think soft solder is as strong as
silver solder If I soldered a copper pipe to a brass fitting using
copper phosphor silver alloys and did the same thing using soft
solder,Then exposed them to the same forces, as you may get in some
extreme wall flexing or expansion contraction for instance, I know
which one I think may go first.

It's poor practice to expose any joint to unnecessary movement. It should
be supported either side if there is likelihood of flexing. If this is
very likely, use a flexible coupling.

That may be what differs with UK and Australia, weather variations may
be more extreme here and cause more flexing?

If there is considerable expansion due to heat (you get temperatures more
than the 80C or so found in a central heating system?) you'd add proper
means to cope with that expansion.
I was thinking more environmental variations causing building flexing at a
different rate to the copper, from freezing to over 50%C
although most of us don't get that.

This is not necessarily anything to do with it, just trying to think why
we should differ so much in plumbing methods.

It is a pity that there does not seem to be any plumbers in this group so
we could know for instance what happens in concrete slabs We have to use
covered copper to stop the reaction with the cement and any joints have to
be silver soldered(brazed)

My house built in the very early 70s with all the plumbing under
the slab isnt brazed. The plumbers did braze a couple of joints,
but that was because they were well down in a hole in the
slab and the propane torch they used for the yorkshire fittings
didn't get enough air to burn properly, so they brazed those.

What does your mob do?

It could be, of course, that Oz fittings designed to be 'soldered' to
copper tube are of a very different design to UK capillary fittings,
designed for soft soldering.

Nope, same system here.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote
Rod Speed wrote

Which would infer the UK is full of leaks
caused by soft solder failure on copper pipes.

No, it just means that some specify what
is better for the more important work.

I'd find a leak here important.

Sure, but I doubt many have ever had a leak with
yorkshire fittings done properly in the sense of
cleaning the pipe properly before its soldered.

Maybe that's why they specify the other approach,
since it has to be heated to a lot higher temp,
maybe that means that there are fewer bad joints.

Only one I've seen which failed (having been properly made) was caused
by a pipe freezing and forcing the joint apart. Rather easier to fix
than a much stronger joint which could have caused the pipe to split.

Some of the Oz regs make the EU seem like anarchy.

Sure. Certainly some of ours are there as part of a closed shop system.

Not at the instigation of business?

They are at the instigation of business. They appear to have
been done that way to ensure the employment of the tradies.

With electrical work, you don’t get a license just by
completely an apprenticeship successfully either,
the contractor's license is quite separate from
what you need to have to do the work when
employed by an electrical contractor.

That appears to have been deliberately done
that way to make it harder for apprentices to
setup on their own as soon as they qualify.
Presumably to encourage contractors to have
apprentices because they cant compete as
soon as they qualify.

Makes a change.

Not in this case.

That's a separate issue to the type of solder
specified tho. That isnt done by regulation.

Just by architects with a bee in their bonnet then.

Not so much with a bee in their bonnet as just believing
that some approaches are better than others. I wouldn’t
be surprised if that one is mostly just how they have
always done things without much analysis of why
it is usually done that way in blocks of flats etc.

Because there is no need for a stronger joint than
soft solder can provide. Anything stronger is overkill.

Sure, but like I said, it might be that that approach does
see the joints done more reliably rather than stronger
and that may be why they specify that, for work that is
harder to do again when its under the concrete slab etc.

If you are so certain only a brazed joint is
satisfactory, please provide the evidence.

I didn’t say that I believe that. I in fact have yorkshire
fittings used on copper plumbing in my house. The
plumbers did brazed a couple of joints, but that was
because they were down in a hole in the concrete
slab for some reason I have now forgotten and I
was told by the plumber that he had brazed it
because the normal propane torch wouldn’t
have got the joint hot enough because there
was a shortage of air in the hole. So he brazed
it using any oxy which has its own oxygen supply.

There are plenty here who can provide evidence
that soft soldered ones are just fine.

I have that evidence myself, that’s how my house is done.

Corse none of my pipes ever freeze, it doesn’t
get cold enough for that where my house is.

In article ,
Rod Speed wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote
Rod Speed wrote

Which would infer the UK is full of leaks
caused by soft solder failure on copper pipes.

No, it just means that some specify what
is better for the more important work.

I'd find a leak here important.

Sure, but I doubt many have ever had a leak with
yorkshire fittings done properly in the sense of
cleaning the pipe properly before its soldered.

I don't use Yorkshires. Very expensive way of buying solder - and they
don't look as good as ordinary capillary.

Maybe that's why they specify the other approach,
since it has to be heated to a lot higher temp,
maybe that means that there are fewer bad joints.

Any jointing done poorly can leak. I'm not convinced one is easier than
the other to do correctly. I do guess that brazing is considerably more
expensive in materials used and tools needed.

Only one I've seen which failed (having been properly made) was
caused by a pipe freezing and forcing the joint apart. Rather easier
to fix than a much stronger joint which could have caused the pipe
to split.

Some of the Oz regs make the EU seem like anarchy.

Sure. Certainly some of ours are there as part of a closed shop
system.

Not at the instigation of business?

They are at the instigation of business. They appear to have
been done that way to ensure the employment of the tradies.

Yeh - right. Easy to see which side of the political spectrum you're on.

--
*The problem with the gene pool is that there is no lifeguard *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Dave Plowman (News) wrote
Rod Speed wrote

Which would infer the UK is full of leaks
caused by soft solder failure on copper pipes.

No, it just means that some specify what
is better for the more important work.

I'd find a leak here important.

Sure, but I doubt many have ever had a leak with
yorkshire fittings done properly in the sense of
cleaning the pipe properly before its soldered.

I don't use Yorkshires. Very expensive way of buying solder

Not here.

- and they don't look as good as ordinary capillary.

This is under the slab, you can't see it.

Maybe that's why they specify the other approach,
since it has to be heated to a lot higher temp,
maybe that means that there are fewer bad joints.

Any jointing done poorly can leak. I'm not convinced
one is easier than the other to do correctly.

I am, essentially because the brazing is done
at a much higher temp and doesn’t require the
pipe to be cleaned as well to get a proper joint.

I do guess that brazing is considerably
more expensive in materials used

That's bull****.

and tools needed.

And that is too when you have to have the tools for when
brazing is the only viable approach because the propane torch
wont work properly because the air can't get to the head.

Only one I've seen which failed (having been properly made) was
caused by a pipe freezing and forcing the joint apart. Rather easier
to fix than a much stronger joint which could have caused the pipe
to split.

Some of the Oz regs make the EU seem like anarchy.

Sure. Certainly some of ours are there as part of a closed shop system.

Not at the instigation of business?

They are at the instigation of business. They appear to have
been done that way to ensure the employment of the tradies.

Yeh - right. Easy to see which side of the political spectrum you're on.

You're face down in the mud, again.

In article ,
Rod Speed wrote:
I don't use Yorkshires. Very expensive way of buying solder

Not here.

50 15 mm couplers cost 7.84 capillary, 13.86 yorkshire here. I'd call that
an expensive way of buying solder.

- and they don't look as good as ordinary capillary.

This is under the slab, you can't see it.

Yes, pet.

Maybe that's why they specify the other approach,
since it has to be heated to a lot higher temp,
maybe that means that there are fewer bad joints.

Any jointing done poorly can leak. I'm not convinced
one is easier than the other to do correctly.

I am, essentially because the brazing is done
at a much higher temp and doesn’t require the
pipe to be cleaned as well to get a proper joint.

Doesn't require it to be cleaned at all? If it does need cleaning only
takes a couple of seconds to clean new fittings for soft solder. Can't see
any lesser cleaning being quicker.

I do guess that brazing is considerably
more expensive in materials used

That's bull****.

and tools needed.

And that is too when you have to have the tools for when
brazing is the only viable approach because the propane torch
wont work properly because the air can't get to the head.

Brazing is never the only viable approach to jointing copper pipes for
domestic use. If it were, plumbers in the UK would use it.

--
*On the other hand, you have different fingers*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote
Rod Speed wrote:

Maybe that's why they specify the other approach,
since it has to be heated to a lot higher temp,
maybe that means that there are fewer bad joints.

Any jointing done poorly can leak. I'm not convinced
one is easier than the other to do correctly.

I am, essentially because the brazing is done
at a much higher temp and doesn't require the
pipe to be cleaned as well to get a proper joint.

Doesn't require it to be cleaned at all?

Not with new stuff.

If it does need cleaning only takes a couple of seconds to clean new
fittings for soft solder. Can't see any lesser cleaning being quicker.

Never said anything about quicker.

Brazing may be specified because its more likely to be done right.

I do guess that brazing is considerably
more expensive in materials used

That's bull****.

and tools needed.

And that is too when you have to have the tools for when
brazing is the only viable approach because the propane torch
wont work properly because the air can't get to the head.

Brazing is never the only viable approach
to jointing copper pipes for domestic use.

I never said anything like that.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Rod Speed wrote:
I don't use Yorkshires. Very expensive way of buying solder

Not here.

50 15 mm couplers cost 7.84 capillary, 13.86 yorkshire here. I'd call that
an expensive way of buying solder.

- and they don't look as good as ordinary capillary.

This is under the slab, you can't see it.

Yes, pet.

Maybe that's why they specify the other approach,
since it has to be heated to a lot higher temp,
maybe that means that there are fewer bad joints.

Any jointing done poorly can leak. I'm not convinced
one is easier than the other to do correctly.

I am, essentially because the brazing is done
at a much higher temp and doesn’t require the
pipe to be cleaned as well to get a proper joint.

Doesn't require it to be cleaned at all? If it does need cleaning only
takes a couple of seconds to clean new fittings for soft solder. Can't see
any lesser cleaning being quicker.
It is possible to braze old, tarnished and slightly dirty copper without
flux but not soft solder.

I do guess that brazing is considerably
more expensive in materials used

That's bull****.

and tools needed.

And that is too when you have to have the tools for when
brazing is the only viable approach because the propane torch
wont work properly because the air can't get to the head.

Brazing is never the only viable approach to jointing copper pipes for
domestic use. If it were, plumbers in the UK would use it.

soft soldering is never the only viable approach to jointing copper
pipes for
domestic use. If it were, plumbers in Australia would use it.

Rod Speed wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote
Rod Speed wrote:

Maybe that's why they specify the other approach,
since it has to be heated to a lot higher temp,
maybe that means that there are fewer bad joints.

Any jointing done poorly can leak. I'm not convinced
one is easier than the other to do correctly.

I am, essentially because the brazing is done
at a much higher temp and doesn't require the
pipe to be cleaned as well to get a proper joint.

Doesn't require it to be cleaned at all?

Not with new stuff.
If it does need cleaning only takes a couple of seconds to clean new
fittings for soft solder. Can't see any lesser cleaning being quicker.

Never said anything about quicker.
Brazing may be specified because its more likely to be done right.
I do guess that brazing is considerably
more expensive in materials used

That's bull****.

and tools needed.

And that is too when you have to have the tools for when
brazing is the only viable approach because the propane torch
wont work properly because the air can't get to the head.

Brazing is never the only viable approach to jointing copper pipes for
domestic use.

I never said anything like that.

Neither did I, Just better

In article om,
F Murtz wrote:
Doesn't require it to be cleaned at all? If it does need cleaning only
takes a couple of seconds to clean new fittings for soft solder. Can't
see any lesser cleaning being quicker.

It is possible to braze old, tarnished and slightly dirty copper without
flux but not soft solder.

You've never used Everflux, then.

--
*You know you're a redneck if your home has wheels and your car doesn't.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Rod Speed wrote:
And that is too when you have to have the tools for when
brazing is the only viable approach because the propane torch
wont work properly because the air can't get to the head.

Brazing is never the only viable approach
to jointing copper pipes for domestic use.

I never said anything like that.

Then pray tell what you meant rather than wrote. Not that it makes any
difference, as you're wrong anyway.

--
*If a thing is worth doing, wouldn't it have been done already?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote
Rod Speed wrote

And that is too when you have to have the tools for when
brazing is the only viable approach because the propane torch
wont work properly because the air can't get to the head.

Brazing is never the only viable approach
to jointing copper pipes for domestic use.

I never said anything like that.

Then pray tell what you meant rather than wrote.

I never wrote anything like that either.