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Drove an electric car today.
Uncanny experience but good.
http://www.mitsubishi-cars.co.uk/imiev/technology.aspx


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On 07/09/12 18:40, harryagain wrote:
Drove an electric car today.
Uncanny experience but good.
http://www.mitsubishi-cars.co.uk/imiev/technology.aspx



.... and the batteries last how long and cost what to replace?

Andy C
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On Fri, 7 Sep 2012 18:40:59 +0100, "harryagain"
wrote:

Drove an electric car today.


Twice?
Recharged it, did you?
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In article , Andy Cap
scribeth thus
On 07/09/12 18:40, harryagain wrote:
Drove an electric car today.
Uncanny experience but good.
http://www.mitsubishi-cars.co.uk/imiev/technology.aspx



... and the batteries last how long and cost what to replace?

Andy C


Well it sez a 93 mile range which I suppose would suit me a lot of the
time but anything else its just that if I say decide or have to go to
London then I must know were there is a charging point or for any other
long journey.

Its a nice idea especially the transmission but until we get that ideal
liquid powered fuel pack it'll have it wait.

Just also thinking here it'd be fine for home charging but there are a
lot of places where when you park it on the street even tho your home is
nearby, still no charging at home for you and then you'd need to rely on
charging elsewhere if you can find a point and don't mind waiting..

Problem is there still not practical for most drivers....

--
Tony Sayer

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On 07/09/2012 18:40, harryagain wrote:
Drove an electric car today.
Uncanny experience but good.
http://www.mitsubishi-cars.co.uk/imiev/technology.aspx


seems to have affected your memory!


--
Cheers,

John.

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On Fri, 7 Sep 2012 21:30:56 +0100, tony sayer wrote:

Well it sez a 93 mile range which I suppose would suit me a lot of the
time ...


My round trip working tommorow will be 110 miles. Monday's is around
240.

...if I say decide or have to go to London then I must know were there
is a charging point ...


I'd need to know where there are 4 if not 5 fast charging points along
the route, on the basis that the fast charge only gets to 80% in 30 mins..

Problem is there still not practical for most drivers....


Yep, barely enough range to do the weekly shop.

I can think of several cars I'd much rather have for the £28 grand they
want for that.

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tony sayer wrote:
In article , Andy Cap
scribeth thus
On 07/09/12 18:40, harryagain wrote:
Drove an electric car today.
Uncanny experience but good.
http://www.mitsubishi-cars.co.uk/imiev/technology.aspx


... and the batteries last how long and cost what to replace?

Andy C


Well it sez a 93 mile range which I suppose would suit me a lot of the
time but anything else its just that if I say decide or have to go to
London then I must know were there is a charging point or for any other
long journey.

Its a nice idea especially the transmission but until we get that ideal
liquid powered fuel pack it'll have it wait.

Just also thinking here it'd be fine for home charging but there are a
lot of places where when you park it on the street even tho your home is
nearby, still no charging at home for you and then you'd need to rely on
charging elsewhere if you can find a point and don't mind waiting..

Problem is there still not practical for most drivers....

Not as a first car, not as a cheap second car either.


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.
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In article ,
tony sayer wrote:
ell it sez a 93 mile range which I suppose would suit me a lot of the
time but anything else its just that if I say decide or have to go to
London then I must know were there is a charging point or for any other
long journey.


The quoted range and performance of electric cars appear to be quoted as
if from different vehicles. It may well have a calculated range of 93
miles - but not under normal UK traffic conditions.

--
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harryagain wrote:

Drove an electric car today.


How many yards would it get on the average daily output of your solar
panels?

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I think battery life in this case meant when do they start to lose their
range and or generally deteriorate so they need replacing.

Brian

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graphics are great, but the blind can't hear them
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"tony sayer" wrote in message
...
In article , Andy Cap
scribeth thus
On 07/09/12 18:40, harryagain wrote:
Drove an electric car today.
Uncanny experience but good.
http://www.mitsubishi-cars.co.uk/imiev/technology.aspx



... and the batteries last how long and cost what to replace?

Andy C


Well it sez a 93 mile range which I suppose would suit me a lot of the
time but anything else its just that if I say decide or have to go to
London then I must know were there is a charging point or for any other
long journey.

Its a nice idea especially the transmission but until we get that ideal
liquid powered fuel pack it'll have it wait.

Just also thinking here it'd be fine for home charging but there are a
lot of places where when you park it on the street even tho your home is
nearby, still no charging at home for you and then you'd need to rely on
charging elsewhere if you can find a point and don't mind waiting..

Problem is there still not practical for most drivers....

--
Tony Sayer





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On 08/09/12 05:29, Brian Gaff wrote:
I think battery life in this case meant when do they start to lose their
range and or generally deteriorate so they need replacing.

Brian


Yes, that was what I meant. I guess servicing would be quite a bit less,
so it would be difficult to get a fair comparison. If it's anything like
boilers though, where price, reduced life and higher maintenance costs
negate any savings, it's just another con job.

Andy C
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On Sep 7, 6:45*pm, Andy Cap wrote:
On 07/09/12 18:40, harryagain wrote:

Drove an electric car today.
Uncanny experience but good.
http://www.mitsubishi-cars.co.uk/imiev/technology.aspx


... and the batteries last how long and cost what to replace?

Andy C



Range is 83 miles. Batteries guaranteed for 5-10 years (Dependingon
how you treat them.). Replacement cost around £4,000
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On Sep 8, 2:56*am, Andy Burns wrote:
harryagain wrote:
Drove an electric car today.


How many yards would it get on the average daily output of your solar
panels?


On a good (sunny) day I could recharge it in one day from "empty". The
battery is 16Kwh.

The annual PV production last year was 4000Kwh,

It uses average 135wh/Km.

You aren't good at arithmetic are you?
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On Sep 8, 5:29*am, "Brian Gaff" wrote:
I think battery life in this case meant when do they start to lose their
range and or generally deteriorate so they need replacing.

Brian

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"tony sayer" wrote in message

...



In article , Andy Cap
scribeth thus
On 07/09/12 18:40, harryagain wrote:
Drove an electric car today.
Uncanny experience but good.
http://www.mitsubishi-cars.co.uk/imiev/technology.aspx


... and the batteries last how long and cost what to replace?


Andy C


Well it sez a 93 mile range which I suppose would suit me a lot of the
time but anything else its just that if I say decide or have to go to
London then I must know were there is a charging point or for any other
long journey.


Its a nice idea especially *the transmission but until we get that ideal
liquid powered fuel pack it'll have it wait.


Just also thinking here it'd be fine for home charging but there are a
lot of places where when you park it on the street even tho your home is
nearby, still no charging at home for you and then you'd need to rely on
charging elsewhere if you can find a point and don't mind waiting..


Problem is there still not practical for most drivers....


--
Tony Sayer- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


Battery life depends on how you treat it.
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harry wrote:
On Sep 7, 6:45 pm, Andy Cap wrote:
On 07/09/12 18:40, harryagain wrote:

Drove an electric car today.
Uncanny experience but good.
http://www.mitsubishi-cars.co.uk/imiev/technology.aspx

... and the batteries last how long and cost what to replace?

Andy C



Range is 83 miles. Batteries guaranteed for 5-10 years (Dependingon
how you treat them.). Replacement cost around £4,000



And then harry also wrote:



On a good (sunny) day I could recharge it in one day from "empty". The
battery is 16Kwh.


The annual PV production last year was 4000Kwh,


It uses average 135wh/Km.


Which is ~74 miles, not 83 miles

And then harry said

You aren't good at arithmetic are you?


And I fell about laughing.


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.


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On Sep 8, 7:51*am, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
harry wrote:
On Sep 7, 6:45 pm, Andy Cap wrote:
On 07/09/12 18:40, harryagain wrote:


Drove an electric car today.
Uncanny experience but good.
http://www.mitsubishi-cars.co.uk/imiev/technology.aspx
... and the batteries last how long and cost what to replace?


Andy C


Range is 83 miles. Batteries guaranteed for 5-10 years (Dependingon
how you treat them.). Replacement cost around £4,000


And then harry also wrote:

*On a good (sunny) day I could recharge it in one day from "empty". The
*battery is 16Kwh.

*The annual PV production last year was 4000Kwh,

*It uses average 135wh/Km.

Which is ~74 miles, not 83 miles

And then harry said

*You aren't good at arithmetic are you?

And I fell about laughing.

--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc’-ra-cy) – a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.



Don't you know the meaning of average?
The figure is dependant on terrain, the way it is driven, AC on/off,
lights etc..
Try to keep up.
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In article
..com, harry scribeth thus
On Sep 7, 6:45*pm, Andy Cap wrote:
On 07/09/12 18:40, harryagain wrote:

Drove an electric car today.
Uncanny experience but good.
http://www.mitsubishi-cars.co.uk/imiev/technology.aspx


... and the batteries last how long and cost what to replace?

Andy C



Range is 83 miles. Batteries guaranteed for 5-10 years (Dependingon
how you treat them.). Replacement cost around £4,000


Well it does say range 93 miles, but how expensive is that to run
compared to petrol?..

It gives a consumption figure that looks like miles per watt hour which
doesn't seem right?..

Mind you if thats 28 K to buy then thats all rather academic..

--
Tony Sayer

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In article
,
harry wrote:
... and the batteries last how long and cost what to replace?

Andy C



Range is 83 miles. Batteries guaranteed for 5-10 years (Dependingon
how you treat them.). Replacement cost around £4,000


Treat them? Leave it in the garage on charge but never driven to get the
10 year warranty? And is the warranty free replacement or a proportional
cost according to age?

Tesla, for example, won't do a warranty replacement if the car is unused
and not on charge for a few weeks - like say left at an airport carpark
while on holiday.

--
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Dave Plowman London SW
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harry wrote:

Batteries guaranteed for 5-10 years (Depending on how you treat
them.)


So how do they phrase that?

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In article ,
AJH wrote:
On Fri, 7 Sep 2012 21:30:56 +0100, tony sayer
wrote:


Well it sez a 93 mile range


...but the american site reduces this to 62 on average


Yes - the US tends not to like outright lies in advertising.

Bit like the original Pious claiming 65 mpg as an average. When Autocar
tested it by driving it round a mixture of suburban London roads, they got
38 mpg. Worse than a diesel BMW of the same size which has much better
performance.

Toyota were forced to change this claim in the US - but not in the UK.

--
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Dave Plowman London SW
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harry wrote:
On Sep 8, 7:51 am, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
harry wrote:
On Sep 7, 6:45 pm, Andy Cap wrote:
On 07/09/12 18:40, harryagain wrote:
Drove an electric car today.
Uncanny experience but good.
http://www.mitsubishi-cars.co.uk/imiev/technology.aspx
... and the batteries last how long and cost what to replace?
Andy C
Range is 83 miles. Batteries guaranteed for 5-10 years (Dependingon
how you treat them.). Replacement cost around £4,000

And then harry also wrote:

On a good (sunny) day I could recharge it in one day from "empty". The
battery is 16Kwh.


The annual PV production last year was 4000Kwh,


It uses average 135wh/Km.


Which is ~74 miles, not 83 miles

And then harry said

You aren't good at arithmetic are you?


And I fell about laughing.

--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.



Don't you know the meaning of average?
The figure is dependant on terrain, the way it is driven, AC on/off,
lights etc..
Try to keep up.


A quick reverse ferret and double weasel!



--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.
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tony sayer wrote:
In article
.com, harry scribeth thus
On Sep 7, 6:45 pm, Andy Cap wrote:
On 07/09/12 18:40, harryagain wrote:

Drove an electric car today.
Uncanny experience but good.
http://www.mitsubishi-cars.co.uk/imiev/technology.aspx
... and the batteries last how long and cost what to replace?

Andy C


Range is 83 miles. Batteries guaranteed for 5-10 years (Dependingon
how you treat them.). Replacement cost around £4,000


Well it does say range 93 miles, but how expensive is that to run
compared to petrol?..

It gives a consumption figure that looks like miles per watt hour which
doesn't seem right?..

Mind you if thats 28 K to buy then thats all rather academic..

TCO is still very poor on electric.


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.
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AJH wrote:
On Sat, 8 Sep 2012 08:34:46 +0100, tony sayer
wrote:

It gives a consumption figure that looks like miles per watt hour which
doesn't seem right?..


Yes they seem to have that the wrong way around but 84Whr/mile is
impressive, given a litre of fuel has about 45kWhr/impgallon and
allowing about 30% thermal conversion to the wheels that would be in
the region of 300Whr/mile.
Mind you if thats 28 K to buy then thats all rather academic..


Especially as I haven't bought a new car since 1971, what does an
equivalent small car cost?

£8K upwards. And it won't need £4K worth of replacement batteries every
few years. And it will do over 200 miles without having to stop for the
night.

--
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In article ,
John Williamson wrote:
AJH wrote:
On Sat, 8 Sep 2012 08:34:46 +0100, tony sayer
wrote:

It gives a consumption figure that looks like miles per watt hour which
doesn't seem right?..


Yes they seem to have that the wrong way around but 84Whr/mile is
impressive, given a litre of fuel has about 45kWhr/impgallon and
allowing about 30% thermal conversion to the wheels that would be in
the region of 300Whr/mile.
Mind you if thats 28 K to buy then thats all rather academic..


Especially as I haven't bought a new car since 1971, what does an
equivalent small car cost?

£8K upwards. And it won't need £4K worth of replacement batteries every
few years. And it will do over 200 miles without having to stop for the
night.



Other thing is anyone who finds an electric car practical will by nature
do a lowish annual mileage. Which means the fuel cost may not be the
biggest part of overall new car ownership.

--
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Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
John Williamson wrote:
AJH wrote:
On Sat, 8 Sep 2012 08:34:46 +0100, tony sayer
wrote:

It gives a consumption figure that looks like miles per watt hour which
doesn't seem right?..
Yes they seem to have that the wrong way around but 84Whr/mile is
impressive, given a litre of fuel has about 45kWhr/impgallon and
allowing about 30% thermal conversion to the wheels that would be in
the region of 300Whr/mile.
Mind you if thats 28 K to buy then thats all rather academic..
Especially as I haven't bought a new car since 1971, what does an
equivalent small car cost?

£8K upwards. And it won't need £4K worth of replacement batteries every
few years. And it will do over 200 miles without having to stop for the
night.



Other thing is anyone who finds an electric car practical will by nature
do a lowish annual mileage. Which means the fuel cost may not be the
biggest part of overall new car ownership.

Agreed, though they're pushing the mew ones as being capable of fast
long distance travel, aided by charging points at motorway services. I
could go from Stoke to London in a day now by electric car, pausing en
route for large meals at Hopwood Park and Warwick services while the
car's batteries got topped up on the way. There may be other charging
points on the way, but they're the only ones I've noticed while walking
from the coach park into the service areas.

Then again, £20,000 only buys about 150,000 miles worth of petrol in a
car that size at motorway speed.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.


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On Sat, 08 Sep 2012 09:44:21 +0100, AJH
wrote:

On Sat, 8 Sep 2012 08:34:46 +0100, tony sayer
wrote:

It gives a consumption figure that looks like miles per watt hour which
doesn't seem right?..


Yes they seem to have that the wrong way around but 84Whr/mile is
impressive, given a litre of fuel has about 45kWhr/impgallon and
allowing about 30% thermal conversion to the wheels that would be in
the region of 300Whr/mile.


Which is inconsistent with the claim of a 16kWhr battery and a range
of 93 miles. That's 172Whr/mile, or 193Whr/mile if you use the more
credible 83 mile range.

My diesel (which is a larger and more practical car with a range of
well over 800 miles) uses about 670Whr/mile at your 45kWhr/gallon,
before taking account inefficiencies. If you add in all the electrical
plant and transmission losses for the electric car the raw energy
consumption works out about the samer.
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In article ,
John Williamson wrote:
Agreed, though they're pushing the mew ones as being capable of fast
long distance travel, aided by charging points at motorway services. I
could go from Stoke to London in a day now by electric car, pausing en
route for large meals at Hopwood Park and Warwick services while the
car's batteries got topped up on the way.


I expect to do London to Aberdeen in a lot less than a day. Including one
stop for refreshments. If it really takes a day to go by car from Stoke to
London, I'd use the coach. ;-)

--
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In article ,
AJH wrote:
£8K upwards. And it won't need £4K worth of replacement batteries every
few years. And it will do over 200 miles without having to stop for the
night.



So what is the total cost of ownership of a typical small new car? My
wife's has averaged 4400 miles per year from new and she seldom
travels more than 20 miles in a day, if she did she could take another
car. On the surface she is an ideal candidate for an electric vehicle.


Depends how you work things out. With low mileage, the cost of the fuel
becomes less important than other running costs like depreciation and
routine replacements, etc. Assuming her car averages about 35 mpg - which
should be perfectly possible with a good design, the petrol/diesel cost
per year is well under 1000 quid. If the batteries last 5 years and cost
4000 - work it out.

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On Sat, 08 Sep 2012 11:06:05 +0100, AJH
wrote:

e.g. if the battery is maintained charged and not
used (only self discharge being an issue) how long a life?


Around four years seems to be what you can expect under those
circumstances. There are improvements going on all the time with
lithium chemistry, but shelf life seems to be fairly static.
Iow, if I'm offered a brand new battery pack that's four years old and
never been used, I'd want it for nothing so I can see if it's any
good. There's no way I'd pay anything for it until I can see exactly
how it's fared in storage.

I've been messing around for the past couple of years with leccy bikes
and garnered some knowledge of battery packs, but the people who could
really answer your question are on www.endless-sphere.com

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On Fri, 07 Sep 2012 23:26:12 -0700, harry wrote:
Battery life depends on how you treat it.


Take it out for dinner once in a while.


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tony sayer wrote:

Well it sez a 93 mile range which I suppose would suit me a lot of the
time


It would if that wasn't a ludicrously optimistic estimate. If you get
2/3rds of that you'll be lucky.
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AJH wrote:
On Sat, 08 Sep 2012 17:17:18 +0100, Grimly Curmudgeon
wrote:

Around four years seems to be what you can expect under those
circumstances. There are improvements going on all the time with
lithium chemistry, but shelf life seems to be fairly static.


Lithium must be worse than lead acid then, my Landrover still has the
battery it came out of the MOD auction with in ~1995 and still starts
plus it had regular use up till 4 years ago.


it can be worse yes.


AJH



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(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.
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AJH wrote:
On Fri, 7 Sep 2012 21:30:56 +0100, tony sayer
wrote:

Well it sez a 93 mile range


...but the american site reduces this to 62 on average

AJH


Smaller gallons you see. ;-)

Tim
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On Sat, 08 Sep 2012 20:17:14 +0100, Tim+
wrote:

AJH wrote:
On Fri, 7 Sep 2012 21:30:56 +0100, tony sayer
wrote:

Well it sez a 93 mile range


...but the american site reduces this to 62 on average

AJH


Smaller gallons you see. ;-)

Tim


And longer miles. By something like an eighth of an inch.

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On Sat, 08 Sep 2012 19:27:39 +0100, AJH
wrote:

Lithium must be worse than lead acid then, my Landrover still has the
battery it came out of the MOD auction with in ~1995 and still starts
plus it had regular use up till 4 years ago.


And if someone offered you an unused (and I don't mean dry-charged) LA
battery that was four years old would you pay any money for it?
I wouldn't.


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In article ,
Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:
And if someone offered you an unused (and I don't mean dry-charged) LA
battery that was four years old would you pay any money for it?
I wouldn't.


If it had not been allowed to go flat at any point, I'd buy it - at the
right price. Obviously not full price since that would be pointless.

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On Sun, 09 Sep 2012 00:06:44 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:
And if someone offered you an unused (and I don't mean dry-charged) LA
battery that was four years old would you pay any money for it?
I wouldn't.


If it had not been allowed to go flat at any point, I'd buy it - at the
right price. Obviously not full price since that would be pointless.


I would pay nothing and only pay something once it'd been proven under
load for a while. Even then I'd only pay a fiver.
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On Sep 8, 8:37*am, tony sayer wrote:
In article
.com, harry scribeth thus

On Sep 7, 6:45*pm, Andy Cap wrote:
On 07/09/12 18:40, harryagain wrote:


Drove an electric car today.
Uncanny experience but good.
http://www.mitsubishi-cars.co.uk/imiev/technology.aspx


... and the batteries last how long and cost what to replace?


Andy C


Range is 83 miles. Batteries guaranteed for 5-10 years (Dependingon
how you treat them.). Replacement cost around £4,000


Well it does say range 93 miles, but how expensive is that to run
compared to petrol?..

It gives a consumption figure that looks like miles per watt hour which
doesn't seem right?..

Mind you if thats 28 K to buy then thats all rather academic..

--
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A lot of the energy expended (potential, kinetic) is recovered by
regeneration.
Only frictional losses can't be recovered.
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On Sep 8, 10:02*am, Andy Burns wrote:
harry wrote:
Batteries guaranteed for 5-10 years (Depending on how you treat
them.)


So how do they phrase that?


Should have said battery life.
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On Sep 8, 11:06*am, AJH wrote:
On Sat, 08 Sep 2012 10:22:05 +0100, John Williamson

wrote:
£8K upwards. And it won't need £4K worth of replacement batteries every
few years. And it will do over 200 miles without having to stop for the
night.


So what is the total cost of ownership of a typical small new car? My
wife's has averaged 4400 miles per year from new and she seldom
travels more than 20 miles in a day, if she did she could take another
car. On the surface she is an ideal candidate for an electric vehicle.
A lesser quadracycle is not acceptable and what about cabin heat in
the winter?

This battery life is interesting, I thought it was a function of
charge-discharge cycles AND time but I've never seen it stated as a
simple equation. e.g. if the battery is maintained charged and not
used (only self discharge being an issue) how long a life? As oppose
to being through a charge cycle and then 25% of useable capacity used
daily?

I imagine, leaving out any rate of return on investment, that this
will depreciate 30% in the first year, say GBP9k, amortisation of
battery, say GBP800, electricity on their figures and my wife's
mileage is only about GBP55. Assuming tax and insurance costs are the
same (no tax on electric or small cars?) that gives me a fixed cost of
GBP2.20/mile and running cost of about 1.5p/mile for the Miev.

AJH


A lot depends on where the price of petrol goes in the next few years.
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