On Mon, 30 May 2005 15:02:39 +0100, doozer
babbled like a waterfall and
said:

I was just reading a thread about planes and it reminded me that I was
going to ask you guys about them. I'm no expert with wood at the moment
so take it easy with the technical stuff ) (I've made book shelves and
a cupboard but they have been bulky and lacking finesse).

I was up at the NEC a little while back for the home and house building
show and I saw a French guy there selling the "Wonder Boy Plane" (or
something like that) it was a small plane that took Stanley knife blades
and came in a kit with had various attachments to convert it into
different types of plane. I really liked the look of it but I thought I
would find out more first so I didn't get one there and then thinking I
could pick one up on line. So does anyone know what I am talking about
and where I could get one? If you do know and think they are pants what
would you suggest as an alternative?

If it's any help it was similar in design to this
http://www.axminster.co.uk/product.a...=23088&recno=6 but it looks
better built.

Many Thanks
Graham

I would regard them as junk for all but very simple work like putting
a 2 mil chamfer on an edge of softwood.

I suppose sharpening is your problem? It certainly is mine.

This has been my salvation over the years:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...4781 382&rd=1

A decent oil stone or even wet/dry on a firm work surface works well
with one of these.

In article ,
doozer wrote:
I was up at the NEC a little while back for the home and house building
show and I saw a French guy there selling the "Wonder Boy Plane" (or
something like that) it was a small plane that took Stanley knife blades
and came in a kit with had various attachments to convert it into
different types of plane.

A Stanley knife blade simply isn't rigid enough for a serious plane. Nor
is it sharp enough.

--
*Gargling is a good way to see if your throat leaks.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
doozer wrote:

I was up at the NEC a little while back for the home and house building
show and I saw a French guy there selling the "Wonder Boy Plane" (or
something like that) it was a small plane that took Stanley knife blades
and came in a kit with had various attachments to convert it into
different types of plane.


A Stanley knife blade simply isn't rigid enough for a serious plane. Nor
is it sharp enough.


I'm not saying your wrong but there was a lengthy demonstration which
seemed to indicate that the blade was easily sharp enough. I admit that
he may have sharpened it a little more before hand but I don't think so.

As for it not being rigid enough it was pretty firmly held in place so
that only the blade portion was exposed. I would be surprised if
strength was an issue.

In article ,
doozer wrote:
A Stanley knife blade simply isn't rigid enough for a serious plane.
Nor is it sharp enough.


I'm not saying your wrong but there was a lengthy demonstration which
seemed to indicate that the blade was easily sharp enough. I admit that
he may have sharpened it a little more before hand but I don't think so.

These demonstrations are always designed to show the product at its best.
So nothing to do with real life use. ;-)

As for it not being rigid enough it was pretty firmly held in place so
that only the blade portion was exposed. I would be surprised if
strength was an issue.

Well, just look at the average plane blade. It's supported as close to the
cutting edge as possible. But is many, many times thicker than a Stanley
knife blade.

--
*Why don't sheep shrink when it rains?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
says...
In article ,
doozer wrote:
A Stanley knife blade simply isn't rigid enough for a serious plane.
Nor is it sharp enough.


I'm not saying your wrong but there was a lengthy demonstration which
seemed to indicate that the blade was easily sharp enough. I admit that
he may have sharpened it a little more before hand but I don't think so.

These demonstrations are always designed to show the product at its best.
So nothing to do with real life use. ;-)

As for it not being rigid enough it was pretty firmly held in place so
that only the blade portion was exposed. I would be surprised if
strength was an issue.

Well, just look at the average plane blade. It's supported as close to the
cutting edge as possible. But is many, many times thicker than a Stanley
knife blade.


In the back, the very back, of my tool cupboard is a Stanley replaceable
blade rebate plane I bought many years ago. It never worked for me.
Chatter was the main problem, which is of course down to both the
thickness of the blade and the clamping system, frog etc.
--
Paul Mc Cann

Paul Mc Cann wrote:
In article ,
says...

In article ,
doozer wrote:

A Stanley knife blade simply isn't rigid enough for a serious plane.
Nor is it sharp enough.


I'm not saying your wrong but there was a lengthy demonstration which
seemed to indicate that the blade was easily sharp enough. I admit that
he may have sharpened it a little more before hand but I don't think so.

These demonstrations are always designed to show the product at its best.
So nothing to do with real life use. ;-)


As for it not being rigid enough it was pretty firmly held in place so
that only the blade portion was exposed. I would be surprised if
strength was an issue.

Well, just look at the average plane blade. It's supported as close to the
cutting edge as possible. But is many, many times thicker than a Stanley
knife blade.



In the back, the very back, of my tool cupboard is a Stanley replaceable
blade rebate plane I bought many years ago. It never worked for me.
Chatter was the main problem, which is of course down to both the
thickness of the blade and the clamping system, frog etc.

Ok I'm convinced. I didn't buy one at the show simply because I have
seen other people buy "wonder tools" that turned out to just be rubbish.
I am of the opinion that after several hundred years of refinement the
plane is probably close n as good as it's going to get.

Anyway can someone point me in the direction of some decent planes at
affordable prices ;o) and perhaps tell me what to look for in a good plane?

Thanks.

--

.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`· Shallow Sea Aquatics .¸¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·
.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯ http://www.shallowsea.com ¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`

On Tue, 31 May 2005 08:36:56 +0100, doozer
wrote:



Ok I'm convinced. I didn't buy one at the show simply because I have
seen other people buy "wonder tools" that turned out to just be rubbish.
I am of the opinion that after several hundred years of refinement the
plane is probably close n as good as it's going to get.

Anyway can someone point me in the direction of some decent planes at
affordable prices ;o) and perhaps tell me what to look for in a good plane?

Thanks.


Have a look at www.axminster.co.uk

Navigate through Hand Tools -- Planes, Spokeshaves and Scrapers --
Planes, Bench

I would avoid the really cheap Axminster own brand ones.

The Stanley ones are reasonable and I also read a reasonable review of
the Footprint ones.

If you really do want a wonder tool that is not a "wonder tool" then
look at the Lie-Nielsen planes. Whether you think that they are
affordable depends on your budget of course :-)




--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diybanter.com

In article ,
doozer writes:
Ok I'm convinced. I didn't buy one at the show simply because I have
seen other people buy "wonder tools" that turned out to just be rubbish.
I am of the opinion that after several hundred years of refinement the
^^^^^^^
Several thousand years actually -- the romans used them.

plane is probably close n as good as it's going to get.

Anyway can someone point me in the direction of some decent planes at
affordable prices ;o) and perhaps tell me what to look for in a good plane?

What do you want it for? Nowadays, I mostly use an electric
plane, but they aren't suitable for everything. 20 years ago,
I used a hand plane quite often, but on more recent attempts
to do so, I find I can't use it any more. Not sure if it's
because I've forgotten how to, or if it just doesn't suit
todays fast produced timber with the grain going in all
directions. I also have a spokeshave for going into corners.

--
Andrew Gabriel

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Well, just look at the average plane blade. It's supported as close to the
cutting edge as possible.

Perhaps you'd care to expand on that superficially wrong statement?

Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
doozer writes:

Ok I'm convinced. I didn't buy one at the show simply because I have
seen other people buy "wonder tools" that turned out to just be rubbish.
I am of the opinion that after several hundred years of refinement the

^^^^^^^
Several thousand years actually -- the romans used them.


plane is probably close n as good as it's going to get.

Anyway can someone point me in the direction of some decent planes at
affordable prices ;o) and perhaps tell me what to look for in a good plane?


What do you want it for? Nowadays, I mostly use an electric
plane, but they aren't suitable for everything. 20 years ago,
I used a hand plane quite often, but on more recent attempts
to do so, I find I can't use it any more. Not sure if it's
because I've forgotten how to, or if it just doesn't suit
todays fast produced timber with the grain going in all
directions. I also have a spokeshave for going into corners.


I intend to try my hand at furniture making things like cupboards and
book shelves etc etc for personal use. I'm just learning at the moment
though so I am making little things like letter stands and trivets. If
an electric plane + spoke shaves is the way forward I'm happy with that.
The less hard work I have to do by hand the better )

--

.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`· Shallow Sea Aquatics .¸¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·
.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯ http://www.shallowsea.com ¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`

doozer wrote:
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
doozer writes:
Anyway can someone point me in the direction of some decent planes at
affordable prices ;o) and perhaps tell me what to look for in a good
plane?

What do you want it for? Nowadays, I mostly use an electric
plane, but they aren't suitable for everything. 20 years ago,
I used a hand plane quite often, but on more recent attempts
to do so, I find I can't use it any more. Not sure if it's
because I've forgotten how to, or if it just doesn't suit
todays fast produced timber with the grain going in all
directions. I also have a spokeshave for going into corners.

I intend to try my hand at furniture making things like cupboards and
book shelves etc etc for personal use. I'm just learning at the moment
though so I am making little things like letter stands and trivets. If
an electric plane + spoke shaves is the way forward I'm happy with that.
The less hard work I have to do by hand the better )

Buy a couple of second-hand steel planes (e.g. "Record" 4 1/2 + a
larger one), which are reasonable. Make sure you know how to sharpen
and set them for various types of timber and work. Keep them sharp,
too, this is very very important! I don't know what A.G. means above
about "a spokeshave for going into corners", as this isn't what
they're for. There are all sorts of planes and uses for them, but
two (or three) will certainly do you for now.

"doozer" wrote in message
...
Paul Mc Cann wrote:
In article , says...

In article ,
doozer wrote:

A Stanley knife blade simply isn't rigid enough for a serious plane.
Nor is it sharp enough.


I'm not saying your wrong but there was a lengthy demonstration which
seemed to indicate that the blade was easily sharp enough. I admit that
he may have sharpened it a little more before hand but I don't think so.

These demonstrations are always designed to show the product at its best.
So nothing to do with real life use. ;-)


As for it not being rigid enough it was pretty firmly held in place so
that only the blade portion was exposed. I would be surprised if
strength was an issue.

Well, just look at the average plane blade. It's supported as close to
the
cutting edge as possible. But is many, many times thicker than a Stanley
knife blade.



In the back, the very back, of my tool cupboard is a Stanley replaceable
blade rebate plane I bought many years ago. It never worked for me.
Chatter was the main problem, which is of course down to both the
thickness of the blade and the clamping system, frog etc.

Ok I'm convinced. I didn't buy one at the show simply because I have seen
other people buy "wonder tools" that turned out to just be rubbish. I am
of the opinion that after several hundred years of refinement the plane is
probably close n as good as it's going to get.

Anyway can someone point me in the direction of some decent planes at
affordable prices ;o) and perhaps tell me what to look for in a good
plane?

Thanks.



Haven't looked specifically for planes recently, but eBay used to be a
pretty good source for reasonably priced planes if you know what you're
looking for.

Patrick Leach's "blood and gore" webpages are a fairly good intro to Stanley
Bailey planes - history and model numbers.
http://www.supertool.com/StanleyBG/stan0a.html

For further reading, "The handplane book" by Garrett Hack has a lot of info
on tuning and what to look for when buying planes, it's also a very nice
coffee table book showing the beauty and diversity of hand planes. There is
also a lot of info on using planes in there.

Other than that, just google around a bit.
http://www.geocities.com/plybench/plane.html has a fairly useful collection
of links (tho if you're going to be reading around the subject you've really
got to get the terminology right - replace the word "blade" with "iron" when
reading this page!!!).


--
Richard Sampson

mail me at
richard at olifant d-ot co do-t uk

In article ,
Chris Bacon writes:
I don't know what A.G. means above
about "a spokeshave for going into corners", as this isn't what
they're for.

In that case, I'm probably using the wrong name for the wrong tool.
It's a plane with almost no base in front of the blade, and handles
sticking out either side.

--
Andrew Gabriel

Buy a couple of second-hand steel planes (e.g. "Record" 4 1/2 + a
larger one), which are reasonable. Make sure you know how to sharpen
and set them for various types of timber and work. Keep them sharp,
too, this is very very important! I don't know what A.G. means above
about "a spokeshave for going into corners", as this isn't what
they're for. There are all sorts of planes and uses for them, but
two (or three) will certainly do you for now.

And a lesson I learnt from my time served cabinet maker father.
Never, ever, put a plane down on its base, always put it down on
its side. THat way you dont ruin the edge of the blade.
Get a clip around the ear everytime you do that and you never forget.

Dave

In article , "Andrew
Gabriel" says...
In article ,
Chris Bacon writes:
I don't know what A.G. means above
about "a spokeshave for going into corners", as this isn't what
they're for.

In that case, I'm probably using the wrong name for the wrong tool.
It's a plane with almost no base in front of the blade, and handles
sticking out either side.


That's a spokeshave, but it's intended to be drawn towards you for
forming rounded edges - things like the spokes on old cartwheels, as
the name suggests.

In article ,
"RichardS" writes:

Patrick Leach's "blood and gore" webpages are a fairly good intro to Stanley
Bailey planes - history and model numbers.
http://www.supertool.com/StanleyBG/stan0a.html

Interesting. Mine (my father's really, and might have been his
father's) is the Stanley #4, apparently manufactured from 1869-1984.

--
Andrew Gabriel

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
.. .
In article ,
"RichardS" writes:

Patrick Leach's "blood and gore" webpages are a fairly good intro to
Stanley
Bailey planes - history and model numbers.
http://www.supertool.com/StanleyBG/stan0a.html

Interesting. Mine (my father's really, and might have been his
father's) is the Stanley #4, apparently manufactured from 1869-1984.



Probably the most common of all hand planes. But, there are #4s and there
are #4s....

I have two.

One is a brand new Stanley Handyman, given to me as a present a couplle of
years ago - not up to much really fine-woodworking-wise, but with a little
iron tuning and proper adjustment (as much as can be adjusted on a handyman)
it does a reasonable job as a rough joiner's plane - shaving down tops of
doors, adjusting high spots on joists, etc. Even at that, it's a bit of a
pig to use.

The other one is a different beast altogether. Bought from eBay for far
less than the price of a new one, its a '30s or '40s Bailey (straight slot
on the cap iron rather than the later kidney shaped one, other patent date
stamps and give-aways, but I can't remember the exact type number (read
"revision")), with a "sweetheart" iron. Didn't need much cleaning up, but
the iron needed a little sorting out. Sharpened it up using the "scarey
sharp" method (sheet of glass & abrasive papers), tuned the cap iron a bit,
adjusted everything properly. It's an absolute gem, planes like a dream
and the iron keeps it's edge during extended planing sessions.

Electric planes may be functional & save a lot of time when doing rough
joinery, but I wouldn't let one within a million miles of any finer
work.....


--
Richard Sampson

mail me at
richard at olifant d-ot co do-t uk

On Tue, 31 May 2005 09:58:22 +0100, doozer
wrote:



I intend to try my hand at furniture making things like cupboards and
book shelves etc etc for personal use. I'm just learning at the moment
though so I am making little things like letter stands and trivets. If
an electric plane + spoke shaves is the way forward I'm happy with that.
The less hard work I have to do by hand the better )


An electric plane is really too aggressive for that, plus there is an
amount of "disconnect" from the work. A well sharpened and tuned
hand plane is a much better proposition. In fact, it's worth getting
two or three of different sizes depending on the work.

If you are looking to make things "mechanically accurate" then
woodworking machines such as table saw, planer, thicknesser etc. are
the way to go.

I find that I need a combination of both depending on the project.

Electric planes are suited to rough DIY work but are neither a
sensitive device for hand work nor an accurate one for producing
machined pieces.



--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diybanter.com

Andy Hall wrote:
On Tue, 31 May 2005 09:58:22 +0100, doozer
wrote:



I intend to try my hand at furniture making things like cupboards and
book shelves etc etc for personal use. I'm just learning at the moment
though so I am making little things like letter stands and trivets. If
an electric plane + spoke shaves is the way forward I'm happy with that.
The less hard work I have to do by hand the better )



An electric plane is really too aggressive for that, plus there is an
amount of "disconnect" from the work. A well sharpened and tuned
hand plane is a much better proposition. In fact, it's worth getting
two or three of different sizes depending on the work.

If you are looking to make things "mechanically accurate" then
woodworking machines such as table saw, planer, thicknesser etc. are
the way to go.

I find that I need a combination of both depending on the project.

Electric planes are suited to rough DIY work but are neither a
sensitive device for hand work nor an accurate one for producing
machined pieces.




Cheers, I didn't think an electric plane was the right tool for the job
as they always looked to bulky for fine work. As for table saws etc etc
I am getting round to them. I can't afford the outlay at the moment but
as I move onto bigger jobs I think I'll just have to.

--

.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`· Shallow Sea Aquatics .¸¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·
.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯ http://www.shallowsea.com ¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`

On Tue, 31 May 2005 12:06:48 +0100, doozer
wrote:



Cheers, I didn't think an electric plane was the right tool for the job
as they always looked to bulky for fine work. As for table saws etc etc
I am getting round to them. I can't afford the outlay at the moment but
as I move onto bigger jobs I think I'll just have to.


If you are going to do a fair amount of work or unusual shapes, it's
worth getting a) a table saw and b) a planer/thicknesser (or separate
planer and thicknesser.

This allows you to buy sawn rather than prepared timber and to machine
it to exactly the required sizes. There is often quite a price hike
for prepared timber even in standard sizes. If you want it machined
to size it gets very expensive.

So to some extent, if you are committed to making things from wood
then you can justify the machinery costs.

For example, over the weekend I was making a ramp with 2.5 degree
slope for my parents' garden. This involved cutting 2.4m joist
bearers at this angle along the length. I was able to do this on the
table saw pretty easily once I'd worked out a suitable jig. I needed
the same angle across the width oof a piece of board and was able to
do that in the thicknesser using a jig.

I still used a handplane to finish in a few places, though.

--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diybanter.com

If you are going to do a fair amount of work or unusual shapes, it's
worth getting a) a table saw and b) a planer/thicknesser (or separate
planer and thicknesser.

This allows you to buy sawn rather than prepared timber and to machine
it to exactly the required sizes. There is often quite a price hike
for prepared timber even in standard sizes. If you want it machined
to size it gets very expensive.

So to some extent, if you are committed to making things from wood
then you can justify the machinery costs.

For example, over the weekend I was making a ramp with 2.5 degree
slope for my parents' garden. This involved cutting 2.4m joist
bearers at this angle along the length. I was able to do this on the
table saw pretty easily once I'd worked out a suitable jig. I needed
the same angle across the width oof a piece of board and was able to
do that in the thicknesser using a jig.

I still used a handplane to finish in a few places, though.


I feel like such a dip stick asking but where is the best place to buy
wood? At the moment I have been practising with the sort of wood that
you can get from the various sheds which pretty much means ply and pine
but obviously I don't want to always use that. This is like being 17
years old again and going to buy your first car without the faintest
clue what to look for )

How much would you spend on a table saw? I suppose more importantly
would it survive being kept in a detached garage (prefab concrete job
that gets pretty damp in winter)? I suspect that it would only last a
couple of years which is one reason I have put off investigating getting
one.

--

.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`· Shallow Sea Aquatics .¸¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·
.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯ http://www.shallowsea.com ¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`

"doozer" wrote in message
...
If you are going to do a fair amount of work or unusual shapes, it's
worth getting a) a table saw and b) a planer/thicknesser (or separate
planer and thicknesser.

This allows you to buy sawn rather than prepared timber and to machine
it to exactly the required sizes. There is often quite a price hike
for prepared timber even in standard sizes. If you want it machined
to size it gets very expensive.

So to some extent, if you are committed to making things from wood
then you can justify the machinery costs.

For example, over the weekend I was making a ramp with 2.5 degree
slope for my parents' garden. This involved cutting 2.4m joist
bearers at this angle along the length. I was able to do this on the
table saw pretty easily once I'd worked out a suitable jig. I needed
the same angle across the width oof a piece of board and was able to
do that in the thicknesser using a jig.

I still used a handplane to finish in a few places, though.


I feel like such a dip stick asking but where is the best place to buy
wood? At the moment I have been practising with the sort of wood that you
can get from the various sheds which pretty much means ply and pine but
obviously I don't want to always use that. This is like being 17 years old
again and going to buy your first car without the faintest clue what to
look for )



Probably a specialist hardwood importer/supplier is the best place to go.
As you say, it's a pretty esoteric world, so you've got to do a bit of
reading up on what you want before you get there, and then you may have a
bit of a chance when they ask you questions like whether you want boards
supplied waney edge, etc...

Best thing is to go down to a supplier and have a look around and discuss
requirements with them - I've found them to be quite accomodating in the
past. After walking through the normal sheds and BMs with rows of stacked,
machined softwood there is something quite wholesome about going to a
supplier seeing what are basically trees just sawn through and stacked.
Gets you back in touch with what you're creating stuff from - bit like
difference between seeing a butcher jointing up a carcass and seeing it
stacked in plastic containers on supermarket shelves (apols if you're
veggie - in that case it's like prepared salads versus a greengrocer's
stall!!!).

Whereabouts are you?

SL Hardwoods in Croydon were good for me when I had a big project underway.
I don't currently have tablesaws, planers, planer/thicknessers, etc (nor
have space for them at the moment) so had to get the timber machined by
them - this is unfortunately a very expensive way to buy hardwood. However,
they accepted a cutting list, pointed out where some of the specs needed to
be changed (outside the max widths of commonly available timber of the
species I was after) and then priced the whole lot up & supplied it machined
bang on spec.

They've got me hooked, and I'll be back to them. The Christmas card was the
icing on the cake!

--
Richard Sampson

mail me at
richard at olifant d-ot co do-t uk

Probably a specialist hardwood importer/supplier is the best place to go.
As you say, it's a pretty esoteric world, so you've got to do a bit of
reading up on what you want before you get there, and then you may have a
bit of a chance when they ask you questions like whether you want boards
supplied waney edge, etc...

Best thing is to go down to a supplier and have a look around and discuss
requirements with them - I've found them to be quite accomodating in the
past. After walking through the normal sheds and BMs with rows of stacked,
machined softwood there is something quite wholesome about going to a
supplier seeing what are basically trees just sawn through and stacked.
Gets you back in touch with what you're creating stuff from - bit like
difference between seeing a butcher jointing up a carcass and seeing it
stacked in plastic containers on supermarket shelves (apols if you're
veggie - in that case it's like prepared salads versus a greengrocer's
stall!!!).

I'm an omnivore - I know what you mean.


Whereabouts are you?

Southampton - will travel to get good wood / advice


SL Hardwoods in Croydon were good for me when I had a big project underway.
I don't currently have tablesaws, planers, planer/thicknessers, etc (nor
have space for them at the moment) so had to get the timber machined by
them - this is unfortunately a very expensive way to buy hardwood.

We have a B&Q Warehouse just up the road and I got them to cut some ply
wood for me. The service was generally very good and the accuracy was
fantastic (better than 1mm all round even though they claim 5mm). In
fact the only thing that let it down was the guy had trouble
understanding grain direction and size on one small fascia piece - he
first cut it to cm rather than mm even though every measurement was in
mm then, when trying to correct his mistake, he cut it with the grain
running in the wrong direction.

However,
they accepted a cutting list, pointed out where some of the specs needed to
be changed (outside the max widths of commonly available timber of the
species I was after) and then priced the whole lot up & supplied it machined
bang on spec.

They've got me hooked, and I'll be back to them. The Christmas card was the
icing on the cake!



--

.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`· Shallow Sea Aquatics .¸¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·
.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯ http://www.shallowsea.com ¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`

On Tue, 31 May 2005 09:35:22 +0100, Chris Bacon
wrote:

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Well, just look at the average plane blade. It's supported as close to the
cutting edge as possible.

Perhaps you'd care to expand on that superficially wrong statement?

It's about right, if you consider that "as close to the cutting edge
as possible" doesn't mean as close to the cutting edge as it can go.
The curling or back irons of my planes are all within between 2mm and
5mm of the cutting edge. That seems pretty close to me considering the
comparative chunkiness of standard plane irons.
My Dad bought a "Razor-Plane" once. It took used razor blades. It
didn't take them far though.
--
Regards,
Mike Halmarack

Drop the EGG to email me.

Mike Halmarack wrote:
Chris Bacon wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Well, just look at the average plane blade. It's supported as close to the
cutting edge as possible.

Perhaps you'd care to expand on that superficially wrong statement?

It's about right, if you consider that "as close to the cutting edge
as possible" doesn't mean as close to the cutting edge as it can go.

Ah, that wasn't said, though! If the statement's altered, it's OK.

On Tue, 31 May 2005 14:46:29 +0100, doozer
wrote:

If you are going to do a fair amount of work or unusual shapes, it's
worth getting a) a table saw and b) a planer/thicknesser (or separate
planer and thicknesser.

This allows you to buy sawn rather than prepared timber and to machine
it to exactly the required sizes. There is often quite a price hike
for prepared timber even in standard sizes. If you want it machined
to size it gets very expensive.

So to some extent, if you are committed to making things from wood
then you can justify the machinery costs.

For example, over the weekend I was making a ramp with 2.5 degree
slope for my parents' garden. This involved cutting 2.4m joist
bearers at this angle along the length. I was able to do this on the
table saw pretty easily once I'd worked out a suitable jig. I needed
the same angle across the width oof a piece of board and was able to
do that in the thicknesser using a jig.

I still used a handplane to finish in a few places, though.


I feel like such a dip stick asking but where is the best place to buy
wood?

Not at all. The woodworking magazines have ads for a reasonable
selection of suppliers of hardwoods around the country.

However, most sell sawn rather than machined timber. Several, such
as SL Hardwoods sell pallets of offcuts which can be good for smaller
projects and relatively inexpensive.

At the moment I have been practising with the sort of wood that
you can get from the various sheds which pretty much means ply and pine
but obviously I don't want to always use that. This is like being 17
years old again and going to buy your first car without the faintest
clue what to look for )

How much would you spend on a table saw? I suppose more importantly
would it survive being kept in a detached garage (prefab concrete job
that gets pretty damp in winter)? I suspect that it would only last a
couple of years which is one reason I have put off investigating getting
one.

There are several questions here.

I have a large detached garage to use as a workshop which was
originally unheated and uninsulated. Since I wanted to equip with
good quality machinery, I decided to deal with the workshop first.
Therefore, I insulated the walls and roof with Celotex in a stud frame
clad with ply. This meant that instead of needing about 12kW of fan
heater to make it remotely suitable for working in, I could heat it in
the depths of winter with 3kW. I then created a secondary central
heating circuit run from the house system via a heat exchanger and
installed radiators. THe result is a dry workshop at 18-20 degrees
at any time.

Having done that, I invested in a good quality (Felder) combination
machine consisting of table saw, spindle moulder, planer and
thicknesser. For the shape of the space that I have, this provided
the most optimal use. In other cases, separate machines can be more
convenient. This one will take apart if I ever wanted to do that.

However, you don't need to make the level of investment that I did to
get good results.

Table saws come in several bands of price. The very cheapest around
£200 from DIY stores are really quite poor. The fences are flimsy,
can't be set accurately and results disappointing.
If you go for something around £500-700, it gets a lot better. The
fence and general mechanics are much improved for example. However,
the table size is still relatively small and typically aluminium
casting. You can put infeed and outfeed tables around it to improve
stability and there is still reasonable portability.

At about £800 and above you get cast iron table, a more powerful
motor, a larger table, a better fence etc. The machine also becomes
less portable but can still be wheeled around. For example, my
combination machine weighs around a tonne in total but is on a rolling
carriage and can be moved around reasonably easily.

You can buy a portable thicknesser (Americans call them planers) for
about £300 and up. They aren't bad, but because of the mechanics
will tend to produce snipe (planing marks) at the ends of the piece.
You can get around this by using longer material.

You can buy a planer (Americans call them jointers) for about £400
upwards with cast iron tables. The more expensive ones are wider and
have better mechanics. The purpose of these is to produce a flat
planed surface on one side of the timber and then another at an angle
(normally 90 degrees) to it.

There are combined planer/thicknessers for about £600 and up which
work well and usually can deal with 300mm wide material or more.

Reasonable combination machines start at around £3-4k.

This lot, plus a compound mitre saw would provide most of the
machinery requirements. You would also need a dust and chip extractor
- cost starting at about £300.











--

..andy

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The information contained in this post is copyright the
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In article ,
Chris Bacon wrote:
Well, just look at the average plane blade. It's supported as close to
the cutting edge as possible.

Perhaps you'd care to expand on that superficially wrong statement?

Not when you clip the other part of the post.

A decent plane consists of a very rigid body, and a well supported rigid
and sharp blade.

--
*Snowmen fall from Heaven unassembled*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

doozer wrote in

I intend to try my hand at furniture making things like cupboards and
book shelves etc etc for personal use. I'm just learning at the moment
though so I am making little things like letter stands and trivets. If
an electric plane + spoke shaves is the way forward I'm happy with that.
The less hard work I have to do by hand the better )


Electric planes are indoor chain saws, ;(
very useful but not really going to produce fine cabinet making.
You can find good second hand planes Record or Stanley
( the older the better as the newer ones seem to be made from ex Chinese
railway lines )
at boot sale for very little money, learn to use and sharpen one of these
and they will last a lifetime.

On Tue, 31 May 2005 11:00:51 +0100, Rob Morley
wrote:

In article , "Andrew
Gabriel" says...
In article ,
Chris Bacon writes:
I don't know what A.G. means above
about "a spokeshave for going into corners", as this isn't what
they're for.

In that case, I'm probably using the wrong name for the wrong tool.
It's a plane with almost no base in front of the blade, and handles
sticking out either side.


That's a spokeshave, but it's intended to be drawn towards you for
forming rounded edges - things like the spokes on old cartwheels, as
the name suggests.

The two thumb fitting depressions near the handles in the frame of
many spokeshaves would suggest that the tool is generally pushed away
from the user. It's most likely that frequent users will use the tool
in both directions. Sometimes for running a chamfer or bevel on a long
or eccentric edge, I use my heavier, metal spokeshaves one handed in a
fanning motion. It's my favourite tool by far. Pity it doesn't reach
inside corners.
--
Regards,
Mike Halmarack

Drop the EGG to email me.

On Tue, 31 May 2005 08:36:56 +0100, doozer
wrote:

Anyway can someone point me in the direction of some decent planes at
affordable prices ;o) and perhaps tell me what to look for in a good plane?

Jeff Gorman's web site.
http://www.amgron.clara.net/planingp...planeindex.htm

A little book called "Planecraft", a '50s advertorial published by
Record. Couple of quid off eBay.


Avoid replaceable blade planes. They're a bad idea, always were, always
likely to be so. They don't work because they're intended to be sold to
people who don't plane and don't need to. If you never ask more from it
than to chamfer a bit of pineywood 2x4, then you can use this
stanleyknifeblade thing. OTOH, you could just as well use your penknife.

An alternative is to get a spokeshave instead. For a lot of rough
carpentry, it's a better tool than a plane. Find old Stanley #63 or #64
models (the little ones, sometimes seen as "kids models") which work
well, when the more common #51 or #151 models are too crudely made to be
much use. Or else an old wooden spokeshave, although these can be
awkward to sharpen if in poor condition.


IMHO, a reasonable workbench needs three planes on it. A Stanley #5, a
#4 and a small block plane. If you're doubtful, the block plane is
probably the most useful.

The #5 is the most useful for general bench use. They're common and
they're a better size than a #4. Couple of quid off eBay will do you, or
else most car boot sales. Almost any of them that aren't actually broken
or have bits missing will work fine - read Jeff Gorman's notes on how to
sharpen and fettle them.

The #4 is even more common than a #5 - you can usually find them growing
under benches in abandoned sheds. It has even been suggested they're the
rustic adult form of the wire coat hanger, well known for spontaneously
generating in dark wardrobes.

With a #4 as well as a #5, you can adjust them differently and leave
them that way. Set the #5 up as a bench plane, set the #4 as a smoother
(JG's notes again). A second #4 can even be rigged as a "scrub" plane
for rapidly shifting timber and leaving a rough finish. Use your
roughest, adjust the mouth wide open and sharpen the iron with a large
crown (curve) to the edge.

The block plane is an essential tool, even if you're mainly working with
power tools. Spend the money and buy a Veritas low-angle block plane
from Lee Valley in Canada.
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.a...=1,41182,41189
This is one of the best-made and best-designed modern hand tools it has
ever been my pleasure to purchase. They really are that good.

As you won't spend this money, find an _old_ Stanley or Record block
plane with a decent adjuster (i.e. not the unadjustable monsters with
the screw clamp alone).


Don't buy new planes. Stanley are rubbish. Record aren't much better.
Rolson, Anant etc. are insufferable and pretty much useless. New block
planes are even worse than bench planes. The only new planes worth
having are from the better makers - Lee Valley / Veritas, Clifton,
Lie-Nielsen etc.

So buy old S/H planes and use them - far better tools, and cheap too.
Electrolysis (Google rec.woodworking) takes rust off, plenty of other
guides tell you how to restore them.


You will need to sharpen any plane you expect to do good work with. Read
Leonard Lee's "Sharpening", or Google for "Scary Sharp" (sandpaper and
glass - cheap and easy)

--
Cats have nine lives, which is why they rarely post to Usenet.

Andy Hall wrote:
snip

Many thanks. That's more than I could have hoped for and provide me with
ample food for thought.

I hadn't thought of lining the inside of the garage, now you mention it
though it seems like a no brainer.

Cheers

Graham

--

.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`· Shallow Sea Aquatics .¸¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·
.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯ http://www.shallowsea.com ¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`

On Wed, 01 Jun 2005 11:27:58 +0100, doozer
wrote:

Andy Hall wrote:
snip

Many thanks. That's more than I could have hoped for and provide me with
ample food for thought.

I hadn't thought of lining the inside of the garage, now you mention it
though it seems like a no brainer.

Cheers

Graham

It wasn't that expensive to do either. You can buy second grade
Celotex from www.secondsandco.co.uk, although with transport it may
not be cheaper than a builder's merchant. I put together a complete
shopping list including timber and ply and other materials and faxed
it to several builder's merchants telling them that I wanted a project
price. This brought the costs down considerably.

My garage has a pitched roof with roof trusses, so I boarded that over
(but didn't insulate at the "ceiling" level). I fitted insulation
between the rafters, leaving an air gap for ventilation behind.
Thus the roof area is not full heated (cutting costs a bit) but
doesn't get cold or damp either.

I then built timber frames from pressure treated 75x50mm timber and
bolted them to the "ceiling" joists and via Rawlbolts and DPC material
to the concrete floor. THere is a small airgap behind the framing. I
then fitted insulation between the frame components and fitted 18mm
ply to the frame. This also has the advantage that you can easily
fit things like shelves, cupboards or whatever anywhere.

Celotex is very light and I also insulated the doors, while at the
same time draught proofing them with plastic strips.

Even if you don't go to the lengths that I did and add the CH feed and
have to use electricity, 3kW is a lot more reasonable than 12kW.
I have a setback arrangement on my heating so that the temperature
doesn't go below 10degrees, and it also means that everything remains
dry.



--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diybanter.com

On 31 May 2005 10:14:12 GMT, (Andrew
Gabriel) wrote:

Interesting. Mine (my father's really, and might have been his
father's) is the Stanley #4, apparently manufactured from 1869-1984.

Common as anyting - most people find themselves with half-a-dozen before
they realise. I've got one on a string that pulls a gate shut.

You can date it accurately here, if it's American
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/P...flowchart.html
or more awkwardly here, which generally translates better to the English
ones. If it's old, it may well be US made anyway.
http://www.tooltrip.com/tooltrip8/st...iley-types.htm

On Tue, 31 May 2005 14:46:29 +0100, doozer
wrote:

I feel like such a dip stick asking but where is the best place to buy
wood?

Back of Furniture and Cabinet Making mag - read the ads. Pay attention
to finding the right supplier - it's the biggest single difference you
can make to price, choice and quality. You shouldn't have any trouble
finding somewhere, but you're completely stuffed if you try to do real
cabinetry with carpentry timber.

Buy UK-grown hardwoods; ash or beech are attractive, cheap and easily
worked. French oak is OK, not as good looking as UK, but the US stuff
is generally either expensive or rough (their maple's OK, oak needs to
know what you're about).

Avoid tropicals. They're either a bad idea conservation-wise, or they're
strictly for outdoor / esoteric use and will be difficult to work with.

I use these people:
http://www.interestingtimbers.co.uk (good on-line prices)
http://www.bendreybrothers.co.uk

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...
On 31 May 2005 10:14:12 GMT, (Andrew
Gabriel) wrote:

Interesting. Mine (my father's really, and might have been his
father's) is the Stanley #4, apparently manufactured from 1869-1984.

Common as anyting - most people find themselves with half-a-dozen before
they realise. I've got one on a string that pulls a gate shut.

You can date it accurately here, if it's American
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/P...flowchart.html
or more awkwardly here, which generally translates better to the English
ones. If it's old, it may well be US made anyway.
http://www.tooltrip.com/tooltrip8/st...iley-types.htm


Excellent, thanks Andy. From the first link I've just identified mine as a
Type 15, so somewhat earlier than I had previously thought (1931/32) and
fits with the sweetheart iron & Stanley on the lever cap (I had wondered
whether or not these were the originals).

Glad I perservered with the eBay auction - planes beautifully!

--
Richard Sampson

mail me at
richard at olifant d-ot co do-t uk

On Wed, 1 Jun 2005 13:42:55 +0100, "RichardS"
wrote:

Excellent, thanks Andy. From the first link I've just identified mine as a
Type 15, so somewhat earlier than I had previously thought (1931/32) and
fits with the sweetheart iron & Stanley on the lever cap (I had wondered
whether or not these were the originals).

That's probably the best type to have - especially with the Sweetheart
iron. These were laminated and take an excellent edge.

If you really do want a wonder tool that is not a "wonder tool" then
look at the Lie-Nielsen planes. Whether you think that they are
affordable depends on your budget of course :-)

And you may well 'wonder' how they can possibly charge so much for
them.............

Dave

On Wed, 01 Jun 2005 23:35:53 GMT, "David Lang"
wrote:


If you really do want a wonder tool that is not a "wonder tool" then
look at the Lie-Nielsen planes. Whether you think that they are
affordable depends on your budget of course :-)

And you may well 'wonder' how they can possibly charge so much for
them.............

Dave


Once one has used one, that becomes quite obvious...



--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diybanter.com

In article ,
says...

If you really do want a wonder tool that is not a "wonder tool" then
look at the Lie-Nielsen planes. Whether you think that they are
affordable depends on your budget of course :-)

And you may well 'wonder' how they can possibly charge so much for
them.............

Dave



ISTR that allowing for inflation etc they are cheaper than Stanley et al
were at the turn of the last cantury.

Also they are practically hand made
--
Paul Mc Cann