Tim Lamb wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Tim Lamb wrote
Rod Speed wrote

There are a hell of a lot more oil seed crops than just rape, and
quite a few where the oil is a waste product too like with cotton.

So why do you think cropping is not diverted to produce this *oil*?

Because in the case of cotton, its grown for other reasons,
like for the cotton, so there is no diversion at all when the
oil thats a byproduct is used in cars instead of using diesel.

And in the case of all the others?

There is a vast array of oils that are a waste product like with cotton.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_vegetable_oils

And there is apparently an olive oil lake developing in the EU
with the oil so bad that it isnt viable as food oil anymore too.

Distortion of sensible production by EU agricultural payments?

Nope, thats the result of the lackadaiscal production not producing what the consumer prefers, the higher quality
olive oil that can be eaten.

I know very little about Olives or their oil. It may be you are referring to a production process other than pressing

Nope, that they dont press the olives quickly enough after collection etc.

or that trees have been retained beyond their useful life.

That doesnt happen with olives.

I don't imagine it is just thrown away.

Its basically flogged all over the world with lies about the quality of that oil.

So still not used for fuel.

But obviously can be if there ends up being a lake of oil that isnt
viable to use as food, because its much too old to be viable for that.

The figure that matters is the diesel fuel use in cars in western europe where the govt tax on diesel might
justify the use of grown oil in cars.

There might be space in Australia to grow your own fuel but there certainly is not here.

Thats just plain wrong with europe. Particularly in eastern europe, there is plenty of space to do that.

So what are they currently doing with the land?

Like with all agricultural land, growing what produces
the best return and gambling on the weather etc.

As someone else pointed out, if it was cheaper to run the car on cooking oil, there would quickly be none for
cooking.

Just because someone claims that doesnt make it gospel.

Makes sense to me.

Then you dont have a clue about how agricultural production works.

I think I do:-)

You clearly dont if you cant see the problem with that particular claim.

It is in fact just plain wrong with western europe with eastern europe with plenty of space to grow oil if that was
economically viable.

I am not in Eastern Europe.

Irrelevant to where it can be grown.

If I were, I would grow crops which suited the climate and gave the best return without depleting soil fertility.

And thats true of plenty of oil crops.

I don't think this includes Cotton,

You're wrong on that.

Palm Oil, Olives or continuous Rape.

There are a hell of a lot more crops that are viable for oil there.

Do you have some suggestions?

The other oil crops that grow there fine.

Could you kindly put forward some examples?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_vegetable_oils

And whats sold in western europe doesnt have to come from eastern europe anyway.

True. You suggested the land was available.

I actually said that eastern europe was only one
area where land is available in what you snipped.

I am just trying to establish what information you have to justify the suitability and availability of the land.

Where all these oils are currently grown.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_vegetable_oils

In message , Rod Speed
writes

snip

The figure that matters is the diesel fuel use in cars in
western europe where the govt tax on diesel might
justify the use of grown oil in cars.

There might be space in Australia to grow your own fuel but there
certainly is not here.

Thats just plain wrong with europe. Particularly in eastern
europe, there is plenty of space to do that.

So what are they currently doing with the land?

Like with all agricultural land, growing what produces
the best return and gambling on the weather etc.

As someone else pointed out, if it was cheaper to run the car on
cooking oil, there would quickly be none for
cooking.

Just because someone claims that doesnt make it gospel.

Makes sense to me.

Then you dont have a clue about how agricultural production works.

I think I do:-)

You clearly dont if you cant see the problem with that particular claim.

I am very happy for you to explain where my thinking is wrong.

It is in fact just plain wrong with western europe with eastern
europe with plenty of space to grow oil if that was
economically viable.

I am not in Eastern Europe.

Irrelevant to where it can be grown.

If I were, I would grow crops which suited the climate and gave the
best return without depleting soil fertility.

And thats true of plenty of oil crops.

I don't think this includes Cotton,

You're wrong on that.

Palm Oil, Olives or continuous Rape.

There are a hell of a lot more crops that are viable for oil there.

Do you have some suggestions?

The other oil crops that grow there fine.

Could you kindly put forward some examples?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_vegetable_oils

Right. So which of those do you consider suitable?

And whats sold in western europe doesnt have to come from eastern
europe anyway.

True. You suggested the land was available.

I actually said that eastern europe was only one
area where land is available in what you snipped.


I am just trying to establish what information you have to justify
the suitability and availability of the land.

Where all these oils are currently grown.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_vegetable_oils

So clearly not Eastern Europe in any quantity likely to provide road
fuel?

FYI Unsuccessful trials on growing Soya where carried out in England
some years back.

regards



--
Tim Lamb

"Tim Lamb" wrote in message
...
In message , Tim
Streater writes
In article
,
harry wrote:

I was in B&Q the other day and I came across (4litre in small print
ha ha) plastic cans of paraffin.
I suddenly thought aha, one could use that to eke out the diesel?
But when I divided the cost by four is was the same price as diesel.
So, as we all know, the cost of diesel (road fuel) is mostly tax, they
must be making a hell of a profit on this paraffin.
It was in the gardening bit for greenhouse heaters BTW.

Required for garden weed control flame wands as well.

Turnover will be (comparatively) low for that stuff.

I'm looking forward to the time when agricultural diesel is permitted in
*on road* vehicles:-)

I'm looking forward to the time when all diesel is banned from *on road*
vehicles. Horrible filthy stuff that creates lots of noise pollution as
well.

On 07/04/2012 10:23, Rod Speed wrote:
FFS can't anyone snip?

Like hell it is. Have fun explaining where the wheat is grown, which
just happens to be one of the world's largest wheat exporters.

There is in fact a bigger area suitable for growing oil than in the whole of western europe.


You'll find if you dig around a little that
- Most of the country is too dry for these crops
- Most of the rest is already under agriculture
- Almost all the remainder is monsoon climate.

Or do have another explanation for all the expense of
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowy_Mountains_Scheme and the periodic
wheat harvest failures due to drought?

Andy
--
The wide brown land for me

Tim Lamb wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Tim Lamb wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Tim Lamb wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Tim Lamb wrote
Rod Speed wrote

The figure that matters is the diesel fuel use in cars in western europe where the govt tax on diesel might
justify the use of grown oil in cars.

There might be space in Australia to grow your own fuel but there certainly is not here.

Thats just plain wrong with europe. Particularly in eastern europe, there is plenty of space to do that.

So what are they currently doing with the land?

Like with all agricultural land, growing what produces
the best return and gambling on the weather etc.

As someone else pointed out, if it was cheaper to run the car on cooking oil, there would quickly be none for
cooking.

Just because someone claims that doesnt make it gospel.

Makes sense to me.

Then you dont have a clue about how agricultural production works.

I think I do:-)

You clearly dont if you cant see the problem with that particular claim.

I am very happy for you to explain where my thinking is wrong.

Did that in what you snipped.

It is in fact just plain wrong with western europe with eastern europe with plenty of space to grow oil if that
was economically viable.

I am not in Eastern Europe.

Irrelevant to where it can be grown.

If I were, I would grow crops which suited the climate and gave the best return without depleting soil fertility.

And thats true of plenty of oil crops.

I don't think this includes Cotton,

You're wrong on that.

Palm Oil, Olives or continuous Rape.

There are a hell of a lot more crops that are viable for oil there.

Do you have some suggestions?

The other oil crops that grow there fine.

Could you kindly put forward some examples?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_vegetable_oils

Right. So which of those do you consider suitable?

Most of the ones where the oil is a waste product.

With the others, it depends on where you want to grow them.

Russia and the Ukraine is already by far the main source of sunflower oil,
so it clearly grows in eastern europe fine if thats where you want to grow it.

And whats sold in western europe doesnt have to come from eastern europe anyway.

True. You suggested the land was available.

I actually said that eastern europe was only one
area where land is available in what you snipped.

I am just trying to establish what information you have to justify the suitability and availability of the land.

Where all these oils are currently grown.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_vegetable_oils

So clearly not Eastern Europe in any quantity likely to provide road fuel?

Wrong with sunflower oil most obviously.

And the absolute vast bulk of the oils that are a waste product of other agricultural activity.

FYI Unsuccessful trials on growing Soya where carried out in England some years back.

Pity about all the other oils that grow there fine.

And both of those areas are only a tiny subset of where oil has been
grown succressfully for centurys and for millennia in some cases.

Doctor Drivel wrote
Tim Lamb wrote
Tim Streater wrote
harry wrote

I was in B&Q the other day and I came across (4litre in small
print ha ha) plastic cans of paraffin.

I suddenly thought aha, one could use that to eke out the diesel?
But when I divided the cost by four is was the same price as
diesel. So, as we all know, the cost of diesel (road fuel) is
mostly tax, they must be making a hell of a profit on this
paraffin. It was in the gardening bit for greenhouse heaters BTW.

Required for garden weed control flame wands as well.

Turnover will be (comparatively) low for that stuff.

I'm looking forward to the time when agricultural diesel is permitted in *on road* vehicles:-)

I'm looking forward to the time when all diesel is banned from *on road* vehicles.

Taint gunna happen, essentially because it does provide the best mpg
and is one of the few fuels thats trivially easy to grow and is very easy
to produce from a wide variety of ag waste rather more easily than
alcohol and is one of the easiest fuels to use in unmodified engines.

Horrible filthy stuff that creates lots of noise pollution as well.

Not with the best diesel engines it doesnt.

On Apr 7, 10:23*am, "Rod Speed" wrote:
harry wrote





Rod Speed wrote
harry wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Tim Lamb wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Tim Lamb wrote:
Oil bearing crops produce such a meagre amount of oil/ha
Thats just plain wrong.
Is it?
Yep, the best of them produce very decent yields.
Winter sown Rape yield around 3 tons/ha oil content 10%
Spring sown yield around 1.8 tons/ha and oil content 20%
There are a hell of a lot more oil seed crops than just rape, and
quite a few where the oil is a waste product too like with cotton.
And there is apparently an olive oil lake developing in the EU
with the oil so bad that it isnt viable as food oil anymore too.
and global transport/heating consumption is so huge
That wasnt even being discussed. What was being discussed was the
relatively small market in western europe where the high cost of
diesel due to govt taxes where cookling oil can be a viable
alternative and the silly claim that the price of cooking oil was
deliverably trippled by someone to stop it being used in the
small number of diesel fueled cars.
that Govt. offset targets are only a few %.
Someone else can do the sums:-)
The figure that matters is the diesel fuel use in cars in
western europe where the govt tax on diesel might justify the
use of grown oil in cars.
There might be space in Australia to grow your own fuel but there
certainly is not here.
Thats just plain wrong with europe. Particularly in eastern europe,
there is plenty of space to do that.
As someone else pointed out, if it was cheaper to run the
car on cooking oil, there would quickly be none for cooking.
Just because someone claims that doesnt make it gospel.
It is in fact just plain wrong with western europe with eastern europe
with plenty of space to grow oil if that was economically viable.
Couldn't even be done in Oz.
It has in fact been done here for more than a century now.
Most of it is desert.
Like hell it is. Have fun explaining where the wheat is grown, which
just happens to be one of the world's largest wheat exporters.
You also have to deduct out the fuel needed to grow/transport the stuff, (around 25%)
You dont have to count the fuel used to grow the crop with the oil thats a
byproduct of what the crop is grown for like with cotton etc, and your 25% is
straight from your arse with most oil seed crops, we can tell from the smell.
And we arent even discussing what makes sense environmentally either,
we happen to be discussing the stupid claim that cooking oil is deliberately
priced at 3 times its real price, so that those in western europe wont put it
in their cars because diesel has a very high tax added in western europe.
Most of it is desert or semi-arid.

Like hell it is. Have fun explaining where the wheat is grown, which
just happens to be one of the world's largest wheat exporters.

There is in fact a bigger area suitable for growing oil than in the whole of western europe.

I crossed OZ by bus/train. *I saw mostly desert.

Thats a tiny part of Australia, fool.

Even some existing arable farms had problems with
saline ground water rising and were being abandoned.

**** all of it is in fact being abandoned.

So the desert is getting bigger

**** all of it is getting bigger.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deserts_of_Australia

Doesnt say anything like your mindless silly ****.

You never even travelled in Oz?

Yep, over FAR more of it than you ever have.

AND I can see what the ag production of the country is too.

Nothing much in Oz at all. Boring really. Not worth visiting. You
can see better nearer to the UK. Only thing worth seeing is the
wildlife if you're interested in that sort of thing.

Andy Champ wrote
Rod Speed wrote
harry wrote

Most of it [Australia] is desert or semi-arid.

Like hell it is. Have fun explaining where the wheat is grown, which
just happens to be one of the world's largest wheat exporters.

There is in fact a bigger area suitable for growing oil than in the whole of western europe.

You'll find if you dig around a little that

Dont need to do that, I live there.

- Most of the country is too dry for these crops

Thats just plain wrong.

- Most of the rest is already under agriculture

But like with any other agriculture, what is grown on that varys
with the weather predicted and the price of what is grown,
particularly with annual crops that dont need special machinery.

- Almost all the remainder is monsoon climate.

Where oil seed crops grow fine.

Or do have another explanation for all the expense of
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowy_Mountains_Scheme

Thats both an irrigation system, and provides an immense pumped water
system that allows the coal fired power stations to run at peak efficiency.

And the bulk of the irrigation system was to provide security for the
sort of tree crops that its very undesirable to lose in a drought etc.

And that only provides irrigation water for a quite small part of even
just the agricultural land thats used to grow crops on anyway.

Very little wheat is irrigated wheat.

and the periodic wheat harvest failures due to drought?

That doesnt happen very often at all and since oil can be
grown around the bulk of the world, you get the same
averaging out effect you get with wheat world wide too.

harry wrote:

Nothing much in Oz at all. Boring really. Not worth visiting. You
can see better nearer to the UK. Only thing worth seeing is the
wildlife if you're interested in that sort of thing.

Boing Boing!

--
To people who know nothing, anything is possible.
To people who know too much, it is a sad fact
that they know how little is really possible -
and how hard it is to achieve it.

harry wrote:
On Apr 7, 10:23 am, "Rod Speed" wrote:
harry wrote





Rod Speed wrote
harry wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Tim Lamb wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Tim Lamb wrote:
Oil bearing crops produce such a meagre amount of oil/ha
Thats just plain wrong.
Is it?
Yep, the best of them produce very decent yields.
Winter sown Rape yield around 3 tons/ha oil content 10%
Spring sown yield around 1.8 tons/ha and oil content 20%
There are a hell of a lot more oil seed crops than just rape, and
quite a few where the oil is a waste product too like with
cotton. And there is apparently an olive oil lake developing in
the EU
with the oil so bad that it isnt viable as food oil anymore too.
and global transport/heating consumption is so huge
That wasnt even being discussed. What was being discussed was
the relatively small market in western europe where the high
cost of diesel due to govt taxes where cookling oil can be a
viable alternative and the silly claim that the price of
cooking oil was deliverably trippled by someone to stop it
being used in the small number of diesel fueled cars.
that Govt. offset targets are only a few %.
Someone else can do the sums:-)
The figure that matters is the diesel fuel use in cars in
western europe where the govt tax on diesel might justify the
use of grown oil in cars.
There might be space in Australia to grow your own fuel but
there certainly is not here.
Thats just plain wrong with europe. Particularly in eastern
europe, there is plenty of space to do that.
As someone else pointed out, if it was cheaper to run the
car on cooking oil, there would quickly be none for cooking.
Just because someone claims that doesnt make it gospel.
It is in fact just plain wrong with western europe with eastern
europe with plenty of space to grow oil if that was economically
viable.
Couldn't even be done in Oz.
It has in fact been done here for more than a century now.
Most of it is desert.
Like hell it is. Have fun explaining where the wheat is grown,
which
just happens to be one of the world's largest wheat exporters.
You also have to deduct out the fuel needed to grow/transport the
stuff, (around 25%)
You dont have to count the fuel used to grow the crop with the oil
thats a byproduct of what the crop is grown for like with cotton
etc, and your 25% is straight from your arse with most oil seed
crops, we can tell from the smell. And we arent even discussing
what makes sense environmentally either,
we happen to be discussing the stupid claim that cooking oil is
deliberately priced at 3 times its real price, so that those in
western europe wont put it in their cars because diesel has a very
high tax added in western europe.
Most of it is desert or semi-arid.

Like hell it is. Have fun explaining where the wheat is grown, which
just happens to be one of the world's largest wheat exporters.

There is in fact a bigger area suitable for growing oil than in the
whole of western europe.

I crossed OZ by bus/train. I saw mostly desert.

Thats a tiny part of Australia, fool.

Even some existing arable farms had problems with
saline ground water rising and were being abandoned.

**** all of it is in fact being abandoned.

So the desert is getting bigger

**** all of it is getting bigger.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deserts_of_Australia

Doesnt say anything like your mindless silly ****.

You never even travelled in Oz?

Yep, over FAR more of it than you ever have.

AND I can see what the ag production of the country is too.

Nothing much in Oz at all. Boring really. Not worth visiting.

We feel the same way about you whinging poms.

In message , Rod Speed
writes
Tim Lamb wrote
As someone else pointed out, if it was cheaper to run the car
on cooking oil, there would quickly be none for
cooking.

Just because someone claims that doesnt make it gospel.

Makes sense to me.

Then you dont have a clue about how agricultural production works.

I think I do:-)

You clearly dont if you cant see the problem with that particular claim.

I am very happy for you to explain where my thinking is wrong.

Did that in what you snipped.

Don't think so. Not according to my newsreader. Perhaps you would care
to put your explanation back in?

It is in fact just plain wrong with western europe with eastern
europe with plenty of space to grow oil if that
was economically viable.

I am not in Eastern Europe.

Irrelevant to where it can be grown.

If I were, I would grow crops which suited the climate and gave
the best return without depleting soil fertility.

And thats true of plenty of oil crops.

I don't think this includes Cotton,

You're wrong on that.

Palm Oil, Olives or continuous Rape.

There are a hell of a lot more crops that are viable for oil there.

Do you have some suggestions?

The other oil crops that grow there fine.

Could you kindly put forward some examples?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_vegetable_oils

Right. So which of those do you consider suitable?

Most of the ones where the oil is a waste product.

With the others, it depends on where you want to grow them.

Russia and the Ukraine is already by far the main source of sunflower oil,
so it clearly grows in eastern europe fine if thats where you want to grow it.

Ah! Right, Sunflowers. We are agreed it grows in Russia and the Ukraine.

Now let us look at the yields. 1.8 tons/ha. Oil content is around 40%
for the newer varieties. Can be grown in the UK South of a line from
Norfolk to Dorset. Should suit Australia as it prefers dry sandy soils
with low rainfall.

Now for the arithmetic.... Most arable crops need to be grown as part of
a rotation to reduce the build up of pests and diseases. Let us say you
grow it one year in four. That is 1.8tons x 0.4 /4 = 0.18 tons of
oil/ha.

To keep things simple let us use Australia as the example. 6.15% of the
land area is arable so that is 468,503 sq. km or 46,850,300ha so you
could grow 8,433,054 tons of Sunflower oil each year.

Road Diesel consumption was 7,007,000 last year so whoopee doo. If you
allocate 25% of your entire arable land area you could be self
sufficient in road Diesel. Of course that doesn't help with your
15,000,000 tons of petrol used each year.


And whats sold in western europe doesnt have to come from eastern
europe anyway.

True. You suggested the land was available.

I actually said that eastern europe was only one
area where land is available in what you snipped.

I am just trying to establish what information you have to justify
the suitability and availability of the land.

Where all these oils are currently grown.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_vegetable_oils

So clearly not Eastern Europe in any quantity likely to provide road fuel?

Wrong with sunflower oil most obviously.

And the absolute vast bulk of the oils that are a waste product of
other agricultural activity.

FYI Unsuccessful trials on growing Soya where carried out in England
some years back.

Pity about all the other oils that grow there fine.

Sunflower is one of the highest oil producing plants grown this far
North.



And both of those areas are only a tiny subset of where oil has been
grown succressfully for centurys and for millennia in some cases.

I used Australia in the example above as a relatively underpopulated
region. There is not enough suitable land in the entire world to
displace more than a few % of our current fossil fuel usage.

regards



--
Tim Lamb

"Tim Lamb" wrote in message
...


Now for the arithmetic.... Most arable crops need to be grown as part of a
rotation to reduce the build up of pests and diseases. Let us say you grow
it one year in four. That is 1.8tons x 0.4 /4 = 0.18 tons of oil/ha.

A bit too simple.. you can grow other oil plants in the rotation, like rape.

Tim Lamb wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Tim Lamb wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Tim Lamb wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Tim Lamb wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Tim Lamb wrote

As someone else pointed out, if it was cheaper to run the car on cooking oil, there would quickly be none for
cooking.

Just because someone claims that doesnt make it gospel.

Makes sense to me.

Then you dont have a clue about how agricultural production works.

I think I do:-)

You clearly dont if you cant see the problem with that particular claim.

I am very happy for you to explain where my thinking is wrong.

Did that in what you snipped.

Don't think so.

Fraid so.

Not according to my newsreader.

You must have seen it, you replied to that post and snipped that bit.

Perhaps you would care to put your explanation back in?

There just arent enough cars in britain that are diesel powered to produce a
shortage of cooking oil if some of them started using cooking oil in their cars.

The world production of cooking oil leaves that for dead.

It is in fact just plain wrong with western europe with eastern europe with plenty of space to grow oil if that
was economically viable.

I am not in Eastern Europe.

Irrelevant to where it can be grown.

If I were, I would grow crops which suited the climate and gave the best return without depleting soil
fertility.

And thats true of plenty of oil crops.

I don't think this includes Cotton,

You're wrong on that.

Palm Oil, Olives or continuous Rape.

There are a hell of a lot more crops that are viable for oil there.

Do you have some suggestions?

The other oil crops that grow there fine.

Could you kindly put forward some examples?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_vegetable_oils

Right. So which of those do you consider suitable?

Most of the ones where the oil is a waste product.

With the others, it depends on where you want to grow them.

Russia and the Ukraine is already by far the main source of sunflower oil, so it clearly grows in eastern europe fine
if thats where you want to grow it.

Ah! Right, Sunflowers. We are agreed it grows in Russia and the Ukraine.

So it would grow in eastern europe fine.

Now let us look at the yields. 1.8 tons/ha. Oil content is around 40% for the newer varieties. Can be grown in the UK
South of a line from Norfolk to Dorset. Should suit Australia as it prefers dry sandy soilswith low rainfall.

And in fact quite a bit of it is grown here already and more would
be if western europe stated using it in their cars instead of diesel
because of the very high tax added to diesel in western europe.

Now for the arithmetic....

Dont need to, its already economic right now.

In spades with the oil thats a waste product of hordes of other ag production.

Most arable crops need to be grown as part of a rotation to reduce the build up of pests and diseases.

So you rotate more than just one oil crop if you want to grow oil.

Let us say you grow it one year in four. That is 1.8tons x 0.4 /4 = 0.18 tons of oil/ha.

That calculation is completely bogus. You just rotate various
oil crops, or just rotate it with the other stuff you grow like
wheat etc when you prefer not to grow just oil crops.

And wheat isnt grown like that anyway.

To keep things simple let us use Australia as the example. 6.15% of
the land area is arable so that is 468,503 sq. km or 46,850,300ha so
you could grow 8,433,054 tons of Sunflower oil each year.

That calculation is completely bogus. You can rotate it
with the other stuff like wheat and with other oil crops too.

Road Diesel consumption was 7,007,000 last year

That number is completely bogus too. We were actually discussing
the number of individuals IN BRITAIN, that would choose ot use
cooking oil in their cars and the completely silly claim that the price
of cooking oil in british shops was tripled to stop that happening.

Thats nothing even remotely resembling anything like 7MT of diesel.

so whoopee doo. If you allocate 25% of your entire arable land area you could be self sufficient in road Diesel.

Pity that aint even what was being discussed.

Of course that doesn't help with your 15,000,000 tons of petrol used each year.

We have much better ways of dealing with that, natural gas.

All of the taxis and quite a few of the cars in my town have
being using that in the petrol engines for decades now.

And we produce quite a bit of alcohol for use in petrol too.

And whats sold in western europe doesnt have to come from eastern europe anyway.

True. You suggested the land was available.

I actually said that eastern europe was only one
area where land is available in what you snipped.

I am just trying to establish what information you have to justify the suitability and availability of the land.

Where all these oils are currently grown.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_vegetable_oils

So clearly not Eastern Europe in any quantity likely to provide road fuel?

Wrong with sunflower oil most obviously.

And the absolute vast bulk of the oils that are a waste product of other agricultural activity.

FYI Unsuccessful trials on growing Soya where carried out in England some years back.

Pity about all the other oils that grow there fine.

Sunflower is one of the highest oil producing plants grown this far North.

Sure, but plenty of other oils are available as waste from other ag production.

And the oil doesnt have to be produced in britain anyway.

Most of the current cooking oil used in britain isnt.

Very little of the other edible vegetable oils like olive oil is either.

And both of those areas are only a tiny subset of where oil has been
grown succressfully for centurys and for millennia in some cases.

I used Australia in the example above as a relatively underpopulated region.

Under population is irrelevant. **** all would bother to put cooking
oils in their cars in britain, so its irrelevant where it comes from.

There is not enough suitable land in the entire world to
displace more than a few % of our current fossil fuel usage.

Having fun thrashing that straw man ?

We werent even discussing doing that. JUST what would
happen if SOME IN BRITAIN chose ot put cooking oil in
their diesel cars and whether there is any need to triple the
price of cooking oil so britain doesnt run out of cooking oil
and whether there is plenty of land where more oil can be
grown if a few in britain chose to put it in their diesel cars.

On Apr 7, 7:41*pm, "Rod Speed" wrote:

Horrible filthy stuff that creates lots of noise pollution.

Not with the best diesel engines.

The main problem is that people pay no attention to the valves. They
need de-coking very often compared to a modern petrol engine.

On Apr 5, 8:14*pm, "Rod Speed" wrote:

so the price goes up. *At 1.50 a litre there's no point using it as
fuel, and so there's some left on the shelf to fry our chips instead.

Doesnt explain why that hasnt happened to the price world wide.

They have to erase hundreds of square miles of rain forest to keep up
with the demand. The problem with that is well known:
Until the geography can react by producing drought, the soil is washed
away in the wet season and the land become unproductive.

Fortunately, nobody ever went broke forest stripping.
And there is still some left.

In article
,
Weatherlawyer wrote:
On Apr 7, 7:41 pm, "Rod Speed" wrote:

Horrible filthy stuff that creates lots of noise pollution.

Not with the best diesel engines.

The main problem is that people pay no attention to the valves. They
need de-coking very often compared to a modern petrol engine.

very often? I've done 106k miles and did similar on a previous diesel.
Never had that sort of problem.

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

Weatherlawyer wrote
Rod Speed wrote

Horrible filthy stuff that creates lots of noise pollution.

Not with the best diesel engines.

The main problem is that people pay no attention to the valves. They
need de-coking very often compared to a modern petrol engine.

Dont agree with that with modern high performance diesel car engines.

And thats not noise pollution anyway.

On Apr 5, 9:53*pm, "Rod Speed" wrote:
Tim Lamb wrote

Rod Speed wrote
Theo Markettos wrote
dennis@home wrote
Theo Markettos wrote
I'm sure there must be some kind of law of economics here, that
anything that can be put in a car always ends up the same price as
diesel. *It happened with cooking oil... *it used to be 50p/litre until people caught on about using it for fuel,
now it's 1.40ish a litre.
And there is no duty on that so someone really is profiteering.
Supply and demand. *At 50p a litre, Tesco's stocks would be gone in a flash. The same goes for producers and
wholesalers. *They can't grow it any faster,
They can however grow a lot more of it.
Not really.

Yes, really.

You either displace some other saleable crop

They must have been making money on it when it was sold
at 50p a liter or they wouldnt have bothered growing it.

or knock down more rain forest.

Doesnt happen in the first world.

Oil seed rape is probably only grown once in a five year rotation.

There is a lot more than just that thats used to grow oil.

so the price goes up. *At 1.50 a litre there's no point using it as
fuel, and so there's some left on the shelf to fry our chips instead.
Doesnt explain why that hasnt happened to the price world wide.
Not everybody charges what we do for fuel.

The bulk of europe does. And there hasn't been much rain forest in europe for quite a while now.

We cut all our forests down to make boards for the Trenches in WW 1.
This lead to the creation of the Forestry commission to monoculture
spruce.

WW 2 Produced yet more overdemand, fortunately there had been a world
wide deadly plague so the population was manageable. And allowed the
destruction of all but very few woods.

With the subsequent overproduction of spruce.

Which lead to the infestation of the spruce bark beetle.
So now we are cutting down all the spruce forest we can as soon as is
practicable.
No doubt there is something worse coming along if it isn't already
here by now. (I've been out of touch for decades.)

Meanwhile farmers only grow what they can make a profit on which
because of asset stripped like the Vesty Gang and Tesco Ink., isn't
much.

They can grow soya but not in competition with the gangs that own
places like Haiti.

Weatherlawyer wrote
Rod Speed wrote

so the price goes up. At 1.50 a litre there's no point using it as
fuel, and so there's some left on the shelf to fry our chips instead.

Doesnt explain why that hasnt happened to the price world wide.

They have to erase hundreds of square miles of rain forest to keep up with the demand.

**** all of the cooking oil used in britain comes from recnetly ex rain forest areas.

The problem with that is well known: Until the geography
can react by producing drought, the soil is washed away
in the wet season and the land become unproductive.

Not with where much if any of the cooking oil used in britain comes from.

Fortunately, nobody ever went broke forest stripping.

Some have done in fact.

And there is still some left.

"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...

There just arent enough cars in britain that are diesel powered to produce
a
shortage of cooking oil if some of them started using cooking oil in their
cars.

I get through about 1 litre of cooking oil per year. But use about 1000
litres of diesel.

Other people would have a smaller ratio, but even so I can see the demand
for cooking oil growing by easily 100 times, if everyone who drives a diesel
(40% of us) used it for fuel.

You don't think that would generate a shortage?

--
Bartc

On Sat, 07 Apr 2012 15:21:34 +0100, Andy Champ
wrote:

FFS can't anyone snip?

Like hell it is. Have fun explaining where the wheat is grown, which
just happens to be one of the world's largest wheat exporters.

There is in fact a bigger area suitable for growing oil than in the whole of western europe.


You'll find if you dig around a little that
- Most of the country is too dry for these crops
- Most of the rest is already under agriculture
- Almost all the remainder is monsoon climate.

Or do have another explanation for all the expense of
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowy_Mountains_Scheme and the periodic
wheat harvest failures due to drought?

It doesn't surprise me that Rod is so thick he doesn't even know about
the desert in his own country, let alone the insane economics of fuel
crops.

BartC wrote
Rod Speed wrote

There just arent enough cars in britain that are diesel powered to produce a
shortage of cooking oil if some of them started using cooking oil in their cars.

I get through about 1 litre of cooking oil per year.

And hordes of commercial operations use a hell of a lot more than that.

But use about 1000 litres of diesel.

And **** all who use anything like that will bother with cooking oil from the supermarket instead.

Other people would have a smaller ratio, but even so I can see the demand for cooking oil growing by easily 100 times,
if everyone who drives a diesel (40% of us) used it for fuel.

But everyone who drives a diesel isnt going to bother.

You don't think that would generate a shortage?

Nope, essentially because bugger all will bother to fart around
with oil from the supermarket when its so much more convenient
to just use the bowser at the service station etc instead when you
save **** all like you do currently.

Weatherlawyer wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Tim Lamb wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Theo Markettos wrote
dennis@home wrote
Theo Markettos wrote

I'm sure there must be some kind of law of economics here, that
anything that can be put in a car always ends up the same price
as diesel. It happened with cooking oil... it used to be 50p/litre
until people caught on about using it for fuel, now it's 1.40ish a litre.

And there is no duty on that so someone really is profiteering.

Supply and demand. At 50p a litre, Tesco's stocks would be gone
in a flash. The same goes for producers and wholesalers. They
can't grow it any faster,

They can however grow a lot more of it.

Not really.

Yes, really.

You either displace some other saleable crop

They must have been making money on it when it was sold
at 50p a liter or they wouldnt have bothered growing it.

or knock down more rain forest.

Doesnt happen in the first world.

Oil seed rape is probably only grown once in a five year rotation.

There is a lot more than just that thats used to grow oil.

so the price goes up. At 1.50 a litre there's no point using it as
fuel, and so there's some left on the shelf to fry our chips instead.

Doesnt explain why that hasnt happened to the price world wide.
Not everybody charges what we do for fuel.

The bulk of europe does. And there hasn't been much rain forest in
europe for quite a while now.

We cut all our forests down to make boards for the Trenches in WW 1.

Nope, and those werent rain forests anyway.

This lead to the creation of the Forestry commission to monoculture spruce.

WW 2 Produced yet more overdemand, fortunately there had been
a world wide deadly plague so the population was manageable.
And allowed the destruction of all but very few woods.

That last is just plain wrong.

With the subsequent overproduction of spruce.

Which lead to the infestation of the spruce bark beetle.
So now we are cutting down all the spruce forest we can as soon as is practicable.

Plenty of wood available from other places.

No doubt there is something worse coming along if it isn't already here by now.

Fraid not.

(I've been out of touch for decades.)

Meanwhile farmers only grow what they can make a profit on

Thats wrong too.

which because of asset stripped like the Vesty Gang and Tesco Ink., isn't much.

And that is in spades.

They can grow soya but not in competition with the gangs that own places like Haiti.

Its such a tiny place its completely irrelevant cookig oil wise.

On Apr 6, 2:13*pm, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
Tim Streater wrote:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

brass monkey wrote:
"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...
Tim Streater wrote just the puerile **** thats all can ever
manage when its got done like a ****ing dinner, as it always is.
hahahaha, there'ya go Tim.
LMFAO

well its not even grammatical Australian is it?

Well Rod and harry and dennis manage to waste a lot of each other's
time, so that's a plus.

Did you ever play Ultima Online? its a role playimng internet based
multi-user thing.

I used to sit in a virtual house chatting to people who had wound up
there as well.. practising the art form known as 'provocation' which was
essentially to enrage (through use of a musical instrument) *one monster
outside enough to attack another.

Sitting in a house was good as the downside of this art was that if it
failed they would both attack YOU.

Sadly the game designers made house walls soundproof after a server update.

I cant think why I thought of that...;-)

Who let these evironmental evangelists in here?

I can understand now why the rate of suicide is very high in some
countries when people can get wound up over something that has nothing
to do with any of them.

It reminds me of my brush with a chap called Roger Coppock (or
whatever it was) he was right off his meds. A total whack job.

Over a fraction of carbon dioxide that is just too small a number to
remember.
Can you believe that someone was foaming at the mouth because of their
perception of the damage done to the planet by an increase of a few
parts per million?

How on earth do people get to be like that?
Obviously being born mentally defective helps but even the severely
austistic can learn to reason.

"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...
BartC wrote
Rod Speed wrote

There just arent enough cars in britain that are diesel powered to
produce a
shortage of cooking oil if some of them started using cooking oil in
their cars.

I get through about 1 litre of cooking oil per year.

And hordes of commercial operations use a hell of a lot more than that.

For food products? If ultimately they will be consumed by individuals, the
per capita consumption won't be hugely more than mine. (And anyone getting
through nearly 3 litres a day, the amount I use in my car, will probably be
dead before the year is out.)

But use about 1000 litres of diesel.

And **** all who use anything like that will bother with cooking oil from
the supermarket instead.

Other people would have a smaller ratio, but even so I can see the demand
for cooking oil growing by easily 100 times, if everyone who drives a
diesel (40% of us) used it for fuel.

But everyone who drives a diesel isnt going to bother.

You don't think that would generate a shortage?

Nope, essentially because bugger all will bother to fart around
with oil from the supermarket when its so much more convenient
to just use the bowser at the service station etc instead when you
save **** all like you do currently.

I was talking about if the price was still 50p/litre. And there must be
places where you can buy it in larger quantities (for the commercial use you
mentioned for example).

And all it takes is one person filling his tank with the stuff, to
temporarily clear the shelves of one supermarket. (Someone buying 50 bottles
of cooking oil might be a bit suspicious though.)

It really wouldn't take much to generate a shortage.

--
Bartc

BartC wrote
Rod Speed wrote
BartC wrote
Rod Speed wrote

There just arent enough cars in britain that are diesel powered to produce a
shortage of cooking oil if some of them started using cooking oil in their cars.

I get through about 1 litre of cooking oil per year.

And hordes of commercial operations use a hell of a lot more than that.

For food products?

Yep, and for cooking the food etc.

If ultimately they will be consumed by individuals, the per capita consumption won't be hugely more than mine.

Thats just plain wrong with those that eat a lot of fried food particularly.

(And anyone getting through nearly 3 litres a day, the amount I use in my car, will probably be dead before the year
is out.)

Not if they eat the appropriate oil like olive oil.

But use about 1000 litres of diesel.

I dont use anything like that myself.

And **** all who use anything like that will bother with cooking oil from the supermarket instead.

Other people would have a smaller ratio, but even so I can see the demand for cooking oil growing by easily 100
times, if everyone who drives a diesel (40% of us) used it for fuel.

But everyone who drives a diesel isnt going to bother.

You don't think that would generate a shortage?

Nope, essentially because bugger all will bother to fart around with oil from the supermarket when its so much more
convenient to just use the bowser at the service station etc instead when you save **** all like you do currently.

I was talking about if the price was still 50p/litre.

We didnt in fact see too many who use 1000 liters a
year do that at the supermarket when it was that price.

And there must be places where you can buy it in larger quantities (for the commercial use you mentioned for example).

I didnt mention any commercial use.

And all it takes is one person filling his tank with the stuff, to temporarily clear the shelves of one supermarket.

And we didnt in fact see that that happen when it was 50p/liter.

(Someone buying 50 bottles of cooking oil might be a bit suspicious though.)

Dunno, I did see someone with an entire trolley filled with 20KG
sacks of rice one time. I assumed they were one of the local
chinese restaurants buying up in bulk when the price was right.

It really wouldn't take much to generate a shortage.

And we didnt see that happen when the price was 50p/liter.

I cant see enough would bother myself and there
arent all that many diesel cars around either.

And I dont believe that the supermarkets deliberately
tripled the price of cooking oil to avoid that happening either.

Weatherlawyer wrote
The Natural Philosopher wrote

Did you ever play Ultima Online? its a role playimng internet based
multi-user thing.

I used to sit in a virtual house chatting to people who had wound up
there as well.. practising the art form known as 'provocation' which
was essentially to enrage (through use of a musical instrument) one
monster outside enough to attack another.

Sitting in a house was good as the downside of this art
was that if it failed they would both attack YOU.

Sadly the game designers made house walls soundproof after a server update.

I cant think why I thought of that...;-)

Who let these evironmental evangelists in here?

Same ones that let you in here very likely.

I can understand now why the rate of suicide is very high in some countries

It didnt even get very high in the concentration camps in WW2
where you could grab the electric fence any time you wanted to die.

when people can get wound up over something that has nothing to do with any of them.

It reminds me of my brush with a chap called Roger Coppock
(or whatever it was) he was right off his meds. A total whack job.

Over a fraction of carbon dioxide that is just too small a number to remember.
Can you believe that someone was foaming at the mouth because of their
perception of the damage done to the planet by an increase of a few
parts per million?

How on earth do people get to be like that?

The same way some get obsessed about washing their hands etc.

Obviously being born mentally defective helps but
even the severely austistic can learn to reason.

Some of the worst of the mentally defective cant.

And something like 90% believe in some god or other.

Cant get much more loony than that.

On Apr 7, 11:22*pm, Weatherlawyer wrote:
On Apr 7, 7:41*pm, "Rod Speed" wrote:



Horrible filthy stuff that creates lots of noise pollution.

Not with the best diesel engines.

The main problem is that people pay no attention to the valves. They
need de-coking very often compared to a modern petrol engine.

BS. Smoky diesel engines are
A cold.
B need new injectors.

On Apr 7, 11:59*pm, "BartC" wrote:
"Rod Speed" wrote in message

...

There just arent enough cars in britain that are diesel powered to produce
a
shortage of cooking oil if some of them started using cooking oil in their
cars.

I get through about 1 litre of cooking oil per year. But use about 1000
litres of diesel.

Other people would have a smaller ratio, but even so I can see the demand
for cooking oil growing by easily 100 times, if everyone who drives a diesel
(40% of us) used it for fuel.

You don't think that would generate a shortage?

--
Bartc

We already have a small percentage of boi-diesel in all our diesel in
the UK (5%)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bio_Diesel#Distribution

This is the reason the price went up for cooking oil,supply and
demand.
They pitched the % so the price would rise & stop people from using
the cooking oil.

On Apr 8, 12:15*am, "Rod Speed" wrote:
Weatherlawyer wrote





Rod Speed wrote
Tim Lamb wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Theo Markettos wrote
dennis@home wrote
Theo Markettos wrote
I'm sure there must be some kind of law of economics here, that
anything that can be put in a car always ends up the same price
as diesel. It happened with cooking oil... it used to be 50p/litre
until people caught on about using it for fuel, now it's 1.40ish a litre.
And there is no duty on that so someone really is profiteering.
Supply and demand. At 50p a litre, Tesco's stocks would be gone
in a flash. The same goes for producers and wholesalers. They
can't grow it any faster,
They can however grow a lot more of it.
Not really.
Yes, really.
You either displace some other saleable crop
They must have been making money on it when it was sold
at 50p a liter or they wouldnt have bothered growing it.
or knock down more rain forest.
Doesnt happen in the first world.
Oil seed rape is probably only grown once in a five year rotation.
There is a lot more than just that thats used to grow oil.
so the price goes up. At 1.50 a litre there's no point using it as
fuel, and so there's some left on the shelf to fry our chips instead.
Doesnt explain why that hasnt happened to the price world wide.
Not everybody charges what we do for fuel.
The bulk of europe does. And there hasn't been much rain forest in
europe for quite a while now.
We cut all our forests down to make boards for the Trenches in WW 1.

Nope, and those werent rain forests anyway.

This lead to the creation of the Forestry commission to monoculture spruce.
WW 2 Produced yet more overdemand, fortunately there had been
a world wide deadly plague so the population was manageable.
And allowed the destruction of all but very few woods.

That last is just plain wrong.

With the subsequent overproduction of spruce.
Which lead to the infestation of the spruce bark beetle.
So now we are cutting down all the spruce forest we can as soon as is practicable.

Plenty of wood available from other places.

No doubt there is something worse coming along if it isn't already here by now.

Fraid not.

(I've been out of touch for decades.)
Meanwhile farmers only grow what they can make a profit on

Thats wrong too.

which because of asset stripped like the Vesty Gang and Tesco Ink., isn't much.

And that is in spades.

They can grow soya but not in competition with the gangs that own places like Haiti.

Its such a tiny place its completely irrelevant cookig oil wise.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You ARE an ignorant ****.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempera...l_distribution

There are rain forests outside of the tropics.

harry wrote
BartC wrote
Rod Speed wrote

There just arent enough cars in britain that are diesel powered to produce a
shortage of cooking oil if some of them started using cooking oil in their cars.

I get through about 1 litre of cooking oil per year. But use about
1000 litres of diesel.

Other people would have a smaller ratio, but even so I can see the
demand for cooking oil growing by easily 100 times, if everyone who
drives a diesel (40% of us) used it for fuel.

You don't think that would generate a shortage?

We already have a small percentage of boi-diesel in all our diesel in the UK (5%)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bio_Diesel#Distribution

So much for the claim that that would produce a shortage of cooking oil.

This is the reason the price went up for cooking oil,supply and demand.

Have fun explaining why the world price hasnt.
http://www.indexmundi.com/commoditie...oil&months=360

They pitched the % so the price would rise & stop people from using the cooking oil.

Completely off with the ****ing fairys, as always,.

harry wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Weatherlawyer wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Tim Lamb wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Theo Markettos wrote
dennis@home wrote
Theo Markettos wrote

I'm sure there must be some kind of law of economics here,
that anything that can be put in a car always ends up the same
price as diesel. It happened with cooking oil... it used to be 50p/litre
until people caught on about using it for fuel, now it's 1.40ish a litre.

And there is no duty on that so someone really is profiteering.

Supply and demand. At 50p a litre, Tesco's stocks would be gone
in a flash. The same goes for producers and wholesalers. They
can't grow it any faster,

They can however grow a lot more of it.

Not really.

Yes, really.

You either displace some other saleable crop

They must have been making money on it when it was sold
at 50p a liter or they wouldnt have bothered growing it.

or knock down more rain forest.

Doesnt happen in the first world.

Oil seed rape is probably only grown once in a five year rotation.

There is a lot more than just that thats used to grow oil.

so the price goes up. At 1.50 a litre there's no point using it as
fuel, and so there's some left on the shelf to fry our chips instead.

Doesnt explain why that hasnt happened to the price world wide.

Not everybody charges what we do for fuel.

The bulk of europe does. And there hasn't been
much rain forest in europe for quite a while now.

We cut all our forests down to make boards for the Trenches in WW 1.

Nope, and those werent rain forests anyway.

This lead to the creation of the Forestry commission to monoculture
spruce. WW 2 Produced yet more overdemand, fortunately there had
been a world wide deadly plague so the population was manageable.
And allowed the destruction of all but very few woods.

That last is just plain wrong.

With the subsequent overproduction of spruce.

Which lead to the infestation of the spruce bark beetle.

So now we are cutting down all the spruce forest we can as soon as is practicable.

Plenty of wood available from other places.

No doubt there is something worse coming along if it isn't already here by now.

Fraid not.

(I've been out of touch for decades.)
Meanwhile farmers only grow what they can make a profit on

Thats wrong too.

which because of asset stripped like the Vesty Gang and Tesco Ink.,

isn't much.

And that is in spades.

They can grow soya but not in competition with the gangs that own places like Haiti.

Its such a tiny place its completely irrelevant cookig oil wise.

You ARE an ignorant ****.

Wota stunning line in rational argument you have there, fart.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempera...l_distribution

Doesnt say anything useful what so ever about that stuff above.

There are rain forests outside of the tropics.

But not one in BRITAIN, stupid.

dennis@home wrote:


"Tim Lamb" wrote in message
...


Now for the arithmetic.... Most arable crops need to be grown as part
of a rotation to reduce the build up of pests and diseases. Let us say
you grow it one year in four. That is 1.8tons x 0.4 /4 = 0.18 tons of
oil/ha.

A bit too simple.. you can grow other oil plants in the rotation, like
rape.

No dennis, you cant. Not to go up on yield significantly anyway.

Like solar panels plants need light.

And like solar panels that means they do best in summer.

At our latitudes the best you will ever manage is about 3 crops in two
years which is not enough to make any significant difference

And to do even that needs a lot of rain and added fertiliser. Which uses
oil to make and diesel to spread.


But carry on with your fancy qualitative ideas. It must be blissful to
be so ignorant of mathematics that you still believe in homeopathy.






--
To people who know nothing, anything is possible.
To people who know too much, it is a sad fact
that they know how little is really possible -
and how hard it is to achieve it.

Weatherlawyer wrote:
On Apr 5, 9:53 pm, "Rod Speed" wrote:

We cut all our forests down to make boards for the Trenches in WW 1.

Or was it to make pitprops for coalminers during WWII? Or was it to
build the original Navy?

Every time someone tells me we cut all the woods down I have to pinch
myself tp remember that there are more trees now then for the last 5-600
years in most arable areas.

This lead to the creation of the Forestry commission to monoculture
spruce.

WW 2 Produced yet more overdemand, fortunately there had been a world
wide deadly plague so the population was manageable. And allowed the
destruction of all but very few woods.

With the subsequent overproduction of spruce.

Which lead to the infestation of the spruce bark beetle.
So now we are cutting down all the spruce forest we can as soon as is
practicable.
No doubt there is something worse coming along if it isn't already
here by now. (I've been out of touch for decades.)

Meanwhile farmers only grow what they can make a profit on which
because of asset stripped like the Vesty Gang and Tesco Ink., isn't
much.

They can grow soya but not in competition with the gangs that own
places like Haiti.





--
To people who know nothing, anything is possible.
To people who know too much, it is a sad fact
that they know how little is really possible -
and how hard it is to achieve it.

Weatherlawyer wrote:
On Apr 6, 2:13 pm, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
Tim Streater wrote:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
brass monkey wrote:
"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...
Tim Streater wrote just the puerile **** thats all can ever
manage when its got done like a ****ing dinner, as it always is.
hahahaha, there'ya go Tim.
LMFAO
well its not even grammatical Australian is it?
Well Rod and harry and dennis manage to waste a lot of each other's
time, so that's a plus.
Did you ever play Ultima Online? its a role playimng internet based
multi-user thing.

I used to sit in a virtual house chatting to people who had wound up
there as well.. practising the art form known as 'provocation' which was
essentially to enrage (through use of a musical instrument) one monster
outside enough to attack another.

Sitting in a house was good as the downside of this art was that if it
failed they would both attack YOU.

Sadly the game designers made house walls soundproof after a server update.

I cant think why I thought of that...;-)

Who let these evironmental evangelists in here?

I can understand now why the rate of suicide is very high in some
countries when people can get wound up over something that has nothing
to do with any of them.

It reminds me of my brush with a chap called Roger Coppock (or
whatever it was) he was right off his meds. A total whack job.

Over a fraction of carbon dioxide that is just too small a number to
remember.
Can you believe that someone was foaming at the mouth because of their
perception of the damage done to the planet by an increase of a few
parts per million?

How on earth do people get to be like that?
Obviously being born mentally defective helps but even the severely
austistic can learn to reason.


It's the CredoLibido. The lust to believe in something no matter how
completely idiotic without which weak people disintegrate completely.



--
To people who know nothing, anything is possible.
To people who know too much, it is a sad fact
that they know how little is really possible -
and how hard it is to achieve it.

In message , The Natural Philosopher
writes
dennis@home wrote:
"Tim Lamb" wrote in message
. ..

Now for the arithmetic.... Most arable crops need to be grown as
part of a rotation to reduce the build up of pests and diseases. Let
us say you grow it one year in four. That is 1.8tons x 0.4 /4 = 0.18
tons of oil/ha.
A bit too simple.. you can grow other oil plants in the rotation,
like rape.

No dennis, you cant. Not to go up on yield significantly anyway.

Like solar panels plants need light.

And like solar panels that means they do best in summer.

At our latitudes the best you will ever manage is about 3 crops in two
years which is not enough to make any significant difference

And to do even that needs a lot of rain and added fertiliser. Which
uses oil to make and diesel to spread.

I think Dennis probably meant you could grow other oil seeds to shorten
the rotation.

In practice, oil seeds are grown to provide a break in cereal cropping
and not because they are hugely profitable themselves. I have never
heard of anyone attempting continuous rape or even a sunflower
succession.

Nobody has yet mentioned Lupins. The Russians developed a white flowered
variety which is an annual but I don't know of anyone growing it here.

While wheat is so valuable, nobody is going to **** about with niche
crops:-)

regards


--
Tim Lamb

On 08/04/2012 16:13, Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , The Natural Philosopher
writes
dennis@home wrote:
"Tim Lamb" wrote in message
...

Now for the arithmetic.... Most arable crops need to be grown as
part of a rotation to reduce the build up of pests and diseases. Let
us say you grow it one year in four. That is 1.8tons x 0.4 /4 = 0.18
tons of oil/ha.
A bit too simple.. you can grow other oil plants in the rotation,
like rape.

No dennis, you cant. Not to go up on yield significantly anyway.

Like solar panels plants need light.

And like solar panels that means they do best in summer.

At our latitudes the best you will ever manage is about 3 crops in two
years which is not enough to make any significant difference

And to do even that needs a lot of rain and added fertiliser. Which
uses oil to make and diesel to spread.

I think Dennis probably meant you could grow other oil seeds to shorten
the rotation.

In practice, oil seeds are grown to provide a break in cereal cropping
and not because they are hugely profitable themselves. I have never
heard of anyone attempting continuous rape or even a sunflower succession.

I was always convinced that the stuff was grown mainly to annoy walkers
being tall sticky smelly stuff that makes people sneeze. That or it was
designed as an EEC subsidy crop that can be easily checked by satellite
surveillance (it is coming into dayglow yellow flower here about now).

There are volunteers in all the hedgerows and doubtless RoundupReady
wild brassicas arising from hybridisation too.

Nobody has yet mentioned Lupins. The Russians developed a white flowered
variety which is an annual but I don't know of anyone growing it here.

While wheat is so valuable, nobody is going to **** about with niche
crops:-)

Wheat is always going to be valuable. Even more so if one of the high
productivity monoculture prairie varieties succumbs to a rust one year.
It isn't really a question of if this happens so much as when...

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

In message , Martin Brown
writes
On 08/04/2012 16:13, Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , The Natural Philosopher
writes
dennis@home wrote:
"Tim Lamb" wrote in message
...

Now for the arithmetic.... Most arable crops need to be grown as
part of a rotation to reduce the build up of pests and diseases. Let
us say you grow it one year in four. That is 1.8tons x 0.4 /4 = 0.18
tons of oil/ha.
A bit too simple.. you can grow other oil plants in the rotation,
like rape.

No dennis, you cant. Not to go up on yield significantly anyway.

Like solar panels plants need light.

And like solar panels that means they do best in summer.

At our latitudes the best you will ever manage is about 3 crops in two
years which is not enough to make any significant difference

And to do even that needs a lot of rain and added fertiliser. Which
uses oil to make and diesel to spread.

I think Dennis probably meant you could grow other oil seeds to shorten
the rotation.

In practice, oil seeds are grown to provide a break in cereal cropping
and not because they are hugely profitable themselves. I have never
heard of anyone attempting continuous rape or even a sunflower succession.

I was always convinced that the stuff was grown mainly to annoy walkers
being tall sticky smelly stuff that makes people sneeze. That or it was
designed as an EEC subsidy crop that can be easily checked by satellite
surveillance (it is coming into dayglow yellow flower here about now).

There are volunteers in all the hedgerows and doubtless RoundupReady
wild brassicas arising from hybridisation too.

Might be Charlock? Apart from the monitored trial plots, I don't think
anyone has been allowed to grow the GM version in Europe.

Nobody has yet mentioned Lupins. The Russians developed a white flowered
variety which is an annual but I don't know of anyone growing it here.

While wheat is so valuable, nobody is going to **** about with niche
crops:-)

Wheat is always going to be valuable. Even more so if one of the high
productivity monoculture prairie varieties succumbs to a rust one year.
It isn't really a question of if this happens so much as when...

Each year the seedsmen bring out new varieties which have their own
yield/disease resistance/standing power/earliness/combinability. etc.
factors to consider.

I sold the land and stopped growing cereals about 2 years before wheat
prices took off:-(

regards


--
Tim Lamb

On Apr 8, 4:13*pm, Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , The Natural Philosopher
writes





dennis@home wrote:
* "Tim Lamb" wrote in message
. ..

Now for the arithmetic.... Most arable crops need to be grown as
part *of a rotation to reduce the build up of pests and diseases. Let
us say *you grow it one year in four. That is 1.8tons x 0.4 /4 = 0..18
tons of *oil/ha.
*A bit too simple.. you can grow other oil plants in the rotation,
like rape.

No *dennis, you cant. Not to go up on yield significantly anyway.

Like solar panels plants need light.

And like solar panels that means they do best in summer.

At our latitudes the best you will ever manage is about 3 crops in two
years which is not enough to make any significant difference

And to do even that needs a lot of rain and added fertiliser. Which
uses oil to make and diesel to spread.

I think Dennis probably meant you could grow other oil seeds to shorten
the rotation.

In practice, oil seeds are grown to provide a break in cereal cropping
and not because they are hugely profitable themselves. I have never
heard of anyone attempting continuous rape or even a sunflower
succession.

Nobody has yet mentioned Lupins. The Russians developed a white flowered
variety which is an annual but I don't know of anyone growing it here.

While wheat is so valuable, nobody is going to **** about with niche
crops:-)

regards

--
Tim Lamb- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Apparently they are lookingat algae for bio-fuel.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biofuel_from_algae

On 08/04/2012 00:02, wrote:
It doesn't surprise me that Rod is so thick he doesn't even know about
the desert in his own country, let alone the insane economics of fuel
crops.

I've given up on him. Worse than Denis.

Andy