Two issues here.

(1) I would like to be able to access the wiring into the ceiling roses from
above for maintenance, but I also want to floor in the whole loft with T&G
loft panels. At the moment I can get at most of the wiring because the last
third of the loft isn't yet floored in, and the area where the cold water
tanks sat is also not floored in so I can slide T&G boards sideways to get
them out. However when the whole lot is done, the lighting wiring will be
concealed and getting at it could be a major operation.

(2) I really, really hate it when the ceiling rose has three or more sets of
wires coming into such a small space. Endless fiddling to get everything to
slide down for access, then slide back up again to refit the rose. Also
doing it perched on a set of steps looking up.

So I would like to do one of two things.

Either just put some kind of inspection hatch over each ceiling rose -
something low profile like a metal plate which can have stuff placed on it
when not being accessed - or bring the wiring up through the floor into some
kind of junction box so that each light fitting only has two wires and the
wiring is easily available on the loft floor.

Both solve problem (1) but the junction box is an obstruction/trip hazard so
although solving (2) it causes other problems.

How about fitting a dry wall box into the wooden floor and having some kind
of junction in there, with a blank face plate?
If so, what kind of junction?
Can you get blocks of connectors (something more sophisticated than choc
bloks) which are suitable, or even a proper junction box with strain relief
which will fit in a wall/floor box?

Cheers

Dave R

On 28/08/2012 08:40, David WE Roberts wrote:
Two issues here.

(1) I would like to be able to access the wiring into the ceiling roses from
above for maintenance, but I also want to floor in the whole loft with T&G
loft panels. At the moment I can get at most of the wiring because the last
third of the loft isn't yet floored in, and the area where the cold water
tanks sat is also not floored in so I can slide T&G boards sideways to get
them out. However when the whole lot is done, the lighting wiring will be
concealed and getting at it could be a major operation.

(2) I really, really hate it when the ceiling rose has three or more sets of
wires coming into such a small space. Endless fiddling to get everything to
slide down for access, then slide back up again to refit the rose. Also
doing it perched on a set of steps looking up.

So I would like to do one of two things.

Either just put some kind of inspection hatch over each ceiling rose -
something low profile like a metal plate which can have stuff placed on it
when not being accessed - or bring the wiring up through the floor into some
kind of junction box so that each light fitting only has two wires and the
wiring is easily available on the loft floor.

Both solve problem (1) but the junction box is an obstruction/trip hazard so
although solving (2) it causes other problems.

That is what these are designed for:

http://www.trend-uk.com/en/UK/produc...Routabout.html

Colin Bignell

"Nightjar" wrote in message
...
On 28/08/2012 08:40, David WE Roberts wrote:
Two issues here.

(1) I would like to be able to access the wiring into the ceiling roses
from
above for maintenance, but I also want to floor in the whole loft with
T&G
loft panels. At the moment I can get at most of the wiring because the
last
third of the loft isn't yet floored in, and the area where the cold water
tanks sat is also not floored in so I can slide T&G boards sideways to
get
them out. However when the whole lot is done, the lighting wiring will be
concealed and getting at it could be a major operation.

(2) I really, really hate it when the ceiling rose has three or more sets
of
wires coming into such a small space. Endless fiddling to get everything
to
slide down for access, then slide back up again to refit the rose. Also
doing it perched on a set of steps looking up.

So I would like to do one of two things.

Either just put some kind of inspection hatch over each ceiling rose -
something low profile like a metal plate which can have stuff placed on
it
when not being accessed - or bring the wiring up through the floor into
some
kind of junction box so that each light fitting only has two wires and
the
wiring is easily available on the loft floor.

Both solve problem (1) but the junction box is an obstruction/trip hazard
so
although solving (2) it causes other problems.

That is what these are designed for:

http://www.trend-uk.com/en/UK/produc...Routabout.html

Colin Bignell


Ah - yes - forgot about those.
Solves problem (1) but not problem (2)

"Nightjar" wrote in message
...
On 28/08/2012 08:40, David WE Roberts wrote:
Two issues here.

(1) I would like to be able to access the wiring into the ceiling roses
from
above for maintenance, but I also want to floor in the whole loft with
T&G
loft panels. At the moment I can get at most of the wiring because the
last
third of the loft isn't yet floored in, and the area where the cold water
tanks sat is also not floored in so I can slide T&G boards sideways to
get
them out. However when the whole lot is done, the lighting wiring will be
concealed and getting at it could be a major operation.

(2) I really, really hate it when the ceiling rose has three or more sets
of
wires coming into such a small space. Endless fiddling to get everything
to
slide down for access, then slide back up again to refit the rose. Also
doing it perched on a set of steps looking up.

So I would like to do one of two things.

Either just put some kind of inspection hatch over each ceiling rose -
something low profile like a metal plate which can have stuff placed on
it
when not being accessed - or bring the wiring up through the floor into
some
kind of junction box so that each light fitting only has two wires and
the
wiring is easily available on the loft floor.

Both solve problem (1) but the junction box is an obstruction/trip hazard
so
although solving (2) it causes other problems.

That is what these are designed for:

http://www.trend-uk.com/en/UK/produc...Routabout.html

Looking at the video the router cuts through the board in several passes.
So what is the difference between the 18mm and 22mm jig?
Or is the only difference in the blanking plates?
Do you need different cutters for 18mm and 22mm?
Hmm..can see a replacement plate but no replacement cutter.
You would think that if the cutter was the difference they would do a kit
with 18mm and 22mm cutters.


Also, the video shows a plastic rim which fits into the routed gap and then
takes the central piece of chipoboard but the pictures show plastic inserts.
Does the full routabout leave the wood, but the mini-routabout use plastic
plugs?
Yes - looks like it.

So it all looks quite good, but if I haven't yet screwed the floor down then
I can try other alternatives.

Such as a dry wall box, perhaps.

Cheers

Dave R

On Tue, 28 Aug 2012 10:17:30 +0100, David WE Roberts wrote:

http://www.trend-uk.com/en/UK/produc...Routabout.html

Ah - yes - forgot about those.
Solves problem (1)

But really designed for solid (chipboard) not T&G (planked) floors. With
T&G I think I'd just have a bit of the boards that will lift out, ie
remove the lower part of the groove(s) for sections between joists.

but not problem (2)

Which I think is more about strain relief rather than a box for the
connections. The only cable that might not be clipped to the joists is
the one dropping into the ceiling rose and that will have slack on it
anyway. So if you change the fitting to one that doesn't need the rose
you don't have to climb into the loft and shift all the junk that is over
the access hole... Meaning that even that cable can be clipped adjacent
to the junction box.

Personally I'd not want anything sticking up, like a blanking plate over
a drylining box.

--
Cheers
Dave.

In article ,
David WE Roberts wrote:
(2) I really, really hate it when the ceiling rose has three or more
sets of wires coming into such a small space. Endless fiddling to get
everything to slide down for access, then slide back up again to refit
the rose. Also doing it perched on a set of steps looking up.

The reason for these loop in etc ceiling roses is they are quick to
install and economical with cable. But you're not forced to use them - you
could do it the old way using junction boxes in a more accessible place.
Or even just one larger box with all the connections in it - if you're not
worried about cable costs or installation time.

But if you wish to provide access to the top of the existing roses before
you've laid the flooring, cut out the size of trap you want, screw and
glue battens to the underneath of the boarding round the outside of the
hole and screw the 'lid' to them.

--
*Parenthetical remarks (however relevant) are (usually) unnecessary *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Tue, 28 Aug 2012 08:40:50 +0100, "David WE Roberts"
wrote:


Either just put some kind of inspection hatch over each ceiling rose -
something low profile like a metal plate which can have stuff placed on it
when not being accessed - or bring the wiring up through the floor into some
kind of junction box so that each light fitting only has two wires and the
wiring is easily available on the loft floor.

http://www.toolstation.com/shop/p36742 and

http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Powe.../sd1400/p98989

In article ,
Peter Parry wrote:
On Tue, 28 Aug 2012 08:40:50 +0100, "David WE Roberts"
wrote:


Either just put some kind of inspection hatch over each ceiling rose -
something low profile like a metal plate which can have stuff placed on
it when not being accessed - or bring the wiring up through the floor
into some kind of junction box so that each light fitting only has two
wires and the wiring is easily available on the loft floor.

http://www.toolstation.com/shop/p36742 and

http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Powe.../sd1400/p98989

But the boarding panels ain't down yet. Is it worth paying out for all
that? I'd just cut out my own traps.

--
*Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder...

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Peter Parry" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 28 Aug 2012 08:40:50 +0100, "David WE Roberts"
wrote:


Either just put some kind of inspection hatch over each ceiling rose -
something low profile like a metal plate which can have stuff placed on it
when not being accessed - or bring the wiring up through the floor into
some
kind of junction box so that each light fitting only has two wires and the
wiring is easily available on the loft floor.

http://www.toolstation.com/shop/p36742 and

http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Powe.../sd1400/p98989


Yeah - not as fancy as the Trend setup, but looks as functional as the mini
version.
Still pondering over the ceiling rose/junction box thing.

--
No plan survives contact with the enemy.
[Not even bunny]

Helmuth von Moltke the Elder

(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

On 28/08/2012 11:19, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
David WE Roberts wrote:
(2) I really, really hate it when the ceiling rose has three or more
sets of wires coming into such a small space. Endless fiddling to get
everything to slide down for access, then slide back up again to refit
the rose. Also doing it perched on a set of steps looking up.

The reason for these loop in etc ceiling roses is they are quick to
install and economical with cable. But you're not forced to use them - you
could do it the old way using junction boxes in a more accessible place.
Or even just one larger box with all the connections in it - if you're not
worried about cable costs or installation time.

We had a house with that: one very large box (about 12" square) in the
loft with lots of connector blocks in it and cables going out to
individual switches and lights.

Colin Bignell

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
ll.co.uk...
On Tue, 28 Aug 2012 10:17:30 +0100, David WE Roberts wrote:

http://www.trend-uk.com/en/UK/produc...Routabout.html

Ah - yes - forgot about those.
Solves problem (1)

But really designed for solid (chipboard) not T&G (planked) floors. With
T&G I think I'd just have a bit of the boards that will lift out, ie
remove the lower part of the groove(s) for sections between joists.

Ah - T&G chipboard loft flooring packs i.e. smaller runs of chipboard which
will go through the loft hatch.
If you take away the T&G I think this compromises some of the structural
strength.
The T&G bit is quite substantial.
I suppose I could interrupt the run at two joists and have a small panel of
chipboard to lift - will have a look at that.
Only need the underside of the groove on one side of the panel removed and
it could well lift easily without losing too much strength.
Drilled/hole sawn access hole is neater, but not as strong.

but not problem (2)

Which I think is more about strain relief rather than a box for the
connections. The only cable that might not be clipped to the joists is
the one dropping into the ceiling rose and that will have slack on it
anyway. So if you change the fitting to one that doesn't need the rose
you don't have to climb into the loft and shift all the junk that is over
the access hole... Meaning that even that cable can be clipped adjacent
to the junction box.

Personally I'd not want anything sticking up, like a blanking plate over
a drylining box.

Not sure I completely follow this bit.
If I need to check or modify the wiring at some future date, whatever system
I use I will have to be able to get at it all.
So AFAICS it is either having everything coming down into the ceiling rose
(and still needing access from above to e.g. add another light) or having a
simple light fitting and some kind of junction box in the loft.
Either way I will need maintenance access at some point from within the
loft.


Cheers


Dave R

--
No plan survives contact with the enemy.
[Not even bunny]

Helmuth von Moltke the Elder

(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Peter Parry wrote:
On Tue, 28 Aug 2012 08:40:50 +0100, "David WE Roberts"
wrote:


Either just put some kind of inspection hatch over each ceiling rose -
something low profile like a metal plate which can have stuff placed on
it when not being accessed - or bring the wiring up through the floor
into some kind of junction box so that each light fitting only has two
wires and the wiring is easily available on the loft floor.

http://www.toolstation.com/shop/p36742 and

http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Powe.../sd1400/p98989

But the boarding panels ain't down yet. Is it worth paying out for all
that? I'd just cut out my own traps.


Well, some of the boarding isn't down, some is down but coming up
temporarily, and at some point there will be the issue of the light fittings
at the front of the house which are boarded over.
I will also (I have just realised) have to sort out ducting for the ceiling
fan(s) in the bathroom coming up through the floor.
Could do cutouts but a hole saw might be easier.

I quite like the flat bit which stops you going too deep :-)

--
No plan survives contact with the enemy.
[Not even bunny]

Helmuth von Moltke the Elder

(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

In article ,
Nightjar wrote:
The reason for these loop in etc ceiling roses is they are quick to
install and economical with cable. But you're not forced to use them -
you could do it the old way using junction boxes in a more accessible
place. Or even just one larger box with all the connections in it - if
you're not worried about cable costs or installation time.

We had a house with that: one very large box (about 12" square) in the
loft with lots of connector blocks in it and cables going out to
individual switches and lights.

Same here - when I wired up this house mumble years ago I fitted 4 circuit
Rotaflex track in both parts of the through lounge. Each of the four
circuits on a dimmer - using a large grid panel. A 12" square adaptable
box was the ideal way - my mate christened it Clapham Junction. So all the
lighting connections are readily accessible. Not that I've ever needed to.

--
*Dance like nobody's watching.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
David WE Roberts wrote:
Ah - T&G chipboard loft flooring packs i.e. smaller runs of chipboard
which will go through the loft hatch. If you take away the T&G I think
this compromises some of the structural strength. The T&G bit is quite
substantial. I suppose I could interrupt the run at two joists and have
a small panel of chipboard to lift - will have a look at that. Only
need the underside of the groove on one side of the panel removed and
it could well lift easily without losing too much strength. Drilled/hole
sawn access hole is neater, but not as strong.

My way of fitting battens to the underside round the outside of the trap
will add back any strength lost. If you use the pivoting jigsaw method and
take care you can make a perfect trap in one go.

--
*Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
David WE Roberts wrote:
Well, some of the boarding isn't down, some is down but coming up
temporarily, and at some point there will be the issue of the light
fittings at the front of the house which are boarded over. I will also
(I have just realised) have to sort out ducting for the ceiling fan(s)
in the bathroom coming up through the floor. Could do cutouts but a hole
saw might be easier.

Just how often do you think you'll need access for 'maintenance'? I
rewired this place some 40 years ago and haven't done any maintenance on
the wiring since. Of course if you decide to alter the lighting - like say
add extra lights or move them - an access trap only over the existing
won't be that much help.

--
*I will always cherish the initial misconceptions I had about you

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

David WE Roberts :
If I need to check or modify the wiring at some future date, whatever
system I use I will have to be able to get at it all.
So AFAICS it is either having everything coming down into the ceiling
rose (and still needing access from above to e.g. add another light) or
having a simple light fitting and some kind of junction box in the
loft.

Can you position the junction box on a wall? Then you wouldn't need
access through the floor.

--
Mike Barnes

"David WE Roberts" wrote in message ...


"Nightjar" wrote in message
...
On 28/08/2012 08:40, David WE Roberts wrote:
Two issues here.

(1) I would like to be able to access the wiring into the ceiling roses
from
above for maintenance, but I also want to floor in the whole loft with
T&G
loft panels. At the moment I can get at most of the wiring because the
last
third of the loft isn't yet floored in, and the area where the cold water
tanks sat is also not floored in so I can slide T&G boards sideways to
get
them out. However when the whole lot is done, the lighting wiring will be
concealed and getting at it could be a major operation.

(2) I really, really hate it when the ceiling rose has three or more sets
of
wires coming into such a small space. Endless fiddling to get everything
to
slide down for access, then slide back up again to refit the rose. Also
doing it perched on a set of steps looking up.

So I would like to do one of two things.

Either just put some kind of inspection hatch over each ceiling rose -
something low profile like a metal plate which can have stuff placed on
it
when not being accessed - or bring the wiring up through the floor into
some
kind of junction box so that each light fitting only has two wires and
the
wiring is easily available on the loft floor.

Both solve problem (1) but the junction box is an obstruction/trip hazard
so
although solving (2) it causes other problems.

That is what these are designed for:

http://www.trend-uk.com/en/UK/produc...Routabout.html

Looking at the video the router cuts through the board in several passes.
So what is the difference between the 18mm and 22mm jig?
Or is the only difference in the blanking plates?
Do you need different cutters for 18mm and 22mm?
Hmm..can see a replacement plate but no replacement cutter.
You would think that if the cutter was the difference they would do a kit
with 18mm and 22mm cutters.


Also, the video shows a plastic rim which fits into the routed gap and then
takes the central piece of chipoboard but the pictures show plastic inserts.
Does the full routabout leave the wood, but the mini-routabout use plastic
plugs?
Yes - looks like it.

So it all looks quite good, but if I haven't yet screwed the floor down then
I can try other alternatives.

Such as a dry wall box, perhaps.

Cheers

Dave R

*******************grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr*** *************
WLM treats this as a different thread.
WM ond OE don't.
Still can't get WLM to put chevrons against a previous post in a reply.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
David WE Roberts wrote:
Well, some of the boarding isn't down, some is down but coming up
temporarily, and at some point there will be the issue of the light
fittings at the front of the house which are boarded over. I will also
(I have just realised) have to sort out ducting for the ceiling fan(s)
in the bathroom coming up through the floor. Could do cutouts but a hole
saw might be easier.

Just how often do you think you'll need access for 'maintenance'? I
rewired this place some 40 years ago and haven't done any maintenance on
the wiring since. Of course if you decide to alter the lighting - like say
add extra lights or move them - an access trap only over the existing
won't be that much help.

Well, if I have an access trap/hole and a means of cutting a small hole
(such as the hole saw or the Trend router fancy whatsit) then I can get at
the existing wiring and also cut a new access hole over the location of the
new light fitting.

There may well not be a single simple answer.

On Tue, 28 Aug 2012 13:11:50 +0100, David WE Roberts wrote:

I suppose I could interrupt the run at two joists and have a small
panel of chipboard to lift - will have a look at that.

That is what I would do, gives you a nice big opening to work through.
The hole saw linked to is only 110mm dia, you try getting a hand through
110mm dia hole to holed a wire or wires in place without considerably
obscuring what you are trying to work on.

Personally I'd not want anything sticking up, like a blanking plate
over a drylining box.

Not sure I completely follow this bit.

I envisaged the drylining box mounted into the floor. The blanking plate
would then project above floor level.

--
Cheers
Dave.

In article ,
David WE Roberts wrote:
Well, if I have an access trap/hole and a means of cutting a small hole
(such as the hole saw or the Trend router fancy whatsit) then I can get
at the existing wiring and also cut a new access hole over the location
of the new light fitting.

Sounds like you're determined to buy some new toys. ;-)

There may well not be a single simple answer.

There never is. Drilling an access hole above when fitting a new extra
light etc doesn't address having joists in the way of the cable runs.

--
*Of course I'm against sin; I'm against anything that I'm too old to enjoy.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article , David WE Roberts wrote:
"David WE Roberts" wrote in message ...

That is what these are designed for:
http://www.trend-uk.com/en/UK/produc...Routabout.html

[...]
Hmm..can see a replacement plate but no replacement cutter.

There are replacement cutters on the "Large Routabout" page.
Based on the linked PDF catalogue page, it looks like the cutter
is the same for both (or same range - options for depth and shank
size).

(Cutters have built-in depth stop is why 18mm and 22mm are different.
If you used 22mm cutter on 18mm and were just careful not to use the
full depth, the rebate would be wrong. If you know for sure you've
got 4mm clear with no cables or pipes....)

Dave Plowman wrote:
The reason for these loop in etc ceiling roses is they are quick to
install and economical with cable. But you're not forced to use them - you
could do it the old way using junction boxes in a more accessible place.

The hassle I've had with people who've tried to replace a ceiling
rose and have been stumped with the multitude of wires sticking
out of the ceiling, then have proceeded to join all the reds together
and all the blacks together and wonder why the fuse keeps blowing,
the light is permamntly on, and the bedroom only comes on when the
bathroom is one. ... I always go out of my way to ensure then every
outlet has only a single cable, unambiguous cable coming to it (or
a single pair for sockets). The extra 25pences of junction boxes is
soooo owrth it.

In the OP's example, what I've done is trim a length of T&G to fit
over one pair of rafters over the ceiling rose/whatever and trim
off the tongue from it and the adjoining board so it just slots
into the space, and put a notch in it to lever it up.

JGH

On Tue, 28 Aug 2012 13:11:50 +0100, David WE Roberts wrote:

I suppose I could interrupt the run at two joists and have a small
panel of chipboard to lift - will have a look at that.

That is what I would do, gives you a nice big opening to work through.
The hole saw linked to is only 110mm dia, you try getting a hand through
110mm dia hole to holed a wire or wires in place without considerably
obscuring what you are trying to work on.

Personally I'd not want anything sticking up, like a blanking plate
over a drylining box.

Not sure I completely follow this bit.

I envisaged the drylining box mounted into the floor. The blanking plate
would then project above floor level.


Having experienced problems accessing wiring buried under loft boarding in
this house, when helping my son board his loft using T&G chipboard "loft
boards" I did cut three holes in the board above tricky bits of wiring. I
then simply screwed a bit of steel sheet over each hole. Nothing fancy other
than rebating one hole so that the steel plate sat flush with the boards as
it was in the way of the slide down loft ladder. The other two were just in
general storage area so I just laid the plate on top with about an inch
overlap and a screw at each corner. I did countersink the screw holes which
my son considered to be OTT, but that's me!

Incidentally! What are those "loft boards" made of? I had sparks coming of
the router cutter when I cut the rebate!

Mike

In article o.uk,
Dave Liquorice wrote:
Personally I'd not want anything sticking up, like a blanking plate
over a drylining box.

Not sure I completely follow this bit.

I envisaged the drylining box mounted into the floor. The blanking plate
would then project above floor level.

Non too strong, either.

--
*The statement below is true.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
wrote:
The reason for these loop in etc ceiling roses is they are quick to
install and economical with cable. But you're not forced to use them -
you could do it the old way using junction boxes in a more accessible
place.

The hassle I've had with people who've tried to replace a ceiling
rose and have been stumped with the multitude of wires sticking
out of the ceiling, then have proceeded to join all the reds together
and all the blacks together and wonder why the fuse keeps blowing,
the light is permamntly on, and the bedroom only comes on when the
bathroom is one. ... I always go out of my way to ensure then every
outlet has only a single cable, unambiguous cable coming to it (or
a single pair for sockets). The extra 25pences of junction boxes is
soooo owrth it.

If someone doesn't know how that type of ceiling rose is wired, they
shouldn't be messing with electricity.

--
*Is it true that cannibals don't eat clowns because they taste funny?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 28/08/2012 08:40, David WE Roberts wrote:


(2) I really, really hate it when the ceiling rose has three or more sets of
wires coming into such a small space. Endless fiddling to get everything to
slide down for access, then slide back up again to refit the rose. Also
doing it perched on a set of steps looking up.


I'm surprised that no-one has mentioned this type of product as a
possible solution to Problem 2:
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products... UbMtAodsTcAEA

This is but one example, but there are lots out there - all with
terminals into which you push a number of bare wires, which it grips and
connects together. Some systems have free-standing multi-way connectors,
and a box to contain them[1]. They should easily fit in the space
between ceiling and boards.

[1] Adam knows all about these - I'm surprised he hasn't commented.
(Possibly too busy giving the ex-GF an extended seeing-to?!)
--
Cheers,
Roger
____________
Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom
checked.

En el artículo o.uk,
Dave Liquorice escribió:

Personally I'd not want anything sticking up, like a blanking plate over
a drylining box.

I've seen switches and sockets with a very low profile (basically just a
metal plate a mm or two thick). One of those in blanking plate form
might be more suitable.

--
(\_/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

"Muddymike" wrote:
[snip]

Incidentally! What are those "loft boards" made of? I had sparks coming
of the router cutter when I cut the rebate!

Floor sweepings. The sparks are from the bits of metal (saw teeth, bolts,
screws, washers, bits of wire etc) that get picked up and dumped into the
hopper alongside the chips from thicknessers, saws etc. it kills router
bits.

"Roger Mills" wrote in message
...
On 28/08/2012 08:40, David WE Roberts wrote:


(2) I really, really hate it when the ceiling rose has three or more sets
of
wires coming into such a small space. Endless fiddling to get everything
to
slide down for access, then slide back up again to refit the rose. Also
doing it perched on a set of steps looking up.


I'm surprised that no-one has mentioned this type of product as a possible
solution to Problem 2:
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products... UbMtAodsTcAEA

This is but one example, but there are lots out there - all with terminals
into which you push a number of bare wires, which it grips and connects
together. Some systems have free-standing multi-way connectors, and a box
to contain them[1]. They should easily fit in the space between ceiling
and boards.

[1] Adam knows all about these - I'm surprised he hasn't commented.
(Possibly too busy giving the ex-GF an extended seeing-to?!)


Thanks - just what I was looking for.
Strange that they don't show up in Screwfix or Toolstation.

--
No plan survives contact with the enemy.
[Not even bunny]

Helmuth von Moltke the Elder

(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

Nightjar wrote:
On 28/08/2012 11:19, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
David WE Roberts wrote:
(2) I really, really hate it when the ceiling rose has three or
more sets of wires coming into such a small space. Endless
fiddling to get everything to slide down for access, then slide
back up again to refit the rose. Also doing it perched on a set
of steps looking up.

The reason for these loop in etc ceiling roses is they are quick to
install and economical with cable. But you're not forced to use
them - you could do it the old way using junction boxes in a more
accessible place. Or even just one larger box with all the
connections in it - if you're not worried about cable costs or
installation time.

We had a house with that: one very large box (about 12" square) in the
loft with lots of connector blocks in it and cables going out to
individual switches and lights.

I think the one that was in my house when I moved in is still under the the
floorboards.Or was is lust a large jb. Eitherway it's still there.
--
Adam

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
wrote:
The reason for these loop in etc ceiling roses is they are quick
to install and economical with cable. But you're not forced to
use them - you could do it the old way using junction boxes in a
more accessible place.

The hassle I've had with people who've tried to replace a ceiling
rose and have been stumped with the multitude of wires sticking
out of the ceiling, then have proceeded to join all the reds
together and all the blacks together and wonder why the fuse keeps
blowing, the light is permamntly on, and the bedroom only comes on
when the bathroom is one. ... I always go out of my way to ensure
then every outlet has only a single cable, unambiguous cable coming
to it (or
a single pair for sockets). The extra 25pences of junction boxes is
soooo owrth it.

If someone doesn't know how that type of ceiling rose is wired, they
shouldn't be messing with electricity.

And I got called to put up a new fitting where the customer was stumped by
the two black singles and the red and earth cable.

--
Adam

Roger Mills wrote:
On 28/08/2012 08:40, David WE Roberts wrote:


(2) I really, really hate it when the ceiling rose has three or
more sets of wires coming into such a small space. Endless fiddling
to get everything to slide down for access, then slide back up
again to refit the rose. Also doing it perched on a set of steps
looking up.

I'm surprised that no-one has mentioned this type of product as a
possible solution to Problem 2:
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products... UbMtAodsTcAEA

This is but one example, but there are lots out there - all with
terminals into which you push a number of bare wires, which it grips
and connects together. Some systems have free-standing multi-way
connectors, and a box to contain them[1]. They should easily fit in
the space between ceiling and boards.

They are brillaint.

[1] Adam knows all about these - I'm surprised he hasn't commented.
(Possibly too busy giving the ex-GF an extended seeing-to?!)

Or at work:-)
--
Adam

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
David WE Roberts wrote:
Well, some of the boarding isn't down, some is down but coming up
temporarily, and at some point there will be the issue of the light
fittings at the front of the house which are boarded over. I will
also (I have just realised) have to sort out ducting for the
ceiling fan(s) in the bathroom coming up through the floor. Could
do cutouts but a hole saw might be easier.

Just how often do you think you'll need access for 'maintenance'? I
rewired this place some 40 years ago and haven't done any maintenance
on the wiring since. Of course if you decide to alter the lighting -
like say add extra lights or move them - an access trap only over the
existing won't be that much help.

That is proof you are not married:-) One of the first jobs I did when I
moved into this place was sink the coax into the wall that was just clipped
down the wall. I made good and redecorated. I sat down to watch TV with the
wife and she said "can I have the TV in that corner" whilst pointing to
another corner of the lounge.


--
Adam

On 28/08/2012 08:40, David WE Roberts wrote:
Two issues here.

(1) I would like to be able to access the wiring into the ceiling roses from
above for maintenance, but I also want to floor in the whole loft with T&G
loft panels. At the moment I can get at most of the wiring because the last
third of the loft isn't yet floored in, and the area where the cold water
tanks sat is also not floored in so I can slide T&G boards sideways to get
them out. However when the whole lot is done, the lighting wiring will be
concealed and getting at it could be a major operation.

A board access hole saw such as described he

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...Under_floo rs

Chops out a ring above your rose, and you repair it with a drop in metal
plate.

(2) I really, really hate it when the ceiling rose has three or more sets of
wires coming into such a small space. Endless fiddling to get everything to
slide down for access, then slide back up again to refit the rose. Also
doing it perched on a set of steps looking up.

So I would like to do one of two things.

Either just put some kind of inspection hatch over each ceiling rose -
something low profile like a metal plate which can have stuff placed on it
when not being accessed - or bring the wiring up through the floor into some
kind of junction box so that each light fitting only has two wires and the
wiring is easily available on the loft floor.

See above, and also look at doing loop in wiring with a JB or wago box.

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?... iring_Options

That way you can just drop a single cable to each rose.

Both solve problem (1) but the junction box is an obstruction/trip hazard so
although solving (2) it causes other problems.

Not if the JB is under the metal plate ;-)

How about fitting a dry wall box into the wooden floor and having some kind
of junction in there, with a blank face plate?

Still a bit or a trip hazard, and the face plates are probably unlikely
to react well to being walked on!

If so, what kind of junction?
Can you get blocks of connectors (something more sophisticated than choc
bloks) which are suitable, or even a proper junction box with strain relief
which will fit in a wall/floor box?

These are ideal for lighting junction wiring:

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_Ind...ago/index.html



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 28/08/2012 13:53, David WE Roberts wrote:

WLM treats this as a different thread.

Its broken

WM ond OE don't.

So are they, just a bit less ;-)

Still can't get WLM to put chevrons against a previous post in a reply.

Try another newsreader...


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 28/08/2012 16:11, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
wrote:
The reason for these loop in etc ceiling roses is they are quick to
install and economical with cable. But you're not forced to use them -
you could do it the old way using junction boxes in a more accessible
place.

The hassle I've had with people who've tried to replace a ceiling
rose and have been stumped with the multitude of wires sticking
out of the ceiling, then have proceeded to join all the reds together
and all the blacks together and wonder why the fuse keeps blowing,
the light is permamntly on, and the bedroom only comes on when the
bathroom is one. ... I always go out of my way to ensure then every
outlet has only a single cable, unambiguous cable coming to it (or
a single pair for sockets). The extra 25pences of junction boxes is
soooo owrth it.

If someone doesn't know how that type of ceiling rose is wired, they
shouldn't be messing with electricity.

The problem is, the job sounds so straightforward in theory, so swmbo is
convinced "he" can manage to swap one light fitting for another, after
all, how difficult could it be? ;-)


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 28/08/2012 13:16, David WE Roberts wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Peter Parry wrote:
On Tue, 28 Aug 2012 08:40:50 +0100, "David WE Roberts"
wrote:


Either just put some kind of inspection hatch over each ceiling rose -
something low profile like a metal plate which can have stuff placed on
it when not being accessed - or bring the wiring up through the floor
into some kind of junction box so that each light fitting only has two
wires and the wiring is easily available on the loft floor.

http://www.toolstation.com/shop/p36742 and

http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Powe.../sd1400/p98989


But the boarding panels ain't down yet. Is it worth paying out for all
that? I'd just cut out my own traps.


Well, some of the boarding isn't down, some is down but coming up
temporarily, and at some point there will be the issue of the light
fittings at the front of the house which are boarded over.
I will also (I have just realised) have to sort out ducting for the
ceiling fan(s) in the bathroom coming up through the floor.
Could do cutouts but a hole saw might be easier.

I quite like the flat bit which stops you going too deep :-)

The flat bit also has teeth to cut a rebate into the top of the board
for the plate to sit in.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Tue, 28 Aug 2012 19:24:22 +0100, John Rumm wrote:

The problem is, the job sounds so straightforward in theory, so swmbo
is convinced "he" can manage to swap one light fitting for another,
after all, how difficult could it be? ;-)

It's not. It just shows how thick the great unwashed really are.

There is a junction box in the loft here, it's *something* to do with the
lighting (ie depower the lighting and it is depowered...). It's a four
way box with at least 5 if not 6 cables into it a couple of which are 3
core and earth. When I was putting down the loft flooring several of
these cables took interesting routes over the top of joists or just
generally curious paths. I simply numbered each cable, and noted to which
terminal the wires in each cable went to. Took the wiring apart, fixed
the floor, put it back together according to my notes. Everything works
as it did, no fusen popen. I still haven't any idea what thoase cables do
other than in the vaugest guessing terms.

So why doesn't the great unwashed when presented by the wires/cables in a
loop thru/switch drop ceiling rose mark 'em and note down which one goes
where it's not difficult, unless you are thick.

--
Cheers
Dave.

Dave Liquorice :
On Tue, 28 Aug 2012 19:24:22 +0100, John Rumm wrote:

The problem is, the job sounds so straightforward in theory, so swmbo
is convinced "he" can manage to swap one light fitting for another,
after all, how difficult could it be? ;-)

It's not. It just shows how thick the great unwashed really are.

There is a junction box in the loft here, it's *something* to do with the
lighting (ie depower the lighting and it is depowered...). It's a four
way box with at least 5 if not 6 cables into it a couple of which are 3
core and earth. When I was putting down the loft flooring several of
these cables took interesting routes over the top of joists or just
generally curious paths. I simply numbered each cable, and noted to which
terminal the wires in each cable went to. Took the wiring apart, fixed
the floor, put it back together according to my notes. Everything works
as it did, no fusen popen. I still haven't any idea what thoase cables do
other than in the vaugest guessing terms.

So why doesn't the great unwashed when presented by the wires/cables in a
loop thru/switch drop ceiling rose mark 'em and note down which one goes
where it's not difficult, unless you are thick.

Not to mention taking a photo first. For me that's now standard
procedure before disconnecting or disassembling anything non-trivial.

--
Mike Barnes

In article ,
Mike Barnes wrote:
So why doesn't the great unwashed when presented by the wires/cables in a
loop thru/switch drop ceiling rose mark 'em and note down which one goes
where it's not difficult, unless you are thick.

Not to mention taking a photo first. For me that's now standard
procedure before disconnecting or disassembling anything non-trivial.

While pics are useful, they don't replace drawing out a simple wiring
diagram. And of course marking the cables so you know which is which after
removing the fitting.

--
*Sorry, I don't date outside my species.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.