polygonum wrote:
[snip]

I've always thought that extra weight is a significant penalty when
climbing hills and when accelerating, but relatively little penalty when
travelling at a more or less constant speed on a moderately flat motorway.

Cars like the Fiat 500 have around 85kg of engine and transmission. They
carry 35 kg of fuel. Electric cars have more than double that weight of
battery. The Fiat manages around 70mpg, giving it a 540 mile maximum range.


The Nissan Leaf is inferior in every respect.

The Nissan costs £24k, the Fiat is about half that price.

You'd have to be an utter ****head to buy the Leaf.

I drove a Fiat 500 Twin Air over the Apennines last year. It was OK, coped
with the hills really well. Then again it wasn't lugging around batteries
weighing as much as three fat yanks.

It also got me to my destination. An electric car wouldn't have managed the
distance.

--
€¢DarWin|
_/ _/

On Sat, 10 Aug 2013 19:34:47 +0100, harryagain wrote:

My destinations are usually at least a couple of days' motorway
travel
away. Whether or not I use the car once there will depend upon the

destination. Places like Vienna or Berlin are best seen on foot or

using public transport. The Black Forest is somewhere to tour
around.

You spend your holidays driving????
Boring.

A lot less boring than spending a week on a sun lounger turning into
a lobster.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Sat, 10 Aug 2013 07:50:39 +0100, ARW wrote:

Try doing that journey and stopping only once with a woman in the car.
They are programmed to need a **** every 100 miles

That far, cor... 30 miles seems to be the limit around here. Even if
the last thing they do before walking to the car and getting in is
take a ****.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 10/08/2013 20:02, polygonum wrote:
That would tend to make the battery-carrying impact even more on the
stop-start/short range electric car than the fuel weight on long journeys.

In the stop-start scenario they can (and do!) use regenerative braking -
recharge the battery with the motors instead of throwing the energy
away. That's what they are really good at - that and not having a
tickover burning fuel even when sitting still.

But back a step - the weight difference between full and empty on my car
is perhaps 50Kg. Out of 1500. So ~3%. I don't notice it.

Andy

On 10/08/2013 20:39, Steve Firth wrote:

Cars like the Fiat 500 have around 85kg of engine and transmission. They
carry 35 kg of fuel. Electric cars have more than double that weight of
battery. The Fiat manages around 70mpg, giving it a 540 mile maximum range.

snip
I drove a Fiat 500 Twin Air over the Apennines last year.

Bet you didn't get 70MPG up there

snip more

It also got me to my destination. An electric car wouldn't have managed the
distance.

That's not news

Andy

Dave Liquorice wrote on Aug 10, 2013:

On Sat, 10 Aug 2013 19:34:47 +0100, harryagain wrote:

My destinations are usually at least a couple of days' motorway
travel
away. Whether or not I use the car once there will depend upon the

destination. Places like Vienna or Berlin are best seen on foot or

using public transport. The Black Forest is somewhere to tour
around.

You spend your holidays driving????
Boring.

A lot less boring than spending a week on a sun lounger turning into
a lobster.

Absolutely! I really like driving abroad and I'm always slightly disappointed
when we reach our destination - usually Croatia these days. We take a week
to get there and the same to get back.


--
Mike Lane
UK North Yorkshire
mike_lane at mac dot com

In article ,
Vir Campestris wrote:
On 10/08/2013 20:02, polygonum wrote:
That would tend to make the battery-carrying impact even more on the
stop-start/short range electric car than the fuel weight on long
journeys.

In the stop-start scenario they can (and do!) use regenerative braking -
recharge the battery with the motors instead of throwing the energy
away. That's what they are really good at - that and not having a
tickover burning fuel even when sitting still.

and my Mazda 6 diesel does both those things. It uses the regenerated
energy to power the starter.

But back a step - the weight difference between full and empty on my car
is perhaps 50Kg. Out of 1500. So ~3%. I don't notice it.

Andy

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

On 10/08/13 19:58, harryagain wrote:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 10/08/13 11:26, polygonum wrote:
On 10/08/2013 11:20, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Says a lot of modern society if they'd fail to get to work or school
because their car won't go.
If it is just a few vehicles that are taken out, then alternatives are
often feasible - at the level of public transport, asking a friend, etc.
But if you take a large town with a large proportion of electric
vehicles, then that is much less likely to work. Our infrastructure is
such that walking or cycling is often not viable.

It never really was.
Towns exist because we have motorised transport.
********, there were towns long before we had any mechanical transport.
when do you ever read what people write before spouting such utter ********.

Ships existed before diesel engines too, or bunker old fired steam
turbines,but modern ships and their carrying capacity could not exist
without bunker oil or diesel,.

Towns were started for commerce and protection.
Utterly irrelevant.


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

On 10/08/13 14:39, charles wrote:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 10/08/13 12:40, Nightjar wrote:
On 10/08/2013 11:28, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Nightjar wrote:
On 09/08/2013 23:20, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Nightjar wrote:
I doubt many people actually need a 600 mile range. Few would
drive that
distance without stopping - especially in the UK.

I bought the long range tank for my car specifically to give me a
better range than that for when I go touring in Europe. I won't do it
non-stop, but I also don't have to buy fuel at motorway prices.
Where do you stop for the night? Not on a motorway, surely? So buy
your fuel there?
Precisely. With a 600+ mile range I can fill up at whatever town or
city
I stop in for the night.
Which means you are using only motorways when touring abroad?
My destinations are usually at least a couple of days' motorway travel
away. Whether or not I use the car once there will depend upon the
destination. Places like Vienna or Berlin are best seen on foot or
using public transport. The Black Forest is somewhere to tour around.

Colin Bignell
Germany and Italy are less than a days drive.
from where?

East Anglia.

Done both in less that 12 hours inc ferry. done Copenhagen in under 24
hours (just).


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

On 10/08/13 15:36, Nightjar wrote:
On 10/08/2013 14:23, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 10/08/13 12:40, Nightjar wrote:
On 10/08/2013 11:28, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Nightjar wrote:
On 09/08/2013 23:20, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Nightjar wrote:
I doubt many people actually need a 600 mile range. Few would
drive that
distance without stopping - especially in the UK.


I bought the long range tank for my car specifically to give me a
better range than that for when I go touring in Europe. I won't
do it
non-stop, but I also don't have to buy fuel at motorway prices.

Where do you stop for the night? Not on a motorway, surely? So buy
your fuel there?

Precisely. With a 600+ mile range I can fill up at whatever town or
city
I stop in for the night.

Which means you are using only motorways when touring abroad?

My destinations are usually at least a couple of days' motorway travel
away. Whether or not I use the car once there will depend upon the
destination. Places like Vienna or Berlin are best seen on foot or
using public transport. The Black Forest is somewhere to tour around.

Colin Bignell
Germany and Italy are less than a days drive.


That depends upon how many hours you want to spend on the road and
whether you keep to speed limits.

er not really. I clocked Tuscany to where I live. 600 miles.

12 hours max at 50mph average.


Colin Bignell


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Towns exist because we have motorised transport.
********, there were towns long before we had any mechanical transport.
when do you ever read what people write before spouting such utter
********.

Ships existed before diesel engines too, or bunker old fired steam
turbines,but modern ships and their carrying capacity could not exist
without bunker oil or diesel,.

Towns were started for commerce and protection.
Utterly irrelevant.

I don't think you can get away from the fact that towns existed before
there was motorised transport. Danum, Camulodunum, and Londinium spring
to mind.

Bill

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
...
"harryagain" wrote:
"Steve Firth" wrote in message
...
Nightjar wrote:
On 09/08/2013 19:40, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
As your pricing example points out, EV's are *nearly* there, and the
Renault pricing deal will be enough to bring-in more early adopters.

Not with a ****y 130 mile range they aren't; I get a 600 mile range
with
a dizzle C4.


I doubt many people actually need a 600 mile range. Few would drive
that
distance without stopping - especially in the UK.


I bought the long range tank for my car specifically to give me a
better
range than that for when I go touring in Europe. I won't do it
non-stop,
but I also don't have to buy fuel at motorway prices.

Also on those sorts of drives fuel stops are a significant drag
consuming
as much as a half hour every few hundred miles. With a long range tank
it's
possible to get much further with less stress. And of course there's
"fill
up in Luxembourg" syndrome. A fill there with a large tank can save
"quite
a bit" of money.


But it costs a lot (of fuel) to haul that weight of fuel around.

Yes harry, having to lug around 80kg of fuel is a real burden when
compared
to having to lug around 300-600kg of batteries in order to have half the
range (at best) of a petrol car.

But then the electric motor is very light.
Overall wieght difference is not that great.

"polygonum" wrote in message
...
On 10/08/2013 19:52, Steve Firth wrote:
"harryagain" wrote:
"Steve Firth" wrote in message
...
Nightjar wrote:
On 09/08/2013 19:40, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
As your pricing example points out, EV's are *nearly* there, and
the
Renault pricing deal will be enough to bring-in more early
adopters.

Not with a ****y 130 mile range they aren't; I get a 600 mile range
with
a dizzle C4.


I doubt many people actually need a 600 mile range. Few would drive
that
distance without stopping - especially in the UK.


I bought the long range tank for my car specifically to give me a
better
range than that for when I go touring in Europe. I won't do it
non-stop,
but I also don't have to buy fuel at motorway prices.

Also on those sorts of drives fuel stops are a significant drag
consuming
as much as a half hour every few hundred miles. With a long range tank
it's
possible to get much further with less stress. And of course there's
"fill
up in Luxembourg" syndrome. A fill there with a large tank can save
"quite
a bit" of money.


But it costs a lot (of fuel) to haul that weight of fuel around.

Yes harry, having to lug around 80kg of fuel is a real burden when
compared
to having to lug around 300-600kg of batteries in order to have half the
range (at best) of a petrol car.

I've always thought that extra weight is a significant penalty when
climbing hills and when accelerating, but relatively little penalty when
travelling at a more or less constant speed on a moderately flat motorway.

That would tend to make the battery-carrying impact even more on the
stop-start/short range electric car than the fuel weight on long journeys.

But kinetic energy is retrieved through regeneration.
And the "equivalent" mpg of my car is 187.
On an energy for energy basis.

"charles" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Vir Campestris wrote:
On 10/08/2013 20:02, polygonum wrote:
That would tend to make the battery-carrying impact even more on the
stop-start/short range electric car than the fuel weight on long
journeys.

In the stop-start scenario they can (and do!) use regenerative braking -
recharge the battery with the motors instead of throwing the energy
away. That's what they are really good at - that and not having a
tickover burning fuel even when sitting still.

and my Mazda 6 diesel does both those things. It uses the regenerated
energy to power the starter.

For all of five seconds.

"Tim Streater" wrote in message
...
In article

rg,
Steve Firth wrote:

"harryagain" wrote:
"Steve Firth" wrote in message

rg...
Nightjar wrote:
On 09/08/2013 19:40, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
As your pricing example points out, EV's are *nearly* there, and
the
Renault pricing deal will be enough to bring-in more early
adopters.

Not with a ****y 130 mile range they aren't; I get a 600 mile range
with
a dizzle C4.

I doubt many people actually need a 600 mile range. Few would drive
that
distance without stopping - especially in the UK.

I bought the long range tank for my car specifically to give me a
better
range than that for when I go touring in Europe. I won't do it
non-stop,
but I also don't have to buy fuel at motorway prices.

Also on those sorts of drives fuel stops are a significant drag
consuming
as much as a half hour every few hundred miles. With a long range tank
it's
possible to get much further with less stress. And of course there's
"fill
up in Luxembourg" syndrome. A fill there with a large tank can save
"quite
a bit" of money.

But it costs a lot (of fuel) to haul that weight of fuel around.

Yes harry, having to lug around 80kg of fuel is a real burden when
compared
to having to lug around 300-600kg of batteries in order to have half the
range (at best) of a petrol car.

It's all about energy density you see harry. I know that's a bit hard for
you to understand, but there it is.


No it's not.
There's energy recovery to consider.
I get energy back whilst descending a hill or slowing down.

There's efficiency of use.
The electric motor is around 85% efficient

1 Kwh of energy takes me around five miles.
Around one fifth of a petrol/diesel car.

It's the overall weight of the car that counts.

"Nightjar" wrote in message
...
On 10/08/2013 19:34, harryagain wrote:

"Nightjar" wrote in message
...
On 10/08/2013 11:28, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Nightjar wrote:
On 09/08/2013 23:20, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Nightjar wrote:
I doubt many people actually need a 600 mile range. Few would drive
that
distance without stopping - especially in the UK.


I bought the long range tank for my car specifically to give me a
better range than that for when I go touring in Europe. I won't do
it
non-stop, but I also don't have to buy fuel at motorway prices.

Where do you stop for the night? Not on a motorway, surely? So buy
your fuel there?

Precisely. With a 600+ mile range I can fill up at whatever town or
city
I stop in for the night.

Which means you are using only motorways when touring abroad?

My destinations are usually at least a couple of days' motorway travel
away. Whether or not I use the car once there will depend upon the
destination. Places like Vienna or Berlin are best seen on foot or using
public transport. The Black Forest is somewhere to tour around.


You spend your holidays driving????

More usually a couple of days or so at each end than the whole holiday.

Boring.

That rather depends upon where you are driving and what you see when you
do.

Well you should be concentrating on your driving, not "seeing".
I'd sooner get on a bus/taxi if it was that interesting.
Or a plane if it wasn't.

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
ll.co.uk...
On Sat, 10 Aug 2013 19:34:47 +0100, harryagain wrote:

My destinations are usually at least a couple of days' motorway
travel
away. Whether or not I use the car once there will depend upon the

destination. Places like Vienna or Berlin are best seen on foot or

using public transport. The Black Forest is somewhere to tour
around.

You spend your holidays driving????
Boring.

A lot less boring than spending a week on a sun lounger turning into
a lobster.

Quite right.
I get bored on a beach after twenty minutes or so.

"Mike Lane" wrote in message
dia.com...
Dave Liquorice wrote on Aug 10, 2013:

On Sat, 10 Aug 2013 19:34:47 +0100, harryagain wrote:

My destinations are usually at least a couple of days' motorway
travel
away. Whether or not I use the car once there will depend upon the

destination. Places like Vienna or Berlin are best seen on foot or

using public transport. The Black Forest is somewhere to tour
around.

You spend your holidays driving????
Boring.

A lot less boring than spending a week on a sun lounger turning into
a lobster.

Absolutely! I really like driving abroad and I'm always slightly
disappointed
when we reach our destination - usually Croatia these days. We take a
week
to get there and the same to get back.

A teenage phase.
I got fed up with driving and took up flying.
The question is, what next?

"polygonum" wrote in message
...
On 10/08/2013 19:46, harryagain wrote:
"Nightjar" wrote in message
...
On 10/08/2013 09:19, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 09/08/13 16:59, Tim Streater wrote:
In article ,
" wrote:

As your pricing example points out, EV's are *nearly* there, and the
Renault pricing deal will be enough to bring-in more early adopters.

Not with a ****y 130 mile range they aren't; I get a 600 mile range
with
a dizzle C4.

the lithium air technology could get to around the same if and when it
becomes a reliable safe, cheap practical commercial solution.

An awful lot of ifs though.

If fossil fuels do price themselves out of the market, you might be
interested to ponder how things will pan out...

I like this idea:

http://www.gereports.com/thorium-las...-nuclear-cars/


What aload of bollix.
(Man invents atom bomb in garage syndrome.)
Up there with cold fusion.
You can tell he's mad by the picture offered of a weird looking car.
The optimum shape for a car has long ago been arrived at.


The picture was a car produced by General Motors and shown at the Chicago
Motor Show 2009 - not some mad person in a garage.


So why's it so weird looking? To distract from bollix idea?
They went bust didn't they?
And even when functioning, not renouned for high tech automotive
engineering.

Here's another of their offerings if you want a good laugh.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General...d#Firebird_III

"Nightjar" wrote in message
...
On 10/08/2013 19:46, harryagain wrote:
"Nightjar" wrote in message
...
On 10/08/2013 09:19, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 09/08/13 16:59, Tim Streater wrote:
In article ,
" wrote:

As your pricing example points out, EV's are *nearly* there, and the
Renault pricing deal will be enough to bring-in more early adopters.

Not with a ****y 130 mile range they aren't; I get a 600 mile range
with
a dizzle C4.

the lithium air technology could get to around the same if and when it
becomes a reliable safe, cheap practical commercial solution.

An awful lot of ifs though.

If fossil fuels do price themselves out of the market, you might be
interested to ponder how things will pan out...

I like this idea:

http://www.gereports.com/thorium-las...-nuclear-cars/


What aload of bollix.
(Man invents atom bomb in garage syndrome.)
Up there with cold fusion.
You can tell he's mad by the picture offered of a weird looking car.

You missed the bit about that being a Cadillac concept car and nothing to
do with Charles Stevens?

The optimum shape for a car has long ago been arrived at.

Concept cars are usually strange looking. In practice, if anybody produces
a thorium powered car, it will probably only be the badge that gives it
away.

If it is a practical system, I would expect it to appear in military
vehicles first. The military have large budgets and having vehicles with
unlimited range would be a tremendous tactical advantage.

Heh heh.
I hope the purchase price includes the cost of disposal.
(If practical)

"Bill Wright" wrote in message
...
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

That could cause chaos if there were a major overnight power cut in an
area with high electric car usage. Lots of people failing to get to
work, school, etc.

Says a lot of modern society if they'd fail to get to work or school
because their car won't go.

But that's how things are nowadays.

The kids couldn't get to school if it was more than 1/4 km away!
Shopping couldn't be done if the shop was more than 25m away!

harryagain wrote:
"Mike Lane" wrote in message
dia.com...

Absolutely! I really like driving abroad and I'm always slightly
disappointed
when we reach our destination - usually Croatia these days. We take a
week
to get there and the same to get back.

A teenage phase.
I got fed up with driving and took up flying.

Thus totally negating any greenhouse gas reductions your lifestyle
makes. Each flight within Europe generates about half a tonne of CO2
*per passenger*.

Hypocrite. Goiung by train generates about 10% of the CO2 of flying.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

On 09/08/2013 15:25, Steve Firth wrote:
Renault are starting to really push their Zoe electric car. It's an amusing
price, but massively subsidised by European governments (ie by you, me and
every other taxpayer).

Renault advertise it as 130 mile range but in the small print is detail
that the real world range is closer to 60 miles. But the interesting detail
is that you have to rent the battery. That will cost the driver £80 a month
for 7500 miles a year.

So that's 13p/mile just for the battery.
And my wife's boring old petrol car costs.... 13p/mile in petrol.

I'm struggling to see what makes the electric car a good idea.

Avoiding the congestion charge in central London?

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

In article ,
harryagain wrote:

"charles" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Vir Campestris wrote:
On 10/08/2013 20:02, polygonum wrote:
That would tend to make the battery-carrying impact even more on the
stop-start/short range electric car than the fuel weight on long
journeys.

In the stop-start scenario they can (and do!) use regenerative braking -
recharge the battery with the motors instead of throwing the energy
away. That's what they are really good at - that and not having a
tickover burning fuel even when sitting still.

and my Mazda 6 diesel does both those things. It uses the regenerated
energy to power the starter.

For all of five seconds.

so? if it only takes 5 seconds to stat the car, why would you need it to
work longer? But in heavy traffic the restart is needed quite frequently.

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

"harryagain" wrote:
"Steve Firth" wrote in message
...
"harryagain" wrote:
"Steve Firth" wrote in message
...
Nightjar wrote:
On 09/08/2013 19:40, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
As your pricing example points out, EV's are *nearly* there, and the
Renault pricing deal will be enough to bring-in more early adopters.

Not with a ****y 130 mile range they aren't; I get a 600 mile range
with
a dizzle C4.


I doubt many people actually need a 600 mile range. Few would drive
that
distance without stopping - especially in the UK.


I bought the long range tank for my car specifically to give me a
better
range than that for when I go touring in Europe. I won't do it
non-stop,
but I also don't have to buy fuel at motorway prices.

Also on those sorts of drives fuel stops are a significant drag
consuming
as much as a half hour every few hundred miles. With a long range tank
it's
possible to get much further with less stress. And of course there's
"fill
up in Luxembourg" syndrome. A fill there with a large tank can save
"quite
a bit" of money.


But it costs a lot (of fuel) to haul that weight of fuel around.

Yes harry, having to lug around 80kg of fuel is a real burden when
compared
to having to lug around 300-600kg of batteries in order to have half the
range (at best) of a petrol car.

But then the electric motor is very light.
Overall wieght difference is not that great.

You're telling lies again harry.

Nissan Leaf 1500 kg kerb weight
Fiat 500 Twin Air 900 kg kerb weight.

Lotus Elise 725 kg kerb weight
Tesla Roadster 1235kg kerb weight


--
€¢DarWin|
_/ _/

On 11/08/13 03:26, Bill Wright wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Towns exist because we have motorised transport.
********, there were towns long before we had any mechanical transport.
when do you ever read what people write before spouting such utter
********.

Ships existed before diesel engines too, or bunker old fired steam
turbines,but modern ships and their carrying capacity could not exist
without bunker oil or diesel,.

Towns were started for commerce and protection.
Utterly irrelevant.

I don't think you can get away from the fact that towns existed before
there was motorised transport. Danum, Camulodunum, and Londinium
spring to mind.

I am not trying to. IO am merely saying that existing to9wns would
collapse without motorised trapsottr.

Sheesh. Can peoiple not read?

Bill


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

On 10/08/2013 19:52, Steve Firth wrote:
"harryagain" wrote:
"Steve Firth" wrote in message
...
Nightjar wrote:
On 09/08/2013 19:40, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
As your pricing example points out, EV's are *nearly* there, and the
Renault pricing deal will be enough to bring-in more early adopters.

Not with a ****y 130 mile range they aren't; I get a 600 mile range
with
a dizzle C4.


I doubt many people actually need a 600 mile range. Few would drive that
distance without stopping - especially in the UK.


I bought the long range tank for my car specifically to give me a better
range than that for when I go touring in Europe. I won't do it non-stop,
but I also don't have to buy fuel at motorway prices.

Also on those sorts of drives fuel stops are a significant drag consuming
as much as a half hour every few hundred miles. With a long range tank
it's
possible to get much further with less stress. And of course there's "fill
up in Luxembourg" syndrome. A fill there with a large tank can save "quite
a bit" of money.


But it costs a lot (of fuel) to haul that weight of fuel around.

Yes harry, having to lug around 80kg of fuel is a real burden when compared
to having to lug around 300-600kg of batteries in order to have half the
range (at best) of a petrol car.

You haven't thought this through Steve. Because the electricity used to
charge the batteries is free, they don't weigh anything.....

--
Dave - The Medway Handyman www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

On 11/08/2013 01:36, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 10/08/13 15:36, Nightjar wrote:
On 10/08/2013 14:23, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 10/08/13 12:40, Nightjar wrote:
On 10/08/2013 11:28, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Nightjar wrote:
On 09/08/2013 23:20, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Nightjar wrote:
I doubt many people actually need a 600 mile range. Few would
drive that
distance without stopping - especially in the UK.


I bought the long range tank for my car specifically to give me a
better range than that for when I go touring in Europe. I won't
do it
non-stop, but I also don't have to buy fuel at motorway prices.

Where do you stop for the night? Not on a motorway, surely? So buy
your fuel there?

Precisely. With a 600+ mile range I can fill up at whatever town or
city
I stop in for the night.

Which means you are using only motorways when touring abroad?

My destinations are usually at least a couple of days' motorway travel
away. Whether or not I use the car once there will depend upon the
destination. Places like Vienna or Berlin are best seen on foot or
using public transport. The Black Forest is somewhere to tour around.

Colin Bignell
Germany and Italy are less than a days drive.


That depends upon how many hours you want to spend on the road and
whether you keep to speed limits.

er not really. I clocked Tuscany to where I live. 600 miles.

12 hours max at 50mph average.

Far longer than I would choose to drive in one day and no allowance for
breaks. Even when I was young, my maximum was 3 x 3 hour driving
sessions with at least a 30 minute break between each.

I generally reckon that Liege or Troyes are where I will stop for the
first night and anything further is going to need a second day's driving.

Colin Bignell

On 11/08/2013 07:20, harryagain wrote:
"Nightjar" wrote in message
...
On 10/08/2013 19:46, harryagain wrote:
"Nightjar" wrote in message
...
On 10/08/2013 09:19, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 09/08/13 16:59, Tim Streater wrote:
In article ,
" wrote:

As your pricing example points out, EV's are *nearly* there, and the
Renault pricing deal will be enough to bring-in more early adopters.

Not with a ****y 130 mile range they aren't; I get a 600 mile range
with
a dizzle C4.

the lithium air technology could get to around the same if and when it
becomes a reliable safe, cheap practical commercial solution.

An awful lot of ifs though.

If fossil fuels do price themselves out of the market, you might be
interested to ponder how things will pan out...

I like this idea:

http://www.gereports.com/thorium-las...-nuclear-cars/


What aload of bollix.
(Man invents atom bomb in garage syndrome.)
Up there with cold fusion.
You can tell he's mad by the picture offered of a weird looking car.

You missed the bit about that being a Cadillac concept car and nothing to
do with Charles Stevens?

The optimum shape for a car has long ago been arrived at.

Concept cars are usually strange looking. In practice, if anybody produces
a thorium powered car, it will probably only be the badge that gives it
away.

If it is a practical system, I would expect it to appear in military
vehicles first. The military have large budgets and having vehicles with
unlimited range would be a tremendous tactical advantage.

Heh heh.
I hope the purchase price includes the cost of disposal.
(If practical)

Thorium is an alpha emitter. You could wrap it in thick plastic for safe
disposal.

Colin Bignell

On 11/08/2013 06:59, harryagain wrote:
"Nightjar" wrote in message
...
On 10/08/2013 19:34, harryagain wrote:

"Nightjar" wrote in message
...
On 10/08/2013 11:28, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Nightjar wrote:
On 09/08/2013 23:20, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Nightjar wrote:
I doubt many people actually need a 600 mile range. Few would drive
that
distance without stopping - especially in the UK.


I bought the long range tank for my car specifically to give me a
better range than that for when I go touring in Europe. I won't do
it
non-stop, but I also don't have to buy fuel at motorway prices.

Where do you stop for the night? Not on a motorway, surely? So buy
your fuel there?

Precisely. With a 600+ mile range I can fill up at whatever town or
city
I stop in for the night.

Which means you are using only motorways when touring abroad?

My destinations are usually at least a couple of days' motorway travel
away. Whether or not I use the car once there will depend upon the
destination. Places like Vienna or Berlin are best seen on foot or using
public transport. The Black Forest is somewhere to tour around.


You spend your holidays driving????

More usually a couple of days or so at each end than the whole holiday.

Boring.

That rather depends upon where you are driving and what you see when you
do.

Well you should be concentrating on your driving, not "seeing".

Concentrating on driving requires that you are aware of all of your
surroundings. However, on holiday seeing usually involves parking
somewhere interesting and walking around.

I'd sooner get on a bus/taxi if it was that interesting.

Not many buses went where I did last holiday and the car is a lot
cheaper than taxis.

Or a plane if it wasn't.

I've given up flying if it is possible to drive there instead. It was
different when I could fly myself, but airports are simply too much
hassle these days.

Colin Bignell

On 10/08/2013 23:55, charles wrote:

and my Mazda 6 diesel does both those things. It uses the regenerated
energy to power the starter.

It's not alone - but not to the same extent. Your starter doesn't need
10s of kilowatts for several seconds every time you slow down, which is
what regenerative braking can provide. An electric car can, and must,
make use of this energy.

Their problem is on a motorway when you don't brake.

Andy

On 10/08/2013 07:50, ARW wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
charles wrote:
I doubt many people actually need a 600 mile range. Few would drive
that distance without stopping - especially in the UK.


without stopping no, but I reglarly drive to Central Scotland ina
day - that's around 430 miles.

I do Aberdeen from London. Some 540 miles using M40 M6. My car will -
just about do it on one tank. However, since I stop for a meal on the
way it's no big deal to fill up.

Try doing that journey and stopping only once with a woman in the car. They
are programmed to need a **** every 100 miles

My wife is very good in that respect, four and a half-hour journeys are
no problem. However when she was pregnant journeys consisted of stopping
at each and every motorway services!

SteveW

On 10/08/2013 00:38, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
charles wrote:
It only takes a few minutes to fill a diesel Mondeo. Last time I
tried. Or am I missing something?

Yes, the original topic was about electric cars and they will take a lot
more than "a few minutes" to refuel.

Well yes, but I was commenting on a 600 mile range of a conventional car.
Saying I'm not really sure just how necessary that is.

Of course no electric car has anything like the range needed for long
distance travel - even in the UK. I doubt there's one on the market that
could run for a morning at motorway speeds. Although you might think so by
the ads.

Some years ago I drove from Manchester to Portsmouth while towing;
crossed to Caen and set off towards St. Malo (we couldn't get on the
direct crossing). I'd deliberately not filled up again in the UK, as
French diesel was a lot cheaper then. After a while I decided to fill
up, only to find station after station shut. Luckily, by coming off the
main roads and searching nearby towns, I managed to find a small garage
run by a Muslim guy who'd decided to stay open. This was in the days
when most French garages switched to unmanned, automated payment on bank
holidays, but, as I found, could not accept non-French chipped cards. I
was damned glad of the decent range of my car that day!

SteveW

Vir Campestris wrote:

It's not alone - but not to the same extent. Your starter doesn't need
10s of kilowatts for several seconds every time you slow down, which is
what regenerative braking can provide. An electric car can, and must,
make use of this energy.

Their problem is on a motorway when you don't brake.

Well just keep accelerating then braking! Simples!

Bill

Nightjar wrote:

er not really. I clocked Tuscany to where I live. 600 miles.

12 hours max at 50mph average.

Far longer than I would choose to drive in one day and no allowance for
breaks. Even when I was young, my maximum was 3 x 3 hour driving
sessions with at least a 30 minute break between each.

There's this ridiculous macho thing about driving on and on all day
long. It's daft.

Bill

On 09/08/2013 23:31, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
I doubt many people actually need a 600 mile range. Few would drive
that distance without stopping - especially in the UK.

It means I fill up about once a month.

Do you live a very long way from a filling station? If not, why carry all
that fuel around for no reason?

In my case, I run full to empty and re-fill. Partial refilling, usually
means that I have to divert off route and fill up on the way to work or
leave earlier on the way home. Okay it's only 12 minutes or so, but I'm
a contractor and arriving 12 minutes later matters at £40 an hour! It's
certainly a hefty price increase on each partial fill.

SteveW

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Towns were started for commerce and protection.
Utterly irrelevant.

I don't think you can get away from the fact that towns existed before
there was motorised transport. Danum, Camulodunum, and Londinium
spring to mind.

I am not trying to. IO am merely saying that existing to9wns would
collapse without motorised trapsottr.

Sheesh. Can peoiple not read?

Sheesh. Can peoiple not toyp? Incidentally trapsottr is Icelandic for
toilet seat.

Bill

In article ,
John Williamson wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
The government would collapse from tax starvation take if E-cars
ever took off.

There will be road pricing long before that. Where you pay so much a
mile travelled.

We already have road pricing of a sort. The further you drive, and the
less efficient your car is, the more tax you pay on the fuel you use.

Well yes. But it's impossible to tax electricity specifically for road
use. It can't be 'marked' in the same way as heating oil etc is to
differentiate that from road fuel.

The only benefit from most of the proposals I've seen for road pricing
would be a reduction in use of busy roads at peak times, which might
save some road building.

--
*CAN AN ATHEIST GET INSURANCE AGAINST ACTS OF GOD?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 10/08/2013 19:42, harryagain wrote:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 09/08/13 16:59, Tim Streater wrote:
In article ,
" wrote:

As your pricing example points out, EV's are *nearly* there, and the
Renault pricing deal will be enough to bring-in more early adopters.

Not with a ****y 130 mile range they aren't; I get a 600 mile range with
a dizzle C4.

the lithium air technology could get to around the same if and when it
becomes a reliable safe, cheap practical commercial solution.

An awful lot of ifs though.

If fossil fuels do price themselves out of the market, you might be
interested to ponder how things will pan out.


People will travel by train.

An interesting concept. Would you explain how my wife could visit her
patients in the community by train (or are you going to employ twice as
many nurses to allow for additional waiting and bus/walking time from
house to house?) Or how I can get to work (generally not on a train
route and before the first trains of the day run locally) with a
workplace that moves from place to place so I cannot opt to live locally
- also considering that industries need flexible workforces to survive
the ups and downs of the market while competing against foreign
competition?

SteveW

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Towns exist because we have motorised transport.

So there were no towns before the motor car? You learn something new every
day...

--
*What boots up must come down *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.