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"Dave Plowman (News)" :
In article ,
Mike Barnes wrote:
So why doesn't the great unwashed when presented by the wires/cables in a
loop thru/switch drop ceiling rose mark 'em and note down which one goes
where it's not difficult, unless you are thick.


Not to mention taking a photo first. For me that's now standard
procedure before disconnecting or disassembling anything non-trivial.


While pics are useful, they don't replace drawing out a simple wiring
diagram. And of course marking the cables so you know which is which after
removing the fitting.


Agreed, I didn't mean to suggest not doing any of those things. Apart
from anything else they promote understanding, and taking a picture
doesn't. Pictures are most useful when disassembling something
mechanical.

--
Mike Barnes
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On 2012-08-28, ARWadsworth wrote:

Roger Mills wrote:
On 28/08/2012 08:40, David WE Roberts wrote:


(2) I really, really hate it when the ceiling rose has three or
more sets of wires coming into such a small space. Endless fiddling
to get everything to slide down for access, then slide back up
again to refit the rose. Also doing it perched on a set of steps
looking up.


I'm surprised that no-one has mentioned this type of product as a
possible solution to Problem 2:
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products... UbMtAodsTcAEA

This is but one example, but there are lots out there - all with
terminals into which you push a number of bare wires, which it grips
and connects together. Some systems have free-standing multi-way
connectors, and a box to contain them[1]. They should easily fit in
the space between ceiling and boards.


They are brillaint.



I noticed that while browsing the catalogue recently & this seems like
a good place to mention what I was wondering about.

I guess it's called "Maintenance Free" because it can be buried under
the floor without worrying about future access to check that the screw
terminals are still tight. Is that correct? What kind of terminals
does this box use that are more secure than normal screw terminals?
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On 29/08/2012 09:58, Mike Barnes wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" :
In article ,
Mike Barnes wrote:
So why doesn't the great unwashed when presented by the wires/cables in a
loop thru/switch drop ceiling rose mark 'em and note down which one goes
where it's not difficult, unless you are thick.


Not to mention taking a photo first. For me that's now standard
procedure before disconnecting or disassembling anything non-trivial.


While pics are useful, they don't replace drawing out a simple wiring
diagram. And of course marking the cables so you know which is which after
removing the fitting.


Agreed, I didn't mean to suggest not doing any of those things. Apart
from anything else they promote understanding, and taking a picture
doesn't. Pictures are most useful when disassembling something
mechanical.


Something the common availability of camera phones makes much easier
these days. Less useful in the days of needing to get the roll developed.


--
Cheers,

John.

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On 29/08/2012 13:09, Adam Funk wrote:
On 2012-08-28, ARWadsworth wrote:

Roger Mills wrote:
On 28/08/2012 08:40, David WE Roberts wrote:


(2) I really, really hate it when the ceiling rose has three or
more sets of wires coming into such a small space. Endless fiddling
to get everything to slide down for access, then slide back up
again to refit the rose. Also doing it perched on a set of steps
looking up.

I'm surprised that no-one has mentioned this type of product as a
possible solution to Problem 2:
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products... UbMtAodsTcAEA

This is but one example, but there are lots out there - all with
terminals into which you push a number of bare wires, which it grips
and connects together. Some systems have free-standing multi-way
connectors, and a box to contain them[1]. They should easily fit in
the space between ceiling and boards.


They are brillaint.



I noticed that while browsing the catalogue recently& this seems like
a good place to mention what I was wondering about.

I guess it's called "Maintenance Free" because it can be buried under
the floor without worrying about future access to check that the screw
terminals are still tight. Is that correct? What kind of terminals
does this box use that are more secure than normal screw terminals?


Basically, they're spring-loaded clamps. Some have levers which open the
clamp, and make it easy to insert and remove wires. These are ok for
solid or stranded wire. Others are just two metal strips in the form of
a V, sprung together at the pointy end. Pushing a wire down the middle
separates the strips - which then grip the wire. This type is only
suitable for solid wire, and is more difficult to take apart - but you
can usually remove a wire by twisting and pulling at the same time.
--
Cheers,
Roger
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"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 28/08/2012 08:40, David WE Roberts wrote:
Two issues here.

(1) I would like to be able to access the wiring into the ceiling roses
from
above for maintenance, but I also want to floor in the whole loft with
T&G
loft panels. At the moment I can get at most of the wiring because the
last
third of the loft isn't yet floored in, and the area where the cold water
tanks sat is also not floored in so I can slide T&G boards sideways to
get
them out. However when the whole lot is done, the lighting wiring will be
concealed and getting at it could be a major operation.


A board access hole saw such as described he

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...Under_floo rs

Chops out a ring above your rose, and you repair it with a drop in metal
plate.

(2) I really, really hate it when the ceiling rose has three or more sets
of
wires coming into such a small space. Endless fiddling to get everything
to
slide down for access, then slide back up again to refit the rose. Also
doing it perched on a set of steps looking up.

So I would like to do one of two things.

Either just put some kind of inspection hatch over each ceiling rose -
something low profile like a metal plate which can have stuff placed on
it
when not being accessed - or bring the wiring up through the floor into
some
kind of junction box so that each light fitting only has two wires and
the
wiring is easily available on the loft floor.


See above, and also look at doing loop in wiring with a JB or wago box.

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?... iring_Options

That way you can just drop a single cable to each rose.

Both solve problem (1) but the junction box is an obstruction/trip hazard
so
although solving (2) it causes other problems.


Not if the JB is under the metal plate ;-)

How about fitting a dry wall box into the wooden floor and having some
kind
of junction in there, with a blank face plate?


Still a bit or a trip hazard, and the face plates are probably unlikely to
react well to being walked on!

If so, what kind of junction?
Can you get blocks of connectors (something more sophisticated than choc
bloks) which are suitable, or even a proper junction box with strain
relief
which will fit in a wall/floor box?


These are ideal for lighting junction wiring:

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_Ind...ago/index.html



Lik those Wago things :-)
Thanks again to all who responded.

--
No plan survives contact with the enemy.
[Not even bunny]

Helmuth von Moltke the Elder

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On 2012-08-29, Roger Mills wrote:

On 29/08/2012 13:09, Adam Funk wrote:
Roger Mills wrote:


http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products... UbMtAodsTcAEA

....
I noticed that while browsing the catalogue recently& this seems like
a good place to mention what I was wondering about.

I guess it's called "Maintenance Free" because it can be buried under
the floor without worrying about future access to check that the screw
terminals are still tight. Is that correct? What kind of terminals
does this box use that are more secure than normal screw terminals?


Basically, they're spring-loaded clamps. Some have levers which open the
clamp, and make it easy to insert and remove wires. These are ok for
solid or stranded wire. Others are just two metal strips in the form of
a V, sprung together at the pointy end. Pushing a wire down the middle
separates the strips - which then grip the wire. This type is only
suitable for solid wire, and is more difficult to take apart - but you
can usually remove a wire by twisting and pulling at the same time.


I wondered if they were sprung like that. I guess they are secure
because the cables are clamped in the box itself so the individual
wires can't be pulled loose (unlike a traditional junction box).
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On 30/08/2012 10:30, Adam Funk wrote:
On 2012-08-29, Roger Mills wrote:

On 29/08/2012 13:09, Adam Funk wrote:
Roger Mills wrote:


http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products... UbMtAodsTcAEA

...
I noticed that while browsing the catalogue recently& this seems like
a good place to mention what I was wondering about.

I guess it's called "Maintenance Free" because it can be buried under
the floor without worrying about future access to check that the screw
terminals are still tight. Is that correct? What kind of terminals
does this box use that are more secure than normal screw terminals?


Basically, they're spring-loaded clamps. Some have levers which open the
clamp, and make it easy to insert and remove wires. These are ok for
solid or stranded wire. Others are just two metal strips in the form of
a V, sprung together at the pointy end. Pushing a wire down the middle
separates the strips - which then grip the wire. This type is only
suitable for solid wire, and is more difficult to take apart - but you
can usually remove a wire by twisting and pulling at the same time.


I wondered if they were sprung like that. I guess they are secure
because the cables are clamped in the box itself so the individual
wires can't be pulled loose (unlike a traditional junction box).


Not really. Strain relief is something different. With this sort of
connection, the security of the actual electrical connection is better
than a junction box with screws because of the constant spring pressure.
The screws in a junction box can work loose over time - possibly due to
expansion and contraction - and you might then get arcing and, in
extremis, a fire. That's why anything with screw connections needs to be
'accessible' - whereas these maintenance-free jobbies don't.
--
Cheers,
Roger
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On 2012-08-30, Roger Mills wrote:

On 30/08/2012 10:30, Adam Funk wrote:
On 2012-08-29, Roger Mills wrote:

On 29/08/2012 13:09, Adam Funk wrote:
Roger Mills wrote:


http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products... UbMtAodsTcAEA

...
I noticed that while browsing the catalogue recently& this seems like
a good place to mention what I was wondering about.

I guess it's called "Maintenance Free" because it can be buried under
the floor without worrying about future access to check that the screw
terminals are still tight. Is that correct? What kind of terminals
does this box use that are more secure than normal screw terminals?

Basically, they're spring-loaded clamps. Some have levers which open the
clamp, and make it easy to insert and remove wires. These are ok for
solid or stranded wire. Others are just two metal strips in the form of
a V, sprung together at the pointy end. Pushing a wire down the middle
separates the strips - which then grip the wire. This type is only
suitable for solid wire, and is more difficult to take apart - but you
can usually remove a wire by twisting and pulling at the same time.


I wondered if they were sprung like that. I guess they are secure
because the cables are clamped in the box itself so the individual
wires can't be pulled loose (unlike a traditional junction box).


Not really. Strain relief is something different. With this sort of
connection, the security of the actual electrical connection is better
than a junction box with screws because of the constant spring pressure.
The screws in a junction box can work loose over time - possibly due to
expansion and contraction - and you might then get arcing and, in
extremis, a fire. That's why anything with screw connections needs to be
'accessible' - whereas these maintenance-free jobbies don't.


Sorry, what I wrote was a bit muddled. What I meant was that without
the built-in cable clamps, push-in terminals wouldn't be secure
(because they are subject to pull-out).
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In article ,
Roger Mills wrote:
The screws in a junction box can work loose over time - possibly due to
expansion and contraction - and you might then get arcing and, in
extremis, a fire. That's why anything with screw connections needs to be
'accessible' - whereas these maintenance-free jobbies don't.


I've heard this before but am a bit sceptical. I've never known any
terminal in house wiring properly tightened work loose. Plenty which
aren't properly tightened give trouble, though.

--
*One of us is thinking about sex... OK, it's me.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
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In message , Nightjar
writes
Both solve problem (1) but the junction box is an obstruction/trip hazard so
although solving (2) it causes other problems.


That is what these are designed for:

http://www.trend-uk.com/en/UK/produc...Routabout.html

Colin Bignell

They are the best thing since sliced bread, in fact somewhat better!
--
Bill


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On 30/08/2012 17:34, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In ,
Roger wrote:
The screws in a junction box can work loose over time - possibly due to
expansion and contraction - and you might then get arcing and, in
extremis, a fire. That's why anything with screw connections needs to be
'accessible' - whereas these maintenance-free jobbies don't.


I've heard this before but am a bit sceptical. I've never known any
terminal in house wiring properly tightened work loose. Plenty which
aren't properly tightened give trouble, though.


Well indeed! I've got some screw terminals in inaccessible places -
which I installed long before I became 'enlightened' - and they still
seem to be fine! I was simply following the party line in my previous post.
--
Cheers,
Roger
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On 30/08/2012 20:43, Roger Mills wrote:
On 30/08/2012 17:34, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In ,
Roger wrote:
The screws in a junction box can work loose over time - possibly due to
expansion and contraction - and you might then get arcing and, in
extremis, a fire. That's why anything with screw connections needs to be
'accessible' - whereas these maintenance-free jobbies don't.


I've heard this before but am a bit sceptical. I've never known any
terminal in house wiring properly tightened work loose. Plenty which
aren't properly tightened give trouble, though.


Well indeed! I've got some screw terminals in inaccessible places -
which I installed long before I became 'enlightened' - and they still
seem to be fine! I was simply following the party line in my previous post.


My feeling with screw terminals[1] is that with circuits that are not
routinely loaded to close to full capacity (i.e. most circuits) it is a
bit of a non issue in practice. The screws will slacken with time, but
without significant thermal movement of the wires, it will not have much
effect as long as they don't get so lose as to allow air into the joint
to start tarnishing the copper. On fully loaded circuits then its more
of a problem since there is more routine movement.

[1] Having said that, there are screw terminals and screw terminals -
some get a very much better grip than others. I have also read some
comments on the modern trend for cage terminals (like on modern MCBs)
possibly not performing as well long term.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/
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In article ,
John Rumm wrote:
My feeling with screw terminals[1] is that with circuits that are not
routinely loaded to close to full capacity (i.e. most circuits) it is a
bit of a non issue in practice. The screws will slacken with time, but
without significant thermal movement of the wires, it will not have much
effect as long as they don't get so lose as to allow air into the joint
to start tarnishing the copper. On fully loaded circuits then its more
of a problem since there is more routine movement.


All the connections between my riser through to CU (including meter) are
screw terminals. The loading on those pretty well never approaches the
maximum since I don't use electric heating.

So what is the 'routine maintenance' spoken of? The connections to the
riser have not been touched in the 40 years or so I've been here...

--
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Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
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On 31/08/2012 10:21, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
John Rumm wrote:
My feeling with screw terminals[1] is that with circuits that are not
routinely loaded to close to full capacity (i.e. most circuits) it is a
bit of a non issue in practice. The screws will slacken with time, but
without significant thermal movement of the wires, it will not have much
effect as long as they don't get so lose as to allow air into the joint
to start tarnishing the copper. On fully loaded circuits then its more
of a problem since there is more routine movement.


All the connections between my riser through to CU (including meter) are
screw terminals. The loading on those pretty well never approaches the
maximum since I don't use electric heating.

So what is the 'routine maintenance' spoken of? The connections to the
riser have not been touched in the 40 years or so I've been here...


Checking and tightening if required...

I have come across a few of occasions where it was worthwhile (and
plenty more where it was not).

I was re cabling an immersion heater circuit back to a wylex re-wireable
fuse CU once - it probably had been installed relatively recently (say
within 25 years), and was surprised to find the circuit termination was
surprisingly loose. Checking all the other terminations in the CU
revealed a similar situation where it was easy to tighten all the
connections by a significant amount. This may have just been a
reflection of lack of sufficient tightening when installed. There were
no obvious signs of heating in there - although all lightly loaded
circuits.

Also an immersion heater FCU where terminals had worked loose. That was
showing significant heat damage internally and had hardened the (high
temperature) flex insulation locally. Another similar case with an
electric shower pull switch (which I know had been tightened well on
installation), also showing local heating damage.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
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|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/
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In article ,
John Rumm wrote:
So what is the 'routine maintenance' spoken of? The connections to the
riser have not been touched in the 40 years or so I've been here...


Checking and tightening if required...


I have come across a few of occasions where it was worthwhile (and
plenty more where it was not).


I was re cabling an immersion heater circuit back to a wylex re-wireable
fuse CU once - it probably had been installed relatively recently (say
within 25 years), and was surprised to find the circuit termination was
surprisingly loose. Checking all the other terminations in the CU
revealed a similar situation where it was easy to tighten all the
connections by a significant amount. This may have just been a
reflection of lack of sufficient tightening when installed. There were
no obvious signs of heating in there - although all lightly loaded
circuits.


Oh indeed - I've seen plenty where the screws were never properly
tightened. Just poor workmanship. Or maybe even hoping for a return visit
(paid for) to sort a fault.

But then poorly tightened screws ain't the only thing that poor
workmanship will show on.

--
*Why don't you ever see the headline "Psychic Wins Lottery"?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.


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On 2012-08-31, John Rumm wrote:

My feeling with screw terminals[1] is that with circuits that are not
routinely loaded to close to full capacity (i.e. most circuits) it is a
bit of a non issue in practice. The screws will slacken with time, but
without significant thermal movement of the wires, it will not have much
effect as long as they don't get so lose as to allow air into the joint
to start tarnishing the copper. On fully loaded circuits then its more
of a problem since there is more routine movement.


Coming back to the maintenance-free junction box, though --- I've been
told in this group that foreign connection methods are inferior
because they don't put enough pressure on the wires to make a
gas-tight connection. How can a push-in spring-clip exert enough
pressure to compare with screw terminals?
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"Roger Mills" wrote in message
...
On 30/08/2012 17:34, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In ,
Roger wrote:
The screws in a junction box can work loose over time - possibly due to
expansion and contraction - and you might then get arcing and, in
extremis, a fire. That's why anything with screw connections needs to be
'accessible' - whereas these maintenance-free jobbies don't.


I've heard this before but am a bit sceptical. I've never known any
terminal in house wiring properly tightened work loose. Plenty which
aren't properly tightened give trouble, though.


Well indeed! I've got some screw terminals in inaccessible places - which
I installed long before I became 'enlightened' - and they still seem to be
fine! I was simply following the party line in my previous post.
--



The problem I've seen twice recently is the outside plastic casing around
the post in a junction box fracturing off.
Presumably the brass post was expanded too much by tightening down on the
wires and pushing them sideways in the slot.
I don't know how much this weakens the post - if it relies on the plastic to
stop it expanding with time - but not good anyway.

One was in a junction box I was using.
The other was in a junction box I was removing.

Cheers


Dave R


--
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Mike Tomlinson wrote:
En el artículo
o.uk, Dave
Liquorice escribió:

Personally I'd not want anything sticking up, like a blanking plate
over a drylining box.


I've seen switches and sockets with a very low profile (basically
just a metal plate a mm or two thick). One of those in blanking
plate form might be more suitable.


Today I used a circular dry lining box and a conduit box lid. That was
flush.

--
Adam


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On 28/08/2012 11:19, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
David WE Roberts wrote:
(2) I really, really hate it when the ceiling rose has three or more
sets of wires coming into such a small space. Endless fiddling to get
everything to slide down for access, then slide back up again to refit
the rose. Also doing it perched on a set of steps looking up.


The reason for these loop in etc ceiling roses is they are quick to
install and economical with cable. But you're not forced to use them - you
could do it the old way using junction boxes in a more accessible place.
Or even just one larger box with all the connections in it - if you're not
worried about cable costs or installation time.


Our conservatory has ceiling lights, a pair of spotlights, round-pin
sockets for table lamps (although usually only used for the Christmas
tree and other Christmas lights) and a three-gang lightswitch. Although
the sockets are daisychained, the rest are wired back to a single point
and connected in a 12-way central heating box.

SteveW

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