Hi all,
I installed a remote controlled automatic sliding gate last year which has a
240v output feed for a courtesy light which is latched on for approx 15
minutes after operation of the gate, either closing or opening.
I have bought myself a couple of bulkhead lights to connect up to this but
the missus wants them wired up so that they only operate during the hours of
darkness.
Can anyone please give me some advice as to the best possible way to do
this.
Thanks for any input,

Franko.

On Tue, 16 Oct 2007 16:16:38 +0100 someone who may be "Franko"
wrote this:-

Hi all,
I installed a remote controlled automatic sliding gate last year which has a
240v output feed for a courtesy light which is latched on for approx 15
minutes after operation of the gate, either closing or opening.
I have bought myself a couple of bulkhead lights to connect up to this but
the missus wants them wired up so that they only operate during the hours of
darkness.
Can anyone please give me some advice as to the best possible way to do
this.

Connect the switched live for the courtesy light to a photocell, a
variety are available from the usual suppliers. Connect the output
of this to the lights.

You will need to work out what additional connections are needed for
your particular photocell. Certainly neutral and earth, but you may
also need a permanent live to the photocell.

Alternatively, bulkhead lights with built-in photocells are
available. These are wired up in the obvious way, the output of the
courtesy light is connected directly to the bulkhead lights.



--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On 16/10/2007 16:16, Franko wrote:

Hi all,
I installed a remote controlled automatic sliding gate last year which has a
240v output feed for a courtesy light which is latched on for approx 15
minutes after operation of the gate, either closing or opening.
I have bought myself a couple of bulkhead lights to connect up to this but
the missus wants them wired up so that they only operate during the hours of
darkness.

take the courtesy light output of the gate controller and feed it to a
dusk sensor, e.g.
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/ERPEC1000.html
then run the light(s) from that

"Andy Burns" wrote in message
...
On 16/10/2007 16:16, Franko wrote:

Hi all,
I installed a remote controlled automatic sliding gate last year which
has a 240v output feed for a courtesy light which is latched on for
approx 15 minutes after operation of the gate, either closing or opening.
I have bought myself a couple of bulkhead lights to connect up to this
but the missus wants them wired up so that they only operate during the
hours of darkness.

take the courtesy light output of the gate controller and feed it to a
dusk sensor, e.g.
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/ERPEC1000.html
then run the light(s) from that


Thanks for the replies but the line in the description of this sensor
"Pre-calibrated to allow for a 10 minute warming up period for sodium or
mercury lighting" leads me to believe that it wouldn't work quickly enough
to switch on the bulkhead lamps immediately the feed becomes live ...or am I
missing some point ?
Cheers,
Franko.

On 16/10/2007 19:25, Franko wrote:

Thanks for the replies but the line in the description of this sensor
"Pre-calibrated to allow for a 10 minute warming up period for sodium or
mercury lighting" leads me to believe that it wouldn't work quickly enough
to switch on the bulkhead lamps immediately the feed becomes live

plenty more to choose from if not sure

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_Ind...s_1/index.html

"Andy Burns" wrote in message
...
On 16/10/2007 19:25, Franko wrote:

Thanks for the replies but the line in the description of this sensor
"Pre-calibrated to allow for a 10 minute warming up period for sodium or
mercury lighting" leads me to believe that it wouldn't work quickly
enough to switch on the bulkhead lamps immediately the feed becomes live

plenty more to choose from if not sure

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_Ind...s_1/index.html

Thanks Andy,
as I have never used standalone sensors before, I'm a bit flummoxed - do you
think that any of these would be more suitable than the other for my
application, i.e. instant power to my lights during the hours of darkness ?
Cheers.

On 16/10/2007 19:59, Franko wrote:

as I have never used standalone sensors before, I'm a bit flummoxed - do you
think that any of these would be more suitable than the other for my
application, i.e. instant power to my lights during the hours of darkness ?

the instruction sheets for them are downloadable, I'd go for the
"dumbest" one avalable, I notice that some of them need to stay on for a
a full night's cycle to "gauge" the darkness levels when they are first
reset, you don't want one that thinks it's been reset everytime you
power it up by opening the gate, I've only used a combined PIR/dusk
sensor, but that's generally left powered on ...

"Owain" wrote in message
...
Andy Burns wrote:
the instruction sheets for them are downloadable, I'd go for the
"dumbest" one avalable, I notice that some of them need to stay on for a
a full night's cycle to "gauge" the darkness levels when they are first
reset, you don't want one that thinks it's been reset everytime you power
it up by opening the gate, I've only used a combined PIR/dusk sensor, but
that's generally left powered on ...

I think simplest way is to take a permanent live to a photocell, and use
the switched output from the photocell through a relay contact to the
lights. The relay coil operated by the switched output from the gates.

Owain

I think I can see what you mean in theory Owain but do you mean a seperate
relay switched by the photocell or a relay built into the photocell ?
Please excuse my ignorance on this matter and could you explain in a little
more detail,
thanks,
Franko

Franko wrote:

Thanks for the replies but the line in the description of this sensor
"Pre-calibrated to allow for a 10 minute warming up period for sodium or
mercury lighting" leads me to believe that it wouldn't work quickly enough
to switch on the bulkhead lamps immediately the feed becomes live ...or am I
missing some point ?

I think that simply means it will switch on 10 mins sooner than it
otherwise would based on detection of dusk alone. That way discharge
lamps have time to get up to brightness before they are actually needed.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
Franko wrote:

Thanks for the replies but the line in the description of this sensor
"Pre-calibrated to allow for a 10 minute warming up period for sodium or
mercury lighting" leads me to believe that it wouldn't work quickly
enough to switch on the bulkhead lamps immediately the feed becomes live
...or am I missing some point ?

I think that simply means it will switch on 10 mins sooner than it
otherwise would based on detection of dusk alone. That way discharge lamps
have time to get up to brightness before they are actually needed.

--
Cheers,

John.

Ah! Thanks for that John.

"Owain" wrote in message
...
Franko wrote:
I think simplest way is to take a permanent live to a photocell, and use
the switched output from the photocell through a relay contact to the
lights. The relay coil operated by the switched output from the gates.
I think I can see what you mean in theory Owain but do you mean a
seperate relay switched by the photocell or a relay built into the
photocell ?

A separate relay. It sounds as though most photocells need a permanent
live to prevent them re-setting every time. The relay coil needs to be
energised by the gate so it isn't held on for long periods.

Please excuse my ignorance on this matter and could you explain in a
little more detail,


SL = switched live on photocell


Permanent L -------------- L (PHOTO) Relay
(CELL ) /
Permanent N ----------|--- N ( ) /
| ( ) SL -----0 0---|
| |
|-------(LIGHTS)---------------|



relay coil
SL from Gate ---------------------------------0000---|
|
N from Gate ----------------------------------------|


This has the additional advantage that the lights do not have to be
powered by the same circuit as the electric gates.

Owain


Thanks for going to the trouble of explaining it in more detail Owain -
still looks a little complicated for my small brain to accomplish, I was
hoping for a sort of one-box solution but it looks like I'll have to make a
bit more effort.
Thanks again,

Franko.

Franko wrote:
Hi all,
I installed a remote controlled automatic sliding gate last year which has a
240v output feed for a courtesy light which is latched on for approx 15
minutes after operation of the gate, either closing or opening.
I have bought myself a couple of bulkhead lights to connect up to this but
the missus wants them wired up so that they only operate during the hours of
darkness.
Can anyone please give me some advice as to the best possible way to do
this.
Thanks for any input,

Franko.



Listen to Owain, he's got the best solution. I agree that for best
results, the dusk/dawn sensor needs to be permanently powered.

Or, you could hack the gate controller box. If the gate controller box
has a relay for the courtesy light, then just feed this relay from the
switched live on a dusk/dawn sensor and connect your courtesy light as
normal.

"Rumble" wrote in message
...
Franko wrote:
Hi all,
I installed a remote controlled automatic sliding gate last year which
has a 240v output feed for a courtesy light which is latched on for
approx 15 minutes after operation of the gate, either closing or opening.
I have bought myself a couple of bulkhead lights to connect up to this
but the missus wants them wired up so that they only operate during the
hours of darkness.
Can anyone please give me some advice as to the best possible way to do
this.
Thanks for any input,

Franko.



Listen to Owain, he's got the best solution. I agree that for best
results, the dusk/dawn sensor needs to be permanently powered.

Or, you could hack the gate controller box. If the gate controller box
has a relay for the courtesy light, then just feed this relay from the
switched live on a dusk/dawn sensor and connect your courtesy light as
normal.

Cheers Rumble, this is all going a bit over my head now with talk of hacking
the relay in the controller box, it was hard enough just getting the gate
motor set up with the limited space for wiring and the very poor instruction
manual ..... I think it all worked by luck in the end - the wiring diagram
is even worse but I think I may have a pdf of it on my pc at home so I'll
try to post an image somewhere when I get home and hopefully some kind
person can identify if this idea is workable.
ps. I may sound like a numbskull and some of you may be wondering if I
should be attempting something I have no knowledge about but I am very
careful around electricity and will not attempt it unless I understand the
logic behind it.
Thanks for everyones patience,
Franko.

Franko wrote:
"Rumble" wrote in message
...
Franko wrote:
Hi all,
I installed a remote controlled automatic sliding gate last year which
has a 240v output feed for a courtesy light which is latched on for
approx 15 minutes after operation of the gate, either closing or opening.
I have bought myself a couple of bulkhead lights to connect up to this
but the missus wants them wired up so that they only operate during the
hours of darkness.
Can anyone please give me some advice as to the best possible way to do
this.
Thanks for any input,

Franko.



Listen to Owain, he's got the best solution. I agree that for best
results, the dusk/dawn sensor needs to be permanently powered.

Or, you could hack the gate controller box. If the gate controller box
has a relay for the courtesy light, then just feed this relay from the
switched live on a dusk/dawn sensor and connect your courtesy light as
normal.

Cheers Rumble, this is all going a bit over my head now with talk of hacking
the relay in the controller box, it was hard enough just getting the gate
motor set up with the limited space for wiring and the very poor instruction
manual ..... I think it all worked by luck in the end - the wiring diagram
is even worse but I think I may have a pdf of it on my pc at home so I'll
try to post an image somewhere when I get home and hopefully some kind
person can identify if this idea is workable.
ps. I may sound like a numbskull and some of you may be wondering if I
should be attempting something I have no knowledge about but I am very
careful around electricity and will not attempt it unless I understand the
logic behind it.
Thanks for everyones patience,
Franko.


By all means put the wiring diagram up and we'll see what we can come up
with.

"Rumble" wrote in message
...
Franko wrote:
"Rumble" wrote in message
...
Franko wrote:
Hi all,
I installed a remote controlled automatic sliding gate last year which
has a 240v output feed for a courtesy light which is latched on for
approx 15 minutes after operation of the gate, either closing or
opening.
I have bought myself a couple of bulkhead lights to connect up to this
but the missus wants them wired up so that they only operate during the
hours of darkness.
Can anyone please give me some advice as to the best possible way to do
this.
Thanks for any input,

Franko.



Listen to Owain, he's got the best solution. I agree that for best
results, the dusk/dawn sensor needs to be permanently powered.

Or, you could hack the gate controller box. If the gate controller box
has a relay for the courtesy light, then just feed this relay from the
switched live on a dusk/dawn sensor and connect your courtesy light as
normal.

Cheers Rumble, this is all going a bit over my head now with talk of
hacking the relay in the controller box, it was hard enough just getting
the gate motor set up with the limited space for wiring and the very poor
instruction manual ..... I think it all worked by luck in the end - the
wiring diagram is even worse but I think I may have a pdf of it on my pc
at home so I'll try to post an image somewhere when I get home and
hopefully some kind person can identify if this idea is workable.
ps. I may sound like a numbskull and some of you may be wondering if I
should be attempting something I have no knowledge about but I am very
careful around electricity and will not attempt it unless I understand
the logic behind it.
Thanks for everyones patience,
Franko.
By all means put the wiring diagram up and we'll see what we can come up
with.

Thanks Rumble, I've had the document hosted at
http://www.mooload.com/new/file.php?...tation.pdf&s=t
it is a pdf document of about 123kb so not too large.
After looking through it, I now realise that the light is actually only
activated for 2 minutes so that is not really a long enough time as opposed
to being too long. Could your method give me a bit more control over the
actions that are available to me now ?
Thanks again,
Franko.

Owain wrote:
Franko wrote:
Thanks Rumble, I've had the document hosted at
http://www.mooload.com/new/file.php?...tation.pdf&s=t

it is a pdf document of about 123kb so not too large.

Offline so can't check.

After looking through it, I now realise that the light is actually
only activated for 2 minutes so that is not really a long enough time
as opposed to being too long. Could your method give me a bit more
control over the actions that are available to me now ?

Yes.

Slightly more complicated, in that you would probably need to get a
Permanent L as well as a Switched L from the gate, but you can get
electronic relays with adjustable delay-on and delay-off settings. Using
one of those instead of the ordinary relays would allow you considerable
flexibility over controlling the lights.

You could also have additional switches to put the lights on in parallel
with the relay contacts, such as PIR sensors further up the drive.

Owain

What Owain says. Also, as the Courtesy Light Output is only rated at
40W, using an interface relay would allow you to have a larger lighting
load if necessary/desirable.

Can you post a clear photograph of the controller circuit board, so we
can try and figure out whether the courtesy light "switch" is a triac or
a relay?

"Rumble" wrote in message
...
Owain wrote:
Franko wrote:
Thanks Rumble, I've had the document hosted at
http://www.mooload.com/new/file.php?...tation.pdf&s=t
it is a pdf document of about 123kb so not too large.

Offline so can't check.

After looking through it, I now realise that the light is actually only
activated for 2 minutes so that is not really a long enough time as
opposed to being too long. Could your method give me a bit more control
over the actions that are available to me now ?

Yes.

Slightly more complicated, in that you would probably need to get a
Permanent L as well as a Switched L from the gate, but you can get
electronic relays with adjustable delay-on and delay-off settings. Using
one of those instead of the ordinary relays would allow you considerable
flexibility over controlling the lights.

You could also have additional switches to put the lights on in parallel
with the relay contacts, such as PIR sensors further up the drive.

Owain

What Owain says. Also, as the Courtesy Light Output is only rated at 40W,
using an interface relay would allow you to have a larger lighting load if
necessary/desirable.

Can you post a clear photograph of the controller circuit board, so we can
try and figure out whether the courtesy light "switch" is a triac or a
relay?

Hi, I've found another document with a photo of the circuit board, the
address is:
http://www.mooload.com/new/file.php?...cument.pdf&s=t
I'm a bit disappointed that the output is only rated at 40w so any help to
allow me to use more powerful lights is much appreciated. I have access to
other sources of power as the drive is adjacent to my shed with power and
light installed.
Thanks for all your help guys,
Franko.

Franko wrote:
Hi, I've found another document with a photo of the circuit board, the
address is:
http://www.mooload.com/new/file.php?...cument.pdf&s=t
I'm a bit disappointed that the output is only rated at 40w so any help to
allow me to use more powerful lights is much appreciated. I have access to
other sources of power as the drive is adjacent to my shed with power and
light installed.

You would need to use the controllers lamp output to switch a relay, and
then that would in turn switch a higher load if required. If you
selected lights with integral dusk sensors then they would only light
when it is actually dark.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

John Rumm wrote:
Franko wrote:
Hi, I've found another document with a photo of the circuit board, the
address is:
http://www.mooload.com/new/file.php?...cument.pdf&s=t

I'm a bit disappointed that the output is only rated at 40w so any
help to allow me to use more powerful lights is much appreciated. I
have access to other sources of power as the drive is adjacent to my
shed with power and light installed.


OK, well it seems that the controller board has a relay for the courtesy
light output, which is good, because our "new" relay would most likely
not provide enough load for a triac to work properly.

It seems that the relay is soldered in to the board, so hacking the
board would not be a good idea (in creepage and clearance) if you
are not very sure about what you're doing. I suspect that an additional
relay (poss. on a timer to increase on-time) is the order of the day.

You would need to use the controllers lamp output to switch a relay, and
then that would in turn switch a higher load if required. If you
selected lights with integral dusk sensors then they would only light
when it is actually dark.



John, I think you would find that "lights with integral dusk sensors"
would most likely need a permanent live feed to allow the electronics to
settle down as these items have a hysteresis period of (probably in the
order of) 30 mins. I don't think you can fire them up from cold and
expect an instant "it's dark so switch lamp on/it's day so don't switch
lamp on" response. As Owain has already indicated, it would likely be
best to use a permanently powered dusk/dawn sensor and use a relay
contact in the switched live output from the dusk/dawn sensor to only
switch the courtesy light on when it is both dark and the gate operates.

Huge wrote:
On 2007-10-18, Rumble wrote:

John, I think you would find that "lights with integral dusk sensors"
would most likely need a permanent live feed to allow the electronics to
settle down as these items have a hysteresis period of (probably in the
order of) 30 mins. I don't think you can fire them up from cold and
expect an instant "it's dark so switch lamp on/it's day so don't switch
lamp on" response. As Owain has already indicated, it would likely be
best to use a permanently powered dusk/dawn sensor and use a relay
contact in the switched live output from the dusk/dawn sensor to only
switch the courtesy light on when it is both dark and the gate operates.

The dusk sensor I have in the lights on the front of my house is an "instant on"
variety. It's just in series with the switch.

The bad news is that I have no idea where it came from.


OK, didn't know you could get those.

Rumble wrote:

OK, well it seems that the controller board has a relay for the courtesy
light output, which is good, because our "new" relay would most likely
not provide enough load for a triac to work properly.

It seems that the relay is soldered in to the board, so hacking the
board would not be a good idea (in creepage and clearance) if you
are not very sure about what you're doing. I suspect that an additional
relay (poss. on a timer to increase on-time) is the order of the day.

I would suggest one of the DIN mounting contactors would probably be
easiest - saves needing any bespoke wiring. A small enclosure could then
be powered from an alternate source, and just take the control box
output to drive the contactor.

You would need to use the controllers lamp output to switch a relay,
and then that would in turn switch a higher load if required. If you
selected lights with integral dusk sensors then they would only light
when it is actually dark.


John, I think you would find that "lights with integral dusk sensors"
would most likely need a permanent live feed to allow the electronics to
settle down as these items have a hysteresis period of (probably in the
order of) 30 mins. I don't think you can fire them up from cold and
expect an instant "it's dark so switch lamp on/it's day so don't switch
lamp on" response. As Owain has already indicated, it would likely be
best to use a permanently powered dusk/dawn sensor and use a relay
contact in the switched live output from the dusk/dawn sensor to only
switch the courtesy light on when it is both dark and the gate operates.

Yup, agreed. The dusk dawn sensor and the light would effectively be
powered from the alternate power source. Just the trigger would come
from the gate controller.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/