http://theunderstatement.com/post/18...-tesla-motors-
devastating-design

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Bob Eager wrote:
http://theunderstatement.com/post/18...stating-design


:-)



--
Adam

On 24 Feb 2012 21:26:19 GMT, Bob Eager wrote:

http://theunderstatement.com/post/18...stating-design

That is just one ****ed-up bit of design if something as simple as a
battery disconnect on depletion to a setpoint is not included.

Crapola.

In article ,
wrote:
On 24 Feb 2012 21:26:19 GMT, Bob Eager wrote:

http://theunderstatement.com/post/18...stating-design

That is just one ****ed-up bit of design if something as simple as a
battery disconnect on depletion to a setpoint is not included.

Crapola.

Top Gear managed to break two. Fairy nuff if it were just a town electric
car, but it's sold on the basis of its performance as a sports car.

Their other classic was driving a Pious round their track with a BMW M3
following, and reporting the actual fuel consumed by both. The Pious used
more fuel.

--
*If a turtle doesn't have a shell, is he homeless or naked?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 24/02/2012 21:26, Bob Eager wrote:
http://theunderstatement.com/post/18...-tesla-motors-
devastating-design

Its a common problem with lots of modern battery technologies - they
must never be left to go flat, and have high auto discharge rates.


--
Cheers,

John.

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\================================================= ================/

On 24/02/2012 23:47, wrote:
On 24 Feb 2012 21:26:19 GMT, Bob wrote:

http://theunderstatement.com/post/18...stating-design

That is just one ****ed-up bit of design if something as simple as a
battery disconnect on depletion to a setpoint is not included.

would make no difference - the battery will eventually die (permanently)
even if not connected since it will self discharge.




--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Sat, 25 Feb 2012 00:46:15 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:

That is just one ****ed-up bit of design if something as simple as a
battery disconnect on depletion to a setpoint is not included.

would make no difference - the battery will eventually die (permanently)
even if not connected since it will self discharge.

But it would buy some extra time and an auxiliary battery (just a
small one) could sound a low-charge alarm.

On Sat, 25 Feb 2012 00:45:17 +0000, John Rumm wrote:

On 24/02/2012 21:26, Bob Eager wrote:
http://theunderstatement.com/post/18...-tesla-motors-
devastating-design

Its a common problem with lots of modern battery technologies - they
must never be left to go flat, and have high auto discharge rates.

I think the point of the article is:

a) the high cost
b) no way of insuring the loss
c) the 'secret' tracking by Tesla



--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

*lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor

wrote in message
...
On Sat, 25 Feb 2012 00:46:15 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:

That is just one ****ed-up bit of design if something as simple as a
battery disconnect on depletion to a setpoint is not included.

would make no difference - the battery will eventually die (permanently)
even if not connected since it will self discharge.

But it would buy some extra time and an auxiliary battery (just a
small one) could sound a low-charge alarm

With all this talk about batteries what about the gasses from a battery
while it's being charged or have they found a way round that?
Robbie.

wrote:

On 24 Feb 2012 21:26:19 GMT, Bob Eager wrote:

http://theunderstatement.com/post/18...-tesla-motors-
devastating-design

That is just one ****ed-up bit of design if something as simple as a
battery disconnect on depletion to a setpoint is not included.

Crapola.

If the report is accurate it really just is **** poor engineering.

1) Why do half the cars systems have to remain powered up?

2) If they do, why do they take more than a milliamp? With a battery pack
like Tesla has, a miliamp would take years to discharge. Most embedded
microcontrollers can idle in a mostly sleep mode below 1uA even allowing for
period waking up to check something.

I have a lead acid battery which has a capacity of less than 100Ah and yet I
can leave my car for weeks despite there being a couple of devices that do
draw.

3) If the batteries get to a critical level of discharge, why doesn't all
the electronics shut down cold? OK - this may require a bit of intervention
to reboot the system with a charger attached, but it would be a lot less bad
than chemical destruction of the batteries.

Tesla must know its a scam/**** design or their warranty would cover it.
It's ******** to say it's the user's fault for not charging the system -
Tesla are completely in control as it is their electronics between the
batteries and everything else.

--
Tim Watts

John Rumm wrote:

On 24/02/2012 23:47, wrote:
On 24 Feb 2012 21:26:19 GMT, Bob wrote:

http://theunderstatement.com/post/18...-tesla-motors-
devastating-design

That is just one ****ed-up bit of design if something as simple as a
battery disconnect on depletion to a setpoint is not included.

would make no difference - the battery will eventually die (permanently)
even if not connected since it will self discharge.

In 11 weeks from say half charge? That's quite a significant discharge
rate...

One could accept if you garaged it for a year or more that this could be an
issue, but the article suggests there is too much idle load on the batteries
in the form of systems running.

Cheers,

Tim
--
Tim Watts

Roberts wrote:


wrote in message
...
On Sat, 25 Feb 2012 00:46:15 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:

That is just one ****ed-up bit of design if something as simple as a
battery disconnect on depletion to a setpoint is not included.

would make no difference - the battery will eventually die (permanently)
even if not connected since it will self discharge.

But it would buy some extra time and an auxiliary battery (just a
small one) could sound a low-charge alarm

With all this talk about batteries what about the gasses from a battery
while it's being charged or have they found a way round that?
Robbie.

They use lithium ion batteries, not lead acid.
--
Tim Watts

"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
wrote:

3) If the batteries get to a critical level of discharge, why doesn't all
the electronics shut down cold? OK - this may require a bit of
intervention
to reboot the system with a charger attached, but it would be a lot less
bad
than chemical destruction of the batteries.

Tesla must know its a scam/**** design or their warranty would cover it.
It's ******** to say it's the user's fault for not charging the system -
Tesla are completely in control as it is their electronics between the
batteries and everything else.

--
Tim Watts

If you want to see what a liability owning one of these beasts is, have a
look at the roadster manual:-

http://tinyurl.com/roadster-manual

On 25/02/2012 00:45, John Rumm wrote:
On 24/02/2012 21:26, Bob Eager wrote:
http://theunderstatement.com/post/18...-tesla-motors-
devastating-design

Its a common problem with lots of modern battery technologies - they
must never be left to go flat, and have high auto discharge rates.

I think it is the batteries own self discharge rate in the pack that is
the problem here and not the permanently on power subsystems. They just
deliver the coup de grace at the end taking it into unrechargable brick
state. In other words the no self destruct protection is activated.

Some of my camera batteries have about the same lifetime ~11 weeks on
the shelf if left unused too. It is faintly annoying but they are
cheaper to replace if they get wrecked. Most of my portable PCs
batteries die a horrible death in 3-5 years of near continuous use.

What might be an issue is that most sensible standby electronics
switches off when the battery gets too close to its death zone.

In the case of the Tesla it should probably sound an alarm or send a
"Charge Me" text to the owner or something when the battery is close to
becoming a brick. The only sensor needed is a low battery alarm!

I cannot see how the addition of 100ft extension cable that was not
running hot could decrease the charge rate to a point where the car
could die whilst being on charge. The pack is nominally 375v and 50kWh
so delivering 3A for an hour would put 1kWh into it and 1A would be more
than enough to hold it. I suppose it is possible that the charger is too
clever by half and sees even a small resistive load in the cable as
nearly charged battery. You do have to be very careful with Li-ion cells
as their tendency to self immolate if overcharged is notorious.

Here is Telsas own more flattering description of their battery:
http://webarchive.teslamotors.com/di...terySystem.pdf

I reckon it is far more likely that the idiot user unplugged it!

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On Sat, 25 Feb 2012 10:13:27 +0000, Martin Brown wrote:

What might be an issue is that most sensible standby electronics
switches off when the battery gets too close to its death zone.

In the case of the Tesla it should probably sound an alarm or send a
"Charge Me" text to the owner or something when the battery is close to
becoming a brick. The only sensor needed is a low battery alarm!

I think there is one. The issue is if the car is parked unattended, and
discharge is faster than expected. The example given was an airport car
park and an extended trip away.

--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

*lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor

Andy Bartlett wrote:


"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
wrote:

3) If the batteries get to a critical level of discharge, why doesn't all
the electronics shut down cold? OK - this may require a bit of
intervention
to reboot the system with a charger attached, but it would be a lot less
bad
than chemical destruction of the batteries.

Tesla must know its a scam/**** design or their warranty would cover it.
It's ******** to say it's the user's fault for not charging the system -
Tesla are completely in control as it is their electronics between the
batteries and everything else.

--
Tim Watts

If you want to see what a liability owning one of these beasts is, have a
look at the roadster manual:-

http://tinyurl.com/roadster-manual

"When fully
charged, the Batterys charge level can drop
as much as 7% a day and 50% within the first
week. When the Batterys charge level falls
below 50%, the rate of decline slows down to
approximately 5% per week
"

Bloody hell. That's one hell of a leaky system.

--
Tim Watts

"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
Andy Bartlett wrote:


"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
wrote:

3) If the batteries get to a critical level of discharge, why doesn't
all
the electronics shut down cold? OK - this may require a bit of
intervention
to reboot the system with a charger attached, but it would be a lot less
bad
than chemical destruction of the batteries.

Tesla must know its a scam/**** design or their warranty would cover it.
It's ******** to say it's the user's fault for not charging the system -
Tesla are completely in control as it is their electronics between the
batteries and everything else.

--
Tim Watts

If you want to see what a liability owning one of these beasts is, have a
look at the roadster manual:-

http://tinyurl.com/roadster-manual

"When fully
charged, the Battery's charge level can drop
as much as 7% a day and 50% within the first
week. When the Battery's charge level falls
below 50%, the rate of decline slows down to
approximately 5% per week
"

Bloody hell. That's one hell of a leaky system.

--
Tim Watts


Still, should keep the frost out of the garage during the winter months!

Andy

"Andy Bartlett" wrote in message
o.uk...

"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
Andy Bartlett wrote:


"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
wrote:

3) If the batteries get to a critical level of discharge, why doesn't
all
the electronics shut down cold? OK - this may require a bit of
intervention
to reboot the system with a charger attached, but it would be a lot
less
bad
than chemical destruction of the batteries.

Tesla must know its a scam/**** design or their warranty would cover
it.
It's ******** to say it's the user's fault for not charging the
system -
Tesla are completely in control as it is their electronics between the
batteries and everything else.

--
Tim Watts

If you want to see what a liability owning one of these beasts is, have
a
look at the roadster manual:-

http://tinyurl.com/roadster-manual

"When fully
charged, the Battery's charge level can drop
as much as 7% a day and 50% within the first
week. When the Battery's charge level falls
below 50%, the rate of decline slows down to
approximately 5% per week
"

Bloody hell. That's one hell of a leaky system.

--
Tim Watts


Still, should keep the frost out of the garage during the winter months!

Andy


OOOPs!

"Operating temperature
Driving: -1°F to 122°F (-17°C to 50°C)
Charging: 32°F to 113°F (0°C to 45°C)"

If it goes below 0°C and the battery needs charging - your fu$%ed!

wrote:
On 24 Feb 2012 21:26:19 GMT, Bob Eager wrote:

http://theunderstatement.com/post/18...stating-design

That is just one ****ed-up bit of design if something as simple as a
battery disconnect on depletion to a setpoint is not included.


Well yes and no. The problem is that the self discharge of lithium cells
- whilst pretty good - is still enough to ruin them.

Disconnected or not.


Normally you should have at least a years worth but often enough things
can be slightly wrong and you dont.

Crapola.

Roberts wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Sat, 25 Feb 2012 00:46:15 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:

That is just one ****ed-up bit of design if something as simple as a
battery disconnect on depletion to a setpoint is not included.
would make no difference - the battery will eventually die (permanently)
even if not connected since it will self discharge.
But it would buy some extra time and an auxiliary battery (just a
small one) could sound a low-charge alarm

With all this talk about batteries what about the gasses from a battery
while it's being charged or have they found a way round that?
Robbie.


There are no gases from a normal lithium cell charge.

On Sat, 25 Feb 2012 10:13:27 +0000, Martin Brown wrote:

I suppose it is possible that the charger is too clever by half and sees
even a small resistive load in the cable as nearly charged battery.

I thought the "extension cable" was between the mains supply and the
car which contained the charger. Thus thuis being the US and 110v the
volt drop on the cable when (trying to) pull a decent current was to
great perhaps causing the charger to drop out due to low supply
volts.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 25/02/2012 12:57, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sat, 25 Feb 2012 10:13:27 +0000, Martin Brown wrote:

I suppose it is possible that the charger is too clever by half and sees
even a small resistive load in the cable as nearly charged battery.

I thought the "extension cable" was between the mains supply and the
car which contained the charger. Thus thuis being the US and 110v the
volt drop on the cable when (trying to) pull a decent current was to
great perhaps causing the charger to drop out due to low supply
volts.

High current devices like aircons and I would expect electric car
battery chargers in countries like the USA are usually run on 220v
across the antiphase pair rather than off a single phase domestic mains.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On Sat, 25 Feb 2012 13:21:40 +0000, Martin Brown wrote:

High current devices like aircons and I would expect electric car
battery chargers in countries like the USA are usually run on 220v
across the antiphase pair rather than off a single phase domestic mains.

True that halves the current demand for the same power but does the
Tesla live off 110v (easyly available) or 220? Is 220 kit plugable
or hardwired? As you say it's only heavy load fixed kit that lives on
220 so it doesn't need to be plugable.

Even at 110v a 30m extension cable isn't that long, I'd almost need
that to get from a convient socket to where the cars park...

--
Cheers
Dave.

In article o.uk,
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sat, 25 Feb 2012 13:21:40 +0000, Martin Brown wrote:

High current devices like aircons and I would expect electric car
battery chargers in countries like the USA are usually run on 220v
across the antiphase pair rather than off a single phase domestic
mains.

True that halves the current demand for the same power but does the
Tesla live off 110v (easyly available) or 220? Is 220 kit plugable
or hardwired? As you say it's only heavy load fixed kit that lives on
220 so it doesn't need to be plugable.

A 110v 15 amp supply wouldn't be of much use to a car which runs solely
off electricity. Unless you charged it for a week and used it for an
afternoon. ;-)

--
*What was the best thing before sliced bread? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article o.uk,
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sat, 25 Feb 2012 13:21:40 +0000, Martin Brown wrote:

High current devices like aircons and I would expect electric car
battery chargers in countries like the USA are usually run on 220v
across the antiphase pair rather than off a single phase domestic
mains.

True that halves the current demand for the same power but does the
Tesla live off 110v (easyly available) or 220? Is 220 kit plugable
or hardwired? As you say it's only heavy load fixed kit that lives on
220 so it doesn't need to be plugable.

A 110v 15 amp supply wouldn't be of much use to a car which runs solely
off electricity. Unless you charged it for a week and used it for an
afternoon. ;-)


Not quite that bad. charged for 24 hours, used for 20 minutes..

Andy Bartlett wrote:
"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
wrote:

3) If the batteries get to a critical level of discharge, why
doesn't all the electronics shut down cold? OK - this may require a
bit of intervention
to reboot the system with a charger attached, but it would be a lot
less bad
than chemical destruction of the batteries.

Tesla must know its a scam/**** design or their warranty would
cover it. It's ******** to say it's the user's fault for not
charging the system - Tesla are completely in control as it is
their electronics between the batteries and everything else.

--
Tim Watts

If you want to see what a liability owning one of these beasts is,
have a look at the roadster manual:-

http://tinyurl.com/roadster-manual

£50 says Drivel has a well worn printed off copy for his bednight reading.

--
Adam

On 25/02/2012 08:34, Tim Watts wrote:
John Rumm wrote:

On 24/02/2012 23:47, wrote:
On 24 Feb 2012 21:26:19 GMT, Bob wrote:

http://theunderstatement.com/post/18...-tesla-motors-
devastating-design

That is just one ****ed-up bit of design if something as simple as a
battery disconnect on depletion to a setpoint is not included.

would make no difference - the battery will eventually die (permanently)
even if not connected since it will self discharge.

In 11 weeks from say half charge? That's quite a significant discharge
rate...

IIUC the 11 weeks is the result from both self discharge and background
load. In the absence of background load it would obviously last longer
(hence my comment of "eventually"). The point I was really making that
just disconnecting the load alone will not fix the problem totally.

One could accept if you garaged it for a year or more that this could be an
issue, but the article suggests there is too much idle load on the batteries
in the form of systems running.

yup


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
wrote:
On 24 Feb 2012 21:26:19 GMT, Bob Eager wrote:

http://theunderstatement.com/post/18...stating-design

That is just one ****ed-up bit of design if something as simple as a
battery disconnect on depletion to a setpoint is not included.

Crapola.

Top Gear managed to break two.

But idiot Clarkson was amazed at the acceleration.

Their other classic was driving a Pious round their track with a BMW M3

Gormless one, the Prius is not designed to run around race track.

In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
wrote:
On 24 Feb 2012 21:26:19 GMT, Bob Eager wrote:

http://theunderstatement.com/post/18...stating-design

That is just one ****ed-up bit of design if something as simple as a
battery disconnect on depletion to a setpoint is not included.

Crapola.

Top Gear managed to break two.

But idiot Clarkson was amazed at the acceleration.

Yes - he does tend to be amazed when a broken design moves at all.

Their other classic was driving a Pious round their track with a BMW M3

Gormless one, the Prius is not designed to run around race track.

Oh indeed. It was designed for the streets of LA and other Califonian
cities. Which is why it is so useless in the UK.

--
*Support bacteria - they're the only culture some people have *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
wrote:
On 24 Feb 2012 21:26:19 GMT, Bob Eager wrote:

http://theunderstatement.com/post/18...stating-design

That is just one ****ed-up bit of design if something as simple as a
battery disconnect on depletion to a setpoint is not included.

Crapola.

Top Gear managed to break two.

But idiot Clarkson was amazed at the acceleration.

Yes

You are a senile plantpot.