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Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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#1
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Lifting Stuff
Well I finally got rid of the 'portable' gantry I built 30 years ago; it just got to the point where I'm not physically able to break it down and move it around very safely any more. I built a couple of smaller widgets that I can put on my little Kubota tractor. The first one is a real kluge and works well enough to move trailers around the meadow but the second, a jib crane, is a bit of a stab in the dark and I'd appreciate comments on the design. It's not intended to pull a big engine out of a truck or anything like that, but it should be capable of lifting the steam engine or boiler out of my boat. https://www.flickr.com/photos/steamb...57655170041438
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#2
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Lifting Stuff
"SteamboatEd Haas" wrote in message
... Well I finally got rid of the 'portable' gantry I built 30 years ago; it just got to the point where I'm not physically able to break it down and move it around very safely any more. I built a couple of smaller widgets that I can put on my little Kubota tractor. The first one is a real kluge and works well enough to move trailers around the meadow but the second, a jib crane, is a bit of a stab in the dark and I'd appreciate comments on the design. It's not intended to pull a big engine out of a truck or anything like that, but it should be capable of lifting the steam engine or boiler out of my boat. https://www.flickr.com/photos/steamb...57655170041438 Your portable gantry could probably lift things much heavier than your Kubota tractor can. |
#3
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Lifting Stuff
On Tue, 28 Jul 2015 10:19:59 -0700 (PDT), SteamboatEd Haas
wrote: https://www.flickr.com/photos/steamb...57655170041438 Nice..but a bit..light duty isnt it? Gunner |
#4
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Lifting Stuff
On 7/28/2015 12:40 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Tue, 28 Jul 2015 10:19:59 -0700 (PDT), SteamboatEd Haas wrote: https://www.flickr.com/photos/steamb...57655170041438 Nice..but a bit..light duty isnt it? Gunner I'm wondering about lateral stability. It might want to fold to the left or right. Mikek |
#5
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Lifting Stuff
On 07/28/2015 12:19 PM, SteamboatEd Haas wrote:
.... ... the second, a jib crane, is a bit of a stab in the dark and I'd appreciate comments on the design. It's not intended to pull a big engine out of a truck or anything like that, but it should be capable of lifting the steam engine or boiler out of my boat. https://www.flickr.com/photos/steamb...57655170041438 Just guessing, but a first shot approximation... From the size of the tractor, and giving benefit that the 3-pt is Cat 1, not Cat 0, I'm guesstimating by measuring from the pictures that the arm is 1", 1/8"T tubing and roughly 16" long from the gusset to the lift point. If so, from the following calculator, the bending stress approach 30k psi for a load of 200 lb. That is, of course, for a fully-supported end and has no compensation for the point loading effect of the narrow gusset at the center of the tubing as the load concentrator. One thing I'd suggest would be to add outside plates there so there isn't just the one point in the middle but support at the edges of the tubing instead. And, of course, if the length is longer it's directly proportional if the tubing dimensions are heavier/lighter, they have a effect by the fourth power of the difference between inner/outer dimensions from the geometric moment of inertia of hollow tube. I didn't try to estimate the lifting moment on the tractor to the rear axle to see how much weight you need minimum to hold it down but the seat is directly over the rear axle so your weight isn't helping much at all in that regards. That may be enough capacity, altho as another mentioned without any lateral bracing whatever I'd worry quite a lot about it collapsing sideways when it's subjected to some side loading from a bump or a slight tilt from vertical (owing to ground slope, perhaps). I also didn't do any calculation on the compression of the lower extension arm against buckling but I suspect it's better than the above (but that's purely speculative just based on the visuals). https://www.easycalculation.com/engineering/mechanical/deflection-hollow-rectangular-beams.php It is cute, though; I've thought of doing something similar for the utility tractor here altho it's a fair amount larger (~30 hp green). -- |
#6
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Lifting Stuff
On 07/29/2015 9:51 AM, dpb wrote:
.... Just guessing, but a first shot approximation... From the size of the tractor, and giving benefit that the 3-pt is Cat 1, not Cat 0, I'm guesstimating by measuring from the pictures that the arm is 1", 1/8"T tubing and roughly 16" long from the gusset to the lift point. If so, from the following calculator, the bending stress approach 30k psi for a load of 200 lb. ... And, of course, that's static loading only; the real kicker on stuff for usage like this is the impact loads that are applied when the tractor hits a bump or the like; those can be several times the static loading and without any springs or other absorbing mechanism, it all has to be taken up by the "beef" of the structure. An example is the little 3-pt sprayer (55 gal) capacity...it was commercial from Schaben but didn't take but one or two summers over the ground around the feedlots and machinery parking areas before the bounce caused the boom arm folding connectors to crack as well as the 6" wide 1/8"T rolled main support under the tank started to tear. I added a 1-1/2" by 5/32T angle; it still wasn't enough to take more than another couple of years. I've got to beef it up again further this year and will at that point also find some heavy compression springs to set the tank on to relieve some of the impact load from being transmitted directly to the frame. While you'll never move stuff around with the hook like one covers ground at a steady pace while spraying, it's inevitable you _will_ find a hole or somesuch... -- |
#7
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On 07/29/2015 10:26 AM, dpb wrote:
.... An example is the little 3-pt sprayer (55 gal) capacity...it was commercial from Schaben but didn't take but one or two summers over the ground around the feedlots and machinery parking areas before the bounce caused the boom arm folding connectors to crack as well as the 6" wide 1/8"T rolled main support under the tank started to tear. I added a 1-1/2" by 5/32T angle; it still wasn't enough to take more than another couple of years. I've got to beef it up again further this year and will at that point also find some heavy compression springs to set the tank on to relieve some of the impact load from being transmitted directly to the frame. .... Only picture of the precise design could find quickly...it's small but you can see how they just rolled the platform sheet to make a square edge...that tore beginning between the two uprights holding the valve. http://kentuckyfarmequipment.com/CimarronPhotos/cimarron_cmmh55_sprayer.jpg Hadn't looked before but current seem to have been modified to use a (looks like perhaps 2-1/2"?) square beam between the two sideplates instead; much beefier... -- |
#8
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Lifting Stuff
"dpb" wrote in message ...
On 07/28/2015 12:19 PM, SteamboatEd Haas wrote: ... ... the second, a jib crane, is a bit of a stab in the dark and I'd appreciate comments on the design. It's not intended to pull a big engine out of a truck or anything like that, but it should be capable of lifting the steam engine or boiler out of my boat. https://www.flickr.com/photos/steamb...57655170041438 Just guessing, but a first shot approximation... From the size of the tractor, and giving benefit that the 3-pt is Cat 1, not Cat 0, I'm guesstimating by measuring from the pictures that the I am not sure of the exact size of the pictured tractor, but my rather small (33HP) 4wd John Deere has a Cat 2. A commercial farming buddy of mine looked at it one day and said it was the smallest cat 2 setup he had ever seen, but it was definitely cat 2. |
#9
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Lifting Stuff
On 07/30/2015 3:17 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
"dpb" wrote in message ... On 07/28/2015 12:19 PM, SteamboatEd Haas wrote: .... Just guessing, but a first shot approximation... From the size of the tractor, and giving benefit that the 3-pt is Cat 1, not Cat 0, I'm guesstimating by measuring from the pictures that the I am not sure of the exact size of the pictured tractor, but my rather small (33HP) 4wd John Deere has a Cat 2. A commercial farming buddy of mine looked at it one day and said it was the smallest cat 2 setup he had ever seen, but it was definitely cat 2. Cat 2 is 1-1/8" D lift pin is the definitive way to tell. (Cat 0 - 5/8" and Cat 1 - 7/8"). While those _could_ be, perhaps, just doesn't look like it and it would be more than just a little unusual on such a small tractor. That can't be but in the upper teens to low 20s on such a small chassis. I figured OP would be back and tell me where I was wrong altho I noticed today in rechecking the photos on the first page of his notebook it might be 1-1/4" X 1/8" tubing...if I get a little time this evening I'll maybe try to recheck the guesses... -- |
#10
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Lifting Stuff
On 07/30/2015 5:27 PM, dpb wrote:
On 07/30/2015 3:17 PM, Bob La Londe wrote: "dpb" wrote in message ... On 07/28/2015 12:19 PM, SteamboatEd Haas wrote: ... Just guessing, but a first shot approximation... From the size of the tractor, and giving benefit that the 3-pt is Cat 1, not Cat 0, I'm guesstimating by measuring from the pictures that the I am not sure of the exact size of the pictured tractor, but my rather small (33HP) 4wd John Deere has a Cat 2. A commercial farming buddy of mine looked at it one day and said it was the smallest cat 2 setup he had ever seen, but it was definitely cat 2. Cat 2 is 1-1/8" D lift pin is the definitive way to tell. (Cat 0 - 5/8" and Cat 1 - 7/8"). While those _could_ be, perhaps, just doesn't look like it and it would be more than just a little unusual on such a small tractor. That can't be but in the upper teens to low 20s on such a small chassis. .... The JD 955 here is about 30 HP, MFWD (it's so old I don't remember precisely) and is Cat 1. I don't know at what point Deere goes Cat 2 standard; I suppose it's probably possible to order a higher level than standard even on the utilities, or somebody could have swapped out pins or arms, even... The new "4 Family" run from 43 to 66 HP and are all Cat 1. OTOH, the 5E series starts at about 50 hp up and are Cat 2 so it also depends on the series. But, at 33 hp I think it's unusual for sure. -- |
#11
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Lifting Stuff
Interesting. My John Deer 4wd series 1 is a Cat 1. The pins that are
used to pick up with are maybe 7/8 and then there is a sleeve. Maybe it is 5/8 plus 1/8" making 7/8 tubing around the pin that is hard. I suspect the tubing is the consumable while the pin is the strength that pulls. I thought it were larger myself. I use 48" wide Power Tiller, 56" wide hog mower, 48" fine cut and 48" front end loader. The large hooks take the tubing diameter while the pin is the implement size. Handy tool that is for sure. When the grass gets waist high or more due to constant rain, the Deer just drives through and cuts. At our age, we use it to tote heavy boxes and materials around the property. Martin On 7/30/2015 5:47 PM, dpb wrote: On 07/30/2015 5:27 PM, dpb wrote: On 07/30/2015 3:17 PM, Bob La Londe wrote: "dpb" wrote in message ... On 07/28/2015 12:19 PM, SteamboatEd Haas wrote: ... Just guessing, but a first shot approximation... From the size of the tractor, and giving benefit that the 3-pt is Cat 1, not Cat 0, I'm guesstimating by measuring from the pictures that the I am not sure of the exact size of the pictured tractor, but my rather small (33HP) 4wd John Deere has a Cat 2. A commercial farming buddy of mine looked at it one day and said it was the smallest cat 2 setup he had ever seen, but it was definitely cat 2. Cat 2 is 1-1/8" D lift pin is the definitive way to tell. (Cat 0 - 5/8" and Cat 1 - 7/8"). While those _could_ be, perhaps, just doesn't look like it and it would be more than just a little unusual on such a small tractor. That can't be but in the upper teens to low 20s on such a small chassis. ... The JD 955 here is about 30 HP, MFWD (it's so old I don't remember precisely) and is Cat 1. I don't know at what point Deere goes Cat 2 standard; I suppose it's probably possible to order a higher level than standard even on the utilities, or somebody could have swapped out pins or arms, even... The new "4 Family" run from 43 to 66 HP and are all Cat 1. OTOH, the 5E series starts at about 50 hp up and are Cat 2 so it also depends on the series. But, at 33 hp I think it's unusual for sure. -- |
#12
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Lifting Stuff
On 07/30/2015 9:12 PM, Martin Eastburn wrote:
Interesting. My John Deer 4wd series 1 is a Cat 1. The pins that are used to pick up with are maybe 7/8 and then there is a sleeve. Maybe it is 5/8 plus 1/8" making 7/8 tubing around the pin that is hard. I suspect the tubing is the consumable while the pin is the strength that pulls. I thought it were larger myself. .... If you have a sleeve, the implement is then a Cat 0 with the sleeve to adapt to Cat 1; a "true" Cat 1 will have a 7/8" pin. The sleeve is simply an adapter. -- |
#13
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Lifting Stuff
On 07/30/2015 5:27 PM, dpb wrote:
On 07/30/2015 3:17 PM, Bob La Londe wrote: "dpb" wrote in message ... On 07/28/2015 12:19 PM, SteamboatEd Haas wrote: ... Just guessing, but a first shot approximation... From the size of the tractor, and giving benefit that the 3-pt is Cat 1, not Cat 0, I'm guesstimating by measuring from the pictures that the .... I figured OP would be back and tell me where I was wrong altho I noticed today in rechecking the photos on the first page of his notebook it might be 1-1/4" X 1/8" tubing...if I get a little time this evening I'll maybe try to recheck the guesses... I can't make any more definitive estimates than before but if it is 1-1/4" instead of 1", the same stress levels are at about 350 lb vs 200... -- |
#14
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Lifting Stuff
On 07/30/2015 9:12 PM, Martin Eastburn wrote:
Interesting. My John Deer[e] 4wd series 1 is a Cat 1. ... .... I use 48" wide Power Tiller, 56" wide hog mower, 48" fine cut and 48" front end loader. .... While I don't have a handy actual photo of our rig set up for the field, this is more like what we use 3-pt for... http://www.cornwallfoodandfarming.net/images/ks2-spring-in-the-field1bb.jpg -- |
#15
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Lifting Stuff
dpb wrote:
The new "4 Family" run from 43 to 66 HP and are all Cat 1. Urgs. -- "I'm a doctor, not a mechanic." Dr Leonard McCoy "I'm a mechanic, not a doctor." Volker Borchert |
#16
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Lifting Stuff
JD is putting pins that are hard. The shells they sell in the parts
room are for expansion of the pin size but take the nicks and sand crap when moving or jerking the load on something you snagged upon. The implements are a mixture of Deer and Frontier and both manuals say Cat 1. So does the website. So I think the sleeve is a consumable part. Long learned that a bunged up scratched pin might not slide through a hole unless ground down. While the Sleeve is swapped with another and away you go. Martin On 7/30/2015 11:35 PM, dpb wrote: On 07/30/2015 9:12 PM, Martin Eastburn wrote: Interesting. My John Deer 4wd series 1 is a Cat 1. The pins that are used to pick up with are maybe 7/8 and then there is a sleeve. Maybe it is 5/8 plus 1/8" making 7/8 tubing around the pin that is hard. I suspect the tubing is the consumable while the pin is the strength that pulls. I thought it were larger myself. ... If you have a sleeve, the implement is then a Cat 0 with the sleeve to adapt to Cat 1; a "true" Cat 1 will have a 7/8" pin. The sleeve is simply an adapter. -- |
#17
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Lifting Stuff
That is a taller larger large field unit than mine. A Row tractor.
http://www.deere.com/en_US/products/..._compact.page? Here is the stripped down version - missing the front end loader and the heavy mower on the rear. It could have a bucket on the back as well. I have the Heavy powered unit with more Hydraulics so I can add options easily as I have. I'm under 10 acres so I don't need a big one. Wish I had a 2_Series unit but didn't know at the time. It is much heaver and can really work. Martin On 7/31/2015 3:00 PM, dpb wrote: On 07/30/2015 9:12 PM, Martin Eastburn wrote: Interesting. My John Deer[e] 4wd series 1 is a Cat 1. ... ... I use 48" wide Power Tiller, 56" wide hog mower, 48" fine cut and 48" front end loader. ... While I don't have a handy actual photo of our rig set up for the field, this is more like what we use 3-pt for... http://www.cornwallfoodandfarming.net/images/ks2-spring-in-the-field1bb.jpg -- |
#18
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Lifting Stuff
On 07/31/2015 9:31 PM, Martin Eastburn wrote:
JD is putting pins that are hard. The shells they sell in the parts room are for expansion of the pin size but take the nicks and sand crap when moving or jerking the load on something you snagged upon. The implements are a mixture of Deer[e] and Frontier and both manuals say Cat 1. So does the website. So I think the sleeve is a consumable part. Long learned that a bunged up scratched pin might not slide through a hole unless ground down. While the Sleeve is swapped with another and away you go. .... Of course the pins are hard; if Frontier or some of the utility stuff is now coming with Cat 0 pins and a bushing that's something I've never seen...have similar setup on the utility here with a box blade, garden tiller, mower, post hole digger, sprayer, etc., etc., and they're all full-size 7/8" pins. It's all at least 10 yr old or older, however, so if somebody has come up with a clever idea, that's a possibility I suppose. I've never had any issue with any of 'em in all that time. For everything else except the above little utility stuff, everything has quick-hitch attachment anyway; one never need slide a pin thru (and you'd never manage with a 12-row planter or such on full-size equipment, anyway, it's simply too heavy to budge to do so). -- |
#19
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Lifting Stuff
On 07/31/2015 9:43 PM, Martin Eastburn wrote:
That is a taller larger large field unit than mine. A Row tractor. http://www.deere.com/en_US/products/..._compact.page? Here is the stripped down version - missing the front end loader and the heavy mower on the rear. It could have a bucket on the back as well. I have the Heavy powered unit with more Hydraulics so I can add options easily as I have. I'm under 10 acres so I don't need a big one. Wish I had a 2_Series unit but didn't know at the time. It is much heaver and can really work. We have 7 quarters (a "quarter" is one-fourth a section or 160A) and rent another 6 to farm a total of 13 quarters dryland mostly wheat and milo in far SW KS...that picture's similar to the smaller row crop at about 180 drawbar HP. It's still _very_ small compared to the larger operators with their 20+ corn planters and all, but they're not 3-pt setups. On acreage we're about average for the area in size but nothing at all compared to some that are 3-4X the size of operation but that's twice the size were when was growing up in the 60s and were probably in top third back then. -- |
#20
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On 07/30/2015 9:12 PM, Martin Eastburn wrote:
Interesting. My John Deer 4wd series 1 is a Cat 1. The pins that are used to pick up with are maybe 7/8 and then there is a sleeve. Maybe it is 5/8 plus 1/8" making 7/8 tubing around the pin that is hard. I suspect the tubing is the consumable while the pin is the strength that pulls. I thought it were larger myself. I use 48" wide Power Tiller, 56" wide hog mower, 48" fine cut and 48" front end loader. .... One last note...perhaps for the lighter stuff they have gone to bushings so the can be used with a Cat 0 tractor w/o replacing the pins; again if so I've never noticed. Not sure if the Deere dealer has anything that small in stock to look at; when I'm out next time I'll look around. Even as a kid I never could understand why Dad never would get a small utility for around the place; as noted, everything here I got with the utility after we came back to the farm after he passed 15 yr or so ago by now. The closest we had back then was an old (1930's vintage Caterpillar 22 (22 drawbar hp) left from the period when granddad had a bunch of them they used with a 3-row pull-type lister for all the row crops that had a stiff-frame bucket. It was too low to load a truck with but could move a little dirt or the like. Of course, being tracked it left a heckuva mess afterwards on the ground. Neighbors at the time had little Ford 8N that was just so cute and handy...later on (early 60s, had an Allis Chalmers D-17 that eventually bought a bucket for -- it was a nice loader tractor altho still just barely enough height to get over the side of a 2T grain truck side. For it he also eventually bought a 7-ft Fordson bush hog, but without a live PTO it was a real trick maneuvering it around close quarters without it driving you instead of vice versa...but that's what (along with a 15-ft solid shaft flail mower) is what he made do with and was what was here when we got back... I bought the JD 955 (had to go back to the Wichita area to find one; there's just almost no small utility stuff out here and what there is doesn't often come up for resale) and most of the attachments within a year or two after we came back...they happened to have a 6-ft belly finish mower that fit and a 66" tiller (Land Pride) at the time so took them along w/ the tractor. It already had the bucket as it was a tradein from a landscaping outfit; been pretty heavily abused cosmetically but has been solid mechanically for another 12-13 yr so was a good deal. Would like to have been a little larger but we needed to drag a bunch of dirt away from the house to regrade as over the years including the Dust Bowl of the '30s it had gotten to where the house was lower than the yard all around so nothing drained (on those rare occasions when it does actually rain here ) so I got the smaller for the clearance under the trees and around "stuff" in the yard to do that. It worked nicely with the tiller and 6-ft box blade to drag to a pile and then use the larger loader on the old JD 4440 to load the truck and haul. For the larger areas around the feedlots and machinery parking areas I also bought a new Rhino 15-ft batwing mower to use around the place and relegate the flail to pasture cleanup. It's much more maneuverable and does a cleaner job and can get close enough to fences and outbuildings that then the belly mower on the 955 can clean up pretty well. I'd like to find a 3-pt sickle sidebar to be able to slide under the cedar windbreaks and along the feedlot fences between posts but they're also very rare out here. I found a new one a few years after the move but it was back eastern part of the state and I was on way back to TN before we'd gotten the house there sold so didn't close the deal and when got back somebody else had taken it...didn't know that Deere had quit making 'em at the time and there were no more other than finding used... Anyway, I suppose that the difference is both age and that all the stuff here is a little larger on the pins used but I've never seen an actual pin boogered to the point it would be any problem to use so I still think it's a case of simply using a Cat 0 pin from the factory to make things universal w/o having to swap rather than that the sleeves are really considered a "consumable"--altho I'll grant one's a lot more likely to mung one of them up than the pin itself which sorta' makes them that... Anyway, "far too much information" and I needs to go get busy and I'll shut up and go away for the time being...altho I may try to post some actual pictures somewhere; this year things look pretty good as we've finally(!!!) had some decent rains after the previous five years of severe drought--although we're now getting to where we need another for the row crops (milo, primarily with some other feed sorghums) to make a crop they're going to have to have at least one more good rain. -- |
#21
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Lifting Stuff
On 08/01/2015 9:20 AM, dpb wrote:
.... One last note...perhaps for the lighter stuff they have gone to bushings so the[y] can be used with a Cat 0 tractor w/o replacing the pins; again if so I've never noticed. Not sure if the Deere dealer has anything that small in stock to look at; when I'm out next time I'll look around. .... Well, had to go out this AM for spare parts for combine to get ready for milo...hadn't driven down the equipment line for the small stuff before. Anyway, there were 3 or 4 Frontier 3-pt mowers and a blade or two and a few other odds 'n ends. Other than the one smallest mower (48") which did have Cat 0 pins, all the rest were Cat 1 lift pins. I'm still thinking that the previous surmise is correct based on that sample... -- |
#22
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Lifting Stuff
Since I'm a deer guy and never saw a Frontier product until I talked to
my sales guy and asked him the price on a xxx and delivery time... The Deer stuff is 1 1/8 heavy steel. While the other parts could be used on multiple tractor grades by changing bolt positions and maybe the Pin spacer. We once had 3 farms in Indiana but two generations ago they were swindled away from the family. My dad grew up on one of them worked all three and drove a team of 8 Morgans. AKA Hay Burners big time. My wife has an x300 deer - a robust factory made deer mower. The deers sold at Home Depot and places are made overseas. She got nose into a drainage ditch mowing and I had to lift up the front and she drove it out without front wheels. Backing up. She had run aground. Mine weighs more than a car and is handy. Just no use for large row stuff. The brothers over at the Tree service dealer - have Big Deers! They ship wheels on flatbeds with escorts! Then there is the Industrial Deer across town that has the big digging machines... The Farm tractor Deer dealer is in the next large town going North or another (same owner) West about 40-50 miles away. This is a Lumber / lumber product region. Power Poles and all. Martin On 8/1/2015 11:56 AM, dpb wrote: On 08/01/2015 9:20 AM, dpb wrote: ... One last note...perhaps for the lighter stuff they have gone to bushings so the[y] can be used with a Cat 0 tractor w/o replacing the pins; again if so I've never noticed. Not sure if the Deere dealer has anything that small in stock to look at; when I'm out next time I'll look around. ... Well, had to go out this AM for spare parts for combine to get ready for milo...hadn't driven down the equipment line for the small stuff before. Anyway, there were 3 or 4 Frontier 3-pt mowers and a blade or two and a few other odds 'n ends. Other than the one smallest mower (48") which did have Cat 0 pins, all the rest were Cat 1 lift pins. I'm still thinking that the previous surmise is correct based on that sample... -- |
#23
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Lifting Stuff
On 08/01/2015 10:27 PM, Martin Eastburn wrote:
Since I'm a deer guy and never saw a Frontier product until I talked to my sales guy and asked him the price on a xxx and delivery time... .... It seems to be Deere's "utility/suburb" brand--I don't know just when they introduced it but appears to be their answer for the smaller and "weekend farmer" market. I presume altho I have no data and there's no additional info readily available at the Deere site that it's all contracted stuff for resale. There's a wide variety of stuff now, some 5-600 different products listed. JD Green paint is dear (pun intended ) but red isn't far behind--we're down to only having a Deere dealership local; it's 60+ miles to the red one so it's just not convenient for parts to be so far for everything for production farming; hence virtually everything here is JD. When a kid, there were Farmall/International, Allis Chalmers, Case, Minneapolis-Moline all in town but consolidation took out some and the 80's farm contraction did to them what it did to the smaller operators as well... -- |
#24
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Lifting Stuff
On 08/01/2015 10:27 PM, Martin Eastburn wrote:
.... We once had 3 farms in Indiana but two generations ago they were swindled away from the family. My dad grew up on one of them worked all three and drove a team of 8 Morgans. AKA Hay Burners big time. Sorry to hear that...while but a blink in comparison to some of the areas further east, we reached the "Century Farm" mark last year; my grandfather with is brother bought the home quarter in 1914. There were at that time no improvements on the place and only 20 A had even been broken out of native sod. The original purchaser never planted a crop. Was fortunate to have arrived in that time frame; it was in a moist cycle (by W KS standards, anyway ) and in the '20s economic conditions were mostly favorable so by the Depression and Dust Bowl by dint of being both a good farmer and a capable business manager they had managed to have sufficient resources to hang on thru the 30's and Dust Bowl. We had another severe drought in the early 50's that I clearly recall that was a mini-dust bowl but as dry as though two periods were, the lowest annual accumulation we've recorded at the house since grandpa started keeping track in '15 was just two years ago in this current cycle of just barely over 7"; the lowest previous was about 10" in 1951. The lowest during the 30s was actually close to 14"; that it was so severe a result is a reflection on how much farming technique for this region has advanced since as developed equipment and methods more suited to the sandy soil and limited moisture. When broke this ground out, all they knew and had equipment for was what worked farther east in heavier soils and more rainfall. My grandfather used mules but other than one favorite that was a essentially a pet when I was very young, none were still around by the time I had any activity. Granddad had a registered milking shorthorn breeding cowherd as a secondary sideline but also by the time I reached teens they had fallen out of favor. He passed in '57 and Dad converted over to running stocker heifers on winter wheat and milo stubble over the winter and selling them off to the feeders in the spring while we farmed the summertime. We also built the small (500 head) feedlot at that point and would feed out some, numbers varying from year to year based on what guesstimated markets would be like and feed availabilty; it's still dryland W KS, after all! -- |
#25
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Lifting Stuff
On 08/02/2015 8:55 AM, dpb wrote:
.... The lowest during the 30s was actually close to 14"; that it was so severe a result is a reflection on how much farming technique for this region has advanced since as developed equipment and methods more suited to the sandy soil and limited moisture. When broke this ground out, all they knew and had equipment for was what worked farther east in heavier soils and more rainfall. .... That was a typo; the 14" was more nearly 12" but the other key missing ingredient that they weren't familiar with when they began farming out here was _THE WIND_!!! It just does _not_ blow like it does here back east, even the middle/eastern part of KS is nothing like the western third and the other areas of the high plains north and south along the eastern Rockies. It's a unique environment owing to the rain shield and the large expanse of flat unbroken ground devoid of any trees or other disrupting surface features... -- |
#26
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Lifting Stuff
My Granddad died in 21. His Dad, and his two brothers farms became
the estate. One farm in the 20's was loaned to Purdue as a test farm. Step 'granddad' lost all three farms in a hand of poker in Chicago, so it was said. My Great Uncle, a Doctor with a farm, lived in town passed the farm in a legal way to my Great Aunt in the 30's. (back then women and ownership was tricky). He had tenant farmers and now the young girl who used to come to visit Great Aunt Joyce owns the farm. At least one of the brothers places still exist. And the colors of tractors - Uncle Art had a large dairy farm co-op (had 13 kids that lived) and each married with a farm - They all worked and helped each other. As time would take their toll, each sold out to the large corp that took over the region. Dad and his two older sons were big into electronics not farming. Martin On 8/2/2015 9:57 AM, dpb wrote: On 08/02/2015 8:55 AM, dpb wrote: ... The lowest during the 30s was actually close to 14"; that it was so severe a result is a reflection on how much farming technique for this region has advanced since as developed equipment and methods more suited to the sandy soil and limited moisture. When broke this ground out, all they knew and had equipment for was what worked farther east in heavier soils and more rainfall. ... That was a typo; the 14" was more nearly 12" but the other key missing ingredient that they weren't familiar with when they began farming out here was _THE WIND_!!! It just does _not_ blow like it does here back east, even the middle/eastern part of KS is nothing like the western third and the other areas of the high plains north and south along the eastern Rockies. It's a unique environment owing to the rain shield and the large expanse of flat unbroken ground devoid of any trees or other disrupting surface features... -- |
#27
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Lifting Stuff
On 08/02/2015 9:07 PM, Martin Eastburn wrote:
.... ... Uncle Art had a large dairy farm co-op (had 13 kids that lived) and each married with a farm - They all worked and helped each other. As time would take their toll, each sold out to the large corp that took over the region. .... KS is one of the places that has laws against corporate farm ownership (other than closely-held family corp's) so that hasn't (at least yet) happened here...at some point I expect there will be court challenges and they'll have a difficult time keeping it in place, unfortunately. While there are quite large operations, they are all family-owned/operated still, and all the ones in the county and that I know in neighboring counties are continuing entities of the original homesteaders. It simply takes a larger operation to manage given current economics than years ago--if I weren't retired from a previous career before came back after Dad passed, it would be a marginal living on our acreage now that was (at least in good years) comfortable for folks. I've scaled back as the years pass as had Dad and run no cattle (which given current markets is great on the selling side but not so great on an operation such as ours which was a "buy and sell" annual one with the primary farming operation and no permanent pasture so that's just as well at the moment. There are quite a number of dairies in the area now that didn't used to be--they have moved out here from CA, AZ, etc., where they've been forced out by either city expansion or more often the extremely onerous environmental limitations placed on them by state or counties or even municipalities. Of course, the home county here in KS passed an ordinance some 30 yr ago now that prevented Seaboard from bringing in their hog operations; they instead are 40 mi away down in OK panhandle. We do have a large beef packing operation and a number of feeding operations plus one of which (27000 head capacity) a few miles east of us was sold last year and converted into "Heifer Source" a raising operation for milkers--it's Minnesota-owned and I understand most of them end up up in that neck of the woods after they're finished here... -- |
#28
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Lifting Stuff
On 08/01/2015 10:27 PM, Martin Eastburn wrote:
....[rearranged for sequencing to make narrative continuous]... On 8/1/2015 11:56 AM, dpb wrote: .... Well, had to go out this AM for spare parts for combine to get ready for milo...hadn't driven down the equipment line for the small stuff before. Anyway, there were 3 or 4 Frontier 3-pt mowers and a blade or two and a few other odds 'n ends. Other than the one smallest mower (48") which did have Cat 0 pins, all the rest were Cat 1 lift pins. I'm still thinking that the previous surmise is correct based on that sample... The Deer[e] stuff is 1 1/8 heavy steel. While the other parts could be used on multiple tractor grades by changing bolt positions and maybe the Pin spacer. .... Just a note (and particularly if you are having trouble munging up the sleeves so have to replace them)... If I had that type of gear and the only tractor on which I used it was Cat 1, I'd just replace the Cat 0 lift pins with Cat 1 and ditch the adapter sleeves entirely... Just a thought... -- |
#29
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Lifting Stuff
On Tuesday, July 28, 2015 at 5:56:02 PM UTC-7, amdx wrote:
On 7/28/2015 12:40 PM, Gunner Asch wrote: On Tue, 28 Jul 2015 10:19:59 -0700 (PDT), SteamboatEd Haas wrote: https://www.flickr.com/photos/steamb...57655170041438 Nice..but a bit..light duty isnt it? Gunner I'm wondering about lateral stability. It might want to fold to the left or right. Mikek I've worried about that a bit too so I plan to shim all the joints and to add gussetts as needed. Time will tell. And FWIW the heaviest load I plan to use it for is only about 200 lbs; beyond that I've always got the loader bucket and a pair of forks I can add. |
#30
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Lifting Stuff
On Wednesday, July 29, 2015 at 7:51:48 AM UTC-7, dpb wrote:
Just guessing, but a first shot approximation... From the size of the tractor, and giving benefit that the 3-pt is Cat 1, not Cat 0, I'm guesstimating by measuring from the pictures that the arm is 1", 1/8"T tubing and roughly 16" long from the gusset to the lift point. If so, from the following calculator, the bending stress approach 30k psi for a load of 200 lb. That is, of course, for a fully-supported end and has no compensation for the point loading effect of the narrow gusset at the center of the tubing as the load concentrator. One thing I'd suggest would be to add outside plates there so there isn't just the one point in the middle but support at the edges of the tubing instead. And, of course, if the length is longer it's directly proportional if the tubing dimensions are heavier/lighter, they have a effect by the fourth power of the difference between inner/outer dimensions from the geometric moment of inertia of hollow tube. I think it's somewhere between Cat 0 and Cat 1; something Kubota dreamed up.. The square tubing is 1-1/4 in. square and it's all 1/8" wall. The jib is 30 in from root to tip. The tee piece that supports the whole thing on the lower arms of the 3-point hitch is 2 in. square tube, also 1/8 in. wall. I didn't try to estimate the lifting moment on the tractor to the rear axle to see how much weight you need minimum to hold it down but the seat is directly over the rear axle so your weight isn't helping much at all in that regards. That may be enough capacity, altho as another mentioned without any lateral bracing whatever I'd worry quite a lot about it collapsing sideways when it's subjected to some side loading from a bump or a slight tilt from vertical (owing to ground slope, perhaps). I also didn't do any calculation on the compression of the lower extension arm against buckling but I suspect it's better than the above (but that's purely speculative just based on the visuals). https://www.easycalculation.com/engineering/mechanical/deflection-hollow-rectangular-beams.php It is cute, though; I've thought of doing something similar for the utility tractor here altho it's a fair amount larger (~30 hp green). -- |
#31
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Lifting Stuff
On 08/03/2015 2:00 PM, SteamboatEd Haas wrote:
On Tuesday, July 28, 2015 at 5:56:02 PM UTC-7, amdx wrote: .... I'm wondering about lateral stability. It might want to fold to the left or right. .... I've worried about that a bit too so I plan to shim all the joints and to add gussetts as needed. Time will tell. And FWIW the heaviest load I plan to use it for is only about 200 lbs; beyond that I've always got the loader bucket and a pair of forks I can add. So what is the actual tubing dimension--1 or 1.25"? Besides the previous idea of the gussets on the outside edge of the tubing instead besides in the center a tension rod on the sides similar but smaller in scale would be pretty effective. The gusset location that I could see would be for the upright at the crossbar; probably a sizable triangle plate on the front edge would work well and not interfere with the adjustment pins, etc., ... But, if it never gets out of plumb and is only 200-lb or less, it'll probably be just fine; it's always the "aw shXXX!!" moment that's the killer when something unwanted happens... -- |
#32
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Lifting Stuff
On Monday, August 3, 2015 at 12:09:39 PM UTC-7, dpb wrote:
On 08/03/2015 2:00 PM, SteamboatEd Haas wrote: On Tuesday, July 28, 2015 at 5:56:02 PM UTC-7, amdx wrote: ... I'm wondering about lateral stability. It might want to fold to the left or right. ... I've worried about that a bit too so I plan to shim all the joints and to add gussetts as needed. Time will tell. And FWIW the heaviest load I plan to use it for is only about 200 lbs; beyond that I've always got the loader bucket and a pair of forks I can add. So what is the actual tubing dimension--1 or 1.25"? --It's 1.25 with 1/8" wall. --And for those who wonder my tractor is a Kubota BX-22, 18hp. It came with a bucket and backhoe; I'm told the primary customers, aside from urban escapees like me, are cemetaries as the backhoe can dig just 6ft deep... ;-) --Sad to hear all the tales of how many of you lot lost your old family farms; we've managed to hang onto ours since 1849 and it's still going strong despite many changes. No more tomatos, hay and alfalfa or cattle; 25 years or so back we volunteered to be part of the UC Davis experiment to grow grapes and that was a godsend. If not for that leap I'd be slogging away in a machine shop full time, instead of part time for fun.. ;-) It is a little awkward now when we have a meeting: the family that started the farm many moons ago was fruitful and multiplied: we need two rows of chairs at the table! Besides the previous idea of the gussets on the outside edge of the tubing instead besides in the center a tension rod on the sides similar but smaller in scale would be pretty effective. The gusset location that I could see would be for the upright at the crossbar; probably a sizable triangle plate on the front edge would work well and not interfere with the adjustment pins, etc., ... But, if it never gets out of plumb and is only 200-lb or less, it'll probably be just fine; it's always the "aw shXXX!!" moment that's the killer when something unwanted happens... -- |
#33
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Lifting Stuff
On 08/03/2015 2:29 PM, SteamboatEd Haas wrote:
On Monday, August 3, 2015 at 12:09:39 PM UTC-7, dpb wrote: .... So what is the actual tubing dimension--1 or 1.25"? --It's 1.25 with 1/8" wall. --And for those who wonder my tractor is a Kubota BX-22, 18hp. It came with a bucket and backhoe; I'm told the primary customers, aside from urban escapees like me, are cemetaries as the backhoe can dig just 6ft deep.. ;-) .... OK, as noted the yield bending moment for the arm for that is at (very) roughly the 300 lb point so you've got some slack... -- |
#34
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Lifting Stuff
Good Idea, but after towing the mower around the place and into and over
places that might have been not in the way - bumps and limbs - I don't see any wear on the sleeves. They are dry and if sand flies through it keeps going. So far so good. Guess My job of Tera-plane the back yard is about to start. After building a 28x70 foot building on three times the area raised (7' in the back of the yard and normal height near the house - the number of sand trucks and cement trucks did a number on the back field. The Rotary will be used instead of a Dozer with laser. A little more work here and there. The front end loader will be in high use as well. Martin On 8/3/2015 9:52 AM, dpb wrote: On 08/01/2015 10:27 PM, Martin Eastburn wrote: ...[rearranged for sequencing to make narrative continuous]... On 8/1/2015 11:56 AM, dpb wrote: ... Well, had to go out this AM for spare parts for combine to get ready for milo...hadn't driven down the equipment line for the small stuff before. Anyway, there were 3 or 4 Frontier 3-pt mowers and a blade or two and a few other odds 'n ends. Other than the one smallest mower (48") which did have Cat 0 pins, all the rest were Cat 1 lift pins. I'm still thinking that the previous surmise is correct based on that sample... The Deer[e] stuff is 1 1/8 heavy steel. While the other parts could be used on multiple tractor grades by changing bolt positions and maybe the Pin spacer. ... Just a note (and particularly if you are having trouble munging up the sleeves so have to replace them)... If I had that type of gear and the only tractor on which I used it was Cat 1, I'd just replace the Cat 0 lift pins with Cat 1 and ditch the adapter sleeves entirely... Just a thought... -- |
#35
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Lifting Stuff
PS I did a few measurements on the 3-point hitch: the lower arms can pass a 1 in. bolt. The upper fixed point uses a 5/8 in. pin. Not sure of whether that makes it class 0 or class 1. I can mount a 48 in. mower but to do so I have to position the lower arms inside, rather than outside the mower attachment points so I have to reverse the mounting pins. No problem lifting it with the hydraulics tho and the PTO has run the mower just fine for a decade.
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#36
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Lifting Stuff
--Oh and I've made a minor refinement to the rig. I found that the chain would hop out of its box on the end of the jib every time I hit a bump so I made a little retaining clip thingy. Photo he https://www.flickr.com/photos/steamb...posted-public/
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#37
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Lifting Stuff
On 08/10/2015 2:50 AM, SteamboatEd Haas wrote:
PS I did a few measurements on the 3-point hitch: the lower arms can pass a 1 in. bolt. The upper fixed point uses a 5/8 in. pin. Not sure of whether that makes it class 0 or class 1. I can mount a 48 in. mower but to do so I have to position the lower arms inside, rather than outside the mower attachment points so I have to reverse the mounting pins. No problem lifting it with the hydraulics tho and the PTO has run the mower just fine for a decade. That is a non-standard rig as you surmised, per the ISO Standard (730-1, 1994) which contains the definitive definition for consistency, Cat 0 is 5/8" for both lift and link pins while Class 1 is 7/8" lift and 3/4" link pin. The 1" lift point opening doesn't match anything precisely; Cat 2 is 1-1/8" for the lift pin. The midpoint spacing for the lift arms is 20, 26, and 32", for Cat 0, 1, 2, respectively. -- |
#38
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Lifting Stuff
On Wednesday, August 26, 2015 at 2:57:32 PM UTC-4, SteamboatEd Haas wrote:
--Update: used the jib crane this past weekend and it worked just fine. As someone pointed out it could probably withstand more than the tractor's wimpy hydraulics could deliver. When lifting the boiler out of my boat I was able to get it to juuuust shy of the deck, so on a whim I had my pal push up on the boom and that made the difference: muscle power alone let the hydraulics complete the lift and get the boiler clear of the deck! Photos of the whole operation he https://www.flickr.com/photos/steamb...57646738530236 Thanks for the photos of the steam engine, very much enjoyed that. Is that a Stuart? G'luck PaulS |
#39
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Lifting Stuff
On Thursday, August 27, 2015 at 10:57:10 AM UTC-7, PCS wrote:
Thanks for the photos of the steam engine, very much enjoyed that. Is that a Stuart? --Yes it's the Stuart Swan, a double 5-A: 2-1/4 in. bore, 2 in. stroke, double acting, no compounding. |
#40
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Lifting Stuff
On Tuesday, July 28, 2015 at 5:56:02 PM UTC-7, amdx wrote:
On 7/28/2015 12:40 PM, Gunner Asch wrote: On Tue, 28 Jul 2015 10:19:59 -0700 (PDT), SteamboatEd Haas wrote: https://www.flickr.com/photos/steamb...57655170041438 Nice..but a bit..light duty isnt it? Gunner I'm wondering about lateral stability. It might want to fold to the left or right. Mikek Aye it concerns me too. I try not to lift stuff very high and I only move in low gear. |
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