T i m wrote:
On Wed, 03 May 2006 16:47:23 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

So, do we 'believe' that 'we' have some way of sensing (say) water
running below ground and the sensing of that is indicated by
subconcious movements of our hands to bring the rods together?


I'd say yes.

An untapped 'sense' then?

Don't some animals dig holes in the ground to find water? If so, how
do they know where to dig ... experience or luck maybe .. where do the
get coat hangers from? ;-)

Smell. You can smell water. You can smell an awful lot, but we ignore
99.99% of what we smell.

How do 'we' know we are only conscious of .01% of what's available to us
(assuming also there is much more that we can't smell that animals can).

There are numerous reports of people being able to percieve with "the
wrong" sensory organs, physical properties normally felt or measured(?)
with those we take for granted.

Perhaps that is the basis for genius? One obvious clue to this is the
way that water dowsers percieve their finds. What drives professional
geologists up the wall is that water is found in layers of strata.

Dowsers claim to have found "the place to dig" in other words some sort
of pipeline of water like streams. One would think that they would
"find" the whole resevoir which might straddle several fields not just
a plot of ground the size of a man-hole cover.

Bu it would seem that they never do. If they were charlattans they
would widen their area wouldn't they? I'd make my target as big and/or
vague as I could, if I was conning someone.

owdman@ wrote:
It doesn't matter if a few twerps
wander around a field with forked twigs (they'd do better with a metal
detector) or if someone takes lots of homeopathic 'remedies' (100%
water so quite safe up to say half a gallon per day).

Not so "homopathetic" remedies. I knew a chap whose wife sold
these things to "practicioners". The mark-up was *unbelieveable*!
What they sold it on for as part of their business I dread to
think. This stuff was so cheap to buy (and in the right size
bottles) that we got ****ed on it - it was between 40% and 60%
ABV! No weird effects noticed.

Owain wrote:

If the OP starts wandering round the garden and two pieces of coathanger
start oscillating like a Dalek's antennae then he may have found his
drain leak. If they don't he hasn't lost anything.

On the contrary, a lot of time could be wasted chasing red herrings.

T i m wrote:
How do 'we' know we are only conscious of .01% of what's available to
us (assuming also there is much more that we can't smell that animals
can).

Not sure what your point is. It's hard to hear bats. Badgers can't
see red light. Our eyesight is as good in the dark as that of a cat.
Various instruments can detect what none of us, or any other animal,
can detect. Also, we've a built-in bullsht detector, and the reason
to conduct valid tests to see what works, or doesn't. Dowsing doesn't.

wrote:

The reason why dowsing appears to work is well understood.

ok, tell us why I got 12 answers out of 12 right when I tried it. I
sure dont know. It could be chance, but from that data the odds appear
to be just 0.5^12 that it is.

Like a kid who claims he saw Santa's sleigh one Xmas eve it isn't
possible to respond to this meaningfully without information on the test
conducted and the observed results.

I'm not arguing with dowsing, merely asking for evidence that it works.
To date none exists. The fact that $1m is up for grabs and still no-one
can prove that it works suggests that there are major problems with the
concept.

Undoubtedly. But depite that, many people have successfully dowsed for
drains, water pipes and so on. Thats the mystery.

I don't think it's a mystery at all; dowsing isn't a profession and you
won't find anyone in the Yellow Pages offering it. That's because if you
tried to sell it with the promise that it worked you'd likely be
prosecuted for fraud. Under observed test circumstances it has not been
shown to work.

Coincidence is probable, not unusual.

Chris Bacon wrote:

You're in the wrong job. If it's that good you could earn lots
and lots of money finding cables, pipes, leaks, etc. under roads
in towns more reliably than any other cost effective method.

I wonder why dowsers aren't employed in very large numbers?

Ah, but dowsers don't need money. The simple knowledge that they can
wave a stick and magically find things sustains them more than material
or financial concerns.

Going by the responses elsewhere in this thread, if someone left a
million quid in their doorstep, they wouldn't know what to do with it.
They couldn't think of a charity or cause which could use the free donation.

Weatherlawyer wrote:

Dowsers claim to have found "the place to dig" in other words some sort
of pipeline of water like streams. One would think that they would
"find" the whole resevoir which might straddle several fields not just
a plot of ground the size of a man-hole cover.

Oil companies spend vast quantities of money on satellite systems and
other sophisticated devices to locate oil fields. Yet these folks and
their magical powers claim to be able to find them by waving a stick.

Bu it would seem that they never do. If they were charlattans they
would widen their area wouldn't they? I'd make my target as big and/or
vague as I could, if I was conning someone.

The target with dowsing is indeed very big and very vague. It's "dig
here and you'll find water" which is true in almost all cases.

Mary Fisher wrote:

I'm not arguing with dowsing, merely asking for evidence that it works.

Why is it so important to you?

Just fed up with people being ripped off and messed around by the
bull**** in the world.

Mary Fisher wrote:
"Geronimo W. Christ Esq" wrote in message
...
Mary Fisher wrote:

Your beliefs are as valido as those of the rest of us.
Mary, what do beliefs have to do with it ? This is not religion or faith.

Nobody has ever shown that dowsing works

That's what you believe.

There are no documented test cases showing dowsing in existence. Feel
free to correct me.

despite the fact that in doing so, they stand to gain $1m.

Why is money so important to you?

There are a zillion things I could think of to do with a million quid.
But if I couldn't, I could think of plenty of charities who could use it.

Mary Fisher wrote:

It was obviously smart enough to tell you it was feeling better.

You don't seem to know much about animal conditions.

What are you, Dr Dolittle ?

wrote:

But it does matter if you are setting a stupid example to the young or
feeble minded. It matters greatly if you are ill and in need of real
medical help but taking advice from quacks, charlatans and that great
army of alternative 'remedy' fraudsters, counsellors etc etc.
Thats where it gets distasteful - they prey on the hypochondriacs, weak
bodied, feeble minded, needy, and make loads of money.

That is what I have a real problem with. The dowsing arguments being put
forward here are not in this league, no reasonable person could say that
they are. But I'd hate the idea of someone with no real opinion either
way wasting a lot of time and effort and feeling like an idiot.

In Belfast a few months ago there was a poor chap who went missing, and
the family brought in a psychic to try to locate him. The psychic said
that the man was dead (everyone had assumed that) and was somewhere dark
and watery (the police had been searching the river near to where he was
last seen for some time) and was in a bad way (well, no ****).
Discussing this with a few friends I got pretty much the same responses
I see here - how do you know she isn't psychic ? What if you don't
understand how the world really works ? What if this really helps the
family ?

Nobody knows everything about how the world works, it'll be a long time
before we do. Unfortunately it's not difficult to recognize flaws in the
human character, and they include gullibility and the willingness to con
people. Skepticism is the only mechanism we have to stop ourselves being
hurt, one way or another, by lies and trickery. It should be taught in
schools.

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...

You can smell an awful lot, but we ignore 99.99% of what we smell.

evidence?

Just for the sceptics around here :-)

Mary

john2 wrote:

We know about things like magnetic fields, electric fields, and
electromagnetic radiation, which along with other things are the names
we give to the forces at work when things interact.

No, we know hardly anything at all about any of these fundamental
forces, especially gravity. We have mathematical formulas that predict
how they work under different conditions, but that isn't an explanation.

We know about how the forces interact based on our observations, which
is not I am talking about.

I am not talking about what the forces actually are.

Thats why they keep building huge particle machines in Switzerland - to
test out theories.

You don't need a supercollider to know that if you accidentally stub
your toe on the corner of a door, it will hurt. You don't need to
observe neutrinos in a bubble tank in order to know that a magnet will
pick up screws. Daily, observable things are repeatable and well
understood.

Mary Fisher wrote:

You just don't know you know.
Fair enough. But how do you stop yourself from being bull****ted ?

How do you?

For Christ's sake read the thread, Mary. I ask questions and require
explanation and substantiation for extraordinary claims which cannot be
demonstrated.

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Mary Fisher wrote:
Nothing is guaranteed for any process.


It is, in science.

What a strange thing for a "philosopher" to say - if you
put your cat in a sealed box, is it alive or dead?
:.)

"Nothing is guaranteed for any process", it is simply *extremely*
likely to have a certain result.

--
BigEgg
Hack to size. Hammer to fit. Weld to join. Grind to shape. Paint to cover.
http://www.workshop-projects.com - Books, Articles & Plans
http://www.stores.ebay.co.uk/honyaservices - Tools & Miscellanea

Dave Fawthrop wrote:
On Mon, 1 May 2006 21:30:25 +0100, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:

|Owain mentioned dowsing on the Drain flies thread. I've never heard of drain
|flies!
|
|But has anyone here done dowsing?

Yes long ago, Very strange things happened, but I was unable to produce
consistent and repeatable results :-(
--
Dave Fawthrop

Don't be a tease - tell us what the strange things were. I like strange
things.

cheers
Jacob

bigegg wrote:
What a strange thing for a "philosopher" to say - if you
put your cat in a sealed box, is it alive or dead?

That is a very simplistic question.

T i m wrote:
On Wed, 03 May 2006 16:47:23 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:


So, do we 'believe' that 'we' have some way of sensing (say) water
running below ground and the sensing of that is indicated by
subconcious movements of our hands to bring the rods together?

I'd say yes.

An untapped 'sense' then?

Don't some animals dig holes in the ground to find water? If so, how
do they know where to dig ... experience or luck maybe .. where do the
get coat hangers from? ;-)
Smell. You can smell water. You can smell an awful lot, but we ignore
99.99% of what we smell.

How do 'we' know we are only conscious of .01% of what's available to
us (assuming also there is much more that we can't smell that animals
can).

Well obviously YOU don't.

Some of us however, have done the experiments and seen for ourselves..


All the best ..

T i m

Geronimo W. Christ Esq wrote:
Mary Fisher wrote:

I'm not arguing with dowsing, merely asking for evidence that it works.

Why is it so important to you?

Just fed up with people being ripped off and messed around by the
bull**** in the world.

In the case of most people who claim psychic powers, they daren't charge
anyway,because its actually considered a fraud.

The glaring exception being alternative medicine.

Mary Fisher wrote:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
You can smell an awful lot, but we ignore 99.99% of what we smell.

evidence?

Just for the sceptics around here :-)

Only personal experience.

Which can never be verified to the satisfaction of someone else.

In discussing thes matters the analogy I always use is of a sailor, with
a boat, who comes to port and says 'there's a whole world out there, but
you have to step off the island and take a boat to see it'
"thats just your says so, wouldn't catch ME getting in one of those
contraptions. Too ****ing dangerous: Besides if I can';t see it from
here, it doesn't exist."




Mary

Geronimo W. Christ Esq wrote:

You don't need a supercollider to know that if you accidentally stub
your toe on the corner of a door, it will hurt. You don't need to
observe neutrinos in a bubble tank in order to know that a magnet will
pick up screws. Daily, observable things are repeatable and well
understood.

Oh? You have no idea how complicated it is and mysterious to be able to
do any of the things you cite.

bigegg wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Mary Fisher wrote:
Nothing is guaranteed for any process.


It is, in science.

What a strange thing for a "philosopher" to say - if you
put your cat in a sealed box, is it alive or dead?
:.)

"Nothing is guaranteed for any process", it is simply *extremely*
likely to have a certain result.


Thats what certainty is...something that has never ever failed to do
what is expected.

Science consists in finding those things as a foundation on which to
constrict a worldview.

Geronimo W. Christ Esq wrote:

The target with dowsing is indeed very big and very vague. It's "dig
here and you'll find water" which is true in almost all cases.

So what's the problem?

Chris Bacon wrote:
bigegg wrote:
What a strange thing for a "philosopher" to say - if you
put your cat in a sealed box, is it alive or dead?

That is a very simplistic question.

It's also a very simple one to answer., It isn't anything until you make
such a judgement call on the cat as to determnine, in human terms, which
of the sets of deadness and aliveness it falls into.

Is the hair on your head alive? Or dead? does it cease to be alive when
you cut it? Where does a cat end? What constitutes a cat in the first
place? Is a cat minus a paw still a cat? Is a cat minus its fur still a cat?

The map is not the territory.

For humans who deal exclusively in maps, the only certainty is that
there are maps, and there may be territory, and their would appear to be
mapmakers.

The territory doesn't really care, one way or the other.

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Chris Bacon wrote:
bigegg wrote:
What a strange thing for a "philosopher" to say - if you
put your cat in a sealed box, is it alive or dead?

That is a very simplistic question.

It's also a very simple one to answer., It isn't anything until you make
such a judgement call on the cat as to determnine, in human terms, which
of the sets of deadness and aliveness it falls into.

What I meant was that it is a very simplistic question compared
to the full version. The answer to the above is just that the
animal is in the same state as when you put it in.

On Wed, 03 May 2006 20:25:15 +0100, "Geronimo W. Christ Esq"
wrote:

Weatherlawyer wrote:

Dowsers claim to have found "the place to dig" in other words some sort
of pipeline of water like streams. One would think that they would
"find" the whole resevoir which might straddle several fields not just
a plot of ground the size of a man-hole cover.

Oil companies spend vast quantities of money on satellite systems and
other sophisticated devices to locate oil fields. Yet these folks and
their magical powers claim to be able to find them by waving a stick.

Yes but what do you do with all the bored rocket scientists then?
There's more of them hanging around than you can shake a stick at.

Bu it would seem that they never do. If they were charlattans they
would widen their area wouldn't they? I'd make my target as big and/or
vague as I could, if I was conning someone.

The target with dowsing is indeed very big and very vague. It's "dig
here and you'll find water" which is true in almost all cases.

--
Regards,
Mike Halmarack

Drop the (EGG) to email me.

On Thu, 04 May 2006 09:33:30 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

T i m wrote:
On Wed, 03 May 2006 16:47:23 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:


So, do we 'believe' that 'we' have some way of sensing (say) water
running below ground and the sensing of that is indicated by
subconcious movements of our hands to bring the rods together?

I'd say yes.

An untapped 'sense' then?

Don't some animals dig holes in the ground to find water? If so, how
do they know where to dig ... experience or luck maybe .. where do the
get coat hangers from? ;-)
Smell. You can smell water. You can smell an awful lot, but we ignore
99.99% of what we smell.

How do 'we' know we are only conscious of .01% of what's available to
us (assuming also there is much more that we can't smell that animals
can).

Well obviously YOU don't.

Eh?

Some of us however, have done the experiments and seen for ourselves..

Have you .. good .. I wasn't contradicting anything .. mearly
reflecting on what you said?

When you said "we ignore 99.99 of what we smell" I wasn't sure if you
were saying we 'subconsiously' ignore it or choose not to smell it
(not bother etc)?

If we could choose what to ignore and what to take notice of, would
our sense of smell be the same as that of animals 'known' to have a
good sense of smell (as you have done the experiments) ;-)

All the best ..

T i m








All the best ..

T i m

Chris Bacon wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Chris Bacon wrote:

bigegg wrote:

What a strange thing for a "philosopher" to say - if you
put your cat in a sealed box, is it alive or dead?


That is a very simplistic question.


It's also a very simple one to answer., It isn't anything until you
make such a judgement call on the cat as to determnine, in human
terms, which of the sets of deadness and aliveness it falls into.


What I meant was that it is a very simplistic question compared
to the full version. The answer to the above is just that the
animal is in the same state as when you put it in.

Is it?
In a *sealed* box?


--
BigEgg
Hack to size. Hammer to fit. Weld to join. Grind to shape. Paint to cover.
http://www.workshop-projects.com - Books, Articles & Plans
http://www.stores.ebay.co.uk/honyaservices - Tools & Miscellanea

Chris Bacon wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Chris Bacon wrote:
bigegg wrote:
What a strange thing for a "philosopher" to say - if you
put your cat in a sealed box, is it alive or dead?

That is a very simplistic question.

It's also a very simple one to answer., It isn't anything until you
make such a judgement call on the cat as to determnine, in human
terms, which of the sets of deadness and aliveness it falls into.

What I meant was that it is a very simplistic question compared
to the full version. The answer to the above is just that the
animal is in the same state as when you put it in.

Not necessarily, depending on how airtight it is and how long its been
in there.

In fact, the one state it will never be in, is the state it was when you
put it in.

T i m wrote:
On Thu, 04 May 2006 09:33:30 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

T i m wrote:
On Wed, 03 May 2006 16:47:23 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:


So, do we 'believe' that 'we' have some way of sensing (say) water
running below ground and the sensing of that is indicated by
subconcious movements of our hands to bring the rods together?

I'd say yes.
An untapped 'sense' then?

Don't some animals dig holes in the ground to find water? If so, how
do they know where to dig ... experience or luck maybe .. where do the
get coat hangers from? ;-)
Smell. You can smell water. You can smell an awful lot, but we ignore
99.99% of what we smell.
How do 'we' know we are only conscious of .01% of what's available to
us (assuming also there is much more that we can't smell that animals
can).
Well obviously YOU don't.

Eh?
Some of us however, have done the experiments and seen for ourselves..

Have you .. good .. I wasn't contradicting anything .. mearly
reflecting on what you said?

When you said "we ignore 99.99 of what we smell" I wasn't sure if you
were saying we 'subconsiously' ignore it or choose not to smell it
(not bother etc)?

Subconsciously.

If we could choose what to ignore and what to take notice of, would
our sense of smell be the same as that of animals 'known' to have a
good sense of smell (as you have done the experiments) ;-)

NO. I think dogs have noses bigger than Barbra Streisand for a reason..:-)

What I mean is that by and large we must be smelling stuff all the time
- but we seldom remark on it even to ourselves.

Chiefly we smell food, other people, and stiff we don't really like,
like **** and mould. Those things we are aware of, because at some level
its still important.

We smell chemicals too. If strong enough.

We seldom say 'I can smell rain' but believe me, you can..

If you garden, you can smell dry earth, and wet earth, and they are
different.

WE are aware of gross pressure changes in aircraft, but its possible to
detect slowly falling barometers as well. We are aware of birdsong, but
nit generally the CONTENT of it, yet an afternoon spent very quietly
just listening, reveals patterns - and those patterns change with the
sun, the temperature and the wind sometimes. As well as the cats
prowling about ;-)

In short we have all the apparatus - and I believe more senses than the
5 we think we have - to enable us to be wild animals in a wild
environment - its just that MOST of this is completely irrelevant in a
modern civilized environment, so we subliminally block it all out, the
way you get used to the roar of traffic..

BUT sometimes bits of it break through in any way they can...you may
'see' ghosts, or auras, or hear voices, or feel cold or apprehensive..or
your dowsing fingers may twitch. Or have weird dreams...Its happened
enough times to me when awake, but mentally exhausted, and not thinking
about anything at all..suddenly something pops into your mind, and its
not just garbage, it relates to what's going on around you in subtle
ways..its the old animal instincts surfacing, because you let them..

I've learnt to trust it enough to act on it, and its saved me from at
least one nasty accident..




All the best ..

T i m






All the best ..

T i m

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Chris Bacon wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Chris Bacon wrote:
bigegg wrote:
What a strange thing for a "philosopher" to say - if you
put your cat in a sealed box, is it alive or dead?

That is a very simplistic question.

It's also a very simple one to answer., It isn't anything until you
make such a judgement call on the cat as to determnine, in human
terms, which of the sets of deadness and aliveness it falls into.

What I meant was that it is a very simplistic question compared
to the full version. The answer to the above is just that the
animal is in the same state as when you put it in.

Not necessarily, depending on how airtight it is and how long its been
in there.

In fact, the one state it will never be in, is the state it was when you
put it in.

And if anyone thinks that the 'Cat Experiment' actualy has anything to do with
cats - then they'd best slink away quietly before they embarrass themselves
further ... ;-)

--
John Cartmell john@ followed by finnybank.com 0845 006 8822
Qercus magazine FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527 www.finnybank.com
Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing

On Thu, 04 May 2006 19:51:20 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:


When you said "we ignore 99.99 of what we smell" I wasn't sure if you
were saying we 'subconsiously' ignore it or choose not to smell it
(not bother etc)?

Subconsciously.

Ok ..

If we could choose what to ignore and what to take notice of, would
our sense of smell be the same as that of animals 'known' to have a
good sense of smell (as you have done the experiments) ;-)

NO. I think dogs have noses bigger than Barbra Streisand for a reason..:-)

lol

What I mean is that by and large we must be smelling stuff all the time
- but we seldom remark on it even to ourselves.

Probably true ..

Chiefly we smell food, other people, and stiff we don't really like,
like **** and mould.

Cigar / fag smoke at about 100 yards .. ;-(

Those things we are aware of, because at some level
its still important.

Understood ..

We smell chemicals too. If strong enough.

We seldom say 'I can smell rain' but believe me, you can..

If you garden, you can smell dry earth, and wet earth, and they are
different.

Or a wet dog / dry dog ;-)

WE are aware of gross pressure changes in aircraft, but its possible to
detect slowly falling barometers as well. We are aware of birdsong, but
nit generally the CONTENT of it, yet an afternoon spent very quietly
just listening, reveals patterns - and those patterns change with the
sun, the temperature and the wind sometimes. As well as the cats
prowling about ;-)

True ..

In short we have all the apparatus - and I believe more senses than the
5 we think we have - to enable us to be wild animals in a wild
environment - its just that MOST of this is completely irrelevant in a
modern civilized environment, so we subliminally block it all out, the
way you get used to the roar of traffic..

Or the local railway track .. ;-)

BUT sometimes bits of it break through in any way they can...you may
'see' ghosts, or auras, or hear voices, or feel cold or apprehensive..or
your dowsing fingers may twitch.

My missus *knows* she has seen the 'spirit' (ghost) of her departed
grandmother. ..?


Or have weird dreams...Its happened
enough times to me when awake, but mentally exhausted, and not thinking
about anything at all..suddenly something pops into your mind, and its
not just garbage, it relates to what's going on around you in subtle
ways..its the old animal instincts surfacing, because you let them..

Hmmmm

I've learnt to trust it enough to act on it, and its saved me from at
least one nasty accident..

I know what you mean .. like a preminition ..

I avoided a nasty accident the other day because I sorta *expected*
someone to do what they did (turn left across me on a roundabout after
entering from the outside lane), preminition or experience in this
case?

All the best ..

T i m

The message
from John Cartmell contains these words:

And if anyone thinks that the 'Cat Experiment' actualy has anything to
do with
cats - then they'd best slink away quietly before they embarrass themselves
further ... ;-)

The whole idea of the thought-experiment was to show how quantum events
/don't/ scale up properly to the macro world.

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

In article , Guy King
wrote:
The message from John Cartmell
contains these words:

And if anyone thinks that the 'Cat Experiment' actualy has anything to do
with cats - then they'd best slink away quietly before they embarrass
themselves further ... ;-)

The whole idea of the thought-experiment was to show how quantum events
/don't/ scale up properly to the macro world.

And whilst science rarely predicts the movement and changes of individuals
it's pretty good at doing so statistically.

--
John Cartmell john@ followed by finnybank.com 0845 006 8822
Qercus magazine FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527 www.finnybank.com
Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing

T i m wrote:
On Thu, 04 May 2006 19:51:20 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
I've learnt to trust it enough to act on it, and its saved me from at
least one nasty accident..

I know what you mean .. like a preminition ..

I avoided a nasty accident the other day because I sorta *expected*
someone to do what they did (turn left across me on a roundabout after
entering from the outside lane), preminition or experience in this
case?

To call something a premonition implies something near magical, call it
premonition or experience, it really is the same thing. "We know more
than we can tell", so are so in the habit of verbalising and
rationalising our sensations that any short circuiting of that process,
trusting our minds/bodies to do the right thing without stopping to
consciously think gets classified as near magical.


David Clark
http://www.publishing.ucl.ac.uk
$replyto = 'an.rnser.is.reqird'

On Thu, 04 May 2006 22:03:41 GMT, DJC
wrote:

T i m wrote:
On Thu, 04 May 2006 19:51:20 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
I've learnt to trust it enough to act on it, and its saved me from at
least one nasty accident..

I know what you mean .. like a preminition ..

I avoided a nasty accident the other day because I sorta *expected*
someone to do what they did (turn left across me on a roundabout after
entering from the outside lane), preminition or experience in this
case?

To call something a premonition implies something near magical, call it
premonition or experience, it really is the same thing. "We know more
than we can tell", so are so in the habit of verbalising and
rationalising our sensations that any short circuiting of that process,
trusting our minds/bodies to do the right thing without stopping to
consciously think gets classified as near magical.

Thanks ;-)

T i m

bigegg wrote:
Chris Bacon wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Chris Bacon wrote:
bigegg wrote:
What a strange thing for a "philosopher" to say - if you
put your cat in a sealed box, is it alive or dead?
That is a very simplistic question.
It's also a very simple one to answer., It isn't anything until you
make such a judgement call on the cat as to determnine, in human
terms, which of the sets of deadness and aliveness it falls into.

What I meant was that it is a very simplistic question compared
to the full version. The answer to the above is just that the
animal is in the same state as when you put it in.

Is it?
In a *sealed* box?

Of course it is, Humpty Dumpty. "The animal is in the same state as
when you put it in".

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Chris Bacon wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Chris Bacon wrote:
bigegg wrote:
What a strange thing for a "philosopher" to say - if you
put your cat in a sealed box, is it alive or dead?
That is a very simplistic question.
It's also a very simple one to answer., It isn't anything until you
make such a judgement call on the cat as to determnine, in human
terms, which of the sets of deadness and aliveness it falls into.

What I meant was that it is a very simplistic question compared
to the full version. The answer to the above is just that the
animal is in the same state as when you put it in.

Not necessarily, depending on how airtight it is and how long its been
in there.

The box was described as "sealed". When you put the cat in, it is in the
same state as it was when you put it in. Can I be plainer? HTH.

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
In short we have all the apparatus - and I believe more senses than
the 5 we think we have - to enable us to be wild animals in a wild
environment - its just that MOST of this is completely irrelevant in a
modern civilized environment, so we subliminally block it all out, the
way you get used to the roar of traffic..

We actually have many more than 5 senses, more like 12.

Sight, sound, taste, touch & smell being the well known, pain, balance,
thirst, hunger, thermoception (the sense of heat & cold), kinaesthesia
(movement) and proprioception (body awareness).


--
Dave
The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk
01634 717930
07850 597257

Geronimo W. Christ Esq wrote:

I don't think it's a mystery at all; dowsing isn't a profession and you
won't find anyone in the Yellow Pages offering it. That's because if you

Erm, in fact you will - under "Water Diviners". (gets 17 hits on Yell)


--
Cheers,

John.

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