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Electric cars again
http://theunderstatement.com/post/18...-tesla-motors-
devastating-design -- Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org *lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor |
Electric cars again
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Electric cars again
On 24 Feb 2012 21:26:19 GMT, Bob Eager wrote:
http://theunderstatement.com/post/18...stating-design That is just one ****ed-up bit of design if something as simple as a battery disconnect on depletion to a setpoint is not included. Crapola. |
Electric cars again
In article ,
wrote: On 24 Feb 2012 21:26:19 GMT, Bob Eager wrote: http://theunderstatement.com/post/18...stating-design That is just one ****ed-up bit of design if something as simple as a battery disconnect on depletion to a setpoint is not included. Crapola. Top Gear managed to break two. Fairy nuff if it were just a town electric car, but it's sold on the basis of its performance as a sports car. Their other classic was driving a Pious round their track with a BMW M3 following, and reporting the actual fuel consumed by both. The Pious used more fuel. -- *If a turtle doesn't have a shell, is he homeless or naked? Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
Electric cars again
On 24/02/2012 21:26, Bob Eager wrote:
http://theunderstatement.com/post/18...-tesla-motors- devastating-design Its a common problem with lots of modern battery technologies - they must never be left to go flat, and have high auto discharge rates. -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
Electric cars again
On 24/02/2012 23:47, wrote:
On 24 Feb 2012 21:26:19 GMT, Bob wrote: http://theunderstatement.com/post/18...stating-design That is just one ****ed-up bit of design if something as simple as a battery disconnect on depletion to a setpoint is not included. would make no difference - the battery will eventually die (permanently) even if not connected since it will self discharge. -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
Electric cars again
On Sat, 25 Feb 2012 00:46:15 +0000, John Rumm
wrote: That is just one ****ed-up bit of design if something as simple as a battery disconnect on depletion to a setpoint is not included. would make no difference - the battery will eventually die (permanently) even if not connected since it will self discharge. But it would buy some extra time and an auxiliary battery (just a small one) could sound a low-charge alarm. |
Electric cars again
On Sat, 25 Feb 2012 00:45:17 +0000, John Rumm wrote:
On 24/02/2012 21:26, Bob Eager wrote: http://theunderstatement.com/post/18...-tesla-motors- devastating-design Its a common problem with lots of modern battery technologies - they must never be left to go flat, and have high auto discharge rates. I think the point of the article is: a) the high cost b) no way of insuring the loss c) the 'secret' tracking by Tesla -- Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org *lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor |
Electric cars again
wrote in message ... On Sat, 25 Feb 2012 00:46:15 +0000, John Rumm wrote: That is just one ****ed-up bit of design if something as simple as a battery disconnect on depletion to a setpoint is not included. would make no difference - the battery will eventually die (permanently) even if not connected since it will self discharge. But it would buy some extra time and an auxiliary battery (just a small one) could sound a low-charge alarm With all this talk about batteries what about the gasses from a battery while it's being charged or have they found a way round that? Robbie. |
Electric cars again
John Rumm wrote:
On 24/02/2012 23:47, wrote: On 24 Feb 2012 21:26:19 GMT, Bob wrote: http://theunderstatement.com/post/18...-tesla-motors- devastating-design That is just one ****ed-up bit of design if something as simple as a battery disconnect on depletion to a setpoint is not included. would make no difference - the battery will eventually die (permanently) even if not connected since it will self discharge. In 11 weeks from say half charge? That's quite a significant discharge rate... One could accept if you garaged it for a year or more that this could be an issue, but the article suggests there is too much idle load on the batteries in the form of systems running. Cheers, Tim -- Tim Watts |
Electric cars again
Roberts wrote:
wrote in message ... On Sat, 25 Feb 2012 00:46:15 +0000, John Rumm wrote: That is just one ****ed-up bit of design if something as simple as a battery disconnect on depletion to a setpoint is not included. would make no difference - the battery will eventually die (permanently) even if not connected since it will self discharge. But it would buy some extra time and an auxiliary battery (just a small one) could sound a low-charge alarm With all this talk about batteries what about the gasses from a battery while it's being charged or have they found a way round that? Robbie. They use lithium ion batteries, not lead acid. -- Tim Watts |
Electric cars again
"Tim Watts" wrote in message ... wrote: 3) If the batteries get to a critical level of discharge, why doesn't all the electronics shut down cold? OK - this may require a bit of intervention to reboot the system with a charger attached, but it would be a lot less bad than chemical destruction of the batteries. Tesla must know its a scam/**** design or their warranty would cover it. It's ******** to say it's the user's fault for not charging the system - Tesla are completely in control as it is their electronics between the batteries and everything else. -- Tim Watts If you want to see what a liability owning one of these beasts is, have a look at the roadster manual:- http://tinyurl.com/roadster-manual |
Electric cars again
On 25/02/2012 00:45, John Rumm wrote:
On 24/02/2012 21:26, Bob Eager wrote: http://theunderstatement.com/post/18...-tesla-motors- devastating-design Its a common problem with lots of modern battery technologies - they must never be left to go flat, and have high auto discharge rates. I think it is the batteries own self discharge rate in the pack that is the problem here and not the permanently on power subsystems. They just deliver the coup de grace at the end taking it into unrechargable brick state. In other words the no self destruct protection is activated. Some of my camera batteries have about the same lifetime ~11 weeks on the shelf if left unused too. It is faintly annoying but they are cheaper to replace if they get wrecked. Most of my portable PCs batteries die a horrible death in 3-5 years of near continuous use. What might be an issue is that most sensible standby electronics switches off when the battery gets too close to its death zone. In the case of the Tesla it should probably sound an alarm or send a "Charge Me" text to the owner or something when the battery is close to becoming a brick. The only sensor needed is a low battery alarm! I cannot see how the addition of 100ft extension cable that was not running hot could decrease the charge rate to a point where the car could die whilst being on charge. The pack is nominally 375v and 50kWh so delivering 3A for an hour would put 1kWh into it and 1A would be more than enough to hold it. I suppose it is possible that the charger is too clever by half and sees even a small resistive load in the cable as nearly charged battery. You do have to be very careful with Li-ion cells as their tendency to self immolate if overcharged is notorious. Here is Telsas own more flattering description of their battery: http://webarchive.teslamotors.com/di...terySystem.pdf I reckon it is far more likely that the idiot user unplugged it! -- Regards, Martin Brown |
Electric cars again
On Sat, 25 Feb 2012 10:13:27 +0000, Martin Brown wrote:
What might be an issue is that most sensible standby electronics switches off when the battery gets too close to its death zone. In the case of the Tesla it should probably sound an alarm or send a "Charge Me" text to the owner or something when the battery is close to becoming a brick. The only sensor needed is a low battery alarm! I think there is one. The issue is if the car is parked unattended, and discharge is faster than expected. The example given was an airport car park and an extended trip away. -- Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org *lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor |
Electric cars again
Andy Bartlett wrote:
"Tim Watts" wrote in message ... wrote: 3) If the batteries get to a critical level of discharge, why doesn't all the electronics shut down cold? OK - this may require a bit of intervention to reboot the system with a charger attached, but it would be a lot less bad than chemical destruction of the batteries. Tesla must know its a scam/**** design or their warranty would cover it. It's ******** to say it's the user's fault for not charging the system - Tesla are completely in control as it is their electronics between the batteries and everything else. -- Tim Watts If you want to see what a liability owning one of these beasts is, have a look at the roadster manual:- http://tinyurl.com/roadster-manual "When fully charged, the Batterys charge level can drop as much as 7% a day and 50% within the first week. When the Batterys charge level falls below 50%, the rate of decline slows down to approximately 5% per week " Bloody hell. That's one hell of a leaky system. -- Tim Watts |
Electric cars again
"Tim Watts" wrote in message ... Andy Bartlett wrote: "Tim Watts" wrote in message ... wrote: 3) If the batteries get to a critical level of discharge, why doesn't all the electronics shut down cold? OK - this may require a bit of intervention to reboot the system with a charger attached, but it would be a lot less bad than chemical destruction of the batteries. Tesla must know its a scam/**** design or their warranty would cover it. It's ******** to say it's the user's fault for not charging the system - Tesla are completely in control as it is their electronics between the batteries and everything else. -- Tim Watts If you want to see what a liability owning one of these beasts is, have a look at the roadster manual:- http://tinyurl.com/roadster-manual "When fully charged, the Battery's charge level can drop as much as 7% a day and 50% within the first week. When the Battery's charge level falls below 50%, the rate of decline slows down to approximately 5% per week " Bloody hell. That's one hell of a leaky system. -- Tim Watts Still, should keep the frost out of the garage during the winter months! Andy |
Electric cars again
"Andy Bartlett" wrote in message o.uk... "Tim Watts" wrote in message ... Andy Bartlett wrote: "Tim Watts" wrote in message ... wrote: 3) If the batteries get to a critical level of discharge, why doesn't all the electronics shut down cold? OK - this may require a bit of intervention to reboot the system with a charger attached, but it would be a lot less bad than chemical destruction of the batteries. Tesla must know its a scam/**** design or their warranty would cover it. It's ******** to say it's the user's fault for not charging the system - Tesla are completely in control as it is their electronics between the batteries and everything else. -- Tim Watts If you want to see what a liability owning one of these beasts is, have a look at the roadster manual:- http://tinyurl.com/roadster-manual "When fully charged, the Battery's charge level can drop as much as 7% a day and 50% within the first week. When the Battery's charge level falls below 50%, the rate of decline slows down to approximately 5% per week " Bloody hell. That's one hell of a leaky system. -- Tim Watts Still, should keep the frost out of the garage during the winter months! Andy OOOPs! "Operating temperature Driving: -1°F to 122°F (-17°C to 50°C) Charging: 32°F to 113°F (0°C to 45°C)" If it goes below 0°C and the battery needs charging - your fu$%ed! |
Electric cars again
wrote:
On 24 Feb 2012 21:26:19 GMT, Bob Eager wrote: http://theunderstatement.com/post/18...stating-design That is just one ****ed-up bit of design if something as simple as a battery disconnect on depletion to a setpoint is not included. Well yes and no. The problem is that the self discharge of lithium cells - whilst pretty good - is still enough to ruin them. Disconnected or not. Normally you should have at least a years worth but often enough things can be slightly wrong and you dont. Crapola. |
Electric cars again
Roberts wrote:
wrote in message ... On Sat, 25 Feb 2012 00:46:15 +0000, John Rumm wrote: That is just one ****ed-up bit of design if something as simple as a battery disconnect on depletion to a setpoint is not included. would make no difference - the battery will eventually die (permanently) even if not connected since it will self discharge. But it would buy some extra time and an auxiliary battery (just a small one) could sound a low-charge alarm With all this talk about batteries what about the gasses from a battery while it's being charged or have they found a way round that? Robbie. There are no gases from a normal lithium cell charge. |
Electric cars again
On Sat, 25 Feb 2012 10:13:27 +0000, Martin Brown wrote:
I suppose it is possible that the charger is too clever by half and sees even a small resistive load in the cable as nearly charged battery. I thought the "extension cable" was between the mains supply and the car which contained the charger. Thus thuis being the US and 110v the volt drop on the cable when (trying to) pull a decent current was to great perhaps causing the charger to drop out due to low supply volts. -- Cheers Dave. |
Electric cars again
On 25/02/2012 12:57, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sat, 25 Feb 2012 10:13:27 +0000, Martin Brown wrote: I suppose it is possible that the charger is too clever by half and sees even a small resistive load in the cable as nearly charged battery. I thought the "extension cable" was between the mains supply and the car which contained the charger. Thus thuis being the US and 110v the volt drop on the cable when (trying to) pull a decent current was to great perhaps causing the charger to drop out due to low supply volts. High current devices like aircons and I would expect electric car battery chargers in countries like the USA are usually run on 220v across the antiphase pair rather than off a single phase domestic mains. -- Regards, Martin Brown |
Electric cars again
On Sat, 25 Feb 2012 13:21:40 +0000, Martin Brown wrote:
High current devices like aircons and I would expect electric car battery chargers in countries like the USA are usually run on 220v across the antiphase pair rather than off a single phase domestic mains. True that halves the current demand for the same power but does the Tesla live off 110v (easyly available) or 220? Is 220 kit plugable or hardwired? As you say it's only heavy load fixed kit that lives on 220 so it doesn't need to be plugable. Even at 110v a 30m extension cable isn't that long, I'd almost need that to get from a convient socket to where the cars park... -- Cheers Dave. |
Electric cars again
In article o.uk,
Dave Liquorice wrote: On Sat, 25 Feb 2012 13:21:40 +0000, Martin Brown wrote: High current devices like aircons and I would expect electric car battery chargers in countries like the USA are usually run on 220v across the antiphase pair rather than off a single phase domestic mains. True that halves the current demand for the same power but does the Tesla live off 110v (easyly available) or 220? Is 220 kit plugable or hardwired? As you say it's only heavy load fixed kit that lives on 220 so it doesn't need to be plugable. A 110v 15 amp supply wouldn't be of much use to a car which runs solely off electricity. Unless you charged it for a week and used it for an afternoon. ;-) -- *What was the best thing before sliced bread? * Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
Electric cars again
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article o.uk, Dave Liquorice wrote: On Sat, 25 Feb 2012 13:21:40 +0000, Martin Brown wrote: High current devices like aircons and I would expect electric car battery chargers in countries like the USA are usually run on 220v across the antiphase pair rather than off a single phase domestic mains. True that halves the current demand for the same power but does the Tesla live off 110v (easyly available) or 220? Is 220 kit plugable or hardwired? As you say it's only heavy load fixed kit that lives on 220 so it doesn't need to be plugable. A 110v 15 amp supply wouldn't be of much use to a car which runs solely off electricity. Unless you charged it for a week and used it for an afternoon. ;-) Not quite that bad. charged for 24 hours, used for 20 minutes.. |
Electric cars again
Andy Bartlett wrote:
"Tim Watts" wrote in message ... wrote: 3) If the batteries get to a critical level of discharge, why doesn't all the electronics shut down cold? OK - this may require a bit of intervention to reboot the system with a charger attached, but it would be a lot less bad than chemical destruction of the batteries. Tesla must know its a scam/**** design or their warranty would cover it. It's ******** to say it's the user's fault for not charging the system - Tesla are completely in control as it is their electronics between the batteries and everything else. -- Tim Watts If you want to see what a liability owning one of these beasts is, have a look at the roadster manual:- http://tinyurl.com/roadster-manual £50 says Drivel has a well worn printed off copy for his bednight reading. -- Adam |
Electric cars again
On 25/02/2012 08:34, Tim Watts wrote:
John Rumm wrote: On 24/02/2012 23:47, wrote: On 24 Feb 2012 21:26:19 GMT, Bob wrote: http://theunderstatement.com/post/18...-tesla-motors- devastating-design That is just one ****ed-up bit of design if something as simple as a battery disconnect on depletion to a setpoint is not included. would make no difference - the battery will eventually die (permanently) even if not connected since it will self discharge. In 11 weeks from say half charge? That's quite a significant discharge rate... IIUC the 11 weeks is the result from both self discharge and background load. In the absence of background load it would obviously last longer (hence my comment of "eventually"). The point I was really making that just disconnecting the load alone will not fix the problem totally. One could accept if you garaged it for a year or more that this could be an issue, but the article suggests there is too much idle load on the batteries in the form of systems running. yup -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
Electric cars again
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message ... In article , wrote: On 24 Feb 2012 21:26:19 GMT, Bob Eager wrote: http://theunderstatement.com/post/18...stating-design That is just one ****ed-up bit of design if something as simple as a battery disconnect on depletion to a setpoint is not included. Crapola. Top Gear managed to break two. But idiot Clarkson was amazed at the acceleration. Their other classic was driving a Pious round their track with a BMW M3 Gormless one, the Prius is not designed to run around race track. |
Electric cars again
In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote: "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message ... In article , wrote: On 24 Feb 2012 21:26:19 GMT, Bob Eager wrote: http://theunderstatement.com/post/18...stating-design That is just one ****ed-up bit of design if something as simple as a battery disconnect on depletion to a setpoint is not included. Crapola. Top Gear managed to break two. But idiot Clarkson was amazed at the acceleration. Yes - he does tend to be amazed when a broken design moves at all. Their other classic was driving a Pious round their track with a BMW M3 Gormless one, the Prius is not designed to run around race track. Oh indeed. It was designed for the streets of LA and other Califonian cities. Which is why it is so useless in the UK. -- *Support bacteria - they're the only culture some people have * Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
Electric cars again
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message ... In article , Doctor Drivel wrote: "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message ... In article , wrote: On 24 Feb 2012 21:26:19 GMT, Bob Eager wrote: http://theunderstatement.com/post/18...stating-design That is just one ****ed-up bit of design if something as simple as a battery disconnect on depletion to a setpoint is not included. Crapola. Top Gear managed to break two. But idiot Clarkson was amazed at the acceleration. Yes You are a senile plantpot. |
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