"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 20 Feb 2018 09:36:39 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

These look interesting to use with solar/battery power:
https://www.aliexpress.com/store/pro...842967793.html

I'd find another distributor who doesn't go through DHL if I were
you.
Some shippers gouge the spit outta ya while others don't. I
strongly
suspect the overseas shippers of taking baksheesh.

Through Foshan Alpicool on Alibaba: https://is.gd/xj41FC Maybe call
to see if they can set up shipping. $79-240.

https://is.gd/CkmZjC Here's a brand new (smaller) C15 for $268
delivered.


Does anyone have anything good or bad to say about them, or buying
from AliExpress?

I have purchased from 4 vendors through AliExpress and have had zero
problems. Shipping can be as short as one week or as long as seven.


I won't be bouncing it down rough trails, although the car is 4WD
and
has a 12V outlet in the back for a powered cooler.

Sounds cool. groan

I forgot to tell you that I talked with my friend Phil and his
experience had been entirely positive with the compressor type. He
inherited one from his FIL and it's still working for him 9 years
later, so it's likely 12+ years old. He set it to freeze (it's one
of
the fridge or freezer types) and he says it stays at zero on 120vac
or
13.5vdc. Also, most of the truckers he knows have had horrible luck
with the peltier types, with few opting for the compressor style.
Those all had positive reviews, too, regardless of the brand. Phil
also said to look at the propane/12v style of RV fridges, which are
spendy but reliable. I had forgotten they lived in SoCal for 3
months
in their 5th wheel while the truck was repaired after a freeway
accident.


If I can't find an AC/DC powered compact refrigerator priced as
reasonably as the AC-only ones I may be able to make the fridge
thermostat turn the inverter on and off. The real issue is the APC1400
UPS inverter's 1.5A idle current, which consumes more battery capacity
than the fridge does.

My present simple answer is add more batteries and let the APC and
fridge operate the way they were designed to. That's looking like it
might be the safest and lowest cost solution too. The APC's default
float voltage setting for sealed batteries also works for flooded deep
cycle ones. It's below the hydrogen generation level though they
recharge rather slowly.

The fridge power cord could connect to the center contacts of a DPDT
relay so that the NC side senses thermostat closure and the NO side
applies 120VAC. I already have a clip-on current transformer to sense
when the fridge turns off.

The APC1400 can be turned on or off by serial port commands, except
that it refuses ("NO") to turn on without AC present. Startup on
battery is an abnormal condition that requires pressing and holding
the On button until the buzzer sounds. I could probably wire to the
switch and buzzer to do that with an Arduino controller if simpler,
less intrusive methods fail.

Internet comments suggest that the non-standard serial port pins also
have control and status functions that might be useful, though battery
24V appears on one of them and a slip could destroy the unit. APC
doesn't document the functions, which I suspect are for production
line testing rather than some user accessory they sell.

Yesterday I received this DB9 breakout adapter to probe or make safer,
better insulated temporary connections to the port pins. It might be
useful for tinkering with CNC controllers too.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00WW6YU5G...oding=UTF8&me=

Despite all the proclaimed concern about CO2 and alternate/renewable
energy it doesn't seem like many people are DOING anything about them.
-jsw

On Wed, 21 Feb 2018 11:22:46 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 20 Feb 2018 09:36:39 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

These look interesting to use with solar/battery power:
https://www.aliexpress.com/store/pro...842967793.html

I'd find another distributor who doesn't go through DHL if I were
you.
Some shippers gouge the spit outta ya while others don't. I
strongly
suspect the overseas shippers of taking baksheesh.

Through Foshan Alpicool on Alibaba: https://is.gd/xj41FC Maybe call
to see if they can set up shipping. $79-240.

https://is.gd/CkmZjC Here's a brand new (smaller) C15 for $268
delivered.


Does anyone have anything good or bad to say about them, or buying
from AliExpress?

I have purchased from 4 vendors through AliExpress and have had zero
problems. Shipping can be as short as one week or as long as seven.


I won't be bouncing it down rough trails, although the car is 4WD
and
has a 12V outlet in the back for a powered cooler.

Sounds cool. groan

I forgot to tell you that I talked with my friend Phil and his
experience had been entirely positive with the compressor type. He
inherited one from his FIL and it's still working for him 9 years
later, so it's likely 12+ years old. He set it to freeze (it's one
of
the fridge or freezer types) and he says it stays at zero on 120vac
or
13.5vdc. Also, most of the truckers he knows have had horrible luck
with the peltier types, with few opting for the compressor style.
Those all had positive reviews, too, regardless of the brand. Phil
also said to look at the propane/12v style of RV fridges, which are
spendy but reliable. I had forgotten they lived in SoCal for 3
months
in their 5th wheel while the truck was repaired after a freeway
accident.


If I can't find an AC/DC powered compact refrigerator priced as
reasonably as the AC-only ones I may be able to make the fridge
thermostat turn the inverter on and off. The real issue is the APC1400
UPS inverter's 1.5A idle current, which consumes more battery capacity
than the fridge does.

Your fridge takes less than 20w?


My present simple answer is add more batteries and let the APC and
fridge operate the way they were designed to. That's looking like it
might be the safest and lowest cost solution too. The APC's default
float voltage setting for sealed batteries also works for flooded deep
cycle ones. It's below the hydrogen generation level though they
recharge rather slowly.

It's time for all of us to upgrade to LIPO (or better), huh? LA is
just not worth the effort and hassle. But 14kW goes for $6200
installed. I hope that price drops dramatically when the Giga Factory
opens and gets up to speed, or when new tech hits the markets. My
single kilowatt will likely not be enough to satiate it, though.


The fridge power cord could connect to the center contacts of a DPDT
relay so that the NC side senses thermostat closure and the NO side
applies 120VAC. I already have a clip-on current transformer to sense
when the fridge turns off.

OK.


The APC1400 can be turned on or off by serial port commands, except
that it refuses ("NO") to turn on without AC present. Startup on
battery is an abnormal condition that requires pressing and holding
the On button until the buzzer sounds. I could probably wire to the
switch and buzzer to do that with an Arduino controller if simpler,
less intrusive methods fail.

I'm guessing that you want to retain the computer control rather than
just hotwirin' logic to the SOB?


Internet comments suggest that the non-standard serial port pins also
have control and status functions that might be useful, though battery
24V appears on one of them and a slip could destroy the unit. APC
doesn't document the functions, which I suspect are for production
line testing rather than some user accessory they sell.

Has APC released pinout info?


Yesterday I received this DB9 breakout adapter to probe or make safer,
better insulated temporary connections to the port pins. It might be
useful for tinkering with CNC controllers too.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00WW6YU5G...oding=UTF8&me=

Not a bad price, I guess. ($1.93 direct from China, 6wk dlvy time)
DB9, wow. I remember waaay back when computers came with those!


Despite all the proclaimed concern about CO2 and alternate/renewable
energy it doesn't seem like many people are DOING anything about them.

Yeah, I've noticed that, too. 12v products are few and far between
while being ghastly expensive. Ditto point-of-use inverters.
For now, going 100% solar is really expensive and far too many places
either won't let you on the grid, won't let you put up solar, or they
REQUIRE you to be on grid with your panels. It's a mess.

The sun just came out and the glare is horrible, what with all that
snow out there. About 5" came down overnight and this morning. It's
up to 35F so it should be gone soon. The storm should reach you by
early next week. And if it snows here, you know it's going to be much
heavier elsewhere. G'luck.

--
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results.
-- Sir Winston Churchill

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 21 Feb 2018 11:22:46 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


If I can't find an AC/DC powered compact refrigerator priced as
reasonably as the AC-only ones I may be able to make the fridge
thermostat turn the inverter on and off. The real issue is the
APC1400
UPS inverter's 1.5A idle current, which consumes more battery
capacity
than the fridge does.

Your fridge takes less than 20w?

It draws 80W but not continuously. The average is close to 20W
although it depends too strongly on room temperature and how much I
open the door to give one definitive answer. On the last 12 hour run
the fridge used 230 Watt-Hours overnight, after supper to before
breakfast, while room temp fell from 60F to 55F. The APC which was on
wall power used 695W-h, 465 for itself plus the 230 to the fridge. It
appears to draw the same ~40W idle power whether on 120V or 24V.

There had been several short power dropouts and I ran the fridge from
the APC UPS overnight as a precaution, not a careful test.

My present simple answer is add more batteries and let the APC and
fridge operate the way they were designed to. That's looking like it
might be the safest and lowest cost solution too. The APC's default
float voltage setting for sealed batteries also works for flooded
deep
cycle ones. It's below the hydrogen generation level though they
recharge rather slowly.

It's time for all of us to upgrade to LIPO (or better), huh? LA is
just not worth the effort and hassle. But 14kW goes for $6200
installed. I hope that price drops dramatically when the Giga
Factory
opens and gets up to speed, or when new tech hits the markets. My
single kilowatt will likely not be enough to satiate it, though.

Flooded lead-acid easily beats everything else for initial cost per
KWH and if treated right competes well on lifespan. I don't see the
life from older Li laptop batteries that I can get from LAs.

Here is an example of a salvaged EV Lithium that's 4x the cost of a
12V 105A-h SLI31MDC
https://www.ebay.com/i/112562977502?chn=ps

The APC1400 can be turned on or off by serial port commands, except
that it refuses ("NO") to turn on without AC present. Startup on
battery is an abnormal condition that requires pressing and holding
the On button until the buzzer sounds. I could probably wire to the
switch and buzzer to do that with an Arduino controller if simpler,
less intrusive methods fail.

I'm guessing that you want to retain the computer control rather
than
just hotwirin' logic to the SOB?

Whatever works. I have a lot of experience designing industrial relay
and digital logic control hardware, and writing control software.

Despite all the proclaimed concern about CO2 and alternate/renewable
energy it doesn't seem like many people are DOING anything about
them.

Yeah, I've noticed that, too. 12v products are few and far between
while being ghastly expensive. Ditto point-of-use inverters.
For now, going 100% solar is really expensive and far too many
places
either won't let you on the grid, won't let you put up solar, or
they
REQUIRE you to be on grid with your panels. It's a mess.


Alternate energy is great to impose on others, as long as you don't
have to put up with the inconvenience of it yourself.
-jsw

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
news
"Larry Jaques" wrote in message

It's time for all of us to upgrade to LIPO (or better), huh? LA is
just not worth the effort and hassle. But 14kW goes for $6200
installed. I hope that price drops dramatically when the Giga
Factory
opens and gets up to speed, or when new tech hits the markets. My
single kilowatt will likely not be enough to satiate it, though.

Flooded lead-acid easily beats everything else for initial cost per
KWH and if treated right competes well on lifespan. I don't see the
life from older Li laptop batteries that I can get from LAs.


http://solarray.com/TechGuides/Batteries_T.php
"Anywhere where weight is an issue, Li+ may be the best choice, but
for stationary solar systems, they are still about double the total
cost per kWh of lead acid batteries like the HUP Solar One."

On Thu, 22 Feb 2018 15:06:32 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 21 Feb 2018 11:22:46 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


If I can't find an AC/DC powered compact refrigerator priced as
reasonably as the AC-only ones I may be able to make the fridge
thermostat turn the inverter on and off. The real issue is the
APC1400
UPS inverter's 1.5A idle current, which consumes more battery
capacity
than the fridge does.

Your fridge takes less than 20w?

It draws 80W but not continuously. The average is close to 20W
although it depends too strongly on room temperature and how much I
open the door to give one definitive answer. On the last 12 hour run
the fridge used 230 Watt-Hours overnight, after supper to before
breakfast, while room temp fell from 60F to 55F. The APC which was on
wall power used 695W-h, 465 for itself plus the 230 to the fridge. It
appears to draw the same ~40W idle power whether on 120V or 24V.

Yeah, those things are always warm, even if the computer is asleep or
off. (feels TrippLite Internet Office UPS) Hmm, this one isn't. My
APCs and CyberPowers were always 90F+.


There had been several short power dropouts and I ran the fridge from
the APC UPS overnight as a precaution, not a careful test.

My present simple answer is add more batteries and let the APC and
fridge operate the way they were designed to. That's looking like it
might be the safest and lowest cost solution too. The APC's default
float voltage setting for sealed batteries also works for flooded
deep
cycle ones. It's below the hydrogen generation level though they
recharge rather slowly.

It's time for all of us to upgrade to LIPO (or better), huh? LA is
just not worth the effort and hassle. But 14kW goes for $6200
installed. I hope that price drops dramatically when the Giga
Factory
opens and gets up to speed, or when new tech hits the markets. My
single kilowatt will likely not be enough to satiate it, though.

Flooded lead-acid easily beats everything else for initial cost per
KWH and if treated right competes well on lifespan. I don't see the
life from older Li laptop batteries that I can get from LAs.

Your (and probably my) definition of lifetime is likely considerably
looser than that of others, who would consider a battery producing
only 70% of new capacity to be a throw-away item.


Here is an example of a salvaged EV Lithium that's 4x the cost of a
12V 105A-h SLI31MDC
https://www.ebay.com/i/112562977502?chn=ps

A "new" battery from 2015 Chevy Volt? Yes, expensive.
https://is.gd/Pspy7V Trojan T105RE (made for solar/wind) are about
$200/ea (6v) but are 225Ah, same relative cost as that lithium.


The APC1400 can be turned on or off by serial port commands, except
that it refuses ("NO") to turn on without AC present. Startup on
battery is an abnormal condition that requires pressing and holding
the On button until the buzzer sounds. I could probably wire to the
switch and buzzer to do that with an Arduino controller if simpler,
less intrusive methods fail.

I'm guessing that you want to retain the computer control rather
than
just hotwirin' logic to the SOB?

Whatever works. I have a lot of experience designing industrial relay
and digital logic control hardware, and writing control software.

Ayup.


Despite all the proclaimed concern about CO2 and alternate/renewable
energy it doesn't seem like many people are DOING anything about
them.

Some are volunteering to pay more to the electric company for power
which is supposedly produced with alternative energy supplies. Wind,
solar, geothermal, biomass (which burns something/adds to warming. I
still don't get why the alarmists go with that.)


Yeah, I've noticed that, too. 12v products are few and far between
while being ghastly expensive. Ditto point-of-use inverters.
For now, going 100% solar is really expensive and far too many
places
either won't let you on the grid, won't let you put up solar, or
they
REQUIRE you to be on grid with your panels. It's a mess.


Alternate energy is great to impose on others, as long as you don't
have to put up with the inconvenience of it yourself.

Done right, it's almost invisible rather than inconvenient.

--
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results.
-- Sir Winston Churchill

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 22 Feb 2018 15:06:32 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
. ..
On Wed, 21 Feb 2018 11:22:46 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


If I can't find an AC/DC powered compact refrigerator priced as
reasonably as the AC-only ones

I ordered the Alpicool C20 for $239. It's small and light enough to
use in the car, big enough to hold 6 days of breakfast, lunch and
supper. Hopefully it can run all night on the jumpstarter type sealed
battery pack I've been using with an inefficient thermoelectric cooler
in the car.

Maybe the combination can serve as a fridge with UPS, as long as the
jumpstarter's charger can keep up without overcharging the battery.
That's easy to test with my datalogging setup.

If the built-in charger doesn't work out I have an HF 99857 1.5A 3
stage onboard charger to dedicate to the task. I don't leave my home
made devices running unattended overnight.
Sorry, the HF 99857 is "Not available for shipment to CA and OR."

It's time for all of us to upgrade to LIPO (or better), huh? LA
is
just not worth the effort and hassle. But 14kW goes for $6200
installed. I hope that price drops dramatically when the Giga
Factory
opens and gets up to speed, or when new tech hits the markets. My
single kilowatt will likely not be enough to satiate it, though.

Flooded lead-acid easily beats everything else for initial cost per
KWH and if treated right competes well on lifespan. I don't see the
life from older Li laptop batteries that I can get from LAs.

Your (and probably my) definition of lifetime is likely considerably
looser than that of others, who would consider a battery producing
only 70% of new capacity to be a throw-away item.

I knew how much current the truck starter needed and could measure how
much the battery delivered. When it got close I traded.

Here is an example of a salvaged EV Lithium that's 4x the cost of a
12V 105A-h SLI31MDC
https://www.ebay.com/i/112562977502?chn=ps

A "new" battery from 2015 Chevy Volt? Yes, expensive.
https://is.gd/Pspy7V Trojan T105RE (made for solar/wind) are about
$200/ea (6v) but are 225Ah, same relative cost as that lithium.

That's $200 for 1.35KWH versus $120 for 1.26KWH from a 12V 105Ah
SLI31MDC. I looked at 6V deep cycle batteries and AGMs before buying
more SLI31s last month. The initial cost for 24V is $800 for the 6V
batteries, $240 for the 12V ones. Perhaps the T105 makes sense for
daily cycling but I can't justify them for a backup system where the
smaller batteries are adequate. They may see only a dozen cycles,
mostly for capacity testing, before dying of old age.

This winter we have had many near misses from ice storms. It rains and
freezes but the buildup hasn't been heavy enough to bring down trees
or wires. Another chance is predicted for tomorrow.

The SLI31MDC I bought around 2007 or 2008 to run a winch is noticeably
weakening.


Alternate energy is great to impose on others, as long as you don't
have to put up with the inconvenience of it yourself.

Done right, it's almost invisible rather than inconvenient.

If you know how, please share it. Most of my industrial battery
experience was tending to the needs of Lithiums.

-jsw

On Sat, 24 Feb 2018 09:26:14 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 22 Feb 2018 15:06:32 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 21 Feb 2018 11:22:46 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


If I can't find an AC/DC powered compact refrigerator priced as
reasonably as the AC-only ones

I ordered the Alpicool C20 for $239. It's small and light enough to
use in the car, big enough to hold 6 days of breakfast, lunch and
supper. Hopefully it can run all night on the jumpstarter type sealed
battery pack I've been using with an inefficient thermoelectric cooler
in the car.

Yeeouch on the price. Aren't those jumpstarters a 1.3Ah battery
coupled with a capacitor? I mounted a 48w (Sears/China watts; actual
draw 27w) on a 12v 1.3Ah battery and it's a helluva flashlight. One
of these days, I'll have to test the lifetime. It makes a great
worklight.


Maybe the combination can serve as a fridge with UPS, as long as the
jumpstarter's charger can keep up without overcharging the battery.
That's easy to test with my datalogging setup.

Let me know the startup and running current draws when you received
it. Very curious here. I've never seen a 12/24vdc compressor.


If the built-in charger doesn't work out I have an HF 99857 1.5A 3
stage onboard charger to dedicate to the task. I don't leave my home
made devices running unattended overnight.
Sorry, the HF 99857 is "Not available for shipment to CA and OR."

That's extremely funny, considering the import point is Long Beach,
CA. I wonder what inherent evil they house to require them to be
warded from the Republik of Kalifornia and mostly-red Blue state of
Oregon.


It's time for all of us to upgrade to LIPO (or better), huh? LA
is
just not worth the effort and hassle. But 14kW goes for $6200
installed. I hope that price drops dramatically when the Giga
Factory
opens and gets up to speed, or when new tech hits the markets. My
single kilowatt will likely not be enough to satiate it, though.

Flooded lead-acid easily beats everything else for initial cost per
KWH and if treated right competes well on lifespan. I don't see the
life from older Li laptop batteries that I can get from LAs.

Your (and probably my) definition of lifetime is likely considerably
looser than that of others, who would consider a battery producing
only 70% of new capacity to be a throw-away item.

I knew how much current the truck starter needed and could measure how
much the battery delivered. When it got close I traded.

I believe you. (slowly shakes head)


Here is an example of a salvaged EV Lithium that's 4x the cost of a
12V 105A-h SLI31MDC
https://www.ebay.com/i/112562977502?chn=ps

A "new" battery from 2015 Chevy Volt? Yes, expensive.
https://is.gd/Pspy7V Trojan T105RE (made for solar/wind) are about
$200/ea (6v) but are 225Ah, same relative cost as that lithium.

That's $200 for 1.35KWH versus $120 for 1.26KWH from a 12V 105Ah
SLI31MDC. I looked at 6V deep cycle batteries and AGMs before buying
more SLI31s last month. The initial cost for 24V is $800 for the 6V
batteries, $240 for the 12V ones. Perhaps the T105 makes sense for
daily cycling but I can't justify them for a backup system where the
smaller batteries are adequate. They may see only a dozen cycles,
mostly for capacity testing, before dying of old age.

The better batteries have a lot more lead in them and their lifetime
is extended (barring massive sulfation). In your case, the cost
probably isn't warranted, as you say. The price is easily justified
for someone with a chest freezer full of meat.


This winter we have had many near misses from ice storms. It rains and
freezes but the buildup hasn't been heavy enough to bring down trees
or wires. Another chance is predicted for tomorrow.

The SLI31MDC I bought around 2007 or 2008 to run a winch is noticeably
weakening.

That's an amazing lifetime for a DCLA. Most are rated for 3 years.


Alternate energy is great to impose on others, as long as you don't
have to put up with the inconvenience of it yourself.

Done right, it's almost invisible rather than inconvenient.

If you know how, please share it. Most of my industrial battery
experience was tending to the needs of Lithiums.

Many solar owners I've talked with spray off their panels (in the cool
of the morning) and check/fill batteries twice a year. Others spend
time optimizing the spit out of them, so it depends on the mindset.
I thought BMSes did all the hard work on lithiums. According to Kim
on LoveTesla and Richard on fullychargedshow (YT), the Powerwalls are
plug and forget.

--
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results.
-- Sir Winston Churchill

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 24 Feb 2018 09:26:14 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


I ordered the Alpicool C20 for $239. It's small and light enough to
use in the car, big enough to hold 6 days of breakfast, lunch and
supper. Hopefully it can run all night on the jumpstarter type
sealed
battery pack I've been using with an inefficient thermoelectric
cooler
in the car.

Yeeouch on the price.

It's in the midrange for mini and compact refrigerators. I asked about
Ali because the C20 is the largest Amazon offers.
An unpowered, you-add-ice Yeti cooler of the same capacity costs $200.

Aren't those jumpstarters a 1.3Ah battery
coupled with a capacitor? I mounted a 48w (Sears/China watts;
actual
draw 27w) on a 12v 1.3Ah battery and it's a helluva flashlight. One
of these days, I'll have to test the lifetime. It makes a great
worklight.

This one holds two 12V 18Ah AGMs.
https://www.amazon.com/Century-BPIP-...ews/B00004TZKU

Maybe the combination can serve as a fridge with UPS, as long as the
jumpstarter's charger can keep up without overcharging the battery.
That's easy to test with my datalogging setup.

Let me know the startup and running current draws when you received
it. Very curious here. I've never seen a 12/24vdc compressor.

Sorry, the HF 99857 is "Not available for shipment to CA and OR."

That's extremely funny, considering the import point is Long Beach,
CA. I wonder what inherent evil they house to require them to be
warded from the Republik of Kalifornia and mostly-red Blue state of
Oregon.

https://info.orrsafety.com/blog/new-...nuary-1st-2017

Are you still allowed to have fire or sharp-edged rocks?

The SLI31MDC I bought around 2007 or 2008 to run a winch is
noticeably
weakening.

That's an amazing lifetime for a DCLA. Most are rated for 3 years.

Because they will die if left uncharged that long. The auto stores
here try to recharge their stock after 18 months, or unload them at a
good discount. Unfortunately they never have what I can use.

Alternate energy is great to impose on others, as long as you
don't
have to put up with the inconvenience of it yourself.

Done right, it's almost invisible rather than inconvenient.

If you know how, please share it. Most of my industrial battery
experience was tending to the needs of Lithiums.

Many solar owners I've talked with spray off their panels (in the
cool
of the morning) and check/fill batteries twice a year. Others spend
time optimizing the spit out of them, so it depends on the mindset.
I thought BMSes did all the hard work on lithiums. According to Kim
on LoveTesla and Richard on fullychargedshow (YT), the Powerwalls
are
plug and forget.

Plug and ignore, because they are maintenance-proof.
I saw the BMS data logs from some field-return Lithium packs show as
much as 20% capacity loss in under a year.

-jsw

On Sat, 24 Feb 2018 14:25:22 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 24 Feb 2018 09:26:14 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


I ordered the Alpicool C20 for $239. It's small and light enough to
use in the car, big enough to hold 6 days of breakfast, lunch and
supper. Hopefully it can run all night on the jumpstarter type
sealed
battery pack I've been using with an inefficient thermoelectric
cooler
in the car.

Yeeouch on the price.

It's in the midrange for mini and compact refrigerators. I asked about
Ali because the C20 is the largest Amazon offers.
An unpowered, you-add-ice Yeti cooler of the same capacity costs $200.

Aren't those jumpstarters a 1.3Ah battery
coupled with a capacitor? I mounted a 48w (Sears/China watts;
actual
draw 27w) on a 12v 1.3Ah battery and it's a helluva flashlight. One
of these days, I'll have to test the lifetime. It makes a great
worklight.

This one holds two 12V 18Ah AGMs.
https://www.amazon.com/Century-BPIP-...ews/B00004TZKU

Amazing. Century seems to make pretty good items.


Maybe the combination can serve as a fridge with UPS, as long as the
jumpstarter's charger can keep up without overcharging the battery.
That's easy to test with my datalogging setup.

Let me know the startup and running current draws when you received
it. Very curious here. I've never seen a 12/24vdc compressor.

Sorry, the HF 99857 is "Not available for shipment to CA and OR."

That's extremely funny, considering the import point is Long Beach,
CA. I wonder what inherent evil they house to require them to be
warded from the Republik of Kalifornia and mostly-red Blue state of
Oregon.

https://info.orrsafety.com/blog/new-...nuary-1st-2017

Are you still allowed to have fire or sharp-edged rocks?

I don't think so. Also, we (like CA) give lowest in-state pricing to
known illegal aliens who wish to go to our colleges, and we register
everyone (on visas/expired visas/illegals) to register to vote, too.
God help us. We truly -have- to dump the Brown stain in Salem this
next term.


The SLI31MDC I bought around 2007 or 2008 to run a winch is
noticeably
weakening.

That's an amazing lifetime for a DCLA. Most are rated for 3 years.

Because they will die if left uncharged that long. The auto stores
here try to recharge their stock after 18 months, or unload them at a
good discount. Unfortunately they never have what I can use.

No, I meant that nearly every article or guide I've read--about using
marine deep cycle batteries for solar--says that their lifetime, being
charged daily, is usually only 3 years. Rolls-Surrette and Trojan are
good for about a decade. I'm not sure about the new RE-rated batts.


Alternate energy is great to impose on others, as long as you
don't
have to put up with the inconvenience of it yourself.

Done right, it's almost invisible rather than inconvenient.

If you know how, please share it. Most of my industrial battery
experience was tending to the needs of Lithiums.

Many solar owners I've talked with spray off their panels (in the
cool
of the morning) and check/fill batteries twice a year. Others spend
time optimizing the spit out of them, so it depends on the mindset.
I thought BMSes did all the hard work on lithiums. According to Kim
on LoveTesla and Richard on fullychargedshow (YT), the Powerwalls
are
plug and forget.

Plug and ignore, because they are maintenance-proof.

I was looking harder at the specs and pictures on the Tesla website
yesterday and discovered that Powerwalls have built-in inverters.


I saw the BMS data logs from some field-return Lithium packs show as
much as 20% capacity loss in under a year.

That's horrible! Tesla or Segway? What percentage of them? Same
formula as current lithium ions? LI or LIPO4 (which I've heard horror
stories about)?

--
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results.
-- Sir Winston Churchill

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 24 Feb 2018 14:25:22 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
. ..
On Sat, 24 Feb 2018 09:26:14 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:
...
The SLI31MDC I bought around 2007 or 2008 to run a winch is
noticeably weakening.

That's an amazing lifetime for a DCLA. Most are rated for 3
years.
...
No, I meant that nearly every article or guide I've read--about
using
marine deep cycle batteries for solar--says that their lifetime,
being
charged daily, is usually only 3 years. Rolls-Surrette and Trojan
are
good for about a decade. I'm not sure about the new RE-rated batts.

I picked the SLI31MDCs for economical backup use, as I don't consider
daily cycling to be practical here. I have to move the 100W Grape
panels several times a day to dodge tree shadows, even in winter, and
that's acceptable only for tests or during outages. We had another
close call with icing yesterday, light freezing drizzle.

I saw the BMS data logs from some field-return Lithium packs show as
much as 20% capacity loss in under a year.

That's horrible! Tesla or Segway? What percentage of them? Same
formula as current lithium ions? LI or LIPO4 (which I've heard
horror
stories about)?

That was at a company I don't think I've named here, that didn't make
consumer products. The batteries had sophisticated management systems
and were well designed to be very reliable, and mostly they were. I
don't remember seeing any problems with Segway batteries other than
old age and have no experience with Tesla.

I've never seen a Lithium reach the 17 year life of my truck's
battery, though I have some laptop packs that came close. I'm still
using about half of the Ray-O-Vac Renewal rechargeable alkalines I
bought in the 1990s.

Some Xantrex inverters have a load sense function that idles them to
reduce battery drain when they aren't needed, like late at night when
the fridge is off and there are no other loads. I needed a larger
freezer compartment more than a second pure sine inverter.
https://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/f...print/true.cfm
"The datasheet shows 14.4W (about 1.2A) no load current, but this is
in the "load sense" mode, which doesn't provide any power for things
like the microwave clock, and other very small loads. In order for
these things to work, "load sense" needs to be turned off. With "load
sense" turned off, this inverter draws more like 60W (5A) with no, or
little load."

That's worse than the APC1400's no-load 40W.

-jsw

On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 09:05:48 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 24 Feb 2018 14:25:22 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 24 Feb 2018 09:26:14 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:
...
The SLI31MDC I bought around 2007 or 2008 to run a winch is
noticeably weakening.

That's an amazing lifetime for a DCLA. Most are rated for 3
years.
...
No, I meant that nearly every article or guide I've read--about
using
marine deep cycle batteries for solar--says that their lifetime,
being
charged daily, is usually only 3 years. Rolls-Surrette and Trojan
are
good for about a decade. I'm not sure about the new RE-rated batts.

I picked the SLI31MDCs for economical backup use, as I don't consider
daily cycling to be practical here. I have to move the 100W Grape
panels several times a day to dodge tree shadows, even in winter, and
that's acceptable only for tests or during outages. We had another
close call with icing yesterday, light freezing drizzle.

I saw the BMS data logs from some field-return Lithium packs show as
much as 20% capacity loss in under a year.

That's horrible! Tesla or Segway? What percentage of them? Same
formula as current lithium ions? LI or LIPO4 (which I've heard
horror
stories about)?

That was at a company I don't think I've named here, that didn't make
consumer products. The batteries had sophisticated management systems
and were well designed to be very reliable, and mostly they were. I
don't remember seeing any problems with Segway batteries other than
old age and have no experience with Tesla.

OK.


I've never seen a Lithium reach the 17 year life of my truck's
battery, though I have some laptop packs that came close. I'm still
using about half of the Ray-O-Vac Renewal rechargeable alkalines I
bought in the 1990s.

I was amazed at my ten years on the Tundra battery, so you should be
in awe of the 17 years. The battery, charging system, and user were
all in sync, a very unusual occurrence.


Some Xantrex inverters have a load sense function that idles them to
reduce battery drain when they aren't needed, like late at night when
the fridge is off and there are no other loads.

Probably some sort of sleep mode for the CPU, eh? Nice.


I needed a larger
freezer compartment more than a second pure sine inverter.

I hear that. When I upgrade from the 2kw HF mod sine, it could be to
one of these Taiwanese jobs: https://is.gd/n4nRNd 5kva 4000w 48V
230v Solar inverter off grid 80A MPPT solar LCD remote controller.
and add at least 3kw more panels.

Or, when I'm rich and famous, hang a couple Powerwalls on 10kw of
panels and call it good.


https://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/f...print/true.cfm

They mention the drawbacks of inverters, and in addition to LED bulbs
of all shapes, I've been buying a few 12v items, like soldering iron,
coffee cup immersion heaters, massive 160w car heaters , etc.
Here are some others I'm finding:
https://is.gd/RnBMEr hot water kettle
https://is.gd/W1TVhu BB switch
Still laughing at the last one.


"The datasheet shows 14.4W (about 1.2A) no load current, but this is
in the "load sense" mode, which doesn't provide any power for things
like the microwave clock, and other very small loads. In order for
these things to work, "load sense" needs to be turned off. With "load
sense" turned off, this inverter draws more like 60W (5A) with no, or
little load."

That's worse than the APC1400's no-load 40W.

A bit. You could buy a stable of panels and batteries for the price
Xantrex wants for their stuff, too.

--
Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds
are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her
tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the
existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of
the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 09:05:48 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


I was amazed at my ten years on the Tundra battery, so you should be
in awe of the 17 years. The battery, charging system, and user were
all in sync, a very unusual occurrence.

As batteries age they may require more than the normal vehicle
charging voltage.
http://shop.pkys.com/Battery-Equalization_ep_44.html

I turn up my LM350 charger until the current reads 0.5 - 1 Amp, being
careful not to go too high and damage any electronics. Usually 15V is
enough for a road vehicle battery that still has enough capacity to
start, the U1R in my garden tractor which gets less use sometimes
needs 17V.

After removing the vent caps I put clear packaging tape over the
openings to control acid spatter. I can still see the electrolyte
level and how much they are bubbling, or if one weak cell isn't when
all the others are.

When the current falls below 1% of the Amp-hour capacity at =14.0V I
consider the charging complete. Those numbers vary somewhat among
manufacturers.

I've been given "dead" batteries that an automatic charger could no
longer charge, but which recovered well and lasted several years when
charged once at higher voltage. They weren't completely cured, they
still needed a somewhat higher charging voltage each time, and monthly
attention to prevent or recover from the high resistance condition
called sulfation.

I think this forced current, voltage-adaptive charging is the secret
to long battery life.


I needed a larger
freezer compartment more than a second pure sine inverter.

I hear that. When I upgrade from the 2kw HF mod sine, it could be
to
one of these Taiwanese jobs: https://is.gd/n4nRNd 5kva 4000w 48V
230v Solar inverter off grid 80A MPPT solar LCD remote controller.
and add at least 3kw more panels.

Or, when I'm rich and famous, hang a couple Powerwalls on 10kw of
panels and call it good.

I run a generator when I need a lot of power for a short time, like at
meals. If not for the fridge's AC motor and 12A starting surge I could
live with a 300W MSW inverter. The genny has a folding doghouse made
from fireproof acoustic ceiling panels to quiet it and support
corrugated roofing panels in wet weather. I should probably upgrade it
to a more hurricane- and blizzard-proof model.
-jsw

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
news

As batteries age they may require more than the normal vehicle
charging voltage....

Here is a good explanation:
http://support.rollsbattery.com/supp...n-instructions
" Eventually, the sulfate will cause a resistance to charge and a
"false high voltage" reading will occur. The "false high voltage" is
measured by the charge controller, which further lowers the charging
current to maintain the voltage set point. This further increases the
undercharge condition."

"6. Once the specific gravity begins to rise, the bank voltage will
most likely drop, or the charging current will increase."

I've seen this on a battery that required 17V to initially force 50mA
of current. As the battery recovered and its voltage fell below 15V
the current rose to the limit of the LM350. It didn't harm my circuit
but it needs to be considered.

-jsw

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 24 Feb 2018 09:26:14 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


Let me know the startup and running current draws when you received
it. Very curious here. I've never seen a 12/24vdc compressor.


The DC compressors are German. Just search for
"Gleichstrom-Verdichter".








http://files.danfoss.com/TechnicalIn..._pk100c802.pdf

On Tue, 27 Feb 2018 16:52:41 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 09:05:48 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


I was amazed at my ten years on the Tundra battery, so you should be
in awe of the 17 years. The battery, charging system, and user were
all in sync, a very unusual occurrence.

As batteries age they may require more than the normal vehicle
charging voltage.
http://shop.pkys.com/Battery-Equalization_ep_44.html

The better solar controllers have both an auto and manually programmed
EQ switch. What bothers me is that the default with the switch on
auto is 2hrs of EQ every 2 days. Seems a bit too frequent, doesn't
it? That's from the Midnite Classic 150. 96A (@12v), 150v max PV,
MPPT, 12-72v battery bank.


I turn up my LM350 charger until the current reads 0.5 - 1 Amp, being
careful not to go too high and damage any electronics. Usually 15V is
enough for a road vehicle battery that still has enough capacity to
start, the U1R in my garden tractor which gets less use sometimes
needs 17V.

Low and slow amperage. No reason to upgrade to an LM338?


After removing the vent caps I put clear packaging tape over the
openings to control acid spatter. I can still see the electrolyte
level and how much they are bubbling, or if one weak cell isn't when
all the others are.

Good tip.


When the current falls below 1% of the Amp-hour capacity at =14.0V I
consider the charging complete. Those numbers vary somewhat among
manufacturers.

How often do you check it?


I've been given "dead" batteries that an automatic charger could no
longer charge, but which recovered well and lasted several years when
charged once at higher voltage. They weren't completely cured, they
still needed a somewhat higher charging voltage each time, and monthly
attention to prevent or recover from the high resistance condition
called sulfation.

I think this forced current, voltage-adaptive charging is the secret
to long battery life.

Interesting. (Saving this post.)


I needed a larger
freezer compartment more than a second pure sine inverter.

I hear that. When I upgrade from the 2kw HF mod sine, it could be
to
one of these Taiwanese jobs: https://is.gd/n4nRNd 5kva 4000w 48V
230v Solar inverter off grid 80A MPPT solar LCD remote controller.
and add at least 3kw more panels.

Or, when I'm rich and famous, hang a couple Powerwalls on 10kw of
panels and call it good.

I run a generator when I need a lot of power for a short time, like at
meals. If not for the fridge's AC motor and 12A starting surge I could
live with a 300W MSW inverter. The genny has a folding doghouse made
from fireproof acoustic ceiling panels to quiet it and support

It's amazing how much sound comes from the engine itself, rather than
from the exhaust, and baffles reduce both significantly.


corrugated roofing panels in wet weather. I should probably upgrade it
to a more hurricane- and blizzard-proof model.

Indeed. Maybe go subterranean in a hillside with drain and a flat
roof to muffle sound and defeat wind/snow?

--
Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds
are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her
tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the
existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of
the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 27 Feb 2018 16:52:41 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
. ..
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 09:05:48 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


I was amazed at my ten years on the Tundra battery, so you should
be
in awe of the 17 years. The battery, charging system, and user
were
all in sync, a very unusual occurrence.

As batteries age they may require more than the normal vehicle
charging voltage.
http://shop.pkys.com/Battery-Equalization_ep_44.html

The better solar controllers have both an auto and manually
programmed
EQ switch. What bothers me is that the default with the switch on
auto is 2hrs of EQ every 2 days. Seems a bit too frequent, doesn't
it? That's from the Midnite Classic 150. 96A (@12v), 150v max PV,
MPPT, 12-72v battery bank.

I set my P20L solar controller to limit at the float voltage and never
equalize. If the house batteries need it I'll take them outdoors and
use a variable voltage charger. SLI31s are the largest batteries I can
carry up and down stairs with one hand, the other free for the
handrail or doorknob.

I turn up my LM350 charger until the current reads 0.5 - 1 Amp,
being
careful not to go too high and damage any electronics. Usually 15V
is
enough for a road vehicle battery that still has enough capacity to
start, the U1R in my garden tractor which gets less use sometimes
needs 17V.

Low and slow amperage. No reason to upgrade to an LM338?

I think the order of LM338s I received was counterfeit. The limiting
item is the 30V/3A current meter, which has much better voltage and
current resolution than the 30V/10A model. I also use an LM317 that
limits at 1.5A, and that is enough for the 105A-h SLI31s and
everything smaller.

When the current falls below 1% of the Amp-hour capacity at =14.0V
I
consider the charging complete. Those numbers vary somewhat among
manufacturers.

How often do you check it?

A battery could be left on that topping-off setting for days because
the current is low.

I think this forced current, voltage-adaptive charging is the secret
to long battery life.

Interesting. (Saving this post.)

I run a generator when I need a lot of power for a short time,...

It's amazing how much sound comes from the engine itself, rather
than
from the exhaust, and baffles reduce both significantly.

Fiberglass pipe insulation over the muffler outlet barely changed the
sound. The acoustic tile box should be enough to conceal it from
thieves driving by. I can't hear it from the street if a car is within
1/4 mile.

corrugated roofing panels in wet weather. I should probably upgrade
it
to a more hurricane- and blizzard-proof model.

Indeed. Maybe go subterranean in a hillside with drain and a flat
roof to muffle sound and defeat wind/snow?

I have a rock drill and a hillside in the right place, but not a
blasting licence to cut in to it. This year's summer project is
digging some exploratory holes and trenches.

-jsw

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 24 Feb 2018 09:26:14 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


I ordered the Alpicool C20 for $239.

Let me know the startup and running current draws when you received
it. Very curious here. I've never seen a 12/24vdc compressor.

The compressor draws about 30W, 2.2A at 14VDC. With the compressor off
the controls use less than 1W.

I cooled it to -20C and then connected a DC power meter and ran it 61
minutes (to shutoff), using 1.172 Amp-hours at 13.8V, or 16.1
Watt-hours, in my 56F basement. At that rate a 12V 105A-h battery
should last 2-3 days.

The cold plate is behind one wall of the food compartment, without a
circulating fan. I'll have to experiment to find the right packing
arrangement and temperature setting for frozen food. -20C is its
lowest.

-jsw

On Wed, 28 Feb 2018 15:35:45 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 24 Feb 2018 09:26:14 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


Let me know the startup and running current draws when you received
it. Very curious here. I've never seen a 12/24vdc compressor.


The DC compressors are German. Just search for
"Gleichstrom-Verdichter".
http://files.danfoss.com/TechnicalIn..._pk100c802.pdf

Cool. I saw a used (probably abused) unit on Ebay for $200 with $50
shipping, and new ones in the $500+ range. LOL

--
Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds
are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her
tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the
existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of
the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.
-- Thomas Jefferson

On Thu, 1 Mar 2018 13:43:49 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 27 Feb 2018 16:52:41 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 09:05:48 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


I was amazed at my ten years on the Tundra battery, so you should
be
in awe of the 17 years. The battery, charging system, and user
were
all in sync, a very unusual occurrence.

As batteries age they may require more than the normal vehicle
charging voltage.
http://shop.pkys.com/Battery-Equalization_ep_44.html

The better solar controllers have both an auto and manually
programmed
EQ switch. What bothers me is that the default with the switch on
auto is 2hrs of EQ every 2 days. Seems a bit too frequent, doesn't
it? That's from the Midnite Classic 150. 96A (@12v), 150v max PV,
MPPT, 12-72v battery bank.

I set my P20L solar controller to limit at the float voltage and never
equalize. If the house batteries need it I'll take them outdoors and
use a variable voltage charger. SLI31s are the largest batteries I can
carry up and down stairs with one hand, the other free for the
handrail or doorknob.

Could weight be considered a negative in the LA chart of features?


I turn up my LM350 charger until the current reads 0.5 - 1 Amp,
being
careful not to go too high and damage any electronics. Usually 15V
is
enough for a road vehicle battery that still has enough capacity to
start, the U1R in my garden tractor which gets less use sometimes
needs 17V.

Low and slow amperage. No reason to upgrade to an LM338?

I think the order of LM338s I received was counterfeit.

So the cheap Chinese semiconductors are no good, or what? Why did you
think they were counterfit? Low output?
I haven't had the lid off my bench supply, a 0-30v, 0-5A current-
limiting Chinese model, but I wonder what chip they use.


The limiting item is the 30V/3A current meter, which has much better
voltage and current resolution than the 30V/10A model. I also use an
LM317 that limits at 1.5A, and that is enough for the 105A-h SLI31s
and everything smaller.

When you say "slow charge", you mean it, don't you?


When the current falls below 1% of the Amp-hour capacity at =14.0V
I
consider the charging complete. Those numbers vary somewhat among
manufacturers.

How often do you check it?

A battery could be left on that topping-off setting for days because
the current is low.

"float"?


I think this forced current, voltage-adaptive charging is the secret
to long battery life.

Interesting. (Saving this post.)

I run a generator when I need a lot of power for a short time,...

It's amazing how much sound comes from the engine itself, rather
than
from the exhaust, and baffles reduce both significantly.

Fiberglass pipe insulation over the muffler outlet barely changed the
sound. The acoustic tile box should be enough to conceal it from
thieves driving by. I can't hear it from the street if a car is within
1/4 mile.

Yabbut, the bad guys have impeccable hearing and sense of smell.
sigh


corrugated roofing panels in wet weather. I should probably upgrade
it
to a more hurricane- and blizzard-proof model.

Indeed. Maybe go subterranean in a hillside with drain and a flat
roof to muffle sound and defeat wind/snow?

I have a rock drill and a hillside in the right place, but not a
blasting licence to cut in to it. This year's summer project is
digging some exploratory holes and trenches.

Oh, boo! That could have been =fun=.

--
Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds
are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her
tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the
existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of
the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 1 Mar 2018 13:43:49 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

...SLI31s are the largest batteries I can
carry up and down stairs with one hand, the other free for the
handrail or doorknob.

Could weight be considered a negative in the LA chart of features?

Only if I can't carry it upstairs. They rarely move.

I turn up my LM350 charger until the current reads 0.5 - 1 Amp,
being
careful not to go too high and damage any electronics. Usually 15V
is
enough for a road vehicle battery that still has enough capacity
to
start, the U1R in my garden tractor which gets less use sometimes
needs 17V.

Low and slow amperage. No reason to upgrade to an LM338?
I think the order of LM338s I received was counterfeit.
So the cheap Chinese semiconductors are no good, or what? Why did
you
think they were counterfit? Low output?

The printing matched Internet warnings, and one burned out too easily.
The vendor refunded my money without any argument.

The limiting item is the 30V/3A current meter, which has much better
voltage and current resolution than the 30V/10A model. I also use an
LM317 that limits at 1.5A, and that is enough for the 105A-h SLI31s
and everything smaller.

When you say "slow charge", you mean it, don't you?

Replacing a month's self discharge doesn't take long. I can charge at
25A if necessary, or borrow a neighbor's 50A wheeled charger.

A battery could be left on that topping-off setting for days because
the current is low.

"float"?

A somwhat higher voltage. Most charger setting recommendations only
specify voltage. Inexpensive Volt+Amp meters like this now make
current monitoring practical, so I use parameters from battery data
sheets that include current values for charger designers. They allow
higher voltage if the current and/or charging time is limited.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/DC-0-30V-0-...-/321772149729

...The acoustic tile box should be enough to conceal it from
thieves driving by. I can't hear it from the street if a car is
within
1/4 mile.

Yabbut, the bad guys have impeccable hearing and sense of smell.
sigh

Other people' generators are louder.

I've never owned a chest-type freezer before and have to learn how to
use it, like how much air space to leave, when/how to defrost and not
letting things get stuck. I do have a Fluke thermocouple meter to
measure temperatures around the compartment.

-jsw

On Fri, 2 Mar 2018 18:57:20 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 1 Mar 2018 13:43:49 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

...SLI31s are the largest batteries I can
carry up and down stairs with one hand, the other free for the
handrail or doorknob.

Could weight be considered a negative in the LA chart of features?

Only if I can't carry it upstairs. They rarely move.

I turn up my LM350 charger until the current reads 0.5 - 1 Amp,
being
careful not to go too high and damage any electronics. Usually 15V
is
enough for a road vehicle battery that still has enough capacity
to
start, the U1R in my garden tractor which gets less use sometimes
needs 17V.

Low and slow amperage. No reason to upgrade to an LM338?
I think the order of LM338s I received was counterfeit.
So the cheap Chinese semiconductors are no good, or what? Why did
you
think they were counterfit? Low output?

The printing matched Internet warnings, and one burned out too easily.
The vendor refunded my money without any argument.

I bought some LM317s from China a while back. I'll go look for
warnings on them, too.


The limiting item is the 30V/3A current meter, which has much better
voltage and current resolution than the 30V/10A model. I also use an
LM317 that limits at 1.5A, and that is enough for the 105A-h SLI31s
and everything smaller.

When you say "slow charge", you mean it, don't you?

Replacing a month's self discharge doesn't take long. I can charge at
25A if necessary, or borrow a neighbor's 50A wheeled charger.

A battery could be left on that topping-off setting for days because
the current is low.

"float"?

A somwhat higher voltage. Most charger setting recommendations only
specify voltage. Inexpensive Volt+Amp meters like this now make
current monitoring practical, so I use parameters from battery data
sheets that include current values for charger designers. They allow
higher voltage if the current and/or charging time is limited.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/DC-0-30V-0-...-/321772149729

...The acoustic tile box should be enough to conceal it from
thieves driving by. I can't hear it from the street if a car is
within
1/4 mile.

Yabbut, the bad guys have impeccable hearing and sense of smell.
sigh

Other people' generators are louder.

That only means yours will be the last to be stolen. Criminals are
nothing if not persistent when they sense a gold mine. They work so
hard to avoid work, I swear.


I've never owned a chest-type freezer before and have to learn how to
use it, like how much air space to leave, when/how to defrost and not
letting things get stuck. I do have a Fluke thermocouple meter to
measure temperatures around the compartment.

That's good. I read that Danfoss catalog and was impressed at how
much info they crammed in there. Wow!

When I read "isobutane", I was fascinated and had to find out what
other refrigerants they were using now. R600 is nButane and R290 is
propane, used by two of the compressors they make.
ASHRAE refrigerant properties link within first message he
https://www.researchgate.net/post/What_is_the_difference_between_R134a_and_R600a_Can _the_domestic_refrigerator_which_originally_used_R 600a_being_change_to_R134a
or https://is.gd/lpBUP3

--
Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds
are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her
tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the
existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of
the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 2 Mar 2018 18:57:20 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


"float"?

A somwhat higher voltage. Most charger setting recommendations only
specify voltage. Inexpensive Volt+Amp meters like this now make
current monitoring practical, so I use parameters from battery data
sheets that include current values for charger designers. They allow
higher voltage if the current and/or charging time is limited.

This is what I'm doing with home-made metered voltage regulators that
operate from solar panels.
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/a...a_power_supply

The LM350 and a 33.00V / 3.000A meter are a good match. The meter
reads to my LM350's 4.5A limit, at least briefly.
(Short URL; there are other vendors)
https://www.amazon.com/SMAKN-voltage.../dp/B00N9ME6TM

...The acoustic tile box should be enough to conceal it from
thieves driving by. I can't hear it from the street if a car is
within 1/4 mile.

Including the car they are in.


Yabbut, the bad guys have impeccable hearing and sense of smell.
sigh

Other people' generators are louder.

That only means yours will be the last to be stolen. Criminals are
nothing if not persistent when they sense a gold mine. They work so
hard to avoid work, I swear.

There are enough unstealable generators on concrete pads to blanket
the area with omnidirectional engine noise. I think I can run mine for
an hour or two at meal times and use the batteries between and
overnight. That plan is based on bad weather more than theft risk. In
good weather my 300W of solar panels may be enough.

A KAW on the Alpicool C20 predicts it using 0.4 KWH per day, for $2.20
a month as a -18C .freezer.

It ran 2:00 hours on a Whistler 'Mighty' Lithium jumpstarter that I
can use for grocery shopping trips, on the deep cycle low battery
voltage cutoff setting. The car battery setting cuts off at a higher
voltage so the car will still be able to start.

I've never owned a chest-type freezer before and have to learn how
to
use it, like how much air space to leave, when/how to defrost and
not
letting things get stuck. I do have a Fluke thermocouple meter to
measure temperatures around the compartment.

That's good. I read that Danfoss catalog and was impressed at how
much info they crammed in there. Wow!

I think the compressor may be a copy, it has an Alpicool label and the
schematic is different. The blue metal-cased wattmeter recorded peak
startup currents around 4~5A.

So far I'm happy with it as long as it doesn't break. The car has a
12V outlet in the back and tie-down eyes.to keep cargo from sliding,
which the motor cover grills might not stand up to very well. The
cover was dinged when I received it. The C20 seems more suited to the
'burbs than the boonies.

-jsw

On Sat, 3 Mar 2018 08:57:00 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

...The acoustic tile box should be enough to conceal it from
thieves driving by. I can't hear it from the street if a car is
within 1/4 mile.

Including the car they are in.

The driver may let off the thieves, and I have seen non-running, unlit
cars drive past my house at night in the past. Pop the trash bag in
the garbage can and then hear tire noise drifting by. Hmmm...


Yabbut, the bad guys have impeccable hearing and sense of smell.
sigh

Other people' generators are louder.

That only means yours will be the last to be stolen. Criminals are
nothing if not persistent when they sense a gold mine. They work so
hard to avoid work, I swear.

There are enough unstealable generators on concrete pads to blanket
the area with omnidirectional engine noise. I think I can run mine for
an hour or two at meal times and use the batteries between and
overnight. That plan is based on bad weather more than theft risk. In
good weather my 300W of solar panels may be enough.

Yeah, that's good.


A KAW on the Alpicool C20 predicts it using 0.4 KWH per day, for $2.20
a month as a -18C .freezer.

Not bad at all, but that's a pretty tiny box, only 0.7 c/f.


It ran 2:00 hours on a Whistler 'Mighty' Lithium jumpstarter that I
can use for grocery shopping trips, on the deep cycle low battery
voltage cutoff setting. The car battery setting cuts off at a higher
voltage so the car will still be able to start.

I've never owned a chest-type freezer before and have to learn how
to
use it, like how much air space to leave, when/how to defrost and
not
letting things get stuck.

That's the pits. When I buy family packs of meat, I always try to bag
each item separately and freeze them so they don't stick together.
Otherwise, it =all= has to thaw to separate them.


I do have a Fluke thermocouple meter to
measure temperatures around the compartment.

That's good. I read that Danfoss catalog and was impressed at how
much info they crammed in there. Wow!

I think the compressor may be a copy, it has an Alpicool label and the
schematic is different. The blue metal-cased wattmeter recorded peak
startup currents around 4~5A.

Pray for good cooler/comp lifetime. Running watts w/ w/o comp?


So far I'm happy with it as long as it doesn't break. The car has a
12V outlet in the back and tie-down eyes.to keep cargo from sliding,
which the motor cover grills might not stand up to very well. The
cover was dinged when I received it. The C20 seems more suited to the
'burbs than the boonies.

Bad packing or bad handling before boxing? G'luck with it.

--
Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds
are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her
tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the
existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of
the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 3 Mar 2018 08:57:00 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


A KAW on the Alpicool C20 predicts it using 0.4 KWH per day, for
$2.20
a month as a -18C .freezer.

Not bad at all, but that's a pretty tiny box, only 0.7 c/f.

That it is, which is why I asked about using AliExpress to order a
larger version than Amazon offers, and made a model to experiment
with. I think the 6-7 days of food it holds plus the same in the
fridge is enough. Time will tell.

Now that this one has run a while the evaporator tubes show as two
lines of frost all the way around near the upper edge, so they do cool
all four walls, and it's resting on the insulating foamcore footprint
template from my model of it. I happened to have a wire grid the right
size to raise the food slightly off the bottom and let cold air
underneath.

The area of the bottom is about twice that of a Coleman Oscar. I was
satisfied with them for long trips because they fit in the rear
passenger footwells where they are within reach without stopping. One
needs ice, the other has a thermoelectric "cooler" lid. The C20 will
freeze ice packs for the Oscar.

I've never owned a chest-type freezer before and have to learn how
to
use it, like how much air space to leave, when/how to defrost and
not
letting things get stuck.

That's the pits. When I buy family packs of meat, I always try to
bag
each item separately and freeze them so they don't stick together.
Otherwise, it =all= has to thaw to separate them.

Thanks, I'll try that.

Pray for good cooler/comp lifetime.

I bought the small fridge second-hand in the 1980's so its doom could
be near.

Running watts w/ w/o comp?

30-35W in Eco mode, 1 Watt at idle. On the high setting it pulled
45-50W.

-jsw

On Sat, 3 Mar 2018 15:37:28 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 3 Mar 2018 08:57:00 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


A KAW on the Alpicool C20 predicts it using 0.4 KWH per day, for
$2.20
a month as a -18C .freezer.

Not bad at all, but that's a pretty tiny box, only 0.7 c/f.

That it is, which is why I asked about using AliExpress to order a
larger version than Amazon offers, and made a model to experiment
with. I think the 6-7 days of food it holds plus the same in the
fridge is enough. Time will tell.

Yup.


Now that this one has run a while the evaporator tubes show as two
lines of frost all the way around near the upper edge, so they do cool
all four walls, and it's resting on the insulating foamcore footprint
template from my model of it. I happened to have a wire grid the right
size to raise the food slightly off the bottom and let cold air
underneath.

Good deal with the grid. If there were a flaw in the insulation, a
piece of meat resting on the bottom could rot at that point and not be
noticed until it was too late. I'd love to tour the plant where those
are made.


The area of the bottom is about twice that of a Coleman Oscar. I was
satisfied with them for long trips because they fit in the rear
passenger footwells where they are within reach without stopping. One
needs ice, the other has a thermoelectric "cooler" lid. The C20 will
freeze ice packs for the Oscar.

There ya go.


I've never owned a chest-type freezer before and have to learn how
to
use it, like how much air space to leave, when/how to defrost and
not
letting things get stuck.

That's the pits. When I buy family packs of meat, I always try to
bag
each item separately and freeze them so they don't stick together.
Otherwise, it =all= has to thaw to separate them.

Thanks, I'll try that.

Pray for good cooler/comp lifetime.

I bought the small fridge second-hand in the 1980's so its doom could
be near.

Knock on wood.


Running watts w/ w/o comp?

30-35W in Eco mode, 1 Watt at idle. On the high setting it pulled
45-50W.

That's amazingly little power draw. How cool will it run on Eco with
the t-stat low?

--
Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds
are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her
tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the
existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of
the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 3 Mar 2018 15:37:28 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

...I happened to have a wire grid the right
size to raise the food slightly off the bottom and let cold air
underneath.

Good deal with the grid. If there were a flaw in the insulation, a
piece of meat resting on the bottom could rot at that point and not
be
noticed until it was too late.

I had noticed that food on the bottom of my 28F fridge wasn't quite
frozen, so I bought a 2-for-$1 pack of wire racks and folded one to
cover the bottom, with bubble wrap sandwiched inside. The thin
30-gauge thermocouple is very informative.

I'd love to tour the plant where those
are made.

My Sprint 3G and 4G are down today and this dialup is too slow to find
the photos I saw earlier of the Foshan Alpicool factory.

I bought the small fridge second-hand in the 1980's so its doom
could
be near.
Knock on wood.

The loud squeaking when it started and stopped turned out to be from
the electric skillet on top of it.

Running watts w/ w/o comp?

30-35W in Eco mode, 1 Watt at idle. On the high setting it pulled
45-50W.

That's amazingly little power draw. How cool will it run on Eco
with
the t-stat low?

The lowest setting is -20C. I set it at -18C, the Euro standard, which
is 0F. The thermocouple reads 5F ~ 10F at various places. It cycles on
for 2-1/2 minutes, off for 5-1/2, at 60F room temperature. This summer
I'll find out how well it likes roasting in a hot car, if it lasts
that long.

My oldest, weakest SLI31 is powering it right now, recharged from the
100W roof array.

This morning I took it grocery shopping, powered by a Lithium
jumpstarter in the shopping cart and the rear 12V outlet in the car.
Five days of breakfast, lunch and supper fit in snugly. It's light and
narrow enough to carry with one arm so I can open doors with the
other.

-jsw

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
news
"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...

I'd love to tour the plant where those
are made.

My Sprint 3G and 4G are down today and this dialup is too slow to
find the photos I saw earlier of the Foshan Alpicool factory.


Sprint problems:
http://downdetector.com/status/sprint

https://alpicool.en.alibaba.com/comp...6c3e1c69fJeBcy

On Mon, 5 Mar 2018 14:30:11 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 3 Mar 2018 15:37:28 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

...I happened to have a wire grid the right
size to raise the food slightly off the bottom and let cold air
underneath.

Good deal with the grid. If there were a flaw in the insulation, a
piece of meat resting on the bottom could rot at that point and not
be
noticed until it was too late.

I had noticed that food on the bottom of my 28F fridge wasn't quite
frozen, so I bought a 2-for-$1 pack of wire racks and folded one to
cover the bottom, with bubble wrap sandwiched inside. The thin
30-gauge thermocouple is very informative.

Great value, those racks.


I'd love to tour the plant where those
are made.

My Sprint 3G and 4G are down today and this dialup is too slow to find
the photos I saw earlier of the Foshan Alpicool factory.

I'll have to look. I have whopping 5mbps DSL. Hmm, found a couple on
Google, but not actual assy pics.


I bought the small fridge second-hand in the 1980's so its doom
could
be near.
Knock on wood.

The loud squeaking when it started and stopped turned out to be from
the electric skillet on top of it.

Oops. Fun to find, though, huh?


Running watts w/ w/o comp?

30-35W in Eco mode, 1 Watt at idle. On the high setting it pulled
45-50W.

That's amazingly little power draw. How cool will it run on Eco
with
the t-stat low?

The lowest setting is -20C. I set it at -18C, the Euro standard, which
is 0F. The thermocouple reads 5F ~ 10F at various places. It cycles on
for 2-1/2 minutes, off for 5-1/2, at 60F room temperature. This summer
I'll find out how well it likes roasting in a hot car, if it lasts
that long.

G'luck!


My oldest, weakest SLI31 is powering it right now, recharged from the
100W roof array.

Ex-battery life?


This morning I took it grocery shopping, powered by a Lithium
jumpstarter in the shopping cart and the rear 12V outlet in the car.
Five days of breakfast, lunch and supper fit in snugly. It's light and
narrow enough to carry with one arm so I can open doors with the
other.

I can just see the nightly Gnu Hamster news channel "Jim Wilkins was
arrested today during an attempt to smuggle food out of grocery. The
local bomb squad was called in to explode an unknown 'device'. Wilkins
was thought to be attempting to cool the device with the frozen food
so it wouldn't prematurely detonate." ducking

--
Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds
are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her
tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the
existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of
the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 5 Mar 2018 14:30:11 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:
...
This morning I took it grocery shopping, powered by a Lithium
jumpstarter in the shopping cart and the rear 12V outlet in the car.
Five days of breakfast, lunch and supper fit in snugly. It's light
and
narrow enough to carry with one arm so I can open doors with the
other.

I can just see the nightly Gnu Hamster news channel "Jim Wilkins was
arrested today during an attempt to smuggle food out of grocery. The
local bomb squad was called in to explode an unknown 'device'.
Wilkins
was thought to be attempting to cool the device with the frozen food
so it wouldn't prematurely detonate." ducking

Habanitro sauce?

The clerk asked me where she could buy one.

I took the freezer in to see how much I could stuff into it, as I
hadn't jammed in the more compressible empty boxes as tightly as
possible. Usually I put cold food in soft-side insulated cooler bags
in the shopping basket. They've told me I am the only customer who
does even that much to keep food from thawing.

We are in the middle of a major snowstorm, over a foot of wet sticky
snow that bent down the tree branches, though we didn't lose power.
New Jersey (Ed) got twice as much.

I had the fridge and freezer on UPS power overnight. The DIY UPS for
the DC-input freezer, a Radio Shack 13.8V 19A power supply charging a
battery to 13.5V through a diode, ran at the rate of only $2.20 a
month according to a KAWez. That PS reads 0.0W on the KAW without a
load, 6W float-charging the battery and 36W with the compressor on.

The PS overloaded and shut off when I tried to charge a battery
directly with it. The series Schottky let it charge a battery
discharged to 12.02V. The low resistance I put in series wasn't
needed, but it might be with a more deeply discharged battery. I want
this thing fully automatic in case the power returns in the middle of
the night.

-jsw

On Thu, 8 Mar 2018 08:16:06 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 5 Mar 2018 14:30:11 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:
...
This morning I took it grocery shopping, powered by a Lithium
jumpstarter in the shopping cart and the rear 12V outlet in the car.
Five days of breakfast, lunch and supper fit in snugly. It's light
and
narrow enough to carry with one arm so I can open doors with the
other.

I can just see the nightly Gnu Hamster news channel "Jim Wilkins was
arrested today during an attempt to smuggle food out of grocery. The
local bomb squad was called in to explode an unknown 'device'.
Wilkins
was thought to be attempting to cool the device with the frozen food
so it wouldn't prematurely detonate." ducking

Habanitro sauce?

The clerk asked me where she could buy one.

I took the freezer in to see how much I could stuff into it, as I
hadn't jammed in the more compressible empty boxes as tightly as
possible. Usually I put cold food in soft-side insulated cooler bags
in the shopping basket. They've told me I am the only customer who
does even that much to keep food from thawing.

We are in the middle of a major snowstorm, over a foot of wet sticky
snow that bent down the tree branches, though we didn't lose power.
New Jersey (Ed) got twice as much.

Over two feet north and west of us, but I'm close enough to the coast
(6 miles to Raritan Bay) that we got only about ten inches here. There
are lots of power lines down but, again, not here.

And the snow blower started on the first pull, so I'm a happy camper.
d8-)

--
Ed Huntress


I had the fridge and freezer on UPS power overnight. The DIY UPS for
the DC-input freezer, a Radio Shack 13.8V 19A power supply charging a
battery to 13.5V through a diode, ran at the rate of only $2.20 a
month according to a KAWez. That PS reads 0.0W on the KAW without a
load, 6W float-charging the battery and 36W with the compressor on.

The PS overloaded and shut off when I tried to charge a battery
directly with it. The series Schottky let it charge a battery
discharged to 12.02V. The low resistance I put in series wasn't
needed, but it might be with a more deeply discharged battery. I want
this thing fully automatic in case the power returns in the middle of
the night.

-jsw

On Thu, 08 Mar 2018 08:55:36 -0500, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Thu, 8 Mar 2018 08:16:06 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
. ..
On Mon, 5 Mar 2018 14:30:11 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:
...
This morning I took it grocery shopping, powered by a Lithium
jumpstarter in the shopping cart and the rear 12V outlet in the car.
Five days of breakfast, lunch and supper fit in snugly. It's light
and
narrow enough to carry with one arm so I can open doors with the
other.

I can just see the nightly Gnu Hamster news channel "Jim Wilkins was
arrested today during an attempt to smuggle food out of grocery. The
local bomb squad was called in to explode an unknown 'device'.
Wilkins
was thought to be attempting to cool the device with the frozen food
so it wouldn't prematurely detonate." ducking

Habanitro sauce?

The clerk asked me where she could buy one.

I took the freezer in to see how much I could stuff into it, as I
hadn't jammed in the more compressible empty boxes as tightly as
possible. Usually I put cold food in soft-side insulated cooler bags
in the shopping basket. They've told me I am the only customer who
does even that much to keep food from thawing.

We are in the middle of a major snowstorm, over a foot of wet sticky
snow that bent down the tree branches, though we didn't lose power.
New Jersey (Ed) got twice as much.

Over two feet north and west of us, but I'm close enough to the coast
(6 miles to Raritan Bay) that we got only about ten inches here. There
are lots of power lines down but, again, not here.

And the snow blower started on the first pull, so I'm a happy camper.
d8-)
Just over an inch on the ground here in the classic Central Ontario
Snow Belt, after the warmest (by 2 degrees) Feb on record, where we
set numerous record lows early in the month, and several record highs
late in the month.

If all the rain we got had come as snow we'd still be digging our way
out.

On Thu, 08 Mar 2018 11:31:16 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Thu, 08 Mar 2018 08:55:36 -0500, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Thu, 8 Mar 2018 08:16:06 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 5 Mar 2018 14:30:11 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:
...
This morning I took it grocery shopping, powered by a Lithium
jumpstarter in the shopping cart and the rear 12V outlet in the car.
Five days of breakfast, lunch and supper fit in snugly. It's light
and
narrow enough to carry with one arm so I can open doors with the
other.

I can just see the nightly Gnu Hamster news channel "Jim Wilkins was
arrested today during an attempt to smuggle food out of grocery. The
local bomb squad was called in to explode an unknown 'device'.
Wilkins
was thought to be attempting to cool the device with the frozen food
so it wouldn't prematurely detonate." ducking

Habanitro sauce?

The clerk asked me where she could buy one.

I took the freezer in to see how much I could stuff into it, as I
hadn't jammed in the more compressible empty boxes as tightly as
possible. Usually I put cold food in soft-side insulated cooler bags
in the shopping basket. They've told me I am the only customer who
does even that much to keep food from thawing.

We are in the middle of a major snowstorm, over a foot of wet sticky
snow that bent down the tree branches, though we didn't lose power.
New Jersey (Ed) got twice as much.

Over two feet north and west of us, but I'm close enough to the coast
(6 miles to Raritan Bay) that we got only about ten inches here. There
are lots of power lines down but, again, not here.

And the snow blower started on the first pull, so I'm a happy camper.
d8-)
Just over an inch on the ground here in the classic Central Ontario
Snow Belt, after the warmest (by 2 degrees) Feb on record, where we
set numerous record lows early in the month, and several record highs
late in the month.

If all the rain we got had come as snow we'd still be digging our way
out.

We haven't had much of our usual cold Canadian air here, either. The
weathermen said that the lack of our usual cold air mass pushing down
from Canada made the path of our nor'easter wobbly and uncertain. They
usually have a pretty good handle on where the air masses will
collide, and thus, they can predict snow lines more accurately.

This time the sucker just moved up the coast unhindered, and then
headed out to sea -- actually, up to Cape Cod and Maine.

So we had wildly different snowfall amounts 20 miles in any direction.

BTW, a "nor'easter" is just a storm that travels up the coast from the
Southeastern US, sometimes from Florida, following the path of
hurricanes that take the same route. They can be worse than hurricanes
here. They have a tight cyclonic airflow and the flow is strongest
when the eye is positioned such that we feel the wind coming from the
northeast -- thus the name. One of them blew half the shingles off my
house 30 years ago or so.

--
Ed Huntress

On Thu, 08 Mar 2018 08:55:36 -0500
Ed Huntress wrote:

snip
Over two feet north and west of us, but I'm close enough to the coast
(6 miles to Raritan Bay) that we got only about ten inches here. There
are lots of power lines down but, again, not here.

And the snow blower started on the first pull, so I'm a happy camper.
d8-)

It was in the 50's a week ago. Cold, snow again but just an inch or two
the past few days. We'll keep passing it along to your way ;-)

This article just ran in the paper. Kind of interesting when you have a
minute or two:

"Epic salvage effort saved 230 new Chryslers from U.P. shipwreck" (Nov
1926)

http://www.mlive.com/news/index.ssf/...ort_saved.html

Don't think it would be handled quite the same way nowadays...

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b

On Thu, 8 Mar 2018 14:37:13 -0400, Leon Fisk
wrote:

On Thu, 08 Mar 2018 08:55:36 -0500
Ed Huntress wrote:

snip
Over two feet north and west of us, but I'm close enough to the coast
(6 miles to Raritan Bay) that we got only about ten inches here. There
are lots of power lines down but, again, not here.

And the snow blower started on the first pull, so I'm a happy camper.
d8-)

It was in the 50's a week ago. Cold, snow again but just an inch or two
the past few days. We'll keep passing it along to your way ;-)

This article just ran in the paper. Kind of interesting when you have a
minute or two:

"Epic salvage effort saved 230 new Chryslers from U.P. shipwreck" (Nov
1926)

http://www.mlive.com/news/index.ssf/...ort_saved.html

Don't think it would be handled quite the same way nowadays...

That's quite a story. I used to hunt snowshoe rabbits near Copper
Harbor -- in January -- and I can imagine what that was like. Frozen
Hell is what is was like. g

--
Ed Huntress

On Thu, 08 Mar 2018 12:26:29 -0500, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Thu, 08 Mar 2018 11:31:16 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Thu, 08 Mar 2018 08:55:36 -0500, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Thu, 8 Mar 2018 08:16:06 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
m...
On Mon, 5 Mar 2018 14:30:11 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:
...
This morning I took it grocery shopping, powered by a Lithium
jumpstarter in the shopping cart and the rear 12V outlet in the car.
Five days of breakfast, lunch and supper fit in snugly. It's light
and
narrow enough to carry with one arm so I can open doors with the
other.

I can just see the nightly Gnu Hamster news channel "Jim Wilkins was
arrested today during an attempt to smuggle food out of grocery. The
local bomb squad was called in to explode an unknown 'device'.
Wilkins
was thought to be attempting to cool the device with the frozen food
so it wouldn't prematurely detonate." ducking

Habanitro sauce?

The clerk asked me where she could buy one.

I took the freezer in to see how much I could stuff into it, as I
hadn't jammed in the more compressible empty boxes as tightly as
possible. Usually I put cold food in soft-side insulated cooler bags
in the shopping basket. They've told me I am the only customer who
does even that much to keep food from thawing.

We are in the middle of a major snowstorm, over a foot of wet sticky
snow that bent down the tree branches, though we didn't lose power.
New Jersey (Ed) got twice as much.

Over two feet north and west of us, but I'm close enough to the coast
(6 miles to Raritan Bay) that we got only about ten inches here. There
are lots of power lines down but, again, not here.

And the snow blower started on the first pull, so I'm a happy camper.
d8-)
Just over an inch on the ground here in the classic Central Ontario
Snow Belt, after the warmest (by 2 degrees) Feb on record, where we
set numerous record lows early in the month, and several record highs
late in the month.

If all the rain we got had come as snow we'd still be digging our way
out.

We haven't had much of our usual cold Canadian air here, either. The
weathermen said that the lack of our usual cold air mass pushing down
from Canada made the path of our nor'easter wobbly and uncertain. They
usually have a pretty good handle on where the air masses will
collide, and thus, they can predict snow lines more accurately.

This time the sucker just moved up the coast unhindered, and then
headed out to sea -- actually, up to Cape Cod and Maine.

So we had wildly different snowfall amounts 20 miles in any direction.

BTW, a "nor'easter" is just a storm that travels up the coast from the
Southeastern US, sometimes from Florida, following the path of
hurricanes that take the same route. They can be worse than hurricanes
here. They have a tight cyclonic airflow and the flow is strongest
when the eye is positioned such that we feel the wind coming from the
northeast -- thus the name. One of them blew half the shingles off my
house 30 years ago or so.
The counterclockwize rotation around the low pressure causes the
north-east wind to suck moisture out of the atlantic and drop it on
the leading edge of the storm as the low travels north.

Hense the old saying "when the wind is from the east it is fit for
neither man nor beast"

Here in central ontario those easterlies drag the moisture out of
lake ontario and dump it on us when the lake isn't frozen. The
prevailing westerlies pick it up off Superior and Huron, dropping MOST
of it to the west uf us. Something has changed in the weather patterns
and Kitchener/Waterloo, Elmira, and Statford get a LOT less snow in
recent years - and where Elmira used to get significantly more than
waterloo (only 14km apart), both now get significantly less than areas
both to the east and west - almost like we are in the shadow of
something - - -

On Thu, 8 Mar 2018 08:16:06 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 5 Mar 2018 14:30:11 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:
...
This morning I took it grocery shopping, powered by a Lithium
jumpstarter in the shopping cart and the rear 12V outlet in the car.
Five days of breakfast, lunch and supper fit in snugly. It's light
and
narrow enough to carry with one arm so I can open doors with the
other.

I can just see the nightly Gnu Hamster news channel "Jim Wilkins was
arrested today during an attempt to smuggle food out of grocery. The
local bomb squad was called in to explode an unknown 'device'.
Wilkins
was thought to be attempting to cool the device with the frozen food
so it wouldn't prematurely detonate." ducking

Habanitro sauce?

The clerk asked me where she could buy one.

I took the freezer in to see how much I could stuff into it, as I
hadn't jammed in the more compressible empty boxes as tightly as
possible. Usually I put cold food in soft-side insulated cooler bags
in the shopping basket. They've told me I am the only customer who
does even that much to keep food from thawing.

I do that, too. Wally World had them for a couple bucks a handful of
years ago, so during the summer, I fill in-store and refill after the
self-checkout.

Milk is extremely susceptible to early death without being kept at 40
or below, so I use them for all cold and frozen foods. In the winter,
the truck is cool enough not to need it for the (5 minutes, 3.5mi)
drive home.


We are in the middle of a major snowstorm, over a foot of wet sticky
snow that bent down the tree branches, though we didn't lose power.
New Jersey (Ed) got twice as much.

Did I just hear a "yet?" at the end of that first sentence?
Another storm is hammering Seattle right now, given the yellow
features on the radar screen on Wunderground, the last one over ID
right now.

We've had drippy rain all day, and there is a 45mph wind advisory up.
The real rain will get here tomorrow, it appears.


I had the fridge and freezer on UPS power overnight. The DIY UPS for
the DC-input freezer, a Radio Shack 13.8V 19A power supply charging a
battery to 13.5V through a diode, ran at the rate of only $2.20 a
month according to a KAWez. That PS reads 0.0W on the KAW without a
load, 6W float-charging the battery and 36W with the compressor on.

Not bad at all.


The PS overloaded and shut off when I tried to charge a battery
directly with it. The series Schottky let it charge a battery
discharged to 12.02V. The low resistance I put in series wasn't
needed, but it might be with a more deeply discharged battery. I want
this thing fully automatic in case the power returns in the middle of
the night.

Indeed. You don't want dueling PSes on your hands.

--
Silence is more musical than any song.
-- Christina Rossetti

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 8 Mar 2018 08:16:06 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:
...
The PS overloaded and shut off when I tried to charge a battery
directly with it. The series Schottky let it charge a battery
discharged to 12.02V. The low resistance I put in series wasn't
needed, but it might be with a more deeply discharged battery. I
want
this thing fully automatic in case the power returns in the middle
of
the night.

Indeed. You don't want dueling PSes on your hands.

The intent is for them to cooperate, with the higher of the two
outputs, PS or solar, charging the battery. The series diode keeps
higher voltage from backfeeding into the 13.8V PS and solar
controllers are built to accept battery voltage on their output when
their input fails.

I tested the concept with an old taper charger to which I added a
Variac to adjust the output, on a hazy day when the solar couldn't
quite keep up. The soft voltage/current knee of the taper charger
allowed the battery to drop more than the well regulated switcher
does. Perhaps today will bring enough sun to test the circuit before
more snow arrives.

The Alpicool freezer current appears to average a bit below 1 Amp,
though the power meters I have now are sized for the 50A max of the
APC1400 and don't measure low currents accurately. The blue meter like
you have can be off by 0.2A. This is on order to hopefully make more
accurate Amp-hour measurements on lower powered devices and small
batteries such as Lithium 18650s.
https://www.amazon.com/Yeeco-Voltmet...ct_top?ie=UTF8

-jsw

On Thu, 8 Mar 2018 14:37:13 -0400, Leon Fisk
wrote:

On Thu, 08 Mar 2018 08:55:36 -0500
Ed Huntress wrote:

snip
Over two feet north and west of us, but I'm close enough to the coast
(6 miles to Raritan Bay) that we got only about ten inches here. There
are lots of power lines down but, again, not here.

And the snow blower started on the first pull, so I'm a happy camper.
d8-)

It was in the 50's a week ago. Cold, snow again but just an inch or two
the past few days. We'll keep passing it along to your way ;-)

This article just ran in the paper. Kind of interesting when you have a
minute or two:

"Epic salvage effort saved 230 new Chryslers from U.P. shipwreck" (Nov
1926)

http://www.mlive.com/news/index.ssf/...ort_saved.html

Don't think it would be handled quite the same way nowadays...

Nope, not the same at all. Collectors would be heading the effort,
out there saving all the priceless old '26es this time.

--
Silence is more musical than any song.
-- Christina Rossetti

On Fri, 9 Mar 2018 08:19:07 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 8 Mar 2018 08:16:06 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:
...
The PS overloaded and shut off when I tried to charge a battery
directly with it. The series Schottky let it charge a battery
discharged to 12.02V. The low resistance I put in series wasn't
needed, but it might be with a more deeply discharged battery. I
want
this thing fully automatic in case the power returns in the middle
of
the night.

Indeed. You don't want dueling PSes on your hands.

The intent is for them to cooperate, with the higher of the two
outputs, PS or solar, charging the battery. The series diode keeps
higher voltage from backfeeding into the 13.8V PS and solar
controllers are built to accept battery voltage on their output when
their input fails.

How does this differ from the diodes attached to most solar panels
nowadays? You chose the exact schottky voltage you wanted?


I tested the concept with an old taper charger to which I added a
Variac to adjust the output, on a hazy day when the solar couldn't
quite keep up. The soft voltage/current knee of the taper charger
allowed the battery to drop more than the well regulated switcher
does. Perhaps today will bring enough sun to test the circuit before
more snow arrives.

Got preps? Somebody turned the storm cycle back on. Prolly that nasty
AGWK stuff, which means OMIGODWEREALLGONNADIE!


The Alpicool freezer current appears to average a bit below 1 Amp,
though the power meters I have now are sized for the 50A max of the
APC1400 and don't measure low currents accurately. The blue meter like
you have can be off by 0.2A. This is on order to hopefully make more
accurate Amp-hour measurements on lower powered devices and small
batteries such as Lithium 18650s.
https://www.amazon.com/Yeeco-Voltmet...ct_top?ie=UTF8

Added to my list. This is one of the few times that Amazon ($18.56)
vendors beat Ebay vendors ($23.35). The extra precision is needed for
the little guys, I see.

--
Silence is more musical than any song.
-- Christina Rossetti

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 9 Mar 2018 08:19:07 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:
Indeed. You don't want dueling PSes on your hands.

The intent is for them to cooperate, with the higher of the two
outputs, PS or solar, charging the battery. The series diode keeps
higher voltage from backfeeding into the 13.8V PS and solar
controllers are built to accept battery voltage on their output when
their input fails.

How does this differ from the diodes attached to most solar panels
nowadays? You chose the exact schottky voltage you wanted?

https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/tex...hing-circuits/

Figure (d) shows a diode switch that passes the higher of battery or
power supply voltage to the load while isolating them from each other.
The diode in series with the lower voltage source is reverse biased.

I have the battery directly connected to the load and use diodes to
select the higher of power supply or solar controller voltage. The
power supply provides 13.5V through its diode, the solar controller
limits itself at 13.9V if there's enough sun. The solar controller's
series diode is internal, to keep battery voltage out of the panels
and wiring. That diode shorted in my HF controller.

On a partly cloudy day like today the solar controller supplies
whatever current the panels can produce and the power supply provides
the rest of the load's demand. I can watch the power supply's input
wattage rise and fall on a Kill-A-Watt as the sun dims and brightens.
Sometimes the KAW Watt display goes to 0.0 and the system is purely
solar powered, although the power supply is still connected and turned
on.

When neither the solar panels nor the grid can provide power it
reverts to the battery, all automatically.

-jsw