Mary Fisher wrote:
"Geronimo W. Christ Esq" wrote in message
...
Harry Bloomfield wrote:

No, but I know of a very convincing person who has done it.
It's nonsense. What's the explanation for dowsing in terms of the known
laws of physics ?

What's the explanation for life in terms of the *known* laws of physics? Or
death, come to that?

Are you suggesting that we've reached the point where we know EVERYTHING?

No of course not. But there is an explanation for most observed physical
phenomena on earth. Dowsing is not an observed physical phenomena, ie it
cannot be demonstrated to work.

The reason why I asked the question is because the interactions between
physical objects such as wood, brass or water involved in dowsing are
generally very well understood.

You have to ask questions about these things. How do you stop yourself
from being taken in by con-artists if you are willing to believe any
theory they make up about anything ?

Pet @ www.gymratz.co.uk ;¬) wrote:

It's nonsense. What's the explanation for dowsing in terms of the
known laws of physics ?

And were you taken back in time you'd also believe the world was flat
because no-one had proven otherwise.....

Efforts to prove that the earth was round were ultimately successful.

No?

Physical phenomena, such as the range of known interactions between
objects such as water and wood, are generally well understood. I
wouldn't go so far as to claim that we know everything that can possibly
be known, but if dowsing was as simple and as obvious as people claim
that it is, a way would have been found to explain it in terms of
physics. We know about things like magnetic fields, electric fields, and
electromagnetic radiation, which along with other things are the names
we give to the forces at work when things interact.

The laws of physics do not explain dowsing for a good reason - there is
no basis upon which to formulate a law, because dowsing does not work.
Attempts to prove that dowsing works have been singular failures. If
dowsing did work, then I am reasonably confident that there would be a
scientific explanation why.

Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Geronimo W. Christ Esq expressed precisely :
Harry Bloomfield wrote:

No, but I know of a very convincing person who has done it.

It's nonsense. What's the explanation for dowsing in terms of the
known laws of physics ?

I didn't say whether I believed in it or not, simply that I knew someone
who claimed a great deal of success using the the technique.

My apologies. You said that they'd "done" it so I assumed that you had
observed it and didn't have a dispute with it.

"Chris Bacon" wrote in message
...
dennis@home wrote:
"Mary Fisher" wrote...
[wells]
That's another matter and not always true. Our daughter didn't want to
use the well, just to know where it was.

One of you has some sense then.

Naughty Dennis, you'll be "plonked", you will! Then you'll be
sorry - erm - won't you?

Who are you calling a plonker? ;-)

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

I wonder whether dowsing can detect air filled cavities...

I think a better explanation is..."You know"...

You just don't know you know.

Fair enough. But how do you stop yourself from being bull****ted ?

If B&Q sold a magical crystal with loads of added paranormal whatsit
that magically stopped your roof guttering from filling with moss and
leaves, would you buy it ? Or would the bull**** detector go off ?

Which leads to the question, how do you sort out truth and fact from all
the random bull**** out there, and stop yourself from being conned ?

As far as RANDI goes, anyone who wants to win a prize, and demonstrate
his own veracity, is likely to be the worst possible candidate for being
able to do this stuff. High ego levels and paranormal experiences are
anathema.

This is pure emperor's new clothes stuff. Do you believe any old of load
**** you read in the Reader's Digest ?

Mary Fisher wrote:

Shakespeare (that Tudor spit hack) hit the nail on the head - there are
more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your
philosophy

Like Santa Claus ?

How do you determine fact from fiction in your world ? You almost
certainly do it every day without thinking - yet you're questioning
other people doing it right here.

Harry Bloomfield wrote:
submitted this idea :
Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Geronimo W. Christ Esq expressed precisely :
Harry Bloomfield wrote:

No, but I know of a very convincing person who has done it.
I didn't say whether I believed in it or not, simply that I knew
someone who claimed a great deal of success using the the technique.

--

Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

If you ask him the right questions you will find he is either
fantasising or lieing or simply deranged. We all know nutters like that
- some of them very plausible.

I would not describe as a lier, a nutter or even a fantasiser. He is a
well studied gentleman who has a great deal of respect in his local
area, for both his knowledge and his dowsing ability.

As I said - many are highly plausible. Still a fraud/liar/nutter
though. He's obviously pulled the wool over your eyes!

cheers

Jacob

Geronimo W. Christ Esq wrote:
If B&Q sold a magical crystal with loads of added paranormal whatsit
that magically stopped your roof guttering from filling with moss and
leaves, would you buy it ? Or would the bull**** detector go off ?

Gosh, do they really???? I MUST have one!!!! Wot culler is it????
And the bulldhit dertecter, how much are they?!?!

Where can I bi a good quality dowsing system???! I want that
$1E6!!!! I carn'et bulleeve it hasn't been one yet!!!!

Owain wrote:

Geronimo W. Christ Esq wrote:
I do not know how it works, I have only seen it done as I described
earlier in this thread. I would however like to know.
There are several theories on Wikipedia about why it appears to work,
sometimes. In practice under controlled conditions it seldom works.

I wish I'd bloody never bloody mentioned bloody dowsing ...

I know the feeling - If only you'd had a crystal ball ...

John
--
John White,
Electrical Contractor

Geronimo W. Christ Esq wrote:
wrote:

Does dowsing work? I tried it once out of curiosity and was surprised
to get results, but would be truly unhappy to see someone charging a
client for it.

You would only say that if you didn't really believe that it worked. It
sounds like you think it was more down to chance.

Well, we have no way to know. But chance does look like a pretty
likely explanation. One of the credible ones anyway.


Anyone who believes it really does work could be a million dollars
richer by demonstrating it under test conditions.

belief wont get them that.


Its at best way out there. If its your last chance, cant
hurt to try it.

As others in the thread have said, there is water everywhere, it is a
matter how deep you dig.

yes, though that has no bearing on whether or not dowsing works. When
water dowsing, people are normally looking for a drain or a well,
rather than the water table.


NT

Geronimo W. Christ Esq wrote:
wrote:

It seems to not have a problem working, despite that.

Lots of things have no yet known explanation.

The reason why dowsing appears to work is well understood.

ok, tell us why I got 12 answers out of 12 right when I tried it. I
sure dont know. It could be chance, but from that data the odds appear
to be just 0.5^12 that it is.


On the other
hand, the reason why people persist in believing something which is
demonstrably nonsense is not.

The workings of the human
body are the prime example.

On the contrary, the workings of most parts of the human body are well
understood.

only with limited depth. If you look into the pharmacology deeper
you'll find more not known than known. There is a great deal of medical
advance ahead of us yet.


I'm not arguing with dowsing, merely asking for evidence that it works.
To date none exists. The fact that $1m is up for grabs and still no-one
can prove that it works suggests that there are major problems with the
concept.

Undoubtedly. But depite that, many people have successfully dowsed for
drains, water pipes and so on. Thats the mystery.


NT

In message , Geronimo W. Christ
Esq writes
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

I wonder whether dowsing can detect air filled cavities...
I think a better explanation is..."You know"...
You just don't know you know.

Fair enough. But how do you stop yourself from being bull****ted ?

If B&Q sold a magical crystal with loads of added paranormal whatsit
that magically stopped your roof guttering from filling with moss and
leaves, would you buy it ? Or would the bull**** detector go off ?

Which leads to the question, how do you sort out truth and fact from
all the random bull**** out there, and stop yourself from being conned ?

As far as RANDI goes, anyone who wants to win a prize, and
demonstrate his own veracity, is likely to be the worst possible
candidate for being able to do this stuff. High ego levels and
paranormal experiences are anathema.

This is pure emperor's new clothes stuff. Do you believe any old of
load **** you read in the Reader's Digest ?

What, you mean ?

no, it can't be


--
geoff

John White wrote:

I wish I'd bloody never bloody mentioned bloody dowsing ...


I know the feeling - If only you'd had a crystal ball ...

he would "clink" when he walked ;-)

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

John White wrote:

I know the feeling - If only you'd had a crystal ball ...

That would be scrying, not dowsing - and that doesn't work either :-)


--
Dave
The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk
01634 717930
07850 597257

I'm not arguing with dowsing, merely asking for evidence that it works.
To date none exists. The fact that $1m is up for grabs and still no-one
can prove that it works suggests that there are major problems with the
concept.

Undoubtedly. But depite that, many people have successfully dowsed for
drains, water pipes and so on. Thats the mystery.


NT

But is this true? I doubt it. I've never seen a convincing demo and all
accounts are very much hearsay. as yours is. I've been convinced for
years that it's complete ******** (or crystal balls) but am open minded
and willing to look at any evidence should it ever come my way.

cheers

Jacob

wrote:
Geronimo W. Christ Esq wrote:
wrote:
It seems to not have a problem working, despite that.
Lots of things have no yet known explanation.
The reason why dowsing appears to work is well understood.

ok, tell us why I got 12 answers out of 12 right when I tried it. I
sure dont know. It could be chance, but from that data the odds appear
to be just 0.5^12 that it is.

You're in the wrong job. If it's that good you could earn lots
and lots of money finding cables, pipes, leaks, etc. under roads
in towns more reliably than any other cost effective method.

I wonder why dowsers aren't employed in very large numbers?

The Medway Handyman wrote:
John White wrote:

I know the feeling - If only you'd had a crystal ball ...

That would be scrying, not dowsing - and that doesn't work either :-)


Oh it does...just not in the way people would like it to.

"Owain" wrote in message
...


I wish I'd bloody never bloody mentioned bloody dowsing ...

I'm sorry, Owain ...

Mary

"Geronimo W. Christ Esq" wrote in message
...
John White wrote:

If your friend can demonstrate the alleged ability under scientific
conditions he is up for $1,000,000.

Why would he want to do that?

You're asking why would someone want to win a million bucks ?

Well, you tell us.

"Geronimo W. Christ Esq" wrote in message
...

I'm not arguing with dowsing, merely asking for evidence that it works.

Why is it so important to you?

wrote in message
ups.com...


...I've been convinced for
years that it's complete ******** (or crystal balls)


... but am open minded
and willing to look at any evidence should it ever come my way.

er?

"Geronimo W. Christ Esq" wrote in message
...
Mary Fisher wrote:

Your beliefs are as valido as those of the rest of us.

Mary, what do beliefs have to do with it ? This is not religion or faith.

Nobody has ever shown that dowsing works

That's what you believe.

despite the fact that in doing so, they stand to gain $1m.

Why is money so important to you?

"Geronimo W. Christ Esq" wrote in message
...
Mary Fisher wrote:

Our daughter's animals must be more intelligent than we thought if they
understand the 'placebo effect'.

It was obviously smart enough to tell you it was feeling better.

You don't seem to know much about animal conditions.

Mary Fisher wrote:
"Owain" wrote...
I wish I'd bloody never bloody mentioned bloody dowsing ...

I'm sorry, Owain ...

Well push off, then, and don't keep posting crap.

Geronimo W. Christ Esq wrote:
Pet @ www.gymratz.co.uk ;¬) wrote:

It's nonsense. What's the explanation for dowsing in terms of the
known laws of physics ?


And were you taken back in time you'd also believe the world was flat
because no-one had proven otherwise.....


We know about things like magnetic fields, electric fields, and
electromagnetic radiation, which along with other things are the names
we give to the forces at work when things interact.

No, we know hardly anything at all about any of these fundamental
forces, especially gravity. We have mathematical formulas that predict
how they work under different conditions, but that isn't an explanation.

Thats why they keep building huge particle machines in Switzerland - to
test out theories.

john2

wrote in message
ups.com...

Harry Bloomfield wrote:


I would not describe as a lier, a nutter or even a fantasiser. He is a
well studied gentleman who has a great deal of respect in his local
area, for both his knowledge and his dowsing ability.

As I said - many are highly plausible. Still a fraud/liar/nutter
though. He's obviously pulled the wool over your eyes!

How do you know?

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
Mary Fisher wrote:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...

Almost all of the psychic and paranormal stuff ...

You consider dowsing psychic and paranormal?

In the context of it 'not answering to the known laws of physics etc' yes.

So how do YOU decide what is categorised as 'almost all' ... ?

"Geronimo W. Christ Esq" wrote in message
...
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

I wonder whether dowsing can detect air filled cavities...

I think a better explanation is..."You know"...

You just don't know you know.

Fair enough. But how do you stop yourself from being bull****ted ?

How do you?

"Geronimo W. Christ Esq" wrote in message
...
Mary Fisher wrote:

Shakespeare (that Tudor spit hack) hit the nail on the head - there are
more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your
philosophy

Like Santa Claus ?

How do you determine fact from fiction in your world ? You almost
certainly do it every day without thinking - yet you're questioning other
people doing it right here.

No - you're the one who's questioning. You're the one who claims to be 100%
certain of everything.

Some of us aren't as clever.

I wonder why you're not ruling the world ...

On Tue, 02 May 2006 22:34:46 +0100, "Geronimo W. Christ Esq"
wrote:

Mary Fisher wrote:

It seems to not have a problem working, despite that.
same goes for accupuncture, yet that even works on animals.

And homoeopathy ...

Homepathy doesn't work, and neither does acupuncture. Believing that it
does won't change that.

This is only one case I know but homepathy, acupuncture, 'faith
healing', corsets, manipulation and drugs offered no improvement to my
wifes back problem (much though she was told they would and she
wanted them to) .

An operation did.

Could be down to how strong ones 'beliefs' are .. like tose who gain
soloice 'believing' in a god / whatever ..?

All the best ..

T i m

"T i m" wrote in message
...

This is only one case I know but homepathy, acupuncture, 'faith
healing', corsets, manipulation and drugs offered no improvement to my
wifes back problem (much though she was told they would and she
wanted them to) .

Nothing is guaranteed for any process.

An operation did.

Even surgery isn't always 100% successful. Your wife was one of the many
lucky people for which it is.

Spouse has had no improvement for his condition by surgery or acupuncture
(which he didn't believe in) or drugs.

When I was diagnosed with cancer I was told by some well meaning friends
that I'd be alright becauseI had a 'positive attitude'. Well let me tell you
that a positive attitude doesn't cure cancer but it does make the rest of
your life worth living.

Could be down to how strong ones 'beliefs' are .. like tose who gain
soloice 'believing' in a god / whatever ..?

Hmm. I don't know any believer who is comfortable, it's very demanding!

Mary

In article ,
Mary Fisher wrote:

"Geronimo W. Christ Esq" wrote in message
...
Mary Fisher wrote:

Your beliefs are as valido as those of the rest of us.

Mary, what do beliefs have to do with it ? This is not religion or faith.

Nobody has ever shown that dowsing works

That's what you believe.

Please give a reference to a double-blind experiment that confirms what you
are saying. When you cannot please accept that you are wrong and please stop
making false claims.

--
John Cartmell john@ followed by finnybank.com 0845 006 8822
Qercus magazine FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527 www.finnybank.com
Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing

On 2 May 2006 16:29:36 -0700, wrote:

Geronimo W. Christ Esq wrote:
wrote:

It seems to not have a problem working, despite that.

Lots of things have no yet known explanation.

The reason why dowsing appears to work is well understood.

ok, tell us why I got 12 answers out of 12 right when I tried it. I
sure dont know. It could be chance, but from that data the odds appear
to be just 0.5^12 that it is.


So, do we 'believe' that 'we' have some way of sensing (say) water
running below ground and the sensing of that is indicated by
subconcious movements of our hands to bring the rods together?

Or is it that the rods move on their own being 'powered' by this
unknown force through us or otherwise?

ie, If we mounted the two rods in a single (arm spaced) piece of wood
(so 'we' couldn't influence the rods independantly) would it still
work?

If so then in theory if we knew how to sense the cause of the moving
rods we wouldn't need them at all?

Walk across field, sense something, point at ground sort of thing?

Don't some animals dig holes in the ground to find water? If so, how
do they know where to dig ... experience or luck maybe .. where do the
get coat hangers from? ;-)

All the best ..

T i m

In article ,
Mary Fisher wrote:
Nothing is guaranteed for any process.

But you are promoting a process which cannot be shown to work, has no reason
to work, for which there is evidence that it has ever worked, and for which
there is reason to suppose that it cannot work.

There are simple tests that will confirm its efficacy (if that exists) but,
following previous failures, those promoting it are now reluctant to put it to
further test - but that doesn't stop them (and you) continuing to make false
and misleading claims. I've no worry about your living in a fantasy world but
for two reasons:
1. You miseducate and mislead the vulnerable - children & those who are ill;
2. You contaminate other (good) ideas that you support.

--
John Cartmell john@ followed by finnybank.com 0845 006 8822
Qercus magazine FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527 www.finnybank.com
Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing

"T i m" wrote in message
...

Don't some animals dig holes in the ground to find water? If so, how
do they know where to dig ... experience or luck maybe .. where do the
get coat hangers from? ;-)

They go in the wardrobe, take the fur coats off and there they are!

Mary

All the best ..

T i m

Mary Fisher wrote:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
Mary Fisher wrote:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...

Almost all of the psychic and paranormal stuff ...
You consider dowsing psychic and paranormal?

In the context of it 'not answering to the known laws of physics etc' yes.

So how do YOU decide what is categorised as 'almost all' ... ?


Same way I decide that 'almost all of those plants are dead' or 'almost
all people have two eyes'

Mary Fisher wrote:
"T i m" wrote in message
...
This is only one case I know but homepathy, acupuncture, 'faith
healing', corsets, manipulation and drugs offered no improvement to my
wifes back problem (much though she was told they would and she
wanted them to) .

Nothing is guaranteed for any process.

It is, in science.

An operation did.

Even surgery isn't always 100% successful. Your wife was one of the many
lucky people for which it is.

Spouse has had no improvement for his condition by surgery or acupuncture
(which he didn't believe in) or drugs.

When I was diagnosed with cancer I was told by some well meaning friends
that I'd be alright becauseI had a 'positive attitude'. Well let me tell you
that a positive attitude doesn't cure cancer but it does make the rest of
your life worth living.
Could be down to how strong ones 'beliefs' are .. like tose who gain
soloice 'believing' in a god / whatever ..?

Hmm. I don't know any believer who is comfortable, it's very demanding!

Mary

T i m wrote:
On 2 May 2006 16:29:36 -0700, wrote:

Geronimo W. Christ Esq wrote:
wrote:

It seems to not have a problem working, despite that.
Lots of things have no yet known explanation.
The reason why dowsing appears to work is well understood.
ok, tell us why I got 12 answers out of 12 right when I tried it. I
sure dont know. It could be chance, but from that data the odds appear
to be just 0.5^12 that it is.


So, do we 'believe' that 'we' have some way of sensing (say) water
running below ground and the sensing of that is indicated by
subconcious movements of our hands to bring the rods together?


I'd say yes.

Or is it that the rods move on their own being 'powered' by this
unknown force through us or otherwise?

ie, If we mounted the two rods in a single (arm spaced) piece of wood
(so 'we' couldn't influence the rods independantly) would it still
work?

If so then in theory if we knew how to sense the cause of the moving
rods we wouldn't need them at all?

Walk across field, sense something, point at ground sort of thing?

Don't some animals dig holes in the ground to find water? If so, how
do they know where to dig ... experience or luck maybe .. where do the
get coat hangers from? ;-)

Smell. You can smell water. You can smell an awful lot, but we ignore
99.99% of what we smell.



All the best ..

T i m

John Cartmell wrote:
In article ,
Mary Fisher wrote:
Nothing is guaranteed for any process.

But you are promoting a process which cannot be shown to work, has no reason
to work, for which there is evidence that it has ever worked, and for which
there is reason to suppose that it cannot work.

There are simple tests that will confirm its efficacy (if that exists) but,
following previous failures, those promoting it are now reluctant to put it to
further test - but that doesn't stop them (and you) continuing to make false
and misleading claims. I've no worry about your living in a fantasy world but
for two reasons:
1. You miseducate and mislead the vulnerable - children & those who are ill;
2. You contaminate other (good) ideas that you support.

--
John Cartmell

Yes I agree there is a serious side. It doesn't matter if a few twerps
wander around a field with forked twigs (they'd do better with a metal
detector) or if someone takes lots of homeopathic 'remedies' (100%
water so quite safe up to say half a gallon per day).
But it does matter if you are setting a stupid example to the young or
feeble minded. It matters greatly if you are ill and in need of real
medical help but taking advice from quacks, charlatans and that great
army of alternative 'remedy' fraudsters, counsellors etc etc.
Thats where it gets distasteful - they prey on the hypochondriacs, weak
bodied, feeble minded, needy, and make loads of money.

cheers
Jacob

On Wed, 03 May 2006 16:47:23 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:


So, do we 'believe' that 'we' have some way of sensing (say) water
running below ground and the sensing of that is indicated by
subconcious movements of our hands to bring the rods together?


I'd say yes.

An untapped 'sense' then?


Don't some animals dig holes in the ground to find water? If so, how
do they know where to dig ... experience or luck maybe .. where do the
get coat hangers from? ;-)

Smell. You can smell water. You can smell an awful lot, but we ignore
99.99% of what we smell.

How do 'we' know we are only conscious of .01% of what's available to
us (assuming also there is much more that we can't smell that animals
can).

All the best ..

T i m