wrote in message
ups.com...

Mary Fisher wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

Mary Fisher wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...
If dowsing worked it would be a very valuable skill - for ordinary
purposes such as finding water pipes etc let alone the exotic such
as
finding gold, buried treasure and so on. So any dowser could earn a
bomb. In which case they would advertise their services. There
aren't
any in the yellow pages. There aren't any (convincing) on the net.
Where are they? The answer is that there aren't any - it doesn't
work.
However there many service industries who regularly need to search
for
pipes. cables etc etc. They don't use dowsers.

You know that? You know that none of them uses dowsers?

You're wrong.

I researched it in some detail years ago when looking for a well where
we lived in Wales. We actually used a recommended local dowser who did
a convincing demo with dipping twigs etc. He chose the same place for
the well that I had already guessed as suitable by virtue of location,
greener grass etc. We also asked a local 'water engineer' who suggested
an even better place for a well, which we eventually used. He was very
rude about dowsers.
We asked the water board for advice also. They said that wells or
boreholes were obtainable virtually everywhere if you dug deep enough
into 'the shales and flags of the Upper Wenlock' - so we all would have
been right.
Since then I have made a point of asking any water/gas/drainage worker
I have encountered if they would use dowsers and they all said of
course not.
There are 'dowsers' on the net if you google but they are obviously
new-age fruitcakes to a man!
I'm interested in the subject because I'm interested in why people
believe nonsense such as homeopathy, santa claus, fairies, etc etc. and
God of course.
It's important because modern politics such as the Iraq war is driven
by Bush and Blair both believers in dangerous religious nonsense.
Dowsing and all that crap is the thin end of a big dangerous wedge!

cheers

Jacob

Your beliefs are as valid as those of the rest of us.

Mary

I don't have beliefs.

Just that the rest of us are fruit cakes!

HAHAHAHA!!!!!

Mary

cheers

Jacob

In article ,
Mary Fisher wrote:
[about homeopathy]
Our daughter's animals must be more intelligent than we thought if they
understand the 'placebo effect'.

If you don't know how the placebo effect can work on animals then you
shouldn't be commenting on it. It does. It's well documented.

Now if you were to point to a double-blind experiment that has worked on
animals (inc humans) then please point it out. AFAIK there have been NONE.

--
John Cartmell john@ followed by finnybank.com 0845 006 8822
Qercus magazine FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527 www.finnybank.com
Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing

In article ,
Mary Fisher wrote:
But has anyone here done dowsing?

Why doesn't the rod point straight to your body given the amount of water
it contains?

--
*Sleep with a photographer and watch things develop

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Mary Fisher wrote:
But has anyone here done dowsing?

Why doesn't the rod point straight to your body given the amount of water
it contains?

"It knows".

I wonder whether dowsing can detect air filled cavities...

"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
t...

"Geronimo W. Christ Esq" wrote in message
...
Harry Bloomfield wrote:

No, but I know of a very convincing person who has done it.

It's nonsense. What's the explanation for dowsing in terms of the known
laws of physics ?

What's the explanation for life in terms of the *known* laws of physics?
Or death, come to that?

That's an easy one.
Its down to Chemistry.

There is nothing special about life.. look at how many people make babies
every year its easy and doesn't even need practice.

As for dowsing.. I have never seen it work and I have tried it myself.

"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
t...

Yes, in a waking moment in bed I realised that I'd used the wrong word and
intended correcting it this morning. It was a well. She had been told by a
neighbour that there was one but not where, now she does.

I have a well in my garden.
I just need to decide where it would look best and dig it.
It doesn't matter where I dig, it will become a well.

I won't though as my land is 20ft higher than the surrounding land and I
don't want to dig that extra 20ft.

Anyway tap water is a lot safer.

In article ,
Chris Bacon wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Mary Fisher wrote:
But has anyone here done dowsing?

Why doesn't the rod point straight to your body given the amount of water
it contains?

"It knows".

I wonder whether dowsing can detect air filled cavities...

Only if you want it to ...

--
John Cartmell john@ followed by finnybank.com 0845 006 8822
Qercus magazine FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527 www.finnybank.com
Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing

Chris Bacon wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Mary Fisher wrote:
But has anyone here done dowsing?

Why doesn't the rod point straight to your body given the amount of water
it contains?

"It knows".

I wonder whether dowsing can detect air filled cavities...

I think a better explanation is..."You know"...

You just don't know you know.

Almost all of the psychic and paranormal stuff I have read about over
the years is amenable to a single simple explanation..you actually know
a lot more about your environment than you are willing to have admitted
to your conscious mind..sometimes some of it dribbles in through the
cracks, in strange and symbolic ways. As visions, sounds, smells,
feelings of temperature and other strange feelings. Hypnotism reveals
memories that are entirely subconscious and the like.

If you are quite-minded, and practice a-rational observation, its
amazing what is going on in your senses that you certainly didn't put
there yourself..Of course, being entirely subjective, its very hard to
test it OBJECTIVELY.

Some of it can be squeezed into the current rational, materialist
framework..you smelt it, heard it, saw it, subliminally..but a LOT of
stuff that I personally can vouch for, has to be squeezed mighty
hard..knowing who is calling before you pick up the phone and so on..

As to why we don't use it...because its fragile, unreliable and needs a
state of mind that is not very conducive to survival in our modern
world..nevertheless remnants of it still linger in crystal gazing,
scrying, card reading, witch doctoring and other forms of self hypnosis
that do occasionally net results that are somewhat astonishing.

But its a lot easier to install CLI on the phone and have it come up
with a persons name isn't it? :-)

As far as RANDI goes, anyone who wants to win a prize, and demonstrate
his own veracity, is likely to be the worst possible candidate for being
able to do this stuff. High ego levels and paranormal experiences are
anathema.







#

"dennis@home" wrote in message
k...

"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
t...

Yes, in a waking moment in bed I realised that I'd used the wrong word
and intended correcting it this morning. It was a well. She had been told
by a neighbour that there was one but not where, now she does.

I have a well in my garden.
I just need to decide where it would look best and dig it.
It doesn't matter where I dig, it will become a well.

Yes, but this was an existing one with a brick lining!

Anyway tap water is a lot safer.

That's another matter and not always true. Our daughter didn't want to use
the well, just to know where it was.

Mary

"dennis@home" wrote in message
. uk...

"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
t...

"Geronimo W. Christ Esq" wrote in message
...
Harry Bloomfield wrote:

No, but I know of a very convincing person who has done it.

It's nonsense. What's the explanation for dowsing in terms of the known
laws of physics ?

What's the explanation for life in terms of the *known* laws of physics?
Or death, come to that?

That's an easy one.
Its down to Chemistry.

There is nothing special about life.. look at how many people make babies
every year its easy and doesn't even need practice.

I didn't say that it was special, just that the known laws of physics can't
explain it. Nor can the known laws of chemistry, come to that..

As for dowsing.. I have never seen it work and I have tried it myself.

er - that only means that you've never seen it work and that you've tried it
yourself. Nothing else.

Mary

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Mary Fisher wrote:
But has anyone here done dowsing?

Why doesn't the rod point straight to your body given the amount of water
it contains?

Because a) you're not always looking for water and b) you're not looking for
water in your body.

Mary

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...


Almost all of the psychic and paranormal stuff ...

You consider dowsing psychic and paranormal?

Mary

In article ,
Mary Fisher wrote:

"dennis@home" wrote in message
. uk...

"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
t...

"Geronimo W. Christ Esq" wrote in message
...
Harry Bloomfield wrote:

No, but I know of a very convincing person who has done it.

It's nonsense. What's the explanation for dowsing in terms of the known
laws of physics ?

What's the explanation for life in terms of the *known* laws of physics?
Or death, come to that?

That's an easy one.
Its down to Chemistry.

There is nothing special about life.. look at how many people make babies
every year its easy and doesn't even need practice.

I didn't say that it was special, just that the known laws of physics can't
explain it. Nor can the known laws of chemistry, come to that..

Not when limited by your knowledge and understanding.

As for dowsing.. I have never seen it work and I have tried it myself.

er - that only means that you've never seen it work and that you've tried it
yourself. Nothing else.

But you haven't seen a demonstration that proves that it works. [Objective.
Seeing someone find an object and claim that it was done by dowsing is *not*
the same as seeing dowsing work.]

I cannot think of a double-blind experiment for dowsing that would be accepted
by believers - but it's quite possible to devise a scheme for your other
favourite - homeopathy. Are you willing to back such an experiment - or do you
insist on believing in it despite there being no reason for that belief?

--
John Cartmell john@ followed by finnybank.com 0845 006 8822
Qercus magazine FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527 www.finnybank.com
Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing

In article ,
Mary Fisher wrote:

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...


Almost all of the psychic and paranormal stuff ...

You consider dowsing psychic and paranormal?

Psychic - or at least explicable through the psychology of the dowser and
audience rather than any material force. No need to invoke 'paranormal' as
it's explicable through very normal effects.

--
John Cartmell john@ followed by finnybank.com 0845 006 8822
Qercus magazine FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527 www.finnybank.com
Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing

The message
from Chris Bacon contains these words:

I wonder whether dowsing can detect air filled cavities...

You thinking of searching for new popstars?

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

Mary Fisher wrote:
Owain mentioned dowsing on the Drain flies thread. I've never heard of drain
flies!

But has anyone here done dowsing?

As a kid we (my brother and I) did an experiment whereby you create a
pair of dowsing/divining rods from a straightened coat hanger and make
handles from the outsides of old biros. (makes for easy pivoting of the
dowsing rods)

The trick was one person left the room, the other placed a coin
somewhere under the thick rug, then the dowser came back into the room
and walked about over the rug.

Every time the rods would only touch when the coin was directly under
the dowser. IIRC it was always between the heels.

As a further more recent un-explainable phenomena, about 3 years ago we
received a free dowsing(?) or is it divining pendant from one of those
"mystic" series of magazines..... anyway, by chance I decided to hold
the pendant over a small pebble on the shop counter. The
pendant/plumb/whatever started to move along the same line of the
visible layers in the pebble. On rotating the pebble, the pendant
stopped and changed direction again to the same plain at the pebbles layers.

This happened for myself and my very skeptical partner, and could be
repeated with eyes shut, blindfolded and through any number of pebble
rotations.

Seems everyone has the ability whether a believer or complete skeptic.

Couldn't see much purpose for the above, so haven't played with it
since, but I'm convinced if you ask in your mind for whatever method to
find whatever item you'll be remarkably surprised by the results.


--
http://gymratz.co.uk - Best Gym Equipment & Bodybuilding Supplements UK.
http://trade-price-supplements.co.uk - TRADE PRICED SUPPLEMENTS for ALL!
http://fitness-equipment-uk.com - UK's No.1 Fitness Equipment Suppliers.
http://Water-Rower.co.uk - Worlds best prices on the Worlds best Rower.

"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
t...

There is nothing special about life.. look at how many people make babies
every year its easy and doesn't even need practice.

I didn't say that it was special, just that the known laws of physics
can't explain it. Nor can the known laws of chemistry, come to that..

Of course they can.
What bit don't you understand?


As for dowsing.. I have never seen it work and I have tried it myself.

er - that only means that you've never seen it work and that you've tried
it yourself. Nothing else.

It means that at least one experiment to prove it produced a negative
result.
That is one more than any experiment that has shown a positive result.

Geronimo W. Christ Esq wrote:

It's nonsense. What's the explanation for dowsing in terms of the known
laws of physics ?

And were you taken back in time you'd also believe the world was flat
because no-one had proven otherwise.....

No?

--
http://gymratz.co.uk - Best Gym Equipment & Bodybuilding Supplements UK.
http://trade-price-supplements.co.uk - TRADE PRICED SUPPLEMENTS for ALL!
http://fitness-equipment-uk.com - UK's No.1 Fitness Equipment Suppliers.
http://Water-Rower.co.uk - Worlds best prices on the Worlds best Rower.

"John Cartmell" wrote in message
...

I cannot think of a double-blind experiment for dowsing that would be
accepted
by believers - but it's quite possible to devise a scheme for your other
favourite - homeopathy. Are you willing to back such an experiment - or do
you
insist on believing in it despite there being no reason for that belief?


I understand how homeopathy doesn't work.
If someone offers you cash to disprove their evidence that it does just take
the cash its yours.

Its easy to see how it doesn't.. the whole oceans of the world are
homeopathic cures for everything by now but the illnesses still exist.

"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
t...

"dennis@home" wrote in message
k...

"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
t...

Yes, in a waking moment in bed I realised that I'd used the wrong word
and intended correcting it this morning. It was a well. She had been
told by a neighbour that there was one but not where, now she does.

I have a well in my garden.
I just need to decide where it would look best and dig it.
It doesn't matter where I dig, it will become a well.

Yes, but this was an existing one with a brick lining!

So you have now provided evidence that dowsing can't find water as it is all
over your property at the same depth as your well (the well wouldn't have
any water in if it wasn't).
But you claim it can find brick work.

Its far more likely that the dowser noticed the boards covering the well
than the dowsing actually detecting anything.


Anyway tap water is a lot safer.

That's another matter and not always true. Our daughter didn't want to use
the well, just to know where it was.

One of you has some sense then.

On Tue, 02 May 2006 17:51:53 GMT, "dennis@home"
wrote:

One of you has some sense then.

Very uncharitable D@
You are getting a right miserable old bugger.

"dennis@home" wrote in message
. uk...

I have a well in my garden.
I just need to decide where it would look best and dig it.
It doesn't matter where I dig, it will become a well.

Yes, but this was an existing one with a brick lining!

So you have now provided evidence that dowsing can't find water as it is
all over your property at the same depth as your well (the well wouldn't
have any water in if it wasn't).
But you claim it can find brick work.

Not at all.I was looking for a WELL on a map. Wells aren't always brick
lined.

Its far more likely that the dowser noticed the boards covering the well
than the dowsing actually detecting anything.

There weren't any.You really shouldn't make assumptions:-) Your belief
systems areshowing...

""Pet @ www.gymratz.co.uk ;¬)"" wrote in message
news:OPM5g.63033

Seems everyone has the ability whether a believer or complete skeptic.

I've heard that too. I've never felt the need to test it.

Couldn't see much purpose for the above, so haven't played with it since,
but I'm convinced if you ask in your mind for whatever method to find
whatever item you'll be remarkably surprised by the results.

Quite.

Shakespeare (that Tudor spit hack) hit the nail on the head - there are
more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your
philosophy

Mary

In article , dennis@home
wrote:

"John Cartmell" wrote in message
...

I cannot think of a double-blind experiment for dowsing that would be
accepted by believers - but it's quite possible to devise a scheme for
your other favourite - homeopathy. Are you willing to back such an
experiment - or do you insist on believing in it despite there being no
reason for that belief?


I understand how homeopathy doesn't work. If someone offers you cash to
disprove their evidence that it does just take the cash its yours.

I was just wondering how much Mary was willing to bet on it! ;-)

--
John Cartmell john@ followed by finnybank.com 0845 006 8822
Qercus magazine FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527 www.finnybank.com
Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing

Guy King wrote:
The message from Chris Bacon contains these words:
I wonder whether dowsing can detect air filled cavities...

You thinking of searching for new popstars?

I hadn't thought of that. Maybe it would detect Mr. P., or others
of his ilk. YKwhoIM.

Geronimo W. Christ Esq expressed precisely :
Harry Bloomfield wrote:

No, but I know of a very convincing person who has done it.

It's nonsense. What's the explanation for dowsing in terms of the known laws
of physics ?

I didn't say whether I believed in it or not, simply that I knew
someone who claimed a great deal of success using the the technique.

--

Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

dennis@home wrote:
"Mary Fisher" wrote...
[wells]
That's another matter and not always true. Our daughter didn't want to use
the well, just to know where it was.

One of you has some sense then.

Naughty Dennis, you'll be "plonked", you will! Then you'll be
sorry - erm - won't you?

Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Geronimo W. Christ Esq expressed precisely :
Harry Bloomfield wrote:

No, but I know of a very convincing person who has done it.
I didn't say whether I believed in it or not, simply that I knew
someone who claimed a great deal of success using the the technique.

--

Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

If you ask him the right questions you will find he is either
fantasising or lieing or simply deranged. We all know nutters like that
- some of them very plausible.

cheers
Jacob

submitted this idea :
Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Geronimo W. Christ Esq expressed precisely :
Harry Bloomfield wrote:

No, but I know of a very convincing person who has done it.
I didn't say whether I believed in it or not, simply that I knew
someone who claimed a great deal of success using the the technique.

--

Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

If you ask him the right questions you will find he is either
fantasising or lieing or simply deranged. We all know nutters like that
- some of them very plausible.

I would not describe as a lier, a nutter or even a fantasiser. He is a
well studied gentleman who has a great deal of respect in his local
area, for both his knowledge and his dowsing ability.

--

Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

If you ask him the right questions you will find he is either
fantasising or lieing or simply deranged. We all know nutters like that
- some of them very plausible.

Yes. There are some on this group.




Jacob

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Then you should go for the $1m dollar prize from Randi. Post back and
let us know how you get on. Can I have 10% for letting you know about
it ?

Dowsing works,

It has never been proven that it does work. All tests attempting to
establish this have failed to reach this conclusion.

You could receive $1m by being the first to prove it. Why pass that up ?

but you can't prove you weren't cheating in a RANDI test.

eh ?

John White wrote:

I've tried it with minor success. A friend of mine can do it
consistently though.
http://www.randi.org/library/dowsing/

Thanks for the link. I do believe that people like the James Randi
Educational Foundation are coming at this from the right angle.

That may surprise you, but if you start off by believing that a thing
is true, then the tendency is to do experiments which will prove your
theory. If however you start on the basis that the claims are NOT
true, then by definition the standard of proof has to be much higher.

That is true. Carl Sagan put it well : "extraordinary claims require
extraordinary proof".

On the other hand, as my history teacher used to say, "Absence of
evidence is not evidence of absence".

It works both ways round.

I do not know how it works, I have only seen it done as I described
earlier in this thread. I would however like to know.

There are several theories on Wikipedia about why it appears to work,
sometimes. In practice under controlled conditions it seldom works.

wrote:

Does dowsing work? I tried it once out of curiosity and was surprised
to get results, but would be truly unhappy to see someone charging a
client for it.

You would only say that if you didn't really believe that it worked. It
sounds like you think it was more down to chance.

Anyone who believes it really does work could be a million dollars
richer by demonstrating it under test conditions.

Its at best way out there. If its your last chance, cant
hurt to try it.

As others in the thread have said, there is water everywhere, it is a
matter how deep you dig.

John White wrote:

If your friend can demonstrate the alleged ability under scientific
conditions he is up for $1,000,000.

Why would he want to do that?

You're asking why would someone want to win a million bucks ?

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Geronimo W. Christ Esq wrote:
Harry Bloomfield wrote:

No, but I know of a very convincing person who has done it.

It's nonsense. What's the explanation for dowsing in terms of the
known laws of physics ?

There is none.

It seems to not have a problem working, despite that.

It would be easy to judge whether it worked or not, if we defined what
"working" actually meant.

If you drill deep enough in any random patch of ground you'll eventually
hit the water table. You'll do that without doing any dowsing. So
precisely what "works" ?

wrote:

It seems to not have a problem working, despite that.

Lots of things have no yet known explanation.

The reason why dowsing appears to work is well understood. On the other
hand, the reason why people persist in believing something which is
demonstrably nonsense is not.

The workings of the human
body are the prime example.

On the contrary, the workings of most parts of the human body are well
understood.

There is genuine evidence against dowsing,

There is no evidence against dowsing. There is a total absence of
verifiable evidence showing that it works. That is the problem.

but more often its invalid arguments that are offered.

I'm not arguing with dowsing, merely asking for evidence that it works.
To date none exists. The fact that $1m is up for grabs and still no-one
can prove that it works suggests that there are major problems with the
concept.

John Rumm wrote:

It seems to not have a problem working, despite that.

same goes for accupuncture, yet that even works on animals.

Really now. How did you establish that ?

Mary Fisher wrote:

Your beliefs are as valido as those of the rest of us.

Mary, what do beliefs have to do with it ? This is not religion or faith.

Nobody has ever shown that dowsing works despite the fact that in doing
so, they stand to gain $1m.

Mary Fisher wrote:

It seems to not have a problem working, despite that.
same goes for accupuncture, yet that even works on animals.

And homoeopathy ...

Homepathy doesn't work, and neither does acupuncture. Believing that it
does won't change that.

Mary Fisher wrote:

Our daughter's animals must be more intelligent than we thought if they
understand the 'placebo effect'.

It was obviously smart enough to tell you it was feeling better.