Hi,
I'm about to mount a 30Kg Arm on a brick wall with a 34Kg Plasma screen
hanging off the end of it. The arm can extend to 26" so clearly there's
going to be enough torque to open up a new door between my neighbour
and I (it is a cavity wall so no danger of me drilling through next
doors family portrait)

I'm bit unsure about which fixing to use. Shield anchors or Sleeve
anchors look like they'll do the job but one concern I have is putting
too many of those in might cause the brick to disintegrate. It's an
1860 build with stone outer wall...I'm pretty damm sure it'll be brick
behind the plaster on the inner wall as other walls have been - will be
checking that this week..)

Anyone have any thoughts on the best type and size for this sort of job
? Theoretically I can get 7 bolts on the top edge and 7 on the bottom
but after drilling those out, I doubt there'll be much Brick left to
anchor into ! (the mount hols are about 4.25" apart).

http://www.premiermounts.co.uk/PartD...AM3_Rev03_.pdf

On 20 Nov 2006 04:32:16 -0800, "Antix" wrote:

Hi,
I'm about to mount a 30Kg Arm on a brick wall with a 34Kg Plasma screen
hanging off the end of it. The arm can extend to 26" so clearly there's
going to be enough torque to open up a new door between my neighbour
and I (it is a cavity wall so no danger of me drilling through next
doors family portrait)

I'm bit unsure about which fixing to use. Shield anchors or Sleeve
anchors look like they'll do the job but one concern I have is putting
too many of those in might cause the brick to disintegrate. It's an
1860 build with stone outer wall...I'm pretty damm sure it'll be brick
behind the plaster on the inner wall as other walls have been - will be
checking that this week..)

Anyone have any thoughts on the best type and size for this sort of job
? Theoretically I can get 7 bolts on the top edge and 7 on the bottom
but after drilling those out, I doubt there'll be much Brick left to
anchor into ! (the mount hols are about 4.25" apart).

http://www.premiermounts.co.uk/PartD...AM3_Rev03_.pdf


I would be inclined to take a chisel and hammer to the wall where you
are going to put the thing to ascertain the exact construction of it.

I have recently seen one of those nose dive when the enthusiastic
demonstrator put too much pressure on the top of the telly to show how
nicely it swings around!

If the wall is a nice brick one, don't go for overkill on the bolts.

Cheers Eric,
yup I think i'll remove all the plaster around the area I'm intending
to mount to try to pinpoint the centre of the bricks for a start (and
avoid any holes ending up in the mortar or 2mm from the edge of a
brick). Then re-render it to provide a more solid plaster layer behind
the plasma mount (the old plaster would probably crack under the
pressue or tightening up the bolts anyway)

what would be overdoing it ? :-) the local hardware guy said 2-3 shield
anchors (3-4" long with a 1/2inch diam shield by the looks of what he
picked up) top and bottom would be more than enough...I'm thinking more
along the lines of 40ft wall ties through the wall, through next doors
downstairs rooms and capped off with a decorative bolt on the outside
of their wall :-)

thanks.
Ant.

Antix wrote:
Hi,
I'm about to mount a 30Kg Arm on a brick wall with a 34Kg Plasma screen
hanging off the end of it. The arm can extend to 26" so clearly there's
going to be enough torque to open up a new door between my neighbour
and I (it is a cavity wall so no danger of me drilling through next
doors family portrait)

I'm bit unsure about which fixing to use. Shield anchors or Sleeve
anchors look like they'll do the job but one concern I have is putting
too many of those in might cause the brick to disintegrate. It's an
1860 build with stone outer wall...I'm pretty damm sure it'll be brick
behind the plaster on the inner wall as other walls have been - will be
checking that this week..)

Anyone have any thoughts on the best type and size for this sort of job
? Theoretically I can get 7 bolts on the top edge and 7 on the bottom
but after drilling those out, I doubt there'll be much Brick left to
anchor into ! (the mount hols are about 4.25" apart).

http://www.premiermounts.co.uk/PartD...AM3_Rev03_.pdf


Omigawd.

I have to say my inclination would be to remove all the plaster from the
wall, bolt the telly stand to a plate of 1/8" steel, and use about 20
expansion bolts from that to the brickwork, spread over several bricks,
espcially near the top where all the 'pull' will be..with a bit of metal
mesh trapped behind said bolts, and render over the lot before re-skimming.

On 20 Nov 2006 05:28:38 -0800, "Antix" wrote:

Cheers Eric,
yup I think i'll remove all the plaster around the area I'm intending
to mount to try to pinpoint the centre of the bricks for a start (and
avoid any holes ending up in the mortar or 2mm from the edge of a
brick). Then re-render it to provide a more solid plaster layer behind
the plasma mount (the old plaster would probably crack under the
pressue or tightening up the bolts anyway)

I would do something along those lines but looking at a place in the
centre of the bracket that would not show or requiring much making up.
The best scenario is to find a good solid wall with hard bricks behind
a thin layer of plaster. The worst is to find a load of soft rubble
****e.

what would be overdoing it ? :-) the local hardware guy said 2-3 shield
anchors (3-4" long with a 1/2inch diam shield by the looks of what he
picked up) top and bottom would be more than enough...I'm thinking more
along the lines of 40ft wall ties through the wall, through next doors
downstairs rooms and capped off with a decorative bolt on the outside
of their wall :-)

LOL. I would use two at the bottom and three at the top, spaced as
widely apart as possible. The top ones are the important ones as they
will be under tension, and should be firmly gripping the centre of a
brick each.


thanks.
Ant.

When you consider the value of the bracket and telly, a bit of time
and few quid fixing it up will be worth it.

Best of luck.

On 2006-11-20 12:32:16 +0000, "Antix" said:

Hi,
I'm about to mount a 30Kg Arm on a brick wall with a 34Kg Plasma screen
hanging off the end of it. The arm can extend to 26" so clearly there's
going to be enough torque to open up a new door between my neighbour
and I (it is a cavity wall so no danger of me drilling through next
doors family portrait)

I'm bit unsure about which fixing to use. Shield anchors or Sleeve
anchors look like they'll do the job but one concern I have is putting
too many of those in might cause the brick to disintegrate. It's an
1860 build with stone outer wall...I'm pretty damm sure it'll be brick
behind the plaster on the inner wall as other walls have been - will be
checking that this week..)

Anyone have any thoughts on the best type and size for this sort of job
? Theoretically I can get 7 bolts on the top edge and 7 on the bottom
but after drilling those out, I doubt there'll be much Brick left to
anchor into ! (the mount hols are about 4.25" apart).

http://www.premiermounts.co.uk/PartD...AM3_Rev03_.pdf



For this one, I'd use resin injection fixings.

e.g. http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/...00071&ts=30298

These are much better than sleeve anchors if the quality of the
brickwork is uncertain
(e.g. could be soft).

I recently used some for supporting a frame for a wall mounted wc pan
where the wall is
breeze block. Very solid result.

Antix wrote:
Cheers Eric,
yup I think i'll remove all the plaster around the area I'm intending
to mount to try to pinpoint the centre of the bricks for a start (and
avoid any holes ending up in the mortar or 2mm from the edge of a
brick). Then re-render it to provide a more solid plaster layer behind
the plasma mount (the old plaster would probably crack under the
pressue or tightening up the bolts anyway)

what would be overdoing it ? :-) the local hardware guy said 2-3 shield
anchors (3-4" long with a 1/2inch diam shield by the looks of what he
picked up) top and bottom would be more than enough...I'm thinking more
along the lines of 40ft wall ties through the wall, through next doors
downstairs rooms and capped off with a decorative bolt on the outside
of their wall :-)

I'd also consider chasing all the way up and down the wall, and putting
in a little bit of steel fixed at the top and bottom.

yeah, saw those on screwfix but don't quite understand how you use
them...There's the resin, you pump that in the hole, but what 'fixing'
do you use ? Those resin studs worry me...you just push them in and
hope the resin grabs the thread of the stud ? how do you know if the
brick hasn't soaked up all the resin too quickly to have anything left
to grip the stud by the time you get it in the hole ?

maybe I'm missing something very basic here :-)

Ant.

"Antix" wrote in message
oups.com...
yeah, saw those on screwfix but don't quite understand how you use
them...There's the resin, you pump that in the hole, but what 'fixing'
do you use ? Those resin studs worry me...you just push them in and
hope the resin grabs the thread of the stud ? how do you know if the
brick hasn't soaked up all the resin too quickly to have anything left
to grip the stud by the time you get it in the hole ?

maybe I'm missing something very basic here :-)

The resin is more like Araldite than water - the bricks won't soak it up in
the way you're thinking. (Consider these questions: How do walls get built?
Don't the bricks soak up all the cement?)

cheers,
clive

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Antix wrote:

Hi,
I'm about to mount a 30Kg Arm on a brick wall with a 34Kg Plasma
screen hanging off the end of it. The arm can extend to 26" so
clearly there's going to be enough torque to open up a new door
between my neighbour and I (it is a cavity wall so no danger of me
drilling through next doors family portrait)

I'm bit unsure about which fixing to use. Shield anchors or Sleeve
anchors look like they'll do the job but one concern I have is putting
too many of those in might cause the brick to disintegrate. It's an
1860 build with stone outer wall...I'm pretty damm sure it'll be brick
behind the plaster on the inner wall as other walls have been - will
be checking that this week..)

Anyone have any thoughts on the best type and size for this sort of
job ? Theoretically I can get 7 bolts on the top edge and 7 on the
bottom but after drilling those out, I doubt there'll be much Brick
left to anchor into ! (the mount hols are about 4.25" apart).

http://www.premiermounts.co.uk/PartD...AM3_Rev03_.pdf

I'd go for masonry screws - something like this
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/...33706&id=16525 - which screw
straight into the bricks without using any plugs. You have to drill the
right size hole - which varies a bit depending on the material.
--
Cheers,
Roger
______
Email address maintained for newsgroup use only, and not regularly
monitored.. Messages sent to it may not be read for several weeks.
PLEASE REPLY TO NEWSGROUP!

Thanks Roger,
what advantage (in terms of load capacity) would a masonry screw have
over some sort of expanding bolt ? My asumption is that something I
stick in the hole that then expands in a sort of conical fashion will
be more tricky to pull out than something that relies on a thread (I'm
worried the thread will just cut through the brick under load)..

Ant.

"Antix" wrote in message
oups.com...
Hi,
I'm about to mount a 30Kg Arm on a brick wall with a 34Kg Plasma screen
hanging off the end of it. The arm can extend to 26" so clearly there's
going to be enough torque to open up a new door between my neighbour
and I (it is a cavity wall so no danger of me drilling through next
doors family portrait)

I'm bit unsure about which fixing to use. Shield anchors or Sleeve
anchors look like they'll do the job but one concern I have is putting
too many of those in might cause the brick to disintegrate. It's an
1860 build with stone outer wall...I'm pretty damm sure it'll be brick
behind the plaster on the inner wall as other walls have been - will be
checking that this week..)

Anyone have any thoughts on the best type and size for this sort of job
? Theoretically I can get 7 bolts on the top edge and 7 on the bottom
but after drilling those out, I doubt there'll be much Brick left to
anchor into ! (the mount hols are about 4.25" apart).

http://www.premiermounts.co.uk/PartD...AM3_Rev03_.pdf

OK, it's not my brand new telly (but I want, I want) and so this is just a
bit tongue in cheek and entirely up to you whether you take any notice or
not - probably best not to )

It just strikes me that some of the replies you've received up to now are
maybe a bit OTT. Don't forget that before lovely plasma tellys, the good old
CRT telly was a bit of a heavy beast in its day. Some of the replies have
suggested knocking plaster out, putting steel plates in, and all sorts of
things.

This TV bracket http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q...o/882b9fb4.jpg
is rated to carry 60Kg and, if I remember correctly, is fixed by six 3-inch
No.10s (or maybe it's No.12s) ordinary woodscrews and has been up there for
15 years.

John.
PS it's not usually that dusty - honest ) We've got workmen in at the
mo. so I get to clean up later.

Antix wrote:
Thanks Roger,
what advantage (in terms of load capacity) would a masonry screw have
over some sort of expanding bolt ? My asumption is that something I
stick in the hole that then expands in a sort of conical fashion will
be more tricky to pull out than something that relies on a thread (I'm
worried the thread will just cut through the brick under load)..

Ant.

what diameter of which type of fixing does the manual recommend using ?

... 5/16th so 8mm .. go to 10mm for safety and fit four of these

http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/...38090&id=12838

as described in the manual. make sure you use a quality drill to
avoid reaming the holes out - let the drill do the work and buy a
new masonry drill bit - pirhana from B&D are ok and give a clean
cut - might be worth chiseling a bit of plaster off to see where
your bricks are in relation to the mortar and mark up roughly
where the centre of the bricks are. don't overtighten the bolts.

John wrote:

It just strikes me that some of the replies you've received up to now are
maybe a bit OTT.

agreed.

On 2006-11-20 14:35:12 +0000, "Antix" said:

yeah, saw those on screwfix but don't quite understand how you use
them...There's the resin, you pump that in the hole, but what 'fixing'
do you use ? Those resin studs worry me...you just push them in and
hope the resin grabs the thread of the stud ? how do you know if the
brick hasn't soaked up all the resin too quickly to have anything left
to grip the stud by the time you get it in the hole ?

maybe I'm missing something very basic here :-)
Ant.

The hole is drilled generally 2mm larger than a threaded stud which
will be used
as the fixing.

The procedure is to drill the holes, thoroughly clean them with a
vacuum and inject some resin. One of them is a resin/mortar mix which
is a two part material in a dispenser. There is a special nozzle
with a spiral piece of plastic inside which mixes the components as you
inject.

You then insert the studs with a gentle twisting motion making sure
that some resin is forced out of the hole as you do so as to ensure
that the hole is filled properly.

The resin cures in a few hours but is fully load bearing in 24hrs.

It is quite viscous and will not soak excessively into bricks.

If you had hollow bricks, there are special sleeves that you can get
for the studs to retain the resin close to the stud, but on an 1860
house this is unlikely.

John wrote:
"Antix" wrote in message
oups.com...
Hi,
I'm about to mount a 30Kg Arm on a brick wall with a 34Kg Plasma screen
hanging off the end of it. The arm can extend to 26" so clearly there's
going to be enough torque to open up a new door between my neighbour
and I (it is a cavity wall so no danger of me drilling through next
doors family portrait)

I'm bit unsure about which fixing to use. Shield anchors or Sleeve
anchors look like they'll do the job but one concern I have is putting
too many of those in might cause the brick to disintegrate. It's an
1860 build with stone outer wall...I'm pretty damm sure it'll be brick
behind the plaster on the inner wall as other walls have been - will be
checking that this week..)

Anyone have any thoughts on the best type and size for this sort of job
? Theoretically I can get 7 bolts on the top edge and 7 on the bottom
but after drilling those out, I doubt there'll be much Brick left to
anchor into ! (the mount hols are about 4.25" apart).

http://www.premiermounts.co.uk/PartD...AM3_Rev03_.pdf

OK, it's not my brand new telly (but I want, I want) and so this is just a
bit tongue in cheek and entirely up to you whether you take any notice or
not - probably best not to )

It just strikes me that some of the replies you've received up to now are
maybe a bit OTT. Don't forget that before lovely plasma tellys, the good old
CRT telly was a bit of a heavy beast in its day. Some of the replies have
suggested knocking plaster out, putting steel plates in, and all sorts of
things.

This TV bracket http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q...o/882b9fb4.jpg
is rated to carry 60Kg and, if I remember correctly, is fixed by six 3-inch
No.10s (or maybe it's No.12s) ordinary woodscrews and has been up there for
15 years.

John.
PS it's not usually that dusty - honest ) We've got workmen in at the
mo. so I get to clean up later.

I like the calibrated dvd holders myself, carefully disgused as 2 X 1
:-), where would we get without the old 2 X 1 ?

"Staffbull" wrote in message
ups.com...

John wrote:
"Antix" wrote in message
oups.com...
Hi,
I'm about to mount a 30Kg Arm on a brick wall with a 34Kg Plasma screen
hanging off the end of it. The arm can extend to 26" so clearly there's
going to be enough torque to open up a new door between my neighbour
and I (it is a cavity wall so no danger of me drilling through next
doors family portrait)

I'm bit unsure about which fixing to use. Shield anchors or Sleeve
anchors look like they'll do the job but one concern I have is putting
too many of those in might cause the brick to disintegrate. It's an
1860 build with stone outer wall...I'm pretty damm sure it'll be brick
behind the plaster on the inner wall as other walls have been - will be
checking that this week..)

Anyone have any thoughts on the best type and size for this sort of job
? Theoretically I can get 7 bolts on the top edge and 7 on the bottom
but after drilling those out, I doubt there'll be much Brick left to
anchor into ! (the mount hols are about 4.25" apart).

http://www.premiermounts.co.uk/PartD...AM3_Rev03_.pdf

OK, it's not my brand new telly (but I want, I want) and so this is just
a
bit tongue in cheek and entirely up to you whether you take any notice or
not - probably best not to )

It just strikes me that some of the replies you've received up to now are
maybe a bit OTT. Don't forget that before lovely plasma tellys, the good
old
CRT telly was a bit of a heavy beast in its day. Some of the replies have
suggested knocking plaster out, putting steel plates in, and all sorts of
things.

This TV bracket
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q...o/882b9fb4.jpg
is rated to carry 60Kg and, if I remember correctly, is fixed by six
3-inch
No.10s (or maybe it's No.12s) ordinary woodscrews and has been up there
for
15 years.

John.
PS it's not usually that dusty - honest ) We've got workmen in at the
mo. so I get to clean up later.

I like the calibrated dvd holders myself, carefully disgused as 2 X 1
:-), where would we get without the old 2 X 1 ?

Brilliant stuff innit? ) It's there to raise the ventilation holes of
the DVD recorder above the sides of the bracket.

John.

"." wrote in message
...
John wrote:

It just strikes me that some of the replies you've received up to now are
maybe a bit OTT.

agreed.
Surely it entirely depends on how confident you are in the properties of the
bricks. You've got about 50 kg horizontal force trying to pull the top ones
straight out. A single one inch number six into reasonable softwood would do
the job. But I've seen meaty frame fixings loosened in good blockwork by
variable forces. What's the telly worth! FWIW I think I would either go for
resin, or find a way of lengthening the vertical base (e.g. a sheet of 18 mm
ply).

On 2006-11-20 18:23:26 +0000, "Newshound" said:


"." wrote in message
...
John wrote:

It just strikes me that some of the replies you've received up to now are
maybe a bit OTT.

agreed.
Surely it entirely depends on how confident you are in the properties
of the bricks.

Exactly. Given that this is an old house with unknown bricks and
assuming that the OP doesn't want to rip off the plaster to look, the
first clue will be when the first large hole is drilled.


You've got about 50 kg horizontal force trying to pull the top ones
straight out. A single one inch number six into reasonable softwood
would do the job. But I've seen meaty frame fixings loosened in good
blockwork by variable forces. What's the telly worth! FWIW I think I
would either go for resin, or find a way of lengthening the vertical
base (e.g. a sheet of 18 mm ply).

Exactly again. I can't believe that there is a discussion over the
difference in cost of a few pounds when the equipment involved is
presumably of value high hundreds to low thousands.

Given those two scenarios, one should go for the fixing type that is
most likely to be successful and least likely to give under load. In
that respect, plug fixings and sleeve anchors are somewhat questionable
if the brick proves to be soft - they can just pull out. Equally,
sleeve anchors can split bricks when tightened and the tolerance with
getting the holes just right is not large. In addition, there is
really no way to inspect the result of drilling without cutting away
the plaster.

With all of that in mind, resin fixings are the obvious choice. They
are also the most expensive, but considering the consequences of the
lot coming off of the wall, this is not something that should be bodged
and skimped.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2006-11-20 18:23:26 +0000, "Newshound" said:


"." wrote in message
...
John wrote:

It just strikes me that some of the replies you've received up to now
are
maybe a bit OTT.

agreed.
Surely it entirely depends on how confident you are in the properties of
the bricks.

Exactly. Given that this is an old house with unknown bricks and assuming
that the OP doesn't want to rip off the plaster to look, the first clue
will be when the first large hole is drilled.


You've got about 50 kg horizontal force trying to pull the top ones
straight out. A single one inch number six into reasonable softwood would
do the job. But I've seen meaty frame fixings loosened in good blockwork
by variable forces. What's the telly worth! FWIW I think I would either
go for resin, or find a way of lengthening the vertical base (e.g. a
sheet of 18 mm ply).

Exactly again. I can't believe that there is a discussion over the
difference in cost of a few pounds when the equipment involved is
presumably of value high hundreds to low thousands.

Given those two scenarios, one should go for the fixing type that is most
likely to be successful and least likely to give under load. In that
respect, plug fixings and sleeve anchors are somewhat questionable if the
brick proves to be soft - they can just pull out. Equally, sleeve anchors
can split bricks when tightened and the tolerance with getting the holes
just right is not large. In addition, there is really no way to inspect
the result of drilling without cutting away the plaster.

With all of that in mind, resin fixings are the obvious choice. They are
also the most expensive, but considering the consequences of the lot
coming off of the wall, this is not something that should be bodged and
skimped.

The point I'm making is nothing to do with cost or labour involved or
anything like that. I'm just saying that my 15-year old TV bracket is rated
to carry up to and including 60Kg and it came supplied with the 6 screws and
plugs to do the job, already in the box - that's what the manufacturers of
the bracket supplied so I used them and it's worked for me.

John.

Antix wrote:
Hi,
I'm about to mount a 30Kg Arm on a brick wall with a 34Kg Plasma screen
hanging off the end of it. The arm can extend to 26" so clearly there's
going to be enough torque to open up a new door between my neighbour
and I (it is a cavity wall so no danger of me drilling through next
doors family portrait)

I'm bit unsure about which fixing to use. Shield anchors or Sleeve
anchors look like they'll do the job but one concern I have is putting
too many of those in might cause the brick to disintegrate. It's an
1860 build with stone outer wall...I'm pretty damm sure it'll be brick
behind the plaster on the inner wall as other walls have been - will be
checking that this week..)

Anyone have any thoughts on the best type and size for this sort of job
? Theoretically I can get 7 bolts on the top edge and 7 on the bottom
but after drilling those out, I doubt there'll be much Brick left to
anchor into ! (the mount hols are about 4.25" apart).

http://www.premiermounts.co.uk/PartD...AM3_Rev03_.pdf

Whilst we are on the overkill note, drill through into next door,
threaded bar with big FOF washers/nuts on't end, mount arm onto other
end, sell it to the neighbours as free picture hangers :-)

Sorted !!!

ahhh :-) well, maybe not such a far out idea !

ok...so far I'm sort of leaning to the idea of a sleeve anchor....the
1/4 inchers by all accounts stand up to 500lbs or so 'pull out' and i'd
have 3 of those which would hopefully give me a good degree of
leaway...but I'm certainly concerned about the condition of the bricks
which I haven't uncovered yet (but will !). How does resin compare to a
sleeve anchor ?

now...not such a far out idea above becuase I am planning on removing a
brick from the wall to provide a hole to drop the AV cables through
(along with another brick at the base of the wall as the outlet)....so
there is 'some' potential to access the rear side of the wall (albeit
with shredding most of the skin off my hand fiddling around trying to
attach the nut to the back end of a bolt I've poked through...and a few
tens of nuts and washers in the proces :-) ). I'm thinking, no lateral
pressure from an expanding bolt on the brickwork is a good thing, and
no reliance on a resin I've never used before, and providing I can
actually reach the end of the bolt with my hand/arm through a single
brick hold, it'd give me a hell of a lot of peace of mind....Any
thoughts on this approach ? ideas on what to use as a stud/bolt or what
to use on the rear (just washers ? or are there special things I can
get ?)...anyone able to tell me how far through a singl brick hold I'm
likely to get my arm !! :-)

(it's a partition between my part of the house and the neighbour so I'm
not tooooo worried about condensation dripping down the cables...I'll
work around it if it happens and I'm more happy to replace cables if
they deteriorate than have the kit fall off the wall)

Ant.

On 2006-11-20 19:05:37 +0000, "John" said:


The point I'm making is nothing to do with cost or labour involved or
anything like that. I'm just saying that my 15-year old TV bracket is
rated to carry up to and including 60Kg and it came supplied with the 6
screws and plugs to do the job, already in the box - that's what the
manufacturers of the bracket supplied so I used them and it's worked
for me.



That's fine.

I've seen some products where the manufacturer's recommended fixing is
clearly woefully inadquately specified. The other aspect is that the
fixing is highly dependent on what it goes into.

GIven the value of the equipment, I would choose based on what I've
used before and no works. If it's massive overkill then so be it. I
would rather minimise the risk rather than hoping.

Antix wrote:
ahhh :-) well, maybe not such a far out idea !

ok...so far I'm sort of leaning to the idea of a sleeve anchor....the
1/4 inchers by all accounts stand up to 500lbs or so 'pull out' and i'd
have 3 of those which would hopefully give me a good degree of
leaway...but I'm certainly concerned about the condition of the bricks
which I haven't uncovered yet (but will !). How does resin compare to a
sleeve anchor ?

now...not such a far out idea above becuase I am planning on removing a
brick from the wall to provide a hole to drop the AV cables through
(along with another brick at the base of the wall as the outlet)....so
there is 'some' potential to access the rear side of the wall (albeit
with shredding most of the skin off my hand fiddling around trying to
attach the nut to the back end of a bolt I've poked through...and a few
tens of nuts and washers in the proces :-) ). I'm thinking, no lateral
pressure from an expanding bolt on the brickwork is a good thing, and
no reliance on a resin I've never used before, and providing I can
actually reach the end of the bolt with my hand/arm through a single
brick hold, it'd give me a hell of a lot of peace of mind....Any
thoughts on this approach ? ideas on what to use as a stud/bolt or what
to use on the rear (just washers ? or are there special things I can
get ?)...anyone able to tell me how far through a singl brick hold I'm
likely to get my arm !! :-)

(it's a partition between my part of the house and the neighbour so I'm
not tooooo worried about condensation dripping down the cables...I'll
work around it if it happens and I'm more happy to replace cables if
they deteriorate than have the kit fall off the wall)

Ant.

My brother has hung a pair of heavy gates using resin fixings as the
holes had to be close to the edges of the blocks, still up and OK 7 yrs
on ! they were twin injector thingies and just push threaded bar into
em, leave em cure for 24hrs and bingo, used the same for my wallplates
in the extension too.

On 2006-11-20 20:28:11 +0000, "Antix" said:

ahhh :-) well, maybe not such a far out idea !

ok...so far I'm sort of leaning to the idea of a sleeve anchor....the
1/4 inchers by all accounts stand up to 500lbs or so 'pull out' and i'd
have 3 of those which would hopefully give me a good degree of
leaway...but I'm certainly concerned about the condition of the bricks
which I haven't uncovered yet (but will !). How does resin compare to a
sleeve anchor ?

Way superior.

Keep in mind that the claimed pulling force is completely dependent on
the brick not having cracked or crumbled at all and your having drilled
the hole perfectly with no wobble removing extra material.
Resin is not at all dependent on that. It doesn't matter if the hole
is a bit too large and there is no possibility of the brick being
stressed and cracked as it can be when a sleeve anchor is tightened.




now...not such a far out idea above becuase I am planning on removing a
brick from the wall to provide a hole to drop the AV cables through
(along with another brick at the base of the wall as the outlet)....so
there is 'some' potential to access the rear side of the wall (albeit
with shredding most of the skin off my hand fiddling around trying to
attach the nut to the back end of a bolt I've poked through...and a few
tens of nuts and washers in the proces :-) ). I'm thinking, no lateral
pressure from an expanding bolt on the brickwork is a good thing, and
no reliance on a resin I've never used before, and providing I can
actually reach the end of the bolt with my hand/arm through a single
brick hold, it'd give me a hell of a lot of peace of mind....Any
thoughts on this approach ? ideas on what to use as a stud/bolt or what
to use on the rear (just washers ? or are there special things I can
get ?)...anyone able to tell me how far through a singl brick hold I'm
likely to get my arm !! :-)

I think that you would need to remove more than one brick and you
wouldn't be able to reach very far. The cavity between the walls is
likely to not be much more than about 50mm. You can easily test that
by drilling a small hole through (mark drill carefully as it reaches
the cavity) and then poking a piece of wire in until it touches the
other wall. Subtract and that's the cavity depth. I think that you
would need to take out at least two bricks to do what you are
suggesting.

I was also sceptical about the resin stuff before I tried it (quite
recently). So I bought some and did a test run on something that
wasn't critical. I loaded that up with three times the weight and
force that I calculated would be needed in the critical application and
it was completely fine.

Up to you, but if I were doing this job, that's what I'd use without
further thought.




(it's a partition between my part of the house and the neighbour so I'm
not tooooo worried about condensation dripping down the cables...I'll
work around it if it happens and I'm more happy to replace cables if
they deteriorate than have the kit fall off the wall)

Ant.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...

I was also sceptical about the resin stuff before I tried it (quite
recently). So I bought some and did a test run on something that wasn't
critical. I loaded that up with three times the weight and force that I
calculated would be needed in the critical application and it was
completely fine.

Resin fixers have been used for caving (and climbing?) for several years
now. It's quite important that they work there :-)

cheers,
clive

On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 22:27:19 +0000, Owain
wrote:

Staffbull wrote:
Whilst we are on the overkill note, drill through into next door,
threaded bar with big FOF washers/nuts on't end, mount arm onto other
end, sell it to the neighbours as free picture hangers :-)

Would that have to be equipotentially bonded as an incoming service?

Owain

Only if a B&Q windmill was connected.

HTH

Thanks Andy,
so the question now is which resin ! Screwfix do the Fischer Epoxy
which needs a special tool to ensure the two parts are ejected from the
tube simultaneously (buggers!), or there's the non-epoxy
stuff....Vinylester resin which is part cement and doesn't need a
special tool...choices choices !

I wonder if my 3 year old son's arm will fit through the hole....


Ant.

Antix wrote:

Thanks Andy,
so the question now is which resin ! Screwfix do the Fischer Epoxy
which needs a special tool to ensure the two parts are ejected from the
tube simultaneously (buggers!), or there's the non-epoxy
stuff....Vinylester resin which is part cement and doesn't need a
special tool...choices choices !

I wonder if my 3 year old son's arm will fit through the hole....


Ant.

Resin is absolutely the right choice, Andy Hall's right on the mark.
1860 brick houses typically used brick rejects and assorted junk for
inner wall leafs, bonded together with lime mortar. Some of these
bricks will be pretty hopeless strength wise, some good and solid, the
mortar will often be reduced to crumbs by now, the odd bits of wood may
have shrunk or rotten and so on. YMMV of course, but it makes sense to
use something thats known good, ie resin.

Any other fixing type will exert uneven pressure on the brick and is
much more likely to cause the brick to just crumble and let go. Resin,
as well as providing even forces all oevr the join, adds no extra
forces onto the brick due to the fixing itself, so is far more capable
than any mechanical fixing, such as sleeve or masonry bolt.

Epoxy is specified for structural repairs, the cheaper ones are used
where they dont have to survive long term. I'd preferably use epoxy,
though the other types will also work. You need a new nozzle each time
you use the stuff, so good idea to get a few nozzes at least.


NT

Antix wrote:

Thanks Andy,
so the question now is which resin ! Screwfix do the Fischer Epoxy
which needs a special tool to ensure the two parts are ejected from the
tube simultaneously (buggers!), or there's the non-epoxy
stuff....Vinylester resin which is part cement and doesn't need a
special tool...choices choices !

I wonder if my 3 year old son's arm will fit through the hole....


Ant.

Resin is absolutely the right choice, Andy Hall's right on the mark.
1860 brick houses typically used brick rejects and assorted junk for
inner wall leafs, bonded together with lime mortar. Some of these
bricks will be pretty hopeless strength wise, some good and solid, the
mortar will often be reduced to crumbs by now, the odd bits of wood may
have shrunk or rotten and so on. YMMV of course, but it makes sense to
use something thats known good, ie resin.

Any other fixing type will exert uneven pressure on the brick and is
much more likely to cause the brick to just crumble and let go. Resin,
as well as providing even forces all oevr the join, adds no extra
forces onto the brick due to the fixing itself, so is far more capable
than any mechanical fixing, such as sleeve or masonry bolt.

Epoxy is specified for structural repairs, the cheaper ones are used
where they dont have to survive long term. I'd preferably use epoxy,
though the other types will also work. You need a new nozzle each time
you use the stuff, so good idea to get a few nozzes at least.

Oh, almost forgot. 2 streams get mixed in the nozzle, and often one
stream comes out before the other, so what comes out initially will
never set. Watch the colours so you know when you've got a mix of both
coming out.


NT

wrote:

Resin is absolutely the right choice, Andy Hall's right on the mark.
1860 brick houses typically used brick rejects and assorted junk for
inner wall leafs, bonded together with lime mortar.

my extensive experience says ********.

Some of these
bricks will be pretty hopeless strength wise, some good and solid, the
mortar will often be reduced to crumbs by now, the odd bits of wood may
have shrunk or rotten and so on.

I've never read such a negative pile of rubbish in all my life.

Any other fixing type will exert uneven pressure on the brick and is
much more likely to cause the brick to just crumble and let go.

again, complete and utter crap. I don't suppose the hundreds of
tons of weight surrounding the bricks will have any effect on them
'letting go' because someone drilled a 10mm hole in one and
correctly tightened a bolt into it, will it ?

no, put one bolt in and the whole thing will 'let go', the house will
collapse and everyone will catch anthrax from the horse hair in
the plaster. for ****s sake, get a grip !

it's plain to tell who has and who hasn't just discovered resin and
who has and has not figured out how to use rawl bolts correctly.
and before anyone quacks off YES I have used both in a commercial
(i.e. liable) sense in several buildings, specifically in liverpool, which
were built way before 1860, had poorer bricks than any vic/ed house I've
renovated and are still there, as far as I know, supporting the several
hundred kilos of secondary roofing, assorted steels, wires and cables
D2's etc etc etc, etc.

a 60kg TV ? steel plates, underpinning, resin, superglue... fantasy DIY

On 2006-11-21 09:19:43 +0000, "Antix" said:

Thanks Andy,
so the question now is which resin ! Screwfix do the Fischer Epoxy
which needs a special tool to ensure the two parts are ejected from the
tube simultaneously (buggers!), or there's the non-epoxy
stuff....Vinylester resin which is part cement and doesn't need a
special tool...choices choices !

I wonder if my 3 year old son's arm will fit through the hole....


Ant.

I looked at Screwfix's different options and decided to pick from the
Fischer range, mainly because I could get all of the product
information from Fischer's web site to answer a few questions that I
had.

The options are

- go for one of the larger cartridge types such as V360 (Screwfix
88507 £16.49) or P380 (42772 £13.00). However, these require an
injection gun costing £50 (35237) for the V360 or £22.49 for the one
for P380. The V360 resin is better because it has a mortar component,
but the cost for a small project is then getting expensive.

- go for one or two of the small 100ml cartridges (51021 at £11.99).
These are more expensive in terms of price/quantity, but are complete
and ready to go. You fit the nozzle and twist the base. The resin is
the mortar type.

I wasn't sure when I was going to use the technique again or for that
matter, whether it would work adequately, so I wasn't going to invest
£50 in the special gun. I think that next time I have a significant
project I might well, though.

I was using 10mm fixings going quite deep and was able to get 8 or so
fixings from a 51021 100ml tube. I had made a reasonable estimate
and bought an extra tube just in case. Since Screwfix has a 30 day
return policy, over-ordering doesn't matter. I had a tube left over
and frankly have kept it.
The nozzles are single use only. However, because I was using several
packs at one go, I was able to transfer a nozzle and end up with some
spares.

So the steps a

- Identify the stud size that will fit the holes in the bracket. You
will need a masonry drill 2mm diameter larger.

- Choose studs that are of suitable length. It's better to avoid
drilling all the way into the cavity if you can because you will tend
to inject some resin all the way through. However, that's not
horrendous - you just need to slowly withdraw the nozzle while
injecting. You can cut the studs with a hacksaw and that's easier
done before fitting.

- For accuracy, I would recommend making up a template from a piece of
ply or similar. Using the bracket, mark and drill holes in the ply
of the size of the holes in the bracket.

- Tape the template to the wall (level it with a spirit level) and mark
the holes. Remove template.

- Drill the holes.

- Vacuum them out thoroughly. This is important. If you hold the
nozzle of the cleaner hose up to the wall at each hole put only half
covering the hole, the rush of air in clears the dust out well.

- I would suggest doing them all at once, injecting the resin and
inserting each stud with twisting motion. Important. If there isn't
some ooze of resin from the hole then pull out stud and put in more
resin.

- Clean off any excess resin

- Locate the template back onto the studs making sure that all go
through. This ensures that they are all located exactly correctly and
that the bracket will fit. Remember that each stud has +/- 1mm of
movement.

- Leave for 24hrs

- Then you can attach the bracket.

thanks Andy,
all makes sense. I actually did some calculations and I think I've
worked out that there's not as much force on the bolts as I originally
though. My original panic was that worst case, let's say there's the
full weight of the arm (30Kg) plus the weight of the plasma (34Kg)
hanging 26" from the wall...there could be a lot of leverage pulling on
the bolt/s.

In fact (if my GCSE physics serves me), it's entirely dependant on the
distance the top bolt/s is from the pivot point...i.e if the top bolt
were 26" up the wall, the force pulling the bolt out would be equal to
the weight of the stuff dangling at the end of the arm...now 63Kg
doesn't sound so bad.

Looking at the mount, it'll be trying to pivot around the bottom set of
bolts. The top set of bolts will be about 21 inches above the bottom.
So the ratio of the arm length to the distance between the pivot point
and the bolt is 1.3:1 i.e there's 1.3 times more weight pulling the top
bolts out, than the weight of the stuff dangling. ie. worst case
(assuming the boy doesn't use it as a swing), is about 82Kg.

So ignoring sheer (no doubt that'll be my downfall...along with
boy+swing), if I have 7 bolts along the top, 12Kg per bolt trying to
pull out of the wall at 90 degrees. If I add the boy to the equation
and assume he's static (let's say up to 36 kilos, that gives me about
5 years growth to train him not to swing on it), the total force
pulling on each bolt is say 99Kg * 1.3 / 7 = 18Kg. 25% margin of error
gives 23Kg per bolt.

The fischer FIS V resin with an M8 * 110 A4 stud looks like it takes
6KN Tensile and Sheer or am I reading the specs totally wrong ? that's
about 600Kg per bolt isn't it ?!!

Ant.

.. wrote:
wrote:

Resin is absolutely the right choice, Andy Hall's right on the mark.
1860 brick houses typically used brick rejects and assorted junk for
inner wall leafs, bonded together with lime mortar.

my extensive experience says ********.

Some of these
bricks will be pretty hopeless strength wise, some good and solid, the
mortar will often be reduced to crumbs by now, the odd bits of wood may
have shrunk or rotten and so on.

I've never read such a negative pile of rubbish in all my life.

Any other fixing type will exert uneven pressure on the brick and is
much more likely to cause the brick to just crumble and let go.

again, complete and utter crap. I don't suppose the hundreds of
tons of weight surrounding the bricks will have any effect on them
'letting go' because someone drilled a 10mm hole in one and
correctly tightened a bolt into it, will it ?

no, put one bolt in and the whole thing will 'let go', the house will
collapse and everyone will catch anthrax from the horse hair in
the plaster. for ****s sake, get a grip !

it's plain to tell who has and who hasn't just discovered resin and
who has and has not figured out how to use rawl bolts correctly.
and before anyone quacks off YES I have used both in a commercial
(i.e. liable) sense in several buildings, specifically in liverpool, which
were built way before 1860, had poorer bricks than any vic/ed house I've
renovated and are still there, as far as I know, supporting the several
hundred kilos of secondary roofing, assorted steels, wires and cables
D2's etc etc etc, etc.

a 60kg TV ? steel plates, underpinning, resin, superglue... fantasy DIY

today you talk ballcocks, make sillies up as you go along, and leap to
incorrect conclusions.


NT

Resin is absolutely the right choice, Andy Hall's right on the mark.
1860 brick houses typically used brick rejects and assorted junk for

who used the non-rejects ?

On 24 Nov 2006 05:41:48 -0800, "Antix" wrote:

| Resin is absolutely the right choice, Andy Hall's right on the mark.
| 1860 brick houses typically used brick rejects and assorted junk for
|
|who used the non-rejects ?

Top quality buildings for the Toffs
--
Dave Fawthrop dave hyphenologist co uk Google Groups is IME the *worst*
method of accessing usenet. GG subscribers would be well advised get a
newsreader, say Agent, and a newsserver, say news.individual.net. These
will allow them: to see only *new* posts, a killfile, and other goodies.

On 24 Nov 2006 05:41:48 -0800 Antix wrote :
Resin is absolutely the right choice, Andy Hall's right on the
mark. 1860 brick houses typically used brick rejects and
assorted junk

who used the non-rejects ?

On lots of Victorian houses you may think that you are looking at a
one brick (9") solid wall, usually Flemish bond. The reality, as
anyone who has cut openings in one will know, is that most of the
headers may be snapped headers - good bricks are cut in half and
used as two headers on the external face, and underburnt or
otherwise poor bricks are used to make up the inner half. Likewise
the stretchers on the inside face of the wall. With early and mid
Victorian stucco (rendered) houses, anything goes.

In my BCO days I pulled out a file on a 1930s estate where the
Building Inspector had written complaining about a (pebble dashed)
house being built entirely of half bricks. The developer wrote back
and said that it was normal practice to use all the broken bricks on
the last house, and it appears that this explanation was accepted!

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk

Thanks for all the advice guys ! Job done and it was still on the wall
this morning when I left for work :-)

I used about 4-5 resin studs (M8) top and bottom, backed up by 2 shield
anchors top and bottom. That resin (Fischer V 360) caught me out tho !
I filled 10 holes up with resin but by the time I got to the 8th, it
had already set ! not particularly worried tho as they were the last 2
on the bottom and I figured I probably have enough support now to
handle a tonne.

It's still scary seeing a 42" plasma hanging in mid-air off the wall
tho...will take some time to get used to !

For the shield anchors btw, I drilled deep enough to set the anchor
colar behind the plaster (i.e as far into the brick as I could without
going all the way through). I then carved a couple of matchsticks to a
flat point and wedged them between the colar and the brick to keep the
anchor in place whilst I tightened the bolts. This prevented them from
being pulled back out to mate with the mounting plate so instead they
stayed in situe, fully within the brick.

Let's hope the wall holds up :-)

Ant.

In message . com, Antix
writes
Thanks for all the advice guys ! Job done and it was still on the wall
this morning when I left for work :-)
Great stuff, the local church hung a few flat screens off the walls
using the fixings that came with the brackets but the screens were down
a couple of months later. Nothing to do with the fixings mind you, more
to do with the low life hoodie scum who wrenched them off the walls but
at least the brackets held.
--
Clint Sharp