I need a ladder for things like painting upstairs windows & cleaning
gutters. I've had a look at various websites, but as I'm not very
experienced or confident with ladders I've got some questions:

1. What's the difference (apart from the obvious) between a double &
triple set. Is 1 more stable or easier to manoevre than the others?

2. I've seen several 'Combination' ladders; are these a good idea -
or a bit of a 'jack of all trades'?

3. Can anyone recommend somewhere to get good advice & a good deal?

4. Are any of the various mats or specialist feet a good idea?

Thanks,

Michael

wrote in message
oups.com...
I need a ladder for things like painting upstairs windows & cleaning
gutters. I've had a look at various websites, but as I'm not very
experienced or confident with ladders I've got some questions:

1. What's the difference (apart from the obvious) between a double &
triple set. Is 1 more stable or easier to manoevre than the others?

Nothing.
2. I've seen several 'Combination' ladders; are these a good idea -
or a bit of a 'jack of all trades'?

It depends on where you are using them.
3. Can anyone recommend somewhere to get good advice & a good deal?

DIY shop and a price comparison web site found via a search engine.
4. Are any of the various mats or specialist feet a good idea?

Not really. If a ladder is going to fall it will fall no matter what type
of fancy feet it has or mat is underneth.
Thanks,

Michael

On 11/03/2007 20:27, wrote:

1. What's the difference (apart from the obvious) between a double &
triple set. Is 1 more stable or easier to manoevre than the others?

triple will be heavier for a given reach due to needing two sections of
overlap, also double will be thinner but longer when it comes to storing
them.

2. I've seen several 'Combination' ladders; are these a good idea -
or a bit of a 'jack of all trades'?

My combination ones wouln't get me anywhere near close enough to paint
the upstairs windows.

4. Are any of the various mats or specialist feet a good idea?

a proper stand-off to fit at the top certainly worthwhile.

wrote:
I need a ladder for things like painting upstairs windows & cleaning
gutters. I've had a look at various websites, but as I'm not very
experienced or confident with ladders I've got some questions:

1. What's the difference (apart from the obvious) between a double &
triple set. Is 1 more stable or easier to manoevre than the others?

Doubles are easier to move about when extended than triples, although they
are obvioulsy longer for storage purposes.

2. I've seen several 'Combination' ladders; are these a good idea -
or a bit of a 'jack of all trades'?


Jack of all trades - in general, don't use them unless you have absolutely
no alternative

3. Can anyone recommend somewhere to get good advice & a good deal?


Local hardware store.

4. Are any of the various mats or specialist feet a good idea?

No.

Some more free advice:
Don't buy ladders that have box section, square rungs - when they are
upright and at an angle, you are stood on a corner of the rung, instead of
the flat part.

Don't buy ladders that slide together via runners - these don't come apart
and often you may need several sections of single ladders.

If something looks 'gimmicky', it is

wrote:
I need a ladder for things like painting upstairs windows & cleaning
gutters. I've had a look at various websites, but as I'm not very
experienced or confident with ladders I've got some questions:

1. What's the difference (apart from the obvious) between a double &
triple set. Is 1 more stable or easier to manoevre than the others?

Triple is smaller to store, thats about it really.

2. I've seen several 'Combination' ladders; are these a good idea -
or a bit of a 'jack of all trades'?

They certainly have their place, I use one all the time, but they aren't
generally long enough to reach gutters or upstairs windows. I assume we are
talking about the same thing? Mine will become a set of step ladders or a
long ladder, or a platform, or work on stairs.

3. Can anyone recommend somewhere to get good advice & a good deal?

Can't help with that. Hire shops know their onions though.

4. Are any of the various mats or specialist feet a good idea?

Absolutely, positively, definately whatever you do buy a ladder stay
http://www.wickes.co.uk/invt/530039 they make so much difference & make you
feel much more secure.


--
Dave
The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk
01634 717930
07850 597257

In message .com,
writes
I need a ladder for things like painting upstairs windows & cleaning
gutters. I've had a look at various websites, but as I'm not very
experienced or confident with ladders I've got some questions:

1. What's the difference (apart from the obvious) between a double &
triple set. Is 1 more stable or easier to manoevre than the others?

2. I've seen several 'Combination' ladders; are these a good idea -
or a bit of a 'jack of all trades'?

3. Can anyone recommend somewhere to get good advice & a good deal?

4. Are any of the various mats or specialist feet a good idea?

Go for a professional rather than a hobby ladder

Buy a three piece


--
geoff

wrote:

I need a ladder for things like painting upstairs windows & cleaning
gutters. I've had a look at various websites, but as I'm not very
experienced or confident with ladders I've got some questions:

1. What's the difference (apart from the obvious) between a double &
triple set. Is 1 more stable or easier to manoevre than the others?

Doubles are slightly easier to move about extended, but harder to store.
A triple breaks down to a smaller single piece ladder which can be handy
if you need a very long one (half a very long double may still be too
long to be useful in many cases)

2. I've seen several 'Combination' ladders; are these a good idea -
or a bit of a 'jack of all trades'?

Jack of all trades. Handy to have, but usually in addition to a "proper"
one.

3. Can anyone recommend somewhere to get good advice & a good deal?

Got mine from screwfix - was pleased with it. Had a couple of tripples
so far (bought one, then made the house taller so needed to get another!)

4. Are any of the various mats or specialist feet a good idea?

A standoff is well worth having (get one with a tray on it). A roof hook
can be useful sometimes.

Other stuff to look at:

There are several classes of ladder. The domestic stuff usually has a
maximum loading of only 95 kg. That includes you and anything you are
carrying. If you are comfortably inside that weight, then they have the
advantage of being light and easy to move about. If you are close to it
they will feel (and be) dangerously unstable. Box section styles are
usually better than "I" section, and D section rungs are much better
than other types (round is next best and square least nice).

The next class up is to BS EN131. These are far more substantial and
rated for loads of 150kg. They in general feel far more secure
especially if you are on the larger side. This is the type of ladder I
always go for. Downside is they cost a bit more and are heavier to move
about.

Beyond that you have the industrial rated stuff - again heavier still
(although some are fibreglass and hence not so bad). I don't have much
experience of these and so can't tell you much else other than they are
handy when working near high voltages.

Don't dismiss wooden ladders either - some can prove less "bouncy" than
an ali one of the same weight. Things like wooden scaffold ladders are
often astonishingly strong.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"The Medway Handyman" wrote in message
.uk...

Absolutely, positively, definately whatever you do buy a ladder stay
http://www.wickes.co.uk/invt/530039 they make so much difference & make
you feel much more secure.


I agree with the sentiment but that model doen't impress me. Because it's
a
relitively flat bar is not good on an uneven wall. Have a look at the
"Screwfix superior" which additionally provides a tray. The serious point
for the OP is that a good standoff should move the points of support
outboard and allow part of the ladder to extend beyond the point of work
typically at a gutter.

Jim A

On Mon, 12 Mar 2007 00:17:45 GMT, raden wrote:

|!In message .com,
writes
|!I need a ladder for things like painting upstairs windows & cleaning
|!gutters. I've had a look at various websites, but as I'm not very
|!experienced or confident with ladders I've got some questions:
|!
|!1. What's the difference (apart from the obvious) between a double &
|!triple set. Is 1 more stable or easier to manoevre than the others?
|!
|!2. I've seen several 'Combination' ladders; are these a good idea -
|!or a bit of a 'jack of all trades'?
|!
|!3. Can anyone recommend somewhere to get good advice & a good deal?
|!
|!4. Are any of the various mats or specialist feet a good idea?
|!
|!Go for a professional rather than a hobby ladder
|!
|!Buy a three piece

Long enough to project 1 m above *your* guttering.

I have a three piece which works fine up upstairs window level.
--
Dave Fawthrop dave hyphenologist co uk Compare and contrast
Sharia Law http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia
European Convention on Human Rights http://www.hri.org/docs/ECHR50.html
Then sign this petition http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Ban-Sharia

In article ,
"Jim Alexander" writes:

"The Medway Handyman" wrote in message
.uk...

Absolutely, positively, definately whatever you do buy a ladder stay
http://www.wickes.co.uk/invt/530039 they make so much difference & make
you feel much more secure.

I agree with the sentiment but that model doen't impress me. Because it's
a
relitively flat bar is not good on an uneven wall. Have a look at the
"Screwfix superior" which additionally provides a tray. The serious point
for the OP is that a good standoff should move the points of support
outboard and allow part of the ladder to extend beyond the point of work
typically at a gutter.

That picture doesn't do it justice. There's a thick rubber tread
at each end of the wall bar. Make sure it includes the spring
clip to hold it on to the rungs -- I've seen ones on the shelf
in Wickes with that part missing. I've found the Wickes one to
be very solid and stable. It's actually a Youngmans Ladder stay,
and it's available elsewhere with an optional clip in tool tray,
although I've not found a tool tray as useful as I thought it
would be.

A look at the picture of the "Screwfix superior" leaves me very
unimpressed with the fixing to the ladder, compared to the
Youngmans/Wickes one.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
wrote:
.....
The next class up is to BS EN131. These are far more substantial and rated
for loads of 150kg.

That is the Class 2 rating. Class 3 is rated at 125kg.

They in general feel far more secure especially if you are on the larger
side. This is the type of ladder I always go for. Downside is they cost a
bit more and are heavier to move about.

Beyond that you have the industrial rated stuff - again heavier still

Technically, both Class 1 and Class 2 BS EN 131 ladders are industrial
grade. Class 1 are rated to 175kg though.

(although some are fibreglass and hence not so bad). I don't have much
experience of these and so can't tell you much else other than they are
handy when working near high voltages....

GRP ladders are remarkably heavy, but very solid.

Colin Bignell

Andrew Gabriel wrote:

A look at the picture of the "Screwfix superior" leaves me very
unimpressed with the fixing to the ladder, compared to the
Youngmans/Wickes one.

I've a screwfix superior ladder stay - I wouldn't go up a ladder without
it - its so much more stable

ps the plastic is only a cover, its actually a aluminium frame / with a good
chunky metal screw locking device

jon

On 11 Mar, 20:27, wrote:
I need a ladder for things like painting upstairs windows & cleaning
gutters. I've had a look at various websites, but as I'm not very
experienced or confident with ladders I've got some questions:

1. What's the difference (apart from the obvious) between a double &
triple set. Is 1 more stable or easier to manoevre than the others?

I went for a triple as whilst I required the height to safely reach my
roofline (~7m) I also needed the sections to be short enough (3m) for
me to store them inside my terraced house (in the loft). The three
stages can seperate which has been handy whilst in use too.

2. I've seen several 'Combination' ladders; are these a good idea -
or a bit of a 'jack of all trades'?

I've got a small 'mutli-purpose/combi' stepladder for indoor work but
for outdoor work at height I'd stick with a 'proper' ladder - no point
paying a premium for a feature you might never take advantage of,
particularly so given the additional cost in terms of money and
weight.

3. Can anyone recommend somewhere to get good advice & a good deal?

I bought mine (2.91m-7.44m triple trade) from
http://www.ladders-online.com/acatal...n_Ladders.html -
good price, service and product. The ladders actually come from
TBDavies in Cardiff.

4. Are any of the various mats or specialist feet a good idea?

One safety item that I consider exceptional value-for-money, if only
at least for the fact that it gave me the confidence to paint my whole
house without too much stress, is the 'Laddermax' stand-off. Not only
does it provide a very stable (wide) contact against the wall but it
can straddle drainpipes etc with ease. Also, the platform is perfect
for tools, paint trays etc and what's more it stops you looking down!!
Having been up the ladder with/without the stand-off the difference is
incredible. Quick to install/remove and worth every penny at ~£35 - I
cannot recommend it enough.

http://www.haxnicks.co.uk/trade/laddermax.html (also available at
LaddersOnline and Screwfix etc however this page shows some good
pictures of it along with a couple of useful links)

Mathew

In article ,
"Jonathan Pearson" writes:
Andrew Gabriel wrote:

A look at the picture of the "Screwfix superior" leaves me very
unimpressed with the fixing to the ladder, compared to the
Youngmans/Wickes one.

I've a screwfix superior ladder stay - I wouldn't go up a ladder without
it - its so much more stable

ps the plastic is only a cover, its actually a aluminium frame / with a good
chunky metal screw locking device

OK, the picture perhaps doesn't do it justice, again.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

wrote:
I need a ladder for things like painting upstairs windows & cleaning
gutters. I've had a look at various websites, but as I'm not very
experienced or confident with ladders I've got some questions:

1. What's the difference (apart from the obvious) between a double &
triple set. Is 1 more stable or easier to manoevre than the others?

2. I've seen several 'Combination' ladders; are these a good idea -
or a bit of a 'jack of all trades'?

Triple ladders are shorter overall for storage, but are more expensive
and weigh more for a given overall length.

Nobody's mentioned yet, but if you have a very long double ladder it can
be a real sod to erect it: it you stand it up against the side of your
house while not extended, and then push up the extending section, before
long you are standing on tip toes with outstretched arms, and you can't
reach any higher. (Ever seen builders standing on the bottom of them
two rungs up, bouncing the ladder on and off the wall as they push up
the extending section?!)

And as another Screwfix Superior Standoff owner, may I add my vote for
that, too - it's excellent.

David

"Lobster" wrote in message
...
....
Nobody's mentioned yet, but if you have a very long double ladder it can
be a real sod to erect it: it you stand it up against the side of your
house while not extended, and then push up the extending section, before
long you are standing on tip toes with outstretched arms, and you can't
reach any higher. ...

All the ladders I've had that were that long had ropes to pull the upper
part up.

Colin Bignell

nightjar nightjar@ wrote:
"Lobster" wrote in message
...
...
Nobody's mentioned yet, but if you have a very long double ladder it can
be a real sod to erect it: it you stand it up against the side of your
house while not extended, and then push up the extending section, before
long you are standing on tip toes with outstretched arms, and you can't
reach any higher. ...

All the ladders I've had that were that long had ropes to pull the upper
part up.

There seems to be a range of ladders that fall into that intermediate
length - too long to raise manually from he ground, but not long enough
to warrant ropes. My triple is a bit like that, I can't quite get each
section to full extension from the ground (and I can reach over 8' on
tip toes!)

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Thanks for all of the really useful responses. I'd been planning to
get a combination ladder, or failing that a double. After reading the
responses it looks like I'll be better off with a triple. Also the
response couldn't have been much clearer about getting a ladder stay.

I've measured my gutters as being about 6.1 mts up. Based on a 1:4
ratio I reckon I'll need ladders at least 7.6m long. Looking at the
various websites it looks like the 7.44m long ladders will be too
small to get to the gutters & I'll have to go for the 8.94m length,
which will be heaver / more expensive / harder to store. Pls could
someone shout if I've got this wrong.

Thanks,

Michael

wrote:
Thanks for all of the really useful responses. I'd been planning to
get a combination ladder, or failing that a double. After reading the
responses it looks like I'll be better off with a triple. Also the
response couldn't have been much clearer about getting a ladder stay.

I've measured my gutters as being about 6.1 mts up. Based on a 1:4
ratio I reckon I'll need ladders at least 7.6m long. Looking at the
various websites it looks like the 7.44m long ladders will be too
small to get to the gutters & I'll have to go for the 8.94m length,
which will be heaver / more expensive / harder to store. Pls could
someone shout if I've got this wrong.

Thanks,

Michael


I've got a triple aluminium lightweight job a bit bigger than that. Easy
for me (and all my neighbours) to cart about, and pretty easy for one
person to push up to, say, two thirds its maximum. Beyond that, damned
near impossible I'd say.
My advice would be as long and as light as you can.

wrote in message
ups.com...

Thanks for all of the really useful responses. I'd been planning to
get a combination ladder, or failing that a double. After reading the
responses it looks like I'll be better off with a triple. Also the
response couldn't have been much clearer about getting a ladder stay.

I've measured my gutters as being about 6.1 mts up. Based on a 1:4
ratio I reckon I'll need ladders at least 7.6m long. Looking at the
various websites it looks like the 7.44m long ladders will be too
small to get to the gutters & I'll have to go for the 8.94m length,
which will be heaver / more expensive / harder to store. Pls could
someone shout if I've got this wrong.

Only you can decide but here's how I would approach the choice.

1. EN131 (150kg) and hang the weight.

2. chose whether you just want to access the gutter or might someday want
to access the roof (see HSE guidance about ladder extension beyond point of
work)

3(a) measure your storage space and/or how long a load you are comfortable
carrying on your car.

3(b) decide if you or your helpers are strong enough to "walk-up" a 2
section ladder which you can't quite extend from ground level.

4. select a 2 section ladder unless step (3) indicates a 3 section.

Jim A

On Mar 13, 9:09 am, Huge wrote:

I had exactly the problem described this weekend. In order to reach
the soffits on the gables, I couldn't stretch the ladder up enough. I
ended up standing on a stepladder to push the main ladder up high enough.

Couldn't you just have worked with the two ladders, like this:

http://www.safetycenter.navy.mil/pho...0/photo217.htm

or this:

http://www.safetycenter.navy.mil/pho...0/photo114.htm

or my personal favourites:

http://www.safetycenter.navy.mil/pho...00/photo77.htm

:-o

--
"Get behind early so you have plenty of time to catch up."

On 13 Mar 2007 09:50:11 -0700, mused:


Thanks for all of the really useful responses. I'd been planning to
get a combination ladder, or failing that a double. After reading the
responses it looks like I'll be better off with a triple. Also the
response couldn't have been much clearer about getting a ladder stay.

I've measured my gutters as being about 6.1 mts up. Based on a 1:4
ratio I reckon I'll need ladders at least 7.6m long. Looking at the
various websites it looks like the 7.44m long ladders will be too
small to get to the gutters & I'll have to go for the 8.94m length,
which will be heaver / more expensive / harder to store. Pls could
someone shout if I've got this wrong.

Depends on where you're storing them, if you have soe space about 3.5m
long then you'd have no trouble getting some 3.5m triples in. If your
space for ladder storage is 3m long then you'd struggle.

I've found Midland Ladders pretty good in the past, some 3.5m triples
there at a decent price. I've got some 3.2m triples that I can easily
manage on my own and can extend out to the full length in most
scenarios, but being 6'5" helps there.
--
Regards,
Stuart.

On Mar 13, 4:50 pm, wrote:

I've measured my gutters as being about 6.1 mts up. Based on a 1:4
ratio I reckon I'll need ladders at least 7.6m long. Looking at the
various websites it looks like the 7.44m long ladders will be too
small to get to the gutters & I'll have to go for the 8.94m length,
which will be heaver / more expensive / harder to store. Pls could
someone shout if I've got this wrong.

Where did your 7.6m come from?

I'm not one for advocating overdoing things on a ladder however it
sounds to me like the 7.44m will be 'plenty' big enough....

The standoff would be your contact point (just below the gutter line)
and you'd obviously want the ladders to top out slightly above the
guttering so a 7.44m max length ladder would still several rungs
overlap (and I would hope the 7.44m is the maxium safe length so you'd
be well within this).

Unless it is me that's got it wrong?

Mathew

P.S. When climbing on to a roof you obviously need the ladder to be a
person height above to enable a side-step off whilst still holding the
ladder so if this is your intent then 7.44m might admittedly be
pushing it. For me however, the fact my ladders don't safely allow a
roof run is a good enough excuse to justify me turning down any
invites to get up there! ;-)

On Mar 13, 10:01 pm, "Mathew Newton" wrote:
On Mar 13, 4:50 pm, wrote:

I've measured my gutters as being about 6.1 mts up. Based on a 1:4
ratio I reckon I'll need ladders at least 7.6m long. Looking at the
various websites it looks like the 7.44m long ladders will be too
small to get to the gutters & I'll have to go for the 8.94m length,
which will be heaver / more expensive / harder to store. Pls could
someone shout if I've got this wrong.

Where did your 7.6m come from?

I'm not one for advocating overdoing things on a ladder however it
sounds to me like the 7.44m will be 'plenty' big enough....

The standoff would be your contact point (just below the gutter line)
and you'd obviously want the ladders to top out slightly above the
guttering so a 7.44m max length ladder would still several rungs
overlap (and I would hope the 7.44m is the maxium safe length so you'd
be well within this).

Unless it is me that's got it wrong?

To illustrate my point, take a look at the following pic of my
ladders:

http://www.newtonnet.co.uk/house/200...s/IMG_4595.jpg

They're the 2.91m-7.44m triple ladders I mentioned earlier and as you
can see they are far from being fully extended and just about reach my
gutters which are 6m up. One or two rungs higher and you'll be well
placed for them...

Mathew

Mathew Newton wrote:
On Mar 13, 10:01 pm, "Mathew Newton" wrote:

On Mar 13, 4:50 pm, wrote:


I've measured my gutters as being about 6.1 mts up. Based on a 1:4
ratio I reckon I'll need ladders at least 7.6m long. Looking at the
various websites it looks like the 7.44m long ladders will be too
small to get to the gutters & I'll have to go for the 8.94m length,
which will be heaver / more expensive / harder to store. Pls could
someone shout if I've got this wrong.

Where did your 7.6m come from?

I'm not one for advocating overdoing things on a ladder however it
sounds to me like the 7.44m will be 'plenty' big enough....

The standoff would be your contact point (just below the gutter line)
and you'd obviously want the ladders to top out slightly above the
guttering so a 7.44m max length ladder would still several rungs
overlap (and I would hope the 7.44m is the maxium safe length so you'd
be well within this).

Unless it is me that's got it wrong?


To illustrate my point, take a look at the following pic of my
ladders:

http://www.newtonnet.co.uk/house/200...s/IMG_4595.jpg

They're the 2.91m-7.44m triple ladders I mentioned earlier and as you
can see they are far from being fully extended and just about reach my
gutters which are 6m up. One or two rungs higher and you'll be well
placed for them...

What are those black things under the ladder? Reason I ask, is that I
was assisting our son, last week, while he was up my ladder and we had a
lot of difficulty getting the ladders level on the ground.

Dave

On Mar 13, 10:23 pm, Dave wrote:

http://www.newtonnet.co.uk/house/200...s/IMG_4595.jpg

What are those black things under the ladder? Reason I ask, is that I
was assisting our son, last week, while he was up my ladder and we had a
lot of difficulty getting the ladders level on the ground.

Dave

It's the so-called 'Laddermat' - http://www.laddermat.co.uk/

As it was my first time up ladders at height I bought one when I got
the ladders as I felt more comfortable using a purpose-designed
product rather than wedging a piece of wood etc. I wanted to feel as
if I was at least doing something 'proper' rather than what I might
consider in hindsight in a hospital bed to have been an accident
waiting to happen.

The nobbled construction mean they can be safely stacked whereas
whilst one piece of wood might be okay two would certainly be pushing
it (coefficient of friction and all that).

I must say it's a bit pricey at ~£15 given what they are but at the
very least it gave me some reassurance whilst stood at the top.

Mathew

Mathew Newton wrote:
On Mar 13, 10:23 pm, Dave wrote:

http://www.newtonnet.co.uk/house/200...s/IMG_4595.jpg

What are those black things under the ladder? Reason I ask, is that I
was assisting our son, last week, while he was up my ladder and we had a
lot of difficulty getting the ladders level on the ground.

Dave

It's the so-called 'Laddermat' - http://www.laddermat.co.uk/

As it was my first time up ladders at height I bought one when I got
the ladders as I felt more comfortable using a purpose-designed
product rather than wedging a piece of wood etc. I wanted to feel as
if I was at least doing something 'proper' rather than what I might
consider in hindsight in a hospital bed to have been an accident
waiting to happen.

The nobbled construction mean they can be safely stacked whereas
whilst one piece of wood might be okay two would certainly be pushing
it (coefficient of friction and all that).

I must say it's a bit pricey at ~£15 given what they are but at the
very least it gave me some reassurance whilst stood at the top.

Mathew


A neater solution than having bits of slate and tiles lying around,
which are never quite the right thickness anyway.

Mathew Newton wrote:

Where did your 7.6m come from?

I'm not one for advocating overdoing things on a ladder however it
sounds to me like the 7.44m will be 'plenty' big enough....

My understanding (based on something I'd read on the net in the last
day or 2) is that a ladder should lean at a ratio of 1:4 (ie ground to
height). So to get 6.1 metres up you need to add roughly 25% to allow
for leaning, hence 7.6m

It's over 20 yrs since I did any geometry / trigonometry & I've got a
feeling that the paragraph above probably demonstrates that clearly...

Michael

On 14 Mar, 13:09, wrote:
Mathew Newton wrote:
Where did your 7.6m come from?

I'm not one for advocating overdoing things on a ladder however it
sounds to me like the 7.44m will be 'plenty' big enough....

My understanding (based on something I'd read on the net in the last
day or 2) is that a ladder should lean at a ratio of 1:4 (ie ground to
height). So to get 6.1 metres up you need to add roughly 25% to allow
for leaning, hence 7.6m

It's over 20 yrs since I did any geometry / trigonometry & I've got a
feeling that the paragraph above probably demonstrates that clearly...

Michael

They do say if you don't use it you lose it!

Your calculations are (wrongly) assuming that the ladder length is the
sum of the 'ground length' and 'wall height'. That is, 6.1/4 + 6.1 =
7.6m.

However this is not so, the relationship is actually ladder length ^2
(squared) = ground length ^2 + wall height ^2 (Pythagoras rule for
right-angle triangles). However that doesn't really help us
directly...

A more useful function for this case is the trigonometry rule tan
angle = wall height / ground length. For our 4:1 ratio we have tan
angle = 4 / 1 hence Inv tan 4 = 76 degrees. This is the optimium angle
for the ladder.

Also, we know that sin angle = wall height / ladder length. Hence
swapping everything around gives us ladder length = wall height / sin
angle. Using our figures we get 6.1 / sin76 = 6.3m. That is, the
ladder length is actually not all that much more than the height.

Of course these calculations don't take into account the fact that you
want the top of the ladder to extend beyond the working height, and
some spare rung overlap would be also be nice (if only to allow you to
remind yourself 'I could be higher and still be safe'!).

A 7.44m ladder would therefore, in your case, be fine.

Mathew

On 14 Mar, 13:37, "Mathew Newton" wrote:
On 14 Mar, 13:09, wrote:

Mathew Newton wrote:
Where did your 7.6m come from?

I'm not one for advocating overdoing things on a ladder however it
sounds to me like the 7.44m will be 'plenty' big enough....

My understanding (based on something I'd read on the net in the last
day or 2) is that a ladder should lean at a ratio of 1:4 (ie ground to
height). So to get 6.1 metres up you need to add roughly 25% to allow
for leaning, hence 7.6m

It's over 20 yrs since I did any geometry / trigonometry & I've got a
feeling that the paragraph above probably demonstrates that clearly...

Michael

They do say if you don't use it you lose it!

Your calculations are (wrongly) assuming that the ladder length is the
sum of the 'ground length' and 'wall height'. That is, 6.1/4 + 6.1 =
7.6m.

However this is not so, the relationship is actually ladder length ^2
(squared) = ground length ^2 + wall height ^2 (Pythagoras rule for
right-angle triangles). However that doesn't really help us
directly...

A more useful function for this case is the trigonometry rule tan
angle = wall height / ground length. For our 4:1 ratio we have tan
angle = 4 / 1 hence Inv tan 4 = 76 degrees. This is the optimium angle
for the ladder.

Also, we know that sin angle = wall height / ladder length. Hence
swapping everything around gives us ladder length = wall height / sin
angle. Using our figures we get 6.1 / sin76 = 6.3m. That is, the
ladder length is actually not all that much more than the height.

Of course these calculations don't take into account the fact that you
want the top of the ladder to extend beyond the working height, and
some spare rung overlap would be also be nice (if only to allow you to
remind yourself 'I could be higher and still be safe'!).

A 7.44m ladder would therefore, in your case, be fine.

Mathew

Off this end topic, but briefly returning to doubles/triples. If you
want to go very high then doubles are difficult unless they have a
rope lift as you may need to extend on the ground and then lift up as
it can be difficult to extend in-situ as your reach is limited. I have
2 sets of 8m doubles (bought off e-bay for £40 each - my tip for a
good deal) and they are a real pain to get up. Triples are easier as
you extend the top section first and then the middle one, and can
usually do this whilst 'sliding' them up the wall. Trust me trying to
take a ladder extended to 7.5m from flat on the ground to resting on
the wall is tricky (though not impossible).

Cheers,

Fash

Mathew Newton wrote:
On 14 Mar, 13:09, wrote:
Mathew Newton wrote:
Where did your 7.6m come from?
I'm not one for advocating overdoing things on a ladder however it
sounds to me like the 7.44m will be 'plenty' big enough....
My understanding (based on something I'd read on the net in the last
day or 2) is that a ladder should lean at a ratio of 1:4 (ie ground to
height). So to get 6.1 metres up you need to add roughly 25% to allow
for leaning, hence 7.6m

It's over 20 yrs since I did any geometry / trigonometry & I've got a
feeling that the paragraph above probably demonstrates that clearly...

Michael

They do say if you don't use it you lose it!

Your calculations are (wrongly) assuming that the ladder length is the
sum of the 'ground length' and 'wall height'. That is, 6.1/4 + 6.1 =
7.6m.

However this is not so, the relationship is actually ladder length ^2
(squared) = ground length ^2 + wall height ^2 (Pythagoras rule for
right-angle triangles). However that doesn't really help us
directly...

A more useful function for this case is the trigonometry rule tan
angle = wall height / ground length. For our 4:1 ratio we have tan
angle = 4 / 1 hence Inv tan 4 = 76 degrees. This is the optimium angle
for the ladder.

Also, we know that sin angle = wall height / ladder length. Hence
swapping everything around gives us ladder length = wall height / sin
angle. Using our figures we get 6.1 / sin76 = 6.3m. That is, the
ladder length is actually not all that much more than the height.

Of course these calculations don't take into account the fact that you
want the top of the ladder to extend beyond the working height, and
some spare rung overlap would be also be nice (if only to allow you to
remind yourself 'I could be higher and still be safe'!).

A 7.44m ladder would therefore, in your case, be fine.

Mathew


In practice you often don't have the space for the correct angle, in
which case you tend to hug the ladder rather more

On 14 Mar, 14:50, Stuart Noble
wrote:

In practice you often don't have the space for the correct angle, in
which case you tend to hug the ladder rather more

Sure... but I don't have the formula for that! ;-)

Mathew

Mathew Newton wrote:
It's the so-called 'Laddermat' - http://www.laddermat.co.uk/

As it was my first time up ladders at height I bought one when I got
the ladders as I felt more comfortable using a purpose-designed
product rather than wedging a piece of wood etc. I wanted to feel as
if I was at least doing something 'proper' rather than what I might
consider in hindsight in a hospital bed to have been an accident
waiting to happen.

The nobbled construction mean they can be safely stacked whereas
whilst one piece of wood might be okay two would certainly be pushing
it (coefficient of friction and all that).

I must say it's a bit pricey at ~£15 given what they are but at the
very least it gave me some reassurance whilst stood at the top.

Thanks for the link Matt, just what I've been looking for. I often find
myself on my own with nobody to foot a ladder and I often find uneven
surfaces.

Just ordered one, but it cost me £20 with delivery.


--
Dave
The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk
01634 717930
07850 597257

On Mar 11, 8:27 pm, wrote:
I need a ladder for things like painting upstairs windows & cleaning
gutters. I've had a look at various websites, but as I'm not very
experienced or confident with ladders I've got some questions:

1. What's the difference (apart from the obvious) between a double &
triple set. Is 1 more stable or easier to manoevre than the others?

2. I've seen several 'Combination' ladders; are these a good idea -
or a bit of a 'jack of all trades'?

3. Can anyone recommend somewhere to get good advice & a good deal?

4. Are any of the various mats or specialist feet a good idea?

Thanks,

Michael

There's a ladder called Little Giant on the Best Direct (informercial)
cable TV station. Looks impressive.

Mathew Newton wrote:
They do say if you don't use it you lose it!

Your calculations are (wrongly) assuming that the ladder length is the
sum of the 'ground length' and 'wall height'. That is, 6.1/4 + 6.1 =
7.6m.

However this is not so, the relationship is actually ladder length ^2
(squared) = ground length ^2 + wall height ^2 (Pythagoras rule for
right-angle triangles). However that doesn't really help us
directly...

A more useful function for this case is the trigonometry rule tan
angle = wall height / ground length. For our 4:1 ratio we have tan
angle = 4 / 1 hence Inv tan 4 = 76 degrees. This is the optimium angle
for the ladder.

Also, we know that sin angle = wall height / ladder length. Hence
swapping everything around gives us ladder length = wall height / sin
angle. Using our figures we get 6.1 / sin76 = 6.3m. That is, the
ladder length is actually not all that much more than the height.

Of course these calculations don't take into account the fact that you
want the top of the ladder to extend beyond the working height, and
some spare rung overlap would be also be nice (if only to allow you to
remind yourself 'I could be higher and still be safe'!).

A 7.44m ladder would therefore, in your case, be fine.

Mathew


That's splendid stuff - unfortunately I can't understand the maths
well enough to work out whether it makes sense, but it has prompted me
to have a play with a bit of paper & a pencil and it certainly seems
like I'd got it wrong.

Thanks,

MIchael

The message . com
from "Mathew Newton" contains these words:

In practice you often don't have the space for the correct angle, in
which case you tend to hug the ladder rather more

Sure... but I don't have the formula for that! ;-)

I presume the optimum angle is based on consideration on lateral
stability as well as vertical stability but if the ladder is steeper
than optimum you are only really at risk of toppling over backwards near
the bottom of the ladder as that event will only occur if your centre of
gravity is further away from the vertical wall than the foot of the
ladder. However, particularly low down there is precious little
frictional force at the top to prevent the ladder slipping sideways
should the footing not be exactly level or you twist sideways as you
climb. A stand-off in this respect will usually help lateral stability
but if space is limited increasing the angle of the ladder to give room
for the stand-off may be counter productive.

--
Roger Chapman

Roger wrote:
The message . com
from "Mathew Newton" contains these words:

In practice you often don't have the space for the correct angle, in
which case you tend to hug the ladder rather more

Sure... but I don't have the formula for that! ;-)

I presume the optimum angle is based on consideration on lateral
stability as well as vertical stability but if the ladder is steeper
than optimum you are only really at risk of toppling over backwards near
the bottom of the ladder as that event will only occur if your centre of
gravity is further away from the vertical wall than the foot of the
ladder. However, particularly low down there is precious little
frictional force at the top to prevent the ladder slipping sideways
should the footing not be exactly level or you twist sideways as you
climb. A stand-off in this respect will usually help lateral stability
but if space is limited increasing the angle of the ladder to give room
for the stand-off may be counter productive.


Rather like telling someone how to ride a bike